Boy Scouts Held Up At Gunpoint While Selling Christmas Trees

[HemiEd]

link (http://www.wcpo.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=f212c3c9-eb30-4173-b6ce-b19485f76688)

Reported by: Lynn Giroud
Last Update: 12/04 11:20 am




It's unimaginable – a couple of Boy Scouts and their dads out selling Christmas trees for $25 each – ripped off by three guys armed with a sawed-off shotgun.

It happened around 9 p.m. Monday night at 1906 West Galbraith Road, near Betts Avenue in North College Hill, just as they were getting ready to shut down for the night.

9News spoke with one of the boys and his father.

"At first I thought it was just a joke, but then I saw the gun and I was terrified," said John Hancock, Jr., of Boy Scout Troop 393.

"And when I saw the gun –and this guy punched me right here [pointing to his left cheek] – and it knocked me down," he said. "I wasn't unconscious or anything, but it was freaky. This was my first time being in an actual robbery."

And he is all of 13-years of age. The boys are with Boy Scout Troop 393 of St. Margaret Mary Church.

They say three men appeared out of nowhere, pointed the gun at the men, then turned and pointed the gun at the two boys.

That's when one father tried to grab the gunman.

They exchanged a few blows, then the three men grabbed the money and ran off.

The father jumped in a car and tried to follow the three suspects.

Police were there within minutes, but the thieves got away.

They made off with $350.

"It's one thing for your own safety, but when somebody has a sawed-off shotgun pointed at your own son, the first thing you think of is to protect your child, so I went after them," said the boy's father, John Hancock, Sr.

"I got within three-feet of that shotgun and I thought for sure I was dead," said Hancock, "but he wasn't gonna get my kid."

The boy scouts told 9News that this is their biggest fundraiser of the year, and they plan to be back here tomorrow night.


If you have any information about this crime, please call Crime Stoppers at (513) 352-3040 or text (513) 352-3050. You don't have to give your name and you may be eligible for a reward if your tips lead to an arrest.



Copyright 2007 The E.W. Scripps Co. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed


Sorry if repost, I hadn't seen it.

[Hammock Parties]

Always be prepared.

[Eleazar]

In before the 'he should have had a dog and a gun' posts :p

[Phobia]

What kind of badge do you get for that?

[Eleazar]

What kind of badge do you get for that?

Survival?

[HemiEd]

It is all clearing up now, this was in Cincinatti! Probably some of the Bengals that aren't already locked up. Those boys should have been prepared.

[Kerberos]

link (http://www.wcpo.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=f212c3c9-eb30-4173-b6ce-b19485f76688) They made off with $350.

WTF???

Ripping off BOY SCOUTS and all for $350?

:shake:

Crack Heads on the loose.

How Despicable.

[JohninGpt]

WTF???

Ripping off BOY SCOUTS and all for $350?

:shake:

Crack Heads on the loose.

How Despicable.
I hope there is an extra special place in Hell for people who mess with kids.

[dj56dt58]

why didn't they take the gun away and give them all a round house kick to the back of the head? What the hell are they teaching in boy scouts anyway?

[Duck Dog]

Conceal and carry could have prevented the three crack heads from doing this again.

[StcChief]

Conceal and carry could have prevented the three crack heads from doing this again.
yep.

[kcchiefsus]

Considering the boys said they would be back at the same place the next night, how hilarious would it be if the robbers saw that and held them up again?

[Phobia]

I'm guessing the publicity from the loss of $350 is probably worth tens of thousands. They should probably order more trees.

[FAX]

Probably the Shriners.

FAX

[Bwana]

It sounds like the Raider fans are out a little early this year.

[mikey23545]

Thank God they weren't tazed....One of them might have been hurt.

[Radar Chief]

you wont be able to conceal/carry a shotgun or rifle.

Wouldn’t need one.

So as you reach for your properly holsterd handgun*

Tell him the moneys in your wallet.

the enemies standing within 6 feet of you kills you and 3 other people with 1 blast, leaving 1 round remaining in the chamber and 2 other adult enemy ready for physical combat.


I take it you know nothing about shotguns other than what you’ve read?
“four people with one blast”. :rolleyes:


stupid move.

Situation dependent.

[size=1]*properly holsterd handgun will be loaded, but w/0 a bullet in the chamber.

