The truth about Jehovah's Witnesses

[Hammock Parties]

This was posted over at the Mane. Very interesting. I'm adding my comments in the next post (some of this is BS).

http://www.freeminds.org/psych/broken.htm

Families Broken Apart by Jehovah's Witnesses: Can They Be Restored?

by Randall Watters

Jim and Cathy were happily married for 14 years. They have three children, Beth (12), Andrew (11) and Toni (9). Jim did not object when Cathy started having "Bible studies" in their home with the Jehovah's Witnesses. He thought they were just another Christian denomination. Three years later, she was divorcing him and seeking custody of the children. Cathy had become a Jehovah's Witness, and was determined that her children would be brought up in what she referred to as the "discipline and mental regulating of Jehovah," but her husband called it mind control.

Across the nation and rapidly increasing in other countries, families are being broken up by one partner's involvement in the Jehovah's Witnesses. In some cases the non-Witness seeks the divorce, in many others the Witness is encouraged to divorce after the non-Witness mate begins to attack her faith and criticizes what the Witness calls "God's organization."

Why does one's husband or wife suddenly decide to become a Jehovah's Witness? Why does their personality change so quickly and ominously? What can the other mate do to hold the marriage together, and to help get their mate out of this religion? Let's examine a few helpful hints.

The Initial Contact

People become Jehovah's Witnesses for a number of reasons. For those who have a legitimate hunger for God, the Witnesses appear to resemble what many think Christianity should be: members do not smoke, they dress modestly, they attend religious services several times a week, they share their faith with others. Furthermore, they shun "worldly" activities and parties (supposedly). They read the Bible and study religious subjects almost daily, they do not go to war, and they talk about a world where there will be no more pain and suffering. For this reason alone the Witnesses are appealing to many.

Others may have not-so-noble reasons for getting involved. Loneliness, resentment towards one's church or family (yes, some get involved out of rebellion to their upbringing!), and even a desire for power and authority over others can be strong factors in one's getting involved. Cults often enable one to be somebody in a world where they have been a "nobody," due to their socio-economic status, their personality weaknesses or their lack of opportunity.

Housewives often invite the Witnesses in because they may be lonely, they crave spiritual things and/or have been spiritually unfulfilled. Perhaps they no longer feel loved by their husbands and they need something to help them cope with life. In many cases, the sudden conversion of a family member or friend may be all it takes to start a person on the "road to paradise," a road that may very well destroy their lives and the lives of their family and relatives over the next few years.

The Family Reacts

"What could be the harm in studying the Bible?" asks the housewife, as her husband is beginning to lose his temper. Cathy had been away from church for years, angry over the hypocrisy she noticed in her last church that she had attended for five years. Since she had been away from Christianity, she found it hard to cope with raising three children and with a husband that worked 60 hours a week to feed them. The Witness ladies who came by were so pleasant, so interested in her welfare! She could always back out if she didn't like it, and they said there was no obligation. Soon Jim didn't see it that way, however, and he was determined (by forceful persuasion) to stop Cathy from even talking to the Witnesses. "They'll brainwash you!" Jim roared. Cathy laughed nervously, afraid of saying too much. She didn't want to tell him that she was even going to meetings every other week, and would be going door-to-door soon! Jim would go through the roof if he knew. She had better be cool.

Jim's reaction was typical. Many people have heard that Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult, but they cannot seem to tell others why. All have heard stories of Jehovah's Witnesses' stand on blood transfusions, not voting or defending their country, and their believing in the end of the world any day, even predicting the year for Armageddon a few times. Though the person who starts studying with the JWs usually cannot appreciate it, this is the most natural reaction of family members to one's involvement with a cult. Being taught that this is the first sign of "persecution for Jehovah's sake," however, the Witness does not seem to grasp the obvious, and begins to either withdraw or to lash out against their mate.

Few of the mates of the one who begins involvement with the Witnesses will handle the situation with tact and care. Not knowing the methods of mind control cults and how to circumvent them, they react with strong emotions, often alienating their mate at the most critical time. Only later (out of desperation) do they talk to an expert in mind control methods. That's why the need for education in this field is critical.

Why Some Divorce

"I'm getting a divorce!" said Cathy as she stormed out of the house, on her way to pick up the kids from school. Jim refused to let her take the kids to the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, saying that he "would rather they become atheists!" than to become Jehovah's Witnesses. Jim was over-reacting; he was brought up in a Methodist Church, and really did believe in the God of the Bible. He was getting increasingly frustrated, though. The local minister had been no help, and Jim was getting angry with God for allowing this "cult" to split up his family after several years of what he considered a happy marriage. He felt like blowing up the Kingdom Hall! (which, by the way, has happened before).

The local elders in the Kingdom Hall sympathized with Cathy. They had faced this before on numerous occasions. Many husbands, upon finding out about their wives studying with the Witnesses, become infuriated. The elders knew just what to say to Cathy (he is persecuting you for Jehovah's sake; he doesn't love the truth), as well as how to keep her from being swayed by others (you should be at all the meetings and go door-to-door; don't listen to the enemy when he puts doubts in your mind!). Other housewives who had lost their husbands years before were available at the Hall to console Cathy and to encourage her to "put Jehovah above all else."

Yes, Cathy did have doubts. All persons studying with the Witnesses start out with doubts. What if it IS a cult? Is it worth it to lose my family? For my children to lose their father? Does God really want me to join this organization? What if they are well-meaning but deceived? For Cathy, the pressure from both sides had become tremendous: common sense on one hand telling her something was wrong, but the fear of God destroying her at Armageddon on the other hand prevented her from entertaining nagging doubts. Sooner or later she had to resolve the "dissonance" in her soul. She had to make a choice, and she apparently just did. She was leaving Jim and taking the kids with her, even if it killed her. She was tired of his unreasonable nature and his anger that drove her to tears. Besides, how could she serve Jehovah married to an unbeliever? Even the elders in the Kingdom Hall understood, and said they would be willing to keep the kids when necessary. Jim could do whatever he wanted, but their blood would not be on her hands at Armageddon!

Child Custody

Many Witness kids do not remain Witnesses by the time they reach their late teens. Growing up in the Watchtower has been likened by some to "growing up in a small Western town, miles from nowhere, with nothing to do. All you see is sagebrush and cactus, and anything fun to do is always bad." Many of these kids manage to escape, but not always to a more wholesome environment! Plagued by guilt and the fear of dying at Armageddon, they stumble through life like lost children until someone is able to help them understand what it means to be a victim of a mind control cult. If they do find such a person, they are indeed lucky! It is not likely they will find such a person in the average church. They are few and far between.

Knowing this, it seems ironic that many mates seeking divorce would want to raise their children as Witnesses! But, alas, they have not heard such stories. They hear only good things in the Kingdom Hall. "Apostates," those who leave the Watchtower for any reason, are off limits!

Due to the increase of child custody cases in recent years, the Watchtower has prepared a booklet, Preparing For Child Custody Cases, that trains their children what to say in such proceedings. The booklet cannot be purchased at the Kingdom Hall, but is only available to those who ask the Society for it who are undergoing such court cases.

"Theocratic tact" (the deceptive way the Witnesses present themselves to outsiders) is used in court to sway the judge. Witness children are presented as models of good behavior, with a wide variety of interests in the arts and school activities, as well as desiring a good education. This is all a lie of course, since Witness children are instructed that competitive sports are bad, seeking any kind of popularity through school or community activities is bad, college is off limits, and hobbies should be kept to a minimum, since the door-to-door sales activities are the most important thing in life! One cannot survive Armageddon or even be counted as a Jehovah's Witness unless one regularly spends time selling Watchtower literature (or as they call it, "placing" literature). Children are to attend all meetings, and have to sit with the adults. They cannot move, chew gum, color pictures, or talk. Even going to the restroom is strongly discouraged! None of this information may reach the judge's ears, however. "Worldly people just do not understand us," the Witness would say in defense of using their "theocratic tact."

Counseling Important

Few of the mates of those getting involved with the Witnesses are willing to lose their marriage over it. Many of those who end up in divorce just didn't know what to do; they felt helpless and hopeless. Though some say every person has a free will and we shouldn't force our view on them, it should be recognized that those getting caught up in the JWs are victims of specific mind control tactics, and do not actually operate under a "free will." If they were able to see the situation a little more objectively and weigh all sides of the issue, they would almost always reject the Watchtower! This seldom occurs, however, due to (1) an inability to get them to think objectively, and (2) the lack of good information about the JWs. While the latter can be dealt with rather easily (see our publications list!), the former requires someone to talk to and/or work with who knows how to open up the minds of those in cults.

A good place to start is in your own church or community. Ask around for those who deal with cults. I don't mean just those who print or distribute information about cults (they are plentiful), but those who have a successful record of dealing with members of cults directly. Ask them how many active members of cults they have rescued. If no one is available locally, a call to a ministry such as this one will be helpful. (Along with this issue we are printing a list of ministries to JWs in the U.S.) If one wants to go all the way, one can hire an exit-counselor who specializes in getting people out of cults.

One should also not neglect seeing a marriage counselor, especially if they have had experience with couples who have religious differences. (Many divorces over "religion" are really not about religion at all. Their relationship simply came to a head, and the religious issue was convenient.) Seek marriage counseling, preferably from a Christian perspective if at all possible. Often a good counselor will help each person to see the other more objectively and with a little more love and understanding.

What to Do, What NOT to Do

Here are a few guidelines to remember:

DON'T call your mate names, don't tell them they are in a cult. Avoid any accusatory language or mannerisms. Control your temper!

DON'T give them a lot of literature to read against the WT unless you really believe they will read it; they will usually perceive it as an attack and "close up."

DON'T threaten them with divorce or taking the kids away, etc. Let them know you love them and stand beside them, not against them.

DON'T say things against the WT you cannot substantiate, or they will not take you seriously.

DO read all you can about cults, mind control methods, and the history of the Watchtower. Being well-informed and comfortable with what you know will be both impressive to your mate and will help you to be secure in what you believe. This makes the Watchtower less threatening to you!

DO adopt a "questioning" attitude, not being overly critical but concerned and interested in what they are learning. Show them you are interested in the truth as well.

DO try and arrange for ex-members of other cults to join in a casual dinner or evening time, letting them share their experiences in a group OTHER than JWs. (The doubts that others had about their own groups will help your mate's own doubts to resurface.)

DO be patient and pray for your mate. Many JWs end up leaving the organization after a number of years. If they are willing to THINK and DISCUSS, there is hope, and even if they seem obstinate now, they may very well change later.

[Hammock Parties]

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9121/obi7pp8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/reasons.html

Of all items listed, only three have been discontinued. (marked with an asterisk) All are listed, however, to show the absurdity of Watchtower authority and the absolute control leadership has over the lives of members once they join.

1. Jehovah God is not a Trinity

2. The doctrine of the Trinity is inspired by Satan

3. Jesus Christ is a created being, who at one time did not exist (a.k.a.Michael the archangel)

4. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is "God's active force" i.e. gravity, electricity etc.

5. Heaven is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses

6. Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

7. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians

8. There is no Hell (It is simply the grave)

9. There is no life after death (except for the 144,000)

10. Salvation is by good works not by Grace

11. You cannot be sure of salvation

12. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to

13. Jesus did not rise from the dead bodily but as a
spirit being

14. You are discouraged from attending college

15. The "first resurrection" occurred in 1918

16. All pastors are the "Antichrist"

17. All churches are of Satan

18. All governments are controlled by Satan

19. You cannot take a blood transfusion

20. You cannot be a police officer

21. You cannot salute the flag, stand for the national
anthem, or own a flag

22. You cannot serve in the military

23. You cannot buy girl Scout cookies

24. You must attend five meetings per week

25. Jesus'second coming occurred in 1914 (only
known to Jehovah's Witnesses)

26. You cannot marry a non-Jehovah's Witness

27. If one does not follow the rules of the Watchtower
they will be shunned

28. You cannot read Christian literature from a
Christian book store

29. You cannot be a cheerleader

30. You cannot celebrate any holidays (Christmas,
Easter, etc.)

31. You cannot celebrate your birthday

32. You cannot run for or hold a political office

33. You cannot vote in any political campaign

34. You cannot serve on a jury

35. You are discouraged from giving to charity (except Watchtower causes)

36. You cannot speak to former members who are shunned (disfellowshipped)

37. You cannot accept Christmas gifts

38. You must read and study Watchtower literature regularly

39. Only Jehovah's Witnesses can understand the Bible

40. Angels direct the Watchtower organization

41. Jesus did not die on a cross but an upright pole

42. You cannot own or wear a cross

43. You must report your witnessing activity to the elders

44. You must go from door to door weekly to gain converts

45. You cannot have friends who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

46. You must refer to all Jehovah's Witnesses as "brother" or "sister"

47. You cannot play chess*

48. You cannot understand the Bible without Watchtower literature to explain it

49. A child abuser is reported to Watchtower elders and not the police

50. You must forgo vacations to attend annual conventions

51. You are discouraged from buying a two door car-A "Theocratic" or "spiritually strong" Jehovah's Witness will have a full size car for the door to door work

52. Men cannot wear beards

53. Men must wear short hair

54. Women cannot pray in the presence of men
without a hat

55. You cannot have a tattoo

56. You forbidden to use any tobacco products

57. Only officially approved sexual practices are allowed in marriage

58. You must appear before a Judicial committee if you are caught breaking Watchtower rules (Secret files are kept on all members which record these meetings-these files are kept in New York and are never destroyed)

59. You must not own wind-chimes (they are for chasing away evil spirits)*

60. You cannot read any anti-Jehovah's Witness material

61. You cannot use pet foods made with blood or blood products

62. You cannot join any clubs or sports teams

63. You cannot wear jade jewelry*

64. You cannot purchase Christian products (books,
music, plaques, pictures etc.)

65. You cannot wear any Christian jewelry

66. Jehovah's Witness meeting places have no windows

67. If you see another Jehovah's Witness breaking the rules you must turn them in to the elders to be interrogated

68. Jesus could have sinned and failed in his mission

69. Jesus was not born the savior but became the savior at his baptism

70. The Watchtower organization is God's prophet on earth today

71. Women must submit to Watchtower elders

72. You cannot support your country

73. One must study Watchtower books at least six months before he can be baptized

74. Before baptism, one must answer over 80 questions in front of a panel of elders

75. Most of The Book of Revelation applies to the Jehovah's Witnesses

76. You cannot celebrate Mothers or Fathers day (it may produce pride)

77. Kingdom Halls cannot have pews for seating

78. JWs are are fobidden to say "good luck"

79. God is not omniscient "all knowing"

80. God is not omnipresent

81. God only speaks through the "Governing Body" in Brooklyn, New York

82. The Holy Spirit is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses

83. The Lord's supper is only to be eaten by select Jehovah's Witnesses (144,000 group-99.99% of Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from taking the Lord's supper)

84. The Lord's supper can only be offered once per year

85. JWs in times of crisis, are strongly discouraged from consulting with family counselors, including mental health professionals who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

87. If you have a non-Witness spouse your first loyalty is to the elders over your spouse

88. Jesus was equal to Adam (just a man)

89. Judgment day is 1000 years long

90. If you leave Jehovah's Witnesses or are expelled from the organization you will not be resurrected

91. Only Jehovah's Witness prayers are heard by God

92. Man's salvation is secondary in God's plan; Jesus was sent to "vindicate Jehovah's name"

93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at armageddon

94. You forbidden to say "God bless you" when someone sneezes.

95. You must never enter a church building

96. You must never attend a church service

97. You cannot be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling

98. You cannot participate in a school play

99. You cannot donate blood or your organs when you die

100. You can never question what is printed in Watchtower literature

10l. You are forbidden to attend a funeral of an ex-Jehovah's Witness

[Hammock Parties]

For anyone that cares, I was a Jehovah's Witness for 19 years. Went to meetings, went out in service rappin' on doors, all that BS. I really had to act like a complete retard during meetings to get my parents to finally relent and let me out of the whole circus. It is a VERY LARGE part of the reason I am the way I am, if that helps you understand me at all.

