Do people really want Mike Shula as OC?

[Chiefnj2]

I understand about his connection with Croyle, and think he did a very good job with Garrard in Jax, but do people really want him as the guy calling plays?

In his last stint as an OC with Tampa, he wasn't that good.

In terms of points scored here was Tampa's ranking:

1996 - 30th
1997 - 23rd
1998 - 18th
1999 - 27th

Yikes.

[morphius]

sounds like the O that Herm wants to build...

[FringeNC]

Yeah, I have no idea why anyone would want Shula as OC. He's by far the guy I want least among the names that have been thrown about.

[BigRock]

I'm not endorsing Shula by any means, but I don't think it's entirely fair to blame him for those numbers. Don't forget, Dungy got fired because of their crappy offense like 3 years after Shula left.

[talastan]

I think that his knowledge of Brodie could help. Defintely would love to have him as a QB coach. Don't know about the OC position.

[Chiefnj2]

I'm not endorsing Shula by any means, but I don't think it's entirely fair to blame him for those numbers. Don't forget, Dungy got fired because of their crappy offense like 3 years after Shula left.

Wouldn't Herm/Shula be a worse combo than Dungy/Shula?

[Zouk]

I still think that Bucs team would have beaten the high flying Rams in 1999 and gone to the Super Bowl if they had started Trent Dilfer over Shaun King. King was inept in that game and they ended up losing 11-6. The Rams had scored 30 points or more in each of their prior 7 games, but the Bucs held them to 3 points through 3 quarters in that game in St. Louis. If Shula had a role in recommending King over Dilfer that's a knock against him in my opinion.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm pretty indifferent about Shula, but in his defense, it's not like he had any talent to work with.

1996: A 24 year old Trent Dilfer at QB, Errict Rhett at RB and Courtney Hawkins and Robb Thomas at WR. Mike Alstott was the leading receiver on the team, if that tells you anything. 13.8 PPG.

1997: Things are getting a bit better with the addition of Rookie Warrick Dunn, who just misses 1000 yards rushing. WR's are Karl Williams and Reidel Anthony. Yuck. 18.7 PPG. Playoff appearance.

1998: Great running game with Dunn/Alstott combining for just under 2000 yards. Still crap at the WR position with Anthony and Bert Emanuel. 19.6 PPG.

1999: Same cast of characters, except Shaun King started 6 games and Jacquez Green was the #1 receiver. NFC Championship appearance. 16.9 PPG.



Honestly, considering that sad sack of "talent" they had on offense outside of Dunn/Alstott, it's not THAT bad.

I'd be curious as to what he could accomplish with not only a good running game, but some decent WR's/TE as well.

[el borracho]

ROFL I forgot all about Shaun King! ROFL

[Reerun_KC]

Does it really matter? With Herm here, we will never have anything that resembles an NFL offense. He never has nor will he ever...

[FloridaMan88]

I did a detailed analysis in a thread a few weeks back that showed the vivid details of the horror that is a Mike Shula-led offense. This was in response to Kcjohnny's wet dream about Shula becoming the Chiefs next OC.

It isn't pretty...

These are the final offensive statistics for the Bucs' offense during Shula's 4 seasons as their offensive coordinator from 1996-1999.

1996:
Total offense ypg: 269.8 ypg (28th out of 30 teams)
passing ypg: 170.4 ypg (29th out of 30 teams)
rushing ypg: 99.3 ypg (22nd out of 30 teams)
Points scored per game: 13.8 ppg (30th out 30 teams)

1997:
Total offense ypg: 273.5 ypg (29th out of 30 teams)
passing ypg: 152.6 ypg (30th out of 30 teams)
rushing ypg: 120.9 ypg (11th out of 30 teams)
Points scored per game: 18.8 ppg (23rd out of 30 teams)

1998:
Total offense ypg: 297.1 (22nd out of 30 teams)
passing ypg: 162.9 (27th out of 30 teams)
rushing ypg: 134.2 ypg (4th out of 30 teams)
Points scored per game: 19.6 ppg (18th out of 30 teams)

1999:
Total offense ypg: 265.9 ypg (28th out of 31 teams)
passing ypg: 154.9 ypg (30th out of 31 teams)
rushing ypg: 111.0 ypg (15th out of 31 teams)
Points scored per game: 16.9 ypg (27th out of 31 teams)


And his offensive #'s while at Alabama...