I’d carry my .45 ACP with one in the pipe, cocked and locked, carry it around all day long without fear of it ever going off by itself.
My next CC weapon is going to be a revolver, six shooter with five rounds and the hammer resting on an empty chamber.

[HemiEd]

Scouts receive support after theft link (http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071205/NEWS01/712050354)

WCPO.com



Support has been pouring in from across the tri-state for a Boy Scout troop after several members were robbed Monday night while selling Christmas trees.

Jack Donaldson can't stop thinking about the sawed-off shotgun pointed at his face.

He and his 10-year-old son Jackson, along with another father and son, were closing up their tree stand in North College Hill when three men appeared and demanded money.

"As he pulled out and cocked that shotgun and aimed it toward us, one guy sucker-punched me and another guy sucker-punched John (Scout John Hancock, 13) ," said Jack Donaldson who was robbed at gunpoint. "It was a mess for a few minutes."

The robbers got away with $350.

By Tuesday morning, donations started pouring in for Boy Scout Troop 393, which is sponsored by St. Margaret Mary Church in North College Hill.

At the office of the Dan Beard Council of the Boy Scouts of America, a man came in with a handful of cash.

"He reached in his pocket and pulled out his own personal resources to fill up what the troop lost last night," a council employee.

It was similar sight at the tree stand on West Galbraith road.

Some dropped off cash without even buying a tree.

"I heard about this on the news and I felt bad for these people - especially the young kids - so I thought I would stop in and give a little donation," said Kip Moehr, of Mount Healthy.

Troop leaders, who were out selling trees Tuesday night, said they hope to show the Scouts how something positive can come from something so horrible.

"I said, 'We can't walk away from this. We can't let the kids see that this is going to stop us, because that's what scouting is.' It should be a positive experience," said Dan Meale, the troop's assistant scout master.

"So, we have to turn this negative into a positive if nothing else."

Donations have also been coming in from businesses for the troop. Turner Construction, Talley Electronics, Amrein Diamonds, Schott Monument, JMA Consultants, the Indian Hill Rangers and attorney Stan Chesley have all made contributions.

North College Hill police said they are dedicating more patrols, in uniform and undercover, to the area around the tree lot.

Anyone with information about the crime should call Crime Stoppers at (513) 352-3040 or text (513) 352-3050

[stumppy]

Conceal and carry could have prevented the three crack heads from doing this again.

IMO
In this situation anything other than just giving them the money would increase the chance of getting one of your children killed by about 10 fold.

If there were no kids present it's completely different situation.

[HemiEd]

IMO
In this situation anything other than just giving them the money would increase the chance of getting one of your children killed by about 10 fold.

If there were no kids present it's completely different situation.

No kidding, **** the money, these kids don't need to be put in jeopardy.

[Radar Chief]

No kidding, **** the money, these kids don't need to be put in jeopardy.

As long as you have faith that they’re only after the money, then I won’t disagree. Personally, I wouldn’t have that faith.

[Phobia]

Scouts receive support after theft link (http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071205/NEWS01/712050354)


Heh. It's almost like I predicted it.

[HemiEd]

Heh. It's almost like I predicted it.

You sure did!

I predict this story continues to develop, especially when they report what they know about the robbers.

[vailpass]

Frigging *******

[stumppy]

As long as you have faith that they’re only after the money, then I won’t disagree. Personally, I wouldn’t have that faith.

So you would initiate the gunfire ? With children in the immediate vicinity ?
Wow, just wow.

[Radar Chief]

you would be dead before you could reach for your gun. Trying that stunt with a loaded shotgun pointed at you with a finger on the trigger is plain stupid. Time it if you dont believe me. How many seconds do you think it would take for you to whip out your gun and fire? Guaranteed it will be longer than someone to pull a trigger. your dead. game over.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/images/shotgunpace1.jpg

Did you read the story? One of the fathers grabbed the shotgun and fought with them. Oddly, he didn’t get shot. Why is that?

