Whitlock: Give the Clark Hunt Chiefs a chance

[BigRedChief]

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/452532.html

Give the Clark Hunt Chiefs a chance



The Chiefs are starting over, and that means we should, too.As best we can, we need to let go of the past, distance ourselves from the disappointment, turn our attention away from King Carl and evaluate the Clark Hunt-led Chiefs with renewed optimism.
What happened on Thursday, when Hunt met individually with a representative of every local media outlet with a passion for the Chiefs, was the most significant moment in Chiefs history since Lamar Hunt hired Carl Peterson and Marty Schottenheimer.

It appears to me that Clark Hunt, Lamar’s successor, took the ’07 calendar year to analyze and assess this city’s favorite franchise. He considered his thoughts, formulated a plan and then announced his intentions to the public through the media.
He did exactly what an SMU valedictorian is supposed to do when given a high-profile asset to manage.

Now, some of us may be disappointed that Peterson wasn’t immediately eliminated from the organization. And some of you might be dismayed that Herm Edwards wasn’t given his walking papers.

Kansas City football fans have a right to desire blood — 4-12 seasons, 14 years without a playoff victory, Peterson’s unapologetic arrogance, an unimaginative offense and horrendous drafting will make pigskin fans angry.
But you don’t necessarily need a public hanging for proof of decisive change.

What Hunt said was plenty decisive. He — not King Carl — laid out expectations and direction for the 2008 season and beyond. Hunt demanded an improved offense, the development of a young, franchise quarterback, tangible improvement in performance and record throughout the season, and Hunt created the clear perception his loyalty rested with Edwards, not Peterson.

In the previous 19 years, Peterson set the agenda while Lamar Hunt watched, supported and cheered like a typical season-ticket holder.
There has been a clear shift in power. To ignore that would be unreasonable, and so would be suggesting that Clark Hunt’s words have no credibility.

There is not one reason to disbelieve Clark Hunt. His father never lied to us. Lamar played it straight. This was Peterson’s team to run, and Lamar was willing to live with the consequences of Peterson’s decision-making.

Well, now Clark Hunt has stated he’s going to take a bigger role in the oversight of the franchise. He’ll have an office in the new Arrowhead Stadium. He hinted that he and his wife, a Lee’s Summit native, have considered setting up permanent residence in Kansas City. He called the Chiefs his No. 1 priority.

I say let’s give the man a fair hearing. Throw away the old baggage. I’m going to back down on my Peterson attack and come up with a new nickname. Maybe “The Artist Formerly Known as King Carl” or “The General Manager Formerly Known as King Carl.”

Seriously, we should do what Hunt did last year. Let’s sit back and analyze the entire 2008 year and offer hardcore opinions next January.
This is a new era. I don’t think this is a desperate ploy by Clark Hunt to appease disgruntled season-ticket holders. Hunt legitimately believes in Herm Edwards. Peterson believes in Edwards, too.

Hunt and Peterson think Herm can fix the Chiefs. We have nothing to lose by offering our support. The decision has been made.

If we don’t see real improvement next season, if Edwards is wrong about Brodie Croyle and the Chiefs pass on Boston College’s Matt Ryan and he shows flashes of being a franchise QB, then we can gather a posse, storm Arrowhead Stadium and demand that Peterson, Edwards, Bill Kuharich, Lynn Stiles, Denny Thum, Gunther Cunningham and all the rest be turned over to an angry mob.

That would be an enjoyable, satisfying day. I don’t anticipate it happening. I have confidence that Clark and Herm know what they’re doing. That perspective will be represented in this column until further notice (or the first time Herm and Dick Curl mismanage timeouts and the clock).

[jlscorpio]

Everyone in this article but Clark will be unemployed in '09

[cdcox]

This article captures my sentiments perfectly, whether that was jwhit's intention or not. I think Herm could turn things around if a lot of things went his way. Larry comes back strong. Croyle develops into a top 10 QB in the new offense. Turk, Tank, Page and Pollard solidify the center of our defense. We draft well for a couple of years. In a perfect storm of good forture, I could imagine steady improvement from the Chiefs, beginning in 2008. I could probably conjur up some Real Hope. But, even in the best case scenario, I think Herm's conservatism and game day coaching will prevent us from winning a SB.

[FAX]

Good job, Mr. jwhit. As carefully worded as Clark's public comments.

Complements to the Chef.

FAX

[Chiefs_5627]

Even though he'll probably throw out a "Clark dont care" article tomorrow, this was a nice read.

[FAX]

This article captures my sentiments perfectly, whether that was jwhit's intention or not. I think Herm could turn things around if a lot of things went his way. Larry comes back strong. Croyle develops into a top 10 QB in the new offense. Turk, Tank, Page and Pollard solidify the center of our defense. We draft well for a couple of years. In a perfect storm of good forture, I could imagine steady improvement from the Chiefs, beginning in 2008. I could probably conjur up some Real Hope. But, even in the best case scenario, I think Herm's conservatism and game day coaching will prevent us from winning a SB.

Excellent post, Mr. cdcox. If you ever choke on some ham, let me know. I stand ready to help.

FAX

[milkman]

What Hunt said was plenty decisive. He — not King Carl — laid out expectations and direction for the 2008 season and beyond. Hunt demanded an improved offense, the development of a young, franchise quarterback, tangible improvement in performance and record throughout the season, and Hunt created the clear perception his loyalty rested with Edwards, not Peterson

Why?

Hunt legitimately believes in Herm Edwards. Peterson believes in Edwards, too.

Hunt and Peterson think Herm can fix the Chiefs. We have nothing to lose by offering our support. The decision has been made.

Again, why?

