ESPN crying about only 1 Donk in the Hall

[ChiefsCountry]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/halloffame07/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=2958207&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos1

ROFL

[Direckshun]

My heart breaks.

[kepp]

http://espn.go.com/i/columnists/sando_mike_m.jpg He kind of looks like Shanahan. Love child?

[Mile High Mania]

Very solid points were brought up by the writer... there's definitely a bias as there should be 3-4 guys in the HOF with Elway. No worries though... Sharpe will soon be there, possibly others.

[shaneo69]

My take is that a lot of people outside of Denver didn't like Elway, and because of him, they didn't like the Broncos. And it doesn't help that Tom Jackson, Shannon Sharpe, and Mark Schlereth are the biggest jackasses on TV.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Well, when you ain't good enough.........you ain't good enough.
Thanks for playing and please try again

[BigRock]

The comments are good. "When you cheat the salary cap to win your Super Bowls, you waive the right to have guys in the HOF. It's in the NFL by-laws. Sorry, Broncos."

LMAO

[chagrin]

Very solid points were brought up by the writer... there's definitely a bias as there should be 3-4 guys in the HOF with Elway. No worries though... Sharpe will soon be there, possibly others.

What's your opinion of who should be there, from Denver?

I think of one other dude, although I admit I cannot remember his name but I think he was a lineman (I wasn't thinking of stink, but he could be considered).

My opinion, Tom Jackson absolutely does not belong there. No offense intended, and I hate to seem like I am bringing up the rivalry but since I am a CHIEFs fan, let me say this, and I believe it:

If there is no D.T. - there should be no Tom Jackson, ever.

[ChiefsCountry]

Look at the Chiefs who are in the hall:
Lamar Hunt
Bobby Bell
Willie Lanier
Buck Buchanan
Jan Stenurd
Len Dawson
Marcus Allen

Now compare those guys to the Donks greatest players.

[chagrin]

Another thing is that they have been a "powerhouse" in spurts, 4-5 years in the late 80s then 4-5 years in the late 90s. With the exception of Elway, Terrell Davis (career cut short prematurely) and Horesy faced Shannon Sharpe, none of the latter team members showed enough to be in the HOF either...again my opinion only.

[Rain Man]

The one that's in there shouldn't be. He brought shame to the sport.

And as far as any others, who do they have that's worth consideration? The only two they have are Gradishar and Mecklenburg, and neither of those are anywhere close to being locks. They're very borderline candidates at best. Maybe you could add Atwater to that group.

The talking horse will likely get in, but no one else should be a candidate. Zimmerman is a Viking in my eyes, and he's borderline, too.


Terrell Davis gives the Broncos another prominent candidate. Floyd Little, Karl Mecklenburg, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith and Tom Jackson have yet to gain traction. Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith are among those not yet eligible.


Dennis Smith? Are they serious? Tom Jackson? Jackson was never anything more than an average linebacker. I could name 50 linebackers more deserving without even opening up the stats sheets. Cryin' Floyd Little and his 700-yard seasons? What a joke. Davis didn't play long enough, and Rod Smith was not strong enough against his peers. He got a lot of catches, but was no more than a mole on the cheek of guys like Harrison, Rice, Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, and a dozen others.

[Phobia]

ESPN is losing credibility daily with me. Has anybody read their top 50 active players with a shot at the PFHOF? Just horrible.

[Rain Man]

Maybe Elam has a shot, too.

[chagrin]

Steve Atwater was a good Safety though

[ChiefsCountry]

ESPN is losing credibility daily with me. Has anybody read their top 50 active players with a shot at the PFHOF? Just horrible.

Alot of questionables on that for sure.

[Rain Man]

ESPN is losing credibility daily with me. Has anybody read their top 50 active players with a shot at the PFHOF? Just horrible.

Where's that? I'd like to see it.

Lemme guess. Ray Lewis is #1, because Everybody But The Victims Loves Raymond.

[Mile High Mania]

I can't really give a good opinion on the older guys, I didn't become a fan until 1984... however, I do think Zimmerman should get the call to Canton based on his body of work and accomplishments as a Viking and a Bronco.

I think the arguments made on behalf of Gradishar warrant serious consideration, but I don't know enough about those in the HOF and not at that position to really compare.

Sharpe will make it to Canton and I think Schlereth should get consideration as well, but until Zimm gets in... Mark won't.

Elam should definitely receive huge consideration, but kickers don't get much respect.

Dr Z made a comment today that he is one of many guys with a vote that will be taking the "pro" stance on Terrell Davis when he is eligible in 2008. That will be interesting to me b/c I see both sides to it and understand arguments for and against.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time whining about it or stating cases... I like the debate though.

[ChiefsCountry]

Where's that? I'd like to see it.

Lemme guess. Ray Lewis is #1, because Everybody But The Victims Loves Raymond.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=halloffame/nfl1-10

[Red Dawg]

who cares?

[Mile High Mania]

That ESPN Top 50 list is a joke... they have rookies from this year on the list.

Zimmerman should get serious consideration... he was a Viking for 7 years and a Bronco for 5. Zimm is every bit a Bronco as he is a Viking.

[morphius]

Basing almost his entire argument on winning percentage seem pretty weak at best. The HoF is, well supposed to be anyway, about standing out. You can have a very good team, and have nobody that really stands out. Then if nobody really stands out of the group, and you don't win a SB, people can stop caring pretty quick.

You look at the 90's Donks and people think "Elway's teams", so it is going to be harder to get in for some of the guys. As I see it now, there will probably be at least a couple more that get in from the SB teams, and Champ will probably go in when he retires.

[ChiefsCountry]

The only Chiefs that need to be their that arent, is DT and Otis Taylor. Maybe a case for Johnny Robinson as well.

[Mile High Mania]

Rod Smith was not strong enough against his peers. He got a lot of catches, but was no more than a mole on the cheek of guys like Harrison, Rice, Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, and a dozen others.

Herman Moore?
ROFL Rod has nearly 200 more receptions... 2,000+ more yards and more TDs than Herman Moore.

Sterling's career was shortened by injury, but Rod has better numbers than him as well.

[Fish]

ESPN has become a sports/celebrity popularity contest...

[Messier]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=halloffame/nfl1-10


That's Horrible!!! Unless that's a joke! They've got rookies on that list!
Calvin Johnson is ahead of Chad Johnson! I've just got to believe that they made that list to get people like me steamed.

[Mile High Mania]

The list is a joke... I mean, how can you have someone that hasn't signed their rookie contract, much less played a down in the NFL on this list.

[Demonpenz]

It's sad the hall doesn't even attempt to hide the fact they are homaphobe's

[Messier]

Oh, and Broncos who could maybe, kind of, sort of be considered for the hall: Randy Gradishar, Louis Wright, and that's about it.

[FAX]

It was my understanding that Shannon and Sterling had already been inducted into the Public Speakers Hall Of Fame but they missed the ceremony because the girl at the American Airlines ticket counter couldn't figure out where they wanted to go exactly.

FAX

[Ugly Duck]

Aren't the Donks banned from the HOF for cheating on the salary cap during their SuperBowl wins?

[Mile High Mania]

Look at the Chiefs who are in the hall:
Lamar Hunt
Bobby Bell - 1974
Willie Lanier - 1977
Buck Buchanan - 1975
Jan Stenurd - 1979
Len Dawson - 1975
Marcus Allen - 11 years as a Raider / 5 as a Chief

Now compare those guys to the Donks greatest players.

Ok, in Rain Man fashion... Allen was more Raider than Chief, so enjoy sharing him with Oakland fans. Why not put Montana on the list?

But, it's not like anyone from the Chiefs' franchise of note in the last 2-3 decades has gone to Canton. I was 8 years old and younger when the guys above played in the 70s, so I can't accurately compare them to the Broncos of the last decade.

[Mile High Mania]

Aren't the Donks banned from the HOF for cheating on the salary cap during their SuperBowl wins?

Who's that guy in your sig line.... ?

[ChiefsfaninPA]

ESPN is becoming a joke. Has anyone watched that Who's Now crap. I swear it is getting more like a soap opera than sports reporting. I hope in the next few years an internet or web based entrepreneur gives us a sports format like ESPN used to. I don't even watch SportsCenter anymore because of this shit. I could care less who's now or never was. Just give me my highlights and a LITTLE analysis. :cuss: :cuss:

[Mile High Mania]

ESPN is becoming a joke. Has anyone watched that Who's Now crap. I swear it is getting more like a soap opera than sports reporting. I hope in the next few years an internet or web based entrepreneur gives us a sports format like ESPN used to. I don't even watch SportsCenter anymore because of this shit. I could care less who's now or never was. Just give me my highlights and a LITTLE analysis. :cuss: :cuss:

I think a lot of this is the product of it being baseball season and nobody gives a damn about baseball.

