Dotel to atlanta??? RUMOR [Archive]

Sure-Oz

07-30-2007, 03:45 PM

www.mlbtraderumors.com

Braves Close To Acquiring Dotel For Davies
UPDATE: Word via the Kansas City Star is that the Royals will get Kyle Davies in the deal. The Teixeira trade needs to be finalized first though. Nice job by Dayton Moore.

Interesting development via Ken Rosenthal: the Braves are close to a deal for Royals' closer Octavio Dotel. They apparently have made a better offer than finalists Cleveland and Los Angeles.

Royals GM Dayton Moore knows his way around Atlanta's farm system, of course. He had all kinds of player development roles within the Braves organization. The Braves' top three prospects heading into the season per Baseball America were Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Elvis Andrus, and Matt Harrison. With those three out of the picture perhaps Moore is going for outfielder Brandon Jones or first baseman Scott Thorman.

Quite a day for Atlanta...now to snag a starter...

_________________________________________________________

http://www.kansascity.com/385/v-print/story/211348.html

Posted on Mon, Jul. 30, 2007
Royals talking to Braves about trading Dotel for pitcher Kyle Davies
By BOB DUTTON
The Kansas City Star
MINNEAPOLIS | The Royals appeared to ready to trade veteran closer Octavio Dotel to the Atlanta Braves on Monday afternoon for right-handed starter Kyle Davies.

Neither club has yet offered official confirmation, although several sources indicated a deal was tentatively in place.

“It’s inappropriate for me to comment on any deal that may or may not happen,” Royals general manager Dayton Moore said. “When and if there is a deal, we’ll make an announcement.”

The holdup appears to be on the Braves’ end and concerns their ability to work out final details on a trade earlier in the day in which they acquired first baseman Mark Teixeira and reliever Ron Mahay from the Rangers for catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia, shortstop Elvis Andrus and two pitching prospects.

The non-waiver trading deadline is 3 p.m. Tuesday. The Royals continue to discuss trade possibilities with other club in case talks break down with the Braves.

The Dodgers, Indians and Mariners have strongly pursued Dotel, who entered Monday’s series opener against the Twins at 2-1 with a 3.91 ERA and 11 saves in 14 opportunities since returning May 22 from the disabled list.

Davies, 23, has spent parts of the last three seasons in the Braves’ rotation but has yet to reach their projection of a front-line starter. He was demoted recently to Class AAA Richmond after going 4-8 with a 5.76 ERA in 17 starts.

Davies was the Braves’ fourth-round pick in 2001 as a 17-year-old and reached the majors in 2005. He is a combined 14-21 with a 6.15 ERA in 52 games, including 45 starts, in parts of three seasons.

© 2007 Kansas City Star and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.kansascity.com

Silock

07-30-2007, 03:48 PM

We need to get more than 1 player for him.

beavis

07-30-2007, 03:49 PM

KK just mentioned that they had talked to Dotel, and he said he was told he was about to be traded.

Over on kcroyals.com, they are saying the trade is for "Kyle Davies, Manuel Acosta and Lillibridge". I still haven't seen anything official, so take it for what it's worth.

pr_capone

07-30-2007, 03:50 PM

LMFAO

The Royals got bent over.

Kyle Davies is the 2 or 3 man in KC. He would be the 2 or 3 man in most other clubs AAA team.

Sure-Oz

07-30-2007, 03:50 PM

What does everyone think of this possible deal?

sedated

07-30-2007, 03:51 PM

what do we know about these guys?

positions? anything?

chiefqueen

07-30-2007, 03:51 PM

First he raids their players, next year their front office.

sedated

07-30-2007, 03:53 PM

Davies has yet to reach their projection of a front-line starter. He was demoted recently to Class AAA Richmond after going 4-8 with a 5.76 ERA in 17 starts.

He is a combined 14-21 with a 6.15 ERA in 52 games

wtf?

Silock

07-30-2007, 03:53 PM

What does everyone think of this possible deal?

Davies' stats are terrible. That's what I think.

Sure-Oz

07-30-2007, 03:53 PM

Davies supposedly was their best pitcher out of the minors a few years ago, seems like he was brought up too soon and has taken his lumps. Not sure what to think unless SEA wasn't going to pony up Balentien (sp?).

ROYC75

07-30-2007, 03:54 PM

Doesn't sound like a very good deal to me....... Stability vs potential ?

Sounds like a reach....... Detel said he didn't want to go anywhere. Happy in KC.......

Demonpenz

07-30-2007, 03:55 PM

Figures. the only good players moore has is the one's baird picked.

tk13

07-30-2007, 03:57 PM

This is NOT final. The Brave have apparently turned up the heat, but I think some of these rumors have taken off a bit too much. The 2B mentioned in the deal was a Baseball America top 100 guy if I'm not mistaken though, he projects to be an everyday 2nd baseman.

Jayson Stark was supposedly saying that the Braves were one of the final teams in the hunt, but Moore hadn't taken an offer yet and was still trying to convince the Mariners to give up Wladimir Balentien.

nychief

07-30-2007, 03:57 PM

LMFAO

The Royals got bent over.

Kyle Davies is the 2 or 3 man in KC. He would be the 2 or 3 man in most other clubs AAA team.

you know nothing.

GoHuge

07-30-2007, 03:58 PM

I'm not sure what to think of this deal. I'd like to trust Dayton that this is a really good deal. Doesn't make since to me, but I'm not a baseball GM.

Now we get Zack closing which is what I've been waiting for.

gblowfish

07-30-2007, 03:58 PM

He can't be worse than Elarton or O Perez.

Greinke's stats as a starter the last couple years have been awful too.
But we know he's a good pitcher, and is taking lumps.

Hell, look at how many lumps Detroit starting pitchers took before they got good?

Sure-Oz

07-30-2007, 03:59 PM

This is NOT final. The Brave have apparently turned up the heat, but I think some of these rumors have taken off a bit too much.

Jayson Stark was supposedly saying that the Braves were one of the final teams in the hunt, but More hadn't taken an offer yet and was still trying to convince the Mariners to give up Wladimir Balentien.
I really hope SEA re-considers, cause id rather try that then Davies....

ChiTown

07-30-2007, 04:00 PM

LMFAO

The Royals got bent over.

Kyle Davies is the 2 or 3 man in KC. He would be the 2 or 3 man in most other clubs AAA team.

No. He could, however, battle it out for the 5th spot in the rotation.

Meche
Bannister
De La Rosa
Perez
???

This would be a gawdawful trade if it's true. You are correct though, we would be getting bent over if this is the actual trade.

beavis

07-30-2007, 04:00 PM

This is NOT final. The Brave have apparently turned up the heat, but I think some of these rumors have taken off a bit too much. The 2B mentioned in the deal was a Baseball America top 100 guy if I'm not mistaken though, he projects to be an everyday 2nd baseman.

Jayson Stark was supposedly saying that the Braves were one of the final teams in the hunt, but More hadn't taken an offer yet and was still trying to convince the Mariners to give up Wladimir Balentien.
Is that premium content or something? I hadn't seen it.

If the deal with the Braves goes through, it had better not just be a one for one swap.

tk13

07-30-2007, 04:05 PM

It was premium content... I don't have access to it but it was posted and quickly removed from Royals Corner, haha.

That was the gist of it... not that we're going to get Balentien but Dayton hadn't given up on it yet... supposedly he wasn't in the lineup the last couple days, so it's not dead. I definitely don't think it'll be a 1-for-1 trade if we deal with the Braves though.

Sure-Oz

07-30-2007, 04:08 PM

tk13

07-30-2007, 04:11 PM

Pitt Gorilla

07-30-2007, 04:12 PM

Lillibridge has to be a part of the deal. He would open at 2nd for us as early as next year.

pr_capone

07-30-2007, 04:13 PM

I'd agree that the Dodgers and Seattle probably need him more. Schuerholz is just being aggressive I think, although their bullpen has had a few hiccups, nothing too severe. I don't think the Braves want to see the Mets win the division for the 2nd straight year... I think that's just the long and short of it, they're out to win now.

Agreed. I would not be surprised to see Matt Diaz or perhaps even Andrew Jones (then the Braves keep Matt in Left and Harris moves to Center) go in a trade to get some more starting pitching.

Coach

07-30-2007, 04:14 PM

Why would the braves want dotel so bad? I think it makes more sense for the dodgers or seattle.

Their closer is 38, and isn't as good as he used to be. So the Braves are still in the thick of the pennant race in the NL East, and bullpen help is one of their priorities, especially the closer position.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 04:23 PM

petegz28

07-30-2007, 04:27 PM

This looks like a hose job to me. This kids stats suck.

cmh6476

07-30-2007, 04:32 PM

i imagine dayton knows the atlanta farm system just about as well as anyone :shrug:

petegz28

07-30-2007, 04:40 PM

No. He could, however, battle it out for the 5th spot in the rotation.

Meche
Bannister
De La Rosa
Perez
???

This would be a gawdawful trade if it's true. You are correct though, we would be getting bent over if this is the actual trade.

We are gtting bent over. A top nothc closer for a potential #5 starter?

pardon me while I go :banghead:

I thought Baird was gone?

Pitt Gorilla

07-30-2007, 04:49 PM

We are gtting bent over. A top nothc closer for a potential #5 starter?

pardon me while I go :banghead:

I thought Baird was gone?Top-notch? I'm not sure I would put him in the top 15 in MLB.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 04:51 PM

Top-notch? I'm not sure I would put him in the top 15 in MLB.

Well at this point in time I must say you are wrong. Otherwise no one would want him.

keg in kc

07-30-2007, 04:52 PM

Top-notch? I'm not sure I would put him in the top 15 in MLB.Seriously.

Is there another Dotel on the roster? Maybe I have them confused.

ChiTown

07-30-2007, 04:57 PM

Hard to believe it could just be Davies.

I obviously trust Moore to make the right call with Atlanta anyway, but if the Braves have outbid Seattle/LA/Cleveland, we can't just be getting this one guy, even if he was a highly regarded prospect a year or two ago.

from rotoworld:

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer reports that the Mariners offered Wladimir Balentien to Kansas City before the Royals picked the Braves' offer of Kyle Davies for Octavio Dotel.

Interesting. Though he's still hardly a sure thing, Balentien offers 35- or 40-homer potential and has come a long way this year. While we like the current deal for the Royals, we would have gone with Balentien over Davies.

:cuss:

petegz28

07-30-2007, 04:58 PM

from rotoworld:

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer reports that the Mariners offered Wladimir Balentien to Kansas City before the Royals picked the Braves' offer of Kyle Davies for Octavio Dotel.

Interesting. Though he's still hardly a sure thing, Balentien offers 35- or 40-homer potential and has come a long way this year. While we like the current deal for the Royals, we would have gone with Balentien over Davies.

:cuss:

This makes no sense to me at all. We have a lot of "potential" talent at pitcher in the minors already. We need bats.

This is not one of Moore's finer moments as far as I am concerned.

siberian khatru

07-30-2007, 04:58 PM

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:03 PM

The team with no power turns down a potential power bat......brilliant.

You aren't going to win in the AL with a bunch of Mark Teahen singles hitters and no power.

KevB

07-30-2007, 05:06 PM

According to the Seattle P-I, Moore could've had Balentien from the Mariners, but turned them down for Davies instead.

*sigh*

I really wanted Balentien and his power bat. But I guess Moore went with the guy he knows rather than the one he doesn't. And we do need starting pitching. I just hope a change of scenery will boost Davies. Wish we could've gotten Lillibridge, too.

How do we know we didn't get Lillibridge? It's not a done deal, or perhaps a fully reported deal. The Star says Dotel for Davies, but they may just be throwing out the "notable" names and not the full details.