What has Herman ****ing Edwards done to earn that loyalty and confidence.

He's a medocre coach whose teams have ranged from mediocre to suckass.

What has this idiot ever done to make anyone believe he actually has a freakin' clue?

[siberian khatru]

Good column.

Let’s sit back and analyze the entire 2008 year and offer hardcore opinions next January.

This was my approach anyway. I have zero expectations for 08 -- even less than I did for 07. They better back up their words with actions. I don't want to hear anymore "the games were too close to play the young guys" BS.

[Messier]

Why?



Again, why?

What has Herman ****ing Edwards done to earn that loyalty and confidence.

He's a medocre coach whose teams have ranged from mediocre to suckass.

What has this idiot ever done to make anyone believe he actually has a freakin' clue?


Well people who know the man, like none here, feel differently. I'll give him next year to turn things around, after that it's a different matter.

[milkman]

Well people who know the man, like none here, feel differently. I'll give him next year to turn things around, after that it's a different matter.

People who know Dick and Marty, like none here, felt differently also.

In the end, they never did jack, and I was right from the start.

Unless, and until, Herman ****ing Edwards does something to prove me wrong, he's just a scam artist that has managed to sell his bullshit to the people who know him.

I won't be holding my breath for him to reward their faith.

[Messier]

People who know Dick and Marty, like none here, felt differently also.

In the end, they never did jack, and I was right from the start.

Unless, and until, Herman ****ing Edwards does something to prove me wrong, he's just a scam artist that has managed to sell his bullshit to the people who know him.

I won't be holding my breath for him to reward their faith.


Well, hurry and apply for a GM job. With your track record they'd be crazy not to hire you.

[milkman]

Well, hurry and apply for a GM job. With your track record they'd be crazy not to hire you.

Why waste my time?

They've already proven themselves incompetent, so clearly they would make the mistake of letting me walk away.

[Hydrae]

How much BBQ did Clark feed this man? That is the only reason I know why JWhit would be this positive, he had a full belly.

[StcChief]

2008 is a new transition, if they can't build at least a 6-10/7-9 team.... an no real improvement......

Real major shakeups need to occur.

Carl,Herm,Gun,Chan better not blow draft picks or FAs.

[nychief]

I think it is a pretty levelheaded column. I understand the frustrations, but Clark Hunt getting emotionally involved is a huge plus for us as fans... when it is not just a business, but rather an issue of pride it is always a good thing. He (Clark) seems like a pragmatist.

[DaKCMan AP]

That's pretty much how I felt while reading that, 2008 is just going to be another wasted season. We'll probably go 7-9, it will be spun as "progress" and once again no action will be taken.

What would you consider actual (not "spun") progress for 2008? What record? What results?

[old_geezer]

Serious questions;

The Chiefs suck. Sorry, 4-12 and losing the last half of your season qualifies as suck. So if I read this right Clark has decided that the perfect people to right this sinking ship are the the same idiots that got it into that situation in the first place? Personally I don't expect the Chiefs to be much improved next year. Even if they go out and get 2-3 quality players in the draft it's going to take some time for them to develope into legitimate studs.

So what I'm trying to say - Does anyone seriously think Clark is going to fire Peterson and or Edwards next season if he didn't after this year? IMO he just blew some smoke in our faces to buy them all some more time. If we really commit to youth next year our record is not going to be that much if any better. So if you were going to fire them if they don't show improvement next season, then you'd logically fire them now and put in place the people you choose to rebuild with. Clark has obviously (to me) chosen Peterson and Edwards to be that team.

[KcMizzou]

How much BBQ did Clark feed this man? That is the only reason I know why JWhit would be this positive, he had a full belly.Right after finishing it, he shuffled off for a long nap.

(That actually sounds pretty good. Gotta love Sundays.)

[milkman]

Serious questions;

The Chiefs suck. Sorry, 4-12 and losing the last half of your season qualifies as suck. So if I read this right Clark has decided that the perfect people to right this sinking ship are the the same idiots that got it into that situation in the first place? Personally I don't expect the Chiefs to be much improved next year. Even if they go out and get 2-3 quality players in the draft it's going to take some time for them to develope into legitimate studs.

So what I'm trying to say - Does anyone seriously think Clark is going to fire Peterson and or Edwards next season if he didn't after this year? IMO he just blew some smoke in our faces to buy them all some more time. If we really commit to youth next year our record is not going to be that much if any better. So if you were going to fire them if they don't show improvement next season, then you'd logically fire them now and put in place the people you choose to rebuild with. Clark has obviously (to me) chosen Peterson and Edwards to be that team.

To be fair, as much I dislike Herman ****ing Edwards, and have no confidence in his ablity to fix this team, I don't assign too much of the blame for the overall lack of talent to him.

That lack of talent lies squarely on the shoulders of Carl and Dick.

[DaKCMan AP]

Serious questions;

The Chiefs suck. Sorry, 4-12 and losing the last half of your season qualifies as suck. So if I read this right Clark has decided that the perfect people to right this sinking ship are the the same idiots that got it into that situation in the first place?

By the time Herm got here this team was already on a downward slope. Peterson was here the entire time and JWhit suggests that power is being taken away from him and that Clark believes Herm, not CP, is the person to right this sinking ship.

[old_geezer]

To be fair, as much I dislike Herman ****ing Edwards, and have no confidence in his ablity to fix this team, I don't assign too much of the blame for the overall lack of talent to him.

That lack of talent lies squarely on the shoulders of Carl and Dick.


I didn't make myself clear enough. I don't blame the downfall of the Chiefs on Herm but I do see him doing everything he can to continue the slide. I have seen enough of Edwards in two years that I can no longer tolerate his God-awful offensive game plans. It doesn't matter who we have on offense if that doesn't change and I have my doubts as long as Herm is around.

