You want to blame someone for Solari?

[Hammock Parties]

Blame Dick Vermeil.

Q: Is (offensive line coach) Mike Solari ready to be an offensive coordinator?

VERMEIL: “He is ready. If Mike did that he would have somebody with him that is involved deeply in the passing game. Mike has really been zeroed in on pass protections and the running game and not so much with pass patterns and the quarterback. Mike Solari is unlimited.”

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/01/09/dick_vermeil_on_head_coach_herman_edwards/

[kc1977]

Blame Dick Vermeil.



http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/01/09/dick_vermeil_on_head_coach_herman_edwards/

Carl's worst decision during his tenure was to bring in Dickie. Set this franchise back a decade, probably, when it is all said and done. But his buddy got to prove that he could build an offense as good as Martz did.

[StcChief]

Yeah thanks for your vast knowledge and judgement about Slowari's potential....

this assumes the Oline stayed strong I bet.

[Pablo]

Aren't you forgetting that everything that goes wrong with the Chiefs is Herm's fault?

I mean, C'mon. We all know DV was the Coach of the Millenium, and Herm is trash and has ruined this organization.

Where's Chiefsfans1963 when you need him?

[Zouk]

Everything is Vermeil's fault. Plus Carl's, plus Lynn Stiles'. The only good young player they left on this offense was LJ (who Vermeil didn't want) and he's way over-rated. Solari has no good young veteran talent to work with. It's all rookies and Tony Gonzalez.

I think that Herm firing Solari would be unfair. You can't playcall your way around a horrible offensive line, terrible receivers (except Bowe), and an overmatched and/or rookie quarterback. I think our best chance of success next year is to keep Croyle and Bowe from learning a new system, and improve the talent around them. We're pretty well set up draft pick and salary cap-wise to do that.

[tk13]

Why not, everything else is Vermeil's fault. What's he supposed to say? No, he isn't? Vermeil never said a negative thing about anybody in a press conference unless he was a kicker. He went to the Tony LaRussa school of defending his people.

[Hammock Parties]

I think that Herm firing Solari would be unfair.

LOL.

It's happening.

[Pablo]

Herm has to fire Solari. He has to have a scapegoat. Something to ease the fan's collective minds.

Now..if CP leaves on his own will, that might save Solari his job, but I doubt that will happen.

[Reerun_KC]

Herm has to fire Solari. He has to have a scapegoat. Something to ease the fan's collective minds.

Now..if CP leaves on his own will, that might save Solari his job, but I doubt that will happen.


Your right he does have to fire him, Herms OC's only last two years max... Sadly, this isnt the first time Herm has fired an offensive coordinator failing to execute his offense.

He went through 3-4 in 6 years at the Jets...

What are we going to do when we replace all these people, players, etc, and the offense is just a putrid next year as it is this year with a different OC? It happened during his tenure at NY... Many changes same play calling and results...

Just wondering?

[Reerun_KC]

Dick Curl in 08!

[DaKCMan AP]

I blame Reerun_KC

[FAX]

Blame Dick Vermeil.



http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/01/09/dick_vermeil_on_head_coach_herman_edwards/

"If Mike did that he would have somebody with him that is involved deeply in the passing game. ...”

Well, does he? Does Mike have somebody with him that is involved deeply in the passing game?

FAX

[Hammock Parties]

"If Mike did that he would have somebody with him that is involved deeply in the passing game. ...”

Well, does he? Does Mike have somebody with him that is involved deeply in the passing game?

FAX

Terry Shea last year.

This year...DICK CURL! ROFL

[Reerun_KC]

I blame Reerun_KC
Yeah me to!

Lets hang that b*stard! Oh wait? :banghead:

[Chiefnj2]

Just wondering?

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Solari has been plagued by a horrible OL. There isn't much any OC can do when you have such a poor OL, a struggling receiving corps and an immobile QB.

If Solari goes you have to not only replace 3 OL, get a few new receivers, etc., you also have to worry about everyone and guys like Croyle and Bowe learning another new system.

[xbarretx]

Yeah me to!

Lets hang that b*stard! Oh wait? :banghead:

LMAO

[DaKCMan AP]

Don't forget that we traded a lot of our best picks away for proven talent.

The problem with your theory is that drafts are supposed to provide young talent that will be the foundation of your franchise.

Whether they panned out for a few years or not, part of the reason we are in the present state is trading draft picks for Dick Vermeil, Trent Green, Pat Surtain, Willie Roaf, etc. Only 4 players from DV's drafts will have a major role on this team in the future: JA, DJ, LJ and DQ.