HolmeZz

07-30-2007, 05:06 PM

Kyle Davies is awful.

Gotta question Moore's GM prowess if he'd seriously prefer Davies to Balentien.

KevB

07-30-2007, 05:06 PM

The team with no power turns down a potential power bat......brilliant.

You aren't going to win in the AL with a bunch of Mark Teahen singles hitters and no power.

You're also not going to win it with Odalis Perez in your starting rotation. The R's have more than one hole, and you can only fill one at a time.

siberian khatru

07-30-2007, 05:07 PM

If it's just Davies, it's far less than what San Diego got for Scott Linebrink. It's similar to what we got for Ambiorix Burgos last year -- Brian Bannister. Now, Bannister's turned out pretty good so far, but Dotel has far more value than Burgos.

I just think this is Moore being too comfortable with his Atlanta roots. You know, Dayton, there are other organizations out there with good prospects.

HolmeZz

07-30-2007, 05:07 PM

How do we know we didn't get Lillibridge? It's not a done deal, or perhaps a fully reported deal. The Star says Dotel for Davies, but they may just be throwing out the "notable" names and not the full details.

Lillibridge is a light hitting middle infielder. He doesn't justify Davies over Balentien.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:08 PM

How bad is it when people are saying this is a good trade because a change of scenery MAY help Davies and Moore is keeping his foot in the door with the Braves?

WTF????

I guess the recent winning streak was too much for Moore to handle?

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:08 PM

Hi my name is Dayton Moore and I say "F**k you Kansas City"!!!

siberian khatru

07-30-2007, 05:09 PM

How do we know we didn't get Lillibridge? It's not a done deal, or perhaps a fully reported deal. The Star says Dotel for Davies, but they may just be throwing out the "notable" names and not the full details.

If Lillibridge is part of the deal, I'll feel better. There was talk elsewhere in Rumorville that it might be a 3-for-1 deal with Davies, Lillibridge and a power reliever from the minors.

FringeNC

07-30-2007, 05:11 PM

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:11 PM

If Lillibridge is part of the deal, I'll feel better. There was talk elsewhere in Rumorville that it might be a 3-for-1 deal with Davies, Lillibridge and a power reliever from the minors.

Why does that make you feel better? Are you saying this Lumdson or whatever the kid's name is we got from the Sox, the over-hyped Hochaver and others aren't worth a shit?

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:12 PM

You're also not going to win it with Odalis Perez in your starting rotation. The R's have more than one hole, and you can only fill one at a time.

Kyle Davies has been no better than Perez, that's the point. This isn't a dominant potential pitcher here.

If the Royals played in the NL they could win with this whole no power thing, in the AL not so much. Even the other "small market" teams that don't spend money have power.

It's really sad this teams HR record is still 36 and didn't even get broken in the steroid era.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:14 PM

The way it is sounding Moore is doing Atlanta a favor in hopes of a return favor later down the road.

homey

07-30-2007, 05:18 PM

you all are high. the royals most pressing need is starting pitching

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:19 PM

you all are high. the royals most pressing need is starting pitching

Ok....so why are we going after Davies?

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:20 PM

you all are high. the royals most pressing need is starting pitching

And it's not helped by taking back a guy who sucks.......you don't improve a problem by taking more crappy guys back, especially when other teams offer better.

Even the Twins who everyone said won with pitching have guys who can hit and hit for power....who on this Royals team can really hit, all the OF bats are actually liabilities they don't produce and even average AL clips.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:22 PM

And it's not helped by taking back a guy who sucks.......you don't improve a problem by taking more crappy guys back, especially when other teams offer better.

Even the Twins who everyone said won with pitching have guys who can hit and hit for power....who on this Royals team can really hit, all the OF bats are actually liabilities they don't produce and even average AL clips.

I agree we need more power in the lineup. Shealy is a bust so far. Buck has fallen back to a .230 hitter granted he is still better...Teahen is batting a hollow .280 and I am not sure how long Pena will continue batting this well.

But oh well let's get another bust with potential at pitcher.

OmahaChief

07-30-2007, 05:24 PM

This could also all be posturing. Moore needs to get something on the front burner and fast to drive the market up on teams like LA that are deep with talent that he really seems to want. I hope that is what he is doing because I will be pissed if all we give is some guy with a 6 ERA in return. Hell, we could just pick up Elaraton again if we are that desperate.

Stewie

07-30-2007, 05:28 PM

Jack-Ass Harry just reported this deal. I'm not sure if it's done. He didn't give any details.

Archie Bunker

07-30-2007, 05:30 PM

Buddy Bell says no deal yet.

leviw

07-30-2007, 05:30 PM

Balentien strikes out once every four at bats. Big league pitching will eat him up.

I'm guessing most of you "stat experts" are the same ones who were pissed at Moore signing Meche and trading Burgos.

cmh6476

07-30-2007, 05:32 PM

i think we ought to wait and see who else we got before the ship is finally sunk

the beltran trade was just a few prospects at one point...

DJ's left nut

07-30-2007, 05:33 PM

If all you guys get for Dotel is Kyle Davies, you got boned.

I'm an NL guy, so I know more about them than I do the AL folks. Davies is bad and he has fallen out of favor with the Braves. Think of him as a worse version of Jason Marquis and that's what you get.

The guy will likely get dealt for a backup 2b in the offseason or something. He'd better not be the principal player coming back your way. As a KC native, I'd like to see the royals do well....this does not help that cause.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:37 PM

Also if a pitcher has a 6 ERA in the NL it's going to be even worse in the AL....

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:37 PM

i think we ought to wait and see who else we got before the ship is finally sunk

the beltran trade was just a few prospects at one point...

still is

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:38 PM

Also if a pitcher has a 6 ERA in the NL it's going to be even worse in the AL....

BINGO!

tk13

07-30-2007, 05:38 PM

I think everyone's impatience has finally driven most fans into insanity.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:39 PM

I think everyone's impatience has finally driven most fans into insanity.

22 years since the playoffs and you call someone impatient?

:cuss:

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:41 PM

i think we ought to wait and see who else we got before the ship is finally sunk

the beltran trade was just a few prospects at one point...

That trade still sucks....

tk13

07-30-2007, 05:41 PM

22 years since the playoffs and you call someone impatient?

:cuss:
And we have Exhibit A.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:42 PM

And we have Exhibit A.

So how long is being patient? 50 years?

You would never make it as a Yanks fan.

tk13

07-30-2007, 05:43 PM

I'm referring to the trade deadline... people are so impatient to get a deal done. No trade has even been completed and everybody's having brain seizures over rumors. Geez. Step away from the computer and get a grip. I agree it's possible that we do trade Dotel to the Braves but what is it going to hurt to wait a few hours and see how it plays out instead of acting like we have PMS on steroids.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:45 PM

Just sayin if that is the trade it's a awful awful trade and should be thought of that way.

tk13

07-30-2007, 05:47 PM

So how long is being patient? 50 years?

You would never make it as a Yanks fan.
I'm not a Yankees fan, so I guess I don't have to worry about that.

You are a pretty dramatic fellow. This trade is not going to be the lone single deciding factor whether this team makes the playoffs. Yeah it can help and hurt, but you act like the entire state of the franchise rests on every little move. That's the kind of patience I'm talking about. Stepping back for a second and waiting to see how something plays out before giving birth to a farm animal over it.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:49 PM

I'm not a Yankees fan, so I guess I don't have to worry about that.

You are a pretty dramatic fellow. This trade is not going to be the lone single deciding factor whether this team makes the playoffs. Yeah it can help and hurt, but you act like the entire state of the franchise rests on every little move. That's the kind of patience I'm talking about. Stepping back for a second and waiting to see how something plays out before giving birth to a farm animal over it.

No it is just a sign of more BS. I liek Moore. His hring is what prompted me to buy season tickets. I have "stepped back" for the last how many years?

And what is being said is Moore is doing this as a favor to Atlanta in hopes for a return favor. Or at least it seems that is the only sense people can make of it on 810.

kstater

07-30-2007, 05:50 PM

Just sayin if that is the trade it's a awful awful trade and should be thought of that way.

So do you actually support the Royals and Chiefs, or just gripe about everything they do?

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:51 PM

So do you actually support the Royals and Chiefs, or just gripe about everything they do?

to gripe is to care :)

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:52 PM

So do you actually support the Royals and Chiefs, or just gripe about everything they do?

As a fan you shouldn't just sit back and buy all the bullshit they send out...if they do something you think is stupid you should say that.

The Royals have been doing stupid things for years I think we have a right to say if we think something is stupid.

tk13

07-30-2007, 05:53 PM

Just sayin if that is the trade it's a awful awful trade and should be thought of that way.
Same for you. I mean, I'm not saying it will 100% be successful, but to say it's a bust of a trade before we see some results, let alone BEFORE THE TRADE IS ACTUALLY COMPLETED is kinda out there. You guys freak out over every little thing. No offense, but you freak out every time a personnel move doesn't go exactly like how you'd done it. And I think you do come up with some great ideas, you're a good poster, but it's your way or the highway. Like the Hali thing, or several other examples. You didn't want Hali so when we took him I recall you saying he was a bust, yadda yadda, he wouldn't beat out Hicks. Just a completely emotional response. You can't do that. Just because it's not the trade you wanted means it was a bad trade. Doesn't mean it's a good trade either, you have to actually see what it is. You can't get all out of whack over these things.

Deberg_1990

07-30-2007, 05:55 PM

Personally, if all we can get for Dotel is crap, then why dont we just hold on to him and try and resign him after the season is over??

petegz28

07-30-2007, 05:56 PM

Mecca

07-30-2007, 05:58 PM

Same for you. I mean, I'm not saying it will 100% be successful, but to say it's a bust of a trade before we see some results, let alone BEFORE THE TRADE IS ACTUALLY COMPLETED is kinda out there. You guys freak out over every little thing. No offense, but you freak out every time a personnel move doesn't go exactly like how you'd done it. And I think you do come up with some great ideas, you're a good poster, but it's your way or the highway. Like the Hali thing, or several other examples. You didn't want Hali so when we took him I recall you saying he was a bust, yadda yadda, he wouldn't beat out Hicks. Just a completely emotional response. You can't do that. Just because it's not the trade you wanted means it was a bad trade. Doesn't mean it's a good trade either, you have to actually see what it is.

Well yes I have a highly emotional moment sometimes I won't lie. I do tend to get into that mode sometimes.

For a guy who is suppose to be one of the top guys out there I don't like the trade. The Royals need everything, they should get something better than a pitcher that has been tried in an organization with a good history of producing young players and failed. It doesn't help that pitchers going from the NL to the AL generally get worse.

I've clarified the Hali thing before I didn't hate him persay I didn't like him at that pick though. I still don't think he's ever going to be a pro bowl type player...hey maybe I'm wrong.

leviw

07-30-2007, 05:58 PM

Personally, if all we can get for Dotel is crap, then why dont we just hold on to him and try and resign him after the season is over??

Great. So when he doesn't sign, you have absoltutely nothing to show for it.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:00 PM

Great. So when he doesn't sign, you have absoltutely nothing to show for it.

Well considering he has come ot publicly wanting an extension with KC I would say we don't have to worry about your scenario.

Simply Red

07-30-2007, 06:00 PM

Why would the braves want dotel so bad? I think it makes more sense for the dodgers or seattle.
Gonzalez is hurt, Wickman has imploded. Soriano is lack-luster as of July.

tk13

07-30-2007, 06:00 PM

Yeah, everybody thought the same thing when we traded Burgos who threw 100 mph for Brian Bannister. All the Mets fans laughing that we traded for garbage like that while Royals fans worried. People get caught up in all the tools and stuff. That's worked out pretty well. We have a quality starter and our bullpen is stronger than it has been in ages.

leviw

07-30-2007, 06:01 PM

Well considering he has come ot publicly wanting an extension with KC I would say we don't have to worry about your scenario.

