how depressing is it to be a chiefs fan?

[broncobilly]

on a scale from 1-10 how depressing do you see your attachment to this perennial bunch of losers as?

i'd say an 8.

[Dartgod]

F_ck off, troll

[Shox]

This is a bad team because our Oline is horrible. However, you put 2 quality O-lineman and this team would be a playoff team.

The bad news is our CBs might be ready to breakdown so when we plug some holes in the offensive line next year will our D still be able to hold up.

[Bwana]

Likely not as depressing as it was for your parents having you as a child. That had to be a 10 hands down.

[baitism]

Anything beats living in Denver...

[Phobia]

I'm not depressed at all. I know my team sucks and will be in the market for a stud in April.

[TN_Chief]

I'm not depressed...not at all. I'm ****ing pissed off.

[HolmeZz]

When are the Broncos planning on making the playoffs again?

[Bugeater]

Beer. Dulls. Pain.

[King_Chief_Fan]

on a scale from 1-10 how depressing do you see your attachment to this perennial bunch of losers as?

i'd say an 8.

says the backer of a 6-7 team. Good thing you get to play the Chiefs twice or you might be 4-9 yourself.
You will have the same seat as Chiefs fans in the playoffs and will have to wait to get your pick of next year talent after the Chiefs.ROFL

[morphius]

2 weeks vacation for billy, he didn't post last week, so no smack now.

[JohninGpt]

A Denver fan gloating :holdman: . Yeah the Chiefs suck this year, but the donks aren't exactly world beaters.

[vailpass]

on a scale from 1-10 how depressing do you see your attachment to this perennial bunch of losers as?

i'd say an 8.

Dude stop. You sound almost as bad as fader fan crowing after we stepped on our own dick in the Oakland ghetto last week.

[blueballs]

Rat will do what Peterson has done
keep treading water but with trades
and lower draft picks

[Rain Man]

It's Sunday. Shouldn't you be in Elwaychurch worshiping Elway?

[vailpass]

It's Sunday. Shouldn't you be in Elwaychurch worshiping Elway?

Elway church? Where? I'm so ****ing there.
I remeber the time I saw Elway in the bar knocking back mixers and smoking Marlboro Lights. I'm pretty sure the Catholic church would allow me to worship at John's church on off days.

[Iowanian]

Go clubbin in a donkey jersey. Be sure to have your posse insult some gangsters.

[|Zach|]

I really enjoyed my Sunday. Got all the friends together for the game.

[vailpass]

Go clubbin in a donkey jersey. Be sure to have your posse insult some gangsters.

Brrr...that's some cold shit 'wanian.
Make sure Jared Allen is your designated driver. :evil:

[Rain Man]

Elway church? Where? I'm so ****ing there.
I remeber the time I saw Elway in the bar knocking back mixers and smoking Marlboro Lights. I'm pretty sure the Catholic church would allow me to worship at John's church on off days.

The Church of Elway prohibits other religions, fair play, and visits to Baltimore.

[JohninGpt]

I really enjoyed my Sunday. Got all the friends together for the game.
Pit. vs NE?

[|Zach|]

Pit. vs NE?
Nah, we watched the Chiefs game and cooked up some good food and just kicked back. I guess it is really depressing if you don't have anything else in your life. :hmmm:

[vailpass]

The Church of Elway prohibits other religions, fair play, and visits to Baltimore.

:) Can I still smoke and drink?

[vailpass]

Nah, we watched the Chiefs game and cooked up some good food and just kicked back. I guess it is really depressing if you don't have anything else in your life. :hmmm:

You small town hippies are SO enlightened. :)

[|Zach|]

You small town hippies are SO enlightened. :)
Heh, I live in a large metropolitan area. My friends can be described in a lot of ways. Hippies isn't one of them.

[Rain Man]

:) Can I still smoke and drink?

The Elwayscriptures allow smoking and drinking, but only during the annual Pam Festival, which celebrates the time when Elway and his disciples covered themselves in vegetable oil to win a battle that was otherwise lost.

[vailpass]

Heh, I live in a large metropolitan area. My friends can be described in a lot of ways. Hippies isn't one of them.

Heh, large metro area? Guess I was thrown off by the Springtown thing.

[SoCalBronco]

Eh...this is just the nature of the NFL for basically everybody (except for maybe NE), its a rollercoaster. God knows this year has been pretty bad for us on balance, too, despite today's game. It's a cycle folks and it happens to everyone. The whole division has alot of work to do this offseason, including SD. We've all got to get alot better.

