View Full Version : Perhaps a flaw in Herm's entire philosophy?
Direckshun
08-17-2007, 11:45 AM
Herm Edwards wants to play field position football. Win the possession war, get yourself in the best field position for scoring opportunities. Field position football usually implies a conservative offense with a tough defense. Your offense isn't the flashiest thing on earth, and doesn't need to be. Your defense needs to be stingy and create turnovers.
I smell a problem with this philosophy, and it seems to be the way-deep Cover 2 that the Chiefs play. The Cover 2 is a keep-everything-in-front-of-you, bend-but-don't-break defense, prone to give up smaller chunks of yards and can allow the offense to move a bit past the 50 before it gets progressively tougher to penetrate.
The Cover 2's bend-but-don't-break nature doesn't seem field-position friendly, and it hasn't been during our preseason games or towards the end of the 2006 season. It puts our conservative offense in deep field position routinely and a smashmouth offense can't compensate for that terribly well.
Am I way off base, or did I just spot a crack in Herm's entire gameplan?
RedThat
08-17-2007, 11:52 AM
I still think his philosophy can work if he has the right personnel to run it.
And that is something that appears to be questionable with this team. I think a cover 2 can be effective if you have dominating DT's. Which the Chiefs don't have. And you have to have defenders that are REALLY REALLY good tacklers. We didn't see none of those in the game last night.
HonestChieffan
08-17-2007, 11:53 AM
Herm.
Flawed.
Move on.
Here on the doom train, the evening movie is, "Why Do Herm Do The Things He Do?". They they point that we don't need a QB with a rocket arm to play conservative offense, either.
Herm is a man of many contradictions.
FAX
ROYC75
08-17-2007, 12:01 PM
Tampa never had a great offense in it's days ..........
Micjones
08-17-2007, 12:01 PM
There's been a chink in his armor from Day 1.
We need to play to this team's strengths.
ROYC75
08-17-2007, 12:01 PM
It's a work in progress guys, ride the storm out, give it time.....
Micjones
08-17-2007, 12:04 PM
I'm fine with giving Edwards time.
I just don't think you go fixing what isn't broken.
I think since Croyle, himself, is a work in progress that you loose him and try to score some points.
We don't exactly have to be a high-flying circus, but open it up a bit. Offensive predictability isn't the way to long-term success. Not at least until this defense has turned the corner completely.
Herm.
Flawed.
Move on.
Yep.
Stinger
08-17-2007, 12:23 PM
We need to play to this team's strengths.
Punting??
HonestChieffan
08-17-2007, 12:26 PM
There's been a chink in his armor from Day 1.
We need to play to this team's strengths.
Please refrain from ethnicity references here.
bobbything
08-17-2007, 12:29 PM
Herm Edwards wants to play field position football. Win the possession war, get yourself in the best field position for scoring opportunities. Field position football usually implies a conservative offense with a tough defense. Your offense isn't the flashiest thing on earth, and doesn't need to be. Your defense needs to be stingy and create turnovers.
I smell a problem with this philosophy, and it seems to be the way-deep Cover 2 that the Chiefs play. The Cover 2 is a keep-everything-in-front-of-you, bend-but-don't-break defense, prone to give up smaller chunks of yards and can allow the offense to move a bit past the 50 before it gets progressively tougher to penetrate.
The Cover 2's bend-but-don't-break nature doesn't seem field-position friendly, and it hasn't been during our preseason games or towards the end of the 2006 season. It puts our conservative offense in deep field position routinely and a smashmouth offense can't compensate for that terribly well.
Am I way off base, or did I just spot a crack in Herm's entire gameplan?
If the defense does what it's supposed to (create turnovers), then the "bend but don't break" philosophy works fine.
Personally, I think playing this way doesn't work that much anymore. Hopefully, I'll be proven wrong. I just don't like the mentality of playing "not to lose" on offense. I'd prefer to be aggressive and, if the defense is as good as it's supposed to be, then some mistakes at the expense of being aggressive won't hurt as much.
No risk/no reward.
Priest4Prez
08-17-2007, 12:33 PM
Please refrain from ethnicity references here.
ROFL ROFL ROFL That deserves rep ROFL ROFL ROFL
InChiefsHeaven
08-17-2007, 12:39 PM
If the defense does what it's supposed to (create turnovers), then the "bend but don't break" philosophy works fine.
Personally, I think playing this way doesn't work that much anymore. Hopefully, I'll be proven wrong. I just don't like the mentality of playing "not to lose" on offense. I'd prefer to be aggressive and, if the defense is as good as it's supposed to be, then some mistakes at the expense of being aggressive won't hurt as much.
No risk/no reward.
But, but Herm says you PLAY to WIN the GAME!!