Hadn't seen that. Link? Not saying it's not true, just missed it.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:01 PM

Deberg_1990

07-30-2007, 06:01 PM

Great. So when he doesn't sign, you have absoltutely nothing to show for it.

Make him a decent deal and he will stay....Oh wait, these are the Royals. They only throw decent money around (Meche) once every 10 years or so..

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:01 PM

Hadn't seen that. Link? Not saying it's not true, just missed it.

www.kcstar.com

read the Royals section. It was an article from last Thursday I believe.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 06:03 PM

tk13

07-30-2007, 06:03 PM

Make him a decent deal and he will stay....Oh wait, these are the Royals. They only throw decent money around (Meche) once every 10 years or so..
No freaking way. Dotel will get something like 3 years, 21 million on the open market. NO WAY we should tie that up in a mid 30's reliever who's missed most of the last 2-3 seasons. That'd be crazy.

tk13

07-30-2007, 06:14 PM

I agree we need a power bat somewhere. But I've always said I want more starting pitching. I think that's worth more than anything.

That's really why we're playing better, even our worst starter, Odalis Perez is pitching competitively the last 2 months, and the entire team is playing a lot better because of it. I'll admit part of it is I trust Dayton so far with starting pitching, he did a great job with Meche and Bannister when everybody thought those were terrible moves. Maybe Davies won't be that guy, but I really don't think it's that hideous of a trade, pitching is worth more than anything to me though. There was a time when Jason Schmidt was a 23 year old prospect who was struggling with a 6.75 ERA for Atlanta too.

Hootie

07-30-2007, 06:17 PM

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:18 PM

I agree we need a power bat somewhere. But I've always said I want more starting pitching. I think that's worth more than anything.

That's really why we're playing better, even our worst starter, Odalis Perez is pitching competitively the last 2 months, and the entire team is playing a lot better because of it. Maybe Davies won't be that guy, but I really don't think it's that hideous of a trade, pitching is worth more than anything to me though. There was a time when Jason Schmidt was a 23 year old prospect who was struggling with a 6.75 ERA for Atlanta too.

well....

A) this isn't the NL
B) Why do you want someone that makes Perez NOT our worst starter?
C) Where is all this other pitching talent we supposedly picked up?
D) When do you ever go for a bat when you keep signing weak pitchers?

Chiefspants

07-30-2007, 06:18 PM

I'm really not sure about this, It would have been great to see a new bat in there, especially when we have Lumsden, Hochever, Wright, and Buckner as pitching prospects that will be called up in the next couple years anyway.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:19 PM

KevB

07-30-2007, 06:23 PM

Oh gee a #3 pitcher.....WOW!!!!

We already have a #3 pitcher

This kid sounds like a total bust. He can't stay up in the majors in the NL. That is bad.

Who did you want instead? I'm tired of this bashing just to bash (we don't even know if a deal will be consumated at this point!). Balentinin (sp?) from Seattle? The guy's never played in the majors! Pro baseball is littered with "can't miss OF power prospects" who never amounted to anything. You're acting like the alternative to Davies is can't miss.

tk13

07-30-2007, 06:23 PM

If we end up with a #3 pitcher and a second baseman out of the deal, I think it's a great deal. You act like we should've gotten a Johan Santana out of this deal.

PinkFloyd

07-30-2007, 06:25 PM

THIS JUST IN !!!!!!!

Royals trade Mike Sweeney to the Giants for a tube of Barry Bonds' steriod cream !!!!!

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:25 PM

If we end up with a #3 pitcher and a second baseman out of the deal, I think it's a great deal. You act like we should've gotten a Johan Santana out of this deal.

Not at all.

Why are you so content to settle for busts? I would rather have this Balentine kid then a "won'tever be better than #3" pitcher.

DaneMcCloud

07-30-2007, 06:25 PM

Oh gee a #3 pitcher.....WOW!!!!

We already have a #3 pitcher

This kid sounds like a total bust. He can't stay up in the majors in the NL. That is bad.

What's wrong with a solid #3 pitcher? Especially someone who's 23 years old and is far from hitting his prime? And essentially for free?

My gut tells me that if this deal goes through, Zach Greinke will be next on the list to be traded, though I do expect Dayton to get quite a bit in return.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:28 PM

What's wrong with a solid #3 pitcher? Especially someone who's 23 years old and is far from hitting his prime? And essentially for free?

My gut tells me that if this deal goes through, Zach Greinke will be next on the list to be traded, though I do expect Dayton to get quite a bit in return.

We already have one. And we just spent all this $ on this Luke Hochaver kid. We got the Lumdson or whatever his name is last year from the Sox.

But you are right, why go for a bat when you can add more mediocre talent to your rotation?

tk13

07-30-2007, 06:29 PM

Okay, you win. He's a bust. Don't even give him a uniform. His career is over at 24, he has no potential left. I'm not gonna sit here and waste my time having an irrational argument over it. I didn't say he wasn't going to be better than a #3 pitcher... I even said there was a time where you would've called Jason Schmidt a 23 year "bust" with a 6.75 ERA for Atlanta. I didn't say a #3 was his ceiling, I said if that's the final result I would be pleased. I obviously hope for more. I think it's a good return for a guy who's barely pitched in two years and couldn't make it out of spring training healthy.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:29 PM

If we trade Grienke right now Moore should be fired. End of story.

I would not of said that at the beginning of this year. But I will now.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:30 PM

DaneMcCloud

07-30-2007, 06:32 PM

We already have one. And we just spent all this $ on this Luke Hochaver kid. We got the Lumdson or whatever his name is last year from the Sox.

But you are right, why go for a bat when you can add more mediocre talent to your rotation?

Hochevar was a number one pick. How long do you think it will be before he even makes it up to the Bigs? Two years? Three? What's wrong with a young, solid pitcher?

Don't forget, it takes TWO teams to make a trade, not one. I certainly think that if there's a better deal out there that Dayton would take it. I think he deserves a little respect for all of the right moves he's made since becoming the GM. I think it's a little too early to begin second-guessing him.

leviw

07-30-2007, 06:33 PM

Yes he can't stay in the majors in the NNL on a team with talent. So let's bring him here and hope he pulls a 180 in the AL where the hitters are a lot tougher.

Great plan.

(he likes your plan chief!)

Why does he have to be up right away?

Why not work him in Omaha for the rest of the year?

PinkFloyd

07-30-2007, 06:33 PM

If we trade Grienke right now Moore should be fired. End of story.

I would not of said that at the beginning of this year. But I will now.

I'm with you... This kid has some wicked stuff, and I really do believe he will someday get back in the rotation... If not --- then he will be a pretty damn good closer...

DaneMcCloud

07-30-2007, 06:36 PM

If we trade Grienke right now Moore should be fired. End of story.

I would not of said that at the beginning of this year. But I will now.

If it were up to you, everybody would be fired everyday. You just like to bitch. More than half of your posts in this forum are about the Royals and more than three quarters of those are negative. I'm guessing you're not too much fun to be around.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Greinke will not have success in Kansas City. Period. He's had too much trauma and I think that he will have better luck in another city.

Greinke does have value around the league and if Davies comes in, it give Moore a chance to bring in some power because his value is much higher than Dotel's.

At some point in the near future, Greinke will go the way of Affedlt and MacDougal. And the Royals will benefit greatly from his departure.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:37 PM

Why does he have to be up right away?

Why not work him in Omaha for the rest of the year?

Gee another player for our farm team. Wow I can hardly contain myself.

I love how we trade away all our ML talent for potential. And now we are talking weak potential as it appears this kid is not cutting the mustard.

3 years up and down. 3 years on a team that provides run support. Maybe by the time he is 30 we can work him into the #5 spot heh?

Simply Red

07-30-2007, 06:39 PM

I have no crystal-ball. I'd venture to guess that Dotel will be a Brave by lunch tomorrow. BUT, But, The Royals will probably get 1st Baseman Scott Thorman as well.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:39 PM

The line on Davies from the Star...
He is a combined 14-21 with a 6.15 ERA in 52 games, including 45 starts, in parts of three seasons.

Pardon me while I go get in line for my playoff tickets.

leviw

07-30-2007, 06:43 PM

The line on Davies from the Star...
He is a combined 14-21 with a 6.15 ERA in 52 games, including 45 starts, in parts of three seasons.

Pardon me while I go get in line for my playoff tickets.

He's 23. Funny thing is, young players get better.

But hey, I'm sure your talent evaluating skills are far superior than Moore or anyone else's in the organization. So preach on.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:46 PM

He's 23. Funny thing is, young players get better.

But hey, I'm sure your talent evaluating skills are far superior than Moore or anyone else's in the organization. So preach on.

Yeah I know...we will waste ML talent so he can spend the next several years going back and forth in the AL. Then we will trade him or leave him in Omaha.

I want a player. If we are going for potential then get someone who has not already shown he is falling short of expectations.

leviw

07-30-2007, 06:51 PM

Yeah I know...we will waste ML talent so he can spend the next several years going back and forth in the AL. Then we will trade him or leave him in Omaha.

I want a player. If we are going for potential then get someone who has not already shown he is falling short of expectations.

I'm just confused how you know he's done developing? Scouts had him has a front-line starter for a reason. Did his stuff simply die?

I assume you've watched him closely over his career, right?

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:55 PM

I'm just confused how you know he's done developing? Scouts had him has a front-line starter for a reason. Did his stuff simply die?

I assume you've watched him closely over his career, right?

I never said he wasn't. I said I want someone who hasn't already shown signs of being a bust.

I guess scouts are never wrong is that it?

Maybe his "stuff" was never good enough fo the majors although it appeared at the time it would be?

So if your going after potential go after someone who is not already showing signs of falling short of what you thought he would be.

I know that logic is hard for some to get a hold of.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 06:56 PM

Is pete being a little silly and unreasonable? Yeah. Am I gonna yell and defend Moore?... Meh, not really because I'm not excited about this trade. I understand we should not expect much at all for a 2 month rental of an old closer whose career is going to collapse and end any year now, but I figured we'd get better than this.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 06:57 PM

Is pete being a little silly and unreasonable? Yeah. Am I gonna yell and defend Moore?... Meh, not really because I'm not excited about this trade. I understand we should expect much at all for a 2 month rental of an old closer whose career is going to collapse and end any year now, but I figured we'd get better than this.

Well considering you share my opinion then I guess you are being silly and unreasonable yourself???

Mecca

07-30-2007, 06:59 PM

Who did you want instead? I'm tired of this bashing just to bash (we don't even know if a deal will be consumated at this point!). Balentinin (sp?) from Seattle? The guy's never played in the majors! Pro baseball is littered with "can't miss OF power prospects" who never amounted to anything. You're acting like the alternative to Davies is can't miss.

That is the worst argument.......that's the argument people used to justify the Dye for Perez trade.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:00 PM

I never said he wasn't. I said I want someone who hasn't already shown signs of being a bust.

I guess scouts are never wrong is that it?

Maybe his "stuff" was never good enough fo the majors although it appeared at the time it would be?

So if your going after potential go after someone who is not already showing signs of falling short of what you thought he would be.

I know that logic is hard for some to get a hold of.

Let's be honest here, you don't know a damn thing about Davies and you'd probably never heard of him a few hours ago. All you know about him came from wikipedia, the KC Star article, and/or baseball reference.com.

Dayton Moore is intimately familiar with the Braves' roster and thinks he represents good value as a larger part of this deal, whatever the deal is. I'll trust him over someone who bitches and moans more than all my exes combined.

leviw

07-30-2007, 07:01 PM

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:02 PM

alnorth

07-30-2007, 07:02 PM

Well considering you share my opinion then I guess you are being silly and unreasonable yourself???