2003:
Points scored per game: 25.5 ppg (69th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 191.6 ypg (85th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 159.0 ypg (54th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 366.1 ypg (81st out of 117 Division IA teams)

2004:
Points scored per game: 24.6 ppg (tied-64th out 117 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 141.6 ypg (112th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 185.1 ypg (26th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 336.6 ypg (94th out of 117 Division IA teams)

2005:
Points scored per game: 21.9 ppg (86th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 216.4 ypg (69th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 142.5 ypg (65th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 379.7 ypg (67th out of 119 Division IA teams)

2006:
Points scored per game: 22.9 ppg (68th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 212.8 ypg (49th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 123.1 ypg (77th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 351.6 ypg (65th out of 119 Division IA teams)

[talastan]

The media prodigy Nick Athan is rumoring that Chan Gailey will get the spot....

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4522709&postcount=149

[GoTrav]

I did a detailed analysis in a thread a few weeks back that showed the vivid details of the horror that is a Mike Shula-led offense. This was in response to Kcjohnny's wet dream about Shula becoming the Chiefs next OC.

It isn't pretty...

These are the final offensive statistics for the Bucs' offense during Shula's 4 seasons as their offensive coordinator from 1996-1999.

1996:
Total offense ypg: 269.8 ypg (28th out of 30 teams)
passing ypg: 170.4 ypg (29th out of 30 teams)
rushing ypg: 99.3 ypg (22nd out of 30 teams)
Points scored per game: 13.8 ppg (30th out 30 teams)

1997:
Total offense ypg: 273.5 ypg (29th out of 30 teams)
passing ypg: 152.6 ypg (30th out of 30 teams)
rushing ypg: 120.9 ypg (11th out of 30 teams)
Points scored per game: 18.8 ppg (23rd out of 30 teams)

1998:
Total offense ypg: 297.1 (22nd out of 30 teams)
passing ypg: 162.9 (27th out of 30 teams)
rushing ypg: 134.2 ypg (4th out of 30 teams)
Points scored per game: 19.6 ppg (18th out of 30 teams)

1999:
Total offense ypg: 265.9 ypg (28th out of 31 teams)
passing ypg: 154.9 ypg (30th out of 31 teams)
rushing ypg: 111.0 ypg (15th out of 31 teams)
Points scored per game: 16.9 ypg (27th out of 31 teams)


And his offensive #'s while at Alabama...

2003:
Points scored per game: 25.5 ppg (69th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 191.6 ypg (85th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 159.0 ypg (54th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 366.1 ypg (81st out of 117 Division IA teams)

2004:
Points scored per game: 24.6 ppg (tied-64th out 117 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 141.6 ypg (112th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 185.1 ypg (26th out of 117 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 336.6 ypg (94th out of 117 Division IA teams)

2005:
Points scored per game: 21.9 ppg (86th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 216.4 ypg (69th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 142.5 ypg (65th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 379.7 ypg (67th out of 119 Division IA teams)

2006:
Points scored per game: 22.9 ppg (68th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Passing yards per game: 212.8 ypg (49th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Rushing yards per game: 123.1 ypg (77th out of 119 Division IA teams)
Total yards per game: 351.6 ypg (65th out of 119 Division IA teams)

wow, he sucks

[Zouk]

I'd prefer Price and Shula over Gailey.

[FAX]

Thanks for the stats, Mr. KCChiefsfan88. Very informative. Based on the numbers, it looks like he'd fit right in here.

But, do you consider that an OCs' results should stand alone irrespective of what he might have had to work with in terms of talent on the field? I mean, Solari has taken the fall as playcaller for the Chiefs, for example, but if your line can't block, you can't run.

FAX

[HC_Chief]

no... at least <i>I</i> don't.

[Hammock Parties]

The media prodigy Nick "The Erroneous One" Athan is rumoring that Chan Gailey will get the spot....

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4522709&postcount=149

That's not at all what he's rumoring.

[FloridaMan88]

That's not at all what he's rumoring.

That is too bad... because anything Athan rumors ends up not happening.

[StcChief]

1999 the 11-6 L to STL in a D struggle. NFC - Championship.... at the dome... :rolleyes:

[OnTheWarpath15]

Thanks for the stats, Mr. KCChiefsfan88. Very informative. Based on the numbers, it looks like he'd fit right in here.

But, do you consider that an OCs' results should stand alone irrespective of what he might have had to work with in terms of talent on the field? I mean, Solari has taken the fall as playcaller for the Chiefs, for example, but if your line can't block, you can't run.

