FOR THOSE LOOKING TO NEXT YEAR...

[HIChief]

Here's a pretty good analysis of the Chiefs' situation, and an approach to turning things around.


http://www.wildbillschiefs.com/cgi-bin/news/news.cgi?action=display&num=4022

Kansas City Chiefs

It's the last full month of the NFL's regular season, and that means fans are only thinking about one of two things: the playoffs or the draft, depending on the success of their favorite team.

Just one month ago, as the Kansas City Chiefs sat stop the terrible AFC West, the talk was of playoff scenarios and tiebreakers. But after a five-game losing streak, those topics have fallen by the wayside, replaced with thoughts of free agency, draft position and the promise of next year.

Another popular diversion while a disappointing season winds down is to assess blame for the state the team is in. Chiefs fans are no different, and many have taken to blaming head coach Herm Edwards for the team's ongoing struggles. No doubt, Edwards' conservative nature is a difficult adjustment for those who grew accustomed to the offensive shootouts taking place in Kansas City during the years before his arrival.

But to blame Edwards alone is to take an incredibly shortsighted view of the major problem facing the Chiefs, one that has roots going back several years.

When Dick Vermeil took over as Kansas City's coach in 2001, the organization - buoyed by Vermeil's Super Bowl pedigree - adopted a win-now philosophy throughout his stay. High draft picks were traded away to bring in proven veterans and crops of free agents were signed to bolster the team. The franchise, led by general manager Carl Peterson, did anything and everything that could be done to make the Chiefs competitive.

Despite the front office's best efforts, though, the team racked up a total of one postseason appearance and zero playoff wins during Vermeil's tenure. Even though the Chiefs boasted the NFL's best offense over the first half of the decade, their defense was consistently among the league's worst. As good as they were at scoring points, they were equally skilled - and perhaps better - at surrendering points to the opposing team.

As the seasons went by, the veterans the Chiefs had spent first-day picks to acquire began to age. Of the numerous free agents they signed to help their defense, only a select few actually made something resembling a difference. And, worst of all, the team whiffed on draft pick after draft pick during the same time frame.

Of the 38 draft selections made by Kansas City from 2001-2005, only nine players - RB Larry Johnson; DE Jimmy Wilkerson; TE Kris Wilson; WR Samie Parker; DE Jared Allen; LB Derrick Johnson; P Dustin Colquitt; LB/FB Boomer Grigsby; and OT Will Svitek - are still on the Chiefs' roster today. Of those remaining players, Wilkerson and Svitek are backups and three - Wilson, Parker and Grigsby - are average starters on the NFL's 30th-ranked offense. It's conceivable that any of those five players could be with other teams in 2008.

That leaves four picks who have actually made a significant impact on the field. Finding just four impact players in 38 tries gives Vermeil, Peterson and the Chiefs an embarrassing success rate of just 10.5 percent in the draft during those years.

Trading away valuable picks, signing multiple free-agent busts, and terrible drafting will derail even the best teams, and the Chiefs are starting to pay for those mistakes.

When Edwards took the reins from Vermeil in 2006, he inherited one of the league's worst defenses. But even in the midst of the Chiefs' current losing streak, their defense now ranks in the top 10 in both yards and scoring, a credit to the difference the head coach has already made.

But Edwards isn't without fault. While he can't be held responsible for the decline in the aging players he was left with, he - along with Peterson and coordinator Mike Solari - deserve a hefty share of blame for the way the Chiefs' offense has bottomed out this season.

If the team had an offensive line that was just a middle-of-the-road unit by NFL standards, Kansas City's fortunes in 2007 likely would have turned out another way. Any person involved in that decision-making process should be held accountable for his failure to evaluate the lack of talent on the line. Not only has it been difficult to move the ball, the Chiefs' quarterbacks are battered and bruised from the lack of protection they've been given.

The offense will likely be blown up in the offseason, with old players being shipped out, new ones being brought in, and probably a new coordinator, too. Considering the history of Edwards' teams on offense, perhaps it's time he took a page from his friend Tony Dungy and stepped back to let qualified offensive personnel run the unit. Of course, the team will first have to hire such personnel to make that a possibility.

The bottom line is that the problems plaguing the Chiefs are far-reaching and were caused by the mistakes of numerous people. Edwards may be the head coach now, but he shouldn't be blamed for issues that were formed years before he came to Kansas City. After season after season of mismanagement, the Chiefs' roster isn't going to fill up with talent overnight.

Edwards should be given a chance to build the team his way before being judged one way or the other. With a possible top-10 draft selection, picks in the double digits, and room under the salary cap, Kansas City should be in a prime position to make moves to improve the team over the offseason.

The key, though, will be the Chiefs' ability to properly evaluate talent, an area they've been sorely lacking in for most of the decade. If Edwards' staff proves better than his predecessor's in that regard, the Chiefs could back bounce quickly from the disappointment of 2007.

[Chiefs_5627]

Whole lot of truth to that article. DV's win now, screw the future is what we're suffering through right now imho.

[Hammock Parties]

You could at least link to the correct site:

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/20522.html

[FloridaMan88]

Edwards should be given a chance to build the team his way before being judged one way or the other.


Herm building a team his way? I thought this team was already playing the Herm way... scoring 5 points a game, zero downfield passing game, ultra-conservative game-plan that has completely bored the fanbase and is on the verge of ending the 16 year home sellout streak and getting every QB who has taken a snap this year injured.

Isn't that the Herm way?

[JBucc]

a

[BigRock]

The stuff about the draft is staggering. The staff found 4 good players in 5 years.

[BigRock]

Herm building a team his way? I thought this team was already playing the Herm way...
Way to cleverly change from "building" to "playing" so you can attack a point that nobody made.

[Buehler445]

I can't really disagree with any of the points in the article. However, I think it is CRITICAL to get offensive production. I don't give a shit how, but Herm has to get it done. Preferably by hiring a good coordinator and leaving it the hell alone.

[Hammock Parties]

Of the 38 draft selections made by Kansas City from 2001-2005, only nine players - RB Larry Johnson; DE Jimmy Wilkerson; TE Kris Wilson; WR Samie Parker; DE Jared Allen; LB Derrick Johnson; P Dustin Colquitt; LB/FB Boomer Grigsby; and OT Will Svitek - are still on the Chiefs' roster today. Of those remaining players, Wilkerson and Svitek are backups and three - Wilson, Parker and Grigsby - are average starters on the NFL's 30th-ranked offense. It's conceivable that any of those five players could be with other teams in 2008.

Man. Let's compare to New England:

Richard Seymour
Matt Light
Jarvis Green
Asante Samuel
Eugene Wilson
Ty Warren
Benjamin Watson
Vince Wilfork
Nick Kaczur
Ellis Hobbs
Logan Mankins

[Hammock Parties]

And in two years Herm has found Jarrad Page, Tamba Hali, Dwayne Bowe, Kolby Smith and what might be a good player in Brodie Croyle.

[Skip Towne]

Marty came here following Frank Ganz who went 4 - 11 and 4-11 -1 in '87 and '88. Marty took that same team to 8 -7 - 1 in '89. Then to 11 -5 in '90. Herm's teams get worse as he goes along. Both at KC and the Jets. I've seen enough of the ass clown.

[Rasputin]

We're like in pergatory or something like it. We don't like our HC, but we are suppose to give him a chance to do it his way and build us a championship team. CP has had 18 years but we are suppose to be "patient" with him and Herm. WTF.

I see a bright future for Brodie and D Bowe, if we don't get Brodie killed this year. I was exited to see Brodie play this weekend, but Svitec is starting at LT so now what to expect?.

