I am a GOOD American

[Taco John]

I am your best friend. I am a GOOD American.

I like big cars, big hooters, and big paychecks. I believe that the money I make belongs to me and my family, but I recognize that it is to my benefit if as many people as possible get fed, clothed, and get a good education, so I don’t mind having to pay taxes. I recognize that I live in a society that makes it possible for me to live so nicely, and I’m ok with giving back to that society.

I am in touch with my feelings. I know who I am. I’m not afraid of facing the truth, even when it is ugly. I don’t believe that anyone has ever died because of something that Ozzy Osbourne sang, though I recognize that children are impressionable, so I do my best to be a good role model for those who might look for me to be one. I don’t believe that owning a gun makes you a killer, though I have no problem with gun control. I think licensing handguns is a good idea that would hurt nobody but the lazy, and that if you think that licensing is the first step to confiscation, then you really don’t know what America is all about. Don’t tread on me with your ignorance.

I don’t think that being a minority makes you noble or victimized, but I recognize that this country was built in large part by slaves who paid the way for a lot of the rich families of this country. Like I said before, I’m not afraid of facing the truth, even when it is ugly. I realize that this land was stolen from the Indians who lived on it before us. I think it’s a shame when people marginalize the sacrifices that the American Indians gave up for this great country.

I believe that graduating from college is the best thing you can do for yourself, and I don’t care how you pay for it. I believe that anyone who really wants to graduate from college can… Where there’s a will, there’s a way. Don’t come crying to me because you trapped yourself in a factory job and bought a really cool car before you put a serious investment in yourself. But don’t worry, I pay taxes to help people like you if you did. And I’m more than happy to do so, sitting in my office with a view, and diplomas on the wall.

I believe that my daughter is just as smart as your son. She could probably kick his *** too, if she put her mind to it. And it will be over my dead body that you deny her of the same opportunities that your son should enjoy. This is America, and females are Americans too.

I am happy to see that President Bush is doing his weekly addresses in both English and Spanish. America is the land of the diverse, and if you can’t handle that, then you are in the wrong place. I'm against the weekly presidential radio address being in ebonics though.

I am my own hero. I don’t need to look to anyone but my God, myself, and my family for strength. I like watching television, but I’m not going to make fictional characters my heroes. You can pretend that you’re John Wayne if you want. My little son thinks that he’s a cowboy too. When he gets old enough, he’ll realize that there is no such thing as a cowboy anymore… Just farmers, and God bless them all.

I believe that every vote should count, and I’m not fooled by the results of this last election. I’ll accept it, but I believe the next time we should actually VOTE the president in. It was a tough situation, and I can see both sides. I’m not going to pretend that one side or the other was wrong or right, but I will say that the Supreme Court shouldn’t have acted so visibly biased. The solutions are out there if you bother to look for them in every instance, including this one.

You can be proud of yourself for being a BAD American if that’s what you are. I’ll choose to be proud of being a GOOD American, because that’s what I am.

[Bob Dole]

If you're a good American, why do you choose a handle that's more appropriate for a Latino restroom?

Happy Cinco de Mayo!

[Frazod]

Oh boy. Where should I start with this one.

I don't mind paying reasonable taxes. This, of course, doesn't include my money going to support a bunch of lazy welfare scumbags who do nothing to improve their own lives yet blame me for keeping them down. I started my adult life by being kicked out of the house with no money. No one helped me do anything. I don't feel inclined to funnel my hard earned dollars to a bunch of slackers.

And if you don't think gun control freaks want to ultimately take away all of our guns, then you don't know what liberal control freaks are all about. They'll only be satisfied when criminals and the government have guns.

I was personally appalled that Bush gave his address in a foreign language - it the first thing he's done that has really p!ssed me off. ENGLISH is the spoken language of this country, and if you don't speak it, YOU ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE. If you don't know the language, learn it. If you're too ignorant to learn it, either get the f#ck out or have fun cleaning toilets for the rest of your life, because that's what you deserve. If I were inclined to move to France, I'd learn French. Of course, I'm not a moron. We should stop coddling these jerk-offs right now.

My ancestors fought for, bled for, and built this country FROM DAY ONE. They deserve a bit more respect, IMO, than some ignorant illegal alien who just crawled out of the Rio Grande.

And if you're too f#cking stupid to punch a hole in a ballot card, then your vote should not count. Someone this horridly stupid should not be making decisions for themselves, let alone wielding the power of a vote. And I'm really sick of sore-loserman types whining about it. If you want to talk about true outrage at the polls, I have a formula for you - Democrats + Mafia + Chicago = President John F. Kennedy.

And your views don't make you good - they just make you very dangerous to our way of life.

[LapDog]

sic 'em Fraz!

LapDog
oh wait...

[old_geezer]

Refresh my memory if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but if it wasn't for the Florida Supreme Court throwing out every decision made by a lower court judge, Gore would have never made it to the US Supreme Court to have his laughable case thrown out.
It was the Florida Supreme Court (made up almost entirely of Democrats) that voided every decision made by Florida judges. It took the US Supreme Court to right the partisanship of that non-partisan :rolleyes: group.

[Taco John]

Sounds like a lot of whiny people who America has passed them by.

The 1950's ended in 1960, fellas.

[Frazod]

I'm aware that the 50's ended in the 60's, and it's a damn shame. Pretty much everything that's wrong with this country has its roots in the '60s, from Vietnam to Johnson's Great Welfare State-err... I mean, Great Society. I personally long for the days when drugs and crime weren't rampant, when children were raised with discipline, when people took responsibility for themselves and their actions, when people took pride in their country, when insignificant foreign holidays were treated as such, when the media reported the news instead of twisting it, and when it wasn't a crime against the universe to be an English-speaking white man.

[Michael Michigan]

I think liberals who don't have the creativity to author their own humor piece are dumb enough to believe John Wayne was a television character. John Wayne was an actor.

He played different roles (like cowboys) in movies and on TV.

I believe someone who does not know me, but claims to be my best friend is delusional.

I believe someone whose most crowning achievement is sitting in an office with a view and diplomas on the wall has much to learn.

I believe someone who uses a moniker titled after a lousy fast food chain is more than likely lying about their diplomas.

I believe that someone who has to make a feeble attempt at answering such a humor piece by dubbing themselves in a positive light (I.E. "good American) probably has self-esteem problems.

[Rick Stephens]

Stinko De Taco!

[Clint in Wichita]

I believe that people who were patting each other on the back in the "Bad American" thread need to go back to it.

[Frazod]

Damn, Rick, I thought I was the only one who called it that.

I live in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood. It seems like every friggin car I've seen today is draped with Mexican flags. I guess they're all trying to say "I come from the land of abject poverity, corruption and death squads, and DAMN I'M PROUD OF IT!" Of course, I don't know what they're really saying, since I don't feel it's necessary to learn a foreign language, since I live in THE HEARTLAND OF MY OWN F#CKING COUNTRY.

Were I forced to leave my country for these reasons, I just might embrace the new place, since the old one obviously sucks. I might try to learn the language, blend in with the people already there, and show some respect to their culture and heritage.

Of course, we can't have any of that, can we?

Moving to the suburbs in less than a month. June 1 can't come soon enough.

[Rick Stephens]

Frazod,

Living in Kalifornia the "Illegal Immigrant" state, you don't know if your in the United States or Mexico. There is their gang graffiti everwhere. If they want to spray paint this stuff everywhere why don 't they spray it on their own house. Not on other people's or public property.

I went into a Burger King and ordered a Whopper with no mayo on it. The first one I got had a ton on it, took it back and the second one had it on it also, took it back and got a third one also had mayo on it. Finally told them to get the manager as I was tired of dealing with someone who could understand the English language. If they want to work in a public place they should learn our language.

Here they have no respect for the American flag but expect you to respect the Mexican flag. What a joke.

Life is not so great in The People's Republic of Kalifornia.

[Clint in Wichita]

Then you should move.

If you aren't willing to do, how bad could it be?

[LapDog]

Good idea.

Let's all move from California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas to Oregon, Utah, Nevada, and Colorado. Then all the Mexicans can just take over California, et. al. and annex them into Mexico.

Then, 20 years from now, when they are all over Oregon, Utah, Nevada, and Colorado, we could all move to Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nebraska. And so on.

Why don't we all just move to Canada now and get it over with?

We should find a way to solve the issue now, not just move away from it.

LapDog
Think about it

[kcfanintitanhell]

How about this?

Once this country comes to the inevitable conclusion that the war on drugs is irrevocably lost, let's just employ all those out-of-work DEA agents as border guards along the Rio Grande!

[California Injun]

Moving from the multi-racial SoCal to the uni-racial NoCal, (except for a few Native Americans and the Chinese that helped with the gold mining trade), it will be cold day in hell before "Kalifornia" turns into the Estados de America.

But the we are 800 miles from the border so we have enough time to prepare for a formidible defense...

[Phobia]

Did you win the old KC pennant on EBay?

In response to this thread, I agree with everything Frazod (or Studio B) has said but I'm not quite as passionate on the issue as he.

Just move, Clint? Move where? To Wichita? What does that solve? Just move. Please.

As far as welfare is concerned, I guess I could easily be pulling down a check from the government, too. I have no college whatsoever. I couldn't pay for it upon graduation from high school and even if I could, I probably would have partied out....

I joined the Marine Corps, learned a trade and have made in the past 3 years almost as much money as Toney Richardson made last year. I made myself a contributing member of society and anybody on welfare that is able bodied has the same damn opportunities I had.

[Tomahawk 11]

I have a friend that works for the border patrol in Arizona if anyone wants info or an application.

Fraz, switch to decaf man! I agree to an extent, but $hit!

[California Injun]

Phil,

No I did not. This is the 3rd or 4th time this type of pennant has been offered and the pricing went from $225 - 160 - 155.

I got a bit anxious and topped out at $110 but to no avail.

Just can't see paying over $100 for the thing but with each year the Chiefs miss the play-offs, my desire for it will increase.

It sure would look nice up in my Sports Room though...

[Rick Stephens]

California_Injun,

I see on E bay there is another pennant for the Kansas City Chiefs for Super Bowl 4. Is this the type of pennant that your looking for?

[Frazod]

Just got back from the bar - I'm a touch crocked, but will respond to various posts.

Rick: I here you about the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia and sympathize. I live in the Peoples Republic of Chicano - I mean, Chicago. I would think the only difference between Mexico and my neighborhood is that my neighborhood gets much colder in the winter and has more Mexicans in it. We've got the gang graffiti here, too, along with all the crime and BS that goes with it. This place SUCKS.

Lap Dog, you make a valid point. What to do about it is beyond me, expect perhaps putting a couple of army divisions on the border and kill anything that tries to cross it. That would be good for starters. Perhaps we could get a few more divisions to weed out all the illegals that are here now and ship them right the hell back from whence they came. That would be a good follow-up.

Phil: I started the same way, except I went in the Navy. Started with absolutely nothing and have busted my a$$ to get where I am now. No rich relatives here. If I can do it, so can they. As for the passion, if you'd lived in this sick f#cking hellhole for a decade, you'd be passionate about it, too.

Tomahawk: I won't switch to decaf, but I am switching to the suburbs - 28 days until my escape. White flight - DAMN RIGHT!

And finally, Clint: I'll tell you what, on June 1, my apartment in Chicago will be vacant. Why don't you move in here so you can be with all your liberal bretheren in the land of brutal taxes, high crime and wonderful multi-lingual diversity? I'm sure you'd love it.

Actually, you'd probably run screaming back to Wichita within a week and then get a GOP elephant tattooted on your friggin forehead.

In any event, feel free to KISS MY A$$.

I'm off to bed. Goodnight to most of you.

[tommykat]

I'd say you had one to many Cocktails tonight. Celebrating Cinco De Mayo tonight? LOL Hope you are more civil tomorrow....:D

[Taco John]

Frazod. You are a racist piece of garbage, and are the real source of problems in America. You can stay though, as we need bad role models to teach our kids what not to be. Shooting mexicans? You don't deserve the freedom this great country provides you, nor do you deserve to act as though you are American nobility.

Take your 'me first' attitude and sit on it. Your ancestors immigrated here too you ignorant *******.

[47mack]

Originally posted by Taco John
Frazod. You are a racist piece of garbage, and are the real source of problems in America. You can stay though, as we need bad role models to teach our kids what not to be. Shooting mexicans? You don't deserve the freedom this great country provides you, nor do you deserve to act as though you are American nobility.

Take your 'me first' attitude and sit on it. Your ancestors immigrated here too you ignorant *******.

1. There is NO freedom in this country anymore.

2. Yes, my/our ancestors migrated here too, so why don't I/we receive the benefits that minorities and immigrants receive?

[old_geezer]

Just a short note as I leave for church. To all my friends and brothers of all races and colors. The fact that someone can think of themselves as better than another simply because of the color of their skin or the country they came from just blows my mind. God loves all of you the SAME, regardless of race, color, where you might live.
Are you a Good American? Do you actively seek to make this country a better place to live; or do you spend most of your time moaning and complaining about what it should be like?
This message is not directed to anyone in particular on this BB; just something I felt needed to be said. God bless;
old_geezer (Ron)

[TCB]

The only thing that I might add to what the old geezer just said is that it saddens me that many of you, who think that this country was put here for english speaking caucasians, have children. The message that you send to your children means that there will be one more generation of racists to drag this country down.

Fortunately some of your children will rise above your narrowminded views and hopefully put an end to the lineage of racism that you are attempting to spread.

The arrogance that is required to actually think that this country was put here just to satisfy your own personal view of "America" escapes me.


ken man

[47mack]

TCB

The narrow mind is the one that thinks everything is owed to people. If I think that english should be spoken at a public place in the United States, that does not make me racist. Some of my great friends are black, but I still think that minorities are given special treatment. Does that make me racist? I didn't qualify for the United Negro College Fund because I am white....is that racist? You would probably say no. You also probably think that affirmative action works.

I am proud to be American. It just so happens that I think this country is going downhill at an extreme rate of speed.

[milkman]

In my job I deal, and have dealt with, people of many different cultures. Some that have such a poor grasp of the English language that I can't even begin to understand them. Should I have to learn each of their languages so that I can service their acoounts better?
I don't think so. If they want to live and prosper in our country, they should have to learn the language of our country.
My grandfather was Mexican. He learned to speak English, fluently. He understood that it was his responsibilty to learn the English language in order to communicate effectively, not everyone else's to learn Spanish.

[47mack]

In no way do I think that immigrants need to totally conform. If they want to speak their language at home and in public, that's fine. However, if they plan on doing business here they need to be able to communicate with the spoken language.

I don't see how this makes me a bad person.

[Frazod]

Taco, I really don't give a damn what you think of me. And if you think my views are harsh, well, they are a direct result of living in this cesspool for 10 years and seeing first hand what many of these people are like. I've been robbed, mugged and victimized by them for far too long. I've lived in neighborhoods dominated by hispanic gangs, heard gunshots daily, seen the results of the robberies and murders. Live like that for a while and see if it doesn't darken your outlook on life a bit.

I don't hate all hispanics. If they come here legally, learn the language, become productive members of society and don't jam their culture down my throat 24/7, I have no problem with them. Believe it or not, I have friends of all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. You might be surprised to learn that I have hispanic friends who feel the same way I do. As for the "shooting" part, I don't want to shoot all Mexicans - I want our borders PROTECTED against the endless tide of illegal immigration, from all countries, not just Mexico. And I want the immigrants who are here illegally removed. There was a time when we needed hordes of immigrants, but that time has passed. We've got all the huddled masses that we need.

And yes, my ancestors immigrated here, too, although they called themselves COLONISTS at the time (with the exception of the one who came over with Lafeyette during the revolution). My right to be here was bought and paid for centuries ago. If being offended watching helplessly as the country they built is continually eroded makes me a racist in your eyes, so be it. If my thinking I have more of a right to be here than some scumbag who sneaks over the border inside a gas tank makes me a racist, so be it. If not giving a damn about a bunch of people in a foreign country that have nothing to do with me makes me a racist, so be it. Maybe if these people put their energies into improving their own damned countries, they wouldn't feel inclined to come here and steal mine.