Heh. I don't have a problem with a ball control offense, but you have to be able to control the ball. (DUH.) This won't happen over night, but I think we're on the right track. Scoring 10 offensive points per game and then putting it in the hands of your D is not the way to go, I think we need to be able to depend on 17-20 per game. That's a lot to ask right now.
Wile_E_Coyote
08-17-2007, 12:42 PM
The offense were grandpas, the defense couldn't find their dicks with a map. Replacing them all will take time
MGRS13
08-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Tampa never had a great offense in it's days ..........No, but this defense is FAR from the one that played in Tampa.
Priest4Prez
08-17-2007, 12:46 PM
so, how bad are we?
Direckshun
08-17-2007, 12:54 PM
Here on the doom train, the evening movie is, "Why Do Herm Do The Things He Do?".
See, I don't think this qualifies as a doom thread, but maybe I'm wrong.
I just don't think I'm the doom kind of guy.
See, I don't think this qualifies as a doom thread, but maybe I'm wrong.
I just don't think I'm the doom kind of guy.
My apologies. To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that you, personally, were on the doom train, Mr. Direckshun.
But, tonight's special in the dining car is Shank.
FAX
OnTheWarpath15
08-17-2007, 01:07 PM
See, I don't think this qualifies as a doom thread, but maybe I'm wrong.
I just don't think I'm the doom kind of guy.
Almost every thread around here turns into a doom thread. It's just a matter of time.
What's Vick gonna Do?
- Vick's in deep shit....
- So he killed a couple of dogs, so what.....
- Herm is teh suck......
Free tickets to tonights game
- I'll take them!
- If he doesn't want them, I'll go.
- Why go? Were just gonna lose anyway.....
Prayers for my family, please
- Sorry for your loss.....
- Thoughts and prayers to you and your family....
- Carl Peterson is the worst GM EVAH!11!1
ROYC75
08-17-2007, 01:09 PM
No, but this defense is FAR from the one that played in Tampa.
And with that, Tampa's D wasn't built in one year either after Dungy took over ........ Sorry but It took time......
FloridaMan88
08-17-2007, 01:18 PM
You just realized a philosophy that involves running the ball 99.9% of the time and scoring 10 points a game is flawed??
OnTheWarpath15
08-17-2007, 01:20 PM
Like ****ing clockwork.
HonestChieffan
08-17-2007, 01:21 PM
Not if it works
But if it doesnt, its a poor strategy
Tribal Warfare
08-17-2007, 01:23 PM
And with that, Tampa's D wasn't built in one year either after Dungy took over ........ Sorry but It took time......
Tony Dungy made bigtime strides in his second year as HC in Tampa, so yeah year 2 of a HC true assesment coaching and team management.
the Talking Can
08-17-2007, 01:38 PM
You just realized a philosophy that involves running the ball 99.9% of the time and scoring 10 points a game is flawed??
I was wrong to have wished cancer on Tony Kornholer.
I admit it.
I wish you had cancer.
StcChief
08-17-2007, 01:41 PM
Patience Planet grasshoppers
ROYC75
08-17-2007, 01:51 PM
Tony Dungy made bigtime strides in his second year as HC in Tampa, so yeah year 2 of a HC true assesment coaching and team management.
Hang on a bit here, I'm not a Hermie kinda guy here. Was against this hire but we are just entering the 2nd year.....
talastan
08-17-2007, 01:59 PM
The offense were grandpas, the defense couldn't find their dicks with a map. Replacing them all will take time
:skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip:
Get off our line of scrimmage you damn kids!!!!
Tribal Warfare
08-17-2007, 03:25 PM
Hang on a bit here, I'm not a Hermie kinda guy here. Was against this hire but we are just entering the 2nd year.....
yep 1st year is a muligan due to leftovers and new scheme the 2nd year one better make drastic positive progress. look at Sean Peyton of the Saints a rookie HC gets into the NFC Championship game. With the current FA statues a team can't complete a "5 year plan, but it has to be within three years, or it's a wash because contracts will expire and the business part of the NFL will takover
There's been a chink in his armor from Day 1.
We need to play to this team's strengths.
What that is I'm not sure. Do we have a strength?
KCTitus
08-17-2007, 07:18 PM
hay...runnin it and playin defense is a philosophy of many coaches in the NFL.
Logical
08-17-2007, 07:26 PM
I was wrong to have wished cancer on Tony Kornholer.
I admit it.
I wish you had cancer.Come on tTC you really don't mean that.
the Talking Can
08-17-2007, 07:51 PM
Come on tTC you really don't mean that.
Repost
milkman
08-18-2007, 06:27 AM
If the defense does what it's supposed to (create turnovers), then the "bend but don't break" philosophy works fine.
Personally, I think playing this way doesn't work that much anymore. Hopefully, I'll be proven wrong. I just don't like the mentality of playing "not to lose" on offense. I'd prefer to be aggressive and, if the defense is as good as it's supposed to be, then some mistakes at the expense of being aggressive won't hurt as much.