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/images/shotgunpace1.jpg

Visit www.alpharrubicaon.com Best in Preparedness Information (Pirating Pictures is Stealing)

Just FYI, but I don’t think they care for your hot linking photos from their site.

did you see the blast radius from the link i posted? you are welcome to look at other data from other sites. Although shotgun pellets individually dont have much weight/stopping power, at close proximity they would be going 1600fps (thats high powered rifle speed) and at 6ft distance, it could have a blast radius of 6ft. At close proximity it could easily kill 1 adult and those 3 kids...in 1 blast. though you are going to play hero and take that chance.

here is what a hero looks like against a shotgun blast.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3774/headexplode7lm.jpg

No I didn’t, but why would I. I’ve been hunting, I’m guessing, longer than you’ve been alive and I already know that a shotguns “blast radius” at 6 ft is going to be about the size of a golf ball. You’re not telling, or showing, me anything I don’t already know, probably, better than you. It’s highly unlikely to impossible that a shotgun is going to kill 4 people with one shot. Unless, maybe, it’s shooting a slug and all four are perfectly lined up. Even then I’d doubt it since the projectile will loose so much energy going through the first target it probably wouldn’t have enough go through the second, nevermind the third and fourth.
And just FYI again, but 1600 fps is just barely faster than a .22 at 1260 fps. And no one is going to call a .22 a “high powered rifle”. Most “high powered rifles” live above the 2000 fps range.

*edit* Thats .22 Long Rifle. .22 Magnums shoot a bit faster than that.

[Radar Chief]

One other thing Radar CHief,
your going to be smart and tell the enemy that the money is in your wallet. From the sounds of things it was a well scouted operation. They came after the last customers left (thus maximum money to steal), and came with overwhelming force. They probably knew exactly where the money is by watching customers make tree purchases.

Also, I'm glad carrying a fully loaded .45 handgun around with you makes you feel safe and compensated for your inadequacies, but carrying such a weapon comes with responsibilties. The most important responsibility would be making good/sound decisions with that fire-arm. From your earlier posts it appears to me that you would be better served leaving that weapon in a gun safe and wearing a concealable light armor vest instead.

IF you do decide to continue carrying your weapon, I would like to remind you that its best to:
1. have regular target practice
2. keep your firearm clean
3. never show it unless you are prepared to use it. (i.e. kill someone)


“Inadequacies”? Wow, the demagogues are just full of projection today. ROFL

i wish you saftey.

And peace be with you even if you feel you have to depend on others for your defense. For some people that's probably a wise choice. ;)

[Radar Chief]

So you would initiate the gunfire ? With children in the immediate vicinity ?
Wow, just wow.

:spock: Uh, the “gunfire” was initiated by the criminals carrying a shotgun, but to me you say “wow”? Amazing. :shake:

It’s not like I’d want to kill a man in front of my son, watching a man die is a hard thing to reconcile with for an adult much less a child, but I would before I’d let him kill my son or me.
Are we really such a subjugated society that no one even wants to defend themselves, their family, anymore? That’s where the whole “wow” thing should be directed.

[Chiefnj2]

Playing Charles Bronson with somebody elses kids isn't smart.

[HemiEd]

No shots were fired. The enemy brandished a weapon and istigated armed robbery, but they did not initiate gunfire.

You, on the otherhand, advocated initiating gunfire in the presence and close proximity of minors. That is stupid. If anyone else agrees with me, please speak up. If nothing else, this might save the lives of people around radar chief if he is in such a situation.

I think it is misunderstanding on everyone's part. I don't think Radar intended to initiate gunfire at all. If the perpetrators initiated fire, then no holes barred, kill the ****ers if you can.

Personally, with youngsters around, I thought the guy trying to chase them down was in the wrong.

Several years back, a similar incident I was somewhat close to, resulted in multiple deaths.

I prefer to let the professionals handle it, that is what we pay them for.

[Radar Chief]

at the time that he grabbed the shotgun, it would be very difficult to get shot, but not impossible. He was then knocked to the ground, and no longer had any control/possesion of the weapon. At that point the "father" could have easily been killed. The fact that he wasnt makes me think the enemy didnt want to kill anyone. he still took a foolish risk.

Right. He had all that time and didn’t get shot, but would’ve been shot instantly had he pulled his own gat. Please try to keep track of your own spin.

probably, but i had to do that for you since you dont click links. Once can only reason with somepeople under the simplest of ways....in this case that would be pictures.

Well, I hope you did so for self education because all you’ve done otherwise is waste bandwidth. I’ve probably forgotten more about guns than you currently know.

its really as simple as this:
force= mass x acceleration

the "power" in a high powered rifle is not neccesarily in the velocity that it is sending an object...its the total "force" that puts out. A high powered .22 rifle has more "force" than a .22 handgun or regular rifle because it increases the velocity and thus the total force.