In any event, in 27 days I'm outta here. This city and all its problems will no longer be my problem, and I'll be pretty happy about that.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Frazod,

I understand your point. I grew up in a rural agricultural area here in SW Michigan, and growing up, I used to think exactly like you, told by adults who think exactly like you. However, 'closing the borders' will not, and should not, ever happen, and here's why: the agriculture industry would die almost overnight. I worked the fields here as a child for a while, and it was the worst, hardest summer of my life. Hardly worth the minimum wage it pays. But it's a way of life for many of them. When it's 90+ degrees out in the hot sun, they're out in the fields(often times the entire family, even children, illegally) are out working sun-up to sun down. Do you think the farmers(or the corporations that own the farms) could find enough white people to go out in the fields and do this type of labor for minimum wage? Especially in Texas, where it's set at $3.35/hr(Don't know how Dubya got around the federal minimum wage law)?

Face it: the south, midwest & California need many of these illegal aliens. You, me, & even all the way up to the President know it. It's just another way that the face of America has changed.

[HC_Chief]

Taco John is not a 'good American' - he's a whiny donkey biatch trying to start trouble. If you do not follow his beliefs, if you do not agree with what he professes, you are obviously a neo-nazi racist who wants to clear-cut the world, rape and pillage indigenous peoples, and eat babies.

Typical far-left whacko - you would be best served ignoring the 2-brain celled fool.

:)

[Frazod]

Michael, the funny thing is I DIDN'T used to feel this way. Perhaps no words are sufficient to describe how much I've hated living here for the past decade. I also admit that my attitude is sort of coming to a head now that my salvation is imminent. I wish I didn't feel this way, but its been (literally) beaten into me over the years.

I know we need them for agriculture. I also know that many of them come over, work the season, and then go back. As long as its controlled, I really don't have a problem with it. Of course, if you took all the welfare bums in major urban areas and told them that there would be no more free handouts, and there's work available farming, and take it or leave it, maybe we wouldn't need them.

The one thing I do know is we don't need any more of them where I'm at - no fields near me.

[Mi_chief_fan]

But a good response anyway. As far as the 'welfare bums' I agree-but there's a reason they're welfare bums- they don't want ANY kind of work. Mexicans, as far as i've always seen, are excellent workers. There's a great Mexican resteraunt here called el rodeo, they have them in Chicago too, that has great food & excellent service. My father -in-law is a tractor mechanic for a farm, and he's amazed at the work that the migrants get done.

[philfree]

According to the U.S. Census by the year 2050 Hispanics will make up the majority of the population in the U.S. of A. If my daughter gives me grandchildren I will be very happy but those little rascals better learn to speak Spanish because there is a good chance they will need it. Legal aliens should have to take an English Test beore they can become a citizen. Written and oral! Of course that doesn't do anything for the baby who was just given birth to by a sixteen year old illegal alien. That child is a U.S. Citizen. I have no ill will toward Hispanics but I see some major trouble brewing in the not to distant future. I may be overreacting but I fear that the American Heritage I enjoyed thus far in my lifetime will not be available for my grandchildren.

PhilFree

[Frazod]

Oops... sorry about that. Got you confused with the other Michigan guy.

And I agree, many of them (in fact, most of them) do work hard. Contrary to what Taco Boy may think of me, I don't hate everybody but me. If they work hard and serve a useful purpose, then why not. The ones I have a problem with serve no useful purpose (unless you consider gang crime and squeezing out welfare babies to be useful).

As for the people who don't want to work, if they were given a choice between working and starving, I'm thinking they would likely work.

[47mack]

Originally posted by Mi_chief_fan
But a good response anyway. As far as the 'welfare bums' I agree-but there's a reason they're welfare bums- they don't want ANY kind of work. Mexicans, as far as i've always seen, are excellent workers. There's a great Mexican resteraunt here called el rodeo, they have them in Chicago too, that has great food & excellent service. My father -in-law is a tractor mechanic for a farm, and he's amazed at the work that the migrants get done.

The reason that "welfare bums" don't want to work is because people like Taco support handouts.

[Frazod]

Phil, I totally concur. I'm getting married next month, and I don't even know if I want to have children, mainly because I don't think I'd want to subject them to what the world is becoming.

I think being able to speak English should be a basic, absolute qualification for gaining citizenship (unless the person in question is some brilliant scientist or something similar, in which case that person should be required to learn it quickly).

[LapDog]

Originally posted by Taco John
Take your 'me first' attitude and sit on it.

hehe...

I'm confused. *Who's* stuck in the 50's and 60's?

LapDog

[Rick Stephens]

I believe that people like Taco are what is ruining our country. He wants American citizens to register firearms because of their gang activity. Who commits most drive by shootings? Hispanic gang members. They come to our country after ruining their own and now want to ruin ours. He wants a free ride in our country. Why should I get a license for a handgun because these people don't know the first thing about firearm safety. I served my country in our armed forces and learned all about firearm use and safety. Now these fools think that I should get a license to own a hand gun.

Here in Kalifornia there was a case last week of a woman here illegally who had been using a phony Social Security number for 10 years and went to get a new drivers license and finally got caught. When she was denied a license she claims that she was singled out for being Hispanic. These illegals have no respect for the laws of our country. She had already broken the law when she crossed the border illegally, lied to the DMV to get a previous license, and then stolen some one elses Social Security number.

I have many neighbors who are Hispanic and they are also tired of the illegals who come here and totally disregard the laws, commit crimes and then go back to Mexico. One had a car totaled by an illegal, driving drunk , no insurance and a phoney drivers license. He got out of jail, and went back to Mexico and my neighbors insurance company foots the bill. Then they wonder why people don't welcome them with open arms. Go to Mexico and commit these crimes you get locked up and they throw away the key.

Taco also wants to vote in the next president. These people have no regards for voting laws either. My neighbor is the original owner of his house. He gets a card form the County of Orange telling him where to vote and it is addressed to some Hispanic and he is not Hispanic. Someone had registered as a legal citizen using his address. Here in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia voter fraud is out of control and no matter what the people vote in we have some liberal judge who throws it out. We voted in English as the language to be used and it gets throw out, we voted to cut off welfare to the illegals and some liberal judge says that is unconstitional.

So Taco don't tell us what a good Ameican you are as you probably swam across the Rio Grande to get here or did you sneak through the desert where illegals die in the summer, then complain about your people dieing of the heat.

With the cost of displacing American workers, the cost of giving welfare to needy illegal aliens, and the cost of providing the general services, it is estimated that the annual cost of illegal immigrants is $19 Billion (even after giving credit for their tax contributions).

[Frazod]

Hey Rick, you should move to Naperville with me. Lots of new construction out there.

Between the earthquakes, power outages, liberals and illegal aliens, it seems to me that Kalifornia would NOT be a happy place to live. Plus, I understand they throw you in jail for smoking cigarettes - I wouldn't last an hour.

[Rick Stephens]

Frazod,

These liberals are something else. You can't smoke a Marlboro cigarette in a public place but you can smoke the baloney pony at a bus stop in San Franscisco.

Diane Fineswine, Gay Davis and Barbara Boxer have worried about the guns and cigarettes and can't keep the lights on.

Willie Davis signed a law into effect now where people who want sex change will get it paid for by the City of San Franscisco's medical insurance if you are an employee.

[Frazod]

What a fun day - checking the board during smoke breaks from working on wedding invitations, which must have handwritten addresses and be stuffed perfectly according to the merciless god of my universe, Emily Post. Ms. Post's demanding standards are enforced by her evil envoy on Earth, my future mother-in-law. She'll be a textbook mother-in-law, too. :mad:

Yesterday, traffic safety school to keep a ticket off my driving record. Today, wedding invitations. This weekend has SUCKED. Being back in the office tomorrow is looking pretty good right now. Anyway, enough whining about that.

The mismanagement and twisted ideals of the PRofK are mystifying to the rest of us. Again, I don't know how you stand it. The "Feinswine" thing cracked me up, though. What a bunch of idiots. I'd like to think even the most hardcore Marxist liberal would be more concerned about having electricity than people smoking in restaurants. Of course, logic doesn't apply to the people, so maybe not. I hope Feinswine is one of the government employees sweltering in the heat when the theromstats get cranked up. Of course, she probably won't be - rich, powerful liberals are above the standards imposed on the rest of us.

[Taco John]

Frazod, when your solution to border control is to shoot mexicans, I'm going to instantly jump to the conclusion that you are a racist. Forgive me, but being half mexican, I've seen both sides of the story my whole life. My grandparents immigrated from mexico in the lat 30's. Why? Because America is the land of opportunity, and they wanted to be a part of it.

So what has changed today? Nothing. Why are Mexicans sneaking over the border. Because of opportunity. Many Mexicans that come here are just here for the money. Working in feilds during the summer gurantees a plush life back in Mexico the rest of the year. Much like when people spend their summers on Alaskan fishing boats for three months in Alaska, and then chill out for the rest of the year.

If you take away the opportunity to make money, then you'll get rid of illegal immagrants. But then again, it's not that easy is it? Because America has got an insatiable appetite for drugs, and there is another opportunity for immigrants of all kinds. And who controls the drug trade? Not the Government, because they've made it illegal. Instead, foriegn drug cartels control the drug trade (along with a handful of domestic ones, but it is much safer to sell drugs in the US if you live outside of it... Instead, you give people looking for opportunities to make vast amounts of money the risk).

Mexicans aren't the problem. Opportunity is. Don't tell me that you want to fix America by getting rid of the Mexicans, because you are not addressing the real problem, which is opportunity.

Of course, you could go on a Hitleresqe spree, and round up all of the mexicans, and the indians and the chinese, and put them in gas chambers for the benefit of the master race. But once you are finished, you won't have solved any problems. Americans will still be addicted to drugs, and someone will take the opportunity to make tons of money by feeding their addictions. Fields will still need to be harvested, and you'll have to find someone to do this thankless, backbreaking labor at a price Joe Farmer can afford to pay them at.

If you want to solve the problem, address it at it's source, not at its symptom.

[Phobia]

Nice post Taco John.

FWIW, I think Frazod was speaking pretty much tongue-in-cheeck when he said "shoot 'em at the border". I've "known" him for years and he's not generally this frustrated. I don't pretend to speak for him but I do empathize with his plight.

[sd4chiefs]

frazod and Rick

I believe that Governor Wilson sighed the bill that degregulated the power company's so that they now are able to pull off this power shortage scam.

Unemployment, welfare, and crime are at thier lowest level in years. I know you are upset that you can't get a job picking lettuce but you don't have to go though life hating everyone.

It is also nice to be able to go to a bar or restaurant without having to breath in cigarette smoke. You should be able to go more than 60 minutes without having to put a cancer stick in your mouth.

The last time I checked a lot more people die in tornadoes than eathquakes. Unless you live in India.

You can now add me to your hate list.

[Frazod]

Thanks for the defense, Phil. No, I'm not a Nazi.

Taco John, just because someone wants something, doesn't mean they are entitled to it. No illegal alien is entitled to sneak into this country and become a criminal or a welfare bum. They should be stopped at the border, or tracked down and sent back. Being an American is the birthright of Americans, not Mexicans. If it makes you feel better, though, I would only advocate shooting them as a last resort.

As I've said, I have no problem (or at least not as much of one) with LEGAL immigration of productive, English-speaking people. The people who come here to work the fields (and yes, I know it's hard work, I was raised on a farm) and go back are okay, as long as it's monitored. Wholesale mass migrations of illegals should be STOPPED. PERIOD. The days of Ellis Island are over.

Why can't Mexicans solve their own problems without burdening us? If the place is so overpopulated, why not try implementing some birth control? Why can't they weed out the corruption in their own government and make the place a better one to live in? I don't know why, and frankly I don't give a sh!t. Its not my problem, nor should it be the problem of the United States. The problems of the world are not in my department. If this makes me a selfish bastard, well, I'm cool with that. It not like I want anything from them, except perhaps to stop sucking up my tax dollars, robbing me and waiving their national rag in my face.

[Taco John]

In other words, you have nothing to offer but hate. Your problem is with the people, not with the problems. You're concerned about numero uno, and everyone else can go to hell. Am I getting warm?

BTW... The days of ellis island never ended, whether you like it or not. The statue of liberty still stands as a symbol to the huddled masses all over the world. You and your fascist attitude can't take that away, no matter how hard you try.

[Frazod]

sd: I actually have a pretty good job. No lettuce picking here. Of course, since I don't like lettuce, I really don't care who picks it or if its picked at all..

And I think it's nice to be able to go to a bar or restaurant without having some communist tell me I can't smoke. It's still a free country (in most places), contrary to the wishes of you and people like you.

And when your entire neighborhood slides into a fault when the big one hits, then you can talk to be about tornadoes. I'm thinking it would be alot easier to crawl out the basement than a fault.

And no, I won't add you to my hate list. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't have a hate list. I will add you to the list of liberal idiots, though. Does that work for you?

[Frazod]

Taco: The days of Ellis Island DID end. It's a museum now. I guess you must not get to New York very often.

And I didn't offer hate, just an opinion. You guys should stop taking my signature line so literally. I want to take care of me and mine, and the problems of strangers aren't my business. Do you take your paycheck and dole it out people on the street? I didn't think so.

And of course, you completely ignored everything I said about Mexico. Again, I ask, why can't these people solve their own problems without burdening us?

[Michael Michigan]

Wow--Those diplomas on your wall in your office with the drive through window view--- did you purchase them online?

Opportunity is not a problem.

We set the USA up that way so that even the poor could achieve through hard work. Legal hard work. With emphasis on the word legal.

You then make an incredible leap from immigrants working in the fields to the drug trade.

And--Alaska--it's a state in the United States. Mexico, it's a whole other country.

Your arguments are flimsy, weak, rambling and poorly worded. If your previous posts are accurate about your education, the fact that a diploma was granted is a problem.

Perhaps it’s time for you to go back for yet another degree. Try a different institute of higher learning. The sheepskin(s) that you are so proud of are no better than the wallpaper to which they are nailed.

Feel like I'm teaching ChiefNLA again.

[Frazod]

According to Taco, Mexico is not a whole other country, but apparently the 51st state (I guess I'll have to get a new flag). It seems that everyone born there has an absolute right to come to the other 50 states and collect welfare. And since we're white, and therefore rich, we shouldn't have a problem with it, because gee, they've had a rough time of it, and we're all living in opulent mansions drinking ambrosia from golden goblets.

[soliday]

Frazod,

You're not a nazi, you're just narrow-minded, however, that's the necessary first step toward becoming a nazi. First, let me say there is no such thing as an American job, or a Mexican job, or a Michigan job, or a California job, there are only jobs, and people looking for them, first to eat, then maybe for a little comfort. If all the really good-paying jobs were in Indiana and you lived in Illinois you might move to Indiana to get one of them wouldn't you? Of course. And you wouldn't consider yourself an immigrant worker because you'd still be a citizen of the same country. But if that wasn't the case, and Indiana had a big army and a big fence around it, and your family was hungry and poor, you might do whatever it takes to get one of those Indiana jobs, and you WOULD resent that fence and that army. What if all the "Illinois jobs" disappeared and the "Indiana jobs" became scarce because the companies laid people off and lowered the pay. They'd start calling you names like "Okie" and "wetback" and saying you spoke with an Illinois accent instead of an Indiana accent, just becase there were no jobs in Illinois, but you heard there still might be in Indiana. Or what if you looked over the fence and saw all those Indiana companies paying people $20-an-hour while the same Indiana companies were paying you $1-an-hour and bribing the government to keep you from striking to form a union to raise your wages? And what if you saw Indiana computers and machinery selling in Indiana for $500, but in Illinois they sold them for $1,000---and that raised the debt in Illinois and made it harder for Illinois "to solve its own problems"?