[Wile_E_Coyote]

"ESPN crying about only 1 Donk in the Hall"

So they don't think Elway belongs? That's not very nice

~the TJ spin lives on

[Fire Me Boy!]

Thmasdmddlle ithshhh thbmmmel bggetllbm dmm farmmageio!! HA HA HA! [/shannonsharpe]

[Mile High Mania]

I know that Stenerud is greatness, but Elam is better.

Stenerud - 19 years, 263 games / Elam 15 years, 220 games

FGs
Stenerud - 373 made on 558 attempts (66.8%)
Elam* - 368 made on 459 attempts (80.2%)

*NFL record 63 yarder

XPs
Stenerud - 580 made on 601 attempts (96.5%)
Elam - 568 made on 571 attempts (99.5%)

There are guys like Morten Anderson who deserve to get in as well, but Elam is gold.

[chagrin]

I know that Stenerud is greatness, but Elam is better.

Stenerud - 19 years, 263 games / Elam 15 years, 220 games

FGs
Stenerud - 373 made on 558 attempts (66.8%)
Elam* - 368 made on 459 attempts (80.2%)

*TIED NFL record 63 yarder in the thin air of Denver, Colorado.

XPs
Stenerud - 580 made on 601 attempts (96.5%)
Elam - 568 made on 571 attempts (99.5%)

There are guys like Morten Anderson who deserve to get in as well, but Elam is gold.

just being picky, that being said, I think I mght have to agree with you. I always thought Morten deserved it, Elam is good. They will get the last looks though, being kickers.

[Ugly Duck]

Who's that guy in your sig line.... ?

DeMarcus?

[chagrin]

DeMarcus?

Isn't it JaMarcus?

[ChiefsCountry]

Isn't it JaMarcus?

Did you see Blob Gretz's article.

[chagrin]

Did you see Blob Gretz's article.

I try to avoid Gretz if at all possible, I assume then, that's what he called him?

[Mile High Mania]

just being picky, that being said, I think I mght have to agree with you. I always thought Morten deserved it, Elam is good. They will get the last looks though, being kickers.

Yeah, I hear ya on the location ... but, he still made the kick. Elam's second longest is 56 yards which was done at Houston in 1995. I've seen him kick many 50+ yard FGs away from Denver that looked like they had the distance to have been from 60+.

And, regarding K's and the HOF... sadly, they don't get much attention. We'll see what happens though, Anderson should get in and Elam has the credentials already.

[ChiefsCountry]

Yep

[Rain Man]

I've just been calling him Marinovich.

[Red Dawg]

I know that Stenerud is greatness, but Elam is better.

Stenerud - 19 years, 263 games / Elam 15 years, 220 games

FGs
Stenerud - 373 made on 558 attempts (66.8%)
Elam* - 368 made on 459 attempts (80.2%)

*NFL record 63 yarder

XPs
Stenerud - 580 made on 601 attempts (96.5%)
Elam - 568 made on 571 attempts (99.5%)

There are guys like Morten Anderson who deserve to get in as well, but Elam is gold.

It's where you rank when you quit. Can't compare different eras. When Stenerud retired he was the best ever. Will Elam be able to say that?

[Mile High Mania]

It's where you rank when you quit. Can't compare different eras. When Stenerud retired he was the best ever. Will Elam be able to say that?

Ok, first you tell me not to compare eras. Then you ask me if Elam can say he was the best ever when he quits.

Well, Jan retired in the 70s... the NFL as we know it was very young compared to now, so do you want me to compare eras or not?

I see you're point - I hate comparing eras, but when comparing player to player... it's unavoidable.

[Braincase]

There could be a special wing teaching kids about performance enhancing drugs featuring video of Lyle Alzado.


AKA, I think Atwater & Mecklenberg ought to get consideration.

[ClevelandBronco]

As long as Sharpe makes it (and he's a lock) everyone else mentioned can stay on the bubble, except for Terrell. I don't think he belongs. Now that I've said that, I'll wait for someone to bring up Gayle Sayers.

[Mile High Mania]

The Terrell Davis debate is an interesting one for sure. The one thing he lacks is longevity and I've asked the question - what if he played another 3 years with average stats ... would that get your vote?

Davis did more in a short period of time than many RBs accomplish in twice the years.

I look at Curtis Martin and say, yes he has very nice stats... but, who accomplished more in their career? Who was more dominating during their time in the NFL?

I think Martin is deserving, but he doesn't have the rings... the 2,000 yard season ... the NFL MVP ... the SB MVP...

Davis doesn't have the longevity, but even with the longevity... there's a lot that Martin doesn't have in comparison.

I think both are deserving, but like I said ... it's a fun debate.

Is Jerome Bettis deserving of Canton?

[sedated]

ESPN has become a sports/celebrity popularity contest...

the real question is...Who's Now?

[sedated]

The Terrell Davis debate is an interesting one for sure.

If Terel Davis deserves it, so does Priest

[Direckshun]

I think Shannon Sharpe and Jason Elam warrant nods.

Zimm's a bubble guy, like DT sadly, who'll make it in if there's ever a couple weak years in a row. Schlereth's not going anywhere until Zimm does.

[StcChief]

Sharpe yes. Elam ? Kickers don't really go, Thin air in Denver helped him.

Terrell Davis NFW.

[cosmo20002]

You guys laughing at the Broncos because of this are nuts. I'm no Denver fan, but which would you rather have--a few hall of famers and the Chiefs' record or one and the Broncos' record?

[HemiEd]

I know that Stenerud is greatness, but Elam is better.

Stenerud - 19 years, 263 games / Elam 15 years, 220 games

FGs
Stenerud - 373 made on 558 attempts (66.8%)
Elam* - 368 made on 459 attempts (80.2%)

*NFL record 63 yarder

XPs
Stenerud - 580 made on 601 attempts (96.5%)
Elam - 568 made on 571 attempts (99.5%)

There are guys like Morten Anderson who deserve to get in as well, but Elam is gold.

Stenerud didn't do most of his kicking at 5,280 feet.

Why no love for Lyle Alzado? Doesn't he still hold the single season sack record for Denver? I know his life ended in a trajic story, but he was one hell of a Bronco.

[sedated]

You guys laughing at the Broncos because of this are nuts. I'm no Denver fan, but which would you rather have--a few hall of famers and the Chiefs' record or one and the Broncos' record?

as cheaters, or non-cheaters?

[Chiefnj2]

It wouldn't bother me if Zimmerman, Atwater and Sharpe eventually made it in.

[ClevelandBronco]

The Terrell Davis debate is an interesting one for sure. The one thing he lacks is longevity and I've asked the question - what if he played another 3 years with average stats ... would that get your vote?

Davis did more in a short period of time than many RBs accomplish in twice the years.

I look at Curtis Martin and say, yes he has very nice stats... but, who accomplished more in their career? Who was more dominating during their time in the NFL?

I think Martin is deserving, but he doesn't have the rings... the 2,000 yard season ... the NFL MVP ... the SB MVP...

Davis doesn't have the longevity, but even with the longevity... there's a lot that Martin doesn't have in comparison.

I think both are deserving, but like I said ... it's a fun debate.

Is Jerome Bettis deserving of Canton?

We'd have to quantify "average," but I think that he'd be closer with three average years. (I doubt that Terrell was capable of having average years at that point in his career. EDIT: I mean without the ACL and MCL tears.) IMO part of being HOF material is the ability to withstand the punishment the game dishes out. Davis was unquestionably on track, but I think the train derailed before it reached its destination.

I wouldn't vote for Bettis.

When I learned football I was watching Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly. After the Browns joined the AFC Central I was watching Franco Harris and Earl Campbell. Those guys may have ruined my judgement.

[Mile High Mania]

I understand the altitude remark, but look at Elam's career numbers - the guy has been stellar at all levels of altitude. As I mentioned, his 2nd best career mark is 56 yards at Houston.

I didn't intend to slight Alzado, he's just in an era that I'm not familiar with from a team perspective.

Hell, I was 6 when the Broncos went to that '77 SuperBowl and living in Arkansas... my dad is one of those guys that has a new favorite team every year, so I didn't follow any team closely aside from the Steelers of that era. I hated Dallas and I enjoyed watching the Steelers.

[Mile High Mania]

We'd have to quantify "average," but I think that he'd be closer with three average years. (I doubt that Terrell was capable of having average years at that point in his career. EDIT: I mean without the ACL and MCL tears.) IMO part of being HOF material is the ability to withstand the punishment the game dishes out. Davis was unquestionably on track, but I think the train derailed before it reached its destination.

I wouldn't vote for Bettis.

When I learned football I was watching Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly. After the Browns joined the AFC Central I was watching Franco Harris and Earl Campbell. Those guys may have ruined my judgement.