No risk/no reward.
Playing not to lose has never worked.
Chris Meck
08-18-2007, 10:40 AM
no, but ball control offense, power running, stout defense teams win plenty. SB's too.
Chief Faithful
08-18-2007, 10:45 AM
Playing not to lose has never worked.
True, but ball control, power running, with good defense works often. Unless of course your name is Marty.
Simplex3
08-18-2007, 10:53 AM
No, but this defense is FAR from the one that played in Tampa.
Not to mention the fact that Tampa never ran a Herm-style offense.
They both use a base cover 2. The comparisons stop there.
Direckshun
08-24-2007, 11:14 AM
I continue to think this is a problem.
We have lost the field position battle consistently in these three games, and it's because teams are dinking and dunking their way down the field. Our defense usually tightens up in the gold zone, but by then they're on the verge of field goal range. Our offense has been too conservative to give us a consistently good hand in the field position battle.
HonestChieffan
08-24-2007, 11:15 AM
isnt that the red zone?
I continue to think this is a problem.
We have lost the field position battle consistently in these three games, and it's because teams are dinking and dunking their way down the field. Our defense usually tightens up in the gold zone, but by then they're on the verge of field goal range. Our offense has been too conservative to give us a consistently good hand in the field position battle.
We've done fairly well stopping the run, but the Saints completed a lot of passes last night. In most cases, the receiver was wide open.
El Jefe
08-24-2007, 11:17 AM
All of Herm's philosophy not just defense, but everything is solid. If you have the roster to execute his conservative gameplans you will win. IE: Steelers, Ravens, Tampa Bay (few years back), even the Bears (though they didnt win a SB). We just dont have the roster to play this way....yet.
Reerun_KC
08-24-2007, 11:18 AM
We've done fairly well stopping the run, but the Saints completed a lot of passes last night. In most cases, the receiver was wide open.
And they caught the ball as well....
pikesome
08-24-2007, 11:21 AM
We've done fairly well stopping the run, but the Saints completed a lot of passes last night. In most cases, the receiver was wide open.
This is the question I'd be asking my defense, "Where the ****ing **** was the pass coverage?!?"
There was some bad I kinda expected but the craptasic coverage wasn't one of them. Especially against NO, what did the D think they'd do? Run, run, run?
Direckshun
08-24-2007, 11:22 AM
We've done fairly well stopping the run, but the Saints completed a lot of passes last night. In most cases, the receiver was wide open.
90% of those passes were out to the flat or to a checkdown receiver.
We're preventing big plays most of the time, and that's great. That's exactly what the Cover 2 is supposed to do. But it comes at the expense of any tight coverage whatsoever on those checkdown receivers.
Brees played real smart and ignored the 20-yard passes we had blanketed and consistently went for the 5- or 6-yard pass in the flat that we had left open.
TN_Chief
08-24-2007, 11:47 AM
A flaw in Herm's philosophy? The Hell you say!
(actually, I don't think Herm really has a philosophy)
KCTitus
08-24-2007, 01:03 PM
A flaw in Herm's philosophy? The Hell you say!
(actually, I don't think Herm really has a philosophy)
The Hell you say...Herm plays to WIN THE GAME! That's his philosophy...
If only they gave points for punts...
TN_Chief
08-24-2007, 01:08 PM
If only they gave points for punts...Herm is under the impression that you get 3 points whenever you kick the ball. He's been working on the dropkick with Croyle...they're going to unveil it during the regular season.
HypnotizedMonkey
08-24-2007, 01:15 PM
LJ will make this team a lot better.. and now that he got his money, I have a feeling the best is about to come out of him... you can't properly judge a team without its MVP.. he gets paid that much because he can change the game. Herm will be fine.
Coogs
08-24-2007, 01:21 PM
Herm Edwards wants to play field position football. Win the possession war, get yourself in the best field position for scoring opportunities. Field position football usually implies a conservative offense with a tough defense. Your offense isn't the flashiest thing on earth, and doesn't need to be. Your defense needs to be stingy and create turnovers.
I smell a problem with this philosophy, and it seems to be the way-deep Cover 2 that the Chiefs play. The Cover 2 is a keep-everything-in-front-of-you, bend-but-don't-break defense, prone to give up smaller chunks of yards and can allow the offense to move a bit past the 50 before it gets progressively tougher to penetrate.
The Cover 2's bend-but-don't-break nature doesn't seem field-position friendly, and it hasn't been during our preseason games or towards the end of the 2006 season. It puts our conservative offense in deep field position routinely and a smashmouth offense can't compensate for that terribly well.
Am I way off base, or did I just spot a crack in Herm's entire gameplan?