Sorry, I still long for a complete housecleaning, and not after one more year of this crap.

Oh, and the point I was trying to make but never did is; If there's not a housecleaning after 2007, I don't believe there will be one after 2008 no matter what the record.

[Messier]

To be fair, as much I dislike Herman ****ing Edwards, and have no confidence in his ablity to fix this team, I don't assign too much of the blame for the overall lack of talent to him.

That lack of talent lies squarely on the shoulders of Carl and Dick.


We agree, for the most part. We just separate on our feelings on the competence of Herm Edwards.

[milkman]

We agree, for the most part. We just separate on our feelings on the competence of Herm Edwards.

That leads me back to my original question.

What has Herman ****ing Edwards ever done to earn that confidence?

I don't see anything to remotely suggest he's anything more than a mediocre coach.

[TEX]

This is a new era. I don’t think this is a desperate ploy by Clark Hunt to appease disgruntled season-ticket holders. Hunt legitimately believes in Herm Edwards. Peterson believes in Edwards, too.

BIG miatake.

[FringeNC]

What would you consider actual (not "spun") progress for 2008? What record? What results?

For starters, how about not leading the league in 3-and-outs?

Also, how about throwing downfield on 1st and 2nd down BEFORE the outcome of the game is decided?

Ya know, try to win games. Is that too much to ask for?

[el borracho]

52-60

[Buehler445]

My take. If the Great Evil (Peterson) was calling the shots to "Win Now" with Huard, Solari, and any other blockheads that he made Herm keep, use, etc., then Herm deserves a shot to run it his way and see what happens.

My personal opinion on the matter is that Herm lacks the knowledge and skills to build a dominant team. Moreover, his conservative approach will cost him in the end. I understand that a team has to be able to win a close game. But that doens't mean that a team should strive for close games.

Unfortunately, The Chiefs organization is in a bad spot. If the Great Evil has limited Herm's ability to do things his way, it makes it really tough to give an effective evaluation. We can have our opinions, but an effective analysis of Herm's progress with the Kansas City Chiefs is hard to come by if Peterson has been meddling.

[Messier]

That leads me back to my original question.

What has Herman ****ing Edwards ever done to earn that confidence?

I don't see anything to remotely suggest he's anything more than a mediocre coach.


He's gone the playoffs more than not. He's won in the playoffs. He's never had a really talented team, but he drafts well and I could see him building a team. He has the players ear, and they believe in him. He's not a guru, or a offensive or defensive genius, but he doesn't need to be, he needs to be a leader and have all the players and coaches aimed in the same direction. I believe he can do that.

[el borracho]

He's never had a really talented team, but he drafts well ...
Why hasn't he had a talented team if he drafts so well?

[milkman]

He's gone the playoffs more than not. He's won in the playoffs. He's never had a really talented team, but he drafts well and I could see him building a team. He has the players ear, and they believe in him. He's not a guru, or a offensive or defensive genius, but he doesn't need to be, he needs to be a leader and have all the players and coaches aimed in the same direction. I believe he can do that.

Marty has gone to the playoffs more often than not, and of the two, I'd rather have Marty.

That, as many here can attest to, is saying a hell of a lot.

[milkman]

Why hasn't he had a talented team if he drafts so well?

I don't think he's thought this one through.

[Messier]

Why hasn't he had a talented team if he drafts so well?


He was in New York for five years. His first draft didn't start producing, as with most drafts for a few years, for the most part he was coaching and playing other coaches picks. He does draft well. His players play and play well. He hasn't had a blockbuster draft, that's more a matter of luck, but he drafts consistantly well.

[Messier]

Marty has gone to the playoffs more often than not, and of the two, I'd rather have Marty.

That, as many here can attest to, is saying a hell of a lot.


Marty goes and wins?

[blueballs]

When will the naming rights to Arrowhead
be announced

[Deberg_1990]

Herm is just setting things up for the next Chiefs head coach.

Kind of like how Mackovich and Ganz set things up for Marty with all their high draft pick talent.

[milkman]

Marty goes and wins?

Neither of them is ever going to the SB, so what difference does it make?

Herman Edwards is 2-4 in the playoffs.

Given time, there's a chance he will overtake Marty as the all time playoff choker.

[Otter]

Thoughts...

1. I like Whitlock

2. Clark is Lamar's son, I can't imagine him not wanting to bring the trophy named after his father back home

3. Carl...door..ass...you know the drill

Give 'em hell fellas, I'll be watching

[FringeNC]

Why hasn't he had a talented team if he drafts so well?

Yeah, it's often asserted that Herm drafts well. I'm just not sure that there is any evidence of that.

He left his Jets' team rather devoid of talent -- now is that his fault, or Carl's protege's fault? I don't know.

[Phobia]

I guess he just wrote himself out of a job.... unless he didn't really mean what he says in this article.

[Messier]

Neither of them is ever going to the SB, so what difference does it make?

Herman Edwards is 2-4 in the playoffs.

Given time, there's a chance he will overtake Marty as the all time playoff choker.


Herm is 2-4 with teams that were underdogs in the playoffs Marty had teams that should have won on a consistent basis. There's no way of knowing, but I think we would have gone to a Super Bowl with Herm in the 90's with the same teams.

The fact is we just have to wait to see what happens in the next few seasons. Believe me, I could change my tune, but right now I believe in Herm, I explained why and that's all I can do.

[Hammock Parties]

I guess he just wrote himself out of a job.... unless he didn't really mean what he says in this article.

Whitlock's range extends well beyond "lol King Carl."