FAX

Of course he doesn't, Mr. FAX.

Doing so would hinder his argument.

Blaming Shula for those numbers, with those players (especially at WR) makes about as much sense as blaming Helen Keller for not looking both ways before crossing the street.

[Extra Point]

Shula would be handy to throw under the bus in 2 years. Herm, if Carl plays his "embattled" cards right, could stick around for at least 24 years. Afterward, he can throw in his fluffy bath Arrowhead insignia bath towel while donning his red and gold bathrobe, and declare that he had accomplished a playoff win.

We're only missing a fullback. Tony Richardson deserved more than what he got from the front office.

[FloridaMan88]

Of course he doesn't, Mr. FAX.

Doing so would hinder his argument.

Blaming Shula for those numbers, with those players (especially at WR) makes about as much sense as blaming Helen Keller for not looking both ways before crossing the street.

So what would you base your argument on that Mike Shula SHOULD get consideration as an NFL offensive coordinator again? What in his body of work suggests he is qualified to be an offensive coordinator in the NFL? His offenses in Tampa were horrible and his offenses at Alabama were generally punchless.

If his last name wasn't Shula he would be cleaning toilets somewhere now for a living.

[GoTrav]

From Shula's resume as an OC, this team hardly has the defensive studs to offset that type of production on O. I'll stab myself in the eye if we go towards old Jet or Buc retreads. Guess I'll just take the wait and see approach, and hope for the best.

And isn't Tony Richardson a FA this year?

[TEX]

I understand about his connection with Croyle, and think he did a very good job with Garrard in Jax, but do people really want him as the guy calling plays?

In his last stint as an OC with Tampa, he wasn't that good.

In terms of points scored here was Tampa's ranking:

1996 - 30th
1997 - 23rd
1998 - 18th
1999 - 27th

Yikes.

I agree - YIKES! But it is better than 32... :rolleyes:

[ChiefsCountry]

I want Eric Price, yeah I know he has Herm experience but his dad's offense have been known to chuck the ball downfield and score alot.

[FAX]

Why can't Tony Richardson be our OC?

FAX

[shaneo69]

I'd prefer Price and Shula over Gailey.

Gailey was an awesome offensive coordinator with the Steelers in the mid-90's. He's been a Head Coach ever since then I believe.

[shaneo69]

Why can't Tony Richardson be our OC?

FAX

You mean Trent Green, don't you?

[FAX]

Not really, Mr. shaneo69. But, him too.

Seriously, I'm topped off with dread over this selection. The longer this goes on, the greater the fear I feel that we are going to wind up with the most lamest ass OC of all times.

FAX

[shaneo69]

Not really, Mr. shaneo69. But, him too.

Seriously, I'm topped off with dread over this selection. The longer this goes on, the greater the fear I feel that we are going to wind up with the most lamest ass OC of all times.

FAX

Dick Curl's already been promoted. We just don't know it yet.

[FAX]

Dick Curl's already been promoted. We just don't know it yet.

God. What a nightmare.

Then again, you know what would be funny, though, Mr. shaneo69? Coach Curl gets the job, introduces the Air Curl offense, and we start putting up 35 a game. What a deal that would be. Herm looks like a total genius, Croyle gets MVP, LJ runs for 1700 again, everybody goes to the pro-bowl, and we kick ass all the way to the trophy.

(Man, these lemon drop martinis are pretty good, after all.)

FAX

[GoTrav]

Dick Curl's already been promoted. We just don't know it yet.

couldn't be any worse than someone who's averaged 25th in scoring....

[OnTheWarpath15]

So what would you base your argument on that Mike Shula SHOULD get consideration as an NFL offensive coordinator again? What in his body of work suggests he is qualified to be an offensive coordinator in the NFL? His offenses in Tampa were horrible and his offenses at Alabama were generally punchless.

If his last name wasn't Shula he would be cleaning toilets somewhere now for a living.

Well, you can either continue to whine about STATS, or you can think about the subject with an open mind and realize that having talented players helps as well.

Lets take everyone's favorite super-genius OC, Jesus Saunders.

Where have HIS offenses been ranked the past two years since leaving KC?

18th and 20th.

What happened?

Did Al fall down a flight of stairs one day and lose his ability to coach?

Brian Billick was an offensive genius in Minnesota. What happened in Baltimore? Hell, he was a HC calling th eplays, and it made no difference.

