Whitlock: Herm Deserves Time to Rebuild

[ChiefsCountry]

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/395741.html

Now that there is a consensus building that King Carl must be dethroned, let me lend my voice to the people defending Herm Edwards.

This city has not been fair to Herm.

We want to throw Herm out with the King who brought him to town. That’s not right.

And let me add this so that all of our chips are on the table: Dissatisfaction with Herm is not a racially divisive issue in this town. I spend more time at my barbershop defending Herm than I do ridiculing Carl Peterson. Thanksgiving weekend I had to loud talk my Aunt Mae to get her off Herm’s back.

Kansas Citians of every stripe seem to have a problem with Herm Edwards and his run-and-punt offense.

The man deserves four years. His resume demands that. The fact that he backed this franchise into the playoffs last season dictates that we remain patient. The problems he inherited thanks to the staleness of Peterson’s personnel department and coaching-staff leftovers make a compelling case to stick with Herm for at least two more years.

Herm has his shortcomings. Every coach does. He and Dick “Father Time” Curl struggle with clock management. Herm is not an offensive-minded coach.

What Herm can do is identify talent, develop it, motivate players and construct a strong defense. That’s enough to be a highly successful head football coach. With the help of the right general manager, Herm can find the proper mixture of offensive coaches, rebuild KC’s offensive line and develop a second receiver to play alongside Dwayne Bowe.

Finding a head coach is not an easy thing to do. You don’t give up on one who has four playoff appearances without ever being blessed with a franchise quarterback. Getting to the playoffs with Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair and Kurt Warner in their primes isn’t sport’s most difficult task. If those guys don’t get hurt, you’re pretty much assured of making the postseason.

Herm hasn’t found his guy, so he looks really awkward at times. Bill Belichick and Tony Dungy appeared awkward and confused offensively when they worked with Bernie Kosar, Vinny Testaverde, Trent Dilfer, Shaun King and Brad Johnson in Cleveland and Tampa Bay, respectively.

Am I calling Edwards the next Belichick or Dungy? No. But a head coach has to be really good at something until the other side of the ball figures itself out. Belichick, Dungy and Edwards can coach the defensive side of the ball.

Most “great” head coaches get lucky. Take Denver’s Mike Shanahan. What has he done since John Elway retired? Shanahan has never been on the same level with Bill Parcells, Mike Holmgren or Dick Vermeil.

Parcells won Super Bowls with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler, lost a Super Bowl with Drew Bledsoe and identified and developed Tony Romo in Dallas. Holmgren spotted Brett Favre and then later turned Matt Hasselbeck into a Super Bowl quarterback in Seattle. Vermeil created Ron Jaworski and Kurt Warner.

Herm Edwards hasn’t proved to be one of the game’s all-time great coaches. But most coaches aren’t. They have their highs and lows. They go as far as their quarterback will take them. There are a lot of Norv Turners in the NFL, coordinators masquerading as head coaches.

Edwards is a head coach. He just needs to catch a break at quarterback.

I’m hopeful that a new offensive coordinator (retain Mike Solari as O-line coach), a legitimate quarterbacks coach (dump Father Time), three new offensive linemen and a free-agent quarterback to compete with Brodie Croyle will fix Kansas City’s offense.

That sounds like a lot. It’s not really. The Chiefs have several extra draft picks this offseason. If they keep losing, they’ll have a shot at Michigan left tackle Jake Long, who would be an instant upgrade. If Kansas City is in position to snag Long, then the rest of the Chiefs’ draft and free-agent priorities become much easier. Unless a strong QB prospect falls into their lap in the second round, the Chiefs just take the best receivers and corners on the board in the middle of the draft and try to find another O-line starter in free-agency.

We’ve wanted a true rebuilding year for a long time. We have one. Let’s give Herm a chance to rebuild. We have no real reason to doubt his eye for talent.

[Reerun_KC]

No he doesnt.... He has no business being an NFL coach.

He had his time in NYJ and they were left in nothing but ruins....

He needs to go while we have some youth and picks.

[Chiefs_5627]

No he doesnt.... He has no business being an NFL coach.

He had his time in NYJ and they were left in nothing but ruins....

He needs to go while we have some youth and picks.


They went 10 - 6 the following year he left.
;)

[Skip Towne]

Herm had 5 years to rebuild the Jets and he failed miserably. He's gone nothing but downhill in KC. He has a losing record as a HC. I've seen enough of him. Marty took over a team who had 8 wins over two seasons and immediately went 8-7-1. The next year he went 11-5. Herms teams go the opposite direction. He is not an NFL head coach.

[Chiefs_5627]

Herm had 5 years to rebuild the Jets and he failed miserably. He's gone nothing but downhill in KC. He has a losing record as a HC. I've seen enough of him. Marty took over a team who had 8 wins over two seasons and immediately went 8-7-1. The next year he went 11-5. Herms teams go the opposite direction. He is not an NFL head coach.


Went to the playoffs 3 of 5.

[Reerun_KC]

They went 10 - 6 the following year he left.
;)

Oh happy ****ing day!

:Lin:

[kcxiv]

No he doesnt.... He has no business being an NFL coach.

He had his time in NYJ and they were left in nothing but ruins....

He needs to go while we have some youth and picks.
Not really, he went through 5 qb's the next year with a healthy team got to the play offs as well i beleive.

I am not a Herm fan, but may as well give em another year.

[Chiefs_5627]

Oh happy ****ing day!

:Lin:


Sorry, i didnt mean to make your previous post seem misinformed. ;)

[Hammock Parties]

Good article by Whitlock, but I think it will become apparent at the end of year three that Herm is never going to do anything here. I see our ceiling as 9-7 next year.

I’m hopeful that a new offensive coordinator (retain Mike Solari as O-line coach), a legitimate quarterbacks coach (dump Father Time), three new offensive linemen and a free-agent quarterback to compete with Brodie Croyle will fix Kansas City’s offense.

This is the only part of the article I take issue with. I doubt very seriously that Solari will allow himself to be treated like Gunther (foot shuffling porter), and Dick Curl will be Herm's righthand man until death does them part.

[Reerun_KC]

Went to the playoffs 3 of 5.

HOLY SHIT, someone get Canton on the phone...

He beat the Colts in the playoffs one time!

He out Martyed Marty!

Move over Bill Walsh, here comes the man that went to the playoffs 3 times in 5 years!

[Skip Towne]

Went to the playoffs 3 of 5.
While going 9-7 with the other guys players. Hey, the guy is a sub .500 coach. I think we have had enough mediocrity. Herm is sub mediocrity. He is a losing coach. Spin that!

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Good article. I'm glad to see Jason is using his voice to speak sensibly. It's time for Carl to go. I'm not so sure about Herm. He has his flaws without doubt, but I think if he can be convinced to let an established OC run the offense, we could be in for something special.

[Rain Man]

Let me think about it.





No.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Good article by Whitlock, but I think it will become apparent at the end of year three that Herm is never going to do anything here. I see our ceiling as 9-7 next year.



This is the only part of the article I take issue with. I doubt very seriously that Solari will allow himself to be treated like Gunther (foot shuffling porter), and Dick Curl will be Herm's righthand man until death does them part.


Solari may leave, but he'll be going back to a line coach wherever he lands. It won't be as an OC.

[Chiefs_5627]

HOLY SHIT, someone get Canton on the phone...

He beat the Colts in the playoffs one time!

He out Martyed Marty!

Move over Bill Walsh, here comes the man that went to the playoffs 3 times in 5 years!


I guess when you have nothing else to say you babble huh? Great! ROFL

[Reerun_KC]

Good article. I'm glad to see Jason is using his voice to speak sensibly. It's time for Carl to go. I'm not so sure about Herm. He has his flaws without doubt, but I think if he can be convinced to let an established OC run the offense, we could be in for something special.

Herms Ego wont allow it...

Herm will not have anyone in here that will take the spotlight off of him. He is in charge, he dictates, either you conform or your gone...

[Chiefs_5627]

While going 9-7 with the other guys players. Hey, the guy is a sub .500 coach. I think we have had enough mediocrity. Herm is sub mediocrity. He is a losing coach. Spin that!


Won more p/o games than we have in 15 years...SPIN THAT! :)

[Reerun_KC]

I guess when you have nothing else to say you babble huh? Great! ROFL

Pretty much /Jim Beam

[Hammock Parties]

Let me think about it.





No.

Do you really want to blow it all up in the middle of the plan? Herm IS trying to rebuild the roster and doing a decent job.

If you truly hate Herm, let work out two more drafts, and then led a real head coach use his talent.

[FloridaMan88]

Herm is a good scout and a lousy head coach. The problem with the Chiefs is they are decimated by the Peter Principle... guys in over their heads at their current positions.

Herm as a head coach when he is better suited to be a scout, Slowlari as an offensive coordinator when he is better suited to be an offensive line coach, Curled Dick Face as an offensive assistant on an NFL team when he's better suited to having his diapers changed at an old person's home, Dictator Carl as GM/CEO/President when he's better suited to being exclusively on the business/marketing side of the franchise.

[Reerun_KC]

Won more p/o games than we have in 15 years...SPIN THAT! :)

Been to the same amount of championship games and superbowls as we have in the last 15 years.... SPIN THAT!

I guess if you want playoff appearances and failures, then Herm is the man... Hell lets bring back the ultimate playoff failure, Marty.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Do you really want to blow it all up in the middle of the plan? Herm IS trying to rebuild the roster and doing a decent job.

If you truly hate Herm, let work out two more drafts, and then led a real head coach use his talent.



That is a WORST case scenario. You should change your avatar to the Carl one Gochiefs. You see the writing on the wall.

[Reerun_KC]

Herm is a good scout and a lousy head coach. The problem with the Chiefs is they are decimated by the Peter Principle... guys in over their heads at their current positions.

Herm as a head coach when he is better suited to be a scout, Slowlari as an offensive coordinator when he is better suited to be an offensive line coach, Curled Dick Face as an offensive assistant on an NFL team when he's better suited to having his diapers changed at an old person's home, Dictator Carl as GM/CEO/President when he's better suited to being exclusively on the business/marketing side of the franchise.

Nice post.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Herm is a good scout and a lousy head coach. The problem with the Chiefs is they are decimated by the Peter Principle... guys in over their heads at their current positions.

Herm as a head coach when he is better suited to be a scout, Slowlari as an offensive coordinator when he is better suited to be an offensive line coach, Curled Dick Face as an offensive assistant on an NFL team when he's better suited to having his diapers changed at an old person's home, Dictator Carl as GM/CEO/President when he's better suited to being exclusively on the business/marketing side of the franchise.


You of ALL people should have the King Carl avatar instead of Herm's.

[Hammock Parties]

That is a WORST case scenario. You should change your avatar to the Carl one Gochiefs. You see the writing on the wall.

No, I've soured on Herm. I don't believe he's taking us anywhere, ever. We might get to the playoffs again but we won't go anywhere. I don't like Carl but he is as good as gone anyway, so it is futile to hate him. Herm, on the other hand, stands to screw things up in KC for a long time because I know Clark likes him.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

No, I've soured on Herm. I don't believe he's taking us anywhere, ever. We might get to the playoffs again but we won't go anywhere. I don't like Carl but he is as good as gone anyway, so it is futile to hate him. Herm, on the other hand, stands to screw things up in KC for a long time because I know Clark likes him.



You're confident Carl is gone at the end of this year?

[FloridaMan88]

Do you really want to blow it all up in the middle of the plan? Herm IS trying to rebuild the roster and doing a decent job.

If you truly hate Herm, let work out two more drafts, and then led a real head coach use his talent.

What has Herm built thus far? He backed into the playoffs last year with the remains of Vermeil's team.

What Herm has "built" thus far is the worst offense in the NFL and an average (at best) defense that has been gashed multiple times this season.... and not to mention a horrible special teams unit, with the exception of the punter.

Stop acting like Herm is building something that is actually going to lead to a legit contender. And now the Chiefs are putting their faith in Herm to rebuild an offense.. that is like asking Dumbya and Dumsfeld to run a war.

[Chiefs_5627]

Been to the same amount of championship games and superbowls as we have in the last 15 years.... SPIN THAT!