The point is that these "problems" stretch beyond Indiana borders, or US borders, and that you can't solve them by shutting "our jobs" up in a military camp. If you can't fight for others, you'll never be able to fight for yourself.

As for language, I just came back from a vacation in Paris. People there spoke 2, 3, and more languages. And they got along better, their kids were brighter and friendlier for it. They knew more about the world than the average American. And the neighborhoods were more integrated (except the rich neighborhoods), had less crime, were cleaner, had better schools (from what I could see), and were friendlier to one-language Americans. Signs and maps and menus and conversation were in 2, 3 and 4 languages. You make a language "official" and all you're really doing is building another fence to keep people out.


Soliday

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Michael Michigan
[B]Wow--Those diplomas on your wall in your office with the drive through window view--- did you purchase them online?

THIS is a take? Did I purchase my diplomas online? ****ing idiot. No.

Opportunity is not a problem.

Opportunity doesn't distinguish itself as legal or illegal. It is just there, for the taking.

We set the USA up that way so that even the poor could achieve through hard work. Legal hard work. With emphasis on the word legal.

We? Who is we? You and your buddies? Hey pal, news flash: They sent criminals to America in droves when this country was being founded. Crime has existed in America froun the very beginning. There never was a utopia. Just freedom and opportunity.

You then make an incredible leap from immigrants working in the fields to the drug trade.

Oh did I? Educate yourslef son:
http://www.methvalley.com/chapter_5.html

And--Alaska--it's a state in the United States. Mexico, it's a whole other country..

No ****? It was an EXAMPLE. If you would have paid attention in school, your teacher probably used a lot of EXAMPLES... Go to dictionary.com to look up the meaning of the word "example" if you need to.

Your arguments are flimsy, weak, rambling and poorly worded. If your previous posts are accurate about your education, the fact that a diploma was granted is a problem.

And yet I have a diploma, and a nice fat paycheck coming in. My arguments stand tall and tough. Just saying that I have bad arguments doesn't make it true. Try arguing the bad arguments at the source, and prove that they are bad, rather than just stroking your ego without making any valid points.

Perhaps it’s time for you to go back for yet another degree. Try a different institute of higher learning. The sheepskin(s) that you are so proud of are no better than the wallpaper to which they are nailed.

You are right. It is about time for me to go back to school. Next stop Masters degree, on my way to being a PHD, where I'll probably end up educating your children well into my retirement.

If you are going to school me, you might try making ONE, even ONE point throughout your diatribe. All I ask for is ONE point. Not just a bunch of personal attacks that amount to zilch.

[KCWolfman]

John - "Of course, you could go on a Hitleresqe spree, and round up all of the mexicans, and the indians and the chinese, and put them in gas chambers for the benefit of the master race."

Or even better, we could simply eliminate all benefits to illegal aliens and start charging their respective countries a carrying fee to issue them home. Like the nasty Republicans tried to do with Pete WIlson in California, and the saviour favored ACLU fought tooth and nail - although it was what the people wanted.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by frazod
According to Taco, Mexico is not a whole other country, but apparently the 51st state (I guess I'll have to get a new flag). It seems that everyone born there has an absolute right to come to the other 50 states and collect welfare. And since we're white, and therefore rich, we shouldn't have a problem with it, because gee, they've had a rough time of it, and we're all living in opulent mansions drinking ambrosia from golden goblets.

Actually, Mexico is just another country in this small world in which we all live in. And their problems become our problems because they are so close to us. Just like if Canada's economy went for broke, it would be a big problem for us. The US does not exist in a vaccuum.

And if paying welfare is such a problem for you, why don't you just stop paying it. Make a stand. I guarantee you that good ole' American boys in blue will be at your doorstep, and not the Mexican Nationals.

If you don't like the US, you are free to move.

[sd4chiefs]

frazod

You have evey right to smoke your brains out if you want but not when it affects the health of other people. Why do you have to smoke around other people? I have an old frend that used to say the same things that you are saying now. She is now lying in a hospital dying of cancer. You don't smoke because you want to. You smoke because you are hooked on it. When its too late and you get cancer I want you to remember this post.

[Frazod]

Hey, Taco, I'm happy to see you have a big fat check rolling in. So, since you have lots of money, why don't you buy me a new Corvette? I've always really, really wanted one, and according to your logic, I am therefore absolutely entitled to have it. I'm a total stranger, so you should care about me and give me what I want, not matter what the cost to you. You said earlier that you were my best friend. Well, best friend, I'll be expecting that Vette tomorrow morning.

By the way, I'M STILL WAITING for an answer to my question - why can't Mexico take care of itself? Someone with a big, fat paycheck and a wall full of degrees should be able to answer a simple f#cking question.

[KCWolfman]

John - "And if paying welfare is such a problem for you, why don't you just stop paying it. Make a stand."

Funny you should say that after my last post.

We tried to do that in California, the majority demanded it.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by frazod
Hey, Taco, I'm happy to see you have a big fat check rolling in. So, since you have lots of money, why don't you buy me a new Corvette? I've always really, really wanted one, and according to your logic, I am therefore absolutely entitled to have it. I'm a total stranger, so you should care about me and give me what I want, not matter what the cost to you. You said earlier that you were my best friend. Well, best friend, I'll be expecting that Vette tomorrow morning.

By the way, I'M STILL WAITING for an answer to my question - why can't Mexico take care of itself? Someone with a big, fat paycheck and a wall full of degrees should be able to answer a simple f#cking question.


I posted the answer... So did others. You just aren't willing to face the truth.

[Frazod]

SD: Yes, I know smoking's bad for me. I'd like to quit, but on my own terms, not because the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia (damn I like that - hat's off to Rick) tells me to.

And Taco: I like my country. I don't, however, like what idiots like you are doing to it.

And you're free to move, too. Right the f#ck back to Mexico.

Still waiting for an answer and/or my new car.

[soliday]

Actually frazod,

You should ask why America can't take care of itself. Why does it need immigrants, legal and "illegal" to take care of its dirty, unhealthy, risky jobs. Why are its standards of literacy and education among the lowest for industrial nations? Why is its health care system among the worst for industrialized nations? Why is the murder rate the highest, the prison population the largest, the infant mortality rate among the highest, the rates of cancer, AIDS, tuberculosis, and Alzheimer's among the highest, and the percentage of bi-lingual speakers among the lowest within industrialized nations?

At least Mexico has an excuse---when you start poor it's hard to break out of that poverty, especially when you get charged more for everything you buy, and paid less for everything you sell.


Soliday


Oh, and it's a fact reported by the government---immigrants. both legal and "illegal" pay more in taxes than they receive back in benefits.

[Taco John]

I don't understand where you are going with this new car take... It doesn't add up to anything. It's one thing for a mother to ask the government for money to feed her kids. It's another thing for a fascist ******* who thinks that America exists in a vaccum to ask for a new car.

So I ask you, what is your point?

[Rick Stephens]

sd4Chiefs


As a citizen of this country I am tired of people like you who think that we have an open border. You bring your trash to this country by spray painting graffitti everywhere, commiting crimes and expecting a free handout at every corner. If you want to come here legally, learn the language and obey the laws that is one thing. But don't come to my country illegally and expected to be welcomed with open arms.

Where in the Constitution of the United States does it say that as a citizen of this country that we must support the world with our tax dollars?

As for the lettuce, I don't eat the stuff so can rot in the fields for all I care.

It is liberals like you who want to take my rights away from me and shove you views down my throat, which I do not appreciate.

[KCWolfman]

John - Where do you get your ideas? Why is <B>MY</b> government responsible for a woman and her child from another country here illegally? I don't remember anything in the Constitution that covers this. Frankly, we have enough LEGAL human beings in our country without having to take care of a bunch of pandering aliens.

[Frazod]

So that's your answer? What answer? I asked why Mexico can't fix its own problems. Are you saying they fix them by invading my country? Gee, that's nice.

So I guess if we were neighbors, and you were broke, had nothing to eat, and your roof was caving in, rather than deal with your own problems, get your own food and fix your own roof, you'd just show up at my doorstep and say "Howdy, neighbor, give me your house and your food, and to hell with you, because it's the right thing to do!"

I'd kind of feel like your problems were your business. I guess that's not a very liberal attitude.

So why don't you drop all the bullsh!t and ANSWER MY QUESTION: WHY CAN'T MEXICO SOLVE ITS OWN PROBLEMS? Are they too ignorant, or irresponsible, or just too lazy? What is the answer?

[KCWolfman]

Soliday, I have never seen a report to that effect. Can you provide a link?

I find it hard to believe that someone receiving welfare and food stamps pays taxes at any level except when purchasing products on a free market.

[NaptownChief]

Originally posted by soliday
. Why are its standards of literacy and education among the lowest for industrial nations?



Oh, and it's a fact reported by the government---immigrants. both legal and "illegal" pay more in taxes than they receive back in benefits.


Let me help you on this...The education averages are brought down by certain segments of our society that make no effort for self improvement, instead they prefer to blame everyone else but themselves for their failures....For those who take advantage of our education system excel at the highest levels in the world. Those who choose to take advantage of the opportunity and education in the United States make us the worlds economic leader...

As for your "government fact", the tax figure that you are using includes legal Asian immigrants which are generally educated high producers in our country...You remove them from the equation and the numbers are tilted right back to the fact that illegal Mexican immigrants cost the US tax payers billions of $$$$'s.

[Frazod]

TACO WROTE:

"I don't understand where you are going with this new car take... It doesn't add up to anything. It's one thing for a mother to ask the government for money to feed her kids. It's another thing for a fascist ******* who thinks that America exists in a vaccum to ask for a new car.

So I ask you, what is your point?"

Taco: What's to understand? I'M USING YOUR LOGIC. I'm not entitled to a new Corvette, because I didn't earn it, but SO WHAT. I want one, so give it to me. You've got money, so spend your friggin money on me and buy me my damn car, no matter what the personal cost to you. I'm entitled! It's my right!

This is, in essence, exactly what you propose the rest of us do by allowing these hordes of illegals to invade our country.

[Frazod]

SOLLIDAY WROTE:

"You should ask why America can't take care of itself. Why does it need immigrants, legal and "illegal" to take care of its dirty, unhealthy, risky jobs. Why are its standards of literacy and education among the lowest for industrial nations? Why is its health care system among the worst for industrialized nations? Why is the murder rate the highest, the prison population the largest, the infant mortality rate among the highest, the rates of cancer, AIDS, tuberculosis, and Alzheimer's among the highest, and the percentage of bi-lingual speakers among the lowest within industrialized nations? "

As for dirty, unhealty, risky jobs, I was in the Service for six years. Find an unheathier job that than.

As for the other crap you point out, which is certainly indicitive of this country going straight to hell, I would answer that perhaps the problem stems from the fact that THIS COUNTRY IS THE WORLD'S F#CKING GARBAGE CAN. If you omit from your equations the people who SHOULDN'T BE HERE, I think your stats would shrink dramatically.

[Taco John]

First of all, where did I say that we should be supporting illegals anywhere? I simply posed that killing mexicans is a bad idea, and no solution at all. And I presented the real problem: too much opportunity. My solution is not to reduce opportunity in America, but the problem should be addressed at it's source, not at it's symptom.

Why do Mexicans come to America? Because the American companies that moved their work across the borders pay like ****. That's one. Add to that the fact that the American companies do whatever it takes to make certain that cheap labor stays cheap by corrupting their government, that's two. Gee, it sounds like America just might be part of the problem.

Now add to that the fact that there are a plethora of opportunities in America that will make you live like a king in Mexico, and you've got yourself a pretty good picture of the problem. If you didn't read my link below explaining how the Meth trade works, you might want to give it a read... Here it is again: http://www.methvalley.com/chapter_5.html

Fix the drug war, and you've fixed a big part of the problem by eliminating opportunity.

Give me solutions, not racist mumbo jumbo.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by KCWolfman
Why is <B>MY</b> government responsible for ...

Being the leaders of the free world is a tough cross to bear. The head is heavy that wears the crown. Along with being leaders comes responsibility. We'll drag you along with us kicking and screaming, but you are not going to stop progress, no matter how hard you try. Progress just happens.

[KCWolfman]

John - You never DIRECTLY stated that we should be supporting illegal aliens, but you did allude to the idea that we are forced to with the sarcastic comment:

"And if paying welfare is such a problem for you, why don't you just stop paying it"

Alluding to the idea that the illegals are here and we must pay for them.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by KCWolfman
John - You never DIRECTLY stated that we should be supporting illegal aliens, but you did allude to the idea that we are forced to with the sarcastic comment:

"And if paying welfare is such a problem for you, why don't you just stop paying it"

Alluding to the idea that the illegals are here and we must pay for them.


That's a pretty big jump in logic, but I'll let you take it. You can twist my words to fit your narrow view of the world how you please. But either way, I don't want anybody dying in America from starvation, no matter what border they crossed. We produce so much food here it's sick how much of it goes to waste.

[soliday]

Wolfman,

The US government has overthrown elected governments in Guatemala, Iran, Chile, Nicaragua, and Panama. It has interfered by secret funding and disinformation in elections in Italy, Korea, Haiti, Australia, and many other countries. Where is that in the US Constitution? You run behind the Constitution when you don't like something, but you don't bother asking about these things, do you? The US government has created many of the dictatorships that drive the population to leave, then they slam the door on immigration from those countries. When the Sandinistas in Nicaragua overthrew the dictator Somosa, the US suddenly allowed hundreds of thousands of Nicaraguans into the US; but while the El Salvadoran government was fighting a civil war and operating death squads, including the one that killed US nuns, the US held Salvadoran immigration to less than 1,800 a year. Go check some websites on El Salvador and Nicaragua, I'm not going to do your work.


As for the facts on US rank in crime, education, etc.---go to the United Nations website under UNESCO.

JL80---most of Europe has more open immigration laws, and large immigrant populations. Why haven't "certain elements" ---identify these--- driven down these standards, not just education, in other industrialized countries? As for Asian versus "other" immigrant groups I'll check that.

Soliday


Just a poll question: Who on this board has been outside the US? And where?

[Frazod]

I read the article, Taco. I didn't know that 90% of the meth in this country came from Mexico. Something else for your to be proud of.

Sounds to me like just another reason to vastly strengthen the border guard.

[KCWolfman]

Soliday - If you want to bring up a second subject on errors regarding our nation and foreign policy: I will probably agree with a good portion of it.

However, I am focused on this task at the moment. You state that illegal aliens pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. Please explain (in simple English so we can all follow along) how Consuelo Martinez and her five children (Pedro, Miguel, Maria, Anna, and Raoul) all pay more in taxes than they receive in health, welfare, and food stamp benefits.

[KCWolfman]

John - You don't want anyone starving. I agree, at least you are honest.

My solution is instead of giving them a paycheck every month for doing nothing is give them a meal and send them home.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by frazod
I read the article, Taco. I didn't know that 90% of the meth in this country came from Mexico. Something else for your to be proud of.

Sounds to me like just another reason to vastly strengthen the border guard.

There's no reaching you is there. It's because you are a flat out racist.

You can sit there all day long and talk about attacking the symptoms, but if you ignore the source, you are fighting the wrong battle. The problem doesn't lie with the Mexicans. It lies with the Americans, like it or not.

[alanm]

And you wonder why the US pulled out of UNESCO?

[sd4chiefs]

Rick

FYI - I am a white man born here in the good old USA. I paid more in taxes last year than you will make in the next ten years. I cashed in all of my stock options before the stock market tanked. I was only sticking up for the mexican people because I can pay them a lot less money to clean my house and mow my yard.
I know that we need to do something about the illegal immagrants but you don't have to go nazi on everything. Unless I find myself one day having to mow some illegal immigrants yard.
I am going to go back to just talking about the Chiefs. This is just a big waist of time. I guess talking about the Chiefs is a big waist of time also.