By average, I was referring to what would amount to 800-900 yards and 5-6 TDs. Nothing stellar and nothing horrible.

If 3 years of that type of production would make him a better candidate, then I say "why not seriously consider him without those 3 years"? It's not like he could have really done much more than what he had done, other than pad some stats. That's the basis of my argument.

But, all others will point to "It was Elway's team" and any RB on that team would have rocked. I don't agree with either statements, as I believe that Shanahan did an amazing job building a stellar team in a short period of time around Elway and Sharpe. Davis was the key, without question. Well, that and cheating... (sarcasm).

[Rain Man]

The Terrell Davis debate is an interesting one for sure. The one thing he lacks is longevity and I've asked the question - what if he played another 3 years with average stats ... would that get your vote?

Davis did more in a short period of time than many RBs accomplish in twice the years.

I look at Curtis Martin and say, yes he has very nice stats... but, who accomplished more in their career? Who was more dominating during their time in the NFL?

I think Martin is deserving, but he doesn't have the rings... the 2,000 yard season ... the NFL MVP ... the SB MVP...

Davis doesn't have the longevity, but even with the longevity... there's a lot that Martin doesn't have in comparison.

I think both are deserving, but like I said ... it's a fun debate.

Is Jerome Bettis deserving of Canton?


We've had this debate before, and I enjoy it, too, Broncos hatred aside.

I think a player has to have a couple of things to warrant consideration.

1. They have to be a dominant player during their era. (I don't care about comparing across eras.) I'm leaning more toward using a player's peak five-year period for evaluation purposes. Five years is long enough to eliminate the flashes in the pan, but short enough to reward guys who had short but dominating careers. I would count this as 2/3rds of the weight.

2. Total stats. I would reward guys who played longer and acquired more stats, but that shouldn't be the only criterion. Guys like Charlie Joiner should not be in the Hall of Fame, because they were never feared in the league. I would count this as 1/3 of the weight.

[Mile High Mania]

We've had this debate before, and I enjoy it, too, Broncos hatred aside.

I think a player has to have a couple of things to warrant consideration.

1. They have to be a dominant player during their era. (I don't care about comparing across eras.) I'm leaning more toward using a player's peak five-year period for evaluation purposes. Five years is long enough to eliminate the flashes in the pan, but short enough to reward guys who had short but dominating careers. I would count this as 2/3rds of the weight.

2. Total stats. I would reward guys who played longer and acquired more stats, but that shouldn't be the only criterion. Guys like Charlie Joiner should not be in the Hall of Fame, because they were never feared in the league. I would count this as 1/3 of the weight.

I hear ya, and that's the fun with the debate. The major thing against TD is longevity...

Was he dominant for a short time? Yes - 4 years.
Was he feared? Yes.
Did he change the game for the opposing defense? Yes.

As a rookie, he came out with 1,100+ yards and 7 TDs. The next 3 seasons, he exploded - 1500+, 1700+ and 2,000+ yards with 15, 15 and 23 total TDs respectively.

Should Brian Griese be banned for life from entering the state of Colorado thanks to ending TD's career on that ill-fated INT during which TD was injured? Without hesitation.

I totally understand the arguments against him. I know everyone points to Sayers for the obvious comparison and I try not to do that.

I look at guys like Monk (different position) and longevity with nice stats doesn't seem to work for him.

The longevity thing hurts him badly... burn in hell SOB. :p

Based on your comments, I would think TD hits 2/3 of your criteria...

[Amnorix]

Well, Shanarat might make it, Sharpe definitely will, and Champ Bailey is very likely to, so that's a few more.

Most of the rest of their best players are in the "very good, but not HOF worthy" category. That includes Davis (too short a career), Mecklenberg and a few others.

The current Pats dynasty is going to have the same thing ahppen. No way they get as many players in as the Packers, 49ers and Steelers dynasties did. Too many "very good, but not great" players. Bruschi -- no shot. Harrison -- very unlikely. Ty Law -- borderline. Vinateiri -- maybe, but he's "just" a kicker. McGinest -- no shot.

The only locks are Belichick, Brady and Seymour (if he keeps going like he has).

[manchambo]

If Terel Davis deserves it, so does Priest

How many superbowl MVPs did that guy get again? And 2000 seasons? And league MVPs?

[Mile High Mania]

Feel free to make the argument for Priest... and he does have a ring, IIRC ... as a backup.

[manchambo]

A couple of points on Terrell Davis:

Everyone else who has ever rushed for 2000 yards, and become eligible, had been enshrined. I will not say that it is an automatic qualifier (obviously Jamaal Lewis is not worthy at this point) but it ought to put a person on the strong consideration list.

I will grant that Gail Sayers was intangibly better than Davis. But, and this is a big but, Sayers never won a championship, bever rushed for 2000, and never won a superbowl MVP. Weighing all those factors, I just don't see how you come out with Sayers being more deserving.

[Mile High Mania]

Well, Shanarat might make it, Sharpe definitely will, and Champ Bailey is very likely to, so that's a few more.

Most of the rest of their best players are in the "very good, but not HOF worthy" category. That includes Davis (too short a career), Mecklenberg and a few others.

The current Pats dynasty is going to have the same thing ahppen. No way they get as many players in as the Packers, 49ers and Steelers dynasties did. Too many "very good, but not great" players. Bruschi -- no shot. Harrison -- very unlikely. Ty Law -- borderline. Vinateiri -- maybe, but he's "just" a kicker. McGinest -- no shot.

The only locks are Belichick, Brady and Seymour (if he keeps going like he has).

I never thought about throwing Shanny into the mix, but he has the credentials... so, yeah there's another one.

Shanahan has a record of 131 wins / 81 losses - playoffs 8 and 5

The list of head coaches in NFL history with the same or more regular season wins are as follows:

Stram, Shula, Schottenheimer, Reeves, Parcells, Owen, Knoll, Levy, Lambeau, Landry, Knox, Holmgren, Halas, Grant, Cowher, Brown

[Brock]

They'll have to be really hard up for candidates to put in TD.

[Rain Man]

How many superbowl MVPs did that guy get again? And 2000 seasons? And league MVPs?

You seem to put a lot of stock in that 2,000 yard season. If Terrell Davis had gotten nicked and missed one game and ended up with 1,960 yards, do you think it would be a difference maker in his case for the HoF?

[Mile High Mania]

You seem to put a lot of stock in that 2,000 yard season. If Terrell Davis had gotten nicked and missed one game and ended up with 1,960 yards, do you think it would be a difference maker in his case for the HoF?

I don't, it's just another thing to point to... but, I don't think it's something to point to as Exhibit A in your cause to get him into the HOF.

My case is that TD accomplished a hell of a lot in a very short window, unfortunately... more than many do in a career that spans 8-9 seasons.

[Amnorix]

A couple of points on Terrell Davis:

Everyone else who has ever rushed for 2000 yards, and become eligible, had been enshrined. I will not say that it is an automatic qualifier (obviously Jamaal Lewis is not worthy at this point) but it ought to put a person on the strong consideration list.

I will grant that Gail Sayers was intangibly better than Davis. But, and this is a big but, Sayers never won a championship, bever rushed for 2000, and never won a superbowl MVP. Weighing all those factors, I just don't see how you come out with Sayers being more deserving.

Gale Sayers is/was the Barry Sanders of his era. There was NOBODY like him that had ever been seen before, and he was otherworldly on a team that otherwise wasn't very fantastic.

TD was a great, great RB for a very short period of time, his championship seasons and his stats came with a team that happened to have one of the top 5 QBs in NFL history (much as I despite Elway, I can't dispute it -- whatever order you want to put them in, it's Montana, Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning, in my book), and he had some very good other players on offense, including a very good (albeit morally shaky *cough*) offensive line.

I see him as borderline, and not QUITE making it. If he'd had 2 more seasons at the same higher level as his other best seasons, he'd been in like Flynn, but as it stands, I leave him just a bit shy.

I won't pretend I"m a Broncos fan, however, so maybe my bias is kicking in. I'm trying to be objective however, and with a career as short as his, I'd think you'd have to be OTHERWORLDLY to get in, and I don't see him quite that way.

[shrek6849]

You seem to put a lot of stock in that 2,000 yard season. If Terrell Davis had gotten nicked and missed one game and ended up with 1,960 yards, do you think it would be a difference maker in his case for the HoF?

TD sat out about 8-12 quarters in his 2,000 yard season because we were up on the scoreboard a lot, BTW.

[Amnorix]

I never thought about throwing Shanny into the mix, but he has the credentials... so, yeah there's another one.

Shanahan has a record of 131 wins / 81 losses - playoffs 8 and 5

The list of head coaches in NFL history with the same or more regular season wins are as follows:

Stram, Shula, Schottenheimer, Reeves, Parcells, Owen, Knoll, Levy, Lambeau, Landry, Knox, Holmgren, Halas, Grant, Cowher, Brown

I think Shanarat has 5+ seasons left in him, and by the time all is said and done he's more likely than not to get in.