This level of outrage is silly and unreasonable. Greinke being traded = your fired is silly and unreasonable. (For the right price, NO ONE is untradable)

I'm more apathetic than mad about this trade. I'm not sold on the Mariner minor league slugger with the crappy average either, I'm looking at both of these players and thinking "This is it?, No one is offering more?" If thats the case, I guess Dotel wasnt being sought after as much as we were led to believe, which isnt Moore's fault. He's got a choice between two "meh" minor leaguers who are longshots, which is still better than letting Dotel walk. (If the Royals gave him the long-term deal he's asking for, that would be truely idiotic)

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:03 PM

What do you think you are going to get for a 33 year old closer? A 10-2 starter with a 2.30 ERA?

Come on.

A power hitter named Balentein??? And I beleive there was anothr name mentioned I can't recall off th top o my head. There was also a lot of chatter about Big Willy Mo!

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:04 PM

This level of outrage is silly and unreasonable. Greinke being traded = your fired is silly and unreasonable. (For the right price, NO ONE is untradable)

I'm more apathetic than mad about this trade. I'm not sold on the Mariner league slugger with the crappy average either, I'm looking at both of these players and thinking "This is it?, No one is offering more?" If thats the case, I guess Dotel wasnt being sought after as much as we were led to believe, which isnt Moore's fault. He's got a choice between two "meh" minor leaguers who are longshots, which is still better than letting Dotel walk. (If the Royals gave him the long-term deal he's asking for, that would be truely idiotic)

OMG man it's a figure of speech. Moore is the reason I bought my season tickets. Geesh!

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:04 PM

A power hitter named Balentein??? And I beleive there was anothr name mentioned I can't recall off th top o my head. There was also a lot of chatter about Big Willy Mo!

Here it is folks, Willy Mo Pena, a career .250 hitter who couldn't play everyday on one of the worst teams in baseball > the package that is being worked on here.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 07:04 PM

Mecca

07-30-2007, 07:05 PM

Here it is folks, Willy Mo Pena, a career .250 hitter who couldn't play everyday on one of the worst teams in baseball > the package that is being worked on here.

I'd rather have Wily Mo Pena than any OF on our team right now.....that speaks to the shit we run out there.

leviw

07-30-2007, 07:05 PM

A power hitter named Balentein??? And I beleive there was anothr name mentioned I can't recall off th top o my head. There was also a lot of chatter about Big Willy Mo!

Balentein strikes out once every four at bats and has never faced Big League pitching. Talk about wasting a career in Omaha.

Pena can't play the field, very one-deminsional.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:07 PM

I wouldn't hate it if they traded Zack either. The guy has never been successful as a starter, he pitched his way into the bullpen - and granted, he's been great coming out of the pen - but still, he pitched his way in there.

It seems today more than likely that he will be a 4 or 5 in the big leagues who never lived up to his potential, or a pretty effective bullpen pitcher. His value in trade right now is higher than what he's going to turn out to be.

If anybody calls you definitely listen. He's not the property he once was, but I don't think he's ever going to turn out to be what we were hoping he would be, and we could still get a pretty big package for him.

You shouldn't be fired for trading him. You should be fired for refusing to listen to offers.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 07:07 PM

Balentein strikes out once every four at bats and has never faced Big League pitching. Talk about wasting a career in Omaha.

Pena can't play the field, very one-deminsional.

This coming from a team that puts David DeJesus in CF and then will put Emil Brown out there with him.......

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:07 PM

Am I honestly the only one who thinks the Royals entire lineup needs to be overhauled? You aren't going to win in the AL with 0 power, you just aren't. The entire OF is crap by AL standards and so is nearly every other position.

Hey now I have to stop you there. I like DeJesus. Not a lead off hitter and needs to be in LF not CF but is definitely worthy of keeping. Teahen is good but his stick is really starting to get weak.

I can't say Pena is crap either. Needs to cut down on someof the errors but he takes hits away from a lot of batters and if he can bat over .250 then I am fine with that.

I think the biggest thing we need is a real catcher.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:08 PM

I'd rather have Wily Mo Pena than any OF on our team right now.....that speaks to the shit we run out there.

Being better than the crap we have now does not mean he represents good value in this trade.

Why would we trade for him? If we are ever good enough to compete in the AL, we'd be too good to have Willy Mo Pena playing in our outfield.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 07:10 PM

David DeJesus to me is just so blah.....if you can't hit HR's or steal bases or field at a high level...which he doesn't then you better be able to run like the wind and well he doesn't do that either.

I've yet to figure out what he does other than smack some singles, like Mark Teahen. You can't have 2 guys like this in the OF in today's game especially in the AL.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:11 PM

If we end up with a #3 pitcher and a second baseman out of the deal, I think it's a great deal. You act like we should've gotten a Johan Santana out of this deal.

Good series of posts here to inject some sanity.

1. Dotel is leaving in 2 months. If we got either a long term #3 starter or a long term 2B solution for him, that would be fantastic. If we got both, it would be incredible.

2. Pitchers, especially starters are still the most valuable commodity in baseball.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:11 PM

Being better than the crap we have now does not mean he represents good value in this trade.

Why would we trade for him? If we are ever good enough to compete in the AL, we'd be too good to have Willy Mo Pena playing in our outfield.

Now hold on a sec.....we just took 2 of 3 from the Red Sox in Boston. We swept the angels in L.A. We took 2 of 3 from Detroit in Detroit. We swept the Rangers at home.

We can compete if we quit trading away or releasing or not signing our good talent.

We are is this perpetual cycle of always playing for next year. Which is why we never can compete cause we are always building for the future and never for this year.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:12 PM

Good series of posts here to inject some sanity.

1. Dotel is leaving in 2 months. If we got either a long term #3 starter or a long term 2B solution for him, that would be fantastic. If we got both, it would be incredible.

2. Pitchers, especially starters are still the most valuable commodity in baseball.

Pitchers who can pitch at the ML level. Not guys who keep going back and forth cause they just haven't "come around" yet.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 07:14 PM

We can compete if we quit trading away or releasing or not signing our good talent.

We are is this perpetual cycle of always playing for next year. Which is why we never can compete cause we are always building for the future and never for this year.

We are doing exactly what many other teams (Tigers, Twins, Indians, etc etc etc) did to compete and win.

The only problem is that we were led for years by idiots, where we would trade for crap. Now that we are trading to improve our team, theres no reason to instinctively wince and be gun-shy every time a trade is announced. It IS possible for the Royals to be involved in a trade where they arent being screwed.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:14 PM

Now hold on a sec.....we just took 2 of 3 from the Red Sox in Boston. We swept the angels in L.A. We took 2 of 3 from Detroit in Detroit. We swept the Rangers at home.

We can compete if we quit trading away or releasing or not signing our good talent.

We are is this perpetual cycle of always playing for next year. Which is why we never can compete cause we are always building for the future and never for this year.

LMAO You're right dude. This year is our year. We can't afford to lose Dotel before our pennant run. LMAO

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:15 PM

LMAO You're right dude. This year is our year. We can't afford to lose Dotel before our pennant run. LMAO

Look make fun all you want. I am saying and you can't deny that every year we always play for the next year. We have been playing for the future for the last 13 years.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 07:16 PM

Well um the Royals aren't remotely good enough to contend for anything so they have to play for next year...

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:17 PM

We are doing exactly what many other teams (Tigers, Twins, Indians, etc etc etc) did to compete and win.

The only problem is that we were led for years by idiots, where we would trade for crap. Now that we are trading to improve our team, theres no reason to instinctively wince and be gun-shy every time a trade is announced. It IS possible for the Royals to be involved in a trade where they arent being screwed.

I's not wincing at A trade. It's wincing at THIS trade.

Gathright...good trade
Shealy...looking to be not so good
Soria...stellar

Chiefspants

07-30-2007, 07:17 PM

A catcher is one of the last things we need right now, a solid starter or a power hitter are we above in terms of what we need, in fact, are biggest long-ball threat is our current catcher, Buck, whos slammed 16 homers

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:18 PM

Pitchers who can pitch at the ML level. Not guys who keep going back and forth cause they just haven't "come around" yet.

So tell me about Davies, since you know he can't possibly succeed here and all then I assume you know a lot about him. What pitches does he throw, which of them are plus, does he have problems in his delivery, is he bad out of the stretch, is he overthrowing, does he have control that you can't fix, does he have a dead arm, when did he sustain the groin injury, how was his velocity affected afterwards, is it still nagging or does he feel fine, does he have problems in particular places or or during particular times of the year, does the staff think that not pitching much over 2 years has hurt his progress, you know, simple stuff like that.

Since you know that he's an unequivocal bust, let's hear your dossier on him.

GG Google

leviw

07-30-2007, 07:19 PM

Look make fun all you want. I am saying and you can't deny that every year we always play for the next year. We have been playing for the future for the last 13 years.

How is trading Dotel going to change anything this year. Either you bump Greinke or Soria up. You can't play for this year when you're 13 games back in August.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:19 PM

Look make fun all you want. I am saying and you can't deny that every year we always play for the next year. We have been playing for the future for the last 13 years.

We're not good enough this year, 'playing for next year' is wrong, so what do you think they should do? Play for earlier this year?

alnorth

07-30-2007, 07:19 PM

I's not wincing at A trade. It's wincing at THIS trade.

Gathright...good trade
Shealy...looking to be not so good
Soria...stellar

What are we losing? Getting anything for Dotel is basically found money, since he's likely not going to amount to much pretty soon. I'm only disappointed that we apparently only found a $10 instead of a Benjamin.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:20 PM

Well um the Royals aren't remotely good enough to contend for anything so they have to play for next year...

Let me ask you a question. If you keep waiting until next year to paint your house year after year when will your house get painted?

1 year you buy the brushes
the next year you buy the tarps
the next year you get the main color
the next year you get your trim color but then decide to change your main color
the next year you get the new trim color to match the new main color
the next year you buy your ladders but decide to change your trim color
the next year you get the new trim color but then decide again to change your main color...

leviw

07-30-2007, 07:20 PM

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:20 PM

What are we losing? Getting anything for Dotel is basically found money, since he's likely not going to amount to much pretty soon. I'm only disappointed that we apparently only found a $10 instead of a Benjamin.

So then your contention is Dotel is not as hot as everyone is making him out to be?

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:24 PM

alnorth

07-30-2007, 07:24 PM

So then your contention is Dotel is not as hot as everyone is making him out to be?

That is correct, sir.

The only reason he's being traded for AT ALL is because a few teams are desperate to make the playoffs. He wont be anyone's closer, they are trading for a setup man or someone who'd be their 3rd-best reliever in the pen. The dude is on the wrong side of his 30's and his career is going to tail off any year now. He doesnt belong on a young team trying to build for contention.

Chiefspants

07-30-2007, 07:24 PM

Billy Butler is a bigger home run threat than Buck.
True, I met to say one of our biggest long ball threats, But Billy is definitely our top threat right now.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:27 PM

UPDATE 2: Based on this MLB.com report and reports from Sports Radio 810, the deal is not complete and Davies for Dotel was simply an offer. Dotel was apparently seen shagging flies in batting practice today.

Well I think when I heard his interview from the field right before the game I figured he was still with the Royals.... :drool:

Chiefspants

07-30-2007, 07:30 PM

Then why have you freaked out and posted angrily all over the place?

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:31 PM

Then why have you freaked out and posted angrily all over the place?

Cause I am out of pot!!!!

And bored.

Chiefspants

07-30-2007, 07:32 PM

ah, makes sense

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:36 PM

Secondhand info, but a guy on another board says that MSNBC is reporting Jermaine Dye is about to go to Boston for Willy Mo Pena and a minor league prospect.