[Frazod]

The illegal aliens come from Mexico. That is the source. The drugs come from Mexico. That is the source.

Therefore, I AM ATTACKING THE SOURCE, you f#cking idiot.

And this racist crap is getting old. I don't want my country overrun by hordes of people from any country who don't belong here. The fact that I want to protect what's mine from those who aren't entitled to it doesn't make me a racist.

And I don't like you not because you're a Mexican - I don't like you because you're hellbent on destroying my country and my way of life. The fact that you're an a$$hole might have something to do with it, too.

[soliday]

Alan,

They were objective studies, and they've been duplicated by several organizations around the world, including the US gov't. It's pretty hard to manipulate things like prison population and infant mortality. But sure, it's from outside the US, so it must be wrong, eh?

Soliday

[Taco John]

Originally posted by frazod
The illegal aliens come from Mexico. That is the source. The drugs come from Mexico. That is the source.
Therefore, I AM ATTACKING THE SOURCE, you f#cking idiot.


WRONG! How can you go through years of American schooling and not know how the mechanics of supply and demand work?

The source of the problem is not the supply. It's the demand. The demand for drugs and the demand for cheap labor are the two chief problems. Address those problems, and you are addressing the source of the problem.

And this racist crap is getting old.

I agree. I wish that you would stop being so racist.

I don't want my country overrun by hordes of people from any country who don't belong here.

Tell that to the Native Americans you ignorant a55hole.


I don't like you because you're a Mexican

Racist jerk. By the way, I'm an American.

I don't like you because you're hellbent on destroying my country and my way of life.

I am hellbent on making it tough for rascist to exist in this great land. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. It is going to get harder and harder for people like you to exist in America without having to give up some core beliefs like your race is the master race, and that mexicans are the source of all of America's problems.

[Frazod]

Ah, how nice. Another rich liberal bragging about how big his paycheck is. So let me get this straight - you think something should be done about illegal immigration UNLESS it means the people who clean your house would be deported, because... what? Because you're too cheap to hire good help or too lazy to clean up after yourself?

Okay, rich liberal. Since Taco's buying my car, why don't you pay off my new house? Again, I'm not entitled to it, but what the hell - I want it, so give it to me. That's the liberal way, isn't it? And I promise with the money I save from not having a mortgage payment I'll hire a couple of non-English speaking illegal immigrants to clean my toilets and wash my dishes. That should make you very happy.

[California Injun]

frazod,

You may need to make an ammendment to your signature line to include "Mexicans".

What happens if the Broncos or Rams have Mexicans on their rosters?

[Frazod]

CLARIFICATION: I left the word "NOT" out of a sentence. It should have read "I don't like you NOT because you're a Mexican, but because you're hellbent on..." This was a typo. I did not mean it as written and apologize for the implication I made, which is obviously very offensive. I DID NOT IT THE WAY IT WAS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN, and have corrected my post.

For that (and that alone), I apologize.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by frazod
Now you've taken to quoting me out of context. You know damn well what I meant when I said that, you pr!ck. If you're so convinced I'm a racist, trying explaining it to the many friends I have who just happen to be black, hispanic, jewish or gay. They'll tell you to go f#ck yourself. And I don't like giving a laundry list of ethnic groups like that - these people aren't my "black" friends, or "gay" friends - they're just my friends. Its people like you that insist on labelling everything.


I don't know what you are talking about. Going back and re-reading it, I can see where you might think I took you out of context... But your other posts snips it all back into the context that you hate Mexicans, so I don't know what to think. Either way, you still ignored most of the points I made, including the points about the American Indians who sacrificed their way of life so racist pricks like you can enjoy hating them for it.

[soliday]

JL80,

Could you provide some source for your statement on the differentiation between Asian and other legal and "illegal" immigrants, and their cost to social services? The Urban Institute web site makes this point:

The Urban Institute has concluded that "immigrants actually generate significantly more in taxes
paid than they cost in services." This is because undocumented workers, despite their ineligibility for
most federal benefits, frequently have Social Security and income taxes withheld from their paychecks. In
fact, immigrants pay substantially more in taxes every year than they receive in welfare benefits.

As a result, one commentator has pointed out, "a senior citizen on Social Security who lives in rural
Kentucky is indirectly being subsidized by an immigrant who washes dishes in a chic restaurant in Santa
Monica." Another commentator recently proposed that the best solution to the Social Security crisis
caused by the aging of the baby boomers is to encourage immigration in order to create "instant adults"
who will begin working immediately and paying into the Social Security system.



Soliday

[NaptownChief]

Taco J,

I'm not even going to tell you which side of this opinion that I agree with:

"The source of the problem is not the supply. It's the demand."

But regardless of whether or not that is accurate, it could not be more contradictory with you opinion about gun control...If supply is not the problem then you original comments about gun supply restriction goes completely against your above listed comment.

[Taco John]

How so?

[Frazod]

Taco: As I said before, I made a typo. When I saw your post quoting me, I thought you had altered my quote, and was annoyed by that. Then I went back and saw that I had made the mistake myself, which I corrected. I even dumped the later post you quoted because it no longer seemed necessary to put it up.

I don't hate people based on their ethnic groups. I dislike individuals for the individual things that they do. I don't even hate you - I just dislike you, NOT because you are a Mexican, or whatever else you may be, but because you are, IMO, a jerk-off. You are far too insignificant in my life to warrant any strong emotions.

Since either the BB or my server is screwed up (its taken me 20 minutes to amend a couple of posts and make a new one) I think I'll give this a rest for a while. But I can conclude that: (1) Taco thinks I'm a racist, hatefilled Nazi goon; (2) I think Taco is nasty little Communist pr!ck; (3) Taco thinks everyone in every country on Earth is entitled to come to this country and take everything they want; (4) I think they aren't; and (5) we both really dislike each other, and will never see eye-to-eye on anything, from life to football.

As for the Indians, I never mentioned them, but I do, of course, recognize that we thoroughly conquered them and took there land (Mexico was once Indian land, too, BTW). We did the same thing to them that they had been doing to each other, we just did it better. My ancestors did bad things, all too frequently, and I never said they didn't. Of course, I'm not giving my house back to the Indians. Neither are you. Now, the US also took the Southwest from Mexico - as far as I'm concerned, you can have it back. Seems like you've pretty much got it back already. I'd kind of like to hang on to the rest of it, though.

Anyway, I'm off to the store - need groceries. Perhaps I'll make burritos tonight. Be back later.

[Rick Stephens]

Soliday,

Go to this website and read it and tell me that illegals pay in more than they receive, http://www.fairus.org/

[NaptownChief]

Originally posted by Taco John
How so?

In your original post you said the following:


"though I have no problem with gun control"


Gun control is nothing more than restricting the supply....

[Cannibal]

Originally posted by frazod
You are far too insignificant in my life to warrant any strong emotions.

I've read the entire post and found this quote amusing because Frazod's had "strong emotions" about Taco John thoughout this post.

[Oxford]

So am I......... I am white, gainfully employed, 2 years college. I could care less what a skin color is, hair color is, where they were born, who there parents were, what they drive etc etc.
I do care when people start throwing around the "racist" term, demanding we roll back 200 years of history or give reparations to someone because someone of their skin color was beaten by someone of my skin color 150 years ago. It is greed all in the name of racial parity. Services that I contract for are on the basis of price/quality. What someone's heritage or immigration status is none of my business, because it would be racist to ask and therefore base a decision on that fact. I believe that there is inequality/race hatred throughout the world and it will only be solved if one person at a time refuses to play the game (no benefits because of race/no hatred because of it either).
You have to ask, "Why are people interested in bringing this up?", "What is their motivation?", "What do they have to gain?". Nine times out of ten it's power or money. Some people have to work much harder than others to succeed, it just means that they will cherish it more when it arrives.

That's the way it is -- goodnight and have a pleasant tomorrrow.

[Frazod]

Cannibal - none of you have ever seen STRONG emotions from me.... :D

[sd4chiefs]

frazod

I would be glad to hire you to clean my toilets but I don't want anyone who smokes in my house.

[Frazod]

I should be p!ssed about that crack, but it's pretty funny. Score two for SD.

I doubt if you could afford what I'd charge, anyway. And I'd probably blow smoke in your face on top of it.

Still waiting on the house thing. I'm closing on a townhouse in two weeks, but if you want to get me something bigger, I won't complain.

[sd4chiefs]

frazod and Rick

I am sorry if I upset you today. I have made everything up. I am not rich. I don't have a house. I don't have a frend dieing of cancer. I was just pulling your chain. I will never do this again.
Just remember, you should always take things said on this board with a grain of salt.

[Frazod]

That's okay. I'll take you off my liberal idiot list and add you to my lying weasel list. :D

[California Injun]

Weasels lie?

Sneaky varmits....

[sd4chiefs]

Thanks frazod

Just as long as I am not on your hate list with Dener, the Rams and Elvis.

[Frazod]

Relax, SD, you're not even on my dislike list.

Actually I do have a hate list - two people are on it - my arch-enemy from high school and a former boss. Both richly deserve to be there. Haven't seen either of them for years, but this list is like a roach motel - once you check in, you don't check out.

But it takes alot more than a few obnoxious posts on a BB to make that list. Even the likes of Elway, Rosie O'Donnell and Taco Boy shall be spared the wrath of Frazod's hate list.

[stevieray]

Denise is on at porkrind (grin)park leading a charge against a poster named Studio B, on this very topic...


And Fraz, she thinks its you...Thought I'd let you know.

Nothing against pigskin, looks very similar to this format.

[Frazod]

Stevieray - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Denise is bashing me and I've never even been there. Oh joy.

Please post the link. This I have to see.

[stevieray]

www.pigskinpark.com

Click onto The Pen.

[Phobia]

http://www.pigskinpark.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000041

Studio B seems to be your long lost brother, Fraz. Take it easy on her, I'm the one that initially thought it was you....

[Michael Michigan]

Funny thing TJ--the more you post the easier it is to see that your posts contain some obvious fabrications.

TJ's quote--"And I’m more than happy to do so, sitting in my office with a view, and diplomas on the wall."

TJ's quote--"And yet I have a diploma..."

Well, which is it? A diploma, or several?

TJ's quote--"You are right. It is about time for me to go back to school. Next stop Masters degree, on my way to being a PHD"

Again--what diploma(s) do you have on your wall? What is your degree in?

TJ's quote--"and a nice fat paycheck coming in."

TJ's quote--"where I'll probably end up educating your children well into my retirement. "

So--you are going to give up this fat paycheck, office with a view, and teach? And well into your retirement?

Noble indeed, but before you do, some advice.

Stop beginning your sentences with conjunctions. Your attempt at presenting yourself as an intellectual falls short when you use dictionary.com as a source and you are on your way to "being a PHD." Then "educating my children?" You would either be providing them with an education or teaching them.

TJ‘s quote--"on my way to being a PHD"

It’s actually a Ph.D. That would be a Doctor of philosophy.

PHD is an American slang term that means Player Hater’s Degree. Check that--perhaps that is what you are shooting for.

TJ's quote--"No ****? It was an EXAMPLE. If you would have paid attention in school, your teacher probably used a lot of EXAMPLES... Go to dictionary.com to look up the meaning of the word "example" if you need to."

Learn the difference between an example and an analogy.

Before you can teach you first must learn. If this exchange is any indication you have a fair amount of distance to travel.

[Taco John]

Wow Micheal. Talk about having a lot of time on your hands...

A lot of what I wrote in the original post was rhetorical. Much like the original "joke" of being a Bad American was rhetoric. But I won't fault you for not reading between the lines.

Yes, my goal is to become a PH.D. and give up the big paycheck. I was put on this Earth to teach, as anyone who knows me personally will agree.

As for the rest of your post, woof, woof. You can go on and on about the grammer errors that I might make while typing my responses. It's of no consequence to me. You won't find me wasting my time correcting your errors, because for the most part, it's all communicable... and it would be a waste of my time to do it, much like it was a waste of yours.

[Frazod]

Don't worry, Phil. As you will see, I merely identified myself as me and left it at that. I post HERE. I am curious as to who Studio B is. That particular moniker does not sound familier to me.

Thanks for the info, StevieRay. I appreciate it.

[Taco John]

Another thing, Micheal... It's funny that everybody here seemed to be able to hold their ground in this argument but you. They all brought up points and argued them. How does it feel to be the only one here that was so visibly ***** slapped that we can all see the red marks?

[Frazod]

Hey Taco, you really should check out that pigskin place. All the resident do-gooder liberals are over there. Perhaps you'd feel more loved.

And for your bashing enjoyment, there's a guy called Studio B who's sick of cinco de mayo. They're all tearing him to shreds - you could hop on the pile with them. Sounds like a hoot.

[California Injun]

I thought P.H.D. was short for...

... Permanent Head Damage.

[Michael Michigan]

TJ-

I don't blame you for not responding. You have been pointed out as a fraud.

I chose not to argue the points of your piece as it was an obvious rip-off with no originality.

It would have been far too easy--I instead chose to point out your serious errors.

Good luck at CC.


Injun-

Perhaps you are indeed correct, but we will have to check with our budding intellectual--:)

Care to chime in TJ?

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Michael Michigan
TJ-

I don't blame you for not responding. You have been pointed out as a fraud.

I chose not to argue the points of your piece as it was an obvious rip-off with no originality.

It would have been far too easy--I instead chose to point out your serious errors.



Nice save face attempt slappee. I'll let you keep that last shred of dignity.

[Michael Michigan]

TJ-

Nice try---exposed as a fraud, no diploma, no office, no kids, and no wife.

Just a fast food moniker on a BB trying to boost an obvious small ego.

Enjoy the view at the drive through window tomorrow--

Please come again sir.

[Frazod]

I've just reread this thread as well as the one on the other board. There are those of you who seem to think that I'm now the standard-bearer for racial hatred in the KC BB community (frazod said this, frazod said that, my remarks weren't as bad as frazod's, etc.). The only thing I said that could be construed as racist was an admitted typo, which I corrected. I have rehashed this a couple of times and won't go into it again.

Let me recap my thoughts and opinions: 1. I believe people who live in this country should speak English. 2. I don't believe I should have to speak a foreign language to communicate with other people in the heartland of my own country. 3. I've grown weary of Mexicans in my neighborhood waiving the flag of the country they fled in my face while showing nothing but contempt for the country that they fled to. 4. I've also grown weary of the crimes that these people have perpetrated against me and others in my community. 5. I believe that illegal immigrants should NOT be allowed access to this country, and that they should be stopped from entering, by force if necessary, and should be removed from this country, again, by force if necessary. This applies to illegal aliens from all countries, not just Mexico. 6. I don't believe that every human being on Earth the right to come to America and be a burden to our society and government just because their own countries suck. I think they instead improve the conditions in their own countries and live mine alone. 7. I believe people should take responsibility for their own actions and lives, and not expect to live on the charity and/or tax dollars of others.

I never said I hated Mexicans or people of any other race or country. Just because I don't want them here, doesn't mean I hate them. I'm pretty much indifferent to them until they become a burden or threat to my safety of way of life. Their lives and problems are not my concern, and I believe they should never be my concern. I do not embrace the international community - I'm an American, and they're not. I won't go to their countries and expect a handout, and they shouldn't expect one from mine. These views admittedly make me an isolationist, and will never win me a humanitarian award, but conversely they do not make me Hitler.

Anyway, that's where I stand. Love me, hate me, think I'm a visionary, a pr!ck, or just an overraught windbag. But just because Taco John says I'm a hate-mongering racist, that simply doesn't make it so.

That's all. Goodnight.

[California Injun]

Well that post cleared everything up....

[Rick Stephens]

Frazod well stated, I as well am all for people who come here and want to blend in as American's as long as they come here legally. I have no problems with people who want to come here and contribute to our society but don't come here illegally and expect the American taxpayer to give you a free ride.