I guess if you want playoff appearances and failures, then Herm is the man... Hell lets bring back the ultimate playoff failure, Marty.


No lets bring back DV, his offense was your super bowl, yes?

[Skip Towne]

Won more p/o games than we have in 15 years...SPIN THAT! :)
That is exactly why we want rid of losers. We have had our share. Herm just wandered into his limited playoff success, he didn't build it. Herm is a losing NFL HC. How the hell do you get in the playoffs with a losing record? Spin that.

[FloridaMan88]

You of ALL people should have the King Carl avatar instead of Herm's.

I hate Herm worse than Dictator Carl

[Hammock Parties]

What has Herm built thus far?

He IS assembling a talented roster.

[Hammock Parties]

You're confident Carl is gone at the end of this year?

Oh, no. But he's outta here after 2009 anyway. Herm might be here for 10 years. I can see it.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I hate Herm worse than Dictator Carl


Wow. I didn't know there was a hate that went deeper than the hate in your heart for Carl Peterson. I really didn't know it was possible.

[Chiefspants]

Well, I would rather see carl go than Herm, but I wouldn't mind seeing Herm leaving, he makes decisions like a five year old, and has about the same creativity too.

[stumppy]

Looks like Whitlock wrote that one almost entirely from posts on the planet.

[Chiefs_5627]

That is exactly why we want rid of losers. We have had our share. Herm just wandered into his limited playoff success, he didn't build it. Herm is a losing NFL HC. How the hell do you get in the playoffs with a losing record? Spin that.


First explain to me what youre talking about "losing record"? Id spin but i dont want you to fall off. ;)

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Oh, no. But he's outta here after 2009 anyway. Herm might be here for 10 years. I can see it.



You think that if he loses for the next 2 years that Clark would keep him? If so, Clark is a ****ing idiot and should sell the team. I'm all for keeping Herm through next year. If he doesn't produce results, it's time to go. If Carl is here through 2009, Herm will be too.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Looks like Whitlock wrote that one almost entirely from posts on the planet.


I thought the same thing. He's on my team though, so it's all good.

[Hammock Parties]

I dunno. I'm pretty tired talking about this issue, though. The offseason can't get here fast enough.

[Chiefs_5627]

I dunno. I'm pretty tired talking about this issue, though. The offseason can't get here fast enough.


WORD.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON CHIEFSPLANET, ASSHOLES!!!!!!

[Chiefs_5627]

THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON CHIEFSPLANET ASSHOLES!!!!!!


Apparently bothering you. ;)

[Mr. Flopnuts]

THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON CHIEFSPLANET ASSHOLES!!!!!!


Sorry, wasn't trying to kill the thread.

[Skip Towne]

First explain to me what youre talking about "losing record"? Id spin but i dont want you to fall off. ;)
I'm talking about Herm being 4 games under .500 as a HC. He made the playoffs with another coaches players then nosedived. Just like he has done in KC. If you don't know things like this maybe you should S_T_F_U.

[Chiefs_5627]

Sorry, wasn't trying to kill the thread.


Look up buddy. :)

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Apparently bothering you. ;)


I'm talking about Herm being 4 games under .500 as a HC. He made the playoffs with another coaches players then nosedived. Just like he has done in KC. If you don't know things like this maybe you should S_T_F_U.


Not me.

[Chiefs_5627]

I'm talking about Herm being 4 games under .500 as a HC. He made the playoffs with another coaches players then nosedived. Just like he has done in KC. If you don't know things like this maybe you should S_T_F_U.


LMAO, soooooo agitated, exlax should help your problem friend.

He succeeded in his first year without 2 of the biggest cornerstones at that period (Willie, and Trent, after the first game/ honorable mention:T-Rich, Welbourne), so does that mean he broke the "streak" he was on or............

[Chiefs_5627]

Not me.


Thats good. ;)

[Micjones]

If Herm were a better in-game coach I might agree that he deserves more time.

He hasn't proven he can manage what he has while he rebuilds. I'm sorry, but he's coaching one level higher than he should be.

[Chiefs_5627]

If Herm were a better in-game coach I might agree that he deserves more time.

He hasn't proven he can manage what he has while he rebuilds. I'm sorry, but he's coaching one level higher than he should be.


Not saying the guy isnt foolish with offense but an oline would REALLY help with that.

[Bearcat]

Getting to the playoffs with Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair and Kurt Warner in their primes isn’t sport’s most difficult task.

Herm hasn’t found his guy, so he looks really awkward at times. Bill Belichick and Tony Dungy appeared awkward and confused offensively when they worked with Bernie Kosar, Vinny Testaverde, Trent Dilfer, Shaun King and Brad Johnson in Cleveland and Tampa Bay, respectively.

There are a lot of Norv Turners in the NFL, coordinators masquerading as head coaches.

Edwards is a head coach. He just needs to catch a break at quarterback.


Rex Grossman, Jake Delhomme, Rich Gannon, the same Brad Johnson he mentions, Kerry Collins, Trent Dilfer, and a young Ben Roethlisberger.

I agree that some coaches get lucky, and that some are called great because their QB makes everyone looks good, but comparing Belichick and Dungy with Herm is close to implying that Herm needs a HoF QB to win. Well, I don't think Belichick needs one, and Dungy certainly didn't need one to win at Tampa... he just didn't win a Superbowl. Also, with the list of QBs that have played in SBs in the past 7 years, I think there are many coaches out there that can win consecutive playoff games without a HoF quarterback.

If Herm changes his philosophy once we have more talent on offense, then I'm all for it... but sometimes, even when you don't think your QB can make that throw, or you don't think your QB is Peyton Manning, you still have to give him a chance to win. And if Herm had Peyton Manning, would Herm hand the offense to him?



No, I've soured on Herm.

Well, now I'm undecided... :evil: :p

[KCFalcon59]

Herm must win the division next year to convince me he is worth keeping. That is an accomplishment.

[Skip Towne]

I've been a fan of pro football for more than 50 years. In that time, I've never seen a coach lose two time outs on one play. I've never seen a coach take a knee with 1:15 left and all 3 time outs left. I've never seen a coach with such poor clock management skills. I've never seen a coach run three straight draw plays. Until this idiot showed up. I'd say he was stuck in the 80's except nobody did ignorant shit like that even in the 80's.

[Micjones]

Not saying the guy isnt foolish with offense but an oline would REALLY help with that.

Indeed, but he hasn't proven he can manage what he has.
If he could defer to a real Offensive Coordinator I could get behind keeping him around.

He's a great evaluator of talent and a good defensive mind.
He's stubborn though... And that's led to bad decisions.

[Skip Towne]

If Herm were a better in-game coach I might agree that he deserves more time.

He hasn't proven he can manage what he has while he rebuilds. I'm sorry, but he's coaching one level higher than he should be.
Yeah, he might be a good DC but we will never know since he has never been one. He might be coaching two levels higher than he should be.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I've been a fan of pro football for more than 50 years. In that time, I've never seen a coach lose two time outs on one play. I've never seen a coach take a knee with 1:15 left and all 3 time outs left. I've never seen a coach with such poor clock management skills. I've never seen a coach run three straight draw plays. Until this idiot showed up. I'd say he was stuck in the 80's except nobody did ignorant shit like that even in the 80's.


It's a good post. Even though I'm behind Herm for now, this is a solid post. Rep

[DaneMcCloud]

Well, I don't think Belichick needs one, and Dungy certainly didn't need one to win at Tampa... he just didn't win a Superbowl.

Belichick was awful in Cleveland and the year before Brady, he was 5-11.

I'd say he needed Brady.

Dungy built a strong defense in Tampa but the offense was awful. Just freakin' awful. It took Gruden and Brad Johnson to get them over the hump.

Dungy really hadn't accomplished much in Indy before finally winning the Super Bowl. That team was so loaded and had been so loaded for so long, they probably blew a few chances to win a Super Bowl.

Much like Cowher in Pittsburgh.

[Bearcat]

Not saying the guy isnt foolish with offense but an oline would REALLY help with that.

I think he is... we've scored more than 10 points in the first half once this season, and that was against Cincinnatti. We had 4 games in a row, until scoring 10 vs. Oakland and SD the past two weeks, where we score no more than 7 in the first half (not including the safety vs. Denver).

He plays down to the opponent in the first half, and hopes to win the game on a big play in the 4th quarter. "Aggressive" means throwing it 5 times in a row regardless of the situation. If he was playing to win from the start of the game, you would think he'd luck into scoring 2 touchdowns in the first half once this season.

Like I said in my previous post... if he truly believes his offense is only capable of this output, so he doesn't want to risk extra turnovers and what not, I could deal with it now if I had hope he would change in the future. I don't. The first words out of his mouth after every press conference is his true philosphy on football, and I don't think it has anything to do with the players on the field.. it's always "if it wasn't for that one turnover," or "we were in a defensive battle that was going to go down to one play at the end". Not that he had no desire to drive down the field and win the game. :banghead:

[Crush]

I've been a fan of pro football for more than 50 years. In that time, I've never seen a coach lose two time outs on one play. I've never seen a coach take a knee with 1:15 left and all 3 time outs left. I've never seen a coach with such poor clock management skills. I've never seen a coach run three straight draw plays. Until this idiot showed up. I'd say he was stuck in the 80's except nobody did ignorant shit like that even in the 80's.


Rep

[DaneMcCloud]

I've been a fan of pro football for more than 50 years. In that time, I've never seen a coach lose two time outs on one play. I've never seen a coach take a knee with 1:15 left and all 3 time outs left. I've never seen a coach with such poor clock management skills. I've never seen a coach run three straight draw plays. Until this idiot showed up. I'd say he was stuck in the 80's except nobody did ignorant shit like that even in the 80's.

I guessed you missed HOF coach Joe Gibbs actually call two timeouts in a row and LOSE the football game because of it.

For the record, Herm didn't call two time-outs in a row. One time-out, one challenge.

That is VERY different. Stop confusing the two.

[Chiefs_5627]

I think he is... we've scored more than 10 points in the first half once this season, and that was against Cincinnatti. We had 4 games in a row, until scoring 10 vs. Oakland and SD the past two weeks, where we score no more than 7 in the first half (not including the safety vs. Denver).

He plays down to the opponent in the first half, and hopes to win the game on a big play in the 4th quarter. "Aggressive" means throwing it 5 times in a row regardless of the situation. If he was playing to win from the start of the game, you would think he'd luck into scoring 2 touchdowns in the first half once this season.

Like I said in my previous post... if he truly believes his offense is only capable of this output, so he doesn't want to risk extra turnovers and what not, I could deal with it now if I had hope he would change in the future. I don't. The first words out of his mouth after every press conference is his true philosphy on football, and I don't think it has anything to do with the players on the field.. it's always "if it wasn't for that one turnover," or "we were in a defensive battle that was going to go down to one play at the end". Not that he had no desire to drive down the field and win the game. :banghead:


I wasnt commending Herm for his offensive prowess buddy. ;)

I more less said he IS foolish when it comes to O.

[Chiefs_5627]

I guessed you missed HOF coach Joe Gibbs actually call two timeouts in a row and LOSE the football game because of it.

For the record, Herm didn't call two time-outs in a row. One time-out, one challenge.

That is VERY different. Stop confusing the two.


Agreed, someone told him to challenge the play. Thats why coaches wear those headsets, so they can get those "go-aheads".

[Chiefs_5627]

Rep



Not to sound like a complete idiot but whats the deal with the REP? Im new to the Planet and the previous forums i was at didnt have that.

[Rasputin]

I disagree adimatly about having a FA QB to compete with Brodie. First of all Brodie has not had a fair chance for success with this O-line & second I'm sick and tired of other teams reject QBs. If they are not good enough for that team then why should they be good for us? I'd be ok if we drafted a highly tallented sleeper QB in the draft or a FA just for back up purposes but not to have as a look over the shoulder if he throws an INT. Brodie is still young and is going to make mistakes, but so what he has to learn the game.

I like Brodie & I like having our own home grown QB for a change. Give Brodie the protection and a long term growing period and just see how good he gets. Brodie to D Bowe is going to be huge and if they take that away then what.