Now, Dye is a nice player but is about 35 and you'd figure is on the down side of his career, and he was still too good to trade straight up for Pena.

Chiefspants

07-30-2007, 07:38 PM

ROFL!!!! That is a bad trade at first glance, Dye has torn it up this month

alnorth

07-30-2007, 07:38 PM

Cause I am out of pot!!!!

And bored.

Oh. Thats understandable then. I retract anything that may have been aimed your way.

DJ's left nut

07-30-2007, 07:43 PM

the Royals pretty much got Davies for free...

someone tell me why Dotel has ANY value to the Royals? They can use Soria as closer...it's not like we brought Dotel up through the farm system...we signed him, he did well, and he got us a young prospect who has struggled this year but has enough promise to be a solid #3 pitcher in a few years.

Really bad logic.

You completely ignore the opportunity cost of letting Dotel go. If the reports that Balentien was offered are true, then you traded a guy that has torn the cover off the ball in AAA for a guy that has gotten drilled...in AAA.

Don't look at Davies ML performance as a positive, it's more of a sign of a AAAA player.

Davies reputation has been built almost exclusively on one good season in low A ball and about 60 decent innings in AA.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/D/Kyle-Davies.shtml

Outside of 15 good innings in Richmond, Davies hasn't done anything at any level since 2004 that suggests he'll be more than an innings eater. Even before that, AA success means just about nothing when it comes to retiring major league hitters.

The kid hasn't been a true prospect in awhile. His stuff is passable at best. I'd be surprised if he amounted to more than a #4 starter. That's certainly not worth passing on a potential power bat. K's from a minor league hitter don't generally get worse in the jump from AAA to the bigs. In other words, if the Balentien K's in 1/4 of his ABs in AAA, he'll probably do the same in the majors. That's 150 K's over a 600 AB season, which is more than passable.

People act like Balentien just came on, not true. 3 of his 4 seasons have been very strong seasons. Even his 2006 season, which people look at when trying to discount him as a prospect, had him hitting 22 HRs and drawing a fair amount of walks. His OBP was .100 higher than his average and BA is easily the most volatile baseball statistic. His worst season outside of the .230 he put up that season that was .45 pts worse than his 2nd worst season, which happens to be only .01 below his career average. His minor league track record suggets he's about a .280 hitter with strong plate discipline and big time power.

In 500 ABs, I'll bet the kid hits goes for 30 HRs and a .270/.350/.500 line. Nah, the Royals couldn't use an .850 OPS from their 5 spot, they'd be much better served picking up a bottom of the rotation starter.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:46 PM

Really bad logic.

You completely ignore the opportunity cost of letting Dotel go. If the reports that Balentien was offered are true, then you traded a guy that has torn the cover off the ball in AAA for a guy that has gotten drilled...in AAA.

Don't look at Davies ML performance as a positive, it's more of a sign of a AAAA player.

Davies reputation has been built almost exclusively on one good season in low A ball and about 60 decent innings in AA.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/D/Kyle-Davies.shtml

Outside of 15 good innings in Richmond, Davies hasn't done anything at any level since 2004 that suggests he'll be more than an innings eater. Even before that, AA success means just about nothing when it comes to retiring major league hitters.

The kid hasn't been a true prospect in awhile. His stuff is passable at best. I'd be surprised if he amounted to more than a #4 starter. That's certainly not worth passing on a potential power bat. K's from a minor league hitter don't generally get worse in the jump from AAA to the bigs. In other words, if the Balentien K's in 1/4 of his ABs in AAA, he'll probably do the same in the majors. That's 150 K's over a 600 AB season, which is more than passable.

People act like Balentien just came on, not true. 3 of his 4 seasons have been very strong seasons. Even his 2006 season, which people look at when trying to discount him as a prospect, had him hitting 22 HRs and drawing a fair amount of walks. His OBP was .100 higher than his average and BA is easily the most volatile baseball statistic. His worst season outside of the .230 he put up that season that was .45 pts worse than his 2nd worst season, which happens to be only .01 below his career average. His minor league track record suggets he's about a .280 hitter with strong plate discipline and big time power.

In 500 ABs, I'll bet the kid hits goes for 30 HRs and a .270/.350/.500 line. Nah, the Royals couldn't use an .850 OPS from their 5 spot, they'd be much better served picking up a bottom of the rotation starter.

Damn it you are going to piss off all these other people with your facts and numbers.

DJ's left nut

07-30-2007, 07:49 PM

So tell me about Davies, since you know he can't possibly succeed here and all then I assume you know a lot about him. What pitches does he throw, which of them are plus, does he have problems in his delivery, is he bad out of the stretch, is he overthrowing, does he have control that you can't fix, does he have a dead arm, when did he sustain the groin injury, how was his velocity affected afterwards, is it still nagging or does he feel fine, does he have problems in particular places or or during particular times of the year, does the staff think that not pitching much over 2 years has hurt his progress, you know, simple stuff like that.

Since you know that he's an unequivocal bust, let's hear your dossier on him.

GG Google

Fastball that hits 93 when he overthrows it; can't locate it at that speed and it straightens out. Only spots it at about 90, even then it doesn't have enough movement to be a plus pitch.

Throws a plus changeup...when he doesn't telegraph it. Its probably why he performed better in the minors than the pros. Less video, less study, less polished hitters = more likely to miss the change in his arm motion.

Curve ball that seems to slurvy for my tastes. Much like his fastball, he seems to overthrow it when he really needs it to bite, so it hangs and gets slammed.

His only hope is to get a handle on the mechanics of his changeup. If he can do that, it could end up being an out pitch for him. Even still, his curve needs serious work for him to be more than a 2-pitch pitcher (though in all fairness, those 2 pitches would be enough to make him passable at the back end of a rotation, his changeup could end up quite good).

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 07:52 PM

Fastball that hits 93 when he overthrows it; can't locate it at that speed and it straightens out. Only spots it at about 90, even then it doesn't have enough movement to be a plus pitch.

Throws a plus changeup...when he doesn't telegraph it. Its probably why he performed better in the minors than the pros. Less video, less study, less polished hitters = more likely to miss the change in his arm motion.

Curve ball that seems to slurvy for my tastes. Much like his fastball, he seems to overthrow it when he really needs it to bite, so it hangs and gets slammed.

His only hope is to get a handle on the mechanics of his changeup. If he can do that, it could end up being an out pitch for him. Even still, his curve needs serious work for him to be more than a 2-pitch pitcher.

Sounds like a guy who has mechanical problems that could possibly be fixed. I don't think anyone is claiming he's a finished product, or that he represents good value for Dotel alone. But as part of the package mentioned, might not be bad.

If he played for any other team, I'd be skeptical too. but Moore obviously knows this guy and thinks he can help us.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 07:56 PM

DJ's left nut

07-30-2007, 07:58 PM

Sounds like a guy who has mechanical problems that could possibly be fixed. I don't think anyone is claiming he's a finished product, or that he represents good value for Dotel alone. But as part of the package mentioned, might not be bad.

If he played for any other team, I'd be skeptical too. but Moore obviously knows this guy and thinks he can help us.

Another bad way to look at things.

Moore is no more likely to "know the guy" as he is to simply have a soft spot for a guy he wanted to bring into his first organization. Moore also probably remembers the kid that didn't have to dial it up to throw in the mid 90's, but after ripping his groin to hell, that kid probably isn't Davies anymore. Remember, a pitcher creates velocity with his bottom half, Davies tore his apart. Moore hasn't really watched that guy, but he may well have blinders on for one of 'his boys'. Sometimes the outside view is the one you want.

Davies would be a good pickup as a throw in. Like I said, he has some ability. But again, if he is the principal component of your deal, and a deal for Balentien was on the table, you got hosed.

P.S. He doesn't look like a kid with mechanics issues, he looks like a kid that can't figure out why he isn't throwing as well as he used to and can't make the adjustments. He keeps reaching back trying to get what he lost and when he does he can't harness it. It took Matt Morris 4 full seasons to figure out how to deal with diminished stuff, and he was a battle tested vet and one of the toughest pitchers around. I wouldn't expect the same out of Davies.

KcMizzou

07-30-2007, 07:59 PM

We heard the same about Perez too. I have been less than impressd with Perez. Granted he was an upgrade to what we had at the time.Didn't they make a little change with Meche that has supposedly got him pitching like he is now?

I mean, I know he was already a good pitcher, but as I understand it.. he's exceeding expectations this season.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 08:01 PM

Another bad way to look at things.

Moore is no more likely to "know the guy" as he is to simply have a soft spot for a guy he wanted to bring into his first organization. Moore also probably remembers the kid that didn't have to dial it up to throw in the mid 90's, but after ripping his groin to hell, that kid probably isn't Davies anymore. Remember, a pitcher creates velocity with his bottom half, Davies tore his apart. Moore hasn't really watched that guy, but he may well have blinders on for one of 'his boys'. Sometimes the outside view is the one you want.

Davies would be a good pickup as a throw in. Like I said, he has some ability. But again, if he is the principal component of your deal, and a deal for Balentien was on the table, you got hosed.

We don't need any power hitters we just need 802 blah pitchers....

Demonpenz

07-30-2007, 08:01 PM

they had meche set his plant foot down softer and supposedly they knew that from scouting that it would help

petegz28

07-30-2007, 08:04 PM

Didn't they make a little change with Meche that has supposedly got him pitching like he is now?

I mean, I know he was already a good pitcher, but as I understand it.. he's exceeding expectations this season.

Ok so you are talking about taking a Corvette and making it a little faster by throwing some headers on it with Meche.

With Davies you are trying to take a Ford Focus and get it to run a 12.0 in the 1/4 mile. While it can be done it would take all kinds of $'s and effort and the car would not be street drivable.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 08:08 PM

We heard the same about Perez too. I have been less than impressd with Perez. Granted he was an upgrade to what we had at the time.

Moore's best and worst decisions so far...

Worst decision....keeping Elarton around this year
Best decision.... letting Elarton go this year.

Actually, I like the Perez analogy. We got him and two minor league pitchers and cash for Elmer Dessens, a guy who wasn't going to still be here now and thus, no risk for us. The Dodgers more or less paid us to take him off their hands.

Perez hasn't worked out, but so what? What did we miss from Dessens? And we still have two other guys left with a chance to make something out of the trade.

This is what we do, we parlay one guy who's on his way out of town anyway into three guys who have a chance to help us in the future.

KcMizzou

07-30-2007, 08:10 PM

Actually, I like the Perez analogy. We got him and two minor league pitchers and cash for Elmer Dessens, a guy who wasn't going to still be here now and thus, no risk for us. The Dodgers more or less paid us to take him off their hands.

Perez hasn't worked out, but so what? What did we miss from Dessens? And we still have two other guys left with a chance to make something out of the trade.

This is what we do, we parlay one guy who's on his way out of town anyway into three guys who have a chance to help us in the future.Good point. If one works out... we win.

It's not like Dotel was gonna be here anyway.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 08:11 PM

Actually, I like the Perez analogy. We got him and two minor league pitchers and cash for Elmer Dessens, a guy who wasn't going to still be here now and thus, no risk for us. The Dodgers more or less paid us to take him off their hands.

Perez hasn't worked out, but so what? What did we miss from Dessens? And we still have two other guys left with a chance to make something out of the trade.

This is what we do, we parlay one guy who's on his way out of town anyway into three guys who have a chance to help us in the future.

Your last 3 words are what I have heard from this team for the last 15 years.

I don't have a problem trading Dotel. I do have a problem trading him for someone who has been a bust thus far and passing on one who does not seem to be.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 08:14 PM

Didn't they make a little change with Meche that has supposedly got him pitching like he is now?