Some of my best friends are a Russian family who came to this country with $250.00. They worked hard, long days, 7 days a week. They speak very good English and now have their own business. They couldn't wait to become citizens of this country and live like Americans. If you ask them where they are from, they will tell you we are American's by way of Russia. This coming from someone who spent many years in a Soviet prison for trying to flee a Communist Dictatorship and who's best friend was killed by the border guards. I have seen this man get on his hands and knees, kiss the ground and tell me, "Man I love this country." They never once ask for any free handouts, they would sell Russian items to make money. They now have a nice home which cost about $450,000.00.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Michael Michigan
TJ-

Nice try---exposed as a fraud, no diploma, no office, no kids, and no wife.


Wrong again.

[LapDog]

Taco John-

I've mostly been staying on the sidelines, and I hate to throw fuel on this dying fire, but there are a couple of things that are bothering me and I feel compelled to say them. Just so you know where I stand, I mostly don't agree with your perspective. AT THE SAME TIME, I recognize you as somebody who contributes to our society. Likewise, I recognize, and to some extent, identify with Frazod's perspective. I haven't lived it on a day-to-day basis, so I don't feel as strongly about it, but I definitely understand his point of view.

(Some of my commentary is in parentheses. I would usually refrain from these sorts of comments, but I assume that if you can dish it, you can take it.)

1) The primary thing that bothers me is you keep calling Fraz a racist. Fraz would be every bit as frustrated if it was Germany, Russia, or even Sweden we were dealing with. His issue is NOT with the Mexican race (if there is such a thing). If a bunch of people named Sven and Olga were crossing the border, working in our fast food restaurants, speaking only Swedish, putting 'art' on our buildings, forming gangs, stealing, killing, selling drugs, and overburdening our welfare system, he would be railing against the situation just as passionately as he has been on this thread. Many Americans would be saying, "Those damned Swedes are taking over our country. We need to protect the border and deport them.". The difference would be that you wouldn't have the ability to call Fraz or anybody else a racist. You'd have to acknowledge the merits of the argument instead. It sounds to me like you are stereotyping Fraz and others as <i>ignorant Caucasian Americans who've never been outside the country and speak only English</i>. Who's the racist? Hypocrite. ("You anti-Caucasian, racist jerk.")

2) By so frequently referring to Fraz as a racist, you sound just like Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, and the NAACP. Do you really want to resort to their unethical tactics simply because it's effective? On the one hand, you pretend as if you are on the high road; as if you are defending your position reasonably and rationally. At the same time, you falsely accuse Fraz of racism, to put his character on lower moral ground, as if you expect him to maintain your high standards in the discussion. This call for a higher standard is in spite of the fact you yourself are on shaky ground and Frazod isn't. Why do you feel the need to resort to demagoguery? Apparently your arguments are weak, or you are too stupid to legitimately defend them. Either way, you are again a hypocrite. ("You ignorant, communist piece of garbage.")

3) Some time ago, you and several posters were discussing the <i>when in America, speak as Americans do</i> attitude. Your stance seemed to be that we midwestern white Americans are intolerant morons who are certainly unwilling and probably unable to learn a second language. At the same time, you were defending the Mexican nationals who are illegally crossing our border. You were defending non-English speaking criminals; criminals that speak only Spanish. Why do you expect Americans in the Midwest, who generally have no use for a second language, to learn Spanish? Why don't you, in a similar fashion, expect the Mexican criminals crossing our border to learn English? They certainly have more need of English than we do of Spanish. You can't have it both ways. I'm guessing that by now you already realize what I'm going to say. At least you're a smart hypocrite. ("You hate-filled, racist prick!")

4) You're really having a hard time with this hypocrisy thing. I'd stop here, but I'm really beginning to believe that you <b>deserve</b> to be raked over the coals. (To use your colloquialism, "*****-slapped"). I had no problems with your original post. I didn't entirely agree with it, but it had some valid points and you have the right to state your opinion. However, your subsequent posting has revealed who you really are.

Here's a simple one. Early on you stated, "I'm going to instantly jump to the conclusion that you are a racist". Then, you responded to another poster with, "You can twist my words to fit your narrow view". Let's see, twisting dozens of statements to support belief that Fraz is a racist, instantly jumping to racist conclusion based on a negative stereotype of white Caucasians... that sounds narrow-minded to me. Maybe you're not such a smart hypocrite, after all. But you're definitely a hypocrite. ("You could always follow Hitler's lead and just put all us narrow-minded rednecks in the gas chambers. Even though you're only half Mexican, you'd probably be safe by trying to pass yourself off as a full-blooded member of your master race.")

5) A recurring theme of hate runs throughout your commentary. Here's a list of quotes from your various posts.

First, you referred to several posters as:

"whiny people America has passed by"


Not too bad. But later, in reference to Michael Michigan, you said:

"If you would have paid attention in school"
"****ing idiot. No"


The school comment doesn't really imply hate, but combine it with the rest, and it is obviously stated with a hateful tone. Finally, you called Frazod all <i>sorts</i> of things:
"You are a racist piece of garbage"
"Your ancestors immigrated here too you ignorant *******."
"I'm going to instantly jump to the conclusion that you are a racist"
"you could go on a Hitleresqe spree"
"put them in gas chambers for the benefit of the master race"
"you have nothing to offer but hate"
"You and your fascist attitude"
"for a fascist ******* who thinks that America exists in a vaccum" (sic)
"Give me solutions, not racist mumbo jumbo."
"It's because you are a flat out racist"
"I wish that you would stop being so racist"
"Tell that to the Native Americans you ignorant a55hole"
"Racist jerk. By the way, I'm an American."
"I am hellbent on making it tough for rascist to exist" (sic)
"It is going to get harder and harder for people like you to exist" (indirect reference to racists)
"core beliefs like your race is the master race"
"But your other posts snips it all back into the context that you hate Mexicans"
"so racist pricks like you can enjoy hating them for it."

Referring to your comments above, I count:
8 accusations of racism (the 'people like you' comment goes here)
3 accusations of hate
3 comparisons to Hitler
3 'a55hole' vulgarites
2 accusations of fascism
2 'ignorant' labels
1 'garbage'
1 'whiny'
1 'idiot'
1 '****ing' vulgarity
1 'jerk'
1 'prick' vulgarity

That's a total of about seventeen instances of name-calling, several indirect accusations of being a genocidal murderer, and five or six derogatory descriptive adjectives. Your posts are filled with such vile hatred and name calling, ("motivated by racism"), that I don't think I can take your accusations of hatred and racism seriously. Surely you know that people who see nothing but racism, hatred, and violence are usually filled with nothing but hatred, fear, and violence. Can you honestly expect to maintain that sort of behavior and still expect anyone to take you seriously? Especially in regards to your comments toward Frazod? Can't you see your own hate? Look in the mirror. Why is it that hypocrites never look in the mirror? ("You ****ing hate-mongering racist a55hole.")

6) I'm sure by now you realize that you're only standing on three legs, but I have to make one last point for posterity's sake. You've really made it a habit to attack people in this thread. In particular, unfounded accusations of racism and childish name-calling seem to run rampant in your thought processes. If you take the time to count, you will find that you've made twenty posts on this thread. Ten of those posts contain personal attacks. That's half of your posts, Taco. Again, you seem to be reverting to unethical tactics, just to help you win the day. Are you so afraid of the weaknesses in your argument that you aren't willing to play on a level field?

To quote you yet again, "All I ask for is ONE point. Not just a bunch of personal attacks that amount to zilch." Really!? Are you serious!?! I can't believe any ("****ing ignorant idiot") would say something like that when they have such an obvious tendency to resort to name-calling and demagoguery! Such hideous hypocrisy! Life must be hard for you, walking with so much shame. Know thyself, hypocrite!

If it isn't clear to you by now, hypocrite, let me summarize. You've been discredited. You've disgraced yourself. Now why don't you tuck your tail between your legs and go spend some time with some of your ("racist Nazi") friends?

<big>("B*TCH!")</big>

LapDog

[47mack]

LapDog

You have way too much time. Go to sleep sometime today.

[Clint in Wichita]

Why don't you women discuss something other than the old "My Party is Better than Your Party" debate.

None of you are exactly ringing endorsements for your lifestyle.

Maybe I'll become Jewish...I'd rather burn in Hell than spend all eternity in Heaven with some of you "Christians".

[Taco John]

Originally posted by 47mack
LapDog

You have way too much time. Go to sleep sometime today.

No kidding. Frazod's lap dog has way too much time on his hands.

I don't know where to begin with the post, so I won't bother too much. You can think what you want. I don't much care really. Anyone with a moderate to liberal viewpoint is intantly discredited in your eyes, so it's not much use even trying.

Again, Frazod continually looks at the people as the problem, and focused his answers toward the people, particularly Mexicans. His idea that America should be shooting mexicans at the border more than warranted being called a rascist... In fact, it sort of tears down most of your points Lapdog. I noticed you didn't include that in your wrap-up.

There are pockets in America where people still speak their native language. Entire communites in Nebraska speak Czech. You might have a hard time understanding them, because few of them are very accomplished English speakers, though they try. Nobody is complaining about them... Or the quakers.

Just about every Sunday, some white people come to my door trying to change my way of life with this watchtower stuff. I don't want to shoot them to keep them out of my yard.

I could go on and one, but then I might look sorry and desperate like Frazond's lap dog just did. I don't really want to even try to summarize an entire argument in one post. What a waste of time.

[HC_Chief]

Taco John is not a 'good American' - he's a whiny donkey biatch trying to start trouble. If you do not follow his beliefs, if you do not agree with what he professes, you are obviously a neo-nazi racist who wants to clear-cut the world, rape and pillage indigenous peoples, and eat babies.

Typical far-left whacko - you would be best served ignoring the 2-brain celled fool.


<b>8</b> accusations of racism (the 'people like you' comment goes here)

<b>3</b> accusations of hate

<b>3</b> comparisons to Hitler

<b>3</b> 'a55hole' vulgarites

<b>2</b> accusations of fascism

<b>2</b> 'ignorant' labels

<b>1</b> 'garbage'

<b>1</b> 'whiny'

<b>1</b> 'idiot'

<b>1</b> '****ing' vulgarity

<b>1</b> 'jerk'

<b>1</b> 'prick' vulgarity

Predictable little leftist troll.
<h1>DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS</h1>
(thanks to lapdog for the calculations) ;)

[LapDog]

Taco John -

So now you resort to calling ME names and attempting to make me look like a foolish lackey. How predictable.

I didn't include Frazod's arguments because my purpose was solely to attack you. You were attacking him and others indiscriminately and without compunction. You were using tactics intentionally designed to put him on the defensive and taking advantage of his current level of frustration.

And you are intentionally twisting Frazod's intent by implying he would have Mexicans shot. Even in his very first post, it was obvious he was speaking rhetorically. You simply used it as a scapegoat to allow you to call him a racist. I doubt you'd be doing that if you didn't have a at least a little bigotry toward conservative white males.

As for why I'm "wasting my time", nobody else on this thread was revealing you for who you are. They weren't showing the world your tactics for what they are. I'm sure some were too polite to stoop to your level, unwilling to sully themselves to such an extent. I doubt you realized yourself how offensive you were being until it was directed toward you.

Additionally, I'm tired of people, usually liberal-minded people, of accusing calm, fair, and rational people of racism. I'm tired of decent people being victimized and branded by selfish, subsersive people who will do anything to achieve their objective, for good or ill, without regard for the overall impact it will have on our country and our citizens.

Most Americans don't see through the racism bull****, but I do. Since I had the time, and I feel strongly about those who label people racist, and because I HATE hypocrisy, I took it upon myself to set the record straight. Hopefully I've helped a few people recognize that the frequent practice of labelling people racists is nothing but a deplorable and despicable tactic.

And, for what it's worth, the first time I read your original post, the only thing I really disagreed with was the whole Supreme Court, vote-counting thing. Everything else made good sense. Of course I wouldn't be as cheerful as you in supporting the lazy or under-educated citizens.

I have no problem with moderates. I consider myself one. I don't really have a problem with liberals, provided they have justified and reasoned opinions. oleman47 is a good example. I don't agree with him, but at least his arguments and perspective are internally consistent.

The problem is that most liberals behave like you have been. And they tend to hold their beliefs due to a "what's in it for me" mentality. You don't seem to fit my stereotypical liberal and I suspect your opinions are fairly well founded. But, in this thread, you let yourself degenerate into something less than who you are.

LapDog

[Taco John]

Look. Say what you want about my "tactics" but when you start talking about shooting mexicans, I'm going to get in your face about it. To you they might be just greasy mexicans who are here to take my job, and eat my food, and change my way of life, and they might as well be dead (apparently).

To me they are grandparents, cousins, nephews, and people with names and faces trying to make a better life for themselves. Yes, I believe everybody is entitled to a better life. Should they necessarily get it here? Perhaps not. But there seems to be plenty of opportunity here, or else they wouldn't be here, would they?

SO GET OUT OF MY FACE IF YOU ARE GOING TO CALL SOMEONE RATIONAL WHO IS TALKING ABOUT SHOOTING PEOPLE TO PROTECT HIS WAY OF LIFE!

It's ridiculous!

[Taco John]

And HC, you want to talk about being Vulgar, lets not forget your classic comment:

"The only 'smacking' going on is my penis hitting your wife's cheek. She so enjoys being humiliated...

-HC Chief

That's real vulgarities...

If anyone cares to witness HC getting beat down, here's a link:

http://talk.denverpost.com/webx/cgi-bin/WebX?13@76.1lgFa3NGfb4^34@.ee81def

In fact, you can thank him for this thread as well.

[HC_Chief]

Spam on, Taco! It's what you do best (that, and calling people racist or nazi or facist)

Face it - you're a predictable leftist troll. I call you out - and it really pisses you off. Transparent you are...

[LapDog]

Neither I, nor Frazod, nor anybody else wants to see your family or friends get shot. It simply isn't there.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that I thought Frazod was being rational. Clearly he wasn't. I was speaking generally when I said "calm, fair, and rational". My bad. But I do think he's decent. I also think he would have been calm and rational if you hadn't been provoking him.

And now you think I'm a racist. Does anybody see a pattern here?

Alright. I'll step down now because I feel I've made my point.

LapDog

[HC_Chief]

<i>If anyone cares to witness HC getting beat down, here's a link: </i>

LOL - getting 'beat down' eh? So says you, Buttster and LASpammer (great company!)

FYI, LASpammer likes to post swastikas and 'funny' derogatory pictures of George Bush in SS unis and giving a nice little <i>sieg heil</i>. cute stuff (and this guy is supposed to be a liberal?)

Buttster posts things about how Derrick Thomas was a scumbag. He actually <i>cheered</i> his death with "ding dong the witch is dead..." Calls him a murderer...

You fit in nicely with this group of characters Taco.

[LapDog]

HC-

Calling people murderers and Nazis. It sounds like I'm giving Taco too much credit. Maybe he deserves the 'Liberal' stereotype. Do these guys do <i>anything</i> with dignity?

I can only imagine what they would do if Conservatives (besides Rush Limbaugh) resorted to such foolishness.

[HC_Chief]

lap - hehe, no doubt. What I really love is when these guys bunch <i>everyone</i> and <i>anyone</i> who holds a dissimilar viewpoint into one category: conservative. They then proceed to denounce 'conservatives' as greedy, racist, hate-mongering facist nazis with a contempt for all that is good and lovely.

Shallow, incapable of expanded thought, bereft of contemplative reasoning - they try to paint others with fell swoops, but end up regurgitating the same 'ol.

Predictable...

BTW TJ, you just got 'beat down'

[LapDog]

HC,

LOL... you're funny.

LapD

[soliday]

Actually HCChief,

Going back to the original post and subsequent replies Taco John didn't start the name calling

Soliday

[LapDog]

soliday-

True enough. It was the constant cry of 'racism' that drew me into it and inclined me to target Taco John. I'm just really sick of that because it's nearly impossible to defend against in today's society, despite the fact that it's simply wrong.