A shotgun puts out a greater "mass" than a rifle, and at still a high velocity at a close proximity. Thus it puts out a great force or "power."

I’m glad you remember your highschool physics lessons, but none of that changes the fact that a .22 LR is not a “high powered rifle”.

[Radar Chief]

No shots were fired. The enemy brandished a weapon and istigated armed robbery, but they did not initiate gunfire.

Funny, earlier in the topic, you posted this.

IF you do decide to continue carrying your weapon, I would like to remind you that its best to:
1. have regular target practice
2. keep your firearm clean
3. never show it unless you are prepared to use it. (i.e. kill someone)

The criminals already “showed” their gun. Why, knowing you realize this, would you then assume they do not intend to kill you? Does this logic only work one way?

You, on the otherhand, advocated initiating gunfire in the presence and close proximity of minors. That is stupid. If anyone else agrees with me, please speak up. If nothing else, this might save the lives of people around radar chief if he is in such a situation.

My family and friends would highly prefer my company to yours, give your desire to be victimized, and would argue that they are much safer for it.

[Radar Chief]

Playing Charles Bronson with somebody elses kids isn't smart.

Right. That’s why I would be willing to, given the right situation, defend them from the criminals playing tuff guy, or “Charles Bronson” as you put it.
If you prefer to be a victim, that’s your choice.

[Radar Chief]

I think it is misunderstanding on everyone's part. I don't think Radar intended to initiate gunfire at all. If the perpetrators initiated fire, then no holes barred, kill the ****ers if you can.

Personally, with youngsters around, I thought the guy trying to chase them down was in the wrong.

Several years back, a similar incident I was somewhat close to, resulted in multiple deaths.

I prefer to let the professionals handle it, that is what we pay them for.

It’s human nature that it’s easier to project intent and reply with sarcastic overgeneralizations than to expend energy actually considering the facts of any given case. I don’t necessarily blame them for it.
Leaving it to professionals is probably a good thing for many people. The proper use of firearms isn’t nearly as easy as Hollywood would have the uninformed believe. It’s not as simple as point & click. It takes skill and practice.
Not that this applies to you, Ed, but the general public.

I also agree that running after them was stupid. He basically just left those kids uncovered.

[Radar Chief]

Here is advice from "experts" on how to survive an armed robbery. Most of the below links are from goverment and law enforcement sites, but you are welcome to search for your own.

http://www.police.qld.gov.au/Regional+Policing/metroNorth/robbery/threat.htm
http://www.co-asn-rob.org/CrimeInfo/RobberyTips/during.htm
http://www.ci.madison.wi.us/POLICE/armedrob.html
http://prevention-commerce.com/pcevq.asp
http://louisville.edu/admin/dps/safety/robbery_prevention.htm

you can see for yourself if they line up with what the "father" did in this boyscout scenario, and if it lines up in what radar chief advocates.

In other words be content with being a victim.
I’m glad you’re good with assuming anyone pointing a gun at you doesn’t intend to kill you but I don’t have as much faith in others intentions.

[HemiEd]

Please don't post that kind of photo anymore, in fact please remove it. I don't want to put you on iggy.

[JohninGpt]

here is a hotlinked photo of a person who committed suicide via shotgun that was closer than 6ft. The damage looks bigger than a golf ball to me.
Dammit, I was eating! A little warning next time please?

BTW, anyone want a slice of cherry pie?

[Radar Chief]

here is a hotlinked photo of a person who committed suicide via shotgun that was closer than 6ft. The damage looks bigger than a golf ball to me.

http://www.petdance.com/actionpark/bigblack/discography/pix/shotgun-suicide-1.jpg
http://www.petdance.com/actionpark/bigblack/discography/pix/shotgun-suicide-2.jpg

Ok, you’re just going to have to come down here and shoot some paper targets at various ranges with me in order to understand this, but to put it simpley “blast radius” does not = damage. And what you think you can tell of the blast radius from the damage presented in those photo’s, I don’t know. :shrug:
Generally though, once the shot leaves the barrel the pattern, or “blast radius” as you put it, begins to spread out. At a range of 6 ft, basically considered “point blank”, the pattern isn’t going to have enough time to spread out much wider than the barrel it just left.
For hunting purposes, you want a pattern about the size of a basketball at the range you’re shooting, thus the different “chokes” of “full”, “modified” and “improved cylinder”. A “choke” being the pinched down area at the end of a shotgun barrel. A full choke will hold a tighter pattern for longer distances than a “modified choke” and “improved cylinder”; particularly the later since an “improved cylinder” is basically a straight bore, no “pinched down area”.
A “sawed off” shotgun will have removed any choke, if it was once there.
I’m here to help inform. :thumb:

[Radar Chief]

agree blast radius doesnt equal damage.

yes, i think you should shoot some paper targets at 6ft and take a look, it will be obliterated.