[banyon]

He was in New York for five years. His first draft didn't start producing, as with most drafts for a few years, for the most part he was coaching and playing other coaches picks. He does draft well. His players play and play well. He hasn't had a blockbuster draft, that's more a matter of luck, but he drafts consistantly well.

Yeah, his last few drafts have left the cupboard stocked for Mangini. :huh:

[kstater]

While I agree on the premise of the article, based on JWhit's last few articles, you have to wonder if Clark or The Star took him behind the proverbial woodshed.

[milkman]

Herm is 2-4 with teams that were underdogs in the playoffs Marty had teams that should have won on a consistent basis. There's no way of knowing, but I think we would have gone to a Super Bowl with Herm in the 90's with the same teams.

The fact is we just have to wait to see what happens in the next few seasons. Believe me, I could change my tune, but right now I believe in Herm, I explained why and that's all I can do.

Yeah, you're right.

Choker is a misrepresentation for Herman ****ing Edwards.

He'll be lucky to ever field a team that goes into a playoff game as favorites.

[Phobia]

Whitlock's range extends well beyond "lol King Carl."

I like his writing and I like him. You know that. But if he were really passionate about this article I guess we can anticipate a year free of articles trashing the team leadership.... I think we all know that's not gonna happen.

[Hammock Parties]

While I agree on the premise of the article, based on JWhit's last few articles, you have to wonder if Clark or The Star took him behind the proverbial woodshed.

Highly doubt it.

[el borracho]

He was in New York for five years. His first draft didn't start producing, as with most drafts for a few years, for the most part he was coaching and playing other coaches picks. He does draft well. His players play and play well. He hasn't had a blockbuster draft, that's more a matter of luck, but he drafts consistantly well.
The Jets became progressively worse under Herm and are one of the worst teams in the league right now. If Herm is so great they should have been stocked with talent, after all, they had five years of Herm's superior drafting.

Herm's Jets
2001 10-6
2002 9-7
2003 6-10
2004 10-6
2005 4-12

Believe what you want but I see no reason to believe in Herm.

52-60, and the gap shall widen.

[Hammock Parties]

The Jets became progressively worse under Herm and are one of the worst teams in the league right now. If Herm is so great they should have been stocked with talent, after all, they had five years of Herm's superior drafting.

Herm's Jets
2001 10-6
2002 9-7
2003 6-10
2004 10-6
2005 4-12

Believe what you want but I see no reason to believe in Herm.

52-60, and the gap shall widen.

Yep.

[Messier]

Yeah, you're right.

Choker is a misrepresentation for Herman ****ing Edwards.

He'll be lucky to ever field a team that goes into a playoff game as favorites.


What you see as a fault, I see as a strength. His ability to coach up players, and have them believe and play better for him. He's only been a coach for seven years, he's been more successful than not. I'm not going to say, he's never won a super bowl, therefore he can't.

[Hammock Parties]

You really have to admire Herm Edwards though. He can convince almost anyone he's the man to get the job done. He has Clark, Carl, most of the players in that locker room and several media members convinced. He's absolutely amazing in that regard. He can sell himself to almost anyone.

I'm not saying he isn't sincere, because he totally is, but I can't help but feel like we're just wasting our time with Herm. This will all end up in tears and another "We didn't win the Super Bowl, but did we fail? No way!" press conference.

[Messier]

You really have to admire Herm Edwards though. He can convince almost anyone he's the man to get the job done. He has Clark, Carl, most of the players in that locker room and several media members convinced. He's absolutely amazing in that regard. He can sell himself to almost anyone.

I'm not saying he isn't sincere, because he totally is, but I can't help but feel like we're just wasting our time with Herm. This will all end up in tears and another "We didn't win the Super Bowl, but did we fail? No way!" press conference.


You might be right. And I'll take back all my faith in Herm if that's the case. I just believe right now Herm can do it. I could be an idiot for thinking that, but it won't be the first time, or the last, sadly.

[milkman]

What you see as a fault, I see as a strength. His ability to coach up players, and have them believe and play better for him. He's only been a coach for seven years, he's been more successful than not. I'm not going to say, he's never won a super bowl, therefore he can't.

Who exactly is playing better for him?

Page?
Pollard?
Tank?
Turk?
Parker?
Webb?
Wilson?

I would even go so far as to say that this coaching staff has stunted DJ's growth.

I won't say he's never won a SB, therefore he can't.

He's a mediocre coach, therefore it's about as likely as me winning the lotto.

[Zouk]

The Jets became progressively worse under Herm and are one of the worst teams in the league right now. If Herm is so great they should have been stocked with talent, after all, they had five years of Herm's superior drafting.

Herm's Jets
2001 10-6
2002 9-7
2003 6-10
2004 10-6
2005 4-12




Nope.

This is where numbers are deceiving - records are determined by strength of schedule and injuries as much as your own team. What matters is how good you are in December and January. The 2002 team beat the Colts 41-0 in the playoffs. It was clearly better than the 2001 team.

The 2004 team was a kick away from the AFC Championship game. It won a road playoff game. Without question the best Jets team Herm had - and on par with, for example, the 2007 Jags that everyone is falling over themselves to praise. The program peaked in the 4th year when Herm had his own players.

And the record was held down by having the dynasty Pats in their division, and Pennington getting hurt every year.

In the 5th year, they were down to the 4th QB. The first 2 QBs were hurt very early in the season. Most teams now don't even carry a 3rd QB. No team has ever won with their 3rd QB and no team ever will.

[Messier]

Who exactly is playing better for him?

Page?
Pollard?
Tank?
Turk?
Parker?
Webb?
Wilson?