I've been in Frazod's shoes under different circumstances. I my mind, he was just venting at the start, and then reacting to TJ's barbs later. I feel his pain. Been there and done that. Then, he came clean at the end, which cemented the deal. So I gave him a bye. (But I still have to discuss public smoking with him.)

LapDog

[Cannibal]

And people who lean conservative do the exact same thing. They paint all people who lean to the left w/ the same broad brush. In fact, on this board it's usually a lot worse toward the left leaners. The conservatives on this board usually resort to name calling and hate filled, condesending replies when arguing w/ liberals.

It definitely works both ways. To say it doesn't is ethier dishonest, or ignorant.


The only person who I have seen on this board that legitimately sees both points of view is Gaz.

[Bob Dole]

Bob Dole feels obligated to apologize for being an Amerindian-Hessian and sporting a penis.

[AustinChief]

Mr. Dole ...are you sure on that last part.

Sorry Senator... with the whole viagra thing... I couldn't resist the cheap shot.

--Kyle

[Bob Dole]

Positive.

[LapDog]

Cannibal-

I'm not really conservative. I'm just anti-liberal. Not anti-liberals... there is a difference, you know.

I'm sure conservatives (and anti-liberals) do the same thing. It just isn't as obvious to me when it happens. I don't think it's as egregious, or as frequent, but it does happen. It could be selective memory on my part. But obviously, I don't think so.

I'll take your word on Gaz. I like to think that I'm pretty objective. Actually, it seems to me that most people on this board can see both sides of an issue when they're not in the heat of battle.

But most have a definite preference, at least on some issues. I attribute most of our differences in opinion to differences in values. Some say Compassion is most important, others say Justice. Some say Uniformity is better, some say Diversity. Order vs Creativity, Innocence vs Experience are two more. Yin, Yan. It's just the way life is.

One thing's for sure. You, Clint, oleman47, Taco John, and the rest (Skipper and Mary Ann) have your work cut out for you on this board, since you're definitely in the minority.

Regards,
LapDog

[LapDog]

Hey Dole,

Does that mean that
a) you are from Hesse
b) your ancestors are from Hesse
c) you are a German mercenary who served during the Revolutionary War with the British soldiers
d) you are a practical joker with a bad sense of humor
e) none of the above
f) all of the above


Remember: there are no wrong answers.

[Bob Dole]

Choice "c" would apply to Bob Dole's maternal ancestry.

Although Bob Dole prefers to think of Bob Dole's self (more or less) in the words of Dennis Leary:

<i>I’m just a regular Joe, with a regular job
I’m your average white, suburbanite slob
I like football and porno and books about war
I got an average house, with a nice hardwood floor
My wife and my job, my kids and my car
My feet on my table, and a Cuban cigar...</i>

[LapDog]

Your mom fought in the Revolutionary War?
She must be old.

LD
sorry, I'm degenerating into compulsive behavior

[duncan_idaho]

wow... i sense a lot of love in this topic... :-)

I too live in an area that is overun by MExican immigrants that can't speal English. They work in the Tyson plant near my home...

Suprisingly, most of these people came from California, where they had lived for years, and they still can't speak English. I definitely think knowing how to speak the language of the land should be a requirement for citizenship. There's nothing racist about that...

I'd also like to see a crackdown on illegal immigrants... Tyson's employs hundreds of them, lured by advertising in Mexico that only has 2 English words on it: Sedalia, Missouri.

duncan
proposes building a wall along the Rio Grande... to keep illegals out!

[KCTitus]

LapDog: As I read this post from the beginning, I was noticing the same things that you documented in your dissertation a few posts back. You saved me many words, thanks, cause I was going to observe the same things.

In fact, most of the 'political' or current events posts in the past, this (pulling out the racist tag) is quite the common technique.

There are a couple of points that I noticed, that I thought I would point out:

First, I thought that Taco John was fat fingering the KB or something when he kept mentioning fascism. Facism really doesnt fit in the attacks that he was making, but I find this a common mistake made among those that like to 'hurl the bad buzz words' and it just gets thrown in for good measure. Fascism for those keeping score is a govermental system which is a one party dictatorship with a large centralized govt controlling all industry and finance. It's a pretty good bet that frazod, who was the target of those responses, does not support government control or a dictatorship.

Second, The original post lacks any real conviction or stance on an issue. By that I mean that it's not consistent. IE, 'I see black, but also see white'...With the exception of the last two paragraphs, it's relatively innocuous and as such, since it lacks a consistent stance, I dont see how it could be classified as 'good' over 'bad'--it's more like both at the same time since it has no core.

[LapDog]

KCTitus-

Great post! "dissertation" I like that. I think I'll go for my "PHD" &ltsnicker, I'm so childish&gt as a PoliSci major and I won't even have to do a dissertation. Thanks for the compliments.

Regarding fascism, hee heeeee, I looked that one up too. It was going to be one of my talking points. Taco John is the liberal. If anybody is for centralized government, it would be him, not Frazod. A Fascist accusing Frazod of fascism! Hypocrite!

But I dropped the argument. I found a definition similar to yours. But the definition I found included "severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition". I could have made the 'forcible suppression' stick due to liberals' desire for large, oppressive government. The rub was the economic and social regimentation. That seemed to be something that he could grab hold of and use against me, since many liberals use the 'rich get richer, poor get poorer' class arguments. In retrospect, I should have taken a cue from Bill O'Reilly. He consistantly points out that the demogogues I listed are the ones who are encouraging class warfare and keeping their own people down, for their own personal gain. Still, it's a bone of contention and I wanted my case to be able to avoid armor-piercing attacks.

Did you notice that I returned with communism instead of fascism? I didn't want any chinks in the armor. I figured communist fit better and he was less likely to latch on to it.

I'm very impressed by your second point. Great insight! As I was reading Taco's original post, I had a vague sense that I was being bamboozled, but I couldn't put my finger on it. It wasn't until those last two paragraphs that I instictively recoiled. Good call.

LapDog

[Bob Dole]

Yeah, LapDog...that's it.

How Bob Dole, as an infant, loved being suckled at Bob Dole's mothers' breast while tutored in the intricacies of the Short Plains Kentucky Flintlock Rifle. The memories of her scent--black powder mingled gently with rose hips--return Bob Dole to a much simpler time.

[Taco John]

Fascism is conservative leaning:

fascist adj : relating to or characteristic of fascism; "fascist propaganda" [syn: fascistic] n : an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views


It's the equivalent of someone calline me, a moderate, a communist.

Speaking of hypocrites, Frazod's lapdog throws that word around quite a bit. Funny that he'd accuse me of using the word "racist" so often, and then turn around and throw the word "hypocrite" around like it's nothing.

Perhaps it's because he's a hypocrite himself?

Just an observation.

[LapDog]

Dole,

I'm rolling! Stop it! You're hurting me!

[LapDog]

Taco-

You returned! You're right about that. I am judging and name-calling you, so I am something of a hypocrite. Reread my earlier post and you'll see that I acknowledged that I was sullying myself.

I'm not sure I understand your point about the facism vs communism, though.

[KCTitus]

True, I can see why you would want to leave it out, but as a dictatorship, which I think all of us as Americans oppose, it is by definition 'suppression of opposition'. I think that fascism as a synonym for racism is a recent re-definition of the word, unless, one believes that 'strict nationalism' is inherently racist.

As far as the 'rich get richer' argument, it's almost as silly as the original fascist accusations. It's another one of those sound bite accusations designed to put one on the defensive rather than a support of an opinion.

As far as bullet proof - I would agree, I believe that's why TJ cut and run with the 'high road' response after all of the epithets he'd been running with, it was a laughable response.

[Taco John]

I had a big presentation to give at the office... I'm done now.

I don't really want to get into it about fascism versus communism and the parralells that can be drawn by comparing them to liberals and conservatives. It's an entirely different subject, that takes more energy than I'm willing to offer it right now...

[LapDog]

Originally posted by KCTitus
As far as bullet proof - I would agree, I believe that's why TJ cut and run with the 'high road' response after all of the epithets he'd been running with, it was a laughable response.

Thanks for saying it.

[KCTitus]

TacoJohn: what is 'right wing'. A 'right winger' in China would be considered a hard line communist. Does that jive with a 'right winger' label in the U.S.?

Of course not, your definition or lackthereof, is seriously wanting.

The function of a fascist does not fit with Fraz's stated beliefs. You're not going to seriously contend that Fraz is for large centralized government that controls industry and financial markets.

If so, your education is losing credibility with me.

[LapDog]

Taco John-

I agree with you on that one. I'm not overly interested in pursuing that either. Just wanted to let you know I wasn't understanding your point so you could find a different way to get it across.

LapDog

[oleman47]

Lapdog
Thanks for your observation about this board! There is a slight drift to the right.
Others
Facism is detemined more by its intolerance then its structure or economics. It is the use of this intolerance to achieve political goals. The target may not be of a different race, although that is often the case, but just those who think, or act, or look different. "them". Kings rule by divine right and facists by allegded superiority.

Taco
I found your parody of the arrogance and what followed concerning the "bad american", to be within that context and should be judged as an answer and not a different thread.

Boy, how I wish some of you had been born in Mexico.

[LapDog]

Uh oh...

This is turning into a relay race...
I hope Taco John has somebody to handoff to!


LapDog
dang board keeps interferin with my postin
(not complainin Austin, I'll take what you give me)

[KCTitus]

I cant even find 'facism' in my dictionary, so I guess you can define it however you wish.

Fascism, on the other hand, is defined as a dictatorship with a large centralized government. I dare say that it's somewhat silly to call today's conservatives supporters of 'large centralized government'.

All dictatorships are predicated on intolerance, the intolerance of the dictator whatever he/she may not tolerate.

I just dont think one can use 'racism' and fascism as synonyms.

[DanT]

Britannica.com has a pretty good article on Fascism, from which I've excerpted a paragraph below. Fascism isn't so much about the size of government as it is about the subordination of individual will and the coordination of corporate and government functions in the interests of power.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=127635&tocid=66529
Fascism rejected the main philosophical trends of the 18th and 19th centuries, the “spirit” of the American and French revolutions with their emphasis on individual liberty and on the equality of men and races. The message of the Enlightenment had served to enhance the dignity of the individual and had emphasized openness in a secularized society. In contrast, fascism extolled the supreme sovereignty of the nation as an absolute. It demanded the revival of the spirit of the ancient polis (city-state), above all of Sparta with its discipline and total devotion to duty, and of the complete coordination of all intellectual and political thought and activities against modern individualism and scientific skepticism. The Italian slogan “to believe, to obey, to combat” was fascism's antithesis to “liberty, equality, fraternity,” and to the prophetic and Christian messages of peace. The combination of an unquestioning faith and of a virile combativeness was to transform the nation into a permanently mobilized armed force to conquer, maintain, and expand power.

[soliday]

Let me make two points:

There is a difference between a racist and a racist remark. I have co-workers that make racist remarks to me or in conversation with others. I do not necessarily think that they are racists (perhaps some are), but they definitely reflect the racist thinking and practices that exist in US society. A part of racism is the de-humanizing of a group, and the building up of rationalizations to excuse the practice of racism. For instance, in the Anti-Bellum South a common rationalization was that Africans were intellectually and morally inferior to whites, and that therefore it was actually "the white man's burden" to bring Christian religion to Africans, whether they wanted it or not. It was further rationalized that slavery was actually an institution that provided the opportunity for Africans to benefit from contact with "superior" civilizations, whether they wanted it or not. Of course, the cruder, more dehumanizing aspects of racism grew along with this "benevolent" view. Racism, of course, still exists in this society ( and others), although it has been weakened by the victories of the Civil Rights movement, and by revolutions in countries such as South Africa and Algeria. An outcome of continued racist practices in this country, is the reaction against those practices and behaviors. I think John was reacting against what he perceived to be a racist remark---whether the person who made the remark is a racist is something that, I think, John may be uncertain of, but still it's not surprising that John, or anyone who has faced consistent discrimination, would react in such a way. However, on the other hand, baiting, whether it's race-baiting, or red-baiting, does nothing to achieve any meaningful discussion, and always devolves into, you guessed it, name-calling hysterics.

Secondly, most of the definitions of fascism are useless, because they are so broad that they could include Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, the slave-owning South, and maybe the Roman Empire. To find a useful definition of fascism, I think it's necessary to read books such as "Fascism and Big Business" by Daniel Guerin, a French journalist who lived in Germany and France prior to WWII.

Soliday

[LapDog]

:)

I wholeheartedly concur.

[HC_Chief]

soliday - I realize you are trying to rationalize TJ's comments as you interpretted them, but let me assure you: the guy is a flailing demagogue. I've dealt with him on many previous occasions on a Broncos' forum - he flings aspersions and labels freely; with complete disregard and abandon. He is the kind of person who gives 'liberals' a bad name and helps to perpetuate the whacko leftist stereotype. TJ can come off as a bright individual - and indeed, I believe he is - but not wholely informed, and vary narrow in his perception. One day, I think he'll 'see the light'

[LapDog]

:)

I wholeheartedly concur.
:confused:


:D

[Frazod]

I'm back. Just reviewed the new stuff. What a read.

Lapdog, thanks for defending me in my absence. I particularly enjoyed your dissection of Taco Boy's bullsh!t. Very amusing. Personally, I didn't feel it was necessary to point out that Taco is a racist - his venomous hatred of white Americans has permeated every single post. He has very clearly exposed himself for what he is. I still note that he has never answered my question effectively - why can't Mexicans fix their own country? He just pushes the blame off on us evil white Americans, then wraps himself in indignant rage when any of us even suggest that his darling illegal immigrants cause problems for us. Typical, and tiresome, liberal double-standard crap. I actually kind of pity him.

[Taco John]

Originally posted by frazod
his venomous hatred of white Americans has permeated every single post.


Talk about a reach. Me? Racist against Whites? You have got to be kidding me. If you saw me, you'd think your statement is pretty stupid. I fit the profile of a white guy to a tee. Talk about a ridiculous statement.

As for the rest of your post... Who said America is white? Clearly it's not. I don't blame "White" America for anything. There is no such thing as "White" America...

But that comment gives some real insight as to how you view this country.

[Taco John]

Oh yeah...

I've given you your answers. You just ignored them.

But you haven't told us anything about what would happen to the economy (as far as farming is concerned) is there were absolutely no illegal aliens in America.

Also, point out to me one post where I said that Illegal Aliens don't pose a problem. Sure they do. But I've maintained that you should concentrate your efforts on attacking the problems, not the symptoms. You just can't see the forest through the trees.

[Taco John]

What I'd give to be wholly informed like you obviously elevated individuals...

(sarcasm off)

[Frazod]

There you go again. I never said "White America." I said "White Americans." There are many different types of Americans, and some of us happen to be white. I see your facts are as clear as ever.

And as I've said before, I have no problem with those illegals who come over, work the fields, and go back, as long as they're carefully monitored. Of course, we have enough deadbeats that are here already (of all races) that would probably do the job effectively if we kicked them off the dole and told them here's a job - take it or leave it, but you won't get anymore free money.

And again, you haven't given me an answer on my question - you've simply skirted the issue. You've obviously done this because you have no answer. And when I pin you down on it, you call me a racist. Your crap is getting very, very old.

[Frazod]

And again, if people are illegally entering this country, being a burden to our society, dealing drugs and perpetrating other crimes, and we STOP THEM FROM COMING HERE, we are attacking the source, and the problem.

You're really logic-challenged, aren't you? By the way, 2 + 2 = 4. That one's probably stumped you as well.

[Rick Stephens]

Frazod,

Maybe we need a DMZ along the border that would attack the problem and the source.

[Frazod]

We'd better not go there, Rick. Certain people might confuse upholding our laws and defending our country's borders with being murdering racists.