Most franchise win Super Bowls with their own QB from the draft. Some exeptions yes over the years but the majority of teams win with their own home grown QB. Brodie has all the potential to be great but he needs the opportunity to do so. & the most domminant teams "Dynasty" teams have franchise QBs from the draft, not FA, and that has been a proven formula for decades of the NFL.

[Skip Towne]

I think it is particularly amusing that Herm wants to keep it close and wait for the other team to make a mistake. What a joke that is. What coach makes more mistakes than Herm? I'm sure the other teams can't wait to match wits with Herm.

[Chiefs_5627]

I disagree adimatly about having a FA QB to compete with Brodie. First of all Brodie has not had a fair chance for success with this O-line & second I'm sick and tired of other teams reject QBs. If they are not good enough for that team then why should they be good for us? I'd be ok if we drafted a highly tallented sleeper QB in the draft or a FA just for back up purposes but not to have as a look over the shoulder if he throws an INT. Brodie is still young and is going to make mistakes, but so what he has to learn the game.

I like Brodie & I like having our own home grown QB for a change. Give Brodie the protection and a long term growing period and just see how good he gets. Brodie to D Bowe is going to be huge and if they take that away then what.

Most franchise win Super Bowls with their own QB from the draft. Some exeptions yes over the years but the majority of teams win with their own home grown QB. Brodie has all the potential to be great but he needs the opportunity to do so. & the most domminant teams "Dynasty" teams have franchise QBs from the draft, not FA, and that has been a proven formula for decades of the NFL.


Very much agreed. We havent seen enough of Brodie to make another QB pick. I think oline should be the focus, first and foremost.

[Buehler445]

I guessed you missed HOF coach Joe Gibbs actually call two timeouts in a row and LOSE the football game because of it.

For the record, Herm didn't call two time-outs in a row. One time-out, one challenge.

That is VERY different. Stop confusing the two.

Herm LOST 2.

Gibbs tried to call two but you can't so he only LOST one.

It doesn't matter if Herm called two in a row, he still LOST 2.

[Chiefs_5627]

Herm LOST 2.

Gibbs tried to call two but you can't so he only LOST one.

It doesn't matter if Herm called two in a row, he still LOST 2.


Gibbs couldnt but still drew the 15 yard penalty because of it which turned a 50+ yard FG into a 35(ish) for the other team.

[DaneMcCloud]

Herm LOST 2.

Gibbs tried to call two but you can't so he only LOST one.

It doesn't matter if Herm called two in a row, he still LOST 2.

Gibbs was penalized 15 yards. A 40 yard field goal became a 25 yard field goal.

Herm spent one time-out before the play, then was told to challenge. If he had won the challenge, he wouldn't have lost the second time-out.

That's not the same as calling two consecutive time-outs.

[Buehler445]

Gibbs couldnt but still drew the 15 yard penalty because of it which turned a 50+ yard FG into a 35(ish) for the other team.

Agreed. Both Bonehead plays, but Herm might still be the only shmo to lose 2 on one play.

[Crush]

Not to sound like a complete idiot but whats the deal with the REP? Im new to the Planet and the previous forums i was at didnt have that.


Rep is what it is. I'm not trying to give a dick answer, but I have no real way to explain it.

[Chiefs_5627]

Gibbs was penalized 15 yards. A 40 yard field goal became a 25 yard field goal.

Herm spent one time-out before the play, then was told to challenge. If he had won the challenge, he wouldn't have lost the second time-out.

That's not the same as calling two consecutive time-outs.


Agreed, except it was a 51 yarder turned into a 36.


"The 15 yard penalty had the end result of making the Bills 51-yard field goal attempt a 36 yarder"

[Chiefs_5627]

Rep is what it is.


I get WHAT it is, but how is it givin? The specifics man. ;)

[Tribal Warfare]

The problem with Herm is simply this he's too stubborn to recognize his shortcomings, and all good coaches have that ability to learn themselves besides teaching. Herm lacks the learning quotient intangible which correlates to his inability to take responsibility when the team is noticeably flawed .

[Smed1065]

That is exactly why we want rid of losers. We have had our share. Herm just wandered into his limited playoff success, he didn't build it. Herm is a losing NFL HC. How the hell do you get in the playoffs with a losing record? Spin that.

So it is Herms fault for our playoff loss records based on the one common denominator for many years?

I am not convinced either way about Herm but feel the backlash is the GM and team record prior to his arrival instead of his time here.

If you change the HC every 2 years because they did not go to the championship game, it will always be the same results. This is the NFL. IMHO. Different ideas, players and schemes for most usually, successful or not.

Unless lightning strikes.

I think Bill Cowher would be great as a HC but also see his tenure before a SB run.

I feel most people are tired of reasons and excuses because of our record for 20 years. They want to try something different, even if a new HC is not the proven factor in the equation, every 2 years.

Playing young players and good drafting is different but not what fans want to do. They seem to want to change coaches and GM while hoping it fixes a long term problem because it is something different at this point.

Herm does suck as a game time coach but they all have flaws unless they win it all.

Why not change the common denominator and not the HC every 2 years?
Which is very unproven in the NFL in 2 years or less for a HC winning the division game much less a SB?

This is based on FACTS and stats in the NFL beside my view.

[Buehler445]

I get WHAT it is, but how is it givin? The specifics man. ;)

You can contribute to someones reputation.

You add to someone elses by clicking the little yelling head by the edit/del button. You check yours by clicking under My Profile under Planet at the top.

[Crush]

I get WHAT it is, but how is it givin? The specifics man. ;)


Ah, there is a little icon by the edit button that will allow you to dispense the rep.

[Chiefs_5627]

You can contribute to someones reputation.

You add to someone elses by clicking the little yelling head by the edit/del button. You check yours by clicking under My Profile under Planet at the top.



AHHH there it is, thanks man. Here's some for your trouble. :)

[Buehler445]

AHHH there it is, thanks man. Here's some for your trouble. :)

No prob.

[Chiefs_5627]

So it is Herms fault for our playoff loss records based on the one common denominator for many years?

I am not convinced either way about Herm but feel the backlash is the GM and team record prior to his arrival instead of his time here.

If you change the HC every 2 years because they did not go to the championship game, it will always be the same results. This is the NFL. IMHO. Different ideas, players and schemes for most usually, successful or not.

Unless lightning strikes.

I think Bill Cowher would be great as a HC but also see his tenure before a SB run.

I feel most people are tired of reasons and excuses because of our record for 20 years. They want to try something different, even if a new HC is not the proven factor in the equation, every 2 years.

Playing young players and good drafting is different but not what fans want to do. They seem to want to change coaches and GM while hoping it fixes a long term problem because it is something different at this point.

Herm does suck as a game time coach but they all have flaws unless they win it all.

Why not change the common denominator and not the HC every 2 years?
Which is very unproven in the NFL in 2 years or less for a HC winning the division game much less a SB?

This is based on FACTS and stats in the NFL beside my view.



Very nice post. We cant keep blowing the team up or we'll be the raiders. Dont get me wrong CP is well past my last nerve but as long as HE is here we might as well see what happens.

[Buehler445]

I know when I lost my faith in Herm. It was in this year's Indy game. It was 3rd and 18 with 7:35 left in the game. Herm ran a draw play for 2 yards. As soon as I saw Kolby take the ball, I screamed at the TV, "You are punting to Peyton Manning you ****ing idiot!" and Manning took all the time and won the game.

Yeah, lots of coaches run the ball on third and long, but punting to Manning with the game on the line is a collosal mistake. All to gain 2 yards for your punter. You have to nut up and take a shot. If you take a sack for 5 yards, your kicker has to kick it 7 additoinal yards oh god! You have to ****ing try to win the game. You just have to.

To that point, I had put up with his BS, even though starting Huard pissed me off to no end. But that was it. There is most definitely a time to run the ball, play for field position, and let your defense do your thing. But there is also a time to exercise intestinal fortitude, put the ball in your playmakers hands and try to win the game.

Herm may make a decent coach someday, but at this point, he isn't it. All we can hope for is a offensive genius, because I don't think he's headed anywhere soon.

[BigRock]

He made the playoffs with another coaches players then nosedived. Just like he has done in KC. If you don't know things like this maybe you should S_T_F_U.

The best team Herm had in NY was the 2004 squad. They went 10-6 and were a hair away from the AFC title game. There were only a handful of players on that roster that were also on the Jets roster in Bill Parcells final year and/or Al Groh's only year. You can see this for yourself, if you wish, at the following links:

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/1999-nyj
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2000-nyj
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2004-nyj

These facts disprove two different notions: 1) that Herm's teams got worse as time went on, and 2) that Herm only won with another coach's players. In reality, his best team in NY came 4 years after he took over as the head coach, and it was a roster assembled almost entirely during Herm's tenure.

[ChiefsCountry]

He made the playoffs with another coaches players then nosedived.

His best year as Jets head coach was his fourth. That was his team's players by then.

[Tribal Warfare]

All we can hope for is a offensive genius, because I don't think he's headed anywhere soon.


Won't happen, because Herm truly believes that this offensive system is absolutely fine.

[Buehler445]

Won't happen, because Herm truly believes that this offensive system is absolutely fine.

Thus why I said "hope" and not "work towards" or something similar.

[Tribal Warfare]

Thus why I said "hope" and not "work towards" or something similar.


The only hope of an offensive guru coming in and change things is if he is force feed one, and was told specifically not to mess with him. With the current regime that's not happening. Which is why hope is dead until Peterson is fired or retires.

[Chiefs_5627]

The best team Herm had in NY was the 2004 squad. They went 10-6 and were a hair away from the AFC title game. There were only a handful of players on that roster that were also on the Jets roster in Bill Parcells final year and/or Al Groh's only year. You can see this for yourself, if you wish, at the following links:

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/1999-nyj
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2000-nyj
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2004-nyj

These facts disprove two different notions: 1) that Herm's teams got worse as time went on, and 2) that Herm only won with another coach's players. In reality, his best team in NY came 4 years after he took over as the head coach, and it was a roster assembled almost entirely during Herm's tenure.



Nice post...oh crap im suppose to s_t_f_u i think...... :)

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Nice post...oh crap im suppose to s_t_f_u i think...... :)

STFU, n00b!

[Rasputin]

I think Herm is very flustrated with the O-line and doesn't trust them so it has been a strain on the whole team and Coaches.

Couldn't we have found a better more duriable RT than Kyle Turley? I meen the guy had a bad back, (I give credit for Turley to try to make a comeback), but not at the expence of getting our QB killed. Turley didn't hack it last year what made them think that he could hold up this year. Very bad move imo & or just lazy in not looking hard enough for a better RT. I blame both CP and Herm for Kyle Turley.

[RustShack]

I give this article and A++. Go Chiefs!

[ChiefsCountry]

I think Herm is very flustrated with the O-line and doesn't trust them so it has been a strain on the whole team and Coaches.

Couldn't we have found a better more duriable RT than Kyle Turley? I meen the guy had a bad back, (I give credit for Turley to try to make a comeback), but not at the expence of getting our QB killed. Turley didn't hack it last year what made them think that he could hold up this year. Very bad move imo & or just lazy in not looking hard enough for a better RT. I blame both CP and Herm for Kyle Turley.

Turley was brought in to be the backup to Chris Terry.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'm talking about Herm being 4 games under .500 as a HC. He made the playoffs with another coaches players then nosedived. Just like he has done in KC. If you don't know things like this maybe you should S_T_F_U.

Under Dick Vermeil, the Chiefs were 13 - 16 after 29 games.

As far as Herm making the playoffs with another coach's player, you're just simply incorrect.

[HonestChieffan]

Herms approach helps me understand the music selections inside Arrowhead on game day. 80's Music. 80's football.

JW....dont deflate my hate balloon. Let me hate herm.

[TN_Chief]

I did the chart last year, it's got to be around here somewhere...in NY, Herm's teams got progressively worse every year but 1 (his second year IIRC). The trend was clearly down.

Whitlock is high. You don't just look at what he's done here, you look at his entire body of work. And it's not good.

[HonestChieffan]

I did the chart last year, it's got to be around here somewhere...in NY, Herm's teams got progressively worse every year but 1 (his second year IIRC). The trend was clearly down.

Whitlock is high. You don't just look at what he's done here, you look at his entire body of work. And it's not good.