I mean, I know he was already a good pitcher, but as I understand it.. he's exceeding expectations this season.

They said they liked Meche because they felt he had upside, and he's having the best year of his career by any standard.

On a better team he wouldn't be 7-7, and if his 3.76 holds up the rest of the year, he'd have the best Royals ERA in 10 years. (Appier, 1997)

petegz28

07-30-2007, 08:16 PM

They said they liked Meche because they felt he had upside, and he's having the best year of his career by any standard.

On a better team he wouldn't be 7-7, and if his 3.76 holds up the rest of the year, he'd have the best Royals ERA in 10 years. (Appier, 1997)

Exaclty. And here is this Davies who is on a team who is much better than KC and stunk it up from what I have seen. So you think he gets better going to a worse team talent wise?

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 08:21 PM

Exaclty. And here is this Davies who is on a team who is much better than KC and stunk it up from what I have seen. So you think he gets better going to a worse team talent wise?

Gil Meche got better going to a worse team, and it was because they saw something they could fix. How do we know they don't see something they can fix with Davies?

Meche at one time was thought to be a lost cause, they thought he had SLAP, he'd had two arm surgeries and missed two full seasons in a row in the past. But Moore was right about him.

Demonpenz

07-30-2007, 08:23 PM

dayton must like something about him he probably knows all about him since dayton was in the atlanta system. Which lots of people forget

petegz28

07-30-2007, 08:26 PM

Gil Meche got better going to a worse team, and it was because they saw something they could fix. How do we know they don't see something they can fix with Davies?

Meche at one time was thought to be a lost cause, they thought he had SLAP, he'd had two arm surgeries and missed two full seasons in a row in the past. But Moore was right about him.

Again you are talking about tweaking a Vette with Meche and totally converting a Ford Focus into a race car.

Meche was already good enough to be in the ML. Davies can't seem to cut it.

You can put a silk hat on a pig all day long and it is just a pig in a silk hat no matter how you cut it.

I think this Balentein offers more potential for what we need than this Davies.

We have Hochavur who from what I hear is stinking it up, we have this Lumdsen or whatever his name is we got from the Sox last year who I hear is stinking it up. And now we want to go get another pitcher who is stinking it up?

I don't see what you expect to gain from that sort if thing?

petegz28

07-30-2007, 08:27 PM

dayton must like something about him he probably knows all about him since dayton was in the atlanta system. Which lots of people forget

Well you are closer to the real reason I think and that is Dayton's connections with Atlanta.

They were speculating on 810 during pre-game that Moore is doing this as a favor for the Braves in return for a possible favor down the road.
If that is the case I don't like it.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 08:33 PM

Again you are talking about tweaking a Vette with Meche and totally converting a Ford Focus into a race car.

Meche was already good enough to be in the ML. Davies can't seem to cut it.

You can put a silk hat on a pig all day long and it is just a pig in a silk hat no matter how you cut it.

I think this Balentein offers more potential for what we need than this Davies.

We have Hochavur who from what I hear is stinking it up, we have this Lumdsen or whatever his name is we got from the Sox last year who I hear is stinking it up. And now we want to go get another pitcher who is stinking it up?

I don't see what you expect to gain from that sort if thing?

The point with Meche is that they saw something they could fix and make him better, and they were right. And he was hardly a Corvette when we found him. 4.50 is a lot different than 3.75.

You might be right about Balentin, but you can't judge the trade until we see who else is part of it.

Hochevar is not 'stinking it up' either. He's not mowing people down in Omaha, he's giving up a few runs (about 4.00) but he did that in Wichita and still got strikeouts. This guy is only in his second year in the minors anyway. He needs work, that's why he's not in Kansas City yet. It's not like you can call him a bust by any stretch.

Lumsden we got for Macdougal, a guy who was supposed to be a closer but ran up a 6.00+ ERA this year and got sent down. It was past time to give up on him anyway. Lumsden is found money.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 08:37 PM

The point with Meche is that they saw something they could fix and make him better, and they were right. And he was hardly a Corvette when we found him. 4.50 is a lot different than 3.75.

You might be right about Balentin, but you can't judge the trade until we see who else is part of it.

Hochevar is not 'stinking it up' either. He's not mowing people down in Omaha, he's giving up a few runs (about 4.00) but he's still striking people out, like in Wichita. This guy is only in his second year in the minors anyway. It's not like you can call him a bust by and stretch.

Lumsden we got for Macdougal, a guy who was supposed to be a closer but ran up a 6.00+ ERA this year and got sent down. It was past time to give up on him anyway. Lumsden is found money.

I never called him a bust. I just know we spent a lot of money and heard how great he is and I have seen nothing better than average from him. Granted I haven't tracked him that much.

My point with Meche is you took someone who was already good and made him better. You can upgrade a Vetter to make it faster. You can't make a Ford Focus a Corvette unless you get very, very lucky and Harry Potter is your best friend.

I guess I have too much of a "I call it as I see it" streak in me. If someone is already showing big signs of not living up to expectations I have to question why you would pass on someone who is living up to expecations cause you "think" you are Harry Potter and can turn the Focus into a Vette.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 08:50 PM

My point with Meche is you took someone who was already good and made him better. You can upgrade a Vetter to make it faster. You can't make a Ford Focus a Corvette unless you get very, very lucky and Harry Potter is your best friend.

Meche was never a "good" pitcher until this year. Before 2007, he was at best, average or a little worse than average with his mid-4 low-5 ERA.

Thats why the Royals were roundly criticised for massively overpaying for such a middling pitcher, but as it turns out, if Meche has suddenly figured it out and this isnt a fluke, he's a good bargain now.

Thats not to say I'm predicting that we are going to turn around this Atlanta kid. I'm really not excited about either of the names we've heard.

Hootie

07-30-2007, 08:57 PM

I don't think these guys understand...

WE TRADED OCTAVIO DOTEL. NOT JERMAINE DYE.

Dotel has NO value to KC. Davies at least has a chance.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 08:59 PM

I don't think these guys understand...

WE TRADED OCTAVIO DOTEL. NOT JERMAINE DYE.

Dotel has NO value to KC. Davies at least has a chance.

If Dotel has no value why do all these teams want him?

Hootie

07-30-2007, 09:02 PM

If Dotel has no value why do all these teams want him?
You must have a tough time reading...

He had NO value to the Royals. To other teams in contention, sure, he has some value...

But no team is going to give away a top prospect for a guy that is having his first healthy season in years and really, is just having an average year anyways...

It's not like the Royals invested much in Dotel anyways...the way Royals fans should be looking at it is they got Davies...for free...and he has a chance to be a good pitcher.

Rotoworld liked the Royals side on this trade.

DJ's left nut

07-30-2007, 09:04 PM

I don't think these guys understand...

WE TRADED OCTAVIO DOTEL. NOT JERMAINE DYE.

Dotel has NO value to KC. Davies at least has a chance.

Try reading, then being indignant.

Is the idea of opportunity cost foreign to you? He absolutely has value to the Royals, the value of what can be aquired for him. I reiterate, if Balentien is on the table, and Moore takes Davies, this is a BAD TRADE. It does not matter that Davies is better than nothing, only that he is not as good as Balentien. Davies is not free at that point, he cost you Wladamir Balentien, a very good OF prospect. Suddenly that deal doesn't look so hot.

You look at trades in light of what you could have recieved, not just what you did recieve. The Cards traded Daric Barton in the ill-fated Mulder deal. Barton is absolutely useless to the Cardinals, he is blocked at 1st, can't play OF and there is no DH in the NL. At the same time, he could have been flipped for someone like Quentin, who would have had more value to the Cards than Barton's throw in value in the Mulder trade.

The fact that the player has no intrinsic value to his current club is immaterial. He absolutely has value as a trade asset.

This is not a difficult concept. I'm pretty certain I am not the one that doesn't understand...

KcMizzou

07-30-2007, 09:06 PM

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:08 PM

You must have a tough time reading...

He had NO value to the Royals. To other teams in contention, sure, he has some value...

But no team is going to give away a top prospect for a guy that is having his first healthy season in years and really, is just having an average year anyways...

It's not like the Royals invested much in Dotel anyways...the way Royals fans should be looking at it is they got Davies...for free...and he has a chance to be a good pitcher.

Rotoworld liked the Royals side on this trade.

I don't care what Rotoworld liked. Let me ask you this, if Dotel is so average why are all these teams so eager to add an average player?

See you say he has no value to us but I call BS on that. We trade him and get a bust of a pitcher and then we are not only out a decent closer we are no further along in getting good players.

So why not go after the Balentein kid? I don't care if we get Davies for free or not the kid has shown no signs of being any good at all. I haven't seen anything yet that would show me anyway that he is going to be anything beyond a #4 or #5 pitcher. Well we have several #4 or #5 pitchers and they are a dime a dozen.

Meanwhile Dotel, who you claim is not that good, is the best closer we have had in years.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:10 PM

See they are talking again on 810 right now about how this is Moore doing a favor for Atlanta. a you scratch my back I'll scratch yours type thing.

KcMizzou

07-30-2007, 09:11 PM

I don't care what Rotoworld liked. Let me ask you this, if Dotel is so average why are all these teams so eager to add an average player?
Because they need a closer badly, and they have a shot to win it all this season?

That's the way I understand it, anyway.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:12 PM

Because they need a closer badly, and they have a shot to win it all this season?

That's the way I understand it, anyway.

Oh so for a team who has something to lose Dotel has value but for us he is just a piece of junk?

That makes no sense at all.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:13 PM

Meanwhile Dotel, who you claim is not that good, is the best closer we have had in years.

Which frankly is kind of sad.

None of the teams trading for him out of desperation to make the playoffs want him to be their closer. He'll be a free agent in 2 months, and if he's so great we can resign him then.

Our ability to resign him, if we want to, is not eliminated by this trade. We only picked him up because no other team would give him a chance to prove that he was still worth a damn, we didnt have anyone to close, so we signed him thinking if he put it together we'll have a trading chip.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:13 PM

If I had a team that had a shot at contending why would I add a very average closer?

See you can't say Dotel stinks but yet these teams in contention are chimping at the bit to get him.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:15 PM

Which frankly is kind of sad.

None of the teams trading for him out of desperation to make the playoffs want him to be their closer. He'll be a free agent in 2 months, and if he's so great we can resign him then.

Our ability to resign him, if we want to, is not eliminated by this trade. We only picked him up because no other team would give him a chance to prove that he was still worth a damn, we didnt have anyone to close, so we signed him for peanuts thinking if he put it together we'll have a trading chip.

Ok so once again you have pointed out for a winning team he is good but for us he isn't.

He is good enough to help a winning team win but not to help us win?

OOOOKKKKKKK

KevB

07-30-2007, 09:15 PM

Try reading, then being indignant.

Is the idea of opportunity cost foreign to you? He absolutely has value to the Royals, the value of what can be aquired for him. I reiterate, if Balentien is on the table, and Moore takes Davies, this is a BAD TRADE. It does not matter that Davies is better than nothing, only that he is not as good as Balentien. Davies is not free at that point, he cost you Wladamir Balentien, a very good OF prospect. Suddenly that deal doesn't look so hot.

You look at trades in light of what you could have recieved, not just what you did recieve. The Cards traded Daric Barton in the ill-fated Mulder deal. Barton is absolutely useless to the Cardinals, he is blocked at 1st, can't play OF and there is no DH in the NL. At the same time, he could have been flipped for someone like Quentin, who would have had more value to the Cards than Barton's throw in value in the Mulder trade.

The fact that the player has no intrinsic value to his current club is immaterial. He absolutely has value as a trade asset.

This is not a difficult concept. I'm pretty certain I am not the one that doesn't understand...