[Oxford]

Heaven forbid confusing upholding the laws with justice. Every liberal knows that the laws were meant to protect the powerful (because their judges legislated them from the bench)

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Now that I think about it, Taco Johns' tacos aren't that good. They have no taste to them.

CG

couldn't resist

no offense to Taco John the person, I just thought of food when I looked at your name.

[Garcia Bronco]

here is where things are going down

[Garcia Bronco]

Lurker? I forgot that I registered here.

[sd4chiefs]

We could solve two problems if we built some giant hamster wheals in Mexico and the illegals could run around in them and produce electricity for California. We could put a movie screen if front of it with a picture of the border.

[The_Grand_Illusion]

Hey Frazod,

I haven't seen anything that you wrote as racist. I understand many things that you and others wrote especially protecting our borders. I'm one of the small percentage of minorities that don't march in step with the liberals and the DNC. I believe in personal responsibility for everyone. In this day and age, the race card should have died out with disco. Unfortunately liberals keep rehashing it in order to control the masses of minorities and other groups. Anyone who uses the race card only seeks to divide, IMHO.

"Why can't Mexicans fix their own country?"

All I can say there is Mexico has been under varying forms of socialism for many years. Not many opportunities for them in that situation. You can't blame them for trying to come here. Opportunities is what made this country great. Opportunity gave Taco John the chance to get a diploma and earn a big fat paycheck. We should never close our borders for LEGAL immigration. As for Mexico, there is no easy solution. A chance to prosper in their own country would stem the tide of illegal immigration here. Change in Mexico will have to come from within. We can help where we can but throwing money at the problem will only end up in corrupt hands.

TGI

My 2 pesos.

[Frazod]

You have a very refreshing attitude, GI. And I appreciate someone finally stepping up and identifying some of Mexico's internal problems (Taco's a bit short in the sack department when it comes to the truth).

Well, I'm outta here - I've kind of taken the night off - getting tired of endlessly staring at a computer monitor at home and at work. Talk to you all tomorrow.

[oleman47]

Why do people defend Frazod calling Taco a racist and flame Taco?

[Chiefs Pantalones]

(sings) Theres a whole lot of Mexican goin on, goin on in Taco Johns!

CG

sorry, last one :D

[Taco John]

So let me get this straight, Fraz... Your "solution" to the illegal immigration problem is for the government to pay babysitters to watch all the illegal immigrants, and make sure they get out of America by the time harvest is done... Right? How is this solving anything? You're just throwing more money at the problem, and creating an administrative nightmare to boot... But on top of that, what about the people that don't cooperate... Is this the part where they get shot?

Maybe your answer should be more focused at attacking the opportunities that draw illegal immigrants into America... They wouldn't be here if there weren't any jobs for them, now would they? Take your gun laws argument, and adjust it to fit this situation... Why create more laws when you could be enforcing the ones that are already on the books? Isn't it illegal to hire illegal immigrants? But God help the farmers if these laws are enforced.

Your solution to stopping the meth trade in America is to stop Mexicans from getting across the border to sell it... How is that a solution. You're not eliminating the opportunity, your just changing the hands that the money goes into. The only way you are going to stop illegal drug trade is to take the profit out of it. Period. Otherwise, there will always be someone there to pick up the slack. This is America, and where there is money to be made, there will be people there to make it.

In other words, you have no solutions... Just a few half cooked ideas.

I remember growing up my neighbor hated black people. This crotchety old bastard never shut up about how the black people were going to change his quality of life. Guess what? Twenty years have passed, and he's still an as$hole, at the same quality of life too!

[Chiefs Pantalones]

And for the record, I know no one has accused me of being racist, but I am not, I was just having some fun with the name Taco John. I can see how someone would think I was being racist, but I am not, just playin around.

[AustinChief]

OK... I've stayed out of this long enough...

Frazod,
I agree with your frustraion... especially the part about speaking English. This isn't a race question for me it is a culture question. If I move to a foreign country (which I did... for those who don't know, I'm currently living in Spain) I should be expected to at least TRY to blend in with the existing culture. As an American (Thank God) I really don't try to hard... but I would fully understand, if everyone looked down on me because my Spanish sucks or I don't follow local customs.

BUT I don't have any problems with bringing holidays and other cultural "artifacts" to a new culture. I DO have a problem when people expect them to be respected. I'm having a 4th of July party in Spain this year and I FULLY expect it to be ridiculed and seen as a novelty. This is a NORMAL response. It would be SUPREME arrogance for me to expect people to respect MY holidays when I'm in THEIR country. If I was ever to make Spain my permanent home than am I to expect them to adopt MY holidays? NO.

The same applies to language. The idea that we should "make allowances" for foreign speakers IN AMERICA is catering to the lowest common denominator. Making it easy for people to live in America without becoming "Americans"

(to be continued)

[AustinChief]

(and now the rest)

Taco John,

I understand your indignation for what seems a lack of respect for other cultures... but Mexico, Europe, Asia, etc... are FAR worse than America on this subject. Yes, the U.S. is a "melting pot" ... but let's think about what that means. A melting pot is where diffferent items are added together to form a new item... not just a mixture of a bunch of disperate groups. We are an old enough country now to have a national identity and I think that America does a fine job of accepting new peoples into this identity. But if you add a sprig of parsley to tomato soup... it doesn't mean that you should call it parsley soup. Too many people want to not only feel special but be RECOGNIZED as different. I'm proud to be an American.. I don't celebrate Irish holidays (except St. Pats which btw is much more of a holiday in the USA than it is in Ireland) such as Irish independence day... but if I did that would be fine... but I certainly wouldn't expect others to respect my uniqueness in this.

(one last thing)

[AustinChief]

Immigration,

I don't agree with making stricter border controls... because it just won't work. The border with Mexico is FAR to big. Plus, I have ALOT of friends in Texas that are only one generation removed from Mexico. The nice thing is that MOST of them are more "American" than I am. In fact, quite a few of them look very poorly upon the state of affairs in Mexico. It isn't fair to make blanket statements blaming all Mexicans for the joke of a country that Mexico has become. The fact is the "ruling elite" in Mexico (of which I have alot of exposure) are mostly raging dirtbags, who couldn't give a damn about their own people. It is easy for us in America to condemn some of the uprisings that have occured in Mexico in the last few years... but at least it show that there are some people willing to stand up for change.

I don't have an answer for the situation there... so I'm very loathe to make too many sweeping judgements.

---Kyle
(so am I a racist too? or just ethnocentric?))

[Taco John]

I agreed with everything you just said... Even to the last period.

[LapDog]

Austin-

Are you a mediator? If not, perhaps you should consider a career change! Like Taco, I fully agree with your perspective. I'm glad you chimed in.

I've been saying for years that it isn't rasism. It's 'culturism'. I'm glad somebody else sees it. I wonder if everyone does, or if most people just don't get it because they are too busy accusing people of racism or defending themselves from accusations of racism.

Everyone-

My opinion is that if people on the left would stop shouting 'racism' and quit being so thin-skinned, AND people on the right would quit closing their eyes to the problems and state their opinions more politely, that maybe, we could all find where everybody REALLY stands. Then we could hopefully come to a common ground that was not what either side really wanted, but was tolerable for both.

This can only happen if people on the right don't allow radical left-wingers to inflame them, and if people on the left don't allow radical right-wingers to inflame them, either. It would also only work if people get over their selfish "what's in it for me" attitudes.

Each and every one of us needs to ask ourselves frequently, "Am I being too selfish? Am I helping others address their needs as well as my own? What points can I concede to the other side that will encourage them to make a concession as well?"

Incidentally, asking these questions are what morality and indirectly, religion, bring into our society. If people would return to morality, they would automatically treat each other with more respect. Individual respect is what any society needs to run smoothly. This is why morality is important. The lack of morality has been playing a large negative role in our society on many of these issues.

LapDog
serving all mankind ;)

[LapDog]

Fraz-

I was hoping I hadn't said anything to upset you. (Wouldn't want you to shoot my family :) )

Seriously, I wasn't really defending you so much as attacking Taco John. He pissed me off. It was obvious somebody needed to put him his place. While I'm closer to your opinions than his, I do see merit in some of his points. I DON'T agree with his delivery.

As far as stating the obvious, I called Taco a racist for the reasons listed below. I personally don't think he's racist. However, I do believe that he is unfairly stereotyping you and others (myself included) as ignorant, midwestern, arrogant, blindly patriotic (brain-washed), intolerant, lazy hicks who have no sympathy or understanding when it comes to the plight of his Mexican friends and relatives. (John, I suspect that you are probably half-Caucasion, but I still think you have a problem with certain types of white people. This gets back to the comment Austin made about culture.)

1) I hoped to get him to re-think his attitudes toward whites in general and also toward the stereotype he seems to be applying to his opponents on this thread. I was hoping to get him to SEE his racism, if it is actually there. It was a calculated risk with little down side and a fair amount of potential. When somebody recognizes that they stereotype people too, they are more likely to give a little slack to someone who has a different stereotype.

2) I wanted him to see how unfair his comments were. He, and we, have no idea who you are, just like we have no idea who he is. I wanted to show him that it's really easy to draw a conclusion like that and then have it stick in your own mind, even though it's unfounded.

3) I hoped that he would find that being accused of racism is just as offensive as calling somebody '******' or 'spic' (sorry guys and gals) and that it should be reserved for those times when you truly wish to offend someone. If you're talking with a liar, you either work around it or you don't deal with him. You usually don't call him a liar. It get's nothing accomplished. Likewise, if you're talking with a racist, you try to find a way to get him to see it or you don't deal with him at all. You don't call him a racist, especially if you are trying to get him to see your point of view. Again, it get's nothing accomplished.

4) Finally, I was hoping to put an end to all of the antogonistic behavior in general. By providing a sample of really bad behavior, and making it clear why it was bad, I hoped to bring the discussion back to the normal standard that the Planet usually enjoys. I think I succeeded in that regard.


If anyone found my earlier posts offensive, that's regrettable, as it wasn't my intent. However, I felt it had to be done.

LapDog

[Raiderhater]

OK, after reading Donko John's post I think I am going to be sick. " I don't like this, but I am willing to help you out with it anyways". Give me a break! And if the majority of the people are starting to think like this, I want the break to come in the neck. Put me out of my misery now.

Donko,
in defense of Fraz, I think he would want Italians shot at the border if they lived next to us and were causing the trouble. He doesn't have a prejudice against Mexicans as such, just Mexicans, or whatever nationality, who are screwing with OUR country. That's right, OUR country. Our ancestors gave their lives in one form or another so that they and their posterity could live in a nation of freedom. Freedom from big government, freedom from religious persecution, economic freedom, and a whole host of others (the ones I mentioned actually have much to do with the first).


Fraz,
I agree whole heartedly with what you have said (well, I only read about half of the posts, but what I read I agree with). And don't listen to those who think you should calm down. Things won't change with an attitude of "I really don't give a d@mn". Keep the passion, even after you are out of that he!! hole.

[Frazod]

A few responses to new posts:

1. Taco, this may come as a shock to you, but actually my solution to the drug problem is legalization of all drugs. I see America's war on drugs for what it is - an abject failure. The way I see it, there are only two solutions to the drug problem - bomb the places that produce the drugs into oblivion, which isn't realistic (so please don't quote me as advocating it), or concede defeat and offer legal alternatives to the current drug trade (which would go a long way towards obliterating crime everywhere). There is no easy solution to this problem, but the current war on drugs is nothing more than modern prohibition, and it is doomed to failure. However, short of that, increasing the border patrol would help stem the tide, at least a little. I want the flow of illegal immigration cut back (from everywhere, not just Mexico) regardless of what they're bringing, or not bringing, over with them. Obviously Mexico is the biggest problem because they can simply walk or drive here - it's a bit difficult to walk or drive across the oceans others have to cross.

2. Kyle - you have a very realistic attitude about foreign holidays. I've been in Spain on the 4th of July, and take my word for it, its just another day to them. If you pull the kind of stuff Mexicans do here - driving around with an American flag flying out the window of your car and generally raising hell on the 4th, you can fully expect to get your a$$ kicked - and they won't do any soul searching about it, either. I've seen American flags burned in Spain on occasion - they have a very low tolerance for our BS there and react very badly to being disrespected. I and several of my old Navy buddies have the scars to prove it. I could tell you some stories... but another time.

One thing I never mentioned - much like St. Patrick's Day in Ireland, Cinco de Mayo is not nearly as big of a deal in Mexico as it is in the U.S. (there was a story on the news about it). It is apparently a very minor holiday there. Only the Mexicans living in America go berserk over it.

In any event, I've lived my last May 5th anywhere near a place where anyone will give a damn about it (at least on a grand/annoying scale), so I really no longer care about it one way or another.

Lap Dog: Don't worry, the only things I shoot at are targets at the range (and aluminium cans out in the woods whenever I get the chance). It was Taco who referred to you Frazod's Lap Dog - I never had any such ideas on the subject.

[Raiderhater]

Originally posted by oleman47
Why do people defend Frazod calling Taco a racist and flame Taco?


I could be mistaken but, didn't Donko John call Fraz a racist? And we are not supposed to be defend Fraz why?

[Zebedee DuBois]

I think that is just human nature that when people come to live in a land with a new language - that it will take a generation before that family is fluent in the new language. My ancesters got here about 130 years ago, the adults that came over probably never spoke english, but the kids picked it up.

When I have traveled abroad, I try to learn the language before I go, but am always dissapointed in myself for not doing a better job. ( I alway make sure that I can order a beer, and ask directions to the bathroom) I am grateful when the native people help me out, even though I am butchering their language. When I encounter foriegn speakers here at home, I try to be helpful - but if there was an aggresive or violent attitude accompanying the exchange - I would walk away.

Our problem with our southern border is not going to go away until the disparity in living conditions decreases. We can either 1.) wait for Mexico to increase their standard of living. 2.) find someway to help them increase their standard of living, or 3.) continue as we have been (so why bi+ch about it?)

[Frazod]

Jamie, Oleman takes an occasional shot at me - it really isn't a big deal. I'm actually surprised he still comes here - seems he's happy and content with the rest of the liberal idiots over at the pigskin board.

As for your earlier post, I concur. No racist here, I just happen to have a little pride in my heritage, and don't want the country my ancestors fought for, died for and built overrun with people (any people) who have no right to be here at my expense. Selfish bastard? Perhaps. Goose-stepping Nazi? Hardly.

[NaptownChief]

It amazes me when a white American person stands up for their culture and heritage in a peaceful manner they are a closed minded bigot....

When others throw big fits, riot in the streets standing up for what they believe in it is usually referred to as "ethnic pride"....

[LapDog]

frazod -

I'm sure you know I was kidding about the shooting bit. When I read my first sentence, that joke just popped into my head so I went for it. And I know you never considered my your lap dog. We both know that was John's attempt to make me look foolish. It failed.

Who's Jamie? raiderhader?

Zeb -
Usually 2nd generation immigrants do speak English. The thing I'm worried about is that there are so many new Mexicans in southern California, Texas, and maybe other places, that they can actually buy gas, go to the store, go to church, and everything else without having to learn the language. As a result, the kids may end up speaking English poorly, if at all. Urban ghettos and the whole Ebonics thing is an example of how that works.

LapDog
over and out

[Frazod]

Don't worry, Lap Dog, I saw the humor.

BTW, what is the origin of you Lap Dog handle, anyway?

[Raiderhater]

Fraz,
I see nothing selfish about you wanting to protect what has been left to you. But then I am a racist myself, so who cares what I think.


Lapdog,
yes I am Jamie. I would like to say bravo to you for your work on, I think, page four. Where you totaly showed Donko John for what he is. That was excellent work. How long did it take to research all of that, and then type it up?

[LapDog]

I was wondering when somebody would ask.