Whitlocks not good? Get real.

[2112]

Not saying the guy isnt foolish with offense but an oline would REALLY help with that.
It doesn't matter, he could have the greatest roster in the history of football and this dumb mother****er will still coach the same way, not to lose and terrified about turnovers..

I know, I know. but he went to the playoffs 4-6 years! blah blah blah

[2112]

Actually there was an interesting debate on my board about Herm doing ''a great job'' in KC this year, between legendary internet Herm defender nyjunc vs Sperm Edwards and MSGold.


It starts on post 49

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45070&page=2

[Skip Towne]

Under Dick Vermeil, the Chiefs were 13 - 16 after 29 games.

As far as Herm making the playoffs with another coach's player, you're just simply incorrect.
Then how do you explain a coach who is 4 games under .500 making the playoffs 4 times? Twice in his first year, with another guy's players.

[007]

all the bashing of Herm for his clock management abilities and JW puts out an article like this? WTF?

I want the entire FO gone and do a REAL rebuild. I can live with 2-3 really pathetic seasons if it will get us to the promised land.

[TEX]

With the help of the right general manager, Herm can find the proper mixture of offensive coaches, rebuild KC’s offensive line and develop a second receiver to play alongside Dwayne Bowe.

_____________________________________________________________

First of all, Carl isn't going anywhere. :banghead:

But for argument's sake - What makes Whitock believe this? For all the good points about Herm being able to build a defense,there are just as many to support the case that he can not do the same with an offense. If you're gonna base one side of an argument on past history, you need to do the same with the other. It's more likely that under Herm, we'll "rebuild" only half a team and plod around between 9-7, 10-6 for years trying to find an offense to compliment a defense. We've had enough of that to last a lifetime.

[Chiefnj2]

Under Dick Vermeil, the Chiefs were 13 - 16 after 29 games.
.
The Chiefs were clearly getting better during that time and not worse.

[Skip Towne]

The Chiefs were clearly getting better during that time and not worse.
Exactly

[Zouk]

I think I love you JWhit.

Thank you for using your power for good and not evil.

[Skip Towne]

I think I love you JWhit.

Thank you for using your power for good and not evil.
Look up contrarian in the dictionary and all you'll see is a picture of Zouk.

[Eleazar]

I think that he deserves next year, and then we evaluate based on if we're headed in the right direction.

Some suckage had to be expected given the state of the roster this year.

[C-Mac]

Actually there was an interesting debate on my board about Herm doing ''a great job'' in KC this year, between legendary internet Herm defender nyjunc vs Sperm Edwards and MSGold.


It starts on post 49

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45070&page=2

ROFL

[Messier]

This is a really good article.

I think it's so funny the way everyone talks about Herm like he did something really bad to everyones mother. I especially like the comment about how Herm is worse than Carl. What?!?

Here's what I know about Edwards, you may have a biased slant you want to add that'll make him sound worse in your eyes that's fine.

He went to the playoffs three times in five years, winning two playoff games, once beating the Colts 41-0. Two of those years he did it with Chad Pennington at QB, which should make any coach a finalist for coach of the year, and the last year he had the 12th ranked offense and the 7th D. I call that nice and balanced.

Look it's fine if to think that Herm is the worst person who ever lived, I think your wrong. I do think it's silly that earlier everyone agreed that the Chiefs were rebuilding, and everyone seemed to be okay with rebuilding, in fact some seemed like they were looking forward to it, like a great cleansing of the remnants of the Vermeil mess. Well, we are rebuilding. What do you think happens during a rebuilding? Does the team play better than before? No! The teams gonna suck for a bit. If Herm can get his players and more importantly his coaches, this team will be better. Much better. I think Herm can be a super bowl coach, I'm willing to let him try with a roster he wants, it's not there yet. Hopefully next year with a new o-line and more on D, we'll start the turn around. I just think it's crazy to proclaim Herm's time a disaster when we're not finished with year two yet for a team that just barley has his players on it.

This is what's happened so far under Herm

year 1 : 9-7 and playoffs with a team that should have gone 5-11.
year 2: 4-8 with no line, flux at QB, RB. The real start of the rebuilding.

I have no problem believing that next year will get better then the year after better than that. It's how these things turn out sometimes. What I don't want to be is the Raiders always firing their coaches after one year, because they lost too many games. And what happens? They are constantly in year one of rebuilding. If some how Herm got fired after this year like everyone wants, my guess is that next year would be a copy of this one. Would you be more patient with the next losing coach?

[Rasputin]

I don't think it matters who our Coach is as long as CP is here. CP due to his huge EGO won't allow a HC to do things his way and stay out of the way.

I think it would be easier for Herm to Coach a winning team if he had the O-line. If the O-line was better now we wouldn't be as bad of a team and then we could tell more about Herm as a Head Coach. It comes down to who's fault is it that the O-line is so bad. I think Herm has fixed alot of problems that CP failed to do so but it was too much for Herm to fix everything over night, another good draft and we will be fine.

[Reerun_KC]

With the help of the right general manager, Herm can find the proper mixture of offensive coaches, rebuild KC’s offensive line and develop a second receiver to play alongside Dwayne Bowe.

_____________________________________________________________

First of all, Carl isn't going anywhere. :banghead:

But for argument's sake - What makes Whitock believe this? For all the good points about Herm being able to build a defense,there are just as many to support the case that he can not do the same with an offense. If you're gonna base one side of an argument on past history, you need to do the same with the other. It's more likely that under Herm, we'll "rebuild" only half a team and plod around between 9-7, 10-6 for years trying to find an offense to compliment a defense. We've had enough of that to last a lifetime.


Sadly Tex, this is what the Herm supporters so desperately hang there hopes on... They want the 9-7 and 10-6 type seasons with first round waxing...

Once Herm leaves here he wont see a HC job for years, that is scaring the hell out of his supporters.. They want to see mediocrity continue at its finest...

[The Bad Guy]

They went 10 - 6 the following year he left.
;)

Don't confuse facts with Reetard, his head might explode.

What a ****ing dickbag he is.

[The Bad Guy]

Sadly Tex, this is what the Herm supporters so desperately hang there hopes on... They want the 9-7 and 10-6 type seasons with first round waxing...

Once Herm leaves here he wont see a HC job for years, that is scaring the hell out of his supporters.. They want to see mediocrity continue at its finest...

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

You stated your case about Herm last year. You said he could win the SB and you'd never like him.

But what is hysterical, is how he dominates your thoughts and posts everyday of your pathetic life.

[Skip Towne]

Sadly Tex, this is what the Herm supporters so desperately hang there hopes on... They want the 9-7 and 10-6 type seasons with first round waxing...

Once Herm leaves here he wont see a HC job for years, that is scaring the hell out of his supporters.. They want to see mediocrity continue at its finest...
Agreed. But right now Herm is 4 games short of that coveted mediocrity. After 7 years of trying.

[Zouk]

Look up contrarian in the dictionary and all you'll see is a picture of Zouk.

Not really true. I just genuinely believe different things about football than most on this board.

If we have a year like this next year I will probably join the majority view.

[HemiEd]

While going 9-7 with the other guys players. Hey, the guy is a sub .500 coach. I think we have had enough mediocrity. Herm is sub mediocrity. He is a losing coach. Spin that!

Yep, I predict if he remains the Chiefs HC, mediocrity is something we are going to dream of. He has not proven that he knows how to win, but he has sure as hell proven he knows how to lose.

[Reerun_KC]

Not really true. I just genuinely believe different things about football than most on this board.

If we have a year like this next year I will probably join the majority view.


Zouk, its not about W/L record with Herm. It is how he manages the games, his unwillingness to adjust his philosophy to suit the players he has, the constant giving up on offense when the chips are down...

I just over all dont like how he builds and run teams... I never liked his NYJ teams, they reminded me so much of the Chiefs in the late 80's early 90's. Now he is doing the same thing here in KC in 2007...

You can like him, praise him and just be thrilled that he his here, but for me. It takes all the joy out of sunday's...

[HemiEd]

What has Herm built thus far? He backed into the playoffs last year with the remains of Vermeil's team.

What Herm has "built" thus far is the worst offense in the NFL and an average (at best) defense that has been gashed multiple times this season.... and not to mention a horrible special teams unit, with the exception of the punter.

Stop acting like Herm is building something that is actually going to lead to a legit contender. And now the Chiefs are putting their faith in Herm to rebuild an offense.. that is like asking Dumbya and Dumsfeld to run a war.

Sad, but I agree with this.

[007]

I don't think it matters who our Coach is as long as CP is here. CP due to his huge EGO won't allow a HC to do things his way and stay out of the way.

I think it would be easier for Herm to Coach a winning team if he had the O-line. If the O-line was better now we wouldn't be as bad of a team and then we could tell more about Herm as a Head Coach. It comes down to who's fault is it that the O-line is so bad. I think Herm has fixed alot of problems that CP failed to do so but it was too much for Herm to fix everything over night, another good draft and we will be fine.
Remember that priceless point in the Hard Knocks when they were talking about going with Croyle and Carl started salivating on Huard and reminding them of his win now attitude. The look on Herm's face said it all.

herm thinking his statement to Carl - You're and idiot.

[milkman]

I still don't get why people think that Solari was this great O-Line coach.

Just clean house from Carl right down to the Cheerleading coordinator.

[Bearcat]

Actually there was an interesting debate on my board about Herm doing ''a great job'' in KC this year, between legendary internet Herm defender nyjunc vs Sperm Edwards and MSGold.


It starts on post 49

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45070&page=2I've been saying 50/50 for a while, but 47 is close enough LMAO LMAO

http://www.thebrushback.com/hermedwards_full.htm
Herm Edwards, the new head coach for the Kansas City Chiefs, promised today to do for the Chiefs what he did for his old team, the New York Jets. Edwards compiled a 39-41 record in five years as Jets coach and was often criticized for his game and clock management. At a press conference Wednesday, Edwards assured Chiefs fans that they can expect the same thing

“I am here to get this team back on track,” Edwards said. “My reputation speaks for itself. I vow – and you can print this – to do for this city, this franchise, exactly what I did for the Jets. I will apply the same strategies and philosophies that made the Jets the roaring success that they were during my tenure. Mr. Peterson did not hand me $12 million for nothing. He expects me to win, and I will – approximately 47 percent of the time.

I only ask the Kansas City fans to embrace this team, be patient, and give me a chance to get us on track for 8, 9, maybe even 10 wins a year. Make no mistake: We will slip into the playoffs a couple times during my tenure here. Anything less than that will be considered a failure."

[TEX]

I still don't get why people think that Solari was this great O-Line coach.

Just clean house from Carl right down to the Cheerleading coordinator.

Well I don't know what to tell you then because you and I had a pretty good discussion about it a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly, you're basing your opinion on the,"Solari didn't develop talent - the other coaches did" take. Right? A case can be made to support that since Solari himself gave them credit. But IMO, I and others have provided many examples of how Solari was a very good O-Line coach.

[Mr. Laz]

herm is paying for Carl's suckiness...


if Chiefs fans hadn't be hearing "wait until next year" for the last 15 years we would be more likely to have patience.



btw - rebuilding still doesn't excuse crappy clock management, having a high school level offensive scheme and herm just generally being a smug douchebag.

[milkman]

THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON CHIEFSPLANET, ASSHOLES!!!!!!

Now this is the kind of post that can make a father proud.

:crybaby:


The fact that you support Herman ****ing Edwards just might make me disown you again.

:# :banghead:

[dirk digler]

I totally disagree with Whitlock if Carl goes I hope they send Herm with him. He could possibly rank in the Top 3 worst head coaches in KC Chiefs history

[StcChief]

Remember that priceless point in the Hard Knocks when they were talking about going with Croyle and Carl started salivating on Huard and reminding them of his win now attitude. The look on Herm's face said it all.

herm thinking his statement to Carl - You're and idiot.
Carl's problem is still marketing and Butts in the seats approach.

He wants "no black outs" full stadiums period....rebuild in the off season.

how may STHers are there? 60K+? isn't that enough to fund and keep this team running.

a bad year and you think of the 60K season ticket holder are gonna give up? you may not be able to raise prices so what.

We need a winning product and your yearly patch job of players has run it's course.