HOWEVER...

Not everything listed here is true. I'll add another post here in a few minutes separating the bullcrap - which actually, in some cases, further weakens the JW's as an organization. It is my opinion they are losing money and support and won't last much longer.

[Hammock Parties]

This is all a lie of course, since Witness children are instructed that competitive sports are bad

Not true. My sister competed in club and high school soccer as a youth. One of my JW friends was on his junior high school football team, and another was on my high school team.

seeking any kind of popularity through school or community activities is bad

Not true. My god my sister was popular. I wasn't but wearing star trek shirts will do that.

college is off limits

Definitely not true.

the door-to-door sales activities are the most important thing in life!

The Watchtower and Awake are not sold anymore. Even when they were, they only cost a few cents.

One cannot survive Armageddon or even be counted as a Jehovah's Witness unless one regularly spends time selling Watchtower literature (or as they call it, "placing" literature). Children are to attend all meetings, and have to sit with the adults. They cannot move, chew gum, color pictures, or talk. Even going to the restroom is strongly discouraged!

All this is horribly, awfully, true, although in some congregations perhaps not rigidly enforced. JW's are very inconsistent depending on the region and district. One time I went to the restroom just so I could listen to a Chiefs game on my pocket radio. HEATHEN!

On to "the list."

OK. I've gone through the list and picked out everything that, in my experience, is not true, or used to be true but isn't anymore (JWs are flip-floppers. In 1975 they said the world was ending. Dumbasses).

EVERYTHING ELSE IS 100% TRUE.


14. You are discouraged from attending college

Yes, but only mildly. The JWs would prefer you go to their headquarters in New York and become a "Bethelite," working for the organization and printing literature, etc.


16. All pastors are the "Antichrist"

LOL. Don't know who made this one up but it's false. Funny though.


23. You cannot buy girl Scout cookies

This is the funniest one I've heard. I love girlscout cookies (insert bob joke here). So do my parents.

24. You must attend five meetings per week

Yes, but needs explanation. Five meets = three days a week. In my case it was -

Tuesday - Group bookstudy (1 hour).

Usually held at someone's house, with a small group (10-15 people) meeting. A lot of JWs skip this. We used to hold it at my house in Scotland. I'd tape Star Trek TNG. ;D

Thursday - Theocratic Ministry School & Service Meeting (2 hours, 2 meetings).

Boring as ****. 45 minutes of people giving bible-based presentations (some by ignorant kids, gave my first when I was 10), and then an hour or so of older people yammering on about knocking on people's doors and how we're doing.


Sunday - Public Talk & Watchtower Study (2 hours, 2 meetings)

Almost as boring as Thursday. Public talk is 45 minutes of an older JW giving some massive bible-based presentation, usually an Elder. Watchtower Study is an hour of - you guessed it - study the watchtower magazine.

There's an article in each one with paragraphs and questions for each section. The designated "reader" for that Sunday reads each section, and then the "Watchtower Conductor" asks the questions and people answer.

It's really ****ing retarded, because the answers are RIGHT IN THE PARAGRAPHS, and most people just read them verbatim. Bonus points if you put it in your own words! My dad was the watchtower conductor for like ten years of my life, so it REALLY sucked for me.

Let me tell you something - five hours of religious meetings a week will really bring you down. Being pounded over the head with this crap really made me hate it. I came up with every excuse in the book to get out of going to meetings.


29. You cannot be a cheerleader


Not 100 percent sure on this one, but I never knew either way. Considering we were allowed to become jocks, I'd call it BS.


33. You cannot vote in any political campaign

They just changed this. Boy is my dad happy since he's a Fox News junkie. But like I said, flip-floppers!


44. You must go from door to door weekly to gain converts

"Must" and "weekly" are in contention here. "Publishers" are required to do it for 10 hours a month. Pioneers and Regular Pioneers are required to do it for greater periods of time per month. I was lazy and got out of it in any way possible. Sometimes I was bribed with donuts.


45. You cannot have friends who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

Biggest load of BS in this thread, although the Elders would rather you hang out with your brainwashed buddies more regularly than your "worldly" friends.


46. You must refer to all Jehovah's Witnesses as "brother" or "sister"

"Must" is not correct. JWs will use those terms frequently but it is not a requirement.


47. You cannot play chess*

Wow. JWs really had some funny ideas back in the day, eh?


50. You must forgo vacations to attend annual conventions

Yes and no. You're allowed to go on vacation. But they expect you to show up at conventions. And my god do they suck. A "convention" usually consisted of three days of "meetings." Full days, like eight hours, with a break for lunch. They were held in stadiums. I used to bring binoculars to scope out all the JW babes. Sometimes I would fantasize about climbing up into the ceilingworks with a sniper rifle and going to town.


51. You are discouraged from buying a two door car-A "Theocratic" or "spiritually strong" Jehovah's Witness will have a full size car for the door to door work

Um, no. No. Not even remotely.


52. Men cannot wear beards

53. Men must wear short hair

Both are DISCOURAGED, but not required. The Elders would probably have a "chat" with anyone that came in looking like Jake Plummer, though. ;D


57. Only officially approved sexual practices are allowed in marriage


Never heard anything about this. Makes me wonder though. Elders would marry JWs. Wonder if they were told "no doggystyle." ;D


62. You cannot join any clubs or sports teams

More bullcrap. See above (I was in the chess club).


79. God is not omniscient "all knowing"

80. God is not omnipresent

I was always taught he WAS these things. Don't know where these came from.


86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

This requires insight.

Yes, all you nonbelievers are going to be crushed under fiery, heaven-sent rocks and magma at Armageddon. But apparently, unless you're like SUPER EVIL (Hitler, etc), you get resurrected when the Earth is transformed into a "Paradise" a few minutes after Armageddon is over. Then you are judged, etc, etc. No word on whether or not the Paradise Earth will have internet, satellite TV and NFL football.


93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at armageddon

Yes, but as stated, all you Bronco fans get resurrected.


95. You must never enter a church building

Wrong. I went to all kinds of old churches for my European History class and no one cared.


98. You cannot participate in a school play

Participated in two school plays.


Hope that clears some stuff up. Also, JWs can't cuss, as if it wasn't obvious.

One last thing - calling JW's a "cult" seems off to me. Maybe I am still a little bit brainwashed, but Catholics seem to be more "cultish" to me, IMO. There's certainly a lot more dogma.

[chagrin]

How old are you now, for the record?

[Hammock Parties]

How old are you now, for the record?

25. I left when I was 19.

[Hammock Parties]

This is a sweet-ass video, BTW. Didn't know this existed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2183288529160546808&q=jehovah%27s+witness

[DJay23]

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9121/obi7pp8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/reasons.html

71. Women must submit to Watchtower elders


This one tells me everything I need to know about this, "religion."

Seriously, what a shitty ass life a JW leads. Basically you can't do anything but be a JW. It's good you got out.

[Skip Towne]

Does #71 mean what I think it means?

[Hammock Parties]

Does #71 mean what I think it means?

I don't even know how true it is, but there's certainly nothing sexual in it.

[Skip Towne]

I don't even know how true it is, but there's certainly nothing sexual in it.
Well, shit.

[pikesome]

Is this Mane spam?

[Stewie]

Wow GC, I had no idea they operated that way. I get JWs at my door every 2-3 months. I think our area gets more attention since there's a Kingdom Hall about three miles from my house.

BTW, our maid (I know, I know) when I was growing up was a JW. Nicest lady ever. She rarely spoke of her beliefs, so this explanation is eye opening.

[Hammock Parties]

I think our area gets more attention since there's a Kingdom Hall about three miles from my house.

Probably, but they map all that shit out. Everything is split up into territories and districts. What convention you attend is based on what district you are in. When I was in Springfield earlier this month, I helped my Uncle, who is an Elder, double-check his list of district overseers. LMAO

BTW, our maid (I know, I know) when I was growing up was a JW. Nicest lady ever. She rarely spoke of her beliefs, so this explanation is eye opening.

Most JWs are really nice. It took great training for me to become an asshole.

[chagrin]

How old are you now, for the record?


Okay, let me ask you this; what age did you start having to go out witnessing to people?

[Hammock Parties]

Okay, let me ask you this; what age did you start having to go out witnessing to people?

I start accompanying my parents when I was 8 or 9.

[InChiefsHeaven]

I knew a guy about 8 years ago at my last job. He was a JW, and since I'm a Catholic, we went the rounds. (Btw, of course I disagree with your assessment that Catholics are more "cultish" than the JW's, but I digress...)

This guy was pretty out there. I remember having debates about the military, military service, police service, birthdays etc. He basically had an arranged marriage, in the sense that he decided he was ready to have a wife, so he got introduced to some available single JW chicks and began to court them, always with the understanding that the purpose was ultimately marriage. He got married and had at least one kid that I know of.

We went on a work trip once and this dude really let his very short hair down. We went out for dinner after the meetings and put back a few beers, and his tounge became very loose, swearing and all. Of course, the next day he felt the need to apologize every 10 seconds. I told him it's too bad he's not Catholic, then he could just go to confession and be done with it...he didn't laugh.

In the end, he tried for 2 years to "convert" me. I've seen a few Watchtower tracts, but he would never look at or read anything I tried to give him. I found that whenever he got into a tight spot (and after a few months, it was easier for me to do) he would immediately change the subject and never come back to it. I found on www.freeminds.org that this is a tactic that they are taught. I think that website is very interesting and has some good info on the JW's, in fact the author of the article I believe is the founder. I just remember the name.

In the end, I think the JW's are a cult, they are brainwashed and they are lost. I feel for them.

[Hammock Parties]

he got introduced to some available single JW chicks and began to court them, always with the understanding that the purpose was ultimately marriage

This is another ****ed up thing. You can't date anyone just for fun. It has to be uber-serious.

[trndobrd]

Of all items listed, only three have been discontinued. (marked with an asterisk) All are listed, however, to show the absurdity of Watchtower authority and the absolute control leadership has over the lives of members once they join.

1. Jehovah God is not a Trinity

2. The doctrine of the Trinity is inspired by Satan

3. Jesus Christ is a created being, who at one time did not exist (a.k.a.Michael the archangel)

4. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is "God's active force" i.e. gravity, electricity etc.

5. Heaven is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses

6. Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

7. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians

8. There is no Hell (It is simply the grave)

9. There is no life after death (except for the 144,000)

10. Salvation is by good works not by Grace

11. You cannot be sure of salvation

12. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to

13. Jesus did not rise from the dead bodily but as a
spirit being


15. The "first resurrection" occurred in 1918

16. All pastors are the "Antichrist"

17. All churches are of Satan

18. All governments are controlled by Satan

25. Jesus'second coming occurred in 1914 (only
known to Jehovah's Witnesses)

40. Angels direct the Watchtower organization

41. Jesus did not die on a cross but an upright pole

54. Women cannot pray in the presence of men
without a hat

68. Jesus could have sinned and failed in his mission

69. Jesus was not born the savior but became the savior at his baptism

70. The Watchtower organization is God's prophet on earth today


75. Most of The Book of Revelation applies to the Jehovah's Witnesses

79. God is not omniscient "all knowing"

80. God is not omnipresent

81. God only speaks through the "Governing Body" in Brooklyn, New York

82. The Holy Spirit is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses

83. The Lord's supper is only to be eaten by select Jehovah's Witnesses (144,000 group-99.99% of Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from taking the Lord's supper)

84. The Lord's supper can only be offered once per year

86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

88. Jesus was equal to Adam (just a man)

89. Judgment day is 1000 years long

91. Only Jehovah's Witness prayers are heard by God

92. Man's salvation is secondary in God's plan; Jesus was sent to "vindicate Jehovah's name"

93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at armageddon



It's amusing that these items on the list, most of which are incorrect, are intended to prove the 'absurdity' of JW authority are nothing more than differences is biblical interpretation and doctrine.

[InChiefsHeaven]

Heh. I remember him actually talking to me about sex with his wife...now you have to understand that this guy was pretty gross, physically. He was a good 50 pounds overweight as was his wife, and he ate like an absolute pig. Talking to me about how he tried oral sex on his wife but didn't think he did it right...kinda made my stomach turn. I guess you'd have to have been there.

Man, I haven't thought of this stuff in years, now a ton of stuff about this guy is coming back to me. I agree, they are allowed to go to college. What got me was this guy had a "disability" (the bones in one foot were fused together) so he had the handicap dealie on his car. Allowed him to have rock star parking because he couldn't walk very far...of course, the fact that he ate like a pig and was overweight might have had something to do with it as well...but we would walk down to the Godfather's buffet at lunch, a good 5 blocks...somehow, he survived. His disability got him state benefits and his college was paid for...by a government that he was not allowed (at that time anyway) to support or vote for. I asked him about this hypocrisy, and you guessed it...he changed the subject...

[Hammock Parties]

It's amusing that these items on the list, most of which are incorrect, are intended to prove the 'absurdity' of JW authority are nothing more than differences is biblical interpretation and doctrine.

That doesn't change the fact that most of the overall list is correct. JW are ABSURD.

[Hammock Parties]

His disability got him state benefits and his college was paid for...by a government that he was not allowed (at that time anyway) to support or vote for. I asked him about this hypocrisy, and you guessed it...he changed the subject...

Heh. There's a huge firestorm going on right now about the JW being a member of the UN. One of my dad's friends, who had been a JW for YEARS, dumped the organization over it. He's pretty cool, took me to the Donks game in KC last year. Lives in Overland Park. Of course when I mentioned his name my grandmother reacted in shock. :rolleyes:

[ROYC75]

Is this Mane spam?


ROFL ROFL ROFL Nice punch .......

[gblowfish]

That whole girl scout cookie thing is harsh, man.

[trndobrd]

That doesn't change the fact that most of the overall list is correct. JW are ABSURD.


Most is incorrect or clearly misleading.