[|Zach|]

Heh, large metro area? Guess I was thrown off by the Springtown thing.
Oh wow, hadn't seen that in a while. Moved to Kansas City in June.

[vailpass]

Eh...this is just the nature of the NFL for basically everybody (except for maybe NE), its a rollercoaster. God knows this year has been pretty bad for us on balance, too, despite today's game. It's a cycle folks and it happens to everyone. The whole division has alot of work to do this offseason, including SD. We've all got to get alot better.

You don't remember when NE sucked ass for 10 years? Elway never lost a game to the patsies in his entire career. Sharpe called in the National Guard to help their bedraggled team one year.

[vailpass]

Oh wow, hadn't seen that in a while. Moved to Kansas City in June.

I was just funnin' with ya' anyway. I spent a summer banging a girl from Springfield when I was in grad school in Denver. She was F I N E fine.

[Rain Man]

You don't remember when NE sucked ass for 10 years? Elway never lost a game to the patsies in his entire career. Sharpe called in the National Guard to help their bedraggled team one year.

The Church of Elway contends that it was actually Elway who made the call. He just channeled through Sharpe.

[JohninGpt]

Nah, we watched the Chiefs game and cooked up some good food and just kicked back. I guess it is really depressing if you don't have anything else in your life. :hmmm:
Sounds like a good time. I'm looking forward to next year for several reasons, not the least of which is I'll be moving back to somewhere where I know more people and will have friends and family around who are also Chiefs fans.

[|Zach|]

Springfield was a good town. I was ready for the next thing though.

[|Zach|]

Sounds like a good time. I'm looking forward to next year for several reasons, not the least of which is I'll be moving back to somewhere where I know more people and will have friends and family around who are also Chiefs fans.
Thats what it is about...enjoying the game with friends and family...

People seem to forget that.

[1ChiefsDan]

Is it any better to be a donx fan? 7-9 is going to be a great season? Go lick your own ass dog breath.

[Rain Man]

Thats what it is about...enjoying the game with friends and family...

People seem to forget that.

The Church of Elway holds a different philosophy.

[|Zach|]

The Church of Elway holds a different philosophy.
I won't be tithing.

[JohninGpt]

The Church of Elway holds a different philosophy.
You should watch the game with Elway...at Circuit City.

[SoCalBronco]

You don't remember when NE sucked ass for 10 years? Elway never lost a game to the patsies in his entire career. Sharpe called in the National Guard to help their bedraggled team one year.

Ofcourse I remember that.....but I was speaking more of recent history, like this decade, basically everyone except them has had ups and downs, just to illustrate to our Chief friends that this is basically a cycle that happens to everyone and thats just how it is in the NFL, the rollercoaster will go back up again, same with our team, this year on the whole has been pretty gay, the rollercoaster will definitely go back up pretty soon with DEN too, IMO (I love our young players like Jay, B-Marsh, Scheff, young backs, young OL, Doom, Crowder, DJ etc.)

[|Zach|]

SoCal, you really think losing this game would have been better for your team? Those are a few draft spots.

[vailpass]

Ofcourse I remember that.....but I was speaking more of recent history, like this decade, basically everyone except them has had ups and downs, just to illustrate to our Chief friends that this is basically a cycle that happens to everyone and thats just how it is in the NFL, the rollercoaster will go back up again, same with our team, this year on the whole has been pretty gay, the rollercoaster will definitely go back up pretty soon with DEN too, IMO (I love our young players like Jay, B-Marsh, Scheff, young backs, young OL, Doom, Crowder, DJ etc.)
:toast: Points well taken.

[SoCalBronco]

SoCal, you really think losing this game would have been better for your team? Those are a few draft spots.

Yes, I would have preferred to lose, even though I am enjoying the short term good feeling of a big win over a rival. The benefits gained in moving up even a few slots are real and very important for a number of reasons, certainly far superior than winning some meaningless games, I know the latter approach has an emotional surface appeal, but I don't think its rational. I've tried to look at the four or five major arguments in favor of that approach and I have not been persuaded by them. The draft benefits are simply more important than some wins when you know that you aren't going anywhere.

[vailpass]

The Elwayscriptures allow smoking and drinking, but only during the annual Pam Festival, which celebrates the time when Elway and his disciples covered themselves in vegetable oil to win a battle that was otherwise lost.