I can tell it's going to take a couple more years before we get out of this slump and I'm loseing faith in Herm. I'd feel much better if they would just fire Carl Peterson.

[kcfanXIII]

he may not be a great coach, but i'm comfortable letting him build the team. his eye for talent has been proven to me. not only with his draft, but look at the rookie FA CB's he picked up this year. and let's not forget our WR savior, sippi-OOOO. if we decline again next year, that will be the time to boo herm edwards. oh, i almost forgot, **** carl.

[Rasputin]

he may not be a great coach, but i'm comfortable letting him build the team. his eye for talent has been proven to me. not only with his draft, but look at the rookie FA CB's he picked up this year. and let's not forget our WR savior, sippi-OOOO. if we decline again next year, that will be the time to boo herm edwards. oh, i almost forgot, **** carl.

I can be patient with Herm but NO WAY for Carl Peterson his time is up.

[Buehler445]

Marty came here following Frank Ganz who went 4 - 11 and 4-11 -1 in '87 and '88. Marty took that same team to 8 -7 - 1 in '89. Then to 11 -5 in '90. Herm's teams get worse as he goes along. Both at KC and the Jets. I've seen enough of the ass clown.

That's a very good point Skip. You could argue that this team got old, but you can't ignore what he did in NY.

[SBK]

This is a great article. I really do think that people would think higher of Herm is he had decent players to work with. Our offense can do nothing because we have the worst line in our history. The defense would be better if we could actually stay on the field.

Herm's going to turn this team around, but it's going to take him some time to get a few decent players in here.

[kcfanXIII]

I can be patient with Herm but NO WAY for Carl Peterson his time is up.

did i mention, **** carl? i agree 100%

[Rasputin]

This is a great article. I really do think that people would think higher of Herm is he had decent players to work with. Our offense can do nothing because we have the worst line in our history. The defense would be better if we could actually stay on the field.

Herm's going to turn this team around, but it's going to take him some time to get a few decent players in here.

W/O Carl Peterson and his love for UCLA kickers. Carl Peterson ego cost us some games this year just for that pick & not bringing in compitition for the kickers job in TC.

[HIChief]

You could at least link to the correct site:

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/20522.html

The link I pasted didn't work? Sorry about that!

[BigRock]

but you can't ignore what he did in NY.
Sure you can. People around here ignore it all the time. Claiming his team in NY got worse as they went along is ignoring it.

[Hammock Parties]

The link I pasted didn't work? Sorry about that!

No it's just fine, I just used to write for RF365 and feel they should get the credit.

[Buehler445]

Our offense can do nothing because we have the worst line in our history.

I pretty much agree with you. But from the games I watched, you can't blame ALL of the offensive ineptitude on the line. Not all of it is Herm's fault, but there is absolutely no reason for Huard to be playing. Croyle may not have been the saving grace, but we still don't know about him, which sets the offense back a tremendous amount. Kris Wilson was starting until this week. These are just a few examples, but Herm cannot be held blameless for the offensive ineptitude.

[Tribal Warfare]

And in two years Herm has found Jarrad Page, Tamba Hali, Dwayne Bowe, Kolby Smith and what might be a good player in Brodie Croyle.

Herm has a good eye for talent, but he's a horrible gameday coach.

[Hammock Parties]

Herm has a good eye for talent, but he's a horrible gameday coach.

I think that's established, we were just saying how shitty the Vermeil era drafting was.

[Rasputin]

So we should just let Herm do the draft picks and then can his arse and hire _____

[Ari ümlaüt]

After reading this, Im going to need some Chiefs Planet Therapy.

[Buehler445]

So we should just let Herm do the draft picks and then can his arse and hire _____

I'm not sure that's a good idea either. Coaches like different players. If we hire the anti-Herm, he may want to blow up the ship again and start over.

[blueballs]

I remember mediocrity like it was only a month ago

[blueballs]

I pretty much agree with you. But from the games I watched, you can't blame ALL of the offensive ineptitude on the line. Not all of it is Herm's fault, but there is absolutely no reason for Huard to be playing. Croyle may not have been the saving grace, but we still don't know about him, which sets the offense back a tremendous amount. Not to mention that Herm was not willing to give Bowe PT until Kennison went out. Kris Wilson was starting until this week. These are just a few examples, but Herm cannot be held blameless for the offensive ineptitude.

Is this a joke

[Hammock Parties]

Herm was not willing to give Bowe PT until Kennison went out.

We have no way of knowing that. It's probably not true.

[Buehler445]

We have no way of knowing that. It's probably not true.

You guys are right, I'll edit it out. I'm a bonehead.

[Messier]

[QUOTE=Buehler445] Not to mention that Herm was not willing to give Bowe PT until Kennison went out. QUOTE]


How do you know? All we know is Bowe didn't start the opening game. Kennison went out on like the second play of that game.

[splatbass]

Not to mention that Herm was not willing to give Bowe PT until Kennison went out.

We don't know that. Kennison went out on the first play of the season. We never got a chance to see how much playing time he would have gotten if Kennison didn't get hurt.


It is this kind of pure speculation stated as fact that bothers me about the Herm haters.

[Buehler445]

I took it out. You guys are right, But it doesn't changed the fact that Herm is partially to blame for our shitty ass O.

[Chiefs_5627]

Sure you can. People around here ignore it all the time. Claiming his team in NY got worse as they went along is ignoring it.


AND they actually made the playoffs occasionally and a won a couple, something that we dont do here.

[Rasputin]

I'm not sure that's a good idea either. Coaches like different players. If we hire the anti-Herm, he may want to blow up the ship again and start over.

I'll be just happy to fire CP, then we can start talking bout building us a championship team. Doesn't matter who our coach is imo as long as King Carl is around. King Carl is holding us back, not becouse he wants to he can't help it at this point his ego is huge and he has no clue on how to build us a championship team. 18 years of old used up QBs just did not work and now we are trying to develope a young QB with out a O line to save him from getting killed. This is King Carls miss and Herm is going to have to fix it some how. I'll be patient with Herm on the aspect of getting us the players and after a few years this team improving tallent wise but if his coaching interfears(sp) then we can fire him and hire a coach like Gruden who took the Tampa team to the SB after the team was built by Tony Dungy.

[Chiefs_5627]

We don't know that. Kennison went out on the first play of the season. We never got a chance to see how much playing time he would have gotten if Kennison didn't get hurt.


It is this kind of pure speculation stated as fact that bothers me about the Herm haters.



Also keep in mind Bowe got a late start.

[DaneMcCloud]

Marty came here following Frank Ganz who went 4 - 11 and 4-11 -1 in '87 and '88. Marty took that same team to 8 -7 - 1 in '89. Then to 11 -5 in '90. Herm's teams get worse as he goes along. Both at KC and the Jets. I've seen enough of the ass clown.

Really? The same team? I don't think so, Buddy.

In 1988, Neil Smith was battling a painful UTI and could barely play (he missed 3 games and couldn't stay on the field during the games he did play). In 1989, the Chiefs drafted Derrick Thomas and along with Smith, combined for 16.5 sacks in 1989. In 1990, they combined for 29.5 sacks.

Additionally, the Chiefs added Dave Szott and Tim Grunhard to the starting lineup to go along with All-Pro John Alt. The Chiefs had a very good line at that point. Gansz did not have that benefit.

Gansz most certainly sucked as a head coach but let's not fool anyone into thinking that both coaches had the same exact personnel.

[Tribal Warfare]

I think that's established, we were just saying how shitty the Vermeil era drafting was.