[Hammock Parties]

Blame Herm.

What friggin' joke. Solari will never work in this league as an OC ever again.

[Hammock Parties]

you also have to worry about everyone and guys like Croyle and Bowe learning another new system.

There's nothing to worry about. We can't be much worse on offense.

[Reerun_KC]

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Solari has been plagued by a horrible OL. There isn't much any OC can do when you have such a poor OL, a struggling receiving corps and an immobile QB.

If Solari goes you have to not only replace 3 OL, get a few new receivers, etc., you also have to worry about everyone and guys like Croyle and Bowe learning another new system.


Your right you hit the nail on the head... Solari is damned if he does and damned if he dont. He is playing with what Carl and Herm gave him in players, He is calling plays from the offensive playbook that Herm has developed over the last 7 years.

The guy was setup for failure before he ever had a chance to succeed.

Feel for the guy...

[DaKCMan AP]

If Solari goes you have to not only replace 3 OL, get a few new receivers, etc., you also have to worry about everyone and guys like Croyle and Bowe learning another new system.

It really hurt Drew Brees to go to NO with a new coach and learn a new system. He struggled his first year. It's also hindered NE in their first year after completely rebuilding their WR corps (Moss, Stallworth, Welker). It's also hurt Dallas to bring in a new OC this year.

The key is finding someone who isn't going to install a system, but is going to design a system around the strengths and talents of the players.

[Reerun_KC]

What friggin' joke. Solari will never work in this league as an OC ever again.


Probably not, its a shame that a guy finally got his chance, under one of the most retarded coaches in the history of the NFL...

[Reerun_KC]

It really hurt Drew Brees to go to NO with a new coach and learn a new system. He struggled his first year. It's also hindered NE in their first year after completely rebuilding their WR corps (Moss, Stallworth, Welker). It's also hurt Dallas to bring in a new OC this year.

The key is finding someone who isn't going to install a system, but is going to design a system around the strengths and talents of the players.


:bravo:

That is why Herm will always be a square peg....

[DaKCMan AP]

That being said, its easier said than done. One can argue that the reason for improved defensive play is Donnie Edward, Boone, harris, and Ron Edwards, who were all free agents signed during Herm's time.


Sure, but we didn't sacrifice draft picks (young talent) to obtain the mentioned FA's.

[damaticous]

That article is from almost 2 years ago! Sheesh!

While I don't like the way solari has handled the offensive play calling, I don't think bringing up an article 2 years ago will help to lay blame to his play calling.

Blame Vermiel? huh? I would guess that Solari has learned a lot in 2 years.

So, say you screw up at work. do people blame your boss of 2 YEARS AGO!!!!?!?!?!?! No! I didn't think so.

[Hammock Parties]

Blame Vermiel? huh? I would guess that Solari has learned a lot in 2 years.


It's clear that Carl forced Solari on Herm. Carl forced Solari on Herm because Vermeil recommended the guy to him.

I guess we will see how Herm's next OC hire does. If the results are similar, we'll know who to blame I suppose.

[Reerun_KC]

It's clear that Carl forced Solari on Herm. Carl forced Solari on Herm because Vermeil recommended the guy to him.

I guess we will see how Herm's next OC hire does. If the results are similar, we'll know who to blame I suppose.


Lets see? Hum? Dick Curl?

[damaticous]

It's clear that Carl forced Solari on Herm. Carl forced Solari on Herm because Vermeil recommended the guy to him.

I guess we will see how Herm's next OC hire does. If the results are similar, we'll know who to blame I suppose.


It will be interesting. I hope that we get someone that isn't as bone headed as solari.

[Hammock Parties]

Lets see? Hum? Dick Curl?

Dick Curl won't be OC here. Relax.

[Sure-Oz]

I blame the shitty oline and the aging offense and lack of QB for the shit we see on the field. Also for gunderrrr haivng a LB playing a WR. Ditch the cover 2

[Hammock Parties]

not necessarily. Herm and Solari were college teamates. Personell connection.


No, that's exactly what happened. Solari wasn't Herm's hire. He agreed to do it Carl's way. Now that Carl's way failed, Herm's going to do it his way.

[bobbything]

FWIW, it was Herm's decision to throw out half the playbook to "simplify" the offense.

[FringeNC]

****ing hilarious that Solari is being blamed. Herm is the dipshit who ordered Solari to simplify the offense. This is Herm's offense, not Solari's, but I guess Herm has to throw someone under the bus.