"They aren't allowed to have pews" duh, they have chairs.

[Hammock Parties]

Most is incorrect or clearly misleading.

"They aren't allowed to have pews" duh, they have chairs.

Meh. I think you were just railing against religion in general with the doctrine comment, am I right?

[C-Mac]

I had several JW's that worked for me thoughout the years in my retail store. They were by far my best employee's, so I personally have no issues with them. I have read their several of their brochures they gave me including one with their take on blood and I can assure you that #61 is not even remotely a teaching of theirs. It appears to me that people who write such things against other peoples beliefs and write with such authority, have an ulterior motives and hold zero responsibilty if they are correct or not. To be fair to all parties, print the list and then ask a JW if they are true next time you encounter one. In fact, if GoChiefs parents are still JW's and thinks this is all accurate representation of their beliefs, then his credibilty as a JW spokesman is probably no different than the guy who submitted this list, opinionated and biased, showing no relevancy to the facts.

[Hammock Parties]

In fact, if GoChiefs parents are still JW's and thinks this is all accurate representation of their beliefs, then his credibilty as a JW spokesman is probably no different than the guy who submitted this list, opinionated and biased, showing no relevancy to the facts.

Oops. Yeah, that one is BS, too. As I stated, several of these are not true.

[C-Mac]

Oops. Yeah, that one is BS, too. As I stated, several of these are not true.
Then explain why thread even exists if its no more than a bunch of innacuracies and lies.

[Pitt Gorilla]

#5 seems to be true for many religions. It seems stupid, but a lot of people believe this way.

[Hammock Parties]

Then explain why thread even exists if its no more than a bunch of innacuracies and lies.

MOST of them are true. And the beginning article in particular is VERY true.

[C-Mac]

MOST of them are true. And the beginning article in particular is VERY true.

Your still very vague but I guess it is interesting to note that one of my JW's employee's named Scott had a mom who had became a JW and his step-dad was very opposed, he talked to me about it many times. Yet they still managed to co-exist for the 4 years he worked for me and I'm guessing they probably still do today.
Look, whether I want to agree with any of the JW's teachings or not, they still deserve accurate representation of their teachings and beliefs. What you have posted in this thread appears very inaccurate.

[Lzen]

#5 seems to be true for many religions. It seems stupid, but a lot of people believe this way.

That's partly why I got away from Catholicism. I don't know if my priest growing up was just old fashioned or what, but he was always preaching that way. I don't believe that. It is my belief that if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior-that he died on the cross for our sins-you will go to Heaven. I don't believe that good deeds(although He wants you to lead a good life which includes doing good things) get you to Heaven.

[Hammock Parties]

What you have posted in this thread appears very inaccurate.

Uh, I pretty much explained everything. 19 years. I KNOW what I'm talking about. They are a rotten organization that has done nothing but flip flop since they were created. Did you know they built a huge mansion for Isaac, Abraham and Jacob? LMAO That got swept under the rug.

[Eleazar]

That list is from a Geocities page. The person posting it probably just got it as an email forward.

[Hammock Parties]

That list is from a Geocities page. The person posting it probably just got it as an email forward.

Why is that relevant? It's accurate for the most part, and I pointed out the inaccuracies.

[Eleazar]

#5 seems to be true for many religions. It seems stupid, but a lot of people believe this way.

Isn't that true of Jehovah's Witnesses? That they think all the seats are taken in Heaven already, and unless you were born before 193x you don't even have a chance?

Carm.org has got a lot of interesting stuff, information on various sects and teachings from an evangelical perspective if any of you are bored. Large section on JWs.

[Skip Towne]

Your still very vague but I guess it is interesting to note that one of my JW's employee's named Scott had a mom who had became a JW and his step-dad was very opposed, he talked to me about it many times. Yet they still managed to co-exist for the 4 years he worked for me and I'm guessing they probably still do today.
Look, whether I want to agree with any of the JW's teachings or not, they still deserve accurate representation of their teachings and beliefs. What you have posted in this thread appears very inaccurate.
He was trained by WPI. Accuracy is ignored over there.

[InChiefsHeaven]

That's partly why I got away from Catholicism. I don't know if my priest growing up was just old fashioned or what, but he was always preaching that way. I don't believe that. It is my belief that if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior-that he died on the cross for our sins-you will go to Heaven. I don't believe that good deeds(although He wants you to lead a good life which includes doing good things) get you to Heaven.

Neither does the Catholic Church, for what it's worth. That's a big misconception of the Church's teaching on salvation.

[C-Mac]

Uh, I pretty much explained everything. 19 years. I KNOW what I'm talking about. They are a rotten organization that has done nothing but flip flop since they were created. Did you know they built a huge mansion for Isaac, Abraham and Jacob? LMAO That got swept under the rug.

I respect your opinion, but seeing the way you post and present these inaccuracies, it hard to believe anything you say about them.

[InChiefsHeaven]

Your still very vague but I guess it is interesting to note that one of my JW's employee's named Scott had a mom who had became a JW and his step-dad was very opposed, he talked to me about it many times. Yet they still managed to co-exist for the 4 years he worked for me and I'm guessing they probably still do today.
Look, whether I want to agree with any of the JW's teachings or not, they still deserve accurate representation of their teachings and beliefs. What you have posted in this thread appears very inaccurate.

I think it's a case of Church teaching vs. practice by actual members. I had read about the shunning of people who wander from the faith. This was confirmed by my friend at work. But I also knew that there are people who make personal exceptions. That's also true of any religion. But the teachings of the JW Church are that you are to stick to your own kind, the only reason to communicate with others is for witnessing. Even my "buddy" at work said as much regarding going out with people after work to a retirement function or inviting people over to his house. He said he really only socializes with other JW's and that his church taught him that.

[C-Mac]

He was trained by WPI. Accuracy is ignored over there.

Behold, post perfecto! ....ROFL :) ROFL

[Hammock Parties]

I respect your opinion, but seeing the way you post and present these inaccuracies, it hard to believe anything you say about them.

What exactly do you want me to do? I went through the list and left out the ones that I felt were true, based on 19 years of experience. I then grabbed the ones that were false, and explained why they were false.

[trndobrd]

Meh. I think you were just railing against religion in general with the doctrine comment, am I right?

In part. "They're crazy because they don't believe in the Holy Trinity and only have the Lords Supper once a year" and similar comments don't really prove much of anything beyond a disagreement about doctirine. Gets back to the old "my Tree God is more powerful that your Rock God" type stuff.

About half the doctrinal comments are incorrect statements of JW belief. Per JW doctrine, Jesus was resurrected as a living person, there is life after death (on earth), and God is omnipotent and hears all prayers.

Some of the other comments are specifically intended to be misleading. The "they are not allowed to have pews", for example. That's not a doctrine and very few new churches have pews, most have moveable chairs.

Oh, and there are a lot of duplicates.

[C-Mac]

I think it's a case of Church teaching vs. practice by actual members. I had read about the shunning of people who wander from the faith. This was confirmed by my friend at work. But I also knew that there are people who make personal exceptions. That's also true of any religion. But the teachings of the JW Church are that you are to stick to your own kind, the only reason to communicate with others is for witnessing. Even my "buddy" at work said as much regarding going out with people after work to a retirement function or inviting people over to his house. He said he really only socializes with other JW's and that his church taught him that.

Agreed. I've had similar discussions and I cant hold it against them for if I had for example to chose whether my family was to be around a bunch of drunks or not, I would pass also. I'm also selective and dont let my kids play with every kid on the block either. There is no doubt though that of the JW's I knew, they were very social, unlike what I had been told that they were some kind of anti-social introverts.

[Lzen]

Neither does the Catholic Church, for what it's worth. That's a big misconception of the Church's teaching on salvation.

I don't mean to knock on your religion. My mom and sisters are still members. I was just sharing my own personal experience. My priest also strongly discouraged marrying someone in another religion. I could somewhat see the point. However, to me it seemed as though he was saying only Catholics will be around in the next life. By the time I was 9 or 10, they had me thinking I was already destined for Hell and there was no way to fix it.
:shake:

[C-Mac]

What exactly do you want me to do? I went through the list and left out the ones that I felt were true, based on 19 years of experience. I then grabbed the ones that were false, and explained why they were false.

First you say "Of all items listed, only three have been discontinued. (marked with an asterisk) All are listed, however, to show the absurdity of Watchtower authority". Then you go on and post that there are at least twenty six more inaccuracies, still not listing #61, the one I know is false. So why bother posting any at all? You make it very clear that you have a personal agenda and your not concerned about misrepresentation or the facts as long as you can get others to hate the JW church like you do.

[DMAC]

Hey GC, I love to argue (friendly) when they come to my door.

What is something good to say next time to "stump" them?

[Hammock Parties]

Hey GC, I love to argue (friendly) when they come to my door.

What is something good to say next time to "stump" them?

Ask them why they are a member of the UN and what happened to 1914, 1918, 1941 and 1975. If it's someone young, or even middle-aged, they won't even know what the hell you're talking about most likely.

I didn't.

[DMAC]

Ask them why they are a member of the UN and what happened to 1914, 1918, 1941 and 1975. If it's someone young, or even middle-aged, they won't even know what the hell you're talking about most likely.

I didn't.Um, I would like to know what I am talking about though.

[Hammock Parties]

First you say "[I]Of all items listed, only three have been discontinued. (marked with an asterisk) All are listed, however, to show the absurdity of Watchtower authority".

Those weren't my words, sorry. That was from the website.

Then you go on and post that there are at least twenty six more inaccuracies, still not listing #61, the one I know is false.

Yes, those were my words. And I missed 61, that's my bad.

Nothing is mis-represented here. Sorry you got confused.

[Hammock Parties]

Um, I would like to know what I am talking about though.

The Watchtower organization basically predicted the world would end in each of those years.

They are part of the UN and yet have preached for years that they are "no part of this world."

http://www.freeminds.org/ will provide you with more info.

[Braincase]

That's partly why I got away from Catholicism. I don't know if my priest growing up was just old fashioned or what, but he was always preaching that way. I don't believe that. It is my belief that if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior-that he died on the cross for our sins-you will go to Heaven. I don't believe that good deeds(although He wants you to lead a good life which includes doing good things) get you to Heaven.

JPII pretty much put that to bed. He said good people go to heaven, regardless of faith. I agree.

[InChiefsHeaven]

I don't mean to knock on your religion. My mom and sisters are still members. I was just sharing my own personal experience. My priest also strongly discouraged marrying someone in another religion. I could somewhat see the point. However, to me it seemed as though he was saying only Catholics will be around in the next life. By the time I was 9 or 10, they had me thinking I was already destined for Hell and there was no way to fix it.
:shake:

I hear ya, and that sucks. Nothing worse than a stupid priest teaching the wrong stuff...

...but you were only 10, so maybe you just didn't get it at the time?

[shrek6849]

No wonder your parents failed at raising you.

[C-Mac]

The Watchtower organization basically predicted the world would end in each of those years.

They are part of the UN and yet have preached for years that they are "no part of this world."

http://www.freeminds.org/ will provide you with more info.


Again you speak with such authority, do you have the facts? My curiosity is up because I was told the same as far as them being involved in politics. Here are two links to the UN, show us were the JW's are listed as practicing political members of the UN.

http://www.un.org/aboutun/

http://www.un.org/members/growth.shtml

[Hammock Parties]

Again you speak with such authority, do you have the facts?


Actually, on this subject, no, I only know the very basics I've presented in this thread. But I know it is a MAJOR issue, because Brant was a JW for over 40 years and incredibly devout - moreso than anyone in my family. He lost complete faith over the issue and took his entire family with him.

Lies have been spread about him since including "The Church of Brant." ROFL

[Adept Havelock]

The Watchtower organization basically predicted the world would end in each of those years.

They are part of the UN and yet have preached for years that they are "no part of this world."

http://www.freeminds.org/ will provide you with more info.


I always get a chuckle out of EOTW nutters who run around proclaiming the end times just to increase their take from the collections plate. I do usually feel bad for the poor folks who get snookered by them.

[Hammock Parties]

Here you are, C-Mac:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness1.htm#un

Jehovah's Witnesses and their NGO status at the United Nations:

Many religious organizations, including the Baptist World Alliance, Bah'ai International Community, Catholic Daughters of the Americas, Unitarian Universalist Association, etc. have obtained NGO (Non-governmental organization) status with various sections of the United Nations. NGOs cannot become members of the UN itself. They can, however, associate with one of the sections of the UN. The Jehovah's Witnesses allegedly applied for NGO status as an ssociate member of the United Nations Department of Public Information (UN/DPI) in 1991. This was approved in 1992. Some criticized this move, because of the organization's frequently stated position in opposition to the United Nations.

According to The Guardian, a British newspaper, "The Watchtower Society has been denouncing the UN and its predecessor the League of Nations for 80 years, believing them to be a world empire of false religion, predicted in the Book of Revelation. A recent publication...describes the UN as 'a disgusting thing in the sight of God and his people'. " 2 The WTS has described the UN as the "scarlet beast" mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Many people, including officials at the UN itself, were surprised in early 2001-OCT to learn of the NGO connection. A former Witness said:

"There is a glaring inconsistency which has emerged between the WTBTS's frequent portrayal of the UN as an evil organisation and its behind-the-scenes attempts to curry favor with that organization. Were individual members to be aware of any formal link they would be devastated...By no stretch of the imagination could the WTBTS be considered to share the ideals of the UN charter unless you suppose that destruction of the UN by God is consistent with that charter."

[C-Mac]

Yes, those were my words. And I missed 61, that's my bad.

This is my point, how would anyone know what else you "missed"?

[Hammock Parties]

This is my point, how would anyone know what else you "missed"?

I have reviewed the data. It is solid. It was early in the morning, I just "missed" it. Get me? It's one out of ONE HUNDRED.

[C-Mac]

Here you are, C-Mac:

This does not say they are part of a political party, only NGO.
:shrug:

[Hammock Parties]

This does not say they are part of a political party, only NGO.

That is accurate.

[Lzen]

I have reviewed the data. It is solid. It was early in the morning, I just "missed" it. Get me? It's one out of ONE HUNDRED.

101 :p

[C-Mac]

That is accurate.

OK then what is it I'm missing here? As far as I read being listed as a NGO does not constitute you as a political entity of the UN, in fact I think it separates you.

[Inspector]

Windchimes are OK now???

I might consider joining then.

[Hammock Parties]

OK then what is it I'm missing here?

Ask the former JWs. It seems to make them really mad that their organization had anything to do with the UN.

[C-Mac]

Ask the former JWs. It seems to make them really mad that their organization had anything to do with the UN.

I might ask a practicing JW when that situation arrises but there is no doubt that someone like you who is was supposedly raised by JW's yet disagrees, has no respect for the facts when pushing their own personal agenda. Again your UN comment holds no merit. I would stick to writing football stories because all understand that they are mostly based upon opinion and at least I can respect that.

[Hammock Parties]

Again your UN comment holds no merit.