Then the blame should be squarely shifted on King Carl then

[Hammock Parties]

Then the blame should be squarely shifted on King Carl then

It's on Vermeil and Lynn Stiles, too.

[DaneMcCloud]

I took it out. You guys are right, But it doesn't changed the fact that Herm is partially to blame for our shitty ass O.

Then who gets credit for the #9 defense in yardage and #8 in total points?

It's amazing to me how so many people have SUCH a short memory. The team had the perennial #32 defense for years on end but that NEVER gets mentioned by ANY of the HermanHaters.

[Tribal Warfare]

It's on Vermeil and Lynn Stiles, too.



Nope, it's the man in charge Carl Peterson because he's the one who hired these individuals

[Buehler445]

Then who gets credit for the #9 defense in yardage and #8 in total points?

It's amazing to me how so many people have SUCH a short memory. The team had the perennial #32 defense for years on end but that NEVER gets mentioned by ANY of the HermanHaters.

Dude, I didn't say he didn't do anything for the team. But I do believe he deserves a share of the blame for the offensive struggles. If you look at my origional post, it was in response to a post that suggested all of the offensive struggles are a result of the terrible line. I just don't think that is the case.

Herm has his positives, but he does deserve some blame also.

[Hammock Parties]

Nope, it's the man in charge Carl Peterson because he's the one who hired these individuals

Ultimately, yes.

[Boris The Great]

No it\'s just fine, I just used to write for RF365 and feel they should get the credit.
I read RF365 every few days, this new Chiefs guy is a good writer. You guys should get him on WPI.

[FAX]

"That leaves four picks who have actually made a significant impact on the field. Finding just four impact players in 38 tries gives Vermeil, Peterson and the Chiefs an embarrassing success rate of just 10.5 percent in the draft during those years."

A week or so ago, I accidentally overdosed on french roast and decided to take another look at our draft success since DT was taken (Neil Smith was taken the year prior). We have easily drafted 100 players since then - more likely 120. About 10 or so of that number are guys I would consider to be "impact" players. So, this problem is not new. In fact, it dates back to Carl's first days on the job.

FAX

[Tribal Warfare]

Ultimately, yes.


That's the reason I can't really blame the coaches if they're incompetent, because of the person who hired these guys.

[RustShack]

Fire Carl and Solari!

[blueballs]

Marty had more success with undrafted players
than VD had drafting - that's ****ing pathetic
T-Rich / Hicks and Maz off the top of my head

[Mojo Rising]

Nope, it's the man in charge Carl Peterson because he's the one who hired these individuals

The man in charge hired CP and kept him on board. He also put Steadman in the Ring Of Fame.

I remember in the 70's my Dad would wear a "Dump Steadman" shirt to the games. Now he is inshrined right across the stadium from his seats.

[Hammock Parties]

I read RF365 every few days, this new Chiefs guy is a good writer. You guys should get him on WPI.

Yeah I pretty much recommended him for the job when I left. He does a good job. We don't pay (most) of our writers, though.

[Rasputin]

The thing that bugs me the most about CP is the fact that he never wanted to draft or groom our own QB. He always gone out of his way to get the 30+ year old QB that is on the start of his down turn of his career. Ala Joe Montana was a great QB but he should never have been a Chief. & I love Joe Montana and liked him as a Chief, but he wasn't here for the long hall of building us a Championship caliber team. We've had great Olines over the years but the QBs didn't last long enough or our Defense got old and we never had a QB to withstand the long term building years or rebuilding years. Now we finally have a young gun QB reluctantly picked by CP becouse he was under pressure to do so by the KC media and HC, but wait we were stuck half the season with an 11 year career back up turned starter only after #10 went down with injury last year. King Carl is an absolute dumb ass of a GM imho.

[OnTheWarpath15]

"That leaves four picks who have actually made a significant impact on the field. Finding just four impact players in 38 tries gives Vermeil, Peterson and the Chiefs an embarrassing success rate of just 10.5 percent in the draft during those years."

A week or so ago, I accidentally overdosed on french roast and decided to take another look at our draft success since DT was taken (Neil Smith was taken the year prior). We have easily drafted 100 players since then - more likely 120. About 10 or so of that number are guys I would consider to be "impact" players. So, this problem is not new. In fact, it dates back to Carl's first days on the job.

FAX


Here's every draft pick of the Carl Peterson era:

2007
Dwayne Bowe WR Louisiana State
Turk McBride DT Tennessee
DeMarcus 'Tank' Tyler DT North Carolina State
Kolby Smith RB Louisville
Justin Medlock K UCLA
Herbert Taylor T Texas Christian
Michael Allan TE Whitworth

2006
Tamba Hali DE Penn State
Bernard Pollard DB Purdue
Brodie Croyle QB Alabama
Marcus Maxey DB Miami (FL)
Tre' Stallings G Mississippi
Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
Jarrad Page DB UCLA

2005
Derrick O. Johnson LB Texas
Dustin Colquitt P Tennessee
Craphonso Thorpe WR Florida State
Boomer Grigsby LB Illinois State
Alphonso Hodge DB Miami (OH)
Will Svitek T Stanford
Khari Long DE Baylor
James Kilian QB Tulsa
Jeremy Parquet T Southern Mississippi

2004
Junior Siavii DT Oregon
Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh
Keyaron Fox LB Georgia Tech
Samie Parker WR Oregon
Jared Allen DE Idaho State
Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

2003
Larry Johnson RB Penn State
Kawika Mitchell LB South Florida
Julian Battle DB Tennessee
Brett Williams T Florida State
Jordan Black T Notre Dame
Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
Montique Sharpe DT Wake Forest
Willie Pile DB Virginia Tech

2002
Ryan Sims DT North Carolina
Eddie Freeman DT Alabama-Birmingham
Omar Easy RB Penn State
Scott Fujita LB California
Maurice Rodriguez LB Fresno State

2001
Eric Downing DT Syracuse
Marvin Minnis WR Florida State
Monty Beisel DE Kansas State
George Layne RB Texas Christian
Billy Baber TE Virginia
Derrick Blaylock RB Stephen F. Austin
Alex Sulfsted G Miami (OH)
Shaunard Harts DB Boise State
Terdell Sands DT Chattanooga

2000
Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
William Bartee DB Oklahoma
Gregory Wesley DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff
Frank Moreau RB Louisville
Dante Hall RB Texas A&M
Patrick Dennis DB Louisiana-Monroe
Darnell Alford G Boston College
Desmond Kitchings WR Furman

1999
John Tait T Brigham Young
Mike Cloud RB Boston College
Gary Stills LB West Virginia
Larry Atkins DB UCLA
Larry Parker WR USC
Eric King G Richmond

1998
Victor Riley T Auburn
Rashaan Shehee RB Washington
Greg Favors LB Mississippi State
Robert Williams DB North Carolina
Derrick Ransom DE Cincinnati
Eric Warfield DB Nebraska
Ernest Blackwell RB Missouri

1997
Tony Gonzalez TE California
Kevin Lockett WR Kansas State
Pat Barnes QB California
June Henley RB Kansas
Isaac Byrd WR Kansas
Nathan Parks T Stanford

1996
Jerome Woods DB Memphis
Reggie Tongue DB Oregon State
John Browning DE West Virginia
Donnie Edwards LB UCLA
Joe Horn WR Itawamba C.C.
Dietrich Jells WR Pittsburgh
Philip Riley WR Florida State
Ben Lynch C California
Jeff Smith C Tennessee
Darrell Williams DB Tennessee State