[Sure-Oz]

the offense is just too complex is what turk told me, that is why sippio can't get on the field. I guess its real hard learning run run pass punt

[Zouk]

No, that's exactly what happened. Solari wasn't Herm's hire. He agreed to do it Carl's way. Now that Carl's way failed, Herm's going to do it his way.

I believe you when you say that Solari will be fired. A good scapegoat will surely be needed to keep the fans interested if they bring back Herm next year.

But what makes you so sure Solari wasn't Herm's choice? He was Herm's teammate at San Diego State and Herm wanted to interview him for OC in NY, but Solari didn't want to make the move.

I still maintain it's an extremely acute talent problem, and the play calling is designed based on the talent. I think most people are looking at the chicken and egg situation in the completely wrong way.

[HemiEd]

Why not, everything else is Vermeil's fault. What's he supposed to say? No, he isn't? Vermeil never said a negative thing about anybody in a press conference unless he was a kicker.

But that is the high road. Vermeil is the devil, havn't you heard?!

[ChiefsFan4Life]

It really hurt Drew Brees to go to NO with a new coach and learn a new system. He struggled his first year. It's also hindered NE in their first year after completely rebuilding their WR corps (Moss, Stallworth, Welker). It's also hurt Dallas to bring in a new OC this year.

The key is finding someone who isn't going to install a system, but is going to design a system around the strengths and talents of the players.

That is a beautiful f'n post - couldn't agree more

[Hammock Parties]

Herm wanted to interview him for OC in NY,


I don't remember this.

Anyway, you can believe what you want. But I feel the hiring of Solari was a clear attempt by Carl to preserve Dick's offense. It blew up in his face.

[HemiEd]

What are we going to do when we replace all these people, players, etc, and the offense is just a putrid next year as it is this year with a different OC?

I just ran an errand and heard them interviewing Herm on Sirius. ROFL I missed most of it, but they were talking about two time outs. I guess it was the week before they must have been talking about it. Anyway, HERM says he blames it on the REFS!!! They should have done their job better and not let him have the timeout!!! ROFL

[RustShack]

I blame the media

[kcxiv]

Herm has to fire Solari. He has to have a scapegoat. Something to ease the fan's collective minds.

Now..if CP leaves on his own will, that might save Solari his job, but I doubt that will happen.
I learned Herm wont blame himself. He never is wrong. Everyone else is, but he's always right. Someone other then him will take the blame. Bank on it.

[el borracho]

Carl's worst decision during his tenure was to bring in Dickie. Set this franchise back a decade, probably, when it is all said and done. But his buddy got to prove that he could build an offense as good as Martz did.
Yep. The Vermeil hire was the worst hire during Carl's tenure. It cost way too much to get him, resulted in no playoff success and left the team devoid of talent when he split. Vermeil was a disaster here.

[el borracho]

By the way, I'm guessing Carl, Herm and Solari are all back next year and everybody gets another chance with some new players (which is probably fair).

[Hammock Parties]

By the way, I'm guessing Carl, Herm and Solari are all back next year and everybody gets another chance with some new players (which is probably fair).

Solari is gone, dude. They are already discussing new OCs.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Why are people saying that HERM is going to fire Solari because he needs a scapegoat?

Isn't that Carl's call?

Especially considering that Carl all but forced Solari on Herm?

Some of you are really reaching here.....

[Chiefnj2]

Yep. The Vermeil hire was the worst hire during Carl's tenure. It cost way too much to get him, resulted in no playoff success and left the team devoid of talent when he split. Vermeil was a disaster here.

Gunther and the last 5 years of Marty were so much better.

[FAX]

I thought it was funny that, in his press conference, Herm took credit for calling the first play of last week's game. I don't remember the play, but I'm guessing it was successful.

He also took credit for calling the touchdown pass to JA.

FAX

[RustShack]

I remember when Herm was trying to get Solari to be the OC in NY. Solari passed it up to stay with the #1 offense and Dick in KC though. Herm had no problems hiring Solari because he already wanted him to be his OC before. I still wish we would have kept Saunders instead though, and left Solari as the line coach.

[Hammock Parties]

I thought it was funny that, in his press conference, Herm took credit for calling the first play of last week's game. I don't remember the play, but I'm guessing it was successful.

He also took credit for calling the touchdown pass to JA.

FAX

That was a little amusing, Mr. FAX. Herm will take credit for all the good stuff but doesn't want to take the blame for the bad. He will fire Solari over that.