It’ll knock a hole about the size of a golf ball in the center, well if I’m shooting it’ll be in the center. If you’re going to do the shooting, we may want to put you inside a barn just to ensure you can hit one of the walls. ;)

[stumppy]

:spock: Uh, the “gunfire” was initiated by the criminals carrying a shotgun, but to me you say “wow”? Amazing. :shake:

It’s not like I’d want to kill a man in front of my son, watching a man die is a hard thing to reconcile with for an adult much less a child, but I would before I’d let him kill my son or me.
Are we really such a subjugated society that no one even wants to defend themselves, their family, anymore? That’s where the whole “wow” thing should be directed.

:spock: Uh, no, there was no "gunfire" initiated by anyone. Hopefully you understand that gunfire means that the "gun" was "fired". Not that the gun was brandished, waved around, used to beat someone, or pointed at someone.
If my kids weren't around it would be a different situation. But with children there the smart thing to do is do everything possible to make sure there is no gunfire.

[Radar Chief]

:spock: Uh, no, there was no "gunfire" initiated by anyone. Hopefully you understand that gunfire means that the "gun" was "fired". Not that the gun was brandished, waved around, used to beat someone, or pointed at someone.

Everything starts with them pulling their gun. That my reaction to their action might, depending on the situation, include gunfire doesn’t change the fact that they initiated the entire incident.

If my kids weren't around it would be a different situation. But with children there the smart thing to do is do everything possible to make sure there is no gunfire.

Had you posted, “keep the children safe”, I’d agree with you. But since you’re talking about leaving that decision up to the criminals, you have absolutely no way of ensuring anything particularly whether or not there is gunfire.

[stumppy]

Had you posted, “keep the children safe”, I’d agree with you. But since you’re talking about leaving that decision up to the criminals, you have absolutely no way of ensuring anything particularly whether or not there is gunfire.

But you guarentee gunfire when you pull your gun and fire.

[Radar Chief]

prove it. you have the entire internet at your disposal, prove it. Or go out in the field and do the experiment and document it and post it.

I've posted links, pictures, graphs....and it doesnt change your viewpoint. Fine. In the same manner, your not going to change mine (and many others on this site) until you are able to post some data. prove it.

If I have the time, and feel so inclined, I’ll think about doing this test and posting pictures.
Since I have a few decades of experience with guns on my side, and you’re working off pictures that don’t show what you’re claiming, I’m really not too concerned with whether you believe it or not. In fact don’t believe it. Come down to C-Town and I’ll show it to you. Shotgun shells aren’t that expensive and I’ve got friends with lots of land around the area we can go shoot.
You never know, you might get a kick out of it once you try it.

[Radar Chief]

But you guarentee gunfire when you pull your gun and fire.

Right, the choice would be mine not the criminals.

[Demonpenz]

empty words. thats all you got.

if you want to make a wager to settle this and make it worth our time, PM me and we can put some money in joint escrow. If not, this argument is over (at least on my side).


wow great post. rep

[Radar Chief]

empty words. thats all you got.

if you want to make a wager to settle this and make it worth our time, PM me and we can put some money in joint escrow. If not, this argument is over (at least on my side).

Empty words? I’m offering you a chance to do something you probably never would otherwise. Take it or don’t. Doesn’t matter that much to me.

[Dartgod]

empty words. thats all you got.

if you want to make a wager to settle this and make it worth our time, PM me and we can put some money in joint escrow. If not, this argument is over (at least on my side).
So if he decides not to wager on it, it's the same as admitting defeat?

ROFL

Your and idiot...

[FAX]

Can't we shoot a cat instead?