1995
Trezelle Jenkins T Michigan
Tamarick Vanover WR Florida State
Troy Dumas LB Nebraska
Steve Stenstrom QB Stanford
Mike Pelton DT Auburn
Jerrott Willard LB California
Bryan Proby DT Arizona State
Tom Burndt C Pittsburgh

1994
Greg Hill RB Texas A&M
Donnell Bennett RB Miami (FL)
Lake Dawson WR Notre Dame
Chris Penn WR Tulsa
Bracey Walker DB North Carolina
James Burton DB Fresno State
Rob Waldrop DT Arizona
Anthony Daigle RB Fresno State
Steve Matthews QB Memphis
Tracy Greene TE Grambling

1993
Will Shields G Nebraska
Jaime Fields LB Washington
Lindsay Knapp G Notre Dame
Darius Turner RB Washington
Danan Hughes WR Iowa

1992s
Darren Mickell DE Florida

1992
Dale Carter DB Tennessee
Matt Blundin QB Virginia
Mike Evans DE Michigan
Tony Smith WR Notre Dame
Erick Anderson LB Michigan
Jim Jennings G San Diego State
Jay Leeuwenburg C Colorado
Jerry Ostroski G Tulsa
Doug Rigby DE Wyoming
Corey Williams DB Oklahoma State

1991
Harvey Williams RB Louisiana State
Joe Valerio T Pennsylvania
Tim Barnett WR Jackson State
Charles Mincy DB Washington
Darrell Malone DB Jacksonville State
Bernard Ellison DB Nevada
Tom Dohring T Michigan
Robbie Keen K California
Eric Ramsey DB Auburn
Bobby Olive WR Ohio State
Ron Shipley G New Mexico

1990
Percy Snow LB Michigan State
Tim Grunhard C Notre Dame
Fred Jones WR Grambling
Derrick Graham T Appalachian State
Ken Hackemack T Texas
Tom Sims DT Pittsburgh
Dave Szott G Penn State
Michael Owens RB Syracuse
Craig Hudson TE Wisconsin
Ernest Thompson RB Georgia Southern
Tony Jeffery WR San Jose State

1989
Derrick Thomas LB Alabama
Mike Elkins QB Wake Forest
Naz Worthern WR North Carolina State
Stanley Petry DB Texas Christian
Robb Thomas WR Oregon State
Ron Sancho LB Louisiana State
Bryan Tobey RB Grambling
Todd McNair RB Temple
Jack Phillips DB Alcorn State
Rob McGovern LB Holy Cross
Marcus Turner DB UCLA
Bill Jones RB Southwest Texas State





THAT might be one of the WORST drafting histories of a GM ever.

Not only did the vast majority of these guys not do anything in KC, they didn't even go anywhere ELSE and make a name for themselves.

How FAX found 10 impact players is beyond me. It was very generous of him to find 10.

I found 8, FWIW.

[Skip Towne]

Really? The same team? I don't think so, Buddy.

In 1988, Neil Smith was battling a painful UTI and could barely play (he missed 3 games and couldn't stay on the field during the games he did play). In 1989, the Chiefs drafted Derrick Thomas and along with Smith, combined for 16.5 sacks in 1989. In 1990, they combined for 29.5 sacks.

Additionally, the Chiefs added Dave Szott and Tim Grunhard to the starting lineup to go along with All-Pro John Alt. The Chiefs had a very good line at that point. Gansz did not have that benefit.

Gansz most certainly sucked as a head coach but let's not fool anyone into thinking that both coaches had the same exact personnel.
Of course Marty added to it. But it sure as hell didn't take him long to win. He won immediately. Herm goes backward.

[Tribal Warfare]

The man in charge hired CP and kept him on board. He also put Steadman in the Ring Of Fame.

I remember in the 70's my Dad would wear a "Dump Steadman" shirt to the games. Now he is inshrined right across the stadium from his seats.



Can't really blame him with Carl, he was battling cancer during most of his tender

[TEX]

This is a great article. I really do think that people would think higher of Herm is he had decent players to work with. Our offense can do nothing because we have the worst line in our history. The defense would be better if we could actually stay on the field.

Herm's going to turn this team around, but it's going to take him some time to get a few decent players in here.

What makes you think that he is going to turn it around?

[splatbass]

Herm goes backward.

That is what happens when you rebuild. Sometimes you have to take a step back before you can go forward.

[88TG88]

This thread makes me want to cry

[Rasputin]

Here's every draft pick of the Carl Peterson era:



THAT might be one of the WORST drafting histories of a GM ever.

Not only did the vast majority of these guys not do anything in KC, they didn't even go anywhere ELSE and make a name for themselves.

How FAX found 10 impact players is beyond me. It was very generous of him to find 10.

I found 8, FWIW.


How King Carl has kept his day job is beyond me? He has no clue what so ever on how to build us a Championship team. What's saved him though is his abuility too win enough game throughout & keep the seats full at Arrowhead.

[OnTheWarpath15]

This thread makes me want to cry

No shit.

If I counted correctly, there have been 157 draft picks under Carl Peterson.

8 impact players out of ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN picks.

What is that, like a 5% success rate?

Time to change the avatar.......

[bowener]

Here's every draft pick of the Carl Peterson era:

2007
Dwayne Bowe WR Louisiana State
Turk McBride DT Tennessee
DeMarcus 'Tank' Tyler DT North Carolina State
Kolby Smith RB Louisville
Justin Medlock K UCLA
Herbert Taylor T Texas Christian
Michael Allan TE Whitworth

2006
Tamba Hali DE Penn State
Bernard Pollard DB Purdue
Brodie Croyle QB Alabama
Marcus Maxey DB Miami (FL)
Tre' Stallings G Mississippi
Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
Jarrad Page DB UCLA

2005
Derrick O. Johnson LB Texas
Dustin Colquitt P Tennessee
Craphonso Thorpe WR Florida State
Boomer Grigsby LB Illinois State
Alphonso Hodge DB Miami (OH)
Will Svitek T Stanford
Khari Long DE Baylor
James Kilian QB Tulsa
Jeremy Parquet T Southern Mississippi

2004
Junior Siavii DT Oregon
Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh
Keyaron Fox LB Georgia Tech
Samie Parker WR Oregon
Jared Allen DE Idaho State
Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

2003
Larry Johnson RB Penn State
Kawika Mitchell LB South Florida
Julian Battle DB Tennessee
Brett Williams T Florida State
Jordan Black T Notre Dame
Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
Montique Sharpe DT Wake Forest
Willie Pile DB Virginia Tech

2002
Ryan Sims DT North Carolina
Eddie Freeman DT Alabama-Birmingham
Omar Easy RB Penn State
Scott Fujita LB California
Maurice Rodriguez LB Fresno State

2001
Eric Downing DT Syracuse
Marvin Minnis WR Florida State
Monty Beisel DE Kansas State
George Layne RB Texas Christian
Billy Baber TE Virginia
Derrick Blaylock RB Stephen F. Austin
Alex Sulfsted G Miami (OH)
Shaunard Harts DB Boise State
Terdell Sands DT Chattanooga

2000
Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
William Bartee DB Oklahoma
Gregory Wesley DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff
Frank Moreau RB Louisville
Dante Hall RB Texas A&M
Patrick Dennis DB Louisiana-Monroe
Darnell Alford G Boston College
Desmond Kitchings WR Furman

1999
John Tait T Brigham Young
Mike Cloud RB Boston College
Gary Stills LB West Virginia
Larry Atkins DB UCLA
Larry Parker WR USC
Eric King G Richmond

1998
Victor Riley T Auburn
Rashaan Shehee RB Washington
Greg Favors LB Mississippi State
Robert Williams DB North Carolina
Derrick Ransom DE Cincinnati
Eric Warfield DB Nebraska
Ernest Blackwell RB Missouri