I'm just impressed that all of the folks criticizing the reported Davies deal know for a fact that Balentien is a better major league ball player than Davies. Oh wait, we don't know that because Balentien has yet to set foot on a major league field. While Davies has been disappointing, he was,not long ago, every bit the prospect that Balentien is. According to most reports I've read, Davies still has quality stuff...just hasn't "figured it out" yet. Pitchers can sometimes take a while to find their stride.

All that said, I don't disagree that Balentien would be a nice haul for Dotel (assuming the newspaper report is even correct...big assumption IMO). But if Dayton sees a mid to front line starter in Davies, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 09:15 PM

I reiterate, if Balentien is on the table, and Moore takes Davies, this is a BAD TRADE.

You can't say that until you see what else is in the trade. There were rumors that there could be 3 players in the trade and not just one. You can't judge the thing a bust without even knowing who the other guys are.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:16 PM

If I had a team that had a shot at contending why would I add a very average closer?

See you can't say Dotel stinks but yet these teams in contention are chimping at the bit to get him.

Because its not the offseason, and an average reliever is the best available right now.

In the offseason, it will be easy to pick and choose among free agents or promote your own, but right now, its not like we have a bunch of free agents milling around hunting for a job like we would in November.

PinkFloyd

07-30-2007, 09:16 PM

ESPN still says Dotel is NOT a done deal... They got til around noon tomorrow to get it done...

KevB

07-30-2007, 09:17 PM

See they are talking again on 810 right now about how this is Moore doing a favor for Atlanta. a you scratch my back I'll scratch yours type thing.

And as we all know, 810 is the place to go for facts.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:18 PM

Ok so once again you have pointed out for a winning team he is good but for us he isn't.

He is good enough to help a winning team win but not to help us win?

OOOOKKKKKKK

Dude, this is the first year he hasnt sucked in a long damned time. He's over 35. He has a long history of injury. He will probably never be this good again.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 09:18 PM

And as we all know, 810 is the place to go for facts.

I was listening, and it was complete speculation on the part of the guys on the radio, there was no basis for it, and it wasn't even the center point in the conversation. They were talking about the other guys who could be involved in the deal.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:19 PM

You can't say that until you see what else is in the trade. There were rumors that there could be 3 players in the trade and not just one. You can't judge the thing a bust without even knowing who the other guys are.

I agree except you are talking about the key person of the trade already showing strong signs of being a bust.

Hey I will be the first to eat my words as you know should we get this Davies and he lights it up.

But when I look at the facts, those being his performances I can't say this kid shows a great deal of promise.

Meantime we desperately need bats and Balentein is kncking the snot out of the ball.

But let's take a chance on a kid that can't seem to cut it.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:20 PM

I was listening, and it was complete speculation on the part of the guys on the radio, there was no basis for it, and it wasn't even the center point in the conversation. They were talking about the other guys who could be involved in the deal.

They were talking about this before the game as well. And it makes sense. I know you may think it doesn't but I see that being more plausible than thinking this Davies is actually going to fill a need for us.

Marco Polo

07-30-2007, 09:22 PM

From rotoworld:

According to the Kansas City Star, the Royals will acquire Kyle Davies from the Braves for Octavio Dotel.
Definitely a deal worth making for Kansas City. Davies' stock has fallen the last two years, but he's just 23 and he still has a chance to be a long-term No. 3.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:23 PM

keg in kc

07-30-2007, 09:26 PM

If this is a 1 for 1 trade we got bent over and pumped like a bitch.Yeah, 'cause a 33-year old closer who spent most of the last 3-4 years on the DL has "stud" written all over him.

We were lucky to get anything.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:28 PM

Yeah, 'cause a 33-year old closer who spent most of the last 3-4 years on the DL has "stud" written all over him.

We were lucky to get anything.

Once again I have to ask if Dotel sucks so much why are all these teams with something on the line so eager to ge ta guy who sucks so bad?

KcMizzou

07-30-2007, 09:30 PM

Once again I have to ask if Dotel sucks so much why are all these teams with something on the line so eager to ge ta guy who sucks so bad?That's not the point... after this season, he's not ours anyway.

Get it?

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:31 PM

That's not the point... after this season, he's not ours anyway.

Get it?

Yes I get it and still it makes no sense.

A) he wants to stay here
B) he is the best closer we have had in years regardless of how much you all say he sucks

And what will totally suck is if we trade him and Soria busts as a closer.

I think Soria can hack it but none the less.

KcMizzou

07-30-2007, 09:32 PM

I give up.

tk13

07-30-2007, 09:34 PM

I give up.
LMAO

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:34 PM

I give up.

Dude it isn't about giving up. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Your opinion is you will accept creating a hole on our team and taking a chnce on a kid who is really looking like a bust.

My opinion is if you are going to trade him go for someone who has had a better showing like this Balentein kid or keep Dotel who is the best closer we have had in years.

Chiefspants

07-30-2007, 09:34 PM

Yeah, hes determined to be angry today, Dotel is almost 34 btw, so he may be good for another year or two, but he is not going to be the answer forever

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:35 PM

Octavio Dotel

1999 (Rookie NY Mets starter after 6 years in minors) 8-3, 5.38 ERA
Traded to Astros
2000 Began as a starter, failed, converted to closer 3-7, 16 saves, 7 blown saves, 5.40 ERA
2001 Lost closer job, just a bullpen pitcher, but did ok. 2.66 ERA
2002 bullpen 1.85 ERA
2003 bullpen 2.48 ERA
2004 (Astros) given closer job 14 saves, 3 blown saves
Traded to A's, given closer job
2004 (A's) 22 saves, 6 blown saves
2005 7 saves, 4 blown saves, injured, Tommy John surgery, out rest of year after 15 games
Signed with Yankees
2006 bullpen Developed tendonitis on rehab, delaying return till August, 10.80 ERA, played only 14 games, Yankees told him to get lost at the end of the year
2007 Signed with the only team left willing to let him close, and for the first time in years, he finally turned in a respectable performance without getting hurt

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:36 PM

Yeah, hes determined to be angry today, Dotel is almost 34 btw, so he may be good for another year or two, but he is not going to be the answer forever

How old is Rivera?

And I never said he was the answer forever. But he is better than what we had and can carry the load until we build up around some of the younger talent.

keg in kc

07-30-2007, 09:36 PM

Once again I have to ask if Dotel sucks so much why are all these teams with something on the line so eager to ge ta guy who sucks so bad?Ironic that you would say that. The fact that we traded him for what we did speaks volumes about that. Because it was obviously the most anyone was willing to give up. You can throw out all the fantasy names you want to, but the actual trade is the reality.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:37 PM

The point is it depends what deals are on the table...if he takes a deal from the Braves when a better deal is on the table it doesn't matter if Dotel isn't gonna be here or not. That is not the point at all..

It becomes that he had value to trade and didn't take the best deal because he has some desire to help out Atlanta.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:38 PM

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:39 PM

Ironic that you would say that. The fact that we traded him for what we did speaks volumes about that. Because it was obviously the most anyone was willing to give up. You can throw out all the fantasy names you want to, but the actual trade is the reality.

So then teams are just shooting themselves in the foot by trading for him heh?

I don't get some of you some times. Really.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:40 PM

How old is Rivera?

The difference is that Rivera did not have Tommy John surgery, or miss nearly two years, or suck for most of his career, or did nothing worth a damn since 2004.

He's doing good RIGHT NOW, which is why some desperate teams are willing to throw a minor B-level prospect to rent him for 2 months.

There is absolutely no reason to believe he wont be out of baseball in a few years, unless he repeats 2007. If the Royals sign him to a long-term deal, I will lose a LOT of daith in Moore.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:40 PM

It's pretty simple...

Dotel for Balentein appears to be the better deal

Dotel for Davies seems to be Moore helping the Braves

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:42 PM

[QUOTE=petegz28]
How old is Rivera?
[QUOTE]

The difference is that Rivera did not have Tommy John surgery, or miss nearly two years, or suck for most of his career, or did nothing worth a damn since 2004.

He's doing good RIGHT NOW, which is why some desperate teams are willing to throw a minor B-level prospect to rent him for 2 months.

There is absolutely no reason to believe he wont be out of baseball in a few years, unless he repeats 2007. If the Royals sign him to a long-term deal, I will lose a LOT of daith in Moore.

Who said we have to sign him to a long term deal? We could extend his contract for next season and work on some of our farm talent.

At least you know what you have with him and barring injuries you know what he brings to the table. And obviously he brings something or teams in the hunt wouldn't jeopardize themeselves by adding a suck pitcher.

keg in kc

07-30-2007, 09:43 PM

So then teams are just shooting themselves in the foot by trading for him heh?One team traded for him. The Braves. Logic would dictate that the deal was the best one on the table.

Unless you're one of those wacked-out tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nuts that thinks Moore would sacrifice talent to do his old franchise a solid.

There weren't any better offers left on the table. This was all your boy was worth. I'm sorry to break it to you.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:44 PM

It's pretty simple...

Dotel for Balentein appears to be the better deal

Dotel for Davies seems to be Moore helping the Braves

That is the only valid arguement you have.

Your earlier attempts to say that Dotel is a good pitcher that we should keep for a few years is totally nuts.

On the other hand, if you want to say "ok, yeah so some teams are overpaying out of desperation, fine whatever. I dont care why they are doing it, I like deal A better than deal B, so if we take deal B, its a bad move, even if its a net gain, we could do even better with deal A", now we've got a discussion.

I'm not impressed with either player, myself.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:44 PM

In fairness pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery pretty frequently and successfully at a huge clip now it's not a career ender anymore.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:45 PM

Who said we have to sign him to a long term deal? We could extend his contract for next season and work on some of our farm talent.

At least you know what you have with him and barring injuries you know what he brings to the table. And obviously he brings something or teams in the hunt wouldn't jeopardize themeselves by adding a suck pitcher.

What is stopping us from resigning him after this season? (Assuming we want to?) Personally if he said he wanted to come back, my answer would be "yeah... umm, thanks Dotel but we dont need you anymore, good bye"

Given our bullpen talent, I wouldnt sign Dotel for 2008 even if he wasnt traded.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:45 PM

In fairness pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery pretty frequently and successfully at a huge clip now it's not a career ender anymore.

Kind of what I was thinking. Most seem to say they feel stronger after the surgery. At least the ones I have heard.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:45 PM

That is the only valid arguement you have.

Your earlier attempts to say that Dotel is a good pitcher that we should keep for a few years is totally nuts.

On the other hand, if you want to say "ok, yeah so some teams are overpaying out of desperation, fine whatever. I dont care why they are doing it, I like deal A better than deal B, so if we take deal B, its a bad move, even if its a net gain, we could do even better with deal A", now we've got a discussion.

I'm not impressed with either player, myself.

I think the Royals should be jumping on any sort of power potential bat they can find, this is the weakest hitting team in the AL by far when it comes to any kind of HR or HR potential.

DJ's left nut

07-30-2007, 09:45 PM

I'm just impressed that all of the folks criticizing the reported Davies deal know for a fact that Balentien is a better major league ball player than Davies. Oh wait, we don't know that because Balentien has yet to set foot on a major league field. While Davies has been disappointing, he was,not long ago, every bit the prospect that Balentien is. According to most reports I've read, Davies still has quality stuff...just hasn't "figured it out" yet. Pitchers can sometimes take a while to find their stride.

All that said, I don't disagree that Balentien would be a nice haul for Dotel (assuming the newspaper report is even correct...big assumption IMO). But if Dayton sees a mid to front line starter in Davies, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Oh for f@#$s suck, I've already addressed this and I'm tired of repeating myself.

Again, Davies is highly touted because of 1....ONE good season in low A. He also has a handful of solid innings in AA under his belt. Huzzah.