FAX

[dtebbe]

This makes me think of my son's best friend who is in cub scouts. He "earned" a pocket knife (however you do that) at scouts, much to his mom's dismay. Well, dad overruled, and said his son demonstrated he was responsible enough to have a pocket knife.

Fast forward a week, and he decides it would be a good idea to carve his name in the kitchen table with said pocket knife. From what I understand it is still painful for him to sit.

I think 2nd grade may be a **tad** early for a pocket knife.

DT

[FAX]

This makes me think of my son's best friend who is in cub scouts. He "earned" a pocket knife (however you do that) at scouts, much to his mom's dismay. Well, dad overruled, and said his son demonstrated he was responsible enough to have a pocket knife.

Fast forward a week, and he decides it would be a good idea to carve his name in the kitchen table with said pocket knife. From what I understand it is still painful for him to sit.

I think 2nd grade may be a **tad** early for a pocket knife.

DT

Not to worry. It could be a good sign. George Washington carved his initials in the ass of the family's best goat when he was just a tyke.

FAX

[JohninGpt]

Not to worry. It could be a good sign. George Washington carved his initials in the ass of the family's best goat when he was just a tyke.

FAX
..and admitted to it, before chopping down the cherry tree and then killing the family cat on some stupid bet.

[HemiEd]

Here is a video of the interview with one of the fathers.

news story with video (http://www.newsnet5.com/news/14768582/detail.html)

[Radar Chief]

But here, since you don’t believe anything not posted on the internet.



http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/spatc.jpg

Contact shotgun entrance hole.
A hole like the one above will be processed chemically like that previously described on the Distance Determination/Gunshot Residue pages.
At ranges of around 5-10 feet* the shot and wadding mass will produce a single large hole in a target. If the target happens to be a person, the wadding material will be blown into the wound tract with the pellets.


http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/990900135.jpg

The close-range entrance (less than 5 feet*)hole seen above is almost square, and is a common shape for this range. You might notice a pinkish color (lead residue) to the material around the hole.
At distances greater than 5-10 feet* the shot mass starts to break up. Fliers (individual pellet holes) will start to appear around the edge of an entrance hole and the wadding may or may not enter the victim.

http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/99080132.jpg

As the wadding slows down it will start to take a separate trajectory from that of the shot and can actually leave abrasions or bruises to the area around an entrance wound. Wadding will lose its energy and fall harmlessly to the ground at distances of around 20 feet*.
As the pellets get further and further away from the shotgun the pattern will eventually become dispersed to the point that only individual pellet holes are present in a target.

http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/spat28.jpg

Firearm examiners will try to reproduce the pattern by firing into witness panels at known distances. Shot patterns can be affected by the load, pellet size, wad type, and choke of the shotgun. That is why it is essential that the shotgun is recovered and the type of shotshells used is known. Hopefully some shotshells will be recovered at the scene that can later be used in firing the distance standards. Also, patterns produced by a shotgun at any given distance can vary slightly. Multiple tests patterns will be fired at known distances and compared directly to the pattern in question. Based on this comparison a minimum and maximum firing distance can be determined.
Unlike the tests conducted on clothing for gunshot residues, shotgun pattern testing is not limited to distances of a few feet or less.
*All distances are approximate values and can vary depending on the shotgun's gauge/choke and ammunition used.

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distshotpatt.htm

Notice that up to about 10 ft. the hole grows to about the size of a golf ball? Now, you and your “empty words” can kiss my ass. 4321

[FAX]

Man. That's a cat's worst nightmare, right there.

FAX

[Radar Chief]

Can't we shoot a cat instead?

FAX

Got a particular one in mind? :evil:

[go bo]

One other thing Radar CHief,
your going to be smart and tell the enemy that the money is in your wallet. From the sounds of things it was a well scouted operation. They came after the last customers left (thus maximum money to steal), and came with overwhelming force. They probably knew exactly where the money is by watching customers make tree purchases.

Also, I'm glad carrying a fully loaded .45 handgun around with you makes you feel safe and compensated for your inadequacies, but carrying such a weapon comes with responsibilties. The most important responsibility would be making good/sound decisions with that fire-arm. From your earlier posts it appears to me that you would be better served leaving that weapon in a gun safe and wearing a concealable light armor vest instead.