He'll be hurt by the perception that without Elway he couldn't get it done, but the same can be said for MOST HOF coaches. Only Gibbs can claim mutliple SBs with multiple starting QBs, I believe. Noll had Bradshaw, Landry had Staubach, Belichick has Brady, etc. ad infinitum.

[Amnorix]

TD sat out about 8-12 quarters in his 2,000 yard season because we were up on the scoreboard a lot, BTW.

Absolutely NOT relevant.

How many games did Sanders become marginalized because his team was waaay behind?

Once you get into this level of pickiness, you've lost your focus on what matters.

If you want to discuss Ted Williams losing FIVE YEARS of his career stats for being in WWII and Korea, that's one thing. A few quearters because of game-dictated situations -- sorry, doesn't fly.

[Brock]

I think Shanarat has 5+ seasons left in him, and by the time all is said and done he's more likely than not to get in.

He'll be hurt by the perception that without Elway he couldn't get it done, but the same can be said for MOST HOF coaches. Only Gibbs can claim mutliple SBs with multiple starting QBs, I believe. Noll had Bradshaw, Landry had Staubach, Belichick has Brady, etc. ad infinitum.

Plus all those coaches actually developed their HOF QB, instead of just inheriting one and riding him to the super bowl a couple of times, and being utterly mediocre before and since.

[shrek6849]

Absolutely NOT relevant.

How many games did Sanders become marginalized because his team was waaay behind?

Once you get into this level of pickiness, you've lost your focus on what matters.

If you want to discuss Ted Williams losing FIVE YEARS of his career stats for being in WWII and Korea, that's one thing. A few quearters because of game-dictated situations -- sorry, doesn't fly.

3 games is a few quarters? Because that's what it amounted to. Had we decided to run up the score on some folks, TD would have destroyed the rushing record.

[manchambo]

You seem to put a lot of stock in that 2,000 yard season. If Terrell Davis had gotten nicked and missed one game and ended up with 1,960 yards, do you think it would be a difference maker in his case for the HoF?


Maybe. You factor in a lot of stats and accomplishments to decide who goes in and who doesn't. You might say the same thing about a lot of stats. If someone hit or missed a field goal in innumerable games, their team would have or wouldn't have won a championship. Do you have a problem with factoring in whether someone won championships in deciding whether they should be enshrined?

[Frazod]

They should at least induct a can of Pam and a bottle of thin air. 4321

[Messier]

Do you have a problem with factoring in whether someone won championships in deciding whether they should be enshrined?

I do. There are alot of players that were integral in getting their team a championship, but they don't belong in the hall of fame. Davis had one great, and a few really good seasons, that's not enough.

[Adept Havelock]

one of the top 5 QBs in NFL history (much as I despite Elway, I can't dispute it -- whatever order you want to put them in, it's Montana, Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning, in my book),


Maybe it's an era issue, but I have to bring up one man that (IMO) is a glaring omission from that list, and far more worthy than Marino.


Not just what he did, but when he did it. Especially considering the WR/DB rules of the time.

Again, JMO.

Great take on Sayers and TD. I just don't see TD as HOF material.
.

[OctoberFart]

Champ Bailey will get in when he is eligible, Smith probably since he was an undrafted FA, and Sharpe will get in. What else do they have to piss and moan about? Davis didn't last long enough and had a 3 year career.

[Amnorix]

3 games is a few quarters? Because that's what it amounted to. Had we decided to run up the score on some folks, TD would have destroyed the rushing record.

:rolleyes:

[Amnorix]

Maybe it's an era issue, but I have to bring up one man that (IMO) is a glaring omission from that list, and far more worthy than Marino.


Not just what he did, but when he did it. Especially considering the WR/DB rules of the time.

Again, JMO.

Great take on Sayers and TD. I just don't see TD as HOF material.
.

I have no problem with Unitas. None at all. I love those old Colts teams, with Berry and Art Donovan and some other tremendous talent.

Problem is, never having seen him, I don't really know how to rank him against the others that I have seen. And stats tell us little because the eras were so different.

Otto Graham is also mentioned by some, but again, no clue. :shrug:

[milkman]

Gale Sayers is/was the Barry Sanders of his era. There was NOBODY like him that had ever been seen before, and he was otherworldly on a team that otherwise wasn't very fantastic.

Gale Sayers was far more versatile than Barry Sanders, and was more exciting to watch, and knew when to take what was there, a trait that Sanders lacked.

Sanders was fun to watch, but Sayers was by far the most exciting.

[Messier]

Champ Bailey will get in when he is eligible, Smith probably since he was an undrafted FA, and Sharpe will get in. What else do they have to piss and moan about? Davis didn't last long enough and had a 3 year career.


The only other Bronco going is Sharpe. Smith was good but he was never even the best at any time he was playing, so no. Bailey, maybe, but for the Redskins and the Broncos.

[Tribal Warfare]

Easy two Donks are on staff Tom Jackson, and Mark Schlereth and that's why their bitching those two are whining.

[Tribal Warfare]

Davis doesn't have the longevity, but even with the longevity.



The only person that was so god damn good that can say that longevity doesn't mean shit is Gale Sayers period. he was one BAD MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tk13]

I have a hard time with the Davis thing... he was so dominant. His career numbers aren't quite awesome. I can understand if he gets in, I definitely don't think one 2000 yard season makes it a lock. He did have the 7th highest carry total ever that season... a great season but it wasn't like Barry Sanders who ran for 6 ypc.

Priest is the same way... he's not gonna have the Super Bowls, but it's not his fault he played with a horrible defense and Terrell Davis played with a good one. Priest did last a bit longer and did win a Super Bowl as a backup.

If Priest can actually play this year, he could start to make a run to make his career numbers HOF worthy, I think. Seriously. Most people don't realize... if Priest scored 6 rushing touchdowns this year, he'd pass the likes of Curtis Martin and Eric Dickerson to move into the top 10 rushing TD's all time. And into the top 20 of total TD's scored, all time. And I'm not sure there's anyone on those lists who isn't in the HOF. That's crazy for a guy who peaked for about 3 and a half years.

All-time rushing TD leaders:
1. E. Smith 164
2. M. Allen 123
3. W. Payton 110
4. J. Brown 106
5. J. Riggins 104
6. M. Faulk 100
7. *L. Tomlinson 100
8. B. Sanders 99
9. *S. Alexander 96
10. J. Bettis 91
11. F. Harris 91
12. C. Martin 90
13. E. Dickerson 90
14. P. Holmes 86

He also needs about 700-800 yards to move into the top 25 of rushing yards. That might be a bit of a stretch, we don't even know if he could play... but if Priest could just be a serviceable backup for two seasons, with around 350 yards, 3 TD's....

He would probably end up around the top 10 in rushing TDs, top 20 total TDs, top 25 rushing yards, and top 40 total yardage all-time.

[OctoberFart]

The only other Bronco going is Sharpe. Smith was good but he was never even the best at any time he was playing, so no. Bailey, maybe, but for the Redskins and the Broncos.

Bailey will go as a Bronco since that is when he has seperated himself from the rest of the CB's in the league. I think Smith has about a 50-50 chance.

[ClevelandBronco]

All-time rushing TD leaders:...
4. J. Brown 106...

Everyone should keep in mind that Jim Brown played 12 games per season. Not 16.

His numbers are untouchable IMO.

[CHIEF4EVER]

Everyone should keep in mind that Jim Brown played 12 games per season. Not 16.

His numbers are untouchable IMO.

I agree. In his era he was beyond dominant.

[Messier]

Everyone should keep in mind that Jim Brown played 12 games per season. Not 16.

His numbers are untouchable IMO.


I feel this way about many players from other eras. When people call a player from today "the best ever" I think that's irresponsible. The modern game can't be compared or judged with the past. How does anyone know if Don Hudson wasn't the best WR ever. He played in a different time, with different rules and equipment, and numbers aside he could have been the best ever, over Jerry Rice.

[Dr. Van Halen]

I feel this way about many players from other eras. When people call a player from today "the best ever" I think that's irresponsible. The modern game can't be compared or judged with the past. How does anyone know if Don Hudson wasn't the best WR ever. He played in a different time, with different rules and equipment, and numbers aside he could have been the best ever, over Jerry Rice.

Amen. Hudson freaking invented the pass route. I think Jerry Rice may well be one of the five most overrated players in NFL history.

[milkman]

Overrated?

I'm not a Jerry Rice fan, but the fact is he put huge numbers that his contemporaries didn't match.

He made plays, he turned short passes into huge gains, and he made scrubs like Jeff Kemp and Steve Bono look like actual NFL QBs.