[el borracho]

Gunther and the last 5 years of Marty were so much better.
Marty was Peterson's best hire. Gunther was not a great head coach but he really didn't damage the franchise. We would have been better served retaining Gunther (and our draft picks) than surrendering so much to hire Vermeil. They were both around .500 win/ loss in their time here, neither won any playoff games only Gunther didn't cost us our future.

[HemiEd]

I thought it was funny that, in his press conference, Herm took credit for calling the first play of last week's game. I don't remember the play, but I'm guessing it was successful.

He also took credit for calling the touchdown pass to JA.

FAX

But of course. And if they had failed, he wouldn't have known they were even in the playbook.

[Manila-Chief]

:bravo:

That is why Herm will always be a square peg....

Yes! Herm is conservative when it comes to offense. I doubt he will ever win a championship coz he is trying to run a program that is from decades ago. The best teams in the NFL have the ability to score points ... (which helps their defense).

Now, let me be fair. Herm/Mike have not had a quality OL to help their offense succeed. But, I feel Herm's philosophy is an added hindrance to Mike's calling a winning offensive game.

I've been supporting Solari all along coz I think Herm is imposing his philosophy on the play calling. But, after rereading the article and being reminded that he is or was not (he may be learning it???) an expert in the passing game ... maybe I need to rethink my support of him. In the DV system of offense, passing is one of your main weapons. Yeah, he runs a lot but with out the down the field passing game ... it would not be nearly as effective and that just maybe what is wrong with our running game this year. Therefore,if your OC is somehow connected to the past regime but has to depend upon another coach for passing ... how can he really call a great game? I'd still like to see Herm turn him loose and let him call his game ... then we would know if he has what it takes to be a good OC.... but, maybe not???

But, I agree ... it is not the OC who is the cause of our poor season. In fact I thought from the beginning we didn't have a chance this year and wanted them to be in the building mode. I read in the Star this A.M. that Herm is now mentioning building for the future. So, just maybe there is reason to continue following this team????

Someone mentioned ... DV was a mistake. It would be nice if life was a VCR tape that one could rewind and start the tape all over. We would all eliminate lots of mistakes. From the 2nd. year on I loved DV's offense ... but, if we could rewind the tape ... yep, it was a mistake for the following reason... we switched defense for offense and are now having to switch back ... so, it would have been better to have continued from the 90's. Not that we won anything back then, but at least the team would be further along on defense.

[el borracho]

Oh, please. Missing on a few draft picks is normal. Giving away your best picks and then missing on the rest is far more damaging.

[HemiEd]

Marty was Peterson's best hire. Gunther was not a great head coach but he really didn't damage the franchise. We would have been better served retaining Gunther (and our draft picks) than surrendering so much to hire Vermeil. They were both around .500 win/ loss in their time here, neither won any playoff games only Gunther didn't cost us our future.

Gunther was a train wreck IMO, and we weren't exactly tearing up the draft prior to DVs arrival.

2000 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
2 54 William Bartee CB Oklahoma
3 85 Greg Wesley SS Arkansas-Pine Bluff
4 115 Frank Moreau RB Louisville
5 153 Dante Hall RB Texas A&M
5 162 Pat Dennis CB Louisiana-Monroe
6 188 Darnell Alford T Boston College
7 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman
1999 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 14 John Tait T Brigham Young
2 54 Mike Cloud RB Boston College
3 75 Gary Stills LB West Virginia
3 84 Larry Atkins DB UCLA
4 108 Larry Parker WR USC
7 220 Eric King -- Richmond
1998 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 27 Victor Riley T Auburn
3 88 Rashaan Shehee RB Washington
4 120 Greg Favors ILB Mississippi State
5 128 Robert Williams DB North Carolina
6 181 Derrick Ransom DT Cincinnati
7 216 Eric Warfield DB Nebraska
7 224 Ernest Blackwell -- Missouri

[the Talking Can]

why not blame DV...why would anyone dare hold the ACTUAL HC responsible for anything...ever...

[bobbything]

http://redgdesign.com/HermTalking.jpg

[el borracho]

Gunther was a train wreck IMO, and we weren't exactly tearing up the draft prior to DVs arrival.
As a minimum, we were hitting on our first rounders before DV, many of which are still playing in the NFL. During DV's tenure we traded away and/ or missed on 3 of 5 first rounders and pretty much missed on all of the second rounders. That is much, much worse, IMO.

I'm off to work, but I'll get back to this later.