IF you do decide to continue carrying your weapon, I would like to remind you that its best to:
1. have regular target practice
2. keep your firearm clean
3. never show it unless you are prepared to use it. (i.e. kill someone)

i wish you saftey.inadequacies?

what? you think he needs a bigger gun with a really long barrel?

is this some kind of short penis joke?

[kstater]

Can't we shoot a cat instead?

FAX


Shot a crow this morning, will that suffice?
I haven't seen any strays recently, but will keep an eye out for you.

[go bo]

you would be dead before you could reach for your gun. Trying that stunt with a loaded shotgun pointed at you with a finger on the trigger is plain stupid. Time it if you dont believe me. How many seconds do you think it would take for you to whip out your gun and fire? Guaranteed it will be longer than someone to pull a trigger. your dead. game over. * * *

did you see the blast radius from the link i posted? you are welcome to look at other data from other sites. Although shotgun pellets individually dont have much weight/stopping power, at close proximity they would be going 1600fps (thats high powered rifle speed) and at 6ft distance, it could have a blast radius of 6ft. At close proximity it could easily kill 1 adult and those 3 kids...in 1 blast. though you are going to play hero and take that chance.
it is very possible to take a loaded cocked gun (of any type) away from someone...

don't you watch bruce lee movies?

if you are trained and experienced, it's not really that hard to knock a gun away and grab the perp by the balls (or shoot him if you're so inclined)...

routine mp training in 1967 included taking a gun away that is pointed at your head...

it takes longer to react to a surprise move than you might think...

the brain has to recognize what's going on and then react...

by that time, the "victim" could either knock the gun away or shoot the sob if he has his own handgun on him...

personally, i'd rather shoot all the perps before they could do anything to hurt the kids...

[vailpass]

This makes me think of my son's best friend who is in cub scouts. He "earned" a pocket knife (however you do that) at scouts, much to his mom's dismay. Well, dad overruled, and said his son demonstrated he was responsible enough to have a pocket knife.

Fast forward a week, and he decides it would be a good idea to carve his name in the kitchen table with said pocket knife. From what I understand it is still painful for him to sit.

I think 2nd grade may be a **tad** early for a pocket knife.

DT

Scouts aren't supposed to have a pocket knife until they reach 3rd grade and earn their Whittling Chip.

[Skip Towne]

Scouts aren't supposed to have a pocket knife until they reach 3rd grade and earn their Whittling Chip.
They still won't let Endelt have one and he's an Eagle Scout.

[go bo]

did you see the blast radius from the link i posted? you are welcome to look at other data from other sites. Although shotgun pellets individually dont have much weight/stopping power, at close proximity they would be going 1600fps (thats high powered rifle speed) and at 6ft distance, it could have a blast radius of 6ft. At close proximity it could easily kill 1 adult and those 3 kids...in 1 blast. though you are going to play hero and take that chance.

here is what a hero looks like against a shotgun blast. a "blast" radius of 6 feet at a range of 6 feet?

that must be some shotgun...

there's a difference between the effects of a shotgun blast at very close range (like pointing it at your own head to commit suicide) and the effects at a range of 6 feet)...

at suicide range, there is indeed a "blast" effect in addition to the damage caused by the pellets...

but before the pellets travel 6 feet, the "blast" dissipates and after then it's only the pellets that do much harm...

there's no way that i know of to get a pattern larger than a golf ball at 6 feet...

even the ancient blunderbuss couldn't get a spread like that...

and i know that even riot guns (designed to have as much spread as possible) don't expand the spread much beyond the size of a golf ball at 5 - 10 feet...

at longer ranges, the pattern does expand a bit more, but a 6 foot spread at a range of 6 feet is not very likely, if it's even possible...

[Skip Towne]

a "blast" radius of 6 feet at a range of 6 feet?

that must be some shotgun...

there's a difference between the effects of a shotgun blast at very close range (like pointing it at your own head to commit suicide) and the effects at a range of 6 feet)...

at suicide range, there is indeed a "blast" effect in addition to the damage caused by the pellets...

but before the pellets travel 6 feet, the "blast" dissipates and after then it's only the pellets that do much harm...

there's no way that i know of to get a pattern larger than a golf ball at 6 feet...

even the ancient blunderbuss couldn't get a spread like that...

and i know that even riot guns (designed to have as much spread as possible) don't expand the spread much beyond the size of a golf ball at 5 - 10 feet...

at longer ranges, the pattern does expand a bit more, but a 6 foot spread at a range of 6 feet is not very likely, if it's even possible...
Will a sawed off shotgun do it?