[Mile High Mania]

I'm interested in the other 4 on that most over-rated list... insane.

[Dr. Van Halen]

Overrated?

I'm not a Jerry Rice fan, but the fact is he put huge numbers that his contemporaries didn't match.

He made plays, he turned short passes into huge gains, and he made scrubs like Jeff Kemp and Steve Bono look like actual NFL QBs.


You are joking, aren't you? Most of his career was with Montana and Young. He didn't make Kemp or Bono look like anything, otherwise you wouldn't be joking about them.

Rice played against the NFC West, a generally horrific division. The most talented DB he faced for 6 games each season was Toi Cook. That says something.

His stats, which are amazing, are the product of the amazing system. Show me one game he won by himself. Of course you can't, because that whole offense was brilliant.

When I say he is overrated, I don't mean he wasn't a great WR. I have heard people claim that he was not only the best WR, but the best PLAYER of all time. That's nonsense, thus, he is overrated.

[pikesome]

You are joking, aren't you? Most of his career was with Montana and Young. He didn't make Kemp or Bono look like anything, otherwise you wouldn't be joking about them.

Rice played against the NFC West, a generally horrific division. The most talented DB he faced for 6 games each season was Toi Cook. That says something.

His stats, which are amazing, are the product of the amazing system. Show me one game he won by himself. Of course you can't, because that whole offense was brilliant.

When I say he is overrated, I don't mean he wasn't a great WR. I have heard people claim that he was not only the best WR, but the best PLAYER of all time. That's nonsense, thus, he is overrated.

That's nonsense. It can be argued he's not the greatest ever but he has to be part of the discussion. His stats, longevity and championships demand it. Especially compared to his peers. You say the offense was brilliant, maybe it was because Rice was playing?

[Dr. Van Halen]

That's nonsense. It can be argued he's not the greatest ever but he has to be part of the discussion. His stats, longevity and championships demand it. Especially compared to his peers. You say the offense was brilliant, maybe it was because Rice was playing?

Are you really ready to say Rice is the greatest of all time? Do you really think the 49ers wouldn't have done what they did without him?

[milkman]

That's nonsense. It can be argued he's not the greatest ever but he has to be part of the discussion. His stats, longevity and championships demand it. Especially compared to his peers. You say the offense was brilliant, maybe it was because Rice was playing?

I think he definitely has to be part of the discussion.

I wasn't joking about Kemp, or Bono.

In the mid 80s, Montana missed 3 or 4 games that Kemp started, and Kemp put up some pretty good numbers.

A couple of 300 yard passing games, I think, and completed 60% of his passes, or therabouts.

Seattle traded for him and never came close to duplicating those numbers.

And Bono had some pretty good games there as well.

[pikesome]

Are you really ready to say Rice is the greatest of all time? Do you really think the 49ers wouldn't have done what they did without him?

Dunno, I'm not old enough to remember players much before the 49ers got great. He's got a good claim on GOAT status, as good as any player could in a team sport with many different positions and eras. I will admit that we loss sight of past greatness all too easy, look at ESPN's list of probable HoFs, half of them are rookies or 2nd year guys. But just because people don't respect the past enough, often enough, doesn't diminish Rice's achievements.

[Dr. Van Halen]

Dunno, I'm not old enough to remember players much before the 49ers got great. He's got a good claim on GOAT status, as good as any player could in a team sport with many different positions and eras. I will admit that we loss sight of past greatness all too easy, look at ESPN's list of probable HoFs, half of them are rookies or 2nd year guys. But just because people don't respect the past enough, often enough, doesn't diminish Rice's achievements.

Well, then, we disagree. Fair enough.

And I think Mr. Milkman's point about Bono and Kemp demonstrates that it was the offense itself that was brilliant.

For example, many of us would argue that T. Davis has no business going to the Hall of Fame. Why? I would argue that the success of the RB's who followed him show that his great numbers were the product of an offense -- or, more specifically, a blocking scheme.

[Messier]

I wish you could make every player that is deemed "great", or one of the best, play for crappy teams at some point where they are the only good part of that team. It has happened, and it's those players that rose above the players around them and still were great that earn that title in my opinion. Elway, and Montana come to mind Barry Sanders too. Here are some overrated players Bradshaw, Namath, Davis, Rice, Troy Aikman, Shannon Sharpe to name a few.

[Messier]

Bailey will go as a Bronco since that is when he has seperated himself from the rest of the CB's in the league. I think Smith has about a 50-50 chance.


I agree that Baily, if he goes will go as a Bronco, I see him as a player like Mike Haynes, he went as a Raider but was just as effective the first half of his career as a Patriot.

Smith is NOT going to the HOF, it's difficult enough to make it as a WR, let alone a good but not great one. I put Smith in a group like, McCardell, Joe Horn, Rison, Bruce, players like that, none of those are going to the hall. There are players I think are better that are on the edge, Jimmy Smith, Herman Moore, Ward.

[milkman]

Well, then, we disagree. Fair enough.

And I think Mr. Milkman's point about Bono and Kemp demonstrates that it was the offense itself that was brilliant.

For example, many of us would argue that T. Davis has no business going to the Hall of Fame. Why? I would argue that the success of the RB's who followed him show that his great numbers were the product of an offense -- or, more specifically, a blocking scheme.

My point about Kemp and Bono illustrates how Rice made them so much more than they were.

His ability to stretch defenses and make big plays out of the short passing game had as much to do with the brilliance of that offense as the scheme itself.

No other team that has used that west coast offense has been able to produce the kind of offensive output that the 9ers did.

Why?

Becasue no one else had a Rice to make it work the same.

[Dr. Van Halen]

My point about Kemp and Bono illustrates how Rice made them so much more than they were.

His ability to stretch defenses and make big plays out of the short passing game had as much to do with the brilliance of that offense as the scheme itself.

No other team that has used that west coast offense has been able to produce the kind of offensive output that the 9ers did.

Why?

Becasue no one else had a Rice to make it work the same.

Stretch defenses? Rice wasn't fast.

I think you are giving Rice way too much credit. It was a great team and a great scheme. It produced the kind of output it did because 1)it took other teams a while to figure out how to defend this somewhat new attack, and 2)the NFC West was really, really bad.

I give Rice credit. He could catch the short pass over the middle and really turn it into something great. That does not make him the greatest player of all time.

Put Rice on the winless Buccs and see how he does.

[milkman]

Stretch defenses? Rice wasn't fast.

I think you are giving Rice way too much credit. It was a great team and a great scheme. It produced the kind of output it did because 1)it took other teams a while to figure out how to defend this somewhat new attack, and 2)the NFC West was really, really bad.

I give Rice credit. He could catch the short pass over the middle and really turn it into something great. That does not make him the greatest player of all time.

Put Rice on the winless Buccs and see how he does.

Yeah, Rice had a slow time on the clock.

Yet, when he went deep, he seemingly always got behind the corners.

Bill Walsh became the HC in SF in '79 and Rice was drafted in '85.

Defenses had 6 years to figure out how to defend this "somewhat new attack" before Rice ever stepped onto an NFL field.

The fact is, that west coast offense that Walsh "innovated" was nothing more than a variation of Hank Stram's "offense of the 70s", which in turn was nothing more than a variation of Sid Gillman's short passing game from the 50's.

[HemiEd]

Everyone should keep in mind that Jim Brown played 12 games per season. Not 16.

His numbers are untouchable IMO.

He did it with less than friendly tackling rules for the RB, compared to now as well.
See Gale Sayers.

[Dr. Van Halen]

The fact is, that west coast offense that Walsh "innovated" was nothing more than a variation of Hank Stram's "offense of the 70s", which in turn was nothing more than a variation of Sid Gillman's short passing game from the 50's.

Yeah, doesn't all of this Walsh talk recently about what a genius he was drive you crazy? Hank Stram ran pretty much the same thing and took the Chiefs to two SB's with it.

[milkman]

Yeah, doesn't all of this Walsh talk recently about what a genius he was drive you crazy? Hank Stram ran pretty much the same thing and took the Chiefs to two SB's with it.

I find it to be a bit of overzealous hyperbole to give him credit for creating the west coast offense.

He was a genius because he understood how effective the short passing elements of Gillman's offense could be in the NFL at that time.

[Hoofbeats]

Silly Chief fans...LOL

Broncos who deserve the HOF

1960's
1) Lionel Taylor- AFL's best WR, the Jerry Rice of his era, led the AFL in catches for 6 consecutive years, 1st receiver in NFL history to catch 100 passes in 1 season and did it in 14 games, surpased in the 1960's only by HOFer Don Maynard, and exceeded HOFer Lance Allworth in receptions. Four time AFL All Star who who had the highest 6 year reception total in pro football history. Played on horrible teams where he was the only offensive weapon yet dominated.