[HemiEd]

As a minimum, we were hitting on our first rounders before DV, many of which are still playing in the NFL. During DV's tenure we traded away and/ or missed on 3 of 5 first rounders and pretty much missed on all of the second rounders. That is much, much worse, IMO.

I'm off to work, but I'll get back to this later.

Victor Riley and Sly Morris? I guess we will never really know on Morris since he got hurt, but Riley was a total bust as a Chief IMO.

[BigRock]

Sadly, this isnt the first time Herm has fired an offensive coordinator failing to execute his offense.

He went through 3-4 in 6 years at the Jets...
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

[BigRock]

Also, I'd argue that the Vermeil draft classes weren't as bad as people like to claim. Don't forget that we traded a lot of our best picks away for proven talent.
Proven talent with only a few years left in their career. Who we gave up first-day draft picks for. Maybe that could be defended if we'd won something along the way, but we didn't.

And you cannot count LJ as a Vermeil draft success. He spent two years crying about Carl forcing that pick on him.

[Reerun_KC]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
Nope.. Never!

so oh wise one, how many did he go through?

[BigRock]

Nope.. Never!

so oh wise one, how many did he go through?
I could just tell you, but I feel I'd be robbing you of the opportunity to take advantage of this mighty tool called "the internet" in which you can find out this information for yourself and become a more informed, insightful poster in the process.

[HemiEd]

And you cannot count LJ as a Vermeil draft success. He spent two years crying about Carl forcing that pick on him.

Can we count Jared Allen? Just checking. How about Trent Green?

[BigRock]

Can we count Jared Allen? Just checking. How about Trent Green?
Well, let's see. Did Vermeil make it abundantly clear that he didn't want either of those players?

[Chiefnj2]

As a minimum, we were hitting on our first rounders before DV, many of which are still playing in the NFL. During DV's tenure we traded away and/ or missed on 3 of 5 first rounders and pretty much missed on all of the second rounders. That is much, much worse, IMO.

I'm off to work, but I'll get back to this later.

From '94- '98 weren't the first rounders Riley, Jenkins and Greg Hill? We all know the 2nd round failures as well.

[HemiEd]

Well, let's see. Did Vermeil make it abundantly clear that he didn't want either of those players?

I have a hard time keeping it straight, please forgive me. We all know Dick Vermeil didn't give a shit about the defense, just the offense. But he didn't want Lj, an offensive player, because he wanted to draft a defensive player in that spot.
Oh I know, he would have just screwed it up anyway, like he did with Jared Allen.

[Zouk]

But he didn't want Lj, an offensive player, because he wanted to draft a defensive player in that spot.
Oh I know, he would have just screwed it up anyway, like he did with Jared Allen.

Yeah. We could have had Tyler Brayton, the 8th defensive lineman in the Raiders rotation.

[Zouk]

Nope.. Never!

so oh wise one, how many did he go through?

He only fired 1 OC in 5 years, and that was Hackett after 4 years. His second OC was Heimerdinger who he never fired.

[Chiefs_5627]

Yeah. We could have had Tyler Brayton, the 8th defensive lineman in the Raiders rotation.



And if Vermeil got his way and drafted Brayton, would we even have taken Jared. Probably not.

[HemiEd]

And if Vermeil got his way and drafted Brayton, would we even have taken Jared. Probably not.

We should just go ahead and blame DV for that to. **** you DV you loser, wanting to draft Brayton and shit! :#

[BigRock]

I have a hard time keeping it straight, please forgive me. We all know Dick Vermeil didn't give a shit about the defense, just the offense. But he didn't want Lj, an offensive player, because he wanted to draft a defensive player in that spot.
Why is that so hard to keep straight? Vermeil wanted a defensive player in the first round. Just like he did the year before in '02.

Oh I know, he would have just screwed it up anyway
Nooooo. Why do you say that? Ryan Sims and Tyler Brayton, we'd have been set on the D-line for a decade.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=75048&stc=1

[Coach]

I'd really like to see what Solari is capable of doing w/o Herm "Hermcuffing" the offense.

[Hammock Parties]

2. He blames the previous coaching staff for the offensive decline. Cites offensive line drafting etc.

3. He blames the previous coaching staff for the poor defense. We are currently 21 against the rush.


I've soured on Herm, but when did he ever do this?

[Hammock Parties]

I think you're reading way too much into his comments.

[Easy 6]

One can only hope.

Aside from the playcalling, what I find unexcusable is the lack of adjustments being made (or made way too late) on the offensive line.

When Jared Allen was manhandling the Cinci LT, they benched him and rotated their guard to tackle. Oline play improved.