Why? JWs are leaving the organization in DROVES over it. FACT.

Are you saying I made it up?

I posted this material and then went OUT OF MY WAY to debunk a large chunk of it. I'm committed to the truth here.

[Hammock Parties]

And you're right, C-Mac, I do have an agenda. That agenda is to expose the organization as the fraudulent, flip-flopping farce that it is.

Most JWs are good people. The organization is not.

Are you arguing otherwise?

[Eleazar]

Um, I would like to know what I am talking about though.

Ask them if the Watchtower organization is a prophet of God, why they have made false predictions like all the years the world was going to end. "You will know them by their fruits" and all that.

[C-Mac]

Why? JWs are leaving the organization in DROVES over it. FACT.

Are you saying I made it up?

I posted this material and then went OUT OF MY WAY to debunk a large chunk of it. I'm committed to the truth here.

Do you not know that NGO stands for "non government organization" which means they are not part of an political organization? Yet now you claim as FACT that JW's are leaving in DROVES because they just found out they are secretly part of a political organization(which they obviously don't appear to be)? No, you perhaps didn't make it up but someone else who is mis-informed like this guy words you originally posted (who you admitted was errant) could have relayed. So again you speak so boldly yet you have zero facts to share other than your opinion or someone's else's. Why don't you just state "In my opinion" before every post instead of coming across as a factual fool?

[Adept Havelock]

I would stick to writing football stories because all understand that they are mostly based upon opinion and at least I can respect that.

After all Gochiefs, C-Mac's respect is the end-all and be-all of internet standards. ROFL

C-Mac, yes, Gochiefs has an agenda, as do you IMO (being a religious fundamentalist you have self-interest in taking up for other fundamentalists). Frankly, I treat you both with a major dose of healthy skepticism.

That said, most of the JW's I've known have been nice people, but far from rational IMO. They certainly are fun to mess with when they come door-to-door...as are most other peddlers, be they peddlers of merchandise or religions.

Edit- It's post 5,666 for me! Run for the hills! It's THE MARK! :p

[DenverChief]

14. You are discouraged from attending college



think not for thyself


that about sums it up for me

[DenverChief]

After all Gochiefs, C-Mac's respect is the end-all and be-all of internet standards. ROFL

C-Mac, yes, Gochiefs has an agenda, as do you IMO (being a religious fundamentalist you have self-interest in taking up for other fundamentalists). Frankly, I treat you both with a major dose of healthy skepticism.

That said, most of the JW's I've known have been nice people, but far from rational IMO. They certainly are fun to mess with when they come door-to-door...as are most other peddlers.

Edit- It's post 5,666 for me! Run for the hills! It's THE MARK! :p


LMAO

[Pitt Gorilla]

I think it's a case of Church teaching vs. practice by actual members. I had read about the shunning of people who wander from the faith. This was confirmed by my friend at work. But I also knew that there are people who make personal exceptions. That's also true of any religion. But the teachings of the JW Church are that you are to stick to your own kind, the only reason to communicate with others is for witnessing. Even my "buddy" at work said as much regarding going out with people after work to a retirement function or inviting people over to his house. He said he really only socializes with other JW's and that his church taught him that.I attended a Baptist church for a while as an undergrad. My second week there, we endured a PowerPoint on the people in our town who were going to hell (including all Catholics). I fit into more than one category!

[Calcountry]

25. I left when I was 19.Which is right about the time he showed up at the Planet. We cured him, PRAISE GOD!

[C-Mac]

And you're right, C-Mac, I do have an agenda. That agenda is to expose the organization as the fraudulent, flip-flopping farce that it is.

Most JWs are good people. The organization is not.

Are you arguing otherwise?

Thats the reason I'm even posting on this thread, is in defense of the JW's I've known personally at my work. What I experienced was good very honest hard working people as a group and this seems to be molded from their respect for bibles priciples and strong faith in a God. I have read a lot of their literature and I asked questions. I found out that there were a lot of lies I had been told about this churches teachings and obviuosly some of which were posted by you. So I chose to live and let live. I'm sure there are some bad eggs, there is in every church but as a group they seem happy enough to me not to allow any disagreements I may have with there teachings cause me to hate.

[Hammock Parties]

Do you not know that NGO stands for "non government organization" which means they are not part of an political organization? Yet now you claim as FACT that JW's are leaving in DROVES because they just found out they are secretly part of a political organization(which they obviously don't appear to be)? No, you perhaps didn't make it up but someone else who is mis-informed like this guy words you originally posted (who you admitted was errant) could have relayed. So again you speak so boldly yet you have zero facts to share other than your opinion or someone's else's. Why don't you just state "In my opinion" before every post instead of coming across as a factual fool?

Look, you can choose to ignore it, but it is fact. Go on http://www.freeminds.org/. There are hundreds of threads debating this very topic. I don't know what your angle is here, but you're wrong. Brant isn't wrong, either. What did you hope to accomplish by debating me? Are you defending your employees? What's the point?

[Hammock Parties]

Thats the reason I'm even posting on this thread, is in defense of the JW's I've known personally at my work.

I will defend those people, too, C-Mac. They are good people. The organization is not.

[C-Mac]

After all Gochiefs, C-Mac's respect is the end-all and be-all of internet standards. ROFL

C-Mac, yes, Gochiefs has an agenda, as do you IMO (being a religious fundamentalist you have self-interest in taking up for other fundamentalists). Frankly, I treat you both with a major dose of healthy skepticism.

That said, most of the JW's I've known have been nice people, but far from rational IMO. They certainly are fun to mess with when they come door-to-door...as are most other peddlers, be they peddlers of merchandise or religions.

Edit- It's post 5,666 for me! Run for the hills! It's THE MARK! :p

Wow such a respectful compliment. Its one thing to disagree, its another to willfully slander. I respect your personal beliefs and also view your agenda with a heavy dose of scepticism since you also have self-interest in tearing down any fundamentalist beliefs thats contrary to yours.

[C-Mac]

I will defend those people, too, C-Mac. They are good people. The organization is not.

How is painting them a uneducated idiots defending them?

[Pitt Gorilla]

How is painting them a uneducated idiots defending them?This post made me chuckle.

[Adept Havelock]

Wow such a respectful compliment. Its one thing to disagree, its another to willfully slander. I respect your personal beliefs and also view your agenda with a heavy dose of scepticism since you also have self-interest in tearing down any fundamentalist beliefs thats contrary to yours.

You're welcome. :)

[Hammock Parties]

How is painting them a uneducated idiots defending them?

They are not uneducated idiots. They are simply misled.

[C-Mac]

This post made me chuckle.

Perhaps, but still how would you feel having GoChiefs representing you. :D

[stumppy]

I should preface this by reminding all of you how little I think of goat boy. And it kills me to agree with anything he posts.

Reading the 'Familys broken apart' part of this was like reading an excerpt of my life story. The only difference is that my ex was brought up in the JW's but as she became an adult got away from them. Well, more like they shunned her away. She was your typical person as she grew up. Liked to party, do her own thing etc. And they didn't like that so she kinda drifted away from/was shunned by them.

She and I got married. She had a son from a previous marriage, I had a son and daughter. Then we had one together. We were you average family under those circumstances.

So, now that she had settled down and was raising a family her family became more agressive about getting her back into ' The truth '. And, eventually they did.

Reading the article will tell you the rest of what happened in my situation.


All I can say is beware when the JW's come knocking on your door.

[C-Mac]

Look, you can choose to ignore it, but it is fact. Go on http://www.freeminds.org/. There are hundreds of threads debating this very topic. I don't know what your angle is here, but you're wrong. Brant isn't wrong, either. What did you hope to accomplish by debating me? Are you defending your employees? What's the point?
I only debate you because you state your opinion as fact, you base all your biased facts on opinions of others like you. The fact is that a religion that is listed as NCO with the UN is stating it is not a non-political party, yet you claim that cant be true because many, like your uncle, are using it for an excuse to leave the JW church. So it appears to me that he was just looking for any excuse to leave the church reguardless of the facts. Perhaps I should call one of my JW employees and let him go through your "A" list and at least allow a fair oppourtunity to rebuttle.

[Hammock Parties]

The fact is that a religion that is listed as NCO with the UN is stating it is not a non-political party, yet you claim that cant be true because many, like your uncle, are using it for an excuse to leave the JW church.

You missed the point. It doesn't matter that it's a political party. The only thing that matters to these people is that the organization is associating with the UN in ANY WAY. The UN was supposed to be EVIL INCARNATE.

And C-Mac, my opinion isn't fact. But I state facts. I know what I'm talking about. I lived and breathed this shit for 19 years. I was the son of an elder and a third-generation JW in my family. I'm lucky I didn't get my shit ruined like so many of these poor people. If my relatives were REAL JWs they would have stopped talking to me six years ago.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I only debate you because you state your opinion as fact, you base all your biased facts on opinions of others like you. The fact is that a religion that is listed as NCO with the UN is stating it is not a non-political party, yet you claim that cant be true because many, like your uncle, are using it for an excuse to leave the JW church. So it appears to me that he was just looking for any excuse to leave the church reguardless of the facts. Perhaps I should call one of my JW employees and let him go through your "A" list and at least allow a fair oppourtunity to rebuttle.


Please do. I don't know how many more times I can read your "Opinions stated as facts" schtick. I can't tell if you have a hard on for slamming the Chief of Go or if you're a closet JW yourself. Maybe you're just sticking up for the people who are making you money, it doesn't really matter. It's getting to the point of obsessive. Let me throw in the JMHO for good measure.

[Hammock Parties]

I had no idea it was this bad.

I was accepted into Bethel in August of 1976. I was put to work in the bindery. Three of us new recruits shared a room which had a maximum capacity of two. At breakfast each morning there were eight bowls for ten hungry Bethelites. I received $20 a month, twelve of which I had to turn over to Bill Jackson (of the Governing Body) for gas money as he drove me and several other brothers back and forth to our congregation three times a week. But I applied myself to my work and soon had the top quota of books sewn together each day. I was happy again, for awhile.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I had no idea it was this bad.


Is that on the link freemind something or other you've been posting? Next time I feel like being disgusted I'd like to read that.

[C-Mac]

You missed the point. It doesn't matter that it's a political party. The only thing that matters to these people is that the organization is associating with the UN in ANY WAY. The UN was supposed to be EVIL INCARNATE.

And C-Mac, my opinion isn't fact. But I state facts. I know what I'm talking about. I lived and breathed this shit for 19 years. I was the son of an elder and a third-generation JW in my family.

Look, you cant go around boasting that your stating the facts when you already admitted you havent been, nor has the guy you pasted. I have read something where they say the UN represents the 7th (or 8th) king in the book of Revelation, but I never read anything or was told that they believe that the UN is the "evil incarnate". In fact I was told that they are taught to respect all goverments and their laws unless it goes against Gods law. So what gives? I found there official website and a page with belief explainations....show us what you say.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/index.htm?article=article_03.htm

[Hammock Parties]

Look, you cant go around boasting that your stating the facts when you already admitted you havent been, nor has the guy you pasted.

What? I debunked the lies with FACTS. Hello?


I have read something where they say the UN represents the 7th (or 8th) king in the book of Revelation, but I never read anything or was told that they believe that the UN is the "evil incarnate".

I pasted it in this thread, man. But here's ANOTHER source, A FRIGGIN' WATCHTOWER:

http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/jw/jwun.htm

This attitude of the Watchtower Society to the UN is nothing new as the following quotes show:


"Like the symbolic 'scarlet-colored wild beast' of Revelation chapter 17, upon which the old harlot, 'Babylon the Great,' has seated herself, the League of Nations went into 'the abyss' at the outbreak of World War II in 1939… After the close of World War II in 1945, the United Nations was set up as the successor to the ill-fated League of Nations.

It has far more members than the League had, so it should be a stronger organization and deserving of more confidence on the part of the world of mankind. Thus it was in 1945 that the symbolic 'scarlet-colored wild beast ascended 'out of the abyss,' and the symbolic harlot, 'Babylon the Great,' again climbed onto its back, where she shamelessly sits to this day. (Revelation 17:3, 5, 8)… The United Nations is actually a worldly confederacy against Jehovah God and his dedicated Witnesses on earth." - The Watchtower, 1 September 1987, p.20.

[Hammock Parties]

Is that on the link freemind something or other you've been posting? Next time I feel like being disgusted I'd like to read that.

Yeah.

[LiL stumppy]

Bahhaha this is ridiculous. I am not even going to get into because I don't care what anyone be leaves. But I scrolled down and picked 5 out of the numbering part and all were completely in accurate and not true. I mean seriously, your making things up, using your background in the congregation as a reference in the so they believe that you know what your talking about and are correct. Not surprising thats its from you though.

[C-Mac]

Please do. I don't know how many more times I can read your "Opinions stated as facts" schtick. I can't tell if you have a hard on for slamming the Chief of Go or if you're a closet JW yourself. Maybe you're just sticking up for the people who are making you money, it doesn't really matter. It's getting to the point of obsessive. Let me throw in the JMHO for good measure.

Sorry guess I'am being a little bit redundant, its just that he's just not real good a separating the two. I really respected and enjoyed the JW's I worked with and I know now that they often get lied about so perhaps I'm a little too compelled to stick up for them.

[SLAG]

How does a JW respond to the Passage of John 20:28 when Thomas says "My Lord and My God" to Jesus... What is the response to that to Still Deny the Divinity of Christ

[Hammock Parties]

How does a JW respond to the Passage of John 20:28 when Thomas says "My Lord and My God" to Jesus... What is the response to that to Still Deny the Divinity of Christ

http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_08.htm

But what about the apostle Thomas' saying, "My Lord and my God!" to Jesus at John 20:28?

To Thomas, Jesus was like "a god," especially in the miraculous circumstances that prompted his exclamation. Some scholars suggest that Thomas may simply have made an emotional exclamation of astonishment, spoken to Jesus but directed to God.

In either case, Thomas did not think that Jesus was Almighty God, for he and all the other apostles knew that Jesus never claimed to be God but taught that Jehovah alone is "the only true God."—John 17:3.

Again, the context helps us to understand this. A few days earlier the resurrected Jesus had told Mary Magdalene to tell the disciples: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) Even though Jesus was already resurrected as a mighty spirit, Jehovah was still his God. And Jesus continued to refer to Him as such even in the last book of the Bible, after he was glorified.—Revelation 1:5, 6; 3:2, 12.

Just three verses after Thomas' exclamation, at John 20:31, the Bible further clarifies the matter by stating: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God," not that he was Almighty God. And it meant "Son" in a literal way, as with a natural father and son, not as some mysterious part of a Trinity Godhead.


If you'll excuse me I have to go puke. I just picked up a bible for the first time in years.

[C-Mac]

What? I debunked the lies with FACTS. Hello?

You debunked with your opinion, how is that fact? I also quickly found an error that you had missed and admitted to. Look without having a JW next to me I cant rebuttle all of them accurately and I wouldnt accept his thoughts as fact unless he could back it up with proper proof. You should use something off their official website, then that would make your case against them appear sincere and more accurate.