As much as you want to stomp around like a child and try to will it to be, stats don't tell the whole story.

Like I said in my first post....I'm indifferent towards Shula as the OC. But I am going to call bullshit when people like yourself continue to post irrational, biased views that only tell part of the story.

[Chiefnj2]

Well, you can either continue to whine about STATS, or you can think about the subject with an open mind and realize that having talented players helps as well.

Lets take everyone's favorite super-genius OC, Jesus Saunders.

Where have HIS offenses been ranked the past two years since leaving KC?

18th and 20th.

What happened?

Did Al fall down a flight of stairs one day and lose his ability to coach?

Brian Billick was an offensive genius in Minnesota. What happened in Baltimore? Hell, he was a HC calling th eplays, and it made no difference.

As much as you want to stomp around like a child and try to will it to be, stats don't tell the whole story.

Like I said in my first post....I'm indifferent towards Shula as the OC. But I am going to call bullshit when people like yourself continue to post irrational, biased views that only tell part of the story.

The Skins were reluctant to let the only QB on the team that can run the system play until the starter got injured.

Having a history of poor offenses everywhere he went is not an irrational basis for criticizing a cooridinator. It's like saying Rich Kotite wasn't a bad coach because he didn't have the talent that Parcells had.

[OnTheWarpath15]

The Skins were reluctant to let the only QB on the team that can run the system play until the starter got injured.

Having a history of poor offenses everywhere he went is not an irrational basis for criticizing a cooridinator. It's like saying Rich Kotite wasn't a bad coach because he didn't have the talent that Parcells had.


Answer this question, honestly please.

With the offensive talent that was at his disposal in Tampa, would you have expected any significant increase in production with any other coach?

[FloridaMan88]

Like I said in my first post....I'm indifferent towards Shula as the OC. But I am going to call bullshit when people like yourself continue to post irrational, biased views that only tell part of the story.

Your attempt to somehow base your argument on the fact Al Saunders has not been as successful in Washington as he was in KC is an inaccurate comparison because Al Saunders HAS experienced success in the NFL as an offensive coordinator (in KC) and therefore has something on his NFL resume that proves he can coordinate a great offense under the right circumstances.

Mike Shula on the other hand has ZERO evidence on his resume that proves he can be a successful offensive NFL coordinator. All we have to go by is his horrible offenses in Tampa and then if you want to further evaluate him as an offensive coach you can look at his punchless offenses at Alabama.

You claim I'm only telling "part of the story" with regards to Shula... the part I"m telling is the factual part... you are arguing for a hypothetical part that is baseless since Shula has zero successful as an NFL offensive coordinator, unlike Al Saunders.

[FloridaMan88]

Answer this question, honestly please.

With the offensive talent that was at his disposal in Tampa, would you have expected any significant increase in production with any other coach?

Tampa invested a significant # of draft picks, during Shula's time there on offense, trying to fix that side of the ball, yet for the most part none of the young talent drafted developed into a cohesive and productive offense.

Shula would essentially be put in the same situation in KC, an offense that is going to be rebuilt from scratch largely from the draft... why should we believe Shula will have better success building and developing an offense with the Chiefs?

[TN_Chief]

I'd be curious as to what he could accomplish with not only a good running game, but some decent WR's/TE as well.Where exactly is he going to get that good running game and decent WRs/TE?

We have a hurtin' O-line, no QB to speak of and a RB that (IMO) is probably done (or at least will never again be what he once was thanks to that ridiculous 400+ carry season). Maybe some WR talent with Bowe. And an aging Tony Gonzales.

Not really sure we've got the tools to turn Mike Shula into an offensive genius.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Your attempt to somehow base your argument on the fact Al Saunders has not been as successful in Washington as he was in KC is an inaccurate comparison because Al Saunders HAS experienced success in the NFL as an offensive coordinator (in KC) and therefore has something on his NFL resume that proves he can coordinate a great offense under the right circumstances.

Mike Shula on the other hand has ZERO evidence on his resume that proves he can be a successful offensive NFL coordinator. All we have to go by is his horrible offenses in Tampa and then if you want to further evaluate him as an offensive coach you can look at his punchless offenses at Alabama.

You claim I'm only telling "part of the story" with regards to Shula... the part I"m telling is the factual part... you are arguing for a hypothetical part that is baseless since Shula has zero successful as an NFL offensive coordinator, unlike Al Saunders.

Inaccurate comparison my ass.

And why, pray tell, did Al Saunders have that successful experience on his resume?