2) Goose Gosoulin- AFL's best defensive back, he finished his career as the leagues all time leading interceptor with 46, and was a 6 time AFL All Star. Gosoulin's INT totals compared favorably with NFL HOF safeties Ken Houston (49 in 8 more seasons), Mel Renfro (52 in 7 more seasons), Larry Wilson (52 in 5 more seasons) and Willie Wood (48 in 4 more seasons). 11 INT's in one season for Denver still tied for the team record (Bailey/2006).

1960's-1970's
3) Floyd Little- Retired as the 7th leading rusher in NFL history on a team where he was nicknamed "the franchise", with all 6 players ahead of him in the HOF. Led the NFL two consecutive years in all purpose yardage from scrimage, and from 1968-1973 led the league in both rushing and total yards; a two time NFL rushing champion who was a one man band for Denver and was a major threat as a punt returner as well. Smallest NFL runner to win the rushing title since before WWII and credited with single handedly saving Denver's franchise from moving...a 5 time AFL and NFL All Star.

1970's-1980's
4) Randy Gradishar- Leader of the famed "orange crush" defense, Gradishar was a peerless tackling machine who notched over 2000 in his career and AVERAGED an amazing 15+ per game; a 7 time pro bowler playing in the same era and conference with Steelers great Jack Lambert, Gradishar was the NFL's consensus defensive player of the year in 1978 after leading Denver to it's 1st Superbowl appearance.

5) Louis Wright- ranked with HOF CB's Mike Haynes of the Raiders and Mel Blount of the Steelers as the NFL's best cornerback of the 1970's; a 5 time pro bowler on one of the NFL's best defenses, and blessed with blazing speed and silky smooth reflexes, opposing QB's preferred not to test him.

6) Karl Mecklenburg- The "Albino Rhino" played 7 positions on defense, made the pro bowl 6 times and notched 80 sacks as one of the 1980's most versitile defensive players. Leader of a defense that won 4 conference championships, he was one of the best late draft picks in NFL history selected in the 12th round the same year Elway was drafted.

1990's
7) Steve Atwater- The 8 time pro bowl safety teamed with Dennis Smith to form one of the most feared safety tandems in NFL history. Atwater was one of the leagues most vicious hitters who controlled the line of scrimage while in the box and struck fear in receivers hearts. A member of the NFL's All Decade team for the 1990's he captained Denver's defense in 3 superbowls and won two, including a dominating performance in SB XXXII. Christian Okoye remembers him well.

8) Dennis Smith- the other half of the duo, Smith was All Pro 4 times, and went to 6 pro bowls, leading Denver to 3 Superbowls. In his era only Ronnie Lott hit harder...30 INT's and over 1100 tackles in his career.

9) Gary Zimmerman- Selected 1st or 2nd team All Pro 8 times, and the only offensive lineman named to NFL's All Decade Team in both the 80's and 90's, he sealed Elways blind side in Denver's 1st Superbowl win over Green Bay.

10) Terrel Davis- Like Gayle Sayers his career was cut short early by injury but his list of accomplishments is impressive; 1 of only 5 NFL players to rush for 2,000 yards in a season (Dickerson, Sanders, Simpson, Lewis), 1 of only 3 (Smpson, Brown) to rush for 1000 in 7 games, TD had the 3rd highest first four years rushing total in NFL history (Dickerson, Cambell), and the highest number of touchdowns (56), won 2 AP NFL Player of the Year honors, won NFL MVP honors, Superbowl MVP honors, NFL rookie of the year honors and totaled nearly 9,000 yards total offense in 7 years despite spending his last 3 injured. Davis was a 2007 NFL Hall of Fame semifinalist in his first year of eligibility.

11) Shanon Sharpe- The most prolific tight end receiving threat in NFL history, Sharpe is a 4 time All pro and 8 time pro bowler with 3 Superbowl rings. He's a sure fire 1st ballot future HOF member.

12) Mike Shanahan- Already probably headed to the HOF, Shanahan has coached the NFL's most prolific offenses over the course of his career and is the architect of the NFL's best rushing offense over the last 12 seasons. Another title will clinch it for him. The NFL's most powerful coach with GM and VP titles and a lifetime contract from owner Pat Bowlen, Shanahan has complete control over all football operations, and should coach another 10-15 years if he wishes to.

Current Players
13) Tom Nalen- 14 year pro with 7 pro bowl appearances on his resume to go with 2 Lombardi championships, Nalen has blocked for 1000 yard rushers 11 times and was the leader of one of the NFL's best offensive lines throughout the last decade.

14) Rod Smith- His numbers are better than Michael Irvins if he retires today...849 catches, 11,389 receiving yards, nearly 13,000 yards total offense, 68 TD's, 570 1st downs, 8 seasons over 1000 yards, plus he's the best blocking WR of his era on a team that places far more emphais on receivers blocking than any other in the NFL. Smith acomplished his amazing career despite playing only 2 seasons as a starter with Elway as his QB. The only undrafted receiver in NFL history to exceed 10,000 yards in his career, Smith dominated Green Bay's All Pro safety Leroy Butler in SB XXXII, clearing the way for Davis to rush for 150 yards and 3 TD's in only 3 quarters, then came back in the next SB against Atlanta to break the game open with an 80 yard bomb from Elway. His 2001 season with over 1300 yards and 11 TD's on a bad leg is one of the guttiest performances ever. One of the toughest players in the NFL, Smith played the 2006 season with a hip that should have been surgically repaired. Coming into 2007, Smith had never missed a practice or a single scheduled workout in his Bronco career.

15) Champ Bailey- Does anyone seriously think he won't be in Canton?

[milkman]

The Donkeys of the 60s sucked ass and there won't be anyone from that era to make it into the HoF.

The 70s they weren't as bad, but Floyd Little?

Please.

After that, the guys you mention were overhyped asswipes.

Gradishar, Mecklinberg?

Give me a ****ing break.

Sharpe and Bailey are deserving and will make it.

Almost everyone else you bring up is a marginal candidate, ay best.

[Messier]

Well if those Broncos deserve the hall then heres a list of more Chiefs the should, nay, must go:
Ed Budde: 7 time PB
Jim Tyrer: 9 time PB
Otis Taylor: 3 time PB, the prototypical big strong receiver
Emmitt Thomas: 5 time PB
Johnny Robinson: 7 time PB
Jerry Mays: 7 time PB
E.J. Holub: 5 time PB
Deron Cherry: 6 time PB
Albert Lewis: 4 time PB

[Mark M]

Question for the "Terrell Davis should be in the HOF" crowd:

If Jamal Lewis were to never play another down in the NFL, would you consider him worthy of the HOF?

Seriously ... both he and TD had 2,000 yard seasons, each helped lead his team to a Super Bowl, and their stats are quite comparable. Jamal also holds the single game rushing record.

So if TD is in, then Lewis should get serious consideration.

And so should Priest -- his career has been hampered by injuries, yet he has the same YPC as TD, more TDs, more receiving yards, and was arguably a better all-around RB.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Other than that, here's what I wrote a few days ago on ESPN:

Even I, as a lifelong Chiefs fan, have to agree that it's odd so few Broncos are in the hall. Sharpe and Atwater deserve in, no doubt, while Rod Smith and Champ Bailey both have shots (probably Bailey more so than Smith).

The case for Terrell Davis can be argued, but Denver's success with sticking no-names in the backfield who rack up 1,000-yard seasons hurts his case -- one can seriously question whether he was that great, or just running behind an unbelievable (if legally questionable in terms of tactics) offensive line. (Note: I'd also like to add for the folks here at CP that, IMHO, TD would have been good on any other team, but not as good as he was with Denver.)

I think some of the reasons are:

1.) Location -- insert "East Coast Bias!" rant here;

2.) sucking in the Super Bowl -- yes, they won those two late, but before that they were embarrassed time and time and time again;

3.) Many don't remember that they sucked for a long, long, long time -- my dad has told me stories about how, in the late 60's and early 70s, KC fans would cheer when Denver scored because the game was pretty much a blowout and they pitied the Broncos;

4.) While they've had good teams, they really haven't had that many truly "great" players -- Sharpe has set the standard for receiving TEs, and Elway is ... well, Elway; but other than that, they just simply didn't have any truly mind-blowingly good players.

Good discussion regardless, though ...

MM
~~:hmmm:

[Mark M]

Well if those Broncos deserve the hall then heres a list of more Chiefs the should, nay, must go:
Ed Budde: 7 time PB
Jim Tyrer: 9 time PB
Otis Taylor: 3 time PB, the prototypical big strong receiver
Emmitt Thomas: 5 time PB
Johnny Robinson: 7 time PB
Jerry Mays: 7 time PB
E.J. Holub: 5 time PB
Deron Cherry: 6 time PB
Albert Lewis: 4 time PB

The fact Robinson and Tyrer aren't in makes me want to vomit -- both were freaking rocks on championship teams for years on end.