[Eleazar]

How does a JW respond to the Passage of John 20:28 when Thomas says "My Lord and My God" to Jesus... What is the response to that to Still Deny the Divinity of Christ

I've also read that their translation inserts the word Jehovah in the new testament all over the place, when it is only used in old testament manuscripts.

Obviously most people know about the changing of the text in John 1:1, but I didn't realize they had done the other thing until I heard someone talk about it on the radio semi-recently.

[Hammock Parties]

You debunked with your opinion, how is that fact?

This is irrelevant. I only hope for your sake you are not studying with them, because it sure sounds like it.

[C-Mac]

How does a JW respond to the Passage of John 20:28 when Thomas says "My Lord and My God" to Jesus... What is the response to that to Still Deny the Divinity of Christ

Sorry Slag, I have to agree with them on this, even Satan is refered to as a god and so was Paul.

For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him. -1 Corinthians 8:5-6

[kcxiv]

All hardcore religions are kinda nuts imo. I beleive in god and Jesus Christ, but the hardcores take it way to far. For them, if you dont beleive in exactly what they tell you to beleive, then your going to hell, its just that simple for them.

THey do not want you to think for yourself, ONly what they want you to beleive in. If i interpret something a meaning in the bible other then what they think its wrong. I once told them, god gave me free will, i can interpret it how i want. is it right? i dont know, but to say yours is the right way and mine is wrong, is also wrong.

I do not beleive in a certain denomination.

[C-Mac]

This is irrelevant. I only hope for your sake you are not studying with them, because it sure sounds like it.

You are correct, its all irrelavant when its one sided. I have read their literature but I'm not studying with them....although you may inspire me to do so.

[Hammock Parties]

I have read their literature but I'm not studying with them....although you may inspire me to do so.

There's no point in joining the religion. There's nothing to be afraid of.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Sorry guess I'am being a little bit redundant, its just that he's just not real good a separating the two. I really respected and enjoyed the JW's I worked with and I know now that they often get lied about so perhaps I'm a little too compelled to stick up for them.


If you're really just sticking up for whom you consider to be "the little guy" I'm totally with you, and appologize for my previous comments. I just found myself wondering if this was another GoChiefs attack. My bad.

[HemiEd]

So how do they feel about polygamy?

[DMAC]

I haven't read that up there, and have missed a few pages that I don't care to read at the moment, but...

They believe there is no rapture and Jesus was just a good man, correct?

[Hammock Parties]

They believe there is no rapture and Jesus was just a good man, correct?

No rapture, but Jesus was dynomite!

[LiL stumppy]

The Watchtower organization basically predicted the world would end in each of those years.

They are part of the UN and yet have preached for years that they are "no part of this world."

http://www.freeminds.org/ will provide you with more info.


They didn't predict the world would end in 1914. Jesus Christ was declared king of the Heavens. This was not only a prophesy, but was foretold by many humans studying the biblical scripture's a long time before it happened. After Jesus was resurrected, the prophesy at Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled in him "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: 'Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.'" Then there was a waiting period. How long? In the 19th century, sincere Bible students calculated the waiting period would end in 1914. Now if your asking how they calculated that, listen. Gods ruler ship began to be "trampled on by the nations" is 607 B.C.E when Jerusalem( which were followers of Jehovah and "sat on Jehovah's throne.) was conquered by the Babylonians. So there was no more Jehovah's throne, on earth, his people were conquered. So would wrongful people who won't worshipers of Jehovah sit on the throne for ever? No, for the Prophosey of Ezekiel said in regarding Jerusalem's last king, Zedekiah "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown....It will certainly become no one's until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." And the only one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Jesus Christ. So the "trampling" would end when Jesus became King. Now back to how they calculated the period of waiting time. The account in Danial chapter 4 knows how long that period would last. It relates to a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. In his dream. he saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An Angel declared: "Let Seven times pass over it." In the Bible, tress are occasionally used to represent ruler ship. So the chopping down of the symbolic tree would represent how God's ruler ship, as expressed through the kings of Jerusalem, would be interrupted. So this vision noted, that when Jehovah's kingdom was "trampled on" and 7 times after that, would be when Jesus became King, and the Devil was casted out of the Heavens. So how long is "seven times?" In revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." So seven times would last twice as long as that, and would then be 2,520 days. Well from 606 1/4 B.C.E to 1914 is alot long than 2,520 days isn't it? Here is why. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speaks of "a day for a year", so that would mean it would be 2,520 years. The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E, when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davdic king was taken off his throne. That period then ended in October 1914, which would mark the start of the "end of this system." And just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King would be marked by dramatic world developments. And does anyone know what happened in 1914? World War I?

[Hammock Parties]

They didn't predict the world would end in 1914.

http://www.jwfiles.com/falsifies.htm

Perhaps the most frequently repeated lie in the Watchtower Society's (WTS) publications is that from 1876 onwards - 38 years before 1914 - they forecasted that 1914 marked the START of "the conclusion of the system of things".

In support the WTS often quotes the Bible Examiner. This paper was published by one George Storrs (1796-1879) who greatly influenced Charles Russell the first president of the WTS. Russell wrote in the Bible Examiner of 1876 an article called Gentile Times: When Do They End? This article is frequently referred in WTS publications but has never been quoted in full for obvious reasons.

We are quoting below an extract from this article to show that what WTS now says about what Russell actually wrote in 1876 is dishonest. Russell referring to the Gentile Times as a period of 2520 years wrote:

At the commencement of our Christian era, 606 years of this time had passed…which deducted from 2520, would show that the seven times would end in 1914…We will ask, but not now answer, another question: If the Gentile Times end in 1914, (and there are many other and clearer evidences pointing to the same time) and we are told that it shall be with fury poured out; a time of trouble such as never was before, nor ever shall be; a day of wrath etc., how long before does the church escape? as Jesus says, "watch that ye may be accounted worthy to escape those things coming upon the world".

Bible Examiner October 1876 pp. 27-28

The fact is that the article by Russell does not and could not have referred to 1914 as the START of the "conclusion of the system of things". Russell firmly believed that "the conclusion of the system of things" (also called the "time of the end") began in 1799, and that Christ came invisibly in 1874 and that the church would "escape" before 1914. It was taught by Russell almost right up to 1914, that 1914 was going to be the END of the "system of things".

[SLAG]

Sorry Slag, I have to agree with them on this, even Satan is refered to as a god and so was Paul.

For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him. -1 Corinthians 8:5-6

So are u saying that You agree with them that Jesus Was Not God? or that My Verse was lacking?



Suggested Reading:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

[Mile High Mania]

When I was a kid... maybe 10 or 11, there were a bunch of us riding bikes in our neighborhood. We were perched on top of this hill figuring out what to do next when we were approached by traveling bible toting folks. I don't know if they were JW or not, but I'd put $ on it.

Anyway, there were 2 or 3 of them and about 5 of us... they spread out around us and began doing their thing. I was raised in the baptist church and this was tactic was very foreign to me and I was not comfortable at all. Plus, it was a nice day and I wanted to ride my bike.

Anyway, after about 3 minutes, they asked us to bow and pray. Well, as they all bowed... I picked my feet up, released the brake and coasted downhill to freedom.

Midway down the hill, I turned back (as I began peddling faster) and I noticed that they didn't appear to realize that I had left. About 5 seconds later, I guess they realized as they were shouting at me to come back.

Uhhh, I passed on that one buddy. I saw my friends about an hour later and those guys stayed there and talked to them for 30 minutes. Crazy.

[Hammock Parties]

Anyway, after about 3 minutes, they asked us to bow and pray. .

Not JWs.

[LiL stumppy]

http://www.jwfiles.com/falsifies.htm

I am sure it's totally correct coming from a site who main purpose is to bash the religion. That whole website, is exactly like your post. Ridiculous.

[Mile High Mania]

Here is my contribution to the thread...

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jWshPH_jsjQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jWshPH_jsjQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[LiL stumppy]

When I was a kid... maybe 10 or 11, there were a bunch of us riding bikes in our neighborhood. We were perched on top of this hill figuring out what to do next when we were approached by traveling bible toting folks. I don't know if they were JW or not, but I'd put $ on it.

Anyway, there were 2 or 3 of them and about 5 of us... they spread out around us and began doing their thing. I was raised in the baptist church and this was tactic was very foreign to me and I was not comfortable at all. Plus, it was a nice day and I wanted to ride my bike.

Anyway, after about 3 minutes, they asked us to bow and pray. Well, as they all bowed... I picked my feet up, released the brake and coasted downhill to freedom.

Midway down the hill, I turned back (as I began peddling faster) and I noticed that they didn't appear to realize that I had left. About 5 seconds later, I guess they realized as they were shouting at me to come back.

Uhhh, I passed on that one buddy. I saw my friends about an hour later and those guys stayed there and talked to them for 30 minutes. Crazy.

Not JW's, sounds like Mormons.

[Hammock Parties]

I am sure it totally correct coming from a sight who main purpose is to bash the religion.

If you don't believe me will you believe...THE WATCHTOWER?


The date of the close of that 'battle' is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874.
Zion's Watch Tower, 15 January 1892, page 1355


We see no reason for changing the figures--nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.
Zion's Watch Tower, 15 July 1894, page 1677

The Scriptures show that the second presence [of the Lord] was due in 1874 . . . . This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874.
--The Watch Tower, 1 March 1923, page 67

Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874.
--The Watch Tower, 1 January 1924, page 5

[Planetman]

"Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

[BigVE]

Wow, Lost in the Mall, how is it that you have become SO enlightened and so much smarter than all others, so much so that YOU are the lone authority on this subject? How is it that you, with ALL your years of life experience know what WE all need to be looking out for and what WE should be thinking? If we were to listen to YOU then we would be as stupid as anyone else BLINDLY following the words of emotion of ANY other man who's sole purpose is to bash and flame someone/something from which he has been scorned or shunned. Sorry, I'm VERY familiar with JW's, NON JW's and thier beliefs and although there is some bit's of truth to some of your statements, most of your opinionated diatribe is nothing more than that: your opinion based on your limited pitiful little views. Fact is there are freaks and extremists in all religions, pick and choose the ones you want to preach about but don't expect to do OUR thinking for us. How many posts do you have in this thread alone? And YOUR "free" now? Sounds like your all ate up with guilt or something and are venting to try to ease your conscience (for whatever reason) by garnering support from others who will (or will not) easily take your side.

[Planetman]

Someone needs a valium.

[htismaqe]

If you don't believe me will you believe...THE WATCHTOWER?

You have to admit that it's a little freaky.

They predicted the world to end in October 1914, and Archduke Ferdinand was shot and killed in June of that year.

[BigVE]

You have to admit that it's a little freaky.

They predicted the world to end in October 1914, and Archduke Ferdinand was shot and killed in June of that year.


Isn't that the month that World War 1 or The Great War started? Most would not argue that that was certainly a turning point in man's history and that it wasnt a turn for the posiitive either. It's all in how you look at it I guess.

[C-Mac]

So are u saying that You agree with them that Jesus Was Not God? or that My Verse was lacking?



Suggested Reading:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

The bibles I've read seem very clear about who God was and who Jesus was. So no I dont believe that Jesus was God, rather that he was Gods son, his "firstborn".

[BigMeatballDave]

It seems to me, to be a Jehovah, you must be completely UNAmerican.

[Hammock Parties]

It seems to me, to be a Jehovah, you must be completely UNAmerican.

I don't know why they suddenly decided it was OK for everyone to vote. :rolleyes:

[BigVE]

It seems to me, to be a Jehovah, you must be completely UNAmerican.


Do you mean the America where we ALL have the freedoms of speech and religion and where we all have the right/freedom to believe what we want and the America where you have the right to YOUR opinion but it's ok for me to have mine even if it's different?

[Hammock Parties]

More flip-flopping.

The Watchtower of November 1, 1999 just came out with an article that has implications considering the recent efforts by the Society to gain acceptance and legal recognition in a number of European countries, some of which insisted that for a religion to be recognized by the state, they must allow their people to vote. While some are touting this as a change of policy, it may simply be words to placate the governments.

The context of the whole discussion makes it clear that voting in politics is plainly WRONG for the Jehovah's Witness, but in certain situations they are allowed to compromise their faith and act out the process for the sake of the government. Likely, this "tolerance" will only apply in such countries. Time will tell.

Randy Watters

The May 15, 1964 Watchtower, page 308 states:

"To mature Christians, the question of what attitude should be taken in the matter of political elections presents no issue. In totalitarian countries oftentimes people are forced by law to go to the election polls and sometimes persons are even picked up at home and brought to the polls. Even in certain democracies the law makes it compulsory for the citizens to go to the election places. In no country do Jehovah’s witnesses take part in politics. They are not of this world. (John 17:14) Therefore they do not take part in voting at elections. They do not compromise their neutral standing in matters of politics, however, if they go to the polls and make the ballot void in some manner, either by crossing it out or by putting down, for example, the words “For God’s Kingdom.” That is telling what he is for. By doing this their ballot will become void; it will not count in the election of a man. They have complied with the law and gone to the polls and likely avoided punishment."

[BigMeatballDave]

For anyone that cares, I was a Jehovah's Witness for 19 years. Went to meetings, went out in service rappin' on doors, all that BS. I really had to act like a complete retard during meetings to get my parents to finally relent and let me out of the whole circus. It is a VERY LARGE part of the reason I am the way I am, if that helps you understand me at all.

HOWEVER...

Not everything listed here is true. I'll add another post here in a few minutes separating the bullcrap - which actually, in some cases, further weakens the JW's as an organization. It is my opinion they are losing money and support and won't last much longer.LMAO Well, that ****ing explains everything!

[C-Mac]

I don't know why they suddenly decided it was OK for everyone to vote.

Again based on zero facts...... :rolleyes:

[Hammock Parties]

Again based on zero facts...... :rolleyes:

Oh, I just posted the facts.

[BigVE]

Oh, I just posted the facts.


Although YOU may worship at the tabernacle of R Meyers, some of us don't accept his words as full authority.

[HonestChieffan]

Anything posted on the Mange is suspect and probably wrong. Buch of freaking losers anyway.

[C-Mac]

Oh, I just posted the facts.
Sorry, when you posted "I don't know why they suddenly decided it was OK for everyone to vote" I thought you were stating that JW's vote now.

[BigMeatballDave]

One last thing - calling JW's a "cult" seems off to me. Maybe I am still a little bit brainwashed, but Catholics seem to be more "cultish" to me, IMO. There's certainly a lot more dogma.Sounds like freakin' cult to me.

[Hammock Parties]

I thought you were stating that JW's vote now.

Some of them do. It's now allowed.

[C-Mac]

Some of them do. It's now allowed.

Man you really know your JW stuff.
Wonder why you didnt post this damaging article Mr. Watters felt "implicated" this great flip flop in their teaching so that we all could come to the same conclusion?