I agree. In fact, I made the very same comment in another thread about this very thing. Looks like you beat me to the punch by a week or so though. :)
KCTitus
08-24-2007, 02:15 PM
LJ will make this team a lot better.. and now that he got his money, I have a feeling the best is about to come out of him... you can't properly judge a team without its MVP.. he gets paid that much because he can change the game.
I sure hope so...the last game I watched with the teams MVP in the backfield wasnt very good against a team whose rush defense was pretty bad.
HypnotizedMonkey
08-24-2007, 02:37 PM
I sure hope so...the last game I watched with the teams MVP in the backfield wasnt very good against a team whose rush defense was pretty bad.
I agree.. but playing on the road in the playoffs is tough .. and the offensive play-calling was a bit dry and predictable compared to the last week of the season's game vs Jax. LJ was probably pretty worn out too.. if Michael Bennet can stay healthy, LJ might be able to save some for the playoffs. Excuses are like A-holes though... Personally, I think the real problem might lie at Offensive Coordinator.
KCTitus
08-24-2007, 02:40 PM
Personally, I think the real problem might lie at Offensive Coordinator.
Fair enough...personally, I think the real problem lies in the OL...while KC was scrambling for defensive talent they ignored the aging OL.
HypnotizedMonkey
08-24-2007, 02:49 PM
Fair enough...personally, I think the real problem lies in the OL...while KC was scrambling for defensive talent they ignored the aging OL.
Yeah it all starts with the O-line... and from the looks of it, anyone back there is going to take a beating this year. Mike Solari is going to have to get creative.
KCTitus
08-24-2007, 02:53 PM
Yeah it all starts with the O-line... and from the looks of it, anyone back there is going to take a beating this year. Mike Solari is going to have to get creative.
yep...if a defense stacks the line and presses the WR's at the line, I dont see anything that KC can do at this point.
Coogs
08-31-2007, 10:33 AM
I watched a replay of the first half on channel 62 out of KC last night at 10:30. And the same thing happened again. The starting defense let the Rams move at will down the field again. Basically twice. A couple of penalties was all that kept the Rams to a FG on the 1st drive, and the 2nd drive started at ther 1, and they were able to move the ball right down the field a chew up the clock with no problem at all.
I know the offense looks crappy right now, but the defense has it's own share of problems as well IMO.
I watched a replay of the first half on channel 62 out of KC last night at 10:30. And the same thing happened again. The starting defense let the Rams move at will down the field again. Basically twice. A couple of penalties was all that kept the Rams to a FG on the 1st drive, and the 2nd drive started at ther 1, and they were able to move the ball right down the field a chew up the clock with no problem at all.
I know the offense looks crappy right now, but the defense has it's own share of problems as well IMO.
If I were game-planning for the enemy, I'd focus on the fact that young, inexperienced safeties playing in the C2 is a recipe for long drives fueled by the short pass game. Apparently, our biggest strength on the d-line is still the end position and short drops nullify them as well as the blitz.
I'm hopeful that our linebackers and our interior d-line step up in a big way.
FAX
Chiefnj2
08-31-2007, 10:47 AM
The bend don't break is okay as long as your offense can strike back occassionally and score a TD over the other teams FG's. Sadly TD's and even FG's look like they may be very difficult to come by.
Safe bet - bet the UNDER on all KC games.
htismaqe
08-31-2007, 11:54 AM
The bend don't break is okay as long as your offense can strike back occassionally and score a TD over the other teams FG's. Sadly TD's and even FG's look like they may be very difficult to come by.
Safe bet - bet the UNDER on all KC games.
The fundamental premise of the BDB philosophy is that you force the opposing offense to run more plays for shorter yardage, in the hopes that you can force a turnover. So far, we haven't been able to force shit.
MahiMike
08-31-2007, 01:27 PM
This is pretty much the same flaw of all defensive-minded coaches regardless of what scheme they invent on defense. Their teams are usually in tight games where your whole season can be lost on turnovers. Having a defensive mindset is like rolling over like a little dog and trying to win a fight. You have to hope some help comes your way.
This is pretty much the same flaw of all defensive-minded coaches regardless of what scheme they invent on defense. Their teams are usually in tight games where your whole season can be lost on turnovers. Having a defensive mindset is like rolling over like a little dog and trying to win a fight. You have to hope some help comes your way.
ROFL
Agreed, Mr. MahiMike. Hermoine is counting on turnovers, to be sure. And, based on the games so far, it appears as though they're going to be necessary. The other problem he's going to have is, assuming the enemy can effectively exploit our young safeties with the short and intermediate passing game, we're going to lose the TOP battle in a big way.
Given Downfield's charge to safely "manage" the games and considering Solari's innovative play-calling, we could have a ton of three and outs on offense, as well. That means we're going to be putting one weary puppy on the field in fourth quarters.
FAX
vBulletin® v3.8.8, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.