I would even go so far as to say that this coaching staff has stunted DJ's growth.

I won't say he's never won a SB, therefore he can't.

He's a mediocre coach, therefore it's about as likely as me winning the lotto.

I could take 10 or more players on every team that aren't growing and blame the coach. Every team.

I think Page and Pollard are and will be good players. We can't judge Tank and Turk yet. Webb, Wilson and Parker, are nothing special so what? Allen just had his best season. Hali is good and I think will get better. Boone was a good pick up. I credit Herm for getting the D headed in more in the right direction.

You won't give him credit for things I will, so this won't go anywhere. You don't like him and I do. That's kind of where we're at, let's see in a year. I could be right with you.

[blueballs]

Carl bought into the "one more year" for Vermeil's offense -a couple of years too many
so he brought in Herm who could handle the New York media -to handle the rebuild
Herm is here to take the heat -until the team is a team again

[nychief]

Everybody, what you are failing to see is that Milkman is the the common man here.

[milkman]

Everybody, what you are failing to see is that Milkman is the the common man here.

Thanks for pointing out that silly appellation, cause, you know, that's really pertinent to the discussion.

[BigRock]

Why hasn't he had a talented team if he drafts so well?
Do you guys honestly believe this stuff, or do you just keep saying it because hardly anyone ever bothers correcting it?

Herm has never had a talented team? Really? Never? So the 2004 Jets, who had a top 10 defense, a top 5 scoring defense, the NFL's rushing leader, and the 3rd best running game in the league, was not a talented team in your view? They were just "mediocre", as you said earlier?

If that's the case, then to what do you credit the fact that this mediocre, untalented team came within 2 choked field goals of winning back to back road games in the playoffs and advancing to the AFC championship? Good coaching, perhaps?

Either Herm did a great job coaching up an untalented team, or he actually put together a pretty talented group there. One of those options has to be true, yet you're claming that both have never happened.

So which one was it? In which way are you completely wrong?

The Jets became progressively worse under Herm
Except, you know, his best team came 4 years into his 5 years there.

and are one of the worst teams in the league right now. If Herm is so great they should have been stocked with talent, after all, they had five years of Herm's superior drafting.
The aforementioned 2004 Jets team was put together entirely on Herm's watch. The 2006 Jets that rebounded from their injury-ruined 2005 season to win 10 games and make the playoffs was still 2/3rds Herm's players.

But we learned during the final week of the season that hardly any of Herm's players are left in NY. The new Jets' staff is changing the offense, changing the defense, and bringing in their own guys. And... they're completely sucking in the process.

They went from 10 wins a year ago with a roster still mostly made up of Herm's players to 4 wins this year after shipping most of Herm's guys out. If you wanted to completely simplify things and selectively frame items to fit your point, as people are so fond of doing when they can blame Herm for something, you could say:

Lots of Herm's players = playoffs.
Hardly any of Herm's players = nosedive.

Now what possible sense does it make to blame Herm for that?

[milkman]

Do you guys honestly believe this stuff, or do you just keep saying it because hardly anyone ever bothers correcting it?

Herm has never had a talented team? Really? Never? So the 2004 Jets, who had a top 10 defense, a top 5 scoring defense, the NFL's rushing leader, and the 3rd best running game in the league, was not a talented team in your view? They were just "mediocre", as you said earlier?

If that's the case, then to what do you credit the fact that this mediocre, untalented team came within 2 choked field goals of winning back to back road games in the playoffs and advancing to the AFC championship? Good coaching, perhaps?

Either Herm did a great job coaching up an untalented team, or he actually put together a pretty talented group there. One of those options has to be true, yet you're claming that both have never happened.

So which one was it? In which way are you completely wrong?


Except, you know, his best team came 4 years into his 5 years there.


The aforementioned 2004 Jets team was put together entirely on Herm's watch. The 2006 Jets that rebounded from their injury-ruined 2005 season to win 10 games and make the playoffs was still 2/3rds Herm's players.

But we learned during the final week of the season that hardly any of Herm's players are left in NY. The new Jets' staff is changing the offense, changing the defense, and bringing in their own guys. And... they're completely sucking in the process.

They went from 10 wins a year ago with a roster still mostly made up of Herm's players to 4 wins this year after shipping most of Herm's guys out. If you wanted to completely simplify things and selectively frame items to fit your point, as people are so fond of doing when they can blame Herm for something, you could say:

Lots of Herm's players = playoffs.
Hardly any of Herm's players = nosedive.

Now what possible sense does it make to blame Herm for that?

His best team, in '04 was 10-6, and at the absolute apex of the team's mediocrity.

[Messier]

His best team, in '04 was 10-6, and at the absolute apex of the team's mediocrity.


Oh I see another place where we aren't agreeing. You think 10 wins is mediocre. See, I don't. I think it's good. 8 wins now that's mediocre, 7 wins, you bet, but see I think if you win 10 you've had a good season.

[FloridaMan88]

In the previous 19 years, Peterson set the agenda while Lamar Hunt watched, supported and cheered like a typical season-ticket holder.
There has been a clear shift in power. To ignore that would be unreasonable, and so would be suggesting that Clark Hunt’s words have no credibility.

Dictator Carl was still a major part of the end of year press conference that laid out the plans for 2008. Clark's public comments didn't come until nearly 3 weeks after this press conference and in many ways echoed what the Dictator said. It was also Dictator Carl and NOT Clark who came out and initially said that the Dictator and Herm would return in 2008.

[BigRock]

Oh I see another place where we aren't agreeing. You think 10 wins is mediocre. See, I don't. I think it's good. 8 wins now that's mediocre, 7 wins, you bet, but see I think if you win 10 you've had a good season.
To say nothing of the fact that they got 10 wins while playing in the division they played in, where even the 3rd place team still had a winning record. And, of course, the team on top being the 14-2 back-to-back Super Bowl champions.