[Hammock Parties]

Man you really know your JW stuff.

Why is this such an issue for you? It's a fact. My father is a practicing JW. He informed me. It's also on their wikipedia page. Are you happy now? Do you want the telephone number for the society so you can ask them yourself?

[go bo]

Bahhaha this is ridiculous. I am not even going to get into because I don't care what anyone be leaves. But I scrolled down and picked 5 out of the numbering part and all were completely in accurate and not true. I mean seriously, your making things up, using your background in the congregation as a reference in the so they believe that you know what your talking about and are correct. Not surprising thats its from you though.let me guess, you were raised as a jw and still believe in the organization (which is not a church)...

you're free to believe whatever they tell you if you like...

you can diss go chiefs however you want, but the fact that he's no longer a jw and is free to speak out about that organization doesn't diminish his credibility in the least bit...

in fact, it strengthens go chiefs's credibility because he is speaking from personal experience...

my wife's sister and her family joined gw over 20 years ago and raised her children within the organization...

in the early years, they cut off all contact with all of their relatives...

they finally started to open contact with their family and act "normal"
most of the time...

so i offer my opinion based on my personal experience and the experience of my wife's family over a period of 20 years or so...

it's a cult...

sorry, but that's what it is...

[go bo]

All hardcore religions are kinda nuts imo. I beleive in god and Jesus Christ, but the hardcores take it way to far. For them, if you dont beleive in exactly what they tell you to beleive, then your going to hell, its just that simple for them.

THey do not want you to think for yourself, ONly what they want you to beleive in. If i interpret something a meaning in the bible other then what they think its wrong. I once told them, god gave me free will, i can interpret it how i want. is it right? i dont know, but to say yours is the right way and mine is wrong, is also wrong.

I do not beleive in a certain denomination.i prefer fifties, but i will accept twenties if that's all you have...

[Hammock Parties]

it's a cult...

sorry, but that's what it is...

Still need to smoke some weed. :D

[keg in kc]

Regardless of your...history on the board, I think you deserve some credit for having the balls to talk about this. It sounds like you're genuinely speaking from the heart, from your personal experiences, and that takes courage.

[mdstu]

Saw a documentary on JW's on PBS. Very interesting. The two major topics were the whole blood transfusion issue and their history during WWII.

The fact that Hitler put them in the camps and then offered to let them go if they renounced their faith, and they refused gave me a new found respect for those door to door freaks.

[LiL stumppy]

let me guess, you were raised as a jw and still believe in the organization (which is not a church)...

you're free to believe whatever they tell you if you like...

you can diss go chiefs however you want, but the fact that he's no longer a jw and is free to speak out about that organization doesn't diminish his credibility in the least bit...

in fact, it strengthens go chiefs's credibility because he is speaking from personal experience...

my wife's sister and her family joined gw over 20 years ago and raised her children within the organization...

in the early years, they cut off all contact with all of their relatives...

they finally started to open contact with their family and act "normal"
most of the time...

so i offer my opinion based on my personal experience and the experience of my wife's family over a period of 20 years or so...

it's a cult...

sorry, but that's what it is...


So you have a problem with an organization because of your family who changed their ways. It was their decision to quit talking to you. And Go chiefs has no credibility because its obvious he doesn't like the organization, so he will bash it. No matter if your prove him wrong, no matter what, he will always be right (he thinks) because he hates it so much. So call it what you want, I really could care less.

[keg in kc]

No matter if your prove him wrong, no matter what, he will always be right (he thinks) because he hates it so much. So call it what you want, I really could care less.Similar to how, no matter what evidence you provide, no matter what, someone with the opposite view will always believe themselves right, because they're indoctrinated.

[LiL stumppy]

Similar to how, no matter what evidence you provide, no matter what, someone with the opposite view will always believe themselves right, because they're indoctrinated.


Not true, ask pr_capone.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't see how anyone can possibly defend the organization. They lie, they cover up those lies, they screw up, and they are hypocrites about the whole thing.

[keg in kc]

Not true, ask pr_capone.Every religious or political thread in the history of this board says you're incorrect, sir.

[Spott]

I don't see how anyone can possibly defend the organization. They lie, they cover up those lies, they screw up, and they are hypocrites about the whole thing.


Are you insinuating that Carl is a Jehovah?

[QuikSsurfer]

Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.
http://www.dvdactive.com/images/reviews/screenshot/2003/6/life_of_brian_r2_02.jpg

[Hammock Parties]

Are you insinuating that Carl is a Jehovah?

This is one of the funniest posts in my five years on the planet.

[C-Mac]

Why is this such an issue for you? It's a fact. My father is a practicing JW. He informed me. It's also on their wikipedia page. Are you happy now? Do you want the telephone number for the society so you can ask them yourself?

There you go with the "its a fact" thingy again, though you dont really provide anything but merely someones opinion....mostly your own. You know, just because my dad was a chemistry\physics teacher doesnt automatically give me "knowledge authority" over anyone else discussing science. Saying "my dad said so" is evasive and proof of little. You also should know that Wikipedia is not much of a credible source because anyone can make changes to the information at any time. I will call my JW friend if I deem it necessary to sort the all facts. Look I dont care if you disagree with a particular churches teachings but it offends me when someone uses this format to push there own inaccurate biased agenda on others, especially when there is likely no JW's here to refute your spill. Thats why I continued to post, basically in their behalf on what I do know about their beliefs. I'm sure your dad would be proud to know that you are on here spewing ridicule against what means so much to him. You could show at least a little respect and decency for the person who provided life for you and feeds and shelters you but unfortunately this all all about you.

[LiL stumppy]

Every religious or political thread in the history of this board says you're incorrect, sir.

Once again, ask pr_capone. I am open to many things.

[keg in kc]

Once again, ask pr_capone. I am open to many things.Human nature is to believe what you believe and the hell with what anyone else has to say. Whether you're for religion, against religion, or staunchly sitting on fence. It's the way we are.

My point was that your own tone and comment reflected exactly what you accused goatcheese of doing. During a conversation, that kind of hostility is not a characteristic of an open mind.

[Hammock Parties]

There you go with the "its a fact" thingy again, though you dont really provide anything but merely someones opinion....mostly your own.

WTF.

Yeah, I'm lying. My father's lying. All the evidence on the internet? Total bullshit.

You're insane. You seriously act like I just make all this crap up. I WAS ONE. I have just as much credibility as your little friends, except MY MIND IS OPEN.

[Skip Towne]

WTF.

Yeah, I'm lying. My father's lying. All the evidence on the internet? Total bullshit.

You're insane. You seriously act like I just make all this crap up. I WAS ONE. :shake:
He's not insane. You are doing the same thing here that you do with your WPI articles. Just reading other people's columns and combining them into your own.

[Hammock Parties]

He's not insane. You are doing the same thing here that you do with your WPI articles. Just reading other people's columns and combining them into your own.

Dear god.

[Skip Towne]

Dear god.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[Hammock Parties]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Hohohohohohohohohohohohoho!

[LiL stumppy]

WTF.

Yeah, I'm lying. My father's lying. All the evidence on the internet? Total bullshit.

You're insane. You seriously act like I just make all this crap up. I WAS ONE. I have just as much credibility as your little friends, except MY MIND IS OPEN.


Actually, I will never believe anything I read on internet.

[C-Mac]

WTF.

Yeah, I'm lying. My father's lying. All the evidence on the internet? Total bullshit.

You're insane. You seriously act like I just make all this crap up. I WAS ONE. I have just as much credibility as your little friends, except MY MIND IS OPEN.
Your father isnt here to speak up in his behalf but it would sure be neat to hear his side. The internet is.... well the internet. The JW's appear to have have only one official website but you refuse to use it to quote your facts against them. I would get absolutely reemed if I started a thread here saying "The truth about Catholics" and then post a bunch of quotes from different anti-Catholic fanatic websites. Sure I could honestly say I was Catholic for 26 years, but that doesnt automatically make me the official "truth about Catholics" spokesman. You can only go so far with resentful opinions.

[Hammock Parties]

Sure I could honestly say I was Catholic for 26 years, but that doesnt automatically make me the official "truth about Catholics" spokesman. You can only go so far with resentful opinions.

So basically I'm a ****ing liar. Terrific.

I mean, I DEBUNKED CLAIMS ABOUT THE JWS THAT WERE FALSE. Gimme a break.

[C-Mac]

So basically I'm a ****ing liar. Terrific.

I mean, I DEBUNKED CLAIMS ABOUT THE JWS THAT WERE FALSE. Gimme a break.

Why didn't you edit all the garbage out before you even posted it? How can you feel good quoting someone who you admit is innaccurate and is hell bent on spreading lies about an organization or its people. You alligned yourself with him when you do such things so why should I give you a break? You want the world to know that you dont agree with the JW's and you will do what ever necessary to have others feel the same way.

[Hammock Parties]

Why didn't you edit all the garbage out before you even posted it?

In order to educate people.

You need to seriously lighten up.

[Adept Havelock]

So basically I'm a ****ing liar. Terrific.

I mean, I DEBUNKED CLAIMS ABOUT THE JWS THAT WERE FALSE. Gimme a break.


You can't win this Gochiefs, and unless you enjoy tilting at windmills I suggest you just leave with the thanks of those that posted them.

IMO, C-Mac has chosen to defend the JW's as he's convinced himself they are poor little victims of your eeee-ville fru-ets of the deh-ville.

In CP language, you're the debbil, and he's on another crusade. I've been down this same path with him a few times debating Science. IIRC, he also chose to defend Young Earth Creationism, which is about the same time I stopped taking him seriously.

That said, if you enjoy it, go for it. It's been an amusing exchange to follow.

[C-Mac]

In order to educate people.

You need to seriously lighten up.

OK You got me there....educate them how?

[Hammock Parties]

OK You got me there....educate them how?

I am done with you.

[C-Mac]

You can't win this Gochiefs, and unless you enjoy tilting at windmills I suggest you just leave with the thanks of those that posted them.

IMO, C-Mac has chosen to defend the JW's as he's convinced himself they are poor little victims of your eeee-ville fru-ets of the deh-ville.

In CP language, you're the debbil, and he's on another crusade. I've been down this same path with him a few times debating Science.

That said, if you enjoy it, go for it. It's been an amusing exchange to follow.

I find it amusing that just because of your religious intolerance, you give allowance for mis-represenation and incorrectness as long as it fits ones personal agenda or opinion.

[LiL stumppy]

I am done with you.

Why? How would posting a bunch of lies educate people?

[C-Mac]

I am done with you.

I would give up too if I was in the corner as long as you were. Well good luck with your "I hate the JW religion" campaign.

[C-Mac]

Why? How would posting a bunch of lies educate people?
Got me... :shrug:

[C-Mac]

... he also chose to defend Young Earth Creationism, which is about the same time I stopped taking him seriously.

Hey, you altered your post....what the heck is "Young Earth Creationism"

[Adept Havelock]

I find it amusing that just because of your religious intolerance, you give allowance for mis-represenation and incorrectness as long as it fits ones personal agenda or opinion.

Regardless of your personal beliefs, if you don't give allowance for mis-representation and incorrectness due to someone's personal agenda or opinion, you're a f***ing moron. JMO.

From where I'm sitting, I'm skeptical about some of what GoChiefs says because I know of his emotional investment caused by his experience with the Doortodoorites.

I'm also skeptical of your defense, as I've seen you defend some pretty absurd comments because of your emotional investment in your faith.

I don't really give a flip if you choose to believe the world was created by Jehovah in 6 days, or sneezed out of the left nostril of the Great Green Arkleseizure. Whatever floats your boat. :shrug:

Yes, I mock. I mock pretty much everything, always have, always will. Even things I take very seriously. If that offends, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

IIRC, you started taking the side of Young Earth Creationism in the same thread you were defending the literal truth of Noah's flood. I spent several pages of posts in attempting to get a straight answer of where the water came from and where it went. The best response you had was God magicked it up. Like I said, at that point I stopped taking you seriously. I'm fairly confident it's mutual. Again, whatever floats your boat.

As has already been said, I'm done here. Have a nice evening.

[C-Mac]

Regardless of your personal beliefs, if you don't give allowance for mis-representation and incorrectness due to someone's personal agenda or opinion, you're a f**ing moron. JMO.

Like I've said, I don't really give a flip if you choose to believe the world was sneezed out of the left nostril of the Great Green Arkleseizure. Whatever floats your boat. :shrug:

Yes, I mock. I mock pretty much everything, always have, always will. Even things I take very seriously. If that offends, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

IIRC, you started taking the side of Young Earth Creationism in the same thread you were defending the literal truth of Noah's flood. I spent several pages of posts in attempting to get a straight answer of where the water came from and where it went. The best response you had was "God magicked it up". Like I said, at that point I stopped taking you seriously. I'm fairly confident it's mutual. Again, whatever floats your boat.

As has already been said, I'm done here. Have a nice evening.
You still didnt share what "Young Earth Creationism" is or means but I can assure you that you will never find a post from me that even remotely suggests the that the earth was created in 6 literal days and I would also love to see my post where I stated "God magicked it up". You obviously have me confused with another poster, but maybe like you say I need to practice allowing for mis-representation and incorrectness.
:D

[go bo]

Why didn't you edit all the garbage out before you even posted it? How can you feel good quoting someone who you admit is innaccurate and is hell bent on spreading lies about an organization or its people. You alligned yourself with him when you do such things so why should I give you a break? You want the world to know that you dont agree with the JW's and you will do what ever necessary to have others feel the same way.no, the organization and it's adherents do a very good job of making others feel the same way...

generally speaking the jw's that i know are pretty crazy and no fun to be around (of course they don't want to be fun)...

just curious, but why haven't any of you jw supporters responded to the very specific points that go chiefs discussed?

you are armed with righteous indignation and arrogance...

go chiefs is armed with the truth in this match up...

so why don't one of you go ahead and tell us exactly where go chiefs is incorrect when he cites the watchtower literature to support his views on the organization...

you don't answer any of his questions, instead you attack him and say really hateful things about anyone who questions your beliefs, particularly when it's a former member who has escaped...

you try to make out that it's just go chiefs with these views and ignore the fact that there lots of people, both former jw's and the friends and family of jw's who speak from their own experience and who all agree with go chiefs...

[Logical]

23. You cannot buy girl Scout cookies ROFLROFLROFL

Those little bitches are doing Satan's work.

[go bo]

ROFLROFLROFL

Those little bitches are doing Satan's work.too-shay, too ****in shay!! LMAO LMAO LMAO

[Logical]

I might ask a practicing JW when that situation arrises but there is no doubt that someone like you who is was supposedly raised by JW's yet disagrees, has no respect for the facts when pushing their own personal agenda. Again your UN comment holds no merit. I would stick to writing football stories because all understand that they are mostly based upon opinion and at least I can respect that.I don't understand why you seem to care so much. So what if he is being negative about a religious group you are not a member of, seems weird you care.

[go bo]

wierd, that's it...