[Reerun_KC]

its just time, way past time for a total douching...

time to start new, we have a butt load of picks next year. Some pretty good talent..

Why not can everyone and let a NFL level coach come in and build for the future?

[milkman]

Well I don't know what to tell you then because you and I had a pretty good discussion about it a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly, you're basing your opinion on the,"Solari didn't develop talent - the other coaches did" take. Right? A case can be made to support that since Solari himself gave them credit. But IMO, I and others have provided many examples of how Solari was a very good O-Line coach.

What we concluded, to the best of my memory, is that Solari's contribution to the development of the O-Line talent was developing the blocking schemes that took advantage of the talent on the line.

It was the asst. line coach who did the teaching.

Solari might well be a great teacher, but we have no evidence to show us that is true.

[milkman]

I totally disagree with Whitlock if Carl goes I hope they send Herm with him. He could possibly rank in the Top 3 worst head coaches in KC Chiefs history

You want to know what is really sad?

Marty is the second best coach in Chiefs history.

God, we have sucked.

I think I'm going to have antifreeze in my coffee now.

[dirk digler]

You want to know what is really sad?

Marty is the second best coach in Chiefs history.

God, we have sucked.

I think I'm going to have antifreeze in my coffee now.

LMAO

No doubt and I definitely feel your pain

[doomy3]

I just think it's funny that some of the same people who hate Herm are MU fans that argue that Mike Anderson is a good coach but he just needs time to build his roster to fit his game because it is only his second year.

[Mr. Laz]

You want to know what is really sad?

Marty is the second best coach in Chiefs history.

God, we have sucked.

I think I'm going to have antifreeze in my coffee now.
That's why i'm baffled when some people try to actually say that Chiefs fans are "fair weather".

i mean holy batshit batman ..... when is that last team we've seen so much as a rainbow to be fair weathered about?


:banghead:

[TEX]

What we concluded, to the best of my memory, is that Solari's contribution to the development of the O-Line talent was developing the blocking schemes that took advantage of the talent on the line.

It was the asst. line coach who did the teaching.

Solari might well be a great teacher, but we have no evidence to show us that is true.


I'm willing to give him the benfit of the doubt - but you do have a point.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/395741.html
We’ve wanted a true rebuilding year for a long time. We have one. Let’s give Herm a chance to rebuild. We have no real reason to doubt his eye for talent.

Duh, dumbass. Everyone knows Herm has an eye for talent (the eye is not 20/20 though) but the problem is he CAN'T COACH TO SAVE HIS LIFE!!! I would be all for keeping Herm on as GM, canning Carl and hiring someone like Jason Garret. Clean the motha ****ing house at One Arrowhead drive. Herm has failed to learn that this isn't 1950 in terms of how you play football.

[Reerun_KC]

That's why i'm baffled when some people try to actually say that Chiefs fans are "fair weather".

i mean holy batshit batman ..... when is that last team we've seen so much as a rainbow to be fair weathered about?


:banghead:


You cant have a rainbow, unless you send me a monthly check for $79.95. Here is my address

Carl Peterson
One Arrowhead Drive
Kansas City Mo


thanks for supporting mediocrity.

/Carl

[TN_Chief]

As someone mentioned earlier...even if we give Herm the benefit of the doubt regarding his ability to build and motivate a defense (personally I'm skeptical)...exactly what has he ever done to indicate any competence on the offensive side of the ball?

Herm is not a coordinator who can only concern himself with D. He is (allegedly) a head coach...he needs to demonstrate competence on both sides of the ball. Which he has never done.

[Dylan]

I don't know what is worse, Jason Whitlock flip-flopping on issues or sensing the transparency of his argument. He has clearly shown me that he's not trustworthy when he said, "This city has not been fair to Herm." Is it really so hard for Whitlock to watch a game and then ask intelligent questions?

Nothing would more raise this debate than if Whitlock would take ownership of his articles. There is nothing more powerful than the power of his pen.


One Out of Many Articles:
Chiefs’ offensive coaches let the team down, Byline, Jason Whitlock
"Poorly coached teams try too hard to be “unpredictable.” It doesn’t happen naturally, and the teams wind up looking completely foolish. Kansas City’s offensive game plan was high school-ish."
"Chiefs fans have every right to jump ship on head coach Herm Edwards, offensive coordinator Mike Solari and offensive manipulator/assistant head coach/locker-room snitch/clock manager Dick Curl."
"The Chiefs are 0-2 and a laughingstock because their offense stinks. The knock on Herm Edwards is that he can’t put together a sound offensive team. It’s the same knock that chased his mentor Tony Dungy out of Tampa Bay and into the loving arms of Peyton Manning and Indy offensive coordinator Tom Moore."
"Herm better find an offensive clue soon or he’s going to get swept out of town by the same hurricane that’s coming for King Carl Peterson."

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/278367.html

My observations were directed toward Jason Whitlock. They were not directed toward the Chiefs coaching staff.

[Crush]

To paraphrase Lewis Black: I think we would be better off if Herm just came to our homes and pissed on our legs.

[TEX]

As someone mentioned earlier...even if we give Herm the benefit of the doubt regarding his ability to build and motivate a defense (personally I'm skeptical)...exactly what has he ever done to indicate any competence on the offensive side of the ball?

Herm is not a coordinator who can only concern himself with D. He is (allegedly) a head coach...he needs to demonstrate competence on both sides of the ball. Which he has never done.

Yep. I said earlier that for all the good points about Herm being able to build a defense,there are just as many to support the case that he can not do the same with an offense. If you're gonna base one side of an argument on past history, you need to do the same with the other. It's more likely that under Herm, we'll "rebuild" only half a team and plod around between 9-7, 10-6 for years trying to find an offense to compliment a defense. We've had enough of that to last a lifetime.

[Pablo]

This discussion again!!!

Woo-f*cking-hoo.

[Ari ümlaüt]

Herms best year EVAR!!!11 was 10-6. That says a lot to me.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Herm does not deserve more of a chance than Gunther got.

[Reerun_KC]

Herms best year EVAR!!!11 was 10-6. That says a lot to me.


Says "Championship" to me...

[milkman]

This discussion again!!!

Woo-f*cking-hoo.

Yep, and your contribution to this discussion is every bit as interesting as your contributions to previous discussions.

[Messier]

I'm telling you, a change at coach after this year will move us closer to being the Raiders. You know, the "let's change coaches every year" Raiders. I hope you want to be bad and stay bad for years, Give Herm a chance to at least get a roster and staff that are his. What's happening now is what we all said we were ready for, I guess people were just not as ready as they said for this.

[Mecca]

I'm telling you, a change at coach after this year will move us closer to being the Raiders. You know, the "let's change coaches every year" Raiders. I hope you want to be bad and stay bad for years, Give Herm a chance to at least get a roster and staff that are his. What's happening now is what we all said we were ready for, I guess people were just not as ready as they said for this.

The Raiders are ahead of us right now.......Newflash we already are with the Raiders there is no moving about it.

[Pablo]

Yep, and your contribution to this discussion is every bit as interesting as your contributions to previous discussions.Sure, because we all know in the 5,000 threads that have been started over this subject, I've never had anything of substance to say.

You, on the other hand, are a masterful debater and every post you write is packed with powerful insight and truth.

F*ck off.

[Mr. Laz]

I'm telling you, a change at coach after this year will move us closer to being the Raiders. You know, the "let's change coaches every year" Raiders. I hope you want to be bad and stay bad for years, Give Herm a chance to at least get a roster and staff that are his. What's happening now is what we all said we were ready for, I guess people were just not as ready as they said for this.
dammit :banghead:

if we are rebuilding then why isn't LJ on IR?

what part of rebuilding is an excuse of shitty clock management



people aren't ready ....... blow me!!


stop trying to blame the fans for shit the Chiefs screw up.

[milkman]

I'm telling you, a change at coach after this year will move us closer to being the Raiders. You know, the "let's change coaches every year" Raiders. I hope you want to be bad and stay bad for years, Give Herm a chance to at least get a roster and staff that are his. What's happening now is what we all said we were ready for, I guess people were just not as ready as they said for this.

I think you make a reasonable point.

However, I don't believe anyone is unhappy with the concept of rebuilding.

What they are unhappy with is the fact that Herman ****ing Edwards is a worthless piece of shit HC who has no business being a HC, and the fact that the Chiefs failed to acknowledge the rebuilding effort until the season was over half done, and starting Huard because he gave them the best chance to win.

Sorry, I ain't buying it.


Further, the difference is that the Raiders keep changing coaches, but the dead man in charge remains.

If the Chiefs replace Herman ****ing Edwards at the same time that they replace Carl, then it is n't quite the same.

[Skip Towne]

I'm telling you, a change at coach after this year will move us closer to being the Raiders. You know, the "let's change coaches every year" Raiders. I hope you want to be bad and stay bad for years, Give Herm a chance to at least get a roster and staff that are his. What's happening now is what we all said we were ready for, I guess people were just not as ready as they said for this.
Yeah, let's just keep hanging on to a coach who has shown no signs of improvement in 7 years as a HC. Just so we don't look like the Raiders.

[Bugeater]

btw - rebuilding still doesn't excuse crappy clock management, having a high school level offensive scheme and herm just generally being a smug douchebag.
QFT. It's not the losing that has many up in a dither, it's the manner in which we're losing. It's fair criticism IMO.

[milkman]

Sure, because we all know in the 5,000 threads that have been started over this subject, I've never had anything of substance to say.

You, on the other hand, are a masterful debater and every post you write is packed with powerful insight and truth.

F*ck off.

Chill dude.

It was a joke.

And for the record, I never said I was a masterful debater.

I just said masterbator.

[Chiefnj2]

Herm destroys the offense, destroys special teams and believes in an antiquated game philosophy, and people think he DESERVES more time? Herm doesn't deserve a thing. It's the fans that deserve a fresh start from the good ole boy network that hasn't worked in 13 years.

[Pablo]

Chill dude.

It was a joke.

And for the record, I never said I was a masterful debater.

I just said masterbator.My apologies.

I've just spent myself on this subject over and over and over again, and I'm frankly tired of talking about it.

[Mecca]

Herm destroys the offense, destroys special teams and believes in an antiquated game philosophy, and people think he DESERVES more time? Herm doesn't deserve a thing. It's the fans that deserve a fresh start from the good ole boy network that hasn't worked in 13 years.

This honestly may be the worst offense and special teams I can ever remember the Chiefs having.

[Bugeater]

Yeah, let's just keep hanging on to a coach who has shown no signs of improvement in 7 years as a HC. Just so we don't look like the Raiders.
No kidding. I heard the same bullshit arguments about Callahan for 4 years (we don't want to become Notre Dame, blah blah blah), even though he revealed his shortcomings in his VERY FIRST GAME here.

[Baby Lee]

Sadly Tex, this is what the Herm supporters so desperately hang there hopes on... They want the 9-7 and 10-6 type seasons with first round waxing...

Once Herm leaves here he wont see a HC job for years, that is scaring the hell out of his supporters.. They want to see mediocrity continue at its finest...
Get over yourself. The only time people 'want' 9-7 is when it becomes a mathematical certainty that 9-7 is the best that the team can achieve.

It's pretty telling how weak your snap opposition is that you have to so blatantly mischaracterize the opposition.

Your Herm hate has transformed you from contrarian to dumbass.

[Mr. Laz]

My apologies.

I've just spent myself on this subject over and over and over again, and I'm frankly tired of talking about it.
so don't ..... :shrug:

[ChiefsCountry]

Herms best year EVAR!!!11 was 10-6. That says a lot to me.

You know 3 of those loses that year were to Pittsburgh, who went 15-1 and 2 twice to the Patriots.

[KC Jones]

I'm on board with giving Herm more time. I loathe the game time mistakes and the tendency to get too conservative, but he's a good coach for rebuilding and we desperately need to do just that.

[Baby Lee]

I loathe the game time mistakes and the tendency to get too conservative, but he's a good coach for rebuilding and we desperately need to do just that.
And I'd be a tad more exorcised about the conservativism if every time the O isn't conservative it didn't get ass raped.

[TEX]

I think you make a reasonable point.

However, I don't believe anyone is unhappy with the concept of rebuilding.