It's amazing how something becomes "mediocre" when people need to fit it to their argument.

[Dr. Van Halen]

Dictator Carl was still a major part of the end of year press conference that laid out the plans for 2008. Clark's public comments didn't come until nearly 3 weeks after this press conference and in many ways echoed what the Dictator said. It was also Dictator Carl and NOT Clark who came out and initially said that the Dictator and Herm would return in 2008.

Dictator Carl? Is that somehow supposed to be more biting than King Carl? Is Peterson going to be reading this, see that you've called him "Dictator Carl," then cry out, "Yipes, I have truly been taken down a peg! Dictator Carl? It's so catchy! It just rolls off the tongue! I'm done for in this town!"

[el borracho]

... he's been more successful than not.
52-60

[Messier]

52-60


Goes to playoffs=successful. He's gone more than not.

[el borracho]

Nope.

This is where numbers are deceiving - records are determined by strength of schedule and injuries as much as your own team.
Oh, I see- Herm would have a winning record if the NFL would stop making his schedule so difficult and if it weren't for bad luck.

In the last 7 years the Patriots are 86-26 and the Colts are 79-33. I guess they just get the easy schedules and are really lucky.

[milkman]

To say nothing of the fact that they got 10 wins while playing in the division they played in, where even the 3rd place team still had a winning record. And, of course, the team on top being the 14-2 back-to-back Super Bowl champions.

It's amazing how something becomes "mediocre" when people need to fit it to their argument.

Mediocrity isn't determined by the regular season.

Mediocrity is determined by post season performance.

I've always been consistent with this.

[el borracho]

Do you guys honestly believe this stuff, or do you just keep saying it because hardly anyone ever bothers correcting it?

Herm has never had a talented team? Really? Never? So the 2004 Jets, who had a top 10 defense, a top 5 scoring defense, the NFL's rushing leader, and the 3rd best running game in the league, was not a talented team in your view? They were just "mediocre", as you said earlier?

If that's the case, then to what do you credit the fact that this mediocre, untalented team came within 2 choked field goals of winning back to back road games in the playoffs and advancing to the AFC championship? Good coaching, perhaps?

Either Herm did a great job coaching up an untalented team, or he actually put together a pretty talented group there. One of those options has to be true, yet you're claming that both have never happened.

So which one was it? In which way are you completely wrong?
Did you miss messier's post where he said, "He's never had a really talented team, but he drafts well ..." My post, and I'm sorry if you didn't understand it, was illustrating the paradoxical nature of messier's post.

[milkman]

Goes to playoffs=successful. He's gone more than not.

4 times in 7 seasons.

That's hugely successful.

[el borracho]

Except, you know, his best team came 4 years into his 5 years there.


The aforementioned 2004 Jets team was put together entirely on Herm's watch. The 2006 Jets that rebounded from their injury-ruined 2005 season to win 10 games and make the playoffs was still 2/3rds Herm's players.

But we learned during the final week of the season that hardly any of Herm's players are left in NY. The new Jets' staff is changing the offense, changing the defense, and bringing in their own guys. And... they're completely sucking in the process.

They went from 10 wins a year ago with a roster still mostly made up of Herm's players to 4 wins this year after shipping most of Herm's guys out. If you wanted to completely simplify things and selectively frame items to fit your point, as people are so fond of doing when they can blame Herm for something, you could say:

Lots of Herm's players = playoffs.
Hardly any of Herm's players = nosedive.

Now what possible sense does it make to blame Herm for that?
Let me ask you this: If Herm was doing such a great job for the Jets and the team was getting better then why did the Jets let Herm go for a paltry 4th round draft pick?

[Hammock Parties]

Let me ask you this: If Herm was doing such a great job for the Jets and the team was getting better then why did the Jets let Herm go for a paltry 4th round draft pick?

Herm wanted more money and the Jets wouldn't pay it. It's pretty simple. They didn't think he was worth it. Tells you all you need to know.

[Messier]

4 times in 7 seasons.

That's hugely successful.


It's successful. Yes it is.

[milkman]

It's successful. Yes it is.

Hypothetical here.

Let's, for the sake of argument, say that Herman ****ing Edwards is here for 2 more years, and goes 10-6 in both years, but the Chiefs fail to make the post season in either, giving him 4 appearences in 9 years, is he then not successful?

[Messier]

Hypothetical here.

Let's, for the sake of argument, say that Herman ****ing Edwards is here for 2 more years, and goes 10-6 in both years, but the Chiefs fail to make the post season in either, giving him 4 appearences in 9 years, is he then not successful?


Seeing as how rare it is to go 10-6 and not make the playoffs I would first say I bet we'd make it if we went 10-6 both years.

If we go 10-6 the next two years that means we go 10-6 next year, which would be a great improvement, and I would be very happy. I'd say that is successful. I would hope to do better the next year, but I'd be happy if we went 10-6 the next two years and consider it successful.

[milkman]

Seeing as how rare it is to go 10-6 and not make the playoffs I would first say I bet we'd make it if we went 10-6 both years.

If we go 10-6 the next two years that means we go 10-6 next year, which would be a great improvement, and I would be very happy. I'd say that is successful. I would hope to do better the next year, but I'd be happy if we went 10-6 the next two years and consider it successful.

So you're definition of success changes.

[Messier]

So you're definition of success changes.


What do you mean?

[milkman]

What do you mean?

Goes to playoffs=successful. He's gone more than not.

[Mr. Laz]

wait until next year....