I just cant believe that Niswanger, Taylor, Rob smith, Capizii, and Stallings arent better than Turley, Terry, and Welbourn. Its foolish to put Turley, Terry, Welbourn back in the same situations and expect there to be a change in results.

I wholeheartedly agree, all of the talk about "giving young guys a chance" applied everywhere but OL.

"If you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got"...thats how i see it. At some point, you have to put some trust in unproven guys & give'em a chance.

Youthful strength & quickness can go a long way towards masking technique & scheme comprehension deficencies. It sure as hell couldnt get any worse.

[Dave Lane]

Carl's worst decision during his tenure was to bring in Dickie. Set this franchise back a decade, probably, when it is all said and done. But his buddy got to prove that he could build an offense as good as Martz did.

Your and idiot!

[TEX]

I remember when Herm was trying to get Solari to be the OC in NY. Solari passed it up to stay with the #1 offense and Dick in KC though. Herm had no problems hiring Solari because he already wanted him to be his OC before. I still wish we would have kept Saunders instead though, and left Solari as the line coach.

I agree, but I'm guessing Saunders had something to say about that. Though I got the feeling that Herm never wanted him b/c he didn't want to be looking over his shoulder. Plus, he said something to the effect that he didn't want someone for his staff who would always be considered for other staffs. That to me says a mouth full :hmmm:

[Fish]

As for the defense, he did that when he got here. I remember he said something about "not having probowlers" or "not having players."

As for the offense, as far as i know, he didnt specifically come out and say it but alluded to it. He has said that "that highflying offense is long gone" and not coming back, and it "wasnt the same offense" when he got here. Also remember him saying similar comments when both Roaf and shields retired at seperate times (something to the extent of "we dont have a roaf or will shields on this team"). That statement implies that they dont have the caliber of talent.

He has also touted how "succesful" his drafting has been because so many of the players have either made the roster or started, and he said that was not the case in the past (thus he equates making the roster/starting to being better which is not necessarily the case).

Most of that is true. I don't see the problem there...?

[DaneMcCloud]

It really hurt Drew Brees to go to NO with a new coach and learn a new system. He struggled his first year. It's also hindered NE in their first year after completely rebuilding their WR corps (Moss, Stallworth, Welker). It's also hurt Dallas to bring in a new OC this year.

The key is finding someone who isn't going to install a system, but is going to design a system around the strengths and talents of the players.

Brees already knew the system because Dallas and San Diego already ran a version of the Coryell system. Same terminology.

As far as WR's, you're talking about running routes. There are only so many routes to run. That's very different than a completely different blocking scheme that would need to be taught to the lineman, as well the "right" type of lineman to employ.

The Chiefs would be absolutely FOOLISH to abandon the Coryell system.

[DaneMcCloud]

Why not, everything else is Vermeil's fault. What's he supposed to say? No, he isn't? Vermeil never said a negative thing about anybody in a press conference unless he was a kicker. He went to the Tony LaRussa school of defending his people.

Or LJ.

[DaneMcCloud]

maybe if we did we would be in better shape (refrence randy moss, wes welker, pete kendall)

Pete Kendall sucks. And he's old at 34. That was another bad move by the Redskins. They may be giving up a 4th rounder for that clown.

[DaneMcCloud]

KC was scared that they would lose Solari (who they credited mistakenly with the success of the oline), and thought the only way to keep him from leaving was to promote him.

Give me a break. Mistakenly?

Solari had been with the Chiefs since 1997. He'd done an excellent job of keeping the Chiefs offensive line consistently good, if not great.

While he may not be a top offensive coordinator, I think his tenure as O-line coach in Kansas City was excellent.

[DaneMcCloud]

But that is the high road. Vermeil is the devil, havn't you heard?!

Yes, he is.

Thanks for the reminder.

[DaneMcCloud]

Victor Riley and Sly Morris? I guess we will never really know on Morris since he got hurt, but Riley was a total bust as a Chief IMO.

How was Riley a bust? He was a four year starter and played very well. Hell, the guy had to open up holes for Donnell Bennett, Bam Morris and T-Rich. He was a four year starter for the Chiefs and went on to be a three year starter for the Saints.

How in the world can he be viewed as a bust in any way, shape or form?

[Easy 6]

Give me a break. Mistakenly?

Solari had been with the Chiefs since 1997. He'd done an excellent job of keeping the Chiefs offensive line consistently good, if not great.

While he may not be a top offensive coordinator, I think his tenure as O-line coach in Kansas City was excellent.