What they are unhappy with is the fact that Herman ****ing Edwards is a worthless piece of shit HC who has no business being a HC, and the fact that the Chiefs failed to acknowledge the rebuilding effort until the season was over half done, and starting Huard because he gave them the best chance to win.

Sorry, I ain't buying it.


Further, the difference is that the Raiders keep changing coaches, but the dead man in charge remains.

If the Chiefs replace Herman ****ing Edwards at the same time that they replace Carl, then it is n't quite the same.

This direction represents the best choice IMO. BOTH need to go NOW so the true REBIULD can begin. One that will include front office as well as players. The thing that psisses me off the most about this season is what you said about how they acknowledged the "rebuilding" effort. It was indeed a rebuild by default philosophy and that is so chicken-shit just like Herm on so many levels. :shake:

[Mr. Laz]

And I'd be a tad more exorcised about the conservativism if every time the O isn't conservative it didn't get ass raped.
they don't ... it's a myth

[milkman]

This direction represents the best choice IMO. BOTH need to go NOW so the true REBIULD can begin. One that will include front office as well as players. The thing that psisses me off the most about this season is what you said about how they acknowledged the "rebuilding" effort. It was indeed a rebuild by default philosophy and that is so chicken-shit just like Herm and Carl on so many levels. :shake:

[Hammock Parties]

they don't ... it's a myth

WTF? Did you watch last week's game?

[Messier]

dammit :banghead:

if we are rebuilding then why isn't LJ on IR?

what part of rebuilding is an excuse of shitty clock management



people aren't ready ....... blow me!!


stop trying to blame the fans for shit the Chiefs screw up.


I'm blaming Chiefs fans for anything, stop being defensive. Everyone said yeah let's rebuild! They are! MaN! I must suck to be soooo mad at the Coach for your team. The coach for two more years at least and you can't change it....man it must suck.

[Reerun_KC]

Get over yourself. The only time people 'want' 9-7 is when it becomes a mathematical certainty that 9-7 is the best that the coach will achieve.

It's pretty telling how weak your snap opposition is that you have to so blatantly mischaracterize the opposition.

Your Herm hate has transformed you from contrarian to dumbass.


Thanks for noticing! Rep to you!

[2112]

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[Baby Lee]

Thanks for noticing! Rep to you!
Don't be Coonty. If you change my quote, make it clear you did so.

It's fans like you that, for all their present faults, makes me more embarassed about Chiefs fans that the team itself.

And before you start your 'real fans' bellyaching, I'm not saying you're a bad fan, just that you're a stupid person.

[Halfcan]

If we give Herm 10 years- he would STILL be a SHITTY coach.

He has singlehandly destroyed this team for the next decade.

[Baby Lee]

If we give Herm 10 years- he would STILL be a SHITTY coach.

He has singlehandly destroyed this team for the next decade.
Teams with shitty O-lines are shitty teams. It's one of the constants of the universe.

Give the Pats our O-line and leave everything else the same, and they'd have the same record.

The one thing we know for sure is that the organization as a whole has misjudged the O-line situation. We won't know anything more until that is sorted out.

[Pablo]

He has singlehandly destroyed this team for the next decade.No, that would be DV.

[ChiefsCountry]

No, that would be DV.

Yep exactly. At least with Herm we have some young talent that is worth something unlike Dicky Poo.

[milkman]

If we give Herm 10 years- he would STILL be a SHITTY coach.

I agree here.

He has singlehandly destroyed this team for the next decade.

Here, however, I don't.

Herman ****ing Edwards is doing a fair job of assembling talent that a good coach that replaces him will be able to do something positive with.

[Messier]

Herm can be a super bowl coach with super bowl talent. Amazing isn't it?

[milkman]

Herm can be a super bowl coach with super bowl talent. Amazing isn't it?

No he can't.

Herman ****ing Edwards couldn't coach his way out of a toilet bowl.

There's no way in hell he can coach his way into a Super Bowl.

[Buehler445]

What's happening now is what we all said we were ready for, I guess people were just not as ready as they said for this.

I'm not attacking you, but here is how I feel about it.


Herm started Huard. This is absolutely rediculous. If Croyle was not good enough to beat out Huard, he should have been cut. No two ways about it. Huard did nothing for the Kansas City Chiefs, now we are going into 2008 not knowing what Croyle has. Absulutely unacceptable. Rediculous. It is impossible for you or I to know what effect Carl had on it. But the fact remains that Herm lacked the testicular fortitude to throw some chips on the table and play the kid. Whether he couldn't stand up to the King or he's just to mother ****ing conservative, he made an unacceptable decision.
Priest Holmes. The dude was 32 (IIRC). Kolby sat behind him, and how does that move look now. This does not lend itself to rebuilding. We smoked Bennett and we needed to see what Kolby had to know what we needed next year. If PH hadn't have gotten broken, would we?
Greg Wesley has been playing a lot. I admit I don't know the situation, but Pollard needs snaps. None of this half time shit.
Kris Wilson. It has been evident for quite some time that KW is not the answer. Herm hyped up Boomer all freaking offseason. If he doesn't have the potential to outplay KW, why hype him up. And it was painfully obvious they needed a hammer man which KW is NOT.
I'm sure there are others that the more astute posters are aware of.


The fact is that we have the record of a rebuilding team, but lack the personnel moves that reflect rebuilding.

Moreover, most of the people in this thread are smashing on Herm because he won't "play to win the game." To date in KC exempting perhaps the first SD game this year, he has played like a giant gaping vagina.

Up to the Indy game, I gave Herm slack. There is no more.

[|Zach|]

Don't be Coonty. If you change my quote, make it clear you did so.

It's fans like you that, for all their present faults, makes me more embarassed about Chiefs fans that the team itself.

And before you start your 'real fans' bellyaching, I'm not saying you're a bad fan, just that you're a stupid person.
Teams with shitty O-lines are shitty teams. It's one of the constants of the universe.

Give the Pats our O-line and leave everything else the same, and they'd have the same record.

The one thing we know for sure is that the organization as a whole has misjudged the O-line situation. We won't know anything more until that is sorted out.

Couldn't agree more.

[King_Chief_Fan]

I'm on board with giving Herm more time. I loathe the game time mistakes and the tendency to get too conservative, but he's a good coach for rebuilding and we desperately need to do just that.
no offense KC Jones, but how can you say that he is a good coach for rebuilding? NY? Hardly. So far for the Chiefs? How? It is too early to say for sure about his draft picks but Pollard and Page aren't doing that well, the two DT's drafted havent done anything yet. Not even Herm has confidence in Croyle. Sorry, I don't know how we say he is a good builder of teams. No evidence yet. Next year will tell the story. Personally, I would have him fired this year but that isn't going to happen. We won't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and can't make make chicken salad with chicken poop.....Herm is a 7 year career below .500 winning coach.
He is what he is.....sows ear or chicken poop. Neither of what the team needs.

[Halfcan]

I agree here.



Here, however, I don't.

Herman ****ing Edwards is doing a fair job of assembling talent that a good coach that replaces him will be able to do something positive with.

Your right-Herms draft record is SOOO much better. 10% making the team as a starter is not that great.

1st round picks SHOULD be starters-so that is nothing special Herm did.

[Mecca]

So far with Herm it looks like they've whiffed on at least 1 first day pick.......there's a possibility for 4...

[Halfcan]

no offense KC Jones, but how can you say that he is a good coach for rebuilding? NY? Hardly. So far for the Chiefs? How? It is too early to say for sure about his draft picks but Pollard and Page aren't doing that well, the two DT's drafted havent done anything yet. Not even Herm has confidence in Croyle. Sorry, I don't know how we say he is a good builder of teams. No evidence yet. Next year will tell the story. Personally, I would have him fired this year but that isn't going to happen. We won't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and can't make make chicken salad with chicken poop.....Herm is a 7 year career below .500 winning coach.
He is what he is.....sows ear or chicken poop. Neither of what the team needs.

Great post-Herm needs to go.

He does NOT have the killer instinct to win-and either does this team.

Coincidence???

[Messier]

No he can't.

Herman ****ing Edwards couldn't coach his way out of a toilet bowl.

There's no way in hell he can coach his way into a Super Bowl.


Well I say he could. So there.

[milkman]

Your right-Herms draft record is SOOO much better. 10% making the team as a starter is not that great.

1st round picks SHOULD be starters-so that is nothing special Herm did.

Given the Chiefs draft history, those 1st round starters are a huge step forward.

[Mecca]

Given the Chiefs draft history, those 1st round starters are a huge step forward.

That's really sad isn't it? Our expectations are that low.

[Messier]

Great post-Herm needs to go.

He does NOT have the killer instinct to win-and either does this team.

Coincidence???


Yeah he would never go for it on 4th down.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Yeah he would never go for it on 4th down.

ROFL when did he when it mattered?

He has done it lately when his fat was already fried and nothing to lose.

He should have done that in the begining.

[Bearcat]

Yeah he would never go for it on 4th down.

I'd be happy if he consistently went for it on 3rd down.... or go for it on 1st down so it's not always 2nd and 9.

[Messier]

Everyone just keep hating Herm. I think it's funny. I hope you can keep it up for the next two years, or beyond, it makes the board fun.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Everyone just keep hating Herm. I think it's funny. I hope you can keep it up for the next two years, or beyond, it makes the board fun.

It is more fun when there is at least one defender of Herm. You hang in there o.k.?

[Rasputin]

Just fire J Whitlock too. For all of his articles trying to out CP, he has not gotten the job done. J Whitlock needs to take a differant aproach or something. I want CP fired have for years but J Whitlock is a moron in his own right. IMO or too my knowledge J Whitlock has not written anything constructive or has given any good advise for this team or Hunts other than fire King Carl.

I think he wants to take credit for Ty Law, but I wouldn't.

[milkman]

Everyone just keep hating Herm. I think it's funny. I hope you can keep it up for the next two years, or beyond, it makes the board fun.

We'd be happy about the fact that you find us entertaining, if only we could say the same about you.

[Bearcat]

ROFL when did he when it mattered?

He has done it lately when his fat was already fried and nothing to lose.

He should have done that in the begining.

Someone said it earlier... he's so conservative, when he tries to be aggressive it's more "look at me, I'm being aggressive!" than trying to be smart. Passing 5 times, in itself, isn't aggressive... going for it on 4th down when you're on the opponent 35 and losing isn't any more aggressive than any other coach in this league.

[Bearcat]

Everyone just keep hating Herm. I think it's funny. I hope you can keep it up for the next two years, or beyond, it makes the board fun.

If he changes when there's more talent, we would finally be balanced, and might win a couple of playoff games.

But, he's never learned how to beat a team that's better than his, or learned how to win a big game, and you sometimes have to do one or both in the playoffs...

Jets/Steelers -- 10-10 at halftime (like every game coached this year), punted in the 3rd and got a defensive touchdown, and then played for 40 yard field goals.

Chiefs/Colts --
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/bearcat2002/hermnofirstdowns.jpg

Chiefs/Colts 2007 -- Completely gave up twice after Croyle had gone down the field to tie the game.

[Megbert]

54 - 60 record regular and post season record.
pretty much says it all.

[Dylan]

Jason Whitlock's lack of credibility to his peers is to the point that the emperor has no clothes. I've often wondered how Whitlock has a job at the same newspaper as award winning, sports columnist Joe Posnanski. Amazing for Mr. Flip-Flopper a.k.a Mr. Basher.


Journalism website - Dec 7th:

..."Jason, quite simply, these days it’s always about you. You had a chance to write a column that explored how too many young black men meet the end of their lives at the barrel of a gun and how we as a society and a community need to work harder to uplift our young black brothers and dissuade them from a life that is sure to end sadly for them and their loved ones. You didn’t do that though, you chose to go into another one of your rant filled rages about how hip-hop is destroying mother Earth.

You’ve made your point, there are some elements in hip-hop culture that need to change for the better but your column about Sean wasn’t the place to talk about that. It was a time to reflect on what a young man once was and what he was starting to turn into and how the last year or so of his life should be used as an inspiration for other young men who are trying to change for the better. That would have been too easy though, because had you done that, then nobody would have been talking about Whitlock, they would have been talking about……oh my god, they would have actually been talking about the story, imagine that."