BECAUSE HE HAD TALENT TO WORK WITH, FOR ****S SAKE!

Fortunately for him, he ran into that success earlier, rather than later. He had NO experience as an OC at that point, he'd been a WR coach or Asst. HC.

Based on what you're saying, had Saunders been a flop in KC, there's no reason he should ever be hired again. He would have had no success to speak of. Nevermind that he had no success to speak of when given the OC job here to begin with.

Had Shula had some talent to work with and failed in Tampa, I'd be right along side you bashing the guy.

But he's never gotten a fair chance, IMO. Robb Thomas as your #2 receiver? C'mon.

All his team have ever been able to do is run the ball, because that's the only position they ever had any talent. Once Dunn arrived, the YPG jumped over 20 yards.

I'll give you 6 reasons why the Bucs were never higher than 27th in Passing yardage:

Dilfer, Thomas, Hawkins, Anthony, Emanuael, Green.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Tampa invested a significant # of draft picks, during Shula's time there on offense, trying to fix that side of the ball, yet for the most part none of the young talent drafted developed into a cohesive and productive offense.

Shula would essentially be put in the same situation in KC, an offense that is going to be rebuilt from scratch largely from the draft... why should we believe Shula will have better success building and developing an offense with the Chiefs?

So now it's Shula's fault that Rich McKay didn't draft worth a shit?

You're honestly going to tell me that they invested a ton of picks to fix the offensive side of the ball? Do your homework.

1999 Anthony McFarland DT Louisiana State
Shaun King QB Tulane
Martin Gramatica K Kansas State
Dexter Jackson DB Florida State
John McLaughlin DE California
Lamarr Glenn RB Florida State
Robert Hunt G Virginia
Autry Denson RB Notre Dame
Darnell McDonald WR Kansas State

1998
Jacquez Green WR Florida
Brian Kelly DB USC
Jamie Duncan LB Vanderbilt
Todd Washington C Virginia Tech
James Cannida DT Nevada
Shevin Smith DB Florida State
Chance McCarty DE Texas Christian

1997
Warrick Dunn RB Florida State
Reidel Anthony WR Florida
Jerry Wunsch T Wisconsin
Frank Middleton G Arizona
Ronde Barber DB Virginia
Alshermond Singleton LB Temple
Patrick Hape TE Alabama
Al Harris DB Texas A&M-Kingsville
Nigea Carter WR Michigan State
Anthony DeGrate DT Stephen F. Austin

1996
Regan Upshaw DE California
Marcus Jones DT North Carolina
Mike Alstott RB Purdue
Donnie Abraham DB East Tennessee State
Jason Odom T Florida
Eric Austin DB Jackson State
Jason Maniecki DT Wisconsin
Nilo Silvan WR Tennessee
Reggie Rusk DB Kentucky



6 offensive players on the first day in FOUR YEARS.

And 3 of the 6 were huge busts. Frank Middleton was the only player taken after the 3rd round that worked out.

Yeah, they really invested a significant number of draft picks to help him out......

[OnTheWarpath15]

Where exactly is he going to get that good running game and decent WRs/TE?

We have a hurtin' O-line, no QB to speak of and a RB that (IMO) is probably done (or at least will never again be what he once was thanks to that ridiculous 400+ carry season). Maybe some WR talent with Bowe. And an aging Tony Gonzales.

Not really sure we've got the tools to turn Mike Shula into an offensive genius.

Jesus Christ, he's not going to be an offensive genius, nor does he have to be.

Do you think we're going into 2008 with the same OL?

Glad you've decided LJ is done? Please write him and tell him he's done, I'd love to hear the response you get.

An "aging" Tony Gonzalez is still 100X better than anything Shula's had to work with at TE. And don't act like TG has a foot in the grave.

Hell, you shouldn't even bother watching next year, since you have it all figured out, well before the combine, before the draft, before OTA's, before the FA signing period, before training camp.

[OnTheWarpath15]

And just to get back to the original question posed by the thread starter.....

"Do people really want Mike Shula as OC?"

I'd like to answer that question with a question:

Do people really want ANY of the rumored candidates to be the OC?

[Chiefs Pantalones]

And just to get back to the original question posed by the thread starter.....

"Do people really want Mike Shula as OC?"

I'd like to answer that question with a question:

Do people really want ANY of the rumored candidates to be the OC?

No.

We are going to win 4-6 games a year with Herm and Carl driving this red short bus.