1997
Tony Gonzalez TE California
Kevin Lockett WR Kansas State
Pat Barnes QB California
June Henley RB Kansas
Isaac Byrd WR Kansas
Nathan Parks T Stanford

1996
Jerome Woods DB Memphis
Reggie Tongue DB Oregon State
John Browning DE West Virginia
Donnie Edwards LB UCLA
Joe Horn WR Itawamba C.C.
Dietrich Jells WR Pittsburgh
Philip Riley WR Florida State
Ben Lynch C California
Jeff Smith C Tennessee
Darrell Williams DB Tennessee State

1995
Trezelle Jenkins T Michigan
Tamarick Vanover WR Florida State
Troy Dumas LB Nebraska
Steve Stenstrom QB Stanford
Mike Pelton DT Auburn
Jerrott Willard LB California
Bryan Proby DT Arizona State
Tom Burndt C Pittsburgh

1994
Greg Hill RB Texas A&M
Donnell Bennett RB Miami (FL)
Lake Dawson WR Notre Dame
Chris Penn WR Tulsa
Bracey Walker DB North Carolina
James Burton DB Fresno State
Rob Waldrop DT Arizona
Anthony Daigle RB Fresno State
Steve Matthews QB Memphis
Tracy Greene TE Grambling

1993
Will Shields G Nebraska
Jaime Fields LB Washington
Lindsay Knapp G Notre Dame
Darius Turner RB Washington
Danan Hughes WR Iowa

1992s
Darren Mickell DE Florida

1992
Dale Carter DB Tennessee
Matt Blundin QB Virginia
Mike Evans DE Michigan
Tony Smith WR Notre Dame
Erick Anderson LB Michigan
Jim Jennings G San Diego State
Jay Leeuwenburg C Colorado
Jerry Ostroski G Tulsa
Doug Rigby DE Wyoming
Corey Williams DB Oklahoma State

1991
Harvey Williams RB Louisiana State
Joe Valerio T Pennsylvania
Tim Barnett WR Jackson State
Charles Mincy DB Washington
Darrell Malone DB Jacksonville State
Bernard Ellison DB Nevada
Tom Dohring T Michigan
Robbie Keen K California
Eric Ramsey DB Auburn
Bobby Olive WR Ohio State
Ron Shipley G New Mexico

1990
Percy Snow LB Michigan State
Tim Grunhard C Notre Dame
Fred Jones WR Grambling
Derrick Graham T Appalachian State
Ken Hackemack T Texas
Tom Sims DT Pittsburgh
Dave Szott G Penn State
Michael Owens RB Syracuse
Craig Hudson TE Wisconsin
Ernest Thompson RB Georgia Southern
Tony Jeffery WR San Jose State

1989
Derrick Thomas LB Alabama
Mike Elkins QB Wake Forest
Naz Worthern WR North Carolina State
Stanley Petry DB Texas Christian
Robb Thomas WR Oregon State
Ron Sancho LB Louisiana State
Bryan Tobey RB Grambling
Todd McNair RB Temple
Jack Phillips DB Alcorn State
Rob McGovern LB Holy Cross
Marcus Turner DB UCLA
Bill Jones RB Southwest Texas State





THAT might be one of the WORST drafting histories of a GM ever.

Not only did the vast majority of these guys not do anything in KC, they didn't even go anywhere ELSE and make a name for themselves.

How FAX found 10 impact players is beyond me. It was very generous of him to find 10.

I found 8, FWIW.

We should print this out by the thousands and mail them to CP congratulating him on his 8 impact players he drafted for us. I noticed it doesnt show the picks we traded away as well, which makes it even worse.

[Chiefs_5627]

That is what happens when you rebuild. Sometimes you have to take a step back before you can go forward.



EXACTLY, especially from the rotted roster DV left behind.

[Hammock Parties]

No shit.

If I counted correctly, there have been 157 draft picks under Carl Peterson.

8 impact players out of ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN picks.

What is that, like a 5% success rate?

Time to change the avatar.......

Define "impact" player. Are you talking about a future Hall of Famer, a guy who goes to few Pro Bowls, or what?

I think Carl has made more than eight good picks out of 157. Larry Johnson, Dustin Colquitt, Derrick Johnson, Dwayne Bowe, Tamba Hali, Jarrad Page, Jared Allen, all good picks in the last few years. Tim Grunhard, Dave Szott, Will Shields, Tony Gonzalez, Donnie Edwards, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue, Dale Carter, Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, all pretty good picks during the 90s. I'm probably missing quite a few good players, too.

[Rasputin]

Define "impact" player. Are you talking about a future Hall of Famer, a guy who goes to few Pro Bowls, or what?

I think Carl has made more than eight good picks out of 157. Larry Johnson, Dustin Colquitt, Derrick Johnson, Dwayne Bowe, Tamba Hali, Jarrad Page, Jared Allen, all good picks in the last few years. Tim Grunhard, Dave Szott, Will Shields, Tony Gonzalez, Donnie Edwards, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue, Dale Carter, Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, all pretty good picks during the 90s. I'm probably missing quite a few good players, too.

Don't forget to add Ryan Simms and Jr. Siavii to your list and another bunch of losers / i meen the best players.

[ChiefsCountry]

Here is the list of players that either started in the NFL for the Chiefs or someother team drafted by Carl.

2005
Derrick O. Johnson LB Texas
Dustin Colquitt P Tennessee
Craphonso Thorpe WR Florida State
Boomer Grigsby LB Illinois State

2004
Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh
Samie Parker WR Oregon
Jared Allen DE Idaho State

2003
Larry Johnson RB Penn State
Kawika Mitchell LB South Florida
Jordan Black T Notre Dame
Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma

2002
Ryan Sims DT North Carolina
Scott Fujita LB California

2001
Monty Beisel DE Kansas State
Derrick Blaylock RB Stephen F. Austin
Shaunard Harts DB Boise State
Terdell Sands DT Chattanooga

2000
Gregory Wesley DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff
Dante Hall RB Texas A&M
Patrick Dennis DB Louisiana-Monroe

1999
John Tait T Brigham Young
Mike Cloud RB Boston College
Gary Stills LB West Virginia

1998
Victor Riley T Auburn
Greg Favors LB Mississippi State
Derrick Ransom DE Cincinnati
Eric Warfield DB Nebraska

1997
Tony Gonzalez TE California
Kevin Lockett WR Kansas State
Isaac Byrd WR Kansas

1996
Jerome Woods DB Memphis
Reggie Tongue DB Oregon State
John Browning DE West Virginia
Donnie Edwards LB UCLA
Joe Horn WR Itawamba C.C.
Jeff Smith C Tennessee

1995
Tamarick Vanover WR Florida State
Steve Stenstrom QB Stanford
Tom Burndt C Pittsburgh

1994
Greg Hill RB Texas A&M
Donnell Bennett RB Miami (FL)
Lake Dawson WR Notre Dame
Chris Penn WR Tulsa
Bracey Walker DB North Carolina
Steve Matthews QB Memphis

1993
Will Shields G Nebraska
Danan Hughes WR Iowa

1992s
Darren Mickell DE Florida

1992
Dale Carter DB Tennessee
Jay Leeuwenburg C Colorado
Jerry Ostroski G Tulsa

1991
Harvey Williams RB Louisiana State
Joe Valerio T Pennsylvania
Tim Barnett WR Jackson State
Charles Mincy DB Washington

1990
Percy Snow LB Michigan State
Tim Grunhard C Notre Dame
Fred Jones WR Grambling
Derrick Graham T Appalachian State
Dave Szott G Penn State

1989
Derrick Thomas LB Alabama
Robb Thomas WR Oregon State
Todd McNair RB Temple
Bill Jones RB Southwest Texas State

[HonestChieffan]

In three years we will still battle for 2nd or third in division, Herm will have all new guys playing 1973 style ball and we will be hiring a new coach.