[melbar]

I grew up as a witness and out of the 101 I counted 51 outright lies or serious misrepresentations. Several others were on the border because of questionable language.

[alnorth]

*shrug* the whole debate seems bizarre to me. I dont understand why one form of sorcery is more or less believable than another.

[crazycoffey]

this thread is as boring as the 10pm thread...

[Mr Luzcious]

I think we can all just agree that the JW's are nuts, and stop debating about why.

[DomerNKC]

i think you are ALL nuts.

[phobia's skidmark]

masters, we all nee to realize that people are people. they all have little poolets, which may contain little bits of corn, or a tomato seed, or apple skin. But when it comes down too it, we are all the same no matter what we believe. And our poop does stink masters, it does.

[C-Mac]

I don't understand why you seem to care so much. So what if he is being negative about a religious group you are not a member of, seems weird you care.

If you go back and read my posts you would see that I had several JW's as employess. They were my best employee's, very honest and hard working. I obviously talked with them and read some of their literature and I gained a new appreciation and respect for them. In the past I had been told many things about their beliefs only to find out much of it simply wasnt true nor accurate representation. When GoChiefs posted all those lies I felt compelled to stand up of for them. Just my nature I guess.

[C-Mac]

no, the organization and it's adherents do a very good job of making others feel the same way...

generally speaking the jw's that i know are pretty crazy and no fun to be around (of course they don't want to be fun)...

just curious, but why haven't any of you jw supporters responded to the very specific points that go chiefs discussed?

you are armed with righteous indignation and arrogance...

go chiefs is armed with the truth in this match up...

so why don't one of you go ahead and tell us exactly where go chiefs is incorrect when he cites the watchtower literature to support his views on the organization...

you don't answer any of his questions, instead you attack him and say really hateful things about anyone who questions your beliefs, particularly when it's a former member who has escaped...

you try to make out that it's just go chiefs with these views and ignore the fact that there lots of people, both former jw's and the friends and family of jw's who speak from their own experience and who all agree with go chiefs...

I guess you have never heard disgrutled employees say things about their boss that were total misrepresantations and lies. I have several times, even about myself. So you miss my main point. Why post a bunch of lies along with "some" truths about anyone or subject? There is no one here that would let it slide if it was posted the same way about them personally. What is there to gain from that? Not all agree with GoChiefs, there have been several others on this thread who claimed association with JW's that refuted him but he did not respond to them, so its a bit unfair to just pick and chose. I clearly stated in my posts where I thought the misrepresenation came from and where I'm from, "opinion" does not equal "fact". If I missed it, show me and I will respond to it. GoChiefs has the right to dislike the JW's, but he doesnt have the right to willfully misrepresent them in spite. You have every right to believe what you want about this and I know two observers can see two different things. Maybe I'm missing something, but you can be sure I would stand up for you just the same.

[Hammock Parties]

When GoChiefs posted all those lies I felt compelled to stand up of for them.

:rolleyes:

[InChiefsHeaven]

I've known other JW's besides the one I mentioned before, and they are indeed honest hard working people, at least on the surface. So, I don't say that JW's are evil or bad, but their religion is. Denying the Trinity pretty much does it for me. They do teach that Jesus was "crucified" on a pole, not a cross. Shunning people who fall away does not seem to be in step with Christ's teachings about forgiveness and charity, but I suppose that is a matter of opinion. The amount of required study of the Watchtower tract is perhaps the most ominous thing, talk about man made tradition. The WTBTS has only been around for like 200 years or so. They do require cult like separation from others, unless it is to "witness".

I am not a JW, nor am I a former JW. I (like many of us here) have come in contact with a few, and with the exception of one, I found them to be by and large very likable people, seemingly honest etc. But I also know that, just like anything else, they are not going to air the "harder to understand" portions of their faith until you are much closer to joining it. They use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, and I believe that is exclusive to the JW's. Add to that this one page from their site, and it's enough to make me realize that these guys are...well...nutty as fruitcakes:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm

Nice people, but nutso. Pray for them if you are so inclined.

[Hammock Parties]

Add to that this one page from their site, and it's enough to make me realize that these guys are...well...nutty as fruitcakes:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm


I seriously don't have an issue with any of that stuff. Maybe the holidays thing is extreme, but to me it seems to fall in line with biblical teachings if that's the way they want to interpret them. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the bible could explain why the stuff on that page is erroneous. Seems perfectly logical to me.

[InChiefsHeaven]

I seriously don't have an issue with any of that stuff. Maybe the holidays thing is extreme, but to me it seems to fall in line with biblical teachings if that's the way they want to interpret them. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the bible could explain why the stuff on that page is erroneous. Seems perfectly logical to me.

Well, it all does indeed come down to interpretation of scripture, which is where all the splits in Christianity are based. The "for instance" that I would point to is that of the birthday thing. They cite two areas in the bible where birthdays are celebrated, and interpret that to mean that God does not find birthday celebrations pleasing and in fact they are of the devil. Since it does not say anything of the sort in scripture, they are taking it as they choose to see it. That's fine I suppose, there is nothing in scripture that says we ARE supposed to celebrate birthdays, but likewise nothing says we are NOT supposed to celebrate birthdays. The bit about Christ being crucified on a pole rather than a cross flies in the face of history. Anyone who knows anything about Roman crucifixion knows that the Romans used crosses in order to crucify people, and Jesus was just another one of their victims. Crucifixion is a strangling process, and is set up to be a long slow death of slow strangulation on a cross. I don't have time to go into it, but it's true, I guess you'd have to look it up.

The Trinity...is a much longer argument than the one they propose. I don't have the time or energy to go into it. The explanation of the Trinity (God in 3 persons, but still only one God) is indeed biblical, but it's very deep.

Just like anything else, a person must do their research. The answers are out there, but they are not necessarily small easy little bites of info.

[Hammock Parties]

The bit about Christ being crucified on a pole rather than a cross flies in the face of history. Anyone who knows anything about Roman crucifixion knows that the Romans used crosses in order to crucify people, and Jesus was just another one of their victims. Crucifixion is a strangling process, and is set up to be a long slow death of slow strangulation on a cross. .

This would seem to shed some light on it.

http://freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm

Also, heh:

While the Christian church has never considered the exact method of Jesus' crucifixion or impalement as a major concern, the WT has certainly made an issue of it. In doing so, they hold true to their pattern of majoring in minor issues; often distracting their followers from more important issues.

And LMAO at this bit of flip-flopping

Up until the late 30's the WT pictured Christ as dying on the traditional cross.

[StcChief]

I just tell them to get off my property.

[InChiefsHeaven]

I just tell them to get off my property.

My wife does the same. I usually say God Bless, I'm praying for you all and politely close the door. Unless I see them coming...in which case I don't even bother to open the door.

[crazycoffey]

I know what to do!
Stab them in the face!




With a Crucifix!

[alnorth]

I know what to do!
Stab them in the face!




With a Crucifix!

Why? Would Garlic, a stake in the heart, or silver bullets do nothing?

Wait, I forget... what's the mortal weakness for JW's?

[crazycoffey]

Why? Would Garlic, a stake in the heart, or silver bullets do nothing?

Wait, I forget... what's the mortal weakness for JW's?


I'd have to check the interweb manual on the JW weakness to be sure, but I'm almost positive it's either the crucifix stab or just over analysis and harsh criticism of their writing skills.....

[Hammock Parties]

Wait, I forget... what's the mortal weakness for JW's?

Just introduce them to porn.

[Redrum_69]

Maybe we could have a Chiefsplanet fundraiser event..for Gochiefs..and use all the funds collected to pay off Jehovahs Witnesses to take him back...so he can be their attention whore.

[Hammock Parties]

Maybe we could have a Chiefsplanet fundraiser event..for Gochiefs..and use all the funds collected to pay off Jehovahs Witnesses to take him back...so he can be their attention whore.

You better be paying ME to go back.

[Redrum_69]

You better be paying ME to go back.


You should write a Jehovahs Witness weekly column on WPI.


Some of your best articles could be how Jesus watches the Chiefs play on Sunday, after church. Maybe you could have a 20 question interview with Jesus.

better yet...Pre-game and post game interviews with Chiefs players hosted by you dressed up like Jesus..

[Hammock Parties]

Pre-game and post game interviews with Chiefs players hosted by you dressed up like Jesus..

LMAO

That would be funny shit...doubt the Chiefs would allow it though. Tightasses.

[Oxford]

Knock on my door, Christmas Day at 9am.
Had just gotten back from Midnight mass (at 1:30am), who can that be?
(Must be a problem, heard the dogs barking, must be out).
Go to the door and open it, immediately the house alarm goes off.
I run and turn it off, go back to the door and it was 2 witnesses.
Arrrrrrrrghhhhhh.....

Told them they had 30 seconds to vacate my property or I was letting the dogs out into the yard.

End of problem. Never had another one.

[go bo]

I guess you have never heard disgrutled employees say things about their boss that were total misrepresantations and lies. I have several times, even about myself. So you miss my main point. Why post a bunch of lies along with "some" truths about anyone or subject? There is no one here that would let it slide if it was posted the same way about them personally. What is there to gain from that? Not all agree with GoChiefs, there have been several others on this thread who claimed association with JW's that refuted him but he did not respond to them, so its a bit unfair to just pick and chose. I clearly stated in my posts where I thought the misrepresenation came from and where I'm from, "opinion" does not equal "fact". If I missed it, show me and I will respond to it. GoChiefs has the right to dislike the JW's, but he doesnt have the right to willfully misrepresent them in spite. You have every right to believe what you want about this and I know two observers can see two different things. Maybe I'm missing something, but you can be sure I would stand up for you just the same.are you seriously suggesting that all the people who have escaped from jw are no more than just disgruntled employees?

disgruntled? i would think so, in a martin luther sort of way...

employees? not even close...

so, thousands upon thousands who have either been disfellowshipped or who have successfully escaped on their own are all wrong and lying and making up things about their former boss, the governing body...

gee, why don't we see every person who has left the catholic church carry on like this?

and every person, every single person who criticizes a church that they used to attend is wrong and lying and making things up about their former church?

or is it that former jw's are the only group who act like disgruntled employees after they leave the organization?

i have no beef with you personally, but my family and my wife's family have all had direct experience with the jw organization over the last half century...

and we still have one family that hasn't gotten completely disgruntled yet...

but the former jw members in our extended families are clearly disgruntled and all say pretty much the same bad things about their experience...

jw members are for the most part very nice people when they are dealing with people from another religions or a prospective member...

it's the elders and the governing body and their version of "christianity" that i take exception to...

and i particularly dislike having family members torn away from all of their family and friends until they start to think for themselves and become disgruntled...

i apologize to you for anything i might have said here that offended you...

that was not my intention...

this is just a real sore spot for me...

[LiL stumppy]

Why was there even a need to make a thread like this. Are you really that ignorant that you can't talk about football in a football forum, you have to bring up things that offend other people? Do you not have enough class to quit posting stupid threads like this? I mean, who cares? I came on here for football, not to listen to a hypocrite talk about religion.

[C-Mac]

are you seriously suggesting that all the people who have escaped from jw are no more than just disgruntled employees?

disgruntled? i would think so, in a martin luther sort of way...

employees? not even close...

so, thousands upon thousands who have either been disfellowshipped or who have successfully escaped on their own are all wrong and lying and making up things about their former boss, the governing body...

gee, why don't we see every person who has left the catholic church carry on like this?

and every person, every single person who criticizes a church that they used to attend is wrong and lying and making things up about their former church?

or is it that former jw's are the only group who act like disgruntled employees after they leave the organization?

i have no beef with you personally, but my family and my wife's family have all had direct experience with the jw organization over the last half century...

and we still have one family that hasn't gotten completely disgruntled yet...

but the former jw members in our extended families are clearly disgruntled and all say pretty much the same bad things about their experience...

jw members are for the most part very nice people when they are dealing with people from another religions or a prospective member...

it's the elders and the governing body and their version of "christianity" that i take exception to...

and i particularly dislike having family members torn away from all of their family and friends until they start to think for themselves and become disgruntled...

i apologize to you for anything i might have said here that offended you...

that was not my intention...

this is just a real sore spot for me...

I'm only suggesting that when truths get distorted and when lies and mis-represenation are used to court others to your side, something is seriously wrong. I cant believe that anyone thinks that good things come from such a slanderous angle. If you disagree with a church then why not just leave it, why would you have to go and align yourself with others who feel it necessary to spread lies for their cause? BTW The Protestant religions protested the Catholic church on a scale would tower the ex-JW's so much that they arent even a blip on the radar. So please dont try and make a mountain out of a tiny molehill. You havent offend me, I'm pretty thick skinned. I too try not to offend anyone and be fair in all things. The thread said "The truth about JW's" but the article GoChiefs started this thread over, as he himself admits, was full of lies. I just felt compelled bring this to the fore.

[HonestChieffan]

Most Bronco fans are JW

[trndobrd]

are you seriously suggesting that all the people who have escaped from jw are no more than just disgruntled employees?

disgruntled? i would think so, in a martin luther sort of way...

employees? not even close...

so, thousands upon thousands who have either been disfellowshipped or who have successfully escaped on their own are all wrong and lying and making up things about their former boss, the governing body...

gee, why don't we see every person who has left the catholic church carry on like this?

and every person, every single person who criticizes a church that they used to attend is wrong and lying and making things up about their former church?

or is it that former jw's are the only group who act like disgruntled employees after they leave the organization?

i have no beef with you personally, but my family and my wife's family have all had direct experience with the jw organization over the last half century...

and we still have one family that hasn't gotten completely disgruntled yet...

but the former jw members in our extended families are clearly disgruntled and all say pretty much the same bad things about their experience...

jw members are for the most part very nice people when they are dealing with people from another religions or a prospective member...

it's the elders and the governing body and their version of "christianity" that i take exception to...

and i particularly dislike having family members torn away from all of their family and friends until they start to think for themselves and become disgruntled...

i apologize to you for anything i might have said here that offended you...

that was not my intention...

this is just a real sore spot for me...


Are you suggesting that everyone who escapes (a bit derisive, don't you think?) is disgruntled or harbor ill will?

[munkey]

Why was there even a need to make a thread like this. Are you really that ignorant that you can't talk about football in a football forum, you have to bring up things that offend other people? Do you not have enough class to quit posting stupid threads like this? I mean, who cares? I came on here for football, not to listen to a hypocrite talk about religion.

Then why reply/argue? There is a thing called "ignore" you can use....You could also choose not to reply period. IMO your posting on this thread is rather...strange when you read everything.

~I've actually thought about putting gc on iggy but this thread, like others is rather entertaining IMO~

[munkey]

I'm only suggesting that when truths get distorted and when lies and mis-represenation are used to court others to your side, something is seriously wrong. I cant believe that anyone thinks that good things come from such a slanderous angle. If you disagree with a church then why not just leave it, why would you have to go and align yourself with others who feel it necessary to spread lies for their cause? BTW The Protestant religions protested the Catholic church on a scale would tower the ex-JW's so much that they arent even a blip on the radar. So please dont try and make a mountain out of a tiny molehill. You havent offend me, I'm pretty thick skinned. I too try not to offend anyone and be fair in all things. The thread said "The truth about JW's" but the article GoChiefs started this thread over, as he himself admits, was full of lies. I just felt compelled bring this to the fore.