MM
~~:cuss:

[milkman]

The fact Robinson and Tyrer aren't in makes me want to vomit -- both were freaking rocks on championship teams for years on end.

MM
~~:cuss:

Let's not forget about Emmitt Thomas, who was a shutdown corner that is 8th on the list of all time interceptions.

[Hoofbeats]

The Donkeys of the 60s sucked ass and there won't be anyone from that era to make it into the HoF.

The 70s they weren't as bad, but Floyd Little?

Please.
So a guy retiring as the 7th leading rusher in NFL history who played on a team with no help shouldn't make it in when the 6 above him all did? No...I guess there's no bias here on your part...LOL
After that, the guys you mention were overhyped asswipes.

Gradishar, Mecklinberg?

Give me a ****ing break.
Gradishar was better than Willie Lanier, and had more than twice as many tackles in his career, and nearly 600 more than Mike Singletary.
Sharpe and Bailey are deserving and will make it.

Almost everyone else you bring up is a marginal candidate, ay best.
Shanahan won't make it? You're dreaming. Davis is already a semi-finalist in his first year of eligiblity so he's got a great shot.

I guess 40 years without sniffing the Bowl dulls the senses...LOL

[Rain Man]

I'm offended that you would even mention Gradishar in the same sentence as Lanier. Actually, I'm offended that I just did, but I had no choice, or otherwise the sentence wouldn't have made any sense.

Lanier had guys like Gradishar mow his lawn and clip his toenails. Gradishar didn't belong on the same field as Lanier, and keep in mind that Gradishar was pretty darn good.

I think the most delusional Broncos fan claims for the Hall of Fame are Louis Wright and Tom Jackson. What is it with them? No one in the division feared them, cared about them, game-planned them, or remembers them today. For crying out loud, Bob Swenson was twice the linebacker that Tom Jackson was. It would add a lot of credibility to the Broncos' fans claims for Gradishar and Mecklenburg (who I hated) if they would drop the drivel about Wright and Jackson. Jeez, I wish Dave Szott and Lloyd Burruss were in the hall of fame, but I'm objective enough to know it's not going to happen.

[Mile High Mania]

I've never really considered Tom Jackson when making a pitch for Broncos that should be in Canton... I think some try to make a case for too many guys. Yes, I think there should be more than just Elway, but over the course of the next 4-5 years... there will be 1 or 2 more.

It's not a topic that gets me all up in arms, I didn't even watch the ceremony yesterday.

[L.A. Chieffan]

One thing's for sure, Terrell Davis does NOT belong so they can just stop that train before it even leaves the station.

[Mile High Mania]

One thing's for sure, Terrell Davis does NOT belong so they can just stop that train before it even leaves the station.

I'm fine either way... I could support both arguments, but his eligibility happens in 6 short months, so get ready for the media debates.

[Rain Man]

I've never really considered Tom Jackson when making a pitch for Broncos that should be in Canton... I think some try to make a case for too many guys. Yes, I think there should be more than just Elway, but over the course of the next 4-5 years... there will be 1 or 2 more.

It's not a topic that gets me all up in arms, I didn't even watch the ceremony yesterday.


I boycotted the ceremony because of Thurman Thomas.

[Mark M]

Gradishar was better than Willie Lanier, and had more than twice as many tackles in his career, and nearly 600 more than Mike Singletary.

That sentence right there proves no one should ever listen to a word you say about football ever again.

Not that many people did, but that has to be the dumbest thing ever posted in the history of the Internet. Seriously ... you're a ****ing idiot.

MM
~~:shake:

[Mark M]

I'm fine either way... I could support both arguments, but his eligibility happens in 6 short months, so get ready for the media debates.

I realize you're not pushing for TD to get in, but I'm surprised no one has addressed my question:

If TD deserves in, doesn't Jamal Lewis? Again, comparable stats, both had 2K seasons, both helped their team win Super Bowls.

Not sure how one can argue for one over the other (not saying you are ... just saying).

MM
~~:hmmm:

[Amnorix]

Amen. Hudson freaking invented the pass route. I think Jerry Rice may well be one of the five most overrated players in NFL history.

You're nuts. Rice CRUSHED every record that a WR can have. He is to WRs what Babe Ruth is to hitting. So absurdly better than anyone else to ever have played that it's practically incomprehensible.

[Amnorix]

Yeah, Rice had a slow time on the clock.

Yet, when he went deep, he seemingly always got behind the corners.

Bill Walsh became the HC in SF in '79 and Rice was drafted in '85.

Defenses had 6 years to figure out how to defend this "somewhat new attack" before Rice ever stepped onto an NFL field.

The fact is, that west coast offense that Walsh "innovated" was nothing more than a variation of Hank Stram's "offense of the 70s", which in turn was nothing more than a variation of Sid Gillman's short passing game from the 50's.

Read Belichick's praise of Walsh, and you'll come away with a different sense of Walsh's irelevance, if that's what you're suggesting.

[Amnorix]

I boycotted the ceremony because of Thurman Thomas.

Why, I'm curious to know? Thomas was the engine that made those Bills teams go, really. I don't know what his percentage of touches was, but it was ridiculous.

[OnTheWarpath15]

TD sat out about 8-12 quarters in his 2,000 yard season because we were up on the scoreboard a lot, BTW.

Really?

You're telling us that Terrell Davis sat out 2-3 GAMES during that season because the Broncos were blowing teams out?

Yet he STILL carried the ball 392 times in the regular season. Interesting.

So according to you, had he not been pulled, he would have been on pace to carry the ball 475 times.

So, summing up:

You're full of shit.

[Mark M]

Read Belichick's praise of Walsh, and you'll come away with a different sense of Walsh's irelevance, if that's what you're suggesting.

I'm no mind reader, but I don't think that's what he was suggesting.

I think he was suggesting that both Gillman and Stram innovated that offense before Walsh got a hold of it. Which is the truth.

IMHO, that really doesn't matter -- Walsh then made it his very own and is easy one of the top NFL coaches of all time. Again, IMHO, he's behind Lombardi, Brown, Knoll and Halas. And right ahead of you're boy.

MM
~~:shrug:

[Rain Man]

Why, I'm curious to know? Thomas was the engine that made those Bills teams go, really. I don't know what his percentage of touches was, but it was ridiculous.

His ego annoyed me to no end. He was always taking little shots at Barry Sanders and claiming that he was better than Barry, when anyone with a spinal cord and rudimentary brain stem could see that Thomas was to Barry Sanders as the grassy knoll is to Mount Everest.

Plus, when the Chiefs made the AFC Championship game in 1993, they lost to the Bills and at the end of the game Thurman Thomas was making faces at the Chiefs. The only reason Buffalo won that game was Montana's injury, and it just gave Thomas another chance to choke in a big game. Thomas is the biggest choke artist in big games this side of ... Chiefs kickers.

[Rain Man]

Really?

You're telling us that Terrell Davis sat out 2-3 GAMES during that season because the Broncos were blowing teams out?

Yet he STILL carried the ball 392 times in the regular season. Interesting.

So according to you, had he not been pulled, he would have been on pace to carry the ball 475 times.

So, summing up:

You're full of shit.


(Chortle.) You blew him out of the water like the Japs at Pearl Harbor.

[Rain Man]

I realize you're not pushing for TD to get in, but I'm surprised no one has addressed my question:

If TD deserves in, doesn't Jamal Lewis? Again, comparable stats, both had 2K seasons, both helped their team win Super Bowls.

Not sure how one can argue for one over the other (not saying you are ... just saying).

MM
~~:hmmm:

Nice point on that whole Lewis thing.

[Hoofbeats]

That sentence right there proves no one should ever listen to a word you say about football ever again.

Not that many people did, but that has to be the dumbest thing ever posted in the history of the Internet. Seriously ... you're a ****ing idiot.