[Messier]

Whatever.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Hypothetical here.

Let's, for the sake of argument, say that Herman ****ing Edwards is here for 2 more years, and goes 10-6 in both years, but the Chiefs fail to make the post season in either, giving him 4 appearences in 9 years, is he then not successful?

not successful with the CHiefs anyway. I don't give a flying rats rear end what he did elsewhere. What have you done for KC. Success is getting to the playoffs. Greater success would be to win just one for once.

[BigRock]

Did you miss messier's post where he said, "He's never had a really talented team, but he drafts well ..." My post, and I'm sorry if you didn't understand it, was illustrating the paradoxical nature of messier's post.
I know what he said. But you're arguing both points, are you not? That he's never had a talented team and he doesn't draft well. And that he's a bad coach.

Again, please explain the descripancy between your claims and the facts outlined in my previous post. And I realize these are not just your claims, so I'm not directing the question only at you.

Let me ask you this: If Herm was doing such a great job for the Jets and the team was getting better then why did the Jets let Herm go for a paltry 4th round draft pick?
You're framing that question like it's assumed that the Jets are a reasoned, well-run franchise.

In the 1990's, they made the playoffs twice: 1991 and 1998. They were also a total joke at the end of the decade with Parcells quitting, Belicheck taking the job and then immediately bailing out (writing "I quit" on a napkin or something if memory serves) and then hiring Al Groh, who quit after one year. They were also changing owners around the same time.

Herm took over a completely unstable situation in 2001 and made the playoffs in 3 of his 5 years there. The team was completely bereft of playoff appearances before Herm and may be that way again after Herm by the looks of things.

Does it make sense that the Jets didn't value a head coach who had more playoff appearances (and wins) in his first 4 years than the team had in the previous 15 seasons before he got there? No, not really. So who knows why they let him go for so little? Maybe they're ungrateful. Maybe they're just dumb. Having seen year two of the Mangenius, are you looking at the Jets going "this is a team that knows what they're doing"?

I don't know why some people are so opposed to giving him a chance at cleaning up our mess. He went to NY in '01 and by '04 had completely built a team of his own, not from someone else's players, that was pretty damn good. But it's like the people who don't want to give him a chance here don't acknowledge that fact or won't give him credit for it, and I don't get it.

But that question is changing the subject.

[Zouk]

In the last 7 years the Patriots are 86-26 and the Colts are 79-33. I guess they just get the easy schedules and are really lucky.

So we're playing let's pretend Chad Pennington = Peyton Manning and Tom Brady?

What was Dungy's accomplishments in Tampa without Manning? About the same as Herm in terms of playoff and Super Bowl appearances, right? What was Belichick's record in Cleveland without Brady? Much much worse.

[el borracho]

I know what he said. But you're arguing both points, are you not? That he's never had a talented team and he doesn't draft well. And that he's a bad coach.

Again, please explain the descripancy between your claims and the facts outlined in my previous post. And I realize these are not just your claims, so I'm not directing the question only at you.
IMO, Herm is average in the draft and a below average head coach. Since I am not an expert on the NY Jets the only explanation I can offer is that statistics can be interpreted differently. If you want to hang your hopes on a couple of playoff appearances that is your prerogative. I think the win/ loss record is a better indicator of future success. I also think the following facts need to be considered: 1. Herm's Jets got progressively worse (I guess you and Zouk would say they were better, they just lost more but what would that say about Herm as a head coach?!) 2. I see little evidence that Herm's drafts were anything but average- certainly noone would say he left the Jets stocked for the future 3. the Jets thought so little of Herm they let him go for a 4th (there was actually talk of firing him) 4. Herm has not been successful in his two years here (I guess one could argue that backing into that embarrassing playoff game was moderately successful but I don't really credit him much for that)

[el borracho]

So we're playing let's pretend Chad Pennington = Peyton Manning and Tom Brady?

No, I'm just dispelling the fallacy that winning is just up to schedule and luck. Obviously, Pennington is nowhere near the caliber of player that Manning and Brady are.

What was Dungy's accomplishments in Tampa without Manning? About the same as Herm in terms of playoff and Super Bowl appearances, right? What was Belichick's record in Cleveland without Brady? Much much worse.

I don't really know and I don't really care. My point is that some coaches will win regardless and some won't. Schottenheimer, for example, is a winner (at least in the regular season). Wherever he has gone he has won, despite never having a Manning or a Brady. Parcells is a winner- won everywhere he went (4 different teams). Even Dan Reeves and Mike Shanahan are winners, IMO, even without hall of fame QBs. Herman Edwards has not done anything to make me think he is one of those guys- in fact, he had done plenty to make me think he is not one of those guys.

[Hammock Parties]

Borracho, are you frustrated by the fact that Herm talks a big game?

[el borracho]

I'm flustrated by the fact he is our head coach and (seemingly) in charge of rebuilding our team. I have zero confidence in the man to build anything other than average. His football philosophies are outdated.

[Extra Point]

Would Herm have played Grbac or Gannon?

All this 2008 hypothesizing is getting us nowhere. Let's see what happens in the draft, and what happens with our new team.

I can't help but think, though, that Herm hamstrung Solari. The excuses for not winning are being taken away. To the fans, 2008 will be known as a "the" rebuilding year. I hope that the next season will known as "the year we can say we accomplished some things, but we regret leaving."

BTW, on the day that the Lamar Hunt trophy is being awarded, does Fatback write anything negative about Clark?

[Hammock Parties]

Would Herm have played Grbac or Gannon?


Carl would have overruled him.

[Hammock Parties]

BTW, on the day that the Lamar Hunt trophy is being awarded, does Fatback write anything negative about Clark?