:shake: ok, i'm done. lol

[TRR]

There should be no QB competition next year. Brodie Croyle should be the guy. I disagree with Whitlock in that point. Why bring in a FA? He isn't going to be any better than Huard...

The only way another QB should get a chance to play is if one falls to KC in the draft miraculously.

[RedThat]

I somewhat disagree with this article because I think Whitlock forgot to include the finer points in what it takes to be a successful head coach? That is, being a master at the x's and o's. Doing a good job getting your team prepared mentally, and also having the ability to make adjustments during a game. Not only that, but what about managing a game? Having the ability to provide your team with good clock management, and making the right decisions late in games? These are the little things but they are critical in determining on how successful you're going to be as an NFL head coach.

Finding a good head coach ain't easy. Im 100% agreeing with Whitlock there. We all know Herm has a great eye for talent, and developing young players, but that is not good enough to be a successful NFL head coach. this is where I disagree with Whitlock. And if that's the case, no offense to Herm or anything, but if that's all he brings to the table, then I think he is better suited to be either a GM, a scout, or director of player personnel. JMO

[Otter]

Without going back and reading every post and I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned - I agree Herm needs the time to rebuild, it's his stupid decisions during game time and press conferences that are killing him

If you're not a speaker keep your mouth shut.

He's starting Brodie and that's all good with me.

[Halfcan]

Given the Chiefs draft history, those 1st round starters are a huge step forward.

ROFL Yep you got me on that one-lol

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I
Finding a good head coach ain't easy. Im 100% agreeing with Whitlock there. We all know Herm has a great eye for talent, and developing young players, but that is not good enough to be a successful NFL head coach.

I'm not sure I totally buy this line of reasoning right now.

Just because Herm is a better draft evaluator than DV does not mean that he is a good evaluator of talent.

1st Rounders:

Bowe was a very good pick. Hali has been meh. I'm sorry, but if you spend a mid-first round pick on a DE, he should be able to definitively impact games for you. Right now, Hali has performed like an adequate DE, but definitely *not* a first round talent.

2nd Rounders:

Pollard has been great on ST, but he has shown NOTHING as a SS. You can't say that has been a good pick so far. He hasn't totally whiffed, but Pollard has shown very little to validate his draft position.

Turk McBride has been invisible. Given Wiegmann's shitiful play, passing on Ryan Kalil looks awful, because that's one less pick on the O-line we'd have to make.

3rd Rounders:

Brodie Croyle--Could be a good starting QB, but he could also end up as a clipboard holder. We don't know. Why does Herm get credit for a good pick when his future is uncertain

Tank Tyler--Seems to play smaller than what he is, but he's still a n00b. Has made no plays this year. Good be good, but we don't know at all.

4th Rounder--



5th Rounder--

Marcus Maxey: Whiff
Justin Medlock: Awful.
Kolby Smith: Looks like a really good pick. Has good vision and speed.

6th Rounder:

Tre Stallings: No other team in the NFL wanted him when he languished on our PS and was out of the league earlier this year. Standard fare for a 6th rounder.

Herb Taylor: Who knows?

Jeff Webb: Blah. Could be an adequate 4th WR. Nothing special.


7th Rounder:

Jarrad Page: Good pick. Seems to be at least a serviceable NFL safety. Great value

Michael Allan: 7th round nothing. Big surprise.



Honestly, what is in there that makes people think that Herm is Bill Polian aside from the Bowe and Page picks? That looks like a remarkably mediocre draft record to me.


Remember htismaqe

>bad does not = good.

[Mecca]

You said Hali isn't awesome Hamas........I hope you are ready to be attacked from all angles.

[BigMeatballDave]

Hali has been meh. I'm sorry, but if you spend a mid-first round pick on a DE, he should be able to definitively impact games for you. Right now, Hali has performed like an adequate DE, but definitely *not* a first round talent.

He's been playing hurt all season. I will save judgment until next season.

[FringeNC]

The only scenario of Herm remaining HC that I could tolerate is if we'd bring in Bill Parcells as GM. Parcells simply wouldn't allow Herm to run the not-to-lose game. Let Herm motivate the team, and that's about it.

[Reerun_KC]

The only scenario of Herm remaining HC that I could tolerate is if we'd bring in Bill Parcells as GM. Parcells simply wouldn't allow Herm to run the not-to-lose game. Let Herm motivate the team, and that's about it.


Nice call! I would agree!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You said Hali isn't awesome Hamas........I hope you are ready to be attacked from all angles.

Playing "hurt" or not, he's played like a league average DE.

I'm sorry, but when you have a game changer like Allen on one side of the line, everyone else should benefit. Hali has shown no ability at any point thus far to consistently beat even single team coverage. How does that warrant a first round selection?

[Dr. Van Halen]

Playing "hurt" or not, he's played like a league average DE.

I'm sorry, but when you have a game changer like Allen on one side of the line, everyone else should benefit. Hali has shown no ability at any point thus far to consistently beat even single team coverage. How does that warrant a first round selection?

Playing "hurt" or not? What's that mean? Why the "hurt"? Do you not think he's really hurt? Do you have some kind of secret information?

I think there's a huge difference in his play before he was hurt. He was a real monster at times last year.

Look, there are plenty of draft hijinks to complain about. Tamba Hali isn't one of them.

Herm is good at drafting. There are plenty of other things to complain about with Herm.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Playing "hurt" or not? What's that mean? Why the "hurt"? Do you not think he's really hurt? Do you have some kind of secret information?

I think there's a huge difference in his play before he was hurt. He was a real monster at times last year.

Look, there are plenty of draft hijinks to complain about. Tamba Hali isn't one of them.

Herm is good at drafting. There are plenty of other things to complain about with Herm.

No he's not. He's better than Vermeil, but that just means he's better than horrible at drafting. He's *average*.

And I'm sorry, but everyone in the NFL is hurt right now.

[Messier]

No he's not. He's better than Vermeil, but that just means he's better than horrible at drafting. He's *average*.

And I'm sorry, but everyone in the NFL is hurt right now.



Really? Thanks Dr. Jenkins.

[Hammock Parties]

OK. We gave him another week. Now GTFO!

[WilliamTheIrish]

I guessed you missed HOF coach Joe Gibbs actually call two timeouts in a row and LOSE the football game because of it.

For the record, Herm didn't call two time-outs in a row. One time-out, one challenge.

That is VERY different. Stop confusing the two.

But he's seen 50 years of football, Dane. It's easy to get confused.

[whoman69]

Fatlock can't look past the color of someone's skin to see if they're doing a good job. The conservative nature of Herm Edwards is not going to change with two more seasons of play. If he were to learn from mistakes he would have learned from his errors with the Jets. Bellichick had one of the best teams in the league for a couple season and then the bottom fell out. Tony Dungy took his team to the NFC championship game and was fired because at the time he couldn't take them over the top. Before last year Dungy was still seen as someone who couldn't get his team to the top despite having the best talent in the league. Even Norv Turner can do that.

[EM31]

I somewhat disagree with this article because I think Whitlock forgot to include the finer points in what it takes to be a successful head coach? That is, being a master at the x's and o's. Doing a good job getting your team prepared mentally, and also having the ability to make adjustments during a game. Not only that, but what about managing a game? Having the ability to provide your team with good clock management, and making the right decisions late in games? These are the little things but they are critical in determining on how successful you're going to be as an NFL head coach.

Finding a good head coach ain't easy. Im 100% agreeing with Whitlock there. We all know Herm has a great eye for talent, and developing young players, but that is not good enough to be a successful NFL head coach. this is where I disagree with Whitlock. And if that's the case, no offense to Herm or anything, but if that's all he brings to the table, then I think he is better suited to be either a GM, a scout, or director of player personnel. JMO
Who is the "we all" in this? Herm had a horrible, horrible record developing young players in New York. People were left to rot on the bench or worse yet, were allowed to be poached off the practice squad while AARP verterans seemed to be physically incapable of playing badly enough so the Herm would bench them in favor of a younger player.

Vets played young players sat.

The free agents Herm did want to get in were massively overpaid, over-the-hill secondary guys, several of whom had played for him in Tampa.

I cannot think of a single player who Herm "developed" while he was here in New York. I am sure there had to have been one but nobody springs to mind. Perhaps he started to become a "great" identifier and developer of young talent once he left for the Chiefs. Maybe he was famous for it in Tampa but I don't recall that claim ever being made either.

How have the free-agent aquisitions been in KC? He was kind of snakebit here in New York. Either we got the Ty Law types who found in the Jets the very last team in the league who was prepared to meet their inflated price, or we got the bottom of the barrel guys who we insisted on paying like a mid-level free agent. Anyone decent might talk to the Jets to pump up the price with the two or three teams theyt wanted to go to.

We do have several rising stars here in NY now who, while they did not name Herm directly, are on record as saying what amazing differences there are between the old regime and the new one. Specifically, the guys who are practicing the best and shown the best in training camp and preseason are the ones who get the call to suit up on Sunday (Jericho Cotchery famously made that statement). The inference clearly was that he had been doing what he had been doing all along while Herm was in New York.

Brian Thomas after his breakout season last year made statements about how much he had learned and how he appreciated the changeover to a system where players were taught what they were supposed to do an why they were supposed to be doing it. The clear inference here was that coaching and game planning under Herm were not terribly cereberal affairs.

Herm is a great evaluator of the best microphone to use in press conferences and he has Curly Dick for everything else. That is about it. Oh, and he is also a champion thrower under the bus of anyone not named Herm.

[PastorMikH]

I agree with Whitlock. I wonder if he can turn the Pats around - I'd be for giving him a chance.

[MadMax]

Who is the "we all" in this? Herm had a horrible, horrible record developing young players in New York. People were left to rot on the bench or worse yet, were allowed to be poached off the practice squad while AARP verterans seemed to be physically incapable of playing badly enough so the Herm would bench them in favor of a younger player.

Vets played young players sat.

The free agents Herm did want to get in were massively overpaid, over-the-hill secondary guys, several of whom had played for him in Tampa.

I cannot think of a single player who Herm "developed" while he was here in New York. I am sure there had to have been one but nobody springs to mind. Perhaps he started to become a "great" identifier and developer of young talent once he left for the Chiefs. Maybe he was famous for it in Tampa but I don't recall that claim ever being made either.

How have the free-agent aquisitions been in KC? He was kind of snakebit here in New York. Either we got the Ty Law types who found in the Jets the very last team in the league who was prepared to meet their inflated price, or we got the bottom of the barrel guys who we insisted on paying like a mid-level free agent. Anyone decent might talk to the Jets to pump up the price with the two or three teams theyt wanted to go to.

We do have several rising stars here in NY now who, while they did not name Herm directly, are on record as saying what amazing differences there are between the old regime and the new one. Specifically, the guys who are practicing the best and shown the best in training camp and preseason are the ones who get the call to suit up on Sunday (Jericho Cotchery famously made that statement). The inference clearly was that he had been doing what he had been doing all along while Herm was in New York.




OUCH! Truth hurts :(
Brian Thomas after his breakout season last year made statements about how much he had learned and how he appreciated the changeover to a system where players were taught what they were supposed to do an why they were supposed to be doing it. The clear inference here was that coaching and game planning under Herm were not terribly cereberal affairs.

Herm is a great evaluator of the best microphone to use in press conferences and he has Curly Dick for everything else. That is about it. Oh, and he is also a champion thrower under the bus of anyone not named Herm.

[FringeNC]

Brian Thomas after his breakout season last year made statements about how much he had learned and how he appreciated the changeover to a system where players were taught what they were supposed to do an why they were supposed to be doing it. The clear inference here was that coaching and game planning under Herm were not terribly cereberal affairs.


There is much more to being a successful coach than motivating a team. It's amazing to me that two GMs have hired this clown.

[Coach]

This is a really good article.

I think it's so funny the way everyone talks about Herm like he did something really bad to everyones mother. I especially like the comment about how Herm is worse than Carl. What?!?

Here's what I know about Edwards, you may have a biased slant you want to add that'll make him sound worse in your eyes that's fine.