MM
~~:shake:
Ha Ha!...the truth hurts doesn't it? If you liked that one you'll love this too; Gradishar had almost 1400 more tackles than Derrick Thomas' 649...LOL...several sources state this including this one: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/printthread.php?t=162701

Now as for the rest...which statement do you dispute, that Gradishar has over twice as many tackles as Lanier, or that he had over 600 more than Singletary? You're team's own website (http://www.kcchiefs.com/player/donnie_edwards/) claims that Gary Spani is the franchise leader with 999, and since that's more than Lanier had, my statement is obviously true since Gradishar had over 2,000. Singletary had 1488 career tackles which is nearly 600 fewer than Gradishar, so that one's true also. ;)

[Messier]

Ha Ha!...the truth hurts doesn't it? If you liked that one you'll love this too; Gradishar had almost 1400 more tackles than Derrick Thomas' 649...LOL...several sources state this including this one: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/printthread.php?t=162701

Now as for the rest...which statement do you dispute, that Gradishar has over twice as many tackles as Lanier, or that he had over 600 more than Singletary? You're team's own website (http://www.kcchiefs.com/player/donnie_edwards/) claims that Gary Spani is the franchise leader with 999, and since that's more than Lanier had, my statement is obviously true since Gradishar had over 2,000. Singletary had 1488 career tackles which is nearly 600 fewer than Gradishar, so that one's true also. ;)

Who cares about tackle numbers? No one gets into the hall based on tackle numbers. Lanier is better than Gradishar, and I hate to even have to make this argument, because he revolutionized the position of middle linebacker. Your arguing who's best based on a stat that's not really that important, because frankly tackles are easy to get, and besides you, no one cares about them, I've seen mediocre players lead their team in tackles, and if these mediocre plays played for a lone time I'll bet they'd get lots and lots of tackles, I would never begin to call them the best. I'll bet Gradishar has more tackles than Lawrence Taylor, are you going to say he was better? You're making a bad argument, stop.

[Rain Man]

Tackles are defined by the team. They aren't a standard stat. That's why the Falcons have the top fourteen tacklers in the league every year. I'm not even going to justify this discussion by comparing Gradishar to the Chiefs' Hall of Fame linebackers.

[OnTheWarpath15]

(Chortle.) You blew him out of the water like the Japs at Pearl Harbor.

Thanks for the compliment.

Not feeling too good about being compared to the Japs on one of the darkest days in US history, but I guess it fits.



:(

[Rain Man]

Thanks for the compliment.

Not feeling too good about being compared to the Japs on one of the darkest days in US history, but I guess it fits.



:(


Like the Sioux at Custer's Last Stand?


Jeez, isn't there a great surprise attack where the Americans won?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Like the Sioux at Custer's Last Stand?


Jeez, isn't there a great surprise attack where the Americans won?


I'll take the Sioux. Custer was an egomaniacal idiot who deserved what he got.

Being associated with the Japs just rubbed me wrong.



;)

[Mark M]

Ha Ha!...the truth hurts doesn't it? If you liked that one you'll love this too; Gradishar had almost 1400 more tackles than Derrick Thomas' 649...LOL...several sources state this including this one: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/printthread.php?t=162701

Now as for the rest...which statement do you dispute, that Gradishar has over twice as many tackles as Lanier, or that he had over 600 more than Singletary? You're team's own website (http://www.kcchiefs.com/player/donnie_edwards/) claims that Gary Spani is the franchise leader with 999, and since that's more than Lanier had, my statement is obviously true since Gradishar had over 2,000. Singletary had 1488 career tackles which is nearly 600 fewer than Gradishar, so that one's true also. ;)

Rain Man adequately addressed your stupidity -- tackles are a team stat (meaning that teams track and tally them) not an offical NFL stat (no one at the league office tracks or tallies them).

Thus, you trying to say Gradishar is better than Lanier or Singletary shows, once again, how little you comprehend about football. No one who knows anything about the league would try to make such an asinine assertion.

You know, if it weren't for Mile High Mania, I'd be convinced that all Denver fans are clinically retarded.

MM
~~:shake:

[stevieray]

Elway doesn't throw a fit and refuse to play for Indy, that would be big fat zero for the Invescos and the HOF, and it would prolly stay that way.

[Mile High Mania]

Elway doesn't throw a fit and refuse to play for Indy, that would be big fat zero for the Invescos and the HOF, and it would prolly stay that way.

Phhhttt... he was never going to be drafted by Indy.

[stevieray]

Phhhttt... he was never going to be drafted by Indy.

:rolleyes:

[DomCasual]

You seem to put a lot of stock in that 2,000 yard season. If Terrell Davis had gotten nicked and missed one game and ended up with 1,960 yards, do you think it would be a difference maker in his case for the HoF?

But, on the other hand, it was very common that year for TD to come out in the 3rd Quarter, play one drive, and sit the rest of the game. The Broncos had a lot of games that year that were over at halftime. So, if he doesn't do that, does he hit 2,300 yards? 2,400? He ended up sitting out the equivalent of almost three full games.

At the end of the day, 2,000 yards is a big deal. And to answer your question, even 1,999 yards would have been looked at differently. That may not be fair, but it's the way it is, IMO.

[DomCasual]

I realize you're not pushing for TD to get in, but I'm surprised no one has addressed my question:

If TD deserves in, doesn't Jamal Lewis? Again, comparable stats, both had 2K seasons, both helped their team win Super Bowls.

Not sure how one can argue for one over the other (not saying you are ... just saying).

MM
~~:hmmm:

I'll take the bait.

I think he needs a few more years, but then I think he has a shot.

I'll preface this by saying I think the whole Hall of Fame voting process is a complete joke. I could go into a diatribe about that, but I'll spare you.

The bottom line is that when you get down to the final fifteen, the voters love stuff like 2,000 yard seasons, NFL single-game rushing records, etc. And, you get down to the final group, and your city's representative gets up to plead your case - well, throwing out those types if fun facts makes for some good sound bytes. And when you have clowns like Dr. Z holding one of only forty votes, it isn't a difficult group to impress with sound bytes.

BUT, as much as they love those sound bytes, they HATE character issues (even though they're instructed not to consider them when they vote). Lewis has that going against them, while TD was always a strong character guy. Throw in that TD had the Super Bowl MVP (and the second Lombardi Trophy), and I think TD is way ahead in the game, if Lewis career ended today.

[Mile High Mania]

:rolleyes:

Seriously, was there even a football team in Indy?

[Mark M]

I'll take the bait.

I think he needs a few more years, but then I think he has a shot.

I'll preface this by saying I think the whole Hall of Fame voting process is a complete joke. I could go into a diatribe about that, but I'll spare you.

The bottom line is that when you get down to the final fifteen, the voters love stuff like 2,000 yard seasons, NFL single-game rushing records, etc. And, you get down to the final group, and your city's representative gets up to plead your case - well, throwing out those types if fun facts makes for some good sound bytes. And when you have clowns like Dr. Z holding one of only forty votes, it isn't a difficult group to impress with sound bytes.

BUT, as much as they love those sound bytes, they HATE character issues (even though they're instructed not to consider them when they vote). Lewis has that going against them, while TD was always a strong character guy. Throw in that TD had the Super Bowl MVP (and the second Lombardi Trophy), and I think TD is way ahead in the game, if Lewis career ended today.

I can argue with absolutely none of that (especially the part about Dr. Z being a complete and utter tool).

Thank you.

MM
~~:clap:

[OctoberFart]

Elway doesn't throw a fit and refuse to play for Indy, that would be big fat zero for the Invescos and the HOF, and it would prolly stay that way.


Pretty stupid comment here. If no montana no rings in SF, if no Brady Belichek no rings in NE, If Indy took Leaf no rings in Indy since back around the last time the queefs sniffed the bowl. See where that can go.

[Messier]

Pretty stupid comment here. If no montana no rings in SF, if no Brady Belichek no rings in NE, If Indy took Leaf no rings in Indy since back around the last time the queefs sniffed the bowl. See where that can go.

Well no see, those QB's stayed with the team that drafted them, so, see the difference?

[shrek6849]

Pretty stupid comment here. If no montana no rings in SF, if no Brady Belichek no rings in NE, If Indy took Leaf no rings in Indy since back around the last time the queefs sniffed the bowl. See where that can go.

Consider the source.

[cdcox]

The fact is, that west coast offense that Walsh "innovated" was nothing more than a variation of Hank Stram's "offense of the 70s", which in turn was nothing more than a variation of Sid Gillman's short passing game from the 50's.

Walsh ran a lot of the same offense when he was the Bengals OC with Ken Anderson at QB. It came into its own in SF becuase of the players, chief among them Jerry Rice.

[cdcox]

I don't think teams even counted tackles when Lanier was playing.

Sporting News listed Lanier as one of the top 100 players ever to play the game (number 42). This isn't even a topic worth discussing.

[stevieray]

Pretty stupid comment here. If no montana no rings in SF, if no Brady Belichek no rings in NE, If Indy took Leaf no rings in Indy since back around the last time the queefs sniffed the bowl. See where that can go.

It's over your head.


...but that's ok.

[StcChief]

autumnwindbag needs to take his worthless Faider trash talk outta here.

[milkman]

Read Belichick's praise of Walsh, and you'll come away with a different sense of Walsh's irelevance, if that's what you're suggesting.

I'm not trying to diminish Walsh's accomplishments.

He had a brilliant football mind and the vision to recognize how effective the short aspects of Gillman's passing offense could be in the NFL.

But suggesting that he created that passing game is like suggesting that Henry Ford invented the wheel.