Meanwhile, Balentien has hit, a lot, at every level. He has shown the development curve of a plus power hitter. By all means, look it up.

At this stage in their careers, Balentien is the better prospect....period. Then you get into the TINSTAAPP stage of the analysis (There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect). Pitchers have a FAR greater bust rate and a much lower correlation between their minor league success and their major leagues success. In short, Balentien is far more likely to repeat his minor league success in the majors than Davies is (and Davies wasn't as good in the minor as Balentien has been, relative to their contemporaries).

Dayton Moore has one job, to create the best chance for his team to win. He can't guarantee winning, baseball is too unpredictable, but he can take strides towards minimizing that volatility.

Trading your best trade chip for a pitcher who's upside is no greater, who's ML success is no greater, and who's minor league track record is no greater than his position player equivalent is not minimizing that volatility. In any event, the 'no greater' tag is probably being generous for Davies. His minor league track record is actually worse than Balentien's and his upside isn't as strong either.

You're homers, that's fine. I try the same stupid rationalizations when the Cards do dumb crap like trade a future All-Star starter for a washed up, soft-tossing lefty (Haren for Mulder will hurt until I die). But if you really want to know what it is your GM is doing, you might want to take a more objective look at it.

Sure-Oz

07-30-2007, 09:46 PM

Damn pete blew up my thread...

overreact much? You are probably the most emotional poster here....and your way seems to be the highway. Wait for the deal to be completed atleast...

Give the guy a chance regardless, Dotel isn't eric gagne in his prime.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:46 PM

What is stopping us from resigning him after this season?

Nothing if that is what we wanted to do assuming no one else snags him in the mean time.

What's to say he doesn't go to Atlanta, continue pitching as he is and they say..."hey sign him for the next season"?

It's all about wht risks you want to assume.

We risk losing a decent closer by letting him go and as it appears for a kid who seems to be struggling big time at the ML level.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:47 PM

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:48 PM

Oh for f@#$s suck, I've already addressed this and I'm tired of repeating myself.

Again, Davies is highly touted because of 1....ONE good season in AA. He also has a handful of solid innings in AAA under his belt. Huzzah.

Meanwhile, Balentien has hit, a lot, at every level. He has shown the development curve of a plus power hitter. By all means, look it up.

At this stage in their careers, Balentien is the better prospect....period. Then you get into the TINSTAAPP stage of the analysis (There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect). Pitchers have a FAR greater bust rate and a much lower correlation between their minor league success and their major leagues success. In short, Balentien is far more likely to repeat his minor league success in the majors than Davies is (and Davies wasn't as good in the minor as Balentien has been, relative to their contemporaries).

Dayton Moore has one job, to create the best chance for his team to win. He can't guarantee winning, baseball is too unpredictable, but he can take strides towards minimizing that volatility.

Trading your best trade chip for a pitcher who's upside is no greater, who's ML success is no greater, and who's minor league track record is no greater than his position player equivalent is not minimizing that volatility. In any event, the 'no greater' tag is probably being generous for Davies. His minor league track record is actually worse than Balentien's and his upside isn't as strong either.

You're homers, that's fine. I try the same stupid rationalizations when the Cards do dumb crap like trade a future All-Star starter for a washed up, soft-tossing lefty (Haren for Mulder will hurt until I die). But if you really want to know what it is your GM is doing, you might want to take a more objective look at it.

I like how you made excellent posts with several facts and they just got ignored for "you don't know what you're talkin about this guy is good! we need pitching! Balentien strikes out to much!"

It never ceases to amaze me when people try to turn bad trades into how it was a great move.

alanm

07-30-2007, 09:48 PM

Am I honestly the only one who thinks the Royals entire lineup needs to be overhauled? You aren't going to win in the AL with 0 power, you just aren't. The entire OF is crap by AL standards and so is nearly every other position.
Once Gordon get his act cranked up and running he should be good for 25-30 Hr's a yr. But they do need more power. I'm hoping guy's like Maier and Lubanski ect. finally start making the KC roster next spring.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:50 PM

Once Gordon get his act cranked up and running he should be good for 25-30 Hr's a yr. But they do need more power. I'm hoping guy's like Maier and Lubanski ect. finally start making the KC roster next spring.

I wasn't including Gordon I'll just make that clear.....he has power potential. But the OF that's the biggest problem nowadays teams have all 3 guys with power we have none, you need at least 2 and that other guy better be really really good at other things.

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:51 PM

Nothing if that is what we wanted to do assuming no one else snags him in the mean time.

What's to say he doesn't go to Atlanta, continue pitching as he is and they say..."hey sign him for the next season"?

It's all about wht risks you want to assume.

We risk losing a decent closer by letting him go and as it appears for a kid who seems to be struggling big time at the ML level.

I added on to that post in an edit, but to complete my thought, even if he wasnt traded and Dotel came up to me and asked for a 2008 contract, unless he was willing to take a HUGE pay cut, I'd tell him to get lost. We signed him this year because we thought we had nothing, then we needed to try to turn him into a trading chip so we allowed him to close while better pitchers worked relief.

He's earning more than I thought he was this year, and there's no reason to believe he'd be worth signing for the same or more money next year.

Eleazar

07-30-2007, 09:53 PM

We risk losing a decent closer by letting him go and as it appears for a kid who seems to be struggling big time at the ML level.

If your position is that we need to make a 35 year old closer with a history of injury problems a part of our long-term plans, then why not trade him and resign him after the season?

alnorth

07-30-2007, 09:53 PM

He is still better than what we have had.

Greinke, Soria, and Riske are all better than Dotel right now. If we were willing to trade those three, we'd get more in return.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:53 PM

I wasn't including Gordon I'll just make that clear.....he has power potential. But the OF that's the biggest problem nowadays teams have all 3 guys with power we have none, you need at least 2 and that other guy better be really really good at other things.

Ah what the hell do we know heh? These other people all seem to know it all. We are just emotional and such. Davies is the bee's knees didn't ya know?

We need pitching. It doesn't need to be good as long as they are younger than Dotel. Then we can make excuses as to why we still suck and pissed away a chance and a legit 20-30 HR hitter.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:53 PM

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:55 PM

Greinke, Soria, and Riske are all better than Dotel right now. If we were willing to trade those three, we'd get more in return.

I won't argue that. But I wouldn't trade any of them but Riske unless we got soemthing huge in return.

Why? Because good teams keep good players.

Which is why we are not good.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:55 PM

Ah what the hell do we know heh? These other people all seem to know it all. We are just emotional and such. Davies is the bee's knees didn't ya know?

We need pitching. It doesn't need to be good as long as they are younger than Dotel. Then we can make excuses as to why we still suck and pissed away a chance and a legit 20-30 HR hitter.

Don't you find it sad that we passed through the huge HR era of steroid baseball and the Royals HR record is still 36 and was set in the 80's.....Old decrepit, declining, shell Barry Bonds has more HR's than anyone on our team.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:56 PM

You have to trade your trading chip for the right guys...What's with the people arguing "well we weren't gonna keep him anyway" like you should just be happy with any old scrub..

Man some people really have low standards.

And they will be the first to bitch when he is gone and we have no closer.

Personally I think we can get by with Soria. But as you said it's the point of who we trade for with Dotel. Not that we trade him.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 09:58 PM

Don't you find it sad that we passed through the huge HR era of steroid baseball and the Royals HR record is still 36 and was set in the 80's.....Old decrepit, declining, shell Barry Bonds has more HR's than anyone on our team.

Well let's see there was Jaun Gone, Rondell White, Benito Santiago.....those were all great players...... :banghead:

And the pitching....Jeff Suppan....oh yeah gotta love leadin the league in HR's allowed and Burgos.

People say Dotel sucks seem to forget who Ambiorix Burgos is.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 09:59 PM

alnorth

07-30-2007, 10:01 PM

I won't argue that. But I wouldn't trade any of them but Riske unless we got soemthing huge in return.

Why? Because good teams keep good players.

Which is why we are not good.

DOTEL IS NOT GOOD!

I threw out those 3 names to show you why we shouldnt bother re-signing him even if he wanted to come back, unless he wanted to take a massive pay cut. In spring we didnt know if we had a bullpen. Now, Dotel is unecessary, and is payroll better spent elsewhere.

We probably overpaid him this year as it is, in spite of his ok performance. If he asked me for another deal in 2008 for $5 million, I'd politely thank him for his service and show him the door.

Hammock Parties

07-30-2007, 10:03 PM

You have to trade your trading chip for the right guys...What's with the people arguing "well we weren't gonna keep him anyway" like you should just be happy with any old scrub..

Man some people really have low standards.

Are you even a fan of the Royals? Personally, to me, it seems you really dont like any kansas city sports, so most of the time input from you has no merit whatsoever... Maybe if you start being a little bit more possitive people would actually listen...

petegz28

07-30-2007, 10:03 PM

DOTEL IS NOT GOOD!

I threw out those 3 names to show you why we shouldnt bother re-signing him even if he wanted to come back, unless he wanted to take a massive pay cut. In spring we didnt know if we had a bullpen. Now, Dotel is unecessary, and is payroll better spent elsewhere.

We probably overpaid him this year as it is, in spite of his ok performance. If he asked me for another deal in 2008 for $5 million, I'd politely thank him for his service and show him the door.

Once again you say he is not good yet teams in the race want him.

Funny how teams better than us want a guy who sucks so much,

:banghead:

Dotel > Davies

Mecca

07-30-2007, 10:03 PM

DOTEL IS NOT GOOD!

I threw out those 3 names to show you why we shouldnt bother re-signing him even if he wanted to come back, unless he wanted to take a massive pay cut. In spring we didnt know if we had a bullpen. Now, Dotel is unecessary, and is payroll better spent elsewhere.

We probably overpaid him this year as it is, in spite of his ok performance. If he asked me for another deal in 2008 for $5 million, I'd politely thank him for his service and show him the door.

Just because you personally think he isn't good.....doesn't mean you get to take anything for him in a trade. He's one of the few guys available for trade out of the bullpen right now, more than 1 team is interested. It's an important trade no matter what you think of Dotel because he has value to these other teams, it's important to get something good and not screw it up.

petegz28

07-30-2007, 10:04 PM

Are you even a fan of the Royals? Personally, to me, it seems you really dont like any kansas city sports, so most of the time input from you has no merit whatsoever... Maybe if you start being a little bit more possitive people would actually listen...

Well I am. You know I am. And as far as I know I am one of the few if not the only with Royals Season Tickets.

Now since I agree with him does that help you?

petegz28

07-30-2007, 10:05 PM

Just because you personally think he isn't good.....doesn't mean you get to take anything for him in a trade. He's one of the few guys available for trade out of the bullpen right now, more than 1 team is interested. It's an important trade no matter what you think of Dotel because he has value to these other teams, it's important to get something good and not screw it up.

Once again your logic is overwhelming to some.

Mecca

07-30-2007, 10:05 PM

Are you even a fan of the Royals? Personally, to me, it seems you really dont like any kansas city sports, so most of the time input from you has no merit whatsoever... Maybe if you start being a little bit more possitive people would actually listen...

Explain to me what is wrong with what I said......I'm just being honest with it. I'm not gonna try to shine a pile of crap because I live here.

Hammock Parties

07-30-2007, 10:05 PM

We also traded Carlos Beltran for a catcher with decent power that can't hit his weight in batting average....a player who's now in the OF that is a glorified singles hitter with the power of a mid 80's shortstop and a pitcher who's no longer with the organization....

Man awesome trade there....

hm... Catchers arent really supposed to hit for average, and Teahen is doing fine. If you actually watch any of the games, which i doubt from all your ramblings, youd see how much Teahen actually plays the game rather than just going to work. Yah, his stats kinda suck this year, but hes been prety clutch for us.