You, my man have spent way to much time on the thread.

GET A LIFE. I seriously don't care if the people you employee are JW's or Catholic or Protestant. I wouldn't spend my afternoon arguing with someones point of view for all the tea in China...In fact I find it almost strange you do...

[Hammock Parties]

The thread said "The truth about JW's" but the article GoChiefs started this thread over, as he himself admits, was full of lies.

Lies which, for the most part, I corrected. Thanks for the compliment.

The important part of this thread is the first post.

[alanm]

In order to educate people.

You need to seriously lighten up.
Why do you feel the need to educate us? :hmmm:

[Hammock Parties]

Why do you feel the need to educate us? :hmmm:

I saw that list at the Mane and thought it would be nice to sort out what's right from what's not. But mostly I wanted people to read the story.

[C-Mac]

You, my man have spent way to much time on the thread.

GET A LIFE. I seriously don't care if the people you employee are JW's or Catholic or Protestant. I wouldn't spend my afternoon arguing with someones point of view for all the tea in China...In fact I find it almost strange you do...

You are correct about that munkey, way too much time. I know its hard to believe but I but I really do have a life. You know, your welcome to stand up for or take a stand for anyone or anything you like, so I'm note sure why it should bother you so much if others choose do the same.

[go bo]

Are you suggesting that everyone who escapes (a bit derisive, don't you think?) is disgruntled or harbor ill will?show me one jw who has left the organization and still has nice things to say about the organization and it's policies... (or maby two, if you count go chiefs)...

but there are hundreds and hundreds of former jw's who go to some lengths to share their experiences as jw's so that others might avoid the same fate...

yes, in my experience people who have successfully left the jw's have escaped and that's exactly how most of them that i have known described it...

as far as the disgruntled thing, it was c-mac who seemed to be saying that all former adherents who criticize the organization are like disgruntled employees...

that's what i was responding to...

since every former jw i have known has plenty to say which is critical of the organization, they must all be disgruntled using c-mac's criteria...

[BWillie]

I'll chime in on this thread, even though I haven't read any of it yet. One of my friends growing up is a die hard Jehovah's witness. He was always trying to preach to me and get me to convert with his religion, and I didn't really have that big of a problem with it, but what I did see is how his religion was seriously hindering his life.

Basically he could have no fun of any kind. He would not go to parties, celebrate anything of any kind. Could not date girls that were not Jehovah's Witnesses. His strict upbringing and parents made him lack the people skills to make alot of good friends. He had a very lively and outgoing personality, but had no idea how to treat people. He was a good looking guy, and now he is married to a really fat ugly woman. He has never seemed like he truly appreciates his life.

In contrast, another one of my friends had the same upbringing and started to rebell at about 16. Now she is much happier, and says it was the best thing she ever did. She told me for the longest time that she was brainwashed into thinking everything outside of their circle of Jehovah's Witnesses was basically improper and evil.

[C-Mac]

Lies which, for the most part, I corrected. Thanks for the compliment.

The important part of this thread is the first post.

You know, I will compliment you on some of your football journalism, I honestly enjoy reading some of them and will continue to enjoy them.
But there is nothing "important" about a thread labeled "truth" if its chocked full of false misleading opinions that wouldn't even fit the standards of the National Enquirer. You hate the JW church, that's fine and dandy but you trying to make sure everyone feels the same way you do by using bunk information IMO makes you look desperate and foolish. Like someone posted before, most people are capable of making there own decisions with your help. I respect the fact that you harbor such resentment and perhaps deservedly so, but you need to be more mature about it and just move on with that part of your life.

[Hammock Parties]

You hate the JW church, that's fine and dandy but you trying to make sure everyone feels the same way you do by using bunk information IMO makes you look desperate and foolish.

I posted no bunk information....I quoted other sources that were full of bunk information and CORRECTED it. Did I miss a few? Yeah, nobody's perfect. But by and large this thread is indicative of the truth.

You REALLY need to get over this. Just because the people that work for are nice doesn't mean they aren't misled.

[go bo]

Why was there even a need to make a thread like this. Are you really that ignorant that you can't talk about football in a football forum, you have to bring up things that offend other people? Do you not have enough class to quit posting stupid threads like this? I mean, who cares? I came on here for football, not to listen to a hypocrite talk about religion.sorry, it's not really a football forum...

we can all say just about whatever we like...

i'm sorry that you're offended, but nobody held a gun to your head to make you post on this thread...

go talk football on some other thread if you don't like this one...

or talk football on this thread, i don't really care...

but, seriously, how do you think bowe is going to pan out?

i can't wait to see him in action...

i want to see the two new dt's too...

tank and turk, sounds great...

tamba, tank, turk, and tallen...

that sounds even better...

[SLAG]

sorry, it's not really a football forum...

we can all say just about whatever we like...

i'm sorry that you're offended, but nobody held a gun to your head to make you post on this thread...

go talk football on some other thread if you don't like this one...

or talk football on this thread, i don't really care...

but, seriously, how do you think bowe is going to pan out?

i can't wait to see him in action...

i want to see the two new dt's too...

tank and turk, sounds great...

tamba, tank, turk, and tallen...

that sounds even better...

I think bowe will shine as long as the QB get it to him... Huard made lots passes that most had to reach for or fight to get into position...

The DL is Greatly improved with Tank and Turk I feel and we finally have that much needed pressue up the middle.

If allen can keep up good work on and off the field he will earn his money next year...

[C-Mac]

show me one jw who has left the organization and still has nice things to say about the organization and it's policies... (or maby two, if you count go chiefs)...

but there are hundreds and hundreds of former jw's who go to some lengths to share their experiences as jw's so that others might avoid the same fate...

yes, in my experience people who have successfully left the jw's have escaped and that's exactly how most of them that i have known described it...

as far as the disgruntled thing, it was c-mac who seemed to be saying that all former adherents who criticize the organization are like disgruntled employees...

that's what i was responding to...

since every former jw i have known has plenty to say which is critical of the organization, they must all be disgruntled using c-mac's criteria...

My point was simply suggesting a balanced fair view, why is that such a conundrum? Some people who feel slighted or wronged have a tendency to twist or stretch the truth to get your sympathy. I have seen it happen many times. According to GoChiefs this ex-JW Randall Watters guy is posting a bunch of false info along with a little truth to get others to side with him. Yet you cant see any parallel? Are your suggesting that there is no other side to a coin? That there is no such thing as a happy JW"s unless they have "escaped"? I honestly respect your own personal experiences you share and can sympathize but I'm also wise enough to respect the fact that there is always two sides to a story.

[go bo]

I think bowe will shine as long as the QB get it to him... Huard made lots passes that most had to reach for or fight to get into position...

The DL is Greatly improved with Tank and Turk I feel and we finally have that much needed pressue up the middle.

If allen can keep up good work on and off the field he will earn his money next year...no no no...

it's not allen, it's tallen...

tamba, tank, turk and tallen...

see?

(ok ok, it's a dumb joke, but i'm tired)...

[Hammock Parties]

According to GoChiefs this ex-JW Randall Watters guy is posting a bunch of false info along with a little truth to get others to side with him.

WRONG.

Randall Watters didn't post that list to the internet. Someone who was most likely misinformed did.

"A little truth" is an erroneous statement. MOST of that list is true.

[trndobrd]

show me one jw who has left the organization and still has nice things to say about the organization and it's policies... (or maby two, if you count go chiefs)...

but there are hundreds and hundreds of former jw's who go to some lengths to share their experiences as jw's so that others might avoid the same fate...

yes, in my experience people who have successfully left the jw's have escaped and that's exactly how most of them that i have known described it...

as far as the disgruntled thing, it was c-mac who seemed to be saying that all former adherents who criticize the organization are like disgruntled employees...

that's what i was responding to...

since every former jw i have known has plenty to say which is critical of the organization, they must all be disgruntled using c-mac's criteria...



Trndobrd

[C-Mac]

I posted no bunk information....I quoted other sources that were full of bunk information and CORRECTED it. Did I miss a few? Yeah, nobody's perfect. But by and large this thread is indicative of the truth.

You REALLY need to get over this. Just because the people that work for are nice doesn't mean they aren't misled.

There is absolutely nothing for me to get over, its you who needs to get over something or you wouldnt have started this goofy thread in the first place. Perhaps these folks are mislead but it sure cant be any worse than being persuaded by the likes of this Watters guy or his fabricating friends.

[go bo]

My point was simply suggesting a balanced fair view, why is that such a conundrum? Some people who feel slighted or wronged have a tendency to twist or stretch the truth to get your sympathy. I have seen it happen many times. According to GoChiefs this ex-JW Randall Watters guy is posting a bunch of false info along with a little truth to get others to side with him. Yet you cant see any parallel? Are your suggesting that there is no other side to a coin? That there is no such thing as a happy JW"s unless they have "escaped"? I honestly respect your own personal experiences you share and can sympathize but I'm also wise enough to respect the fact that there is always two sides to a story.and some people who feel wronged still tell the truth...

you're right, there's two sides of the coin wrt this story...

on the one hand is active jw's who still believe what they've been taught and on the other are former jw's who tell the same story over and over again...

why should i try to take a balanced view when members of my own family have been in and out of jw's and they all say the same thing once they are free?

no, my view is very personal and based on my own experience with both current jw's and former jw's...

and in my view, the watchtower organization is a cult...

[Hammock Parties]

Perhaps these folks are mislead but it sure cant be any worse than being persuaded by the likes of this Watters guy or his fabricating friends.

Persuaded? Gimme a friggin' break. I already knew most of this shit.

The majority is TRUE. That fact seems to have escaped you.

[go bo]

Trndobrdonly one?

no, seriously, i've never known any former jw who has had good things to say about their experience, you're the first...

really, no kidding...

the first...

in 50 years...

[C-Mac]

and some people who feel wronged still tell the truth...

you're right, there's two sides of the coin wrt this story...

on the one hand is active jw's who still believe what they've been taught and on the other are former jw's who tell the same story over and over again...

why should i try to take a balanced view when members of my own family have been in and out of jw's and they all say the same thing once they are free?

no, my view is very personal and based on my own experience with both current jw's and former jw's...

and in my view, the watchtower organization is a cult...

A balanced view is just good practice for all. Were good. :thumb:

[HolmeZz]

This is another ****ed up thing. You can't date anyone just for fun. It has to be uber-serious.

And how does that effect you?

[Hammock Parties]

And how does that effect you?

Uh...I never dated anyone while I was growing up. You think maybe that affected me a little bit?

[C-Mac]

Persuaded? Gimme a friggin' break. I already knew most of this shit.

The majority is TRUE. That fact seems to have escaped you.

Well I was speaking about any who may read it, not you. Your correct, in your opinion the majority was true and I can assure you that this fact has not escaped me.

[Logical]

Why was there even a need to make a thread like this. Are you really that ignorant that you can't talk about football in a football forum, you have to bring up things that offend other people? Do you not have enough class to quit posting stupid threads like this? I mean, who cares? I came on here for football, not to listen to a hypocrite talk about religion.

In fairness to GoChiefs this is a silly post. This BB has never been a football only BB and if you want one there are others that provide that for you. 2nd if you don't like this thread's subject there are plenty of others available to you to select from. Finally GoChiefs as a long standing member has the right to post on a subject that has bothered him and influenced his life.

[HolmeZz]

Uh...I never dated anyone while I was growing up. You think maybe that affected me a little bit?

You weren't getting dates anyway. It was probably best for your psyche that you could attribute it all to being a Jehovah's Witness.

[Hammock Parties]

You weren't getting dates anyway. It was probably best for your psyche that you could attribute it all to being a Jehovah's Witness.

Gee thanks. Because certainly the fact that I absolutely ruled out dating any girl in junior high and high school means giving it a try would have met with similar results.

[C-Mac]

In fairness to GoChiefs this is a silly post. This BB has never been a football only BB and if you want one there are others that provide that for you. 2nd if you don't like this thread's subject there are plenty of others available to you to select from. Finally GoChiefs as a long standing member has the right to post on a subject that has bothered him and influenced his life.

Thats very true reguardless of the facts. ;)

[HolmeZz]

Gee thanks. Because certainly the fact that I absolutely ruled out dating any girl in junior high and high school means giving it a try would have met with similar results.

No bout a doubt it.

[Hammock Parties]

No bout a doubt it.

At the very least it would have given me some experience of rejection.

[Smed1065]

Gee thanks. Because certainly the fact that I absolutely ruled out dating any girl in junior high and high school means giving it a try would have met with similar results.

So you messed UP?

You suck because I have messed up and still got some........

Cats are scared.

pussy afraid of pussy. IMO.

[Smed1065]

Gee thanks. Because certainly the fact that I absolutely ruled out dating any girl in junior high and high school means giving it a try would have met with similar results.

IF YOU A SCared of a lay, you R sorry. With your dream girl or not!@

[Hammock Parties]

IF YOU A SCared of a lay, you R sorry. With your dream girl or not!@

I asked ONE girl out in college.

She said yes.

[LiL stumppy]

Uh...I never dated anyone while I was growing up. You think maybe that affected me a little bit?

I dont think that had anything to do with your beliefs...

[HolmeZz]

I asked ONE girl out in college.

She said yes.

What was the question?

[LiL stumppy]

In fairness to GoChiefs this is a silly post. This BB has never been a football only BB and if you want one there are others that provide that for you. 2nd if you don't like this thread's subject there are plenty of others available to you to select from. Finally GoChiefs as a long standing member has the right to post on a subject that has bothered him and influenced his life.

Why post information that you have to change about 75% of to make it correct? Why feel the need? I mean honestly look at the post, can't buy girl scout cookies? Are you serious??? This thread is so mis-leading, and people on here have no idea about the religion, so they believe what he is saying,because he "used to be a jw."

[Hammock Parties]

I mean honestly look at the post, can't buy girl scout cookies? Are you serious???

Read the thread again. I clearly stated that was FALSE.

[Hammock Parties]

What was the question?

"Do you want to go out some time?"

In her defense, she was drunk. And I was menacingly sitting in her apartment on her couch.

[Hammock Parties]

I dont think that had anything to do with your beliefs...

It had everything to do with it.

JW's are not allowed to marry outside the religion. Dating is only supposed to take place when you are seriously courting someone for marriage.

[C-Mac]

Read the thread again. I clearly stated that was FALSE.
Then why was it so important to even post it? All it does is verify the guy is clueless.

[Hammock Parties]

Then why was it so important to even post it? All it does is verify the guy is clueless.

There may or may not have been people who believed these things. That list was posted at the Mane verbatim. I educated them, too.