He went to the playoffs three times in five years, winning two playoff games, once beating the Colts 41-0. Two of those years he did it with Chad Pennington at QB, which should make any coach a finalist for coach of the year, and the last year he had the 12th ranked offense and the 7th D. I call that nice and balanced.

Look it's fine if to think that Herm is the worst person who ever lived, I think your wrong. I do think it's silly that earlier everyone agreed that the Chiefs were rebuilding, and everyone seemed to be okay with rebuilding, in fact some seemed like they were looking forward to it, like a great cleansing of the remnants of the Vermeil mess. Well, we are rebuilding. What do you think happens during a rebuilding? Does the team play better than before? No! The teams gonna suck for a bit. If Herm can get his players and more importantly his coaches, this team will be better. Much better. I think Herm can be a super bowl coach, I'm willing to let him try with a roster he wants, it's not there yet. Hopefully next year with a new o-line and more on D, we'll start the turn around. I just think it's crazy to proclaim Herm's time a disaster when we're not finished with year two yet for a team that just barley has his players on it.

This is what's happened so far under Herm

year 1 : 9-7 and playoffs with a team that should have gone 5-11.
year 2: 4-8 with no line, flux at QB, RB. The real start of the rebuilding.

I have no problem believing that next year will get better then the year after better than that. It's how these things turn out sometimes. What I don't want to be is the Raiders always firing their coaches after one year, because they lost too many games. And what happens? They are constantly in year one of rebuilding. If some how Herm got fired after this year like everyone wants, my guess is that next year would be a copy of this one. Would you be more patient with the next losing coach?

Shit, today's game makes the Titanic look like a pleasure cruise instead of a disaster.

[rrl308]

I don't necessary agree that Herm is the best Coach out there, but he does deserve at least another year or two. This teams problems mostly come the one we all love King Carl. Just take a look at the five drafts we had before Herm got here. This has got to be the worst 5 year stretch OF any team in NFL history.

2001
3.Eric Downing
3.Snoop Minnis
4.Monty Beisel
5.Billy Baber
5.Derrick Blaylock
6.Alex Sulfsted (who)
7.Shaunard Harts
7.Terdell Sands


2002
1.Ryan Sims (We all know how this turned out)
2.Eddie Freeman
4.Omar Easy
5.Scott Fujita
7.Maurice Rodriguez (who #2)


2003
1. Larry Johnson (good pick now but we needed Defense at the time
2.Kawika Mitchell
3.Julian Battle (The next Albert Lewis)
4.Brett Williams
5.Jordan Black
6.Jimmy Wilkerson
7.Willie Pile
7.Montique Sharp


2004
2.Junior Siavii
2.Kris Wilson
3.Keyaron Fox
4.Jared Allen
4.Samie Parker
6.Jeris Mcintyre
7.Kevin Sampson

2005
1.Derrick Johnson
3.Dustin colquitt
4.Craphonso Thorpe
5.Boomer Grigsby
6.Khari Long
6.Will Svitek
7.James Kilian
7.Jeremy Parquet


O.K five freaking years we knew are O-line was getting older not one O-lineman drafted in the top 3 rounds. Carl has to go people.

[PastorMikH]

I don't necessary agree that Herm is the best Coach out there, but he does deserve at least another year or two.



Herm MIGHT be able to put something together if he stayed, but it would require Solari, Curl as QB coach, whoever the Special teams coach is, and Carl gone for him to have any chance of success.


I think Herm has done better in the draft than we've done in years, but there are teams/HCs around the league doing better then him right now too.

[GoTrav]

Good article by Whitlock, but I think it will become apparent at the end of year three that Herm is never going to do anything here. I see our ceiling as 9-7 next year.



This is the only part of the article I take issue with. I doubt very seriously that Solari will allow himself to be treated like Gunther (foot shuffling porter), and Dick Curl will be Herm's righthand man until death does them part.

Agree with this, isn't Herm is the same guy that tried the Jimmy Rae and Paul Hackett experiences in NY? Chiefs fans could have told him how that would pan out...

I'm confident Herm can find talent, or at least playable talent that can get on the field, it may not be lights out talent (Pollard, Paige), which Herm likes to hang his hat on as "young" players that are seeing PT, but I have serious doubts about his ability to identify offensive talent. One because he doesn't put a priority on it (Hermball TM), and two because he's an offensive simpleton.

I agree with the part of needing a change at GM; a GM that can protect Herm from himself, much like Dungy's current situation in Indy.

[C-Mac]

I'm confident Herm can find talent, or at least playable talent that can get on the field, it may not be lights out talent (Pollard, Paige), which Herm likes to hang his hat on as "young" players that are seeing PT, but I have serious doubts about his ability to identify offensive talent. One because he doesn't put a priority on it (Hermball TM), and two because he's an offensive simpleton.
Like Dewayne Bowe and Kolby Smith?

[Rasputin]

It's not about Herm deserving a chance or time to build this team. It's KC Chiefs, City, Fans, & all who love the Chiefs deserve the best Coach a GM can find, and a new GM to find that Coach.

[GoTrav]

Like Dewayne Bowe and Kolby Smith?

Bowe is a first round pick...isn't that the one pick you shouldn't mess up? There's no need to suck off anyone for getting a legit starter from their first rounder.

Kolby Smith 13 carries for 12 yards...he's had one good game.

[EM31]

Bowe is a first round pick...isn't that the one pick you shouldn't mess up? There's no need to suck off anyone for getting a legit starter from their first rounder.

Kolby Smith 13 carries for 12 yards...he's had one good game.
Not only that but a first rounder is someone that not even Herm could bury in the bench without it raising serious questions.

[Messier]

Bowe is a first round pick...isn't that the one pick you shouldn't mess up? There's no need to suck off anyone for getting a legit starter from their first rounder.

Kolby Smith 13 carries for 12 yards...he's had one good game.


I'd say most years the first round has 10 to 15 good players that end up starting. So it's never a sure thing. Just sayin' is all.

[Coach]

Jeez Whitlock, I'm sick of people still searching for a rose in a heaping pile of shit! :shake:

I keep looking for signs that this team is heading in the right direction and searching for evidence-based arguments that Herm and Carl are capable of building something better than mediocrity.

Guess what, I'm not finding a ****ing thing.

[TEX]

The longer Herm's here the more it will become evident thathe souldn't be. Wow, the rebuilt defense sure looked good today! ROFL So did all the "talent" Herm personally drafted because he's so good at drafting... :rolleyes:

[C-Mac]

Bowe is a first round pick...isn't that the one pick you shouldn't mess up? There's no need to suck off anyone for getting a legit starter from their first rounder.

Kolby Smith 13 carries for 12 yards...he's had one good game.


Its easy to pick legit WR starters, just ask the folks at Detroit.

[Archie Bunker]

I see no reason for Herm to return next year. His team has quit on him and that tells me all I need to know. If the Chiefs were putting up a fight each week and showed any signs of life I'd give Herm one more year but the damage is done IMO.

There is a dark cloud hanging over this franchise and the only way to get rid of it is to fire Carl, Herm and everyone on down.

[jjjayb]

Like Dewayne Bowe and Kolby Smith?


I was pretty high on Bowe his first couple games. But the more he plays, the more I see him drop simple easy passes, the more I'm growing to dislike him. How can the same guy who goes up between 3 defenders to catch a ball completely overthrown be the same one who drops so many that hit him in the frigging hands. It's getting old.

[Tits McGee]

Every time I here the word "rebuild" regarding the Chiefs, I think "destroyed," as in, Herm and Co. destroyed a once high scoring offense. I realize retirements and injuries have changed the complexion of this team.
Carl should have some foresight to either; draft, FA or develop talent, he does neither particularly well.

[Calcountry]

Do you really want to blow it all up in the middle of the plan? Herm IS trying to rebuild the roster and doing a decent job.

If you truly hate Herm, let work out two more drafts, and then led a real head coach use his talent.Maybe because the new coach won't want to run it so damn much and would build the team differently.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Herm is not success, he should be execute.

[HemiEd]

Yep, I predict if he remains the Chiefs HC, mediocrity is something we are going to dream of. He has not proven that he knows how to win, but he has sure as hell proven he knows how to lose.

How does mediocrity sound to anyone now? Does this sound familiar?

[Dave Lane]

Well we are already better than last year. You are what your record says you are. So maybe we can get one more win and double last years record. The process up from where we have fallen is a long path. There is no way any coach goes anywhere with this team. Really I have to say much like Pioli and Haley are surprised I'm surprised by how far this team had fallen.

[T-post Tom]

You are what your record says you are.

omg, you're denny green. another celeb on CP.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0300/8584/dennis_green_feature.jpg

[Mecca]

Well we are already better than last year. You are what your record says you are. So maybe we can get one more win and double last years record. The process up from where we have fallen is a long path. There is no way any coach goes anywhere with this team. Really I have to say much like Pioli and Haley are surprised I'm surprised by how far this team had fallen.

We're really not better...

[OnTheWarpath15]

We're really not better...

But, but, we've won more games!

[Rain Man]

People, people. Regardless of the "now", we should be looking at the future. Herm Edwards had no future. Herm Edwards played to win the field position battle, not the score. Herm Edwards was far too conservative for the 21st-century NFL. He was still coaching based on the principles he say as a player before the passing rules were liberalized.

Whatever you think about Haley, you can't say he's too conservative. I'd rather die charging the enemy than die cowering in my foxhole. At least Haley is charging.

[ChiefsCountry]

This team was in better shape last December. And fuck no do I want Herm back either, just saying.

[OnTheWarpath15]

People, people. Regardless of the "now", we should be looking at the future. Herm Edwards had no future. Herm Edwards played to win the field position battle, not the score. Herm Edwards was far too conservative for the 21st-century NFL. He was still coaching based on the principles he say as a player before the passing rules were liberalized.

Whatever you think about Haley, you can't say he's too conservative. I'd rather die charging the enemy than die cowering in my foxhole. At least Haley is charging.

Yep, Haley is charging.

On 4th and forever from his own 28 yard line in a tight game.

[Mecca]

Herm was conservative, Haley is a flaming dumbass, there's not much difference.

[DumbHillbillies]

Well we are already better than last year. You are what your record says you are. So maybe we can get one more win and double last years record. The process up from where we have fallen is a long path. There is no way any coach goes anywhere with this team. Really I have to say much like Pioli and Haley are surprised I'm surprised by how far this team had fallen.

Bullshit. We are no better than we were last year.

[DaneMcCloud]

Well we are already better than last year. You are what your record says you are. So maybe we can get one more win and double last years record. The process up from where we have fallen is a long path. There is no way any coach goes anywhere with this team. Really I have to say much like Pioli and Haley are surprised I'm surprised by how far this team had fallen.

Uh...

[kcxiv]

lol, ya know the old saying goes, you are what your record says. we were 2-14 last year and are 3-11 this year.

it is what it is.

[Warrior5]

Wow... Whitlock defending a coach after two seasons because he inherited crappy players.

I'm no Haley worshiper, but he hasn't even had one full season yet, and inherited even less talent than Herm had. Glad to see Whit backing Haley like he did Herm... oh, wait!

[whatsmynameagain]

Wow... Whitlock defending a coach after two seasons because he inherited crappy players.

I'm no Haley worshiper, but he hasn't even had one full season yet, and inherited even less talent than Herm had. Glad to see Whit backing Haley like he did Herm... oh, wait!

JASON WHITLOCK DOESNT LIKE WHITE PEOPLE
Posted via Mobile Device

[Reerun_KC]

JASON WHITLOCK DOESNT LIKE WHITE PEOPLE
Posted via Mobile Device

Well no shit.. 99% of his articles are racially motivated against Haley...

It doesnt take a fucking genious to figure that out...

[Mecca]

I'm against Haley also, it's because I have a prejudice against stupid people.

[DeezNutz]

Well no shit.. 99% of his articles are racially motivated against Haley...

It doesnt take a ****ing genious to figure that out...

You can't really believe this, right?

[ChiefsCountry]

You can't really believe this, right?

Reerun doesn't give a shit as long as its not Herm he is happy.

[DeezNutz]

Reerun doesn't give a shit as long as its not Herm he is happy.

It's difficult to reconcile the absurdity of the fact that Herm is a better game day coach than Haley.

What a ****ing joke that is. Sad.