Herm wont suck less with more players he picks.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Define "impact" player. Are you talking about a future Hall of Famer, a guy who goes to few Pro Bowls, or what?

I think Carl has made more than eight good picks out of 157. Larry Johnson, Dustin Colquitt, Derrick Johnson, Dwayne Bowe, Tamba Hali, Jarrad Page, Jared Allen, all good picks in the last few years. Tim Grunhard, Dave Szott, Will Shields, Tony Gonzalez, Donnie Edwards, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue, Dale Carter, Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, all pretty good picks during the 90s. I'm probably missing quite a few good players, too.

"Good" picks are not impact players.

My 8 impact players: Impact players could single handedly change the outcome of a game, and did so regularly. It could be argued that LJ and Jared haven't done enough consistently to be considered impact players.

DT
Szott
Grunhard
Shields
Donnie Edwards
Gonzo
LJ
Jared Allen

2 I should probably add after thinking about it, since one made his "impact" somewhere else:

Joe Horn and Dale Carter.

IIRC, Neil Smith was drafted in 1988, one year before Carl.

Hell, even if you want to include "serviceable or good players" the percentage is ridiculously low.......

[FloridaMan88]

Way to cleverly change from "building" to "playing" so you can attack a point that nobody made.

There is no need to keep "building"... if you are talking about the Herm Way... this team has already been built in that way and is playing like it.

Zero offense, gutless pathetic coaching... that is the Herm Way and it has already been built.

Now the key is blowing it up and building a real team

[OnTheWarpath15]

ChiefsCountry:

Just because they started doesn't mean they were good picks/players.

The 2007 Kansas City Chiefs are an excellent example.

[Hammock Parties]

"Good" picks are not impact players.

My 8 impact players: Impact players could single handedly change the outcome of a game, and did so regularly. It could be argued that LJ and Jared haven't done enough consistently to be considered impact players.

DT
Szott
Grunhard
Shields
Donnie Edwards
Gonzo
LJ
Jared Allen

2 I should probably add after thinking about it, since one made his "impact" somewhere else:

Joe Horn and Dale Carter.

IIRC, Neil Smith was drafted in 1988, one year before Carl.

Hell, even if you want to include "serviceable or good players" the percentage is ridiculously low.......

How many "impact" players should the Chiefs have drafted over the last 19 years?

[Hammock Parties]

There is no need to keep "building"... if you are talking about the Herm Way... this team has already been built in that way and is playing like it.

Zero offense, gutless pathetic coaching... that is the Herm Way and it has already been built.

Now the key is blowing it up and building a real team

This post is a little unfair. Herm is not satisfied with the talent on this team.

[TEX]

In three years we will still battle for 2nd or third in division, Herm will have all new guys playing 1973 style ball and we will be hiring a new coach.

Herm wont suck less with more players he picks.

I feel the same way.

[ChiefsCountry]

ChiefsCountry:

Just because they started doesn't mean they were good picks/players.

The 2007 Kansas City Chiefs are an excellent example.

Yeah I know but this is the list of serivceable players that the Chiefs have drafted.

[TEX]

"Good" picks are not impact players.

My 8 impact players: Impact players could single handedly change the outcome of a game, and did so regularly. It could be argued that LJ and Jared haven't done enough consistently to be considered impact players.

DT
Szott
Grunhard
Shields
Donnie Edwards
Gonzo
LJ
Jared Allen

2 I should probably add after thinking about it, since one made his "impact" somewhere else:

Joe Horn and Dale Carter.

IIRC, Neil Smith was drafted in 1988, one year before Carl.

Hell, even if you want to include "serviceable or good players" the percentage is ridiculously low.......

Grunhard - Impact? He was good, but IMO not an impact player.

[ChiefsCountry]

Lets go with Elite players for their positions.

Marty Years
Derrick Thomas
Tim Grunhard
Dave Szott
Dale Carter
Will Shields
Donnie Edwards
Joe Horn
Tony Gonzalez

Gunther/Dick Years
Dante Hall
Larry Johnson
Jared Allen
Derrick Johnson
Dustin Colquitt

[OnTheWarpath15]

How many "impact" players should the Chiefs have drafted over the last 19 years?

I wish I had an entire day to review the last 19 years of every teams drafts, just to see how we compare.

You can't honestly think were anywhere near the top half......probably not even top two-thirds.

Just using Baltimore as an example:

7 impact players in the past 9 years. It could be argued that they have 9, considering Ngata and if Derek Anderson continues to play like this.

So, there's as many as Carl in less than half the time.

[Calcountry]

I can be patient with Herm but NO WAY for Carl Peterson his time is up.You have no idea what you are talking about. Fire the GM that Hired Herm, but keep herm on? That's like firing GR and replacing him with Gun and not upgrading the talent he has to work with while at the same time, making DV his boss.

Yep, that worked out well didn't it.

No, every sorry mfer that is responsible for that abysmal drafting record in the slightest way should be fired immediately. If anybody deserves a chance to rebuild his team, he should be allowed to do it from scratch, not with Herm Edwards crap, or DV's crap, or CP's crap. Start from zero.

We have the opportunity to reboot.

[Hammock Parties]

Just using Baltimore as an example:

7 impact players in the past 9 years.

Who? Seven guys as good as Tony Gonzalez and Donnie Edwards?

[Easy 6]

Theres nothing in the article that i disagree with, but i could go back & collect snippets from dozens of other posters, including me, arrange them together & say all of the exact same things.

[ChiefsCountry]

Who? Seven guys as good as Tony Gonzalez and Donnie Edwards?

Ray Lewis
Ed Reed
Chris McAllister
Jonathan Ogden

Off the top of my head.

[Calcountry]

This is a great article. I really do think that people would think higher of Herm is he had decent players to work with. Our offense can do nothing because we have the worst line in our history. The defense would be better if we could actually stay on the field.

Herm's going to turn this team around, but it's going to take him some time to get a few decent players in here.You know what, I am sick and fuggin tired of excuses. Excuses are a sign on weakness, period.

This is just another excuse for sucking and it needs to stop.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Who? Seven guys as good as Tony Gonzalez and Donnie Edwards?

Not every one of them, no. But in comparison to the entire Chiefs list, yeah.

Ed Reed
Todd Heap
Adalius Thomas
Chris McAlister
Jamal Lewis
Terrell Suggs

Sorry, miscounted by one. There's only six.

[Reerun_KC]

Time for Clark to press Ctrl-Alt-DEL twice and reboot this mother!

[Chiefs_5627]

You know what, I am sick and fuggin tired of excuses. Excuses are a sign on weakness, period.

This is just another excuse for sucking and it needs to stop.


So if the Colts lost Manning and sucked it would just be an excuse?

[FloridaMan88]

This post is a little unfair. Herm is not satisfied with the talent on this team.

I'm 100% convinced Herm wants to run an offense that scores 10 points or less a game and doesn't pass the ball more than 5 yards downfield.

[Hammock Parties]

Theres nothing in the article that i disagree with, but i could go back & collect snippets from dozens of other posters, including me, arrange them together & say all of the exact same things.

Yeah, that's the only thing I don't like about Michael's writing sometimes, and RF365 in general. I feel it's for more casual fans. Tell me something I don't know!