Well, for one thing, I love dogs. But mostly, because it's a triple entendre. (three meanings for those who don't know)

Friendly, cheerful, wholesome people will automatically think of a favorite pet, so it invokes feelings of friendship and warmth in those people.

People who are less innocent or who have a more jaded look on life, are probably more inclined to think it means something else... uhhh... less wholesome. Those people would be inclined to treat me as an equal, instead of a happy-go-lucky pushover or general loser.

The third meaning would just be a tired dog who's running lap after lap, working his tail off. I figured nobody would think this was the real meaning, but I could make a humorous reference to it at some point.

LapDog
damn I'm a manipulative bastard

[LapDog]

raiderhader -

Thank you for the wonderful compliment. If I told you how much time... you might lose some respect for me.

LapDog
(It was a few hours worth of work, mostly just confirming the accuracy of the logic and ferretting out any flaws in the post. I couldn't allow him to come back at me without a planned response. I intentionally left in one or two errors in the hope he would take the bait and make himself look even more foolish.)

[Frazod]

Alrighty, then.

Personally, mine's a combination of my last name (Frazee) and General Zod, the villian from Superman II. My girlfriend from high school started that one, as I often told her, well, KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

I won't go into any sordid details on that one.... :D

[Raiderhater]

LapDog,
Lose respect for someone who puts that much effort into his work? Are you kidding? The world needs more people like you. Keep it up.


LOL Fraz!

[LapDog]

Frazod

Hee hee..
No need to explain. I read your source in another post some time ago!

LapDog

[Raiderhater]

I am sitting here on the computer reading about Mexicans over running our country, and what to my dismay do I hear outside the window? A couple of gals walking down the street speaking Spanish! The invasion is now in podunk Oklahoma! What the he!!?

[Frazod]

They must have gotten lost on the way to Chicago, Jamie.

Actually, if I hear two people walking down my street speaking English, I find it unusual...

June 1 is just around the corner. Thank God.

[LapDog]

Well..

I hate to further your frustration Fraz, but here in KC, the nearby McDonald's, Wendy's, and Taco Bell all employ mostly Mexican people. The majority of them barely speak English. It is frustrating trying to special order anything. Try to order Cherry Pie and they keep trying to give you apple. I just don't go there very much anymore.

[Raiderhater]

LOL!

Isn't it sad when it is strange to hear your own language in your own country? Pretty soon I'll have to know three or four languages to be able to get by in my own land. And I have enough trouble mastering my own tounge. :rolleyes: There is a reason countries have set a language as a national language - to make life easier.

[oleman47]

The Asians, the Blacks, the Hispanics were brought to America as cheap labor. They have more than paid their way. Look around at the most prosperous nation in history which will soon be governed by these groups.

[Raiderhater]

Oleman,
the ones who are ancestors of the ones who were brought here are paid for. It is the ones who aren't natural citizens that need to pay a price to become one.

[Zebedee DuBois]

As long as there is a great diparity in opportunity between Mexico and the U.S., we will always have this immigration problem.

Do we:
1.) Do nothing, and hope for Mexico to improve herself?
2.) Try to find some way to help Mexico improve?
3.) Just sit and complain about Mexicans?

[AustinChief]

Fraz,

I couldn't tell by your post... but I hope you understood that I understand ENTIRELY your frustration. My point about the 4th of July in Spain was that I know that I'm the exception and I will fully understand any indignation that comes my way. I will not be forcing this holiday on anyone ... it will be a private party on the beach. Even so, I will still expect some ridicule, and rightfully so.

My point is that it is THEIR culture (Spain) and I have NO right to be angry if they don't respect mine.

So instead of being obnoxious about it... I plan to keep things simple and not "force" my holiday on anyone.

--Kyle

P.S. The attitude towards Americans has "softened" alot recently... we are definetely not "hated" so long as we show a measure of respect.

[oleman47]

Raider Hater
How do you know those girls you heard were illegal?

[Rausch]

At this point, I'd rather help out the Russians than the Mexicans...


MY brother married a russian gal(that lil' pinko!) :-)# and I honestly have to say that these people(ok, the 22 I've met) have the best work ethic of ANYWHERE in the US...These people work, then get off and go to job 2, then work, then take 15 minutes for lunch, then work, then think about sleep, then go back to work.

ALl she does is go go go go...She wears me out, and she says that due to the extreme poverty over there now there is no other choice. Corruption is soo bad she compares it to Chicago in the 20's...She says every cop is on the take, and the one's that aren't take orders from one's that are...

We could help this country out, gain their respect and friendship, put tha' last nail in the coffin of the cold war, and take a little of the burden of being the great democratic society and let SOMEONE ELSE help carry that load.


Or, we let them fail due to their own inability to cure the corruption and poverty and allow THEM to sink back into communism, and us BOTH to back to the 60's and practicing useless "duck and cover" drills....


Let's help a brother out...


In the order of "most likely to kick our @$$" in the event we DON'T become friends....

[WackyRuss]

We (the Amerian workers) wanted more money but don't work as hard as the foreigners. Sorry to say that but it is the truth...

[Rausch]

It is the truth...





Did I just agree with you?

[WackyRuss]

who cares what you think Brad

[Rausch]

Ok...



Now that's more like it!



:-)#

[Frazod]

Kyle, I understood what you said and agree with it completely. You are absolutely correct to believe that they don't give a sh!t about our Independence Day, nor should they. Still, I hope you have a good time.

And by the way, I LOVED SPAIN - my favorite of the Mediterranean countries I visited. The Spanish people were by far the friendliest to us Navy types. All incidents of trouble were isolated, and invariably resulted from us getting drunk and rowdy, and them taking offense. They had every right to, as well.

When I was in Spain, I very much regretted not taking Spanish in high school. Didn't have any interest in it at the time. Of course, I never knew I'd visit Spain, or for that matter, live in the largest city in the middle of my own country....

The flag burning incident took place in Cartagena - me and another guy got lost and came across a big demonstration, where several hundred very pissed-off Spaniards were burning our flags. My friend and I were pissed, but since we were outnumbered 200 to 1, we wisely, quitely and quickly left. The only time I ever saw that happen.

I'd love to go back to Spain. Hopefully, one day I will.

[Frazod]

Hey Wacko, maybe I care what he thinks. Perhaps you should take your stupid a$$ back over to the pigpen.

[Rausch]

thanks man, I mean, it's hard making new friends at a new school, and the kids give ya' a hard time, and no one let's you in the milk line, and bla bla bla.....

[Frazod]

No problem, Brad. I got my fill of this guy's sniping crap on the Star BB. Never has anything good to say about anyone.

[Rick Stephens]

Brad,

You are so right about the Russian people. I have some Russian friends who came to this country with very little. They worked very long days, 7 days a week. They ask for nothing and are eager to learn and contribute to our society. They are eager to learn our ways and speak our language. Ask them where they are from and they will tell you, "We are American's by way of Russia" not some hyphenated word American.

[Frazod]

I don't know any Russians, but one of my best friends married into a family from Romania. They've all immigrated over here legally, speak English fluently (most learned it here, quickly), work hard and are good, productive people. I've got no problem with that kind of immigrant.

[Rick Stephens]

Frazod,

One of the other BB's that I visit had a big debate over the topic of illegal immigration. It is a gun board and even the Mexican's on there think that the border's need to be tightened up and the immigrants need to learn English. I thought it was rather funny after the same debate had gone on here.

They even posted a picture of the billboard which welcome's one to "California the Illegal Immagrant State."

[oleman47]

When you see a Mexican how do you know he/she is illegal and worth your scorn?

[Frazod]

That is a good point Rick, but in fairness, I doubt if you'll find a lot of liberals on a gun board....

[stevieray]

I don't know Oleman, you seem to have no problem with it. Scorning others, that is.


Go get ahug from your woman. it 'll make you feel better.

[Logical]

Having read most of the posts,

I just want to say that I feel the first post from Frazod, and the first from Michael Michigan cover most of what I would have said.

Good job guys,

To the pinking liberals............pffttt.

[Frazod]

Hey Jim, I noticed in my few visits to pigskin park that you are a moderator, along with Denise. :eek: How's that working out for you?

[Taco John]

Wow... It turned into a real back slapping fest over here. Frazod's lap dog is a hero!

Personally, I found a lot of nonsense in your well researched post, Lapdog, but I wasn't willing to spend a few hours going point by point. You misrepresent my thoughts a couple of times, make a few stretches in logic a couple of other times... But the whole thing was aimed to please the conservative crowd here. It didn't matter what you said to attack me, so long as you threw in a couple of conservative leaning references, you were going to get a pat on the head from all of the conservatives here.

By the way, your point about racism and culturalism earlier... Culturalism is just a PC term for racism... a good way to soften the blow...

Any way, here's a milkbone.

[Joe Seahawk]

Taco Bell, Taco Time, ...but no Taco John's ..at least here in Seattle...Is there Taco del mar's in K.C?

Just curious.....Joe
Getting hungry.

[Frazod]

Good luck trying to get Taco to lighten up, Joe. He doesn't seem to have much of a sense of humor.

Although he does have comical arguments....

[LapDog]

Mighty big of you John.

Have a good evening.
LapDog

[Michael Michigan]

Lap Dog-

I just read your post on 5-7 listing TJ's emotional tirades.

I feel a bit responsible.

As everyone else was blistering him on the issues, I pointed out how fraudulent, contradictory and unoriginal his posts were.

I plead guilty--I was bored.

I just picked out one of my favorite liberal lures, and put a line in the water. He bit like a bottom feeding catfish, and I set the hook.

The rest was just a little line play.

His first response showed that the hook was causing a great amount of pain--and he reacted just as I believed he would.

A profanity laced poorly worded emotional tirade.

Unfortunately, he was a small fish and put up a pathetic fight, so I used the catch and release routine.

I would have cut the line, however it is one of my favorite lures.

[Joe Seahawk]

MM, Your E-mail addy wont work?
Am I a spaz? or do you no longer have the qwest addy..?


BTW...LMAO...
"Nice fish Hank hell of a fish"!

[LapDog]

MM,

Yikes! I've been had! I'm pretty new to this fishing stuff, or I may have seen that.


Well at least I had a good time!

LapDog

[HC_Chief]

Tj - you got worked. You got beat, smacked, punked, whipped, torn, shredded, thumped, kicked and mangled.

Get yourself a sense of humor, an education, and a pair of balls before you bring this weak tripe back to our forum.

Donkey putz.

[Taco John]

Wow. You guys are all really full of yourselves.

HC, you offered nothing this entire thread... Why would you start chirping in? Oh, I forgot... It's because that's all you have to offer.

Anyway, this thread is nothing more than back pats. You guys aren't interested in debating issues. You'd rather just make up your mind, and then offer your side, and then give fishing analogies aout your apparent "victory." Typical.

Adios... Ooops! I meant "goodbye." Didn't mean to screw with your way of life there.

[KCTitus]

TJ: what have you offered? A conviction-less play on the Carlin diatribe. Stated that there are two problems, Opportunity and Frazod and people like him.

I'd really like to understand how 'opportunity' is part of the problem, but alas you are gone now.

Lapdog identified what I saw was a major flaw in your debate...that you quickly jumped to epithets and labels rather than argue points.

I agree, however, it's probably good that you leave since you too offer nothing else up as far as debate is concerned.

[DiscoJones]

Mr. Milosevic...er....I mean Mr. Frazod,

We will take care of those ethnic Albanians....er...I mean ethnic Mexicans for you in no time.

Ethnic cleansing begins in t-minus 5 minutes....

|>
|
|
Sarcasm Flag

Interesting similarities between this discussion and the conflict that our country was involved in. Okay, so how many of you who support Fraz supported what we were doing in Yugoslavia?

Fraz's ideas may not be as militant, but it looks to me like many of you would not be opposed to more militant measures.

Just observations, so please avoid pressing me into your political paradigms.

Stick and move.....

[KCTitus]

Im having trouble seeing the similarities, Disco.

In Yugoslavia, one side was killing the other, but both sides were residents of the same country just different races. The U.S. policy was to not give guns to the bosnians to defend themselves so they were systematically destroyed by the serbs.

Fraz's comments were with regard to illegal aliens in the country illegally and wanting to protect the U.S. borders against illegal immigration.

Am I missing something?

[DiscoJones]

Titus - Don't forget about the part where U.S. servicemen and women carried out bombings against the Serbs - this is the key issue. People were so intent on protecting the ethnic Albanians; however, they are not so content protecting the ethnic Mexicans in their own back yard.

So here's the real question....How do you differentiate between ethnic Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, and illegal Mexicans? I hope you know, because I sure as heck don't and I don't think that Fraz does either.

Sweeping nationalistic generalizations about ethnic ______ (fill in the blank) do not make the distinction either. And stop me if I'm wrong here, but I'm willing to bet that most of the people in Fraz's neighborhood (which he so eloquently complains about - good thing he finally learned that he has the right to move) are indistinguishable as legal/illegal. And I get the impression that Fraz could care less if they were legal or not as long as they weren't collecting federal subsidies. Like I said a long time ago, this country will be in the same predicament as the Serbs once the Texicans are a larger portion of the country. Many people have already begun to express this sentiment on this post.

And who complains about speaking Spanish when they live in a place named Los Angeles? Do you refer to your municipality as Angel City?....El Paso...San Diego....San Antonio...what do you expect?

[HC_Chief]

LOL - look at the little monkey dance!

<img src="http://www.peanut-institute.org/images/dancing.gif">
Here you go TJ - a dancing peanut, for my sweet little dancing organ-grinder monkey!

[KCTitus]

Disco: I think you're attributing to me things I didnt say.

A legal resident should have the ability to prove he/she is a legal resident. Please, lets not go off the deep end here, but what I mean by that is a legal resident should be able to provide birth certificate or something when applying for identification such as DL or SSN.

Is protecting the borders of the U.S. from illegal immigration the same as a civil war in Yugoslavia? Im still having troubles distinguishing.

The U.S. policy, even when Bush Sr. was in office, was to withhold arms from the ethnic albanians to prevent the conflict from escalating, of course all this did was get a lot of them killed in a hurry.

[DiscoJones]

Oh and uh FYI Titus -

No offense, but Bosnia & Herzegovina are not part of Yugoslavia (you can check the atlas at www.mapquest.com. The issue was between "Serbs" and "ethnic Albanians". The issue on this thread is between "Americans" and "ethnic Mexicans".

Here's another similarity. Yugoslavia shares its border to the south with Albania while the U.S. shares its border to the south with Mexico.

[KCTitus]

uh Disco, maybe you should re-read the earlier posts.

The issue that Fraz was talking about was 'illegal' immigration.

[Rick Stephens]

Disco,

I don't think that this thread is about people hating Mexicans. No one is saying to kill these people because they are Mexican. People who come here legally and want to blend into our societyand are productive are not the ones people have a problem with. It is the ones that are here using phoney papers, documents, and green cards and getting the free ride that are the problem. We are a nation of laws. When these people cross the border illegally, then they are a criminal. Should we not enforce the laws of the land?

[DiscoJones]

Titus - The first paragraph of my reply regarding the bombings was directed at you. The rest was for anyone.

Regarding your request for "proof". Apparently (according to some on this board), illegals can already obtain DLs and even voter registration cards. How are you going to implement a more thorough check on ALL immigrants and how are you going to fund it? Also, how would you deal with citizens whos parents are illegals? If you get rid of the parents, the state has to raise the kids; if you let the parents stay, you will still have illegals coming here, having kids, and hanging around.

[DiscoJones]

It is the ones that are here using phoney papers, documents, and green cards and getting the free ride that are the problem.

And I don't understand how you people propose to solve this problem. It seems to me that adding additional responsibilities to the INS will increase federal reach as well as you taxes.

Still nobody has answered Oleman's original inquiry with regard to diistinguishing between legal/illegal. Further, I don't think that anyone has even touched on a solution to Fraz's neighborhood problem which he publicized so well. What are you going to do if all those drug dealers and Mexican nationalists are actually U.S. citizens?