History of course would not acknowledge the exscuses, but would instead glorify the victors and reward them with wine, women, and song.

[|Zach|]

Yes, I would have preferred to lose, even though I am enjoying the short term good feeling of a big win over a rival. The benefits gained in moving up even a few slots are real and very important for a number of reasons, certainly far superior than winning some meaningless games, I know the latter approach has an emotional surface appeal, but I don't think its rational. I've tried to look at the four or five major arguments in favor of that approach and I have not been persuaded by them. The draft benefits are simply more important than some wins when you know that you aren't going anywhere.
Hilarious.

[vailpass]

Yes, I would have preferred to lose, even though I am enjoying the short term good feeling of a big win over a rival. The benefits gained in moving up even a few slots are real and very important for a number of reasons, certainly far superior than winning some meaningless games, I know the latter approach has an emotional surface appeal (I want us to win no matter what), but I don't think its rational. I've tried to look at the four or five major arguments in favor of that approach and I have not been persuaded by them. The draft benefits are simply more important than some wins when you know that you aren't going anywhere.

While I appreciate your rational approach I simply can't get with the idea of wanting to lose a game, any game.
For me the whole idea of being a fan is the transcendence of rationality in favor of zealousness.
I think having played the game for a while influences this view; wanting to lose was never even a thought.

[morphius]

Really, I now just laugh at the team. It is actually funny to watch a team play so bad. If it leads to some cleaning house, all the better.

[|Zach|]

I think having played the game for a while influences this view; wanting to lose was never even a thought.
No doubt, you have to look yourself in the mirror the next day.

[dirk digler]

Yes, I would have preferred to lose, even though I am enjoying the short term good feeling of a big win over a rival. The benefits gained in moving up even a few slots are real and very important for a number of reasons, certainly far superior than winning some meaningless games, I know the latter approach has an emotional surface appeal, but I don't think its rational. I've tried to look at the four or five major arguments in favor of that approach and I have not been persuaded by them. The draft benefits are simply more important than some wins when you know that you aren't going anywhere.

I can't speak for the Broncos but no one will convince me that winning a game is going to help the Chiefs at all.

I see no value at all for the Chiefs to try to win a game especially when a large portion of this team won't be back here next year.

[vailpass]

No doubt, you have to look yourself in the mirror the next day.

Yep and your teammates and coaches. Not only that but the pros are fighting for a job for next year every game and want to be at their best no matter what.

[SoCalBronco]

Hilarious.

Why is it hilarious? I'll cut and paste (below) my evaluation of the arguments on the other side of the issue (that I find unpersuasive) that I posted earlier on the Mane, tell me what you disagree with, Zach (and vailpass)..btw, Zach I actually had mentioned you and one of the arguments you had presented in this too:


From what I've seen, there are at least four general types of arguments made in opposition to those of us who feel it would be in the best long term interests of the team to lose out in the final four games. IMHO, none of them have sufficient merit (but I understand those who feel differently, its all good, we're all on the same side, just with different views).

1. The Draft is a Crapshoot

My response: This is probably the most oft-repeated argument made. The draft is certainly not a science. But, the other extreme interpretation, a "crapshoot" is just as wrong. In fact, ALL 32 TEAMS DISAGREE with this proposition. How do I figure? Well, if this statement were true, we would see a large number of teams wanting to trade down from very high spots in a 1 for 1 swap, with no additional compensation whatsoever. After all, if it were really a crapshoot, everyone would rather take the the least risky and least costly situation available (i.e. If its just a crapshoot I'd much rather let someone else have the slot with 20m guaranteed to the player instead of me and take that bigger risk), but ofcourse this never happens. Anytime someone is going up, they've usually got to fork out a great deal, illustrating the value involved here, agreed upon by all. Additionally, generally speaking, on average, the higher rounds, as expected, have higher hit rates than the lower ones. That is, your average 2nd round pick will hit more often than your average 4th for example. So, the talent evaluation, while not perfect, is generally roughly accurate, with some exceptions here and there, that is until you get to the area where the draft starts to thin out (the fourth tier of prospects) and becomes just, as some GMs have put it, "first dibs" on prime UDFAs. This is generally only fairly late in the draft, like the 6-7 area and sometimes, when you have an especially shallow draft, it is the 5-6-7 area. That's really the only place where it can be reasonably described as throwing darts in the dark.

2. Assuming arguendo that the Draft is not a Crapshoot, we still should not lose out because DEN in particular can't draft anyway.