I used to feel exactly that way, but i've come to the conclusion that Roaf, Shields & younger versions of the rest are what made Solari look good.

It seems to happen to every coach, they're a "genius" with top talent but look terribly average when the Pro Bowlers & Hall of Famers are gone.

IMO, if he was as good as his history would indicate...he'd have known that Welbourn is done, Terry sucks etc. & he would have had the 2nd string guys ready to move in...if they cant do that, then why did he draft them??? I also have to question why he hasnt shaken up the starters more than he has.

[Easy 6]

John Matsko's doddering old ass needs to retire as well, he's the one most directly responsible for this unit.

[DaneMcCloud]

He also thought this offensive line was capable, which it clearly is not.

IMO, the credit for the success of the Oline goes to:
Willie Roaf
Will Shields
Wiegmann --->in his prime
Waters--->good convertion in his prime

Whatever.

So the Chiefs went 13-3 in 1997 in spite Jeff Criswell, Ricky Siglar, Dave Szott, Tim Grunhard, Jeff Smith and Glenn Parker? How about players like John Tait, Victor Riley, Jeff Blackledge, Will Shields, Brian Waters and Marcus Spears?

It seems to me that most NFL writers have always declared the Chiefs offensive line among the elite units in the NFL for more than a decade.

Give the man his just due.

[Easy 6]

Whatever.

So the Chiefs went 13-3 in 1997 in spite Jeff Criswell, Ricky Siglar, Dave Szott, Tim Grunhard, Jeff Smith and Glenn Parker? How about players like John Tait, Victor Riley, Jeff Blackledge, Will Shields, Brian Waters and Marcus Spears?

It seems to me that most NFL writers have always declared the Chiefs offensive line among the elite units in the NFL for more than a decade.

Give the man his just due.

How do you explain whats happened to this line Dane???

Nobody expected a return to greatness this year, but its an unmitigated disaster..so bad in fact, that even Bob Gretz is bashing them. Solari needs his due for the bad as well.

[Deberg_1990]

I wont take away anything that Solari has done in the past.

But i do believe its time for some new blood to shake things up.

I hope the whole organization gets shaken up this offseason.

[DaneMcCloud]

How do you explain whats happened to this line Dane???

Nobody expected a return to greatness this year, but its an unmitigated disaster..so bad in fact, that even Bob Gretz is bashing them. Solari needs his due for the bad as well.

Well, let's start with the talent. The Chiefs began the season with all five starting offensive lineman over the age of 30. I don't think that anyone (including the fans, coaches or front office) expected all of them to hit the wall. They all look spent. All at once.

Secondly, Solari is no longer the offensive line coach. Under Solari, the offensive line had been solid, if not spectacular for the better part of a decade. But age caught up with this line. And while Niswanger appears to be a good backup (if not a solid future starter), he's out for the season and the backups just aren't ready for primetime.

Is Matsko equal to Solari? It doesn't appear so. I'm sure that the offensive line will be addressed and will be solid next year.

But youth is needed. And IMO, only one opening day starter from 2007 should start on opening day in 2008 (Waters). And that's only if HE hasn't hit "the wall". The rest would more than likely, be out of football (with the exception of D-Mac, who is nothing more than a backup at this stage of his career).

[Easy 6]

Well, let's start with the talent. The Chiefs began the season with all five starting offensive lineman over the age of 30. I don't think that anyone (including the fans, coaches or front office) expected all of them to hit the wall. They all look spent. All at once.

Secondly, Solari is no longer the offensive line coach. Under Solari, the offensive line had been solid, if not spectacular for the better part of a decade. But age caught up with this line. And while Niswanger appears to be a good backup (if not a solid future starter), he's out for the season and the backups just aren't ready for primetime.

Is Matsko equal to Solari? It doesn't appear so. I'm sure that the offensive line will be addressed and will be solid next year.

But youth is needed. And IMO, only one opening day starter from 2007 should start on opening day in 2008 (Waters). And that's only if HE hasn't hit "the wall". The rest would more than likely, be out of football (with the exception of D-Mac, who is nothing more than a backup at this stage of his career).

Its definitely true that the line has been largely ignored in the draft of late, free agency as well (McIntosh doesnt count, you get what you pay for at LT)...but we do have a few guys with possible talent that havent even gotten a look, Niswanger got a shot, but it was far too late IMO.

I just dont see what could be wrong with a major right side shakeup at this point, theres nothing to lose & just maybe, something to gain. But he persists in putting guys like Turley, Terry & Welbourn out there...it doesnt make any sense.