[Radar Chief]

Conclusion: It is possible that a shotgun can produce a golfball size hole at 6ft (though unlikely with a sawed off shotgun IMO),

Considering the complete lack of knowledge you’ve shown on this topic your opinion is just so many “empty words”.

[Radar Chief]

inadequacies?

what? you think he needs a bigger gun with a really long barrel?

is this some kind of short penis joke?

I know, interesting that the first thing findthedr goes for is the penis. Why he has such an obsession with my junk I don’t know.

[Radar Chief]

Will a sawed off shotgun do it?

No. The pattern from a sawed off will certainly spread out faster but not even one sawed off to an illegally short length will spread out much larger than golf ball size at 6 ft. Don’t ask how I know. ;)

[go bo]

* * *
Now, you and your “empty words” can kiss my ass. 4321ok, what qualifications does this guy have to be kissing your ass, anyway?

and the real question is wil he give you some tongue action to go along with the ass licking?

[Radar Chief]

Man. That's a cat's worst nightmare, right there.

FAX

http://www.airgunsbbguns.com/Default.asp?Redirected=Y

Notice the .177 cal pellet rifles that shoot 1200 fps? They make tipped and coated pellets that supposedly add another 100 fps. That’s 1300 fps, or faster than a .22 LR. And they’re quieter than a .22 because they aren’t using powder as a propellant.

The answer to your cat problems, just don’t tell anyone I told you about it. ;)

[Radar Chief]

ok, what qualifications does this guy have to be kissing your ass, anyway?

and the real question is wil he give you some tongue action to go along with the ass licking?

Jealous? ;)

[FAX]

ok, what qualifications does this guy have to be kissing your ass, anyway?

and the real question is wil he give you some tongue action to go along with the ass licking?

After reading this argument, I'm not sure that even an ass kissing is appropriate, Mr. go bowe. Maybe ass snuggling would be in order.

FAX

[go bo]

No shots were fired. The enemy brandished a weapon and istigated armed robbery, but they did not initiate gunfire.

You, on the otherhand, advocated initiating gunfire in the presence and close proximity of minors. That is stupid. If anyone else agrees with me, please speak up. If nothing else, this might save the lives of people around radar chief if he is in such a situation. i don't agree with you, but can i still speak up?

all in all, i'd rather have rc at my side for any shooting that needs to be done...

and i wouldn't hesitate to trust him with any of my kids, with or without guns...

[go bo]

Jealous? ;)maby... just a little bit...

nttawwt...

[HolmeZz]

Our boy scouts need to be armed. It's the only way.

[Bwana]

I know, interesting that the first thing findthedr goes for is the penis. Why he has such an obsession with my junk I don’t know.

After reading a few of his posts in this thread, I think his Johnson is the only gun he has ever fired. :shake:

[HemiEd]

ok, what qualifications does this guy have to be kissing your ass, anyway?

and the real question is wil he give you some tongue action to go along with the ass licking?

This thread sure took a strange turn. LMAO

[1ChiefsDan]

No shots were fired. The enemy brandished a weapon and istigated armed robbery, but they did not initiate gunfire.

You, on the otherhand, advocated initiating gunfire in the presence and close proximity of minors. That is stupid. If anyone else agrees with me, please speak up. If nothing else, this might save the lives of people around radar chief if he is in such a situation. I never had a reason to visit Chanute - Radar has given me a reason to stay away though. If he wants to risk his life that is one thing. When he advocates risking the life of children (his or others) that is another.

[supercoupe91]

Why was the father chasing men with a loaded shotgun?

Idiot.

[KCFalcon59]

Why was the father chasing men with a loaded shotgun?

Idiot.

Because he's A MAN!!

[go bo]

Will a sawed off shotgun do it?why don't we do it in the road? /beatles

sure, a sawed off shotgun will produce a larger spread than a standard shotgun...

but it still won't expand to 6 feet at a range of six feet...

you also lose considerably more force (or blast) because of the shorter barrel...

and at much longer ranges, say 50 feet or more, the pattern spreads so much that it's difficult to do much serious damage...

[HemiEd]

Why was the father chasing men with a loaded shotgun?

Idiot.

I agree, I know of a very similar situation that ended up with multiple deaths. Alcohol was involved though.