[Easy 6]

I'm 100% convinced Herm wants to run an offense that scores 10 points or less a game and doesn't pass the ball more than 5 yards downfield.

88 says... :o) HOWDY FOLKS!!! :o) .

[Hammock Parties]

I'm 100% convinced Herm wants to run an offense that scores 10 points or less a game and doesn't pass the ball more than 5 yards downfield.

I'm 100% convinced you're wrong. He's stated many times he would love to score 30 points a game, and he's stated several times this year he was disappointed with the offense only average 10-13 points over a given stretch. We've thrown the ball down the field the last two years, at least as much as our talent allows. Hell, Herm called a 20-yard pass on the first play last week.

I think Herm's heart is in the right place, and he has the right goals. I'm just not sure he knows how to achieve them, or how to hire the people to help him achieve them.

[Messier]

Not every one of them, no. But in comparison to the entire Chiefs list, yeah.

Ed Reed
Todd Heap
Adalius Thomas
Chris McAlister
Jamal Lewis
Terrell Suggs

Sorry, miscounted by one. There's only six.


Just using the ravens as an example? They are what I would say are the best drafting team the last ten years. Better than any other.

[Deberg_1990]

I'm 100% convinced Herm wants to run an offense that scores 10 points or less a game and doesn't pass the ball more than 5 yards downfield.


No, your 100% wrong.

Is he a little conservative? Hell yes, but of course he wants to score more.

I think he plays things close to the vest now, because it gives the Chiefs the best chance to win RIGHT NOW.

Do you really want to see Croyle drop back and wing it 50 times a game behind that O-line???

[Messier]

I'm 100% convinced Herm wants to run an offense that scores 10 points or less a game and doesn't pass the ball more than 5 yards downfield.


Wow! That's just dumb. Yeah, Herm wants to lose every game, or have every game in doubt until the end.

This comment falls in the same category as those that say things like "Carl doesn't want to win, he just wants Arrowhead full."

[BigRock]

Everyone's getting caught up in the phrase "impact player", and I think the point the article made is getting overlooked somewhat. The article isn't using "impact player" to define a future HOFer or a game-changer, it's using that term with as loose a defintion as you can get.

It was used in reference to players who've made an impact on the field. In other words, players better than a Samie Parker or a Kris Wilson, guys who play but who you'd never miss if they were gone.

The point was that we have all of 4 players from Vermeil's years who surpass the very lowly set bar of "better than Parker or Wilson". And that's pitiful.

But there's a whole lot of room between being better than Samie Parker and being on the level of LJ or Jared Allen. And towards the point about the Carl era drafts, I think there's a lot of players who would fall into that range. Maybe not constant Pro Bowlers, but solid players.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Just using the ravens as an example? They are what I would say are the best drafting team the last ten years. Better than any other.

I'm not wasting all night to make a point.

Steelers: 6 in the last 10 years.

Colts: 6 in the last 7 years.

Browns: 3 in the last 4.

Go look at the Chargers draft history over the past 5-7 years.

3/5ths of their starting OL was drafted in the past 4 years.

Some of their best players were second day picks.

They hit on SEVEN picks in 2004 alone.

[FloridaMan88]

No, your 100% wrong.

Is he a little conservative? Hell yes, but of course he wants to score more.

I think he plays things close to the vest now, because it gives the Chiefs the best chance to win RIGHT NOW.

Do you really want to see Croyle drop back and wing it 50 times a game behind that O-line???

He coached the same ultra-conservative way last year, he coached the same ultra-conservative way in New York. This is who is he. He is a gutless coach who may claim he would like to score 24-30 points a game, but his in-game decisions and overall philosophy won't allow it.

Running the football EVERY single first down, running the ball on 3rd and long, throwing 2-3 yard passes... this is who Herm Edwards is.

Anyone who has followed Herm throughout his entire head coaching career knows that.

If Herm was the head coach of the Chiefs 2 years ago when they had one of the best offensive lines in football he still would have coached the way he is coaching this year. The Chiefs offense would still be ranked near the bottom of the league.

This is the type of team he wants to be.

[Dave Lane]

And in two years Herm has found Jarrad Page, Tamba Hali, Dwayne Bowe, Kolby Smith and what might be a good player in Brodie Croyle.

None of which have proven anything...

Dave

[FloridaMan88]

Wow! That's just dumb. Yeah, Herm wants to lose every game, or have every game in doubt until the end.



Did you watch the Jets under Herm? That is the type of team they were.

[Hammock Parties]

Running the football EVERY single first down

Simply not true.

[FloridaMan88]

I really can't believe I'm seeing people on this board with the anti-Herm emblem starting to DEFEND Herm.

Stop rationalizing Herm as a potentially competent coach.

Any house cleaning needs to include the firing of Herm Edwards. Until Herm is out of KC, this franchise will remain garbage.

[FloridaMan88]

Simply not true.

Okay 99.8% of all first downs.

He mixes in a 1 yard pass the other .02% of the time.

[Hammock Parties]

I really can't believe I'm seeing people on this board with the anti-Herm emblem starting to DEFEND Herm.


Herm has merits. I don't like people blaming him for everything. And I don't like people who spout lies about him. People honestly go overboard in their hate of Herm. I admit, I was one of them. I just think you'd have a lot more credibility as an anti-Herm guy if you didn't blame him for everything.

Okay 99.8% of all first downs.

He mixes in a 1 yard pass the other .02% of the time.

And this is the kind of dumb stuff I'm talking about.

[ChiefsCountry]

Dont worry 88 is the idiot who wants Mike Leach as coach.

[FloridaMan88]

And to expand on this... even if Herm decides to open it up a little and become a more balanced football team, this still won't be good enough considering how the NFL is trending today. It is all about being led by a dynamic, explosive passing game (see Green Bay, Dallas, New England and Indy). The top 4 teams in the league are built on explosive passing offenses.

Does anyone really think Herm will ever open it up the point that the Chiefs will be able to throw the ball with the consistency that those teams do?

[DaneMcCloud]

Dude, I didn't say he didn't do anything for the team. But I do believe he deserves a share of the blame for the offensive struggles. If you look at my origional post, it was in response to a post that suggested all of the offensive struggles are a result of the terrible line. I just don't think that is the case.

Herm has his positives, but he does deserve some blame also.

Well personally, I feel that Herm only had two options when he arrived as the new head coach in 2006:

1). Herm was handed a Top-5 but aging offense. He could have drafted first day offensive lineman, WR and a QB in both 2006 & 2007, as well as add more offensive lineman on day two. Slowly transition these new players in late 2006 and have them ready for 2007 to stay in the Top 5. But in the process, continue to totally ignore the defense.

2). Herm was handed the perennial #32 ranked defense, capable of losing any game, regardless of how many points the offense produced. So change the scheme, sign Ty Law, draft defense and essentially ignore the old offensive line in the process. Take a gamble that the defense improves and that the offense can squeeze out one more year of production amongst the old offensive players.

Clearly, Herm and the F.O. chose option two. If the F.O. wanted option 1, they would have chosen Al Saunders as the new head coach.

So as a result, the defense is ranked in the top 9 in the NFL, yet the offense slips all the way to number 30.

Either way, Herm was in a no-win situation.

[Hammock Parties]

And to expand on this... even if Herm decides to open it up a little and become a more balanced football team, this still won't be good enough considering how the NFL is trending today. It is all about being led by a dynamic, explosive passing game (see Green Bay, Dallas, New England and Indy). The top 4 teams in the league are built on explosive passing offenses.