This is a popular myth. The FO has made many mistakes, and gets alot of criticism, much of it warranted, but this is one area where there is too much unjustified criticism. We tend to think about the high profile busts we have had and also the 03 draft in particular that was really terrible and that creates a misconception that we can't draft, or that we are poor drafters. People also sometimes use statistics that are terribly deceptive and grossly undercount our successes such as "well only x % of our draftees are still here so that proves that we cant draft" That's not so. I think the team has compiled a credible record this century. We've had our misses, and Sundy isn't Ozzie Newsome, but we have done quite decently here, I think, especially the last few years. I won't go through reposting the whole thing again but I touched on this in a little detail earlier, discussing why the above often used method of analysis is wrong and what method I think is better to use (and is more accurate also) and under that new method, how we have done, here:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1776578#post1776578
(Post 38)

Regardless of the result of any given pick, however, just as a general matter, there is absolutely a key benefit involved here. Not just the ability to choose from a better pool of players, but also the ability to have a more attractive selection in which to trade down with and gain more picks to fill more holes. It also helps insure us against being desperate. For example, if we won a few more useless games, we might be in a situation where 2 of our 3 targets again would be gone and we have to move up (and sacrifice a pick needlessly) a few spots to ensure we get that final target. These are real benefits, important ones to be sure. And the key thing..the MOST IMPORTANT THING is that we are not giving up anything in exchange, I would NEVER advocate tanking if we had a reasonable shot of doing something, because thats the end goal, to win, to advance to the postseason and have the ability to do something there, etc. But here, at 5-7, we know that we do nto have a reasonable shot at anything of value. We know that already. So there is nothing to counterbalance the benefit on the other side.

3. There is an intangible benefit to finishing strong that carries over (or the inverse, as Zach put it, "losing begets losing").

As you can see there are two different ways of putting this. The problem with the first way is a multitude of evidentiary problems. It's essentially impossible to prove. If a team had a bad season but finished out with 3 wins in their last 4 or something and started out the next year 4-1, it would not necessarily follow that their fast start was primarily due (or due in any substantial way) to their finish the year before. There are a host of confounding variables in the NFL, including but not limited to: a) The approximate 33% roster turnover each year, b) the quality of opponent in that early portion of the season, c) coaching changes/system issues, d) injuries, e) bad/good bounces etc. It is very easy to show a situation where we know for a fact that there is NO effect of the prior season (i.e. when the next season starts out poorly), but it is very hard to say there is a connection even when there is a strong start due to all these variables. Another problem with this line of thought is that its largely theoretical and if you looked at its implications in a practical way, it would look absurd: Is Travis Henry going to read the wrong hole because of something that happened last year? Is Tony Scheffler going to run a choppier Stick route because we lost to SD, HOU and MIN to close out the season? Give me a break.

I also want to address the inverse way of saying basically the same thing, which was put forth by Zach. You might be able to make a colorable argument if the situation was like the Cardinals/Bengals/Lions where there has been a culture of extreme losing every year for over a decade and how further losing would contribute to perpetuating the cycle. But that's a far cry from what we have here. We have a one year deal, where it's really been Murphy's Law at work most of the time, in the midst of a team that generally, over the years, wins about 60% of the time, and we are talking about 2 or 3 losses here. It's hardly similar. If you look at our history this century, you'll find that we generally already have a tendency to finish poorly and start fast the next year, so that counters that whole line of thought anyway.

4. It's just inherently wrong for fans to root against their team, regardless of the reason advanced, it means you are a bad fan.

This is the most self righteous and shortsighted argument of all of them. No one wants to lose. No one wants anything that is bad for the team. There is simply a disagreement on what is best under the circumstances. The people who are on my side of the aisle are just as much fans and just as hardcore as the others, we just have an alternative viewpoint. You don't have to accept it, it isnt being shoved down your throat, but it is a LEGITIMATE and very defensible viewpoint to have. Again, because we are going nowhere, with no reasonable possibility of going to the playoffs, and there are, as discussed above, real, tangible benefits to this approach, with no proveable detriments, it is certainly WELL WITHIN the boundaries of reasonable and rational disagreement to have this view. There's nothing wrong with it. I understand that there is an emotional surface appeal to "rooting for the team to win every game no matter what" and obviously about 98% of the time, winning is indisputably in our best interest. But there are fairly rare situations where one can rationally say it is not so. This is one of them. There are a couple others, which are fairly rare, but do exist. For example, in a situation where the team qualified for the playoffs and was to play on the road in Round 1 and the opponent would depend on whether the team won or lost their last game, it wouldnt be irrational at all to hope for a loss if it would lead to playing against the team that you happen to match up with better. Another situation would be, for example, the situation I encountered last year with one of my other teams, where the team wasnt going anywhere that year and it was the consensus view of virtually everyone that the head coach had systematically destroyed the entire program over the course of a few years. It was certainly not unreasonable for me to wish for a few more losses to ensure that he would be fired when it appeared that he might survive if the year did not end in a complete cluster****. These are some of the scenarios where I think it would also be justified to root for a loss, because there is a higher benefit you are looking at for the team, its something more important than a game which has been rendered meaningless.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1806253#post1806253