I'm not one of those "All or Nothing" guys, it cant all be pinned on Solari...but he's gotta be part of the problem IMO.

[el borracho]

Victor Riley and Sly Morris? I guess we will never really know on Morris since he got hurt, but Riley was a total bust as a Chief IMO.
Whoa! I disagree. Riley was great for us while he was here and successful for a few years after he left us. Morris was breaking rookie WR records for us before he got hurt.

[el borracho]

Proven talent with only a few years left in their career. Who we gave up first-day draft picks for. Maybe that could be defended if we'd won something along the way, but we didn't.
Exactly. We sacrificed the future to win it all but we didn't even come close to winning it all. Zero playoff wins and no young talent indicates some serious mismanagement.

[el borracho]

Can we count Jared Allen? Just checking. How about Trent Green?
Trent Green? Trent Green got us nothing. We would have been better off signing Collins (a free-agent that year) and drafting Deuce McAllister that year. Deuce is still playing at a high level. Green is out of football. In fact, we could have had Green for nothing if we had simply waited a year- his contract with the Rams was almost up, IIRC, and his first year here was an abysmal waste. That is some serious mismanagement and it is attributable to Vermeil.

[el borracho]

From '94- '98 weren't the first rounders Riley, Jenkins and Greg Hill? We all know the 2nd round failures as well.
94 Hill
95 Jenkins
96 Woods
97 Gonzalez
98 Riley
99 Tait
00 Morris

Jenkins was the only turd of that group.

By the way, our 2nd rounders weren't always so bad; some notables include Okoye, Grunhard and Valerio.

[Coach]

Trent Green? Trent Green got us nothing. We would have been better off signing Collins (a free-agent that year) and drafting Deuce McAllister that year. Deuce is still playing at a high level. Green is out of football. In fact, we could have had Green for nothing if we had simply waited a year- his contract with the Rams was almost up, IIRC, and his first year here was an abysmal waste. That is some serious mismanagement and it is attributable to Vermeil.

While his first year was a abysmal waste, Green has performed far better than Elvis Girlbac could ever do as his time as a Chief.

As for Solari, all this talk about "Herm not being allowed to do what he wants."

Garbage...

You telling me that Carl Peterson Ran Terry Shea and Trent Green out of town? It could be possible, but, Herm can say the offensive guys aren't on the same page, but here's reality: No OC will ever be on the same page as Herm. Herm wants teams to play UP TO or DOWN TO the competition for 3 quarters and HOPE the ball bounces their way late. Most offensive players just want to perform at their top.

His Offensive philosophy is tantamount to a DC saying that his team should allow TD's and yards if the offense is scoring, so we can keep the score close and win at the end. It defies common sense.

[Coach]

I should also point out that, 2 years and you're fired. That's Herm's record with OC's.

Of course, I'm sure it's just that they've all been terrible though, and has nothing to do with Herm. :rolleyes:

[Zouk]

I should also point out that, 2 years and you're fired. That's Herm's record with OC's.

Of course, I'm sure it's just that they've all been terrible though, and has nothing to do with Herm. :rolleyes:

He's fired 1 offensive coordinator in his entire career, and that was Paul Hackett and that was after 4 years.

[el borracho]

While his first year was a abysmal waste, Green has performed far better than Elvis Girlbac could ever do as his time as a Chief.
What are you talking about? I said we could have signed Collins in free-agency and gotten Green for free the next year. Where did I say anything about Grbac?

Seems I'm not the only one drinking tonight.

[el borracho]

He's fired 1 offensive coordinator in his entire career, and that was Paul Hackett and that was after 4 years.
Yeah, but Carl did draft Blackledge so you can't trust anyone.

[HemiEd]

Trent Green? Trent Green got us nothing. We would have been better off signing Collins (a free-agent that year) and drafting Deuce McAllister that year. Deuce is still playing at a high level. Green is out of football. In fact, we could have had Green for nothing if we had simply waited a year- his contract with the Rams was almost up, IIRC, and his first year here was an abysmal waste. That is some serious mismanagement and it is attributable to Vermeil.

Ok, if Trent got us nothing, using that same logic, no player since 1971 has gotten us anything.



94 Hill
95 Jenkins
96 Woods
97 Gonzalez
98 Riley
99 Tait
00 Morris

Jenkins was the only turd of that group.

By the way, our 2nd rounders weren't always so bad; some notables include Okoye, Grunhard and Valerio.
You don't think Riley and Morris were turds?