Does anyone really think Herm will ever open it up the point that the Chiefs will be able to throw the ball with the consistency that those teams do?

I think you'll be surprised by his next OC hire.

[FloridaMan88]

People honestly go overboard in their hate of Herm. I admit, I was one of them.

Funny how you put yourself in the past tense, when your avatar remains a picture of Herm Edwards crossed out.

[FloridaMan88]

I think you'll be surprised by his next OC hire.

Hem will never hire a pass-first offensive coordinator because he wouldn't be able to manipulate that type of offensive coordinator.

[Hammock Parties]

Funny how you put yourself in the past tense, when your avatar remains a picture of Herm Edwards crossed out.

Doesn't really mean anything.

This "Herm is the anti-christ of pro football" stuff is just annoying.

[DeezNutz]

I think you'll be surprised by his next OC hire.

All right, I'll bite. Who will it be? Please don't direct me to Warpaint, though.

[Dave Lane]

I wish his next hire was someone that would assassinate him. In 1.6 years he has taken the number 4 O to 30th and declining. The D which was 20th is now 9th big whoop. No one needs to score more than 24 points to win against us so they play conservative too.

Thanks for a couple of players that have some potential. See ya!

Dave

[splatbass]

I'm 100% convinced Herm wants to run an offense that scores 10 points or less a game and doesn't pass the ball more than 5 yards downfield.

All that proves is that you are capable of deluding yourself into believing anything.

[Hammock Parties]

All right, I'll bite. Who will it be? Please don't direct me to Warpaint, though.

I don't know, but I know some names that have been passed around. I have a feeling about one of them. I do know Solari is outta here.

[Buehler445]

Well personally, I feel that Herm only had two options when he arrived as the new head coach in 2006:

1). Herm was handed a Top-5 but aging offense. He could have drafted first day offensive lineman, WR and a QB in both 2006 & 2007, as well as add more offensive lineman on day two. Slowly transition these new players in late 2006 and have them ready for 2007 to stay in the Top 5. But in the process, continue to totally ignore the defense.

2). Herm was handed the perennial #32 ranked defense, capable of losing any game, regardless of how many points the offense produced. So change the scheme, sign Ty Law, draft defense and essentially ignore the old offensive line in the process. Take a gamble that the defense improves and that the offense can squeeze out one more year of production amongst the old offensive players.

Clearly, Herm and the F.O. chose option two. If the F.O. wanted option 1, they would have chosen Al Saunders as the new head coach.

So as a result, the defense is ranked in the top 9 in the NFL, yet the offense slips all the way to number 30.

Either way, Herm was in a no-win situation.

Ya know, I can't argue with that. But we are rebuilding. Judging by the 2006 playoff performance, it was obvious we needed something different offensively, yet we started Huard. Now we have to go into 2008 not knowing if we have a QB. That is unacceptable.

Moreover, there have been several occasions in which the playcalling has been atrocious. We've been over it a thousand times.

The situation you described is correct. But IMO Herm could have done more with this offense bad as it is.

[FloridaMan88]

Doesn't really mean anything.

This "Herm is the anti-christ of pro football" stuff is just annoying.

As long as Herm refuses to join the modern NFL and continues to play with an ultra-conservative philosophy he'll remain the anti-christ of winning MODERN NFL football, especially on offense.

If I had to pick one person between Dictator Carl and Herm to be fired this offseason (and I could only pick ONE person)... I would choose Herm easily.

Herm has made the Chiefs a completely lifeless and dull team. The Chiefs had losing seasons under Marty, Goonther and Vermeil... yet why is it only during a losing season under Herm that the fanbase has grown completely sick of the Chiefs to the point that the sellout streak is in as serious jeapardy as its been in 15 years?

It is because Herm's philosophy is repulsive.

[TRR]

I wish his next hire was someone that would assassinate him. In 1.6 years he has taken the number 4 O to 30th and declining. The D which was 20th is now 9th big whoop. No one needs to score more than 24 points to win against us so they play conservative too.

Thanks for a couple of players that have some potential. See ya!

Dave

It didn't matter what coach came in. Anytime you lose arguably the best LT in franchise history, and arguably the best RG in franchise history, all while having to replace an aging QB, your offense is going to suffer. Vermeil built an offense that was great but aging quickly.

[FloridaMan88]

I don't know, but I know some names that have been passed around. I have a feeling about one of them. I do know Solari is outta here.

Knowing Herm it will probably be...

1) Jimmy Raye
2) John Shoop
3) Mike Shula

Of course Herm's ultimate wet dream of an offensive coordinator is Paul Hackett, but even Dictator Carl would never allow Paul Hackett to be employed by this franchise again.

[Messier]

I'm not wasting all night to make a point.

Steelers: 6 in the last 10 years.

Colts: 6 in the last 7 years.

Browns: 3 in the last 4.

Go look at the Chargers draft history over the past 5-7 years.

3/5ths of their starting OL was drafted in the past 4 years.

Some of their best players were second day picks.

They hit on SEVEN picks in 2004 alone.



The Chargers hit on six picks in 04. I'm not calling Turner a hit till he starts for someone. but you're right the Chargers have had good luck with picks the last five years.

The Chiefs have drafted 6 players over the last 10 years that I would call good to great starters in the leauge.

Right now in the leauge since 2001 there are 12 starters the Chiefs have drafted. Not all are good, but still.

I agree with most that the Chiefs drafts under Vermeil were crap. He reached for players based on need, always a bad move, we traded down and took bad players. But many of the other teams "hits" were high picks, the Chiefs have had one pick in the 10's and one more in the teens, and two years we had no first round pick.

Drafting is a crap shoot, there is no sure thing. You can get close, but close sure things are always top five picks.

[Hammock Parties]

Knowing Herm it will probably be...

1) Jimmy Raye
2) John Shoop
3) Mike Shula


Apparently you don't know Herm very well.

[DeezNutz]

I don't know, but I know some names that have been passed around. I have a feeling about one of them. I do know Solari is outta here.

All right, I'll bite yet again. What names have you heard passed around? I do agree, though, that it's unlikely that Solari will return.

[Hammock Parties]

All right, I'll bite yet again. What names have you heard passed around? I do agree, though, that it's unlikely that Solari will return.

I'm not really at liberty to say.

[Micjones]

Edwards can keep the job warm while he finds talented players for the NEXT HC to coach.

Our problems with evaluating talent during the Vermeil administration handicapped this team something awful.

[ChiefsCountry]

Mike Hermdinger or however you say it.

[DeezNutz]

I'm not really at liberty to say.

Ok. I'll respect this. But Petro has been claiming that we're likely to see a return to the West Coast offense, which is something that we've essentially been doing for the past two seasons with the play calling, drafting, and what not. I hope like hell we're not talking about Jimmy Raye...

[MahiMike]

So the solution is to have Herm in charge of the draft and bring back Vermiel to coach the team?

[FloridaMan88]

I'm not really at liberty to say.

You are not at liberty to say because you really have no clue

[Halfcan]

Herm building a team his way? I thought this team was already playing the Herm way... scoring 5 points a game, zero downfield passing game, ultra-conservative game-plan that has completely bored the fanbase and is on the verge of ending the 16 year home sellout streak and getting every QB who has taken a snap this year injured.

Isn't that the Herm way?

ANY changes should begin with Carl and The entire coaching staff. This teams needs to gutted from top to bottom.

[evolve27]

So the solution is to have Herm in charge of the draft and bring back Vermiel to coach the team?

Bernard Pollard is our new Kris Wilson, except slightly useful on ST only. No thanks to Herm, DV has better sense.