[vailpass]

[QUOTE=SoCalBronco]Why is it hilarious? I'll cut and paste (below) my evaluation of the arguments on the other side of the issue (that I find unpersuasive) that I posted earlier on the Mane, tell me what you disagree with, Zach (and vailpass)..btw, Zach I actually had mentioned you and one of the arguments you had presented in this too:/Quote]




You present a cogent and well documented argument. We disagree on a fundamental element put forth in your last point: your point of view lets you believe it is hubris to say you never want to lose when, in your view, it is logical to do so.
This flies in the face of that which a different type of fan believes and so undercuts your argument. This fundamental flaw doesn't make you wrong but shows you come from a different place than those who believe you play to win or you cheat yourself, your teammates, and your coaches.

[Simply Red]

It's only because Gaz has left.

[vailpass]

It's only because Gaz has left.

somewhere there is a hot tub, a bottle of Tequila Rose, and a wayward engineer that agrees with you.

[dirk digler]

All good points SoCal and I agree with pretty much what you said.

The Chiefs have so many holes to fill and IMO are going to turn over half the roster next year we need that high draft pick to start a foundation to build back up to a playoff team

[StcChief]

at least we aren't Miami fans....

[stevieray]

..almost as depressing as you being here at 6-7...

[SoCalBronco]

[QUOTE=SoCalBronco]Why is it hilarious? I'll cut and paste (below) my evaluation of the arguments on the other side of the issue (that I find unpersuasive) that I posted earlier on the Mane, tell me what you disagree with, Zach (and vailpass)..btw, Zach I actually had mentioned you and one of the arguments you had presented in this too:/Quote]




You present a cogent and well documented argument. We disagree on a fundamental element put forth in your last point: your point of view lets you believe it is hubris to say you never want to lose when, in your view, it is logical to do so.
This flies in the face of that which a different type of fan believes and so undercuts your argument. This fundamental flaw doesn't make you wrong but shows you come from a different place than those who believe you play to win or you cheat yourself, your teammates, and your coaches.

Eh...I don't think I come from a different place than other fans, I love the team just as much as any fan, I just feel we should look at things from the perspective of what is in the team's best interest and obviously I agree that like 98 percent of the time, it is in the best iinterest to win, that is obvious, but I am just saying there are some fairly rare occasions when there could be some rational disagreement on the question of whether, in a given situation, it is or it isnt in the best interest to win. I understand and respect your perspective though.

[morphius]

Though I don't want anyone to confuse me with laughing at the team, with not hating it completely just the same.

[Bowser]

Oh, and congrats to the Broncos for winning your Super Bowl this year. We'll save a spot on the couch for you come playoff time.

[vailpass]

Eh...I don't think I come from a different place than other fans, I love the team just as much as any fan, I just feel we should look at things from the perspective of what is in the team's best interest and obviously I agree that like 98 percent of the time, it is in the best iinterest to win, that is obvious, but I am just saying there are some fairly rare occasions when there could be some rational disagreement on the question of whether, in a given situation, it is or it isnt in the best interest to win. I understand and respect your perspective though.

We're cool as long as you say it is NEVER okay to lose to the faders no matter what. ;)

[Simply Red]

somewhere there is a hot tub, a bottle of Tequila Rose, and a wayward engineer that agrees with you.
:) pretty much.

[morphius]

There was one thing that was obvious today, the Bronco's still believe that they could be a good team, I don't believe the Chiefs believe that right now. That is the only scary part.

[onescrewleftuntwisted]

chiefs might not have done well this year, but the donks always will suck donkey nuts embedded with broken glass