He wrote about the Patriots. Direct from New England, too. Must be nice.

[Extra Point]

Carl's overruling power is looking to decrease, I hope.

[Hammock Parties]

Carl's overruling power is looking to decrease, I hope.

Most definitely. About 10 years too late, unfortunately.

[BigRock]

I also think the following facts need to be considered: 1. Herm's Jets got progressively worse
You continue to put forth this notion. How did the Jets get progressively worse? In what way?

In a roundabout way this topic is kind of what I was getting at when I first posted, this notion that Herm never did anything good, and whatever success he did have was only due to the great team he took over, what with it's astonishing one playoff appearance two years earlier.

So hopefully we can sort it out.

[Mecca]

The Jets are a team as bad as us...he left the Jets with less talent than he started with....

How do you expect a coach to rebuild a team when he left the team in a worse spot than he took over..

[Raiderhater]

Hypothetical here.

Let's, for the sake of argument, say that Herman ****ing Edwards is here for 2 more years, and goes 10-6 in both years, but the Chiefs fail to make the post season in either, giving him 4 appearences in 9 years, is he then not successful?



More successful than Dickie V, and I liked Vermiel.


I never liked the Edwards hire, especislly if it meant giving away a draft pick (in any round). However, I will give most anyone a chance. While I am more than ready to be rid of him at this point, if what Clark says ACTUALLY means Herm gets more control and Carl less, I will give Herm another year. He may never be my type of coach, but that doesn't mean that he is a bad coach. I'll make that determination after I see him with more control.

[BigRock]

How do you expect a coach to rebuild a team when he left the team in a worse spot than he took over..

The year he took over, the Jets went 10-6. The year after Herm left, the Jets went 10-6.

And as we learned during the final week of the season, hardly any of his players were on the 2007 team that played so poorly. Are we to blame Herm for Mangini's talent decisions?

[ChiefsFootball]

While I agree with Whitlock that you should distance yourself (the team) from the past, that does not mean you distance yourself (the team) from winning... which is what we (the team) are doing.

[Messier]

It's hard to compare the Chiefs and the Jets. Herm did improve the Jets level of play while he was there he drafted well on defense and, got some "above their head" play out of the offense. There were two of his seasons in New York where he had an unimaginable amount of injuries. He got alot out of Curtis Martin's last years, and he sustained the defense that Parcells build there, as well as adding several starters through the draft. Here he's dealing with a team that was going to implode no matter who coached it. It's like Captain Kirk stetting the self destruct, and two seconds before it detentes he names Sulu captain. Do you blame Sulu if you're star fleet?

[Simplex3]

Why?



Again, why?

What has Herman ****ing Edwards done to earn that loyalty and confidence.

He's a medocre coach whose teams have ranged from mediocre to suckass.

What has this idiot ever done to make anyone believe he actually has a freakin' clue?
There are people out there who interview great but can't do the job worth s**t. I'm guessing Herm is one of those people.

[BigRedChief]

Most definitely. About 10 years too late, unfortunately.
Better late than never.:thumb:

[HemiEd]

More successful than Dickie V, and I liked Vermiel.


I never liked the Edwards hire, especislly if it meant giving away a draft pick (in any round). However, I will give most anyone a chance. While I am more than ready to be rid of him at this point, if what Clark says ACTUALLY means Herm gets more control and Carl less, I will give Herm another year. He may never be my type of coach, but that doesn't mean that he is a bad coach. I'll make that determination after I see him with more control.

Makes sense. I am starting to think, since most of my NFL time has been spent watching this team for the last 39 years, I probably have no successful pattern to judge them by.

Maybe what they are doing will work, I am sure as hell no expert. But Herm sure is a good disguise for success.

[beach tribe]

Having seen year two of the Mangenius, are you looking at the Jets going "this is a team that knows what they're doing"?


As oposed to what? This team?

[el borracho]

You continue to put forth this notion. How did the Jets get progressively worse? In what way?

In a roundabout way this topic is kind of what I was getting at when I first posted, this notion that Herm never did anything good, and whatever success he did have was only due to the great team he took over, what with it's astonishing one playoff appearance two years earlier.

So hopefully we can sort it out.
Herm's Jets won fewer games each season except one. That indicates a regression (each team was progressively worse).

Additionally, look at what Herm left in NY. He had five years to build a core of young, talented players and it didn't happen. Almost noone remains so the question becomes, "If Herm's players were so great, why didn't NY hang onto them?" and, of course, my previous question, "If Herm is so great, why did NY let him go?" and to go one further, "Why wasn't anyone other than Carl interested in Herm's services?"

[el borracho]

Borracho, are you frustrated by the fact that Herm talks a big game?
I see Herm as wanting to build the 2000 Ravens, the 2002 Bucs or the 2006 Bears when I would prefer someone capable of building the 90s Cowboys or the 00s Colts or Pats. I would like a head coach (and GM) capable of putting together a dynasty and I just don't believe that Herm is capable of doing that.

[BigRock]

Herm's Jets won fewer games each season except one.
You can't say "except one". An exception completely invalidates the point you're making. Either they were progressively worse or they weren't, it's a cut and dry issue.

I mean, it would be great if we could all go "Everything I just said is true, except for that one thing that totally disproves it" and have people believe us anyway. But it doesn't work that way.

His best overall team was the one in 2004, four years into his time as head coach. That fact completely rejects the idea that the team got progressively worse while he was there. Every year in NY that Herm's QB didn't get injured, he made the playoffs. And if they weren't killed by injuries in 2005, they might have been even better the next year than they were in '04. Granted, that's total speculation, but they certainly rebounded well in 2006, so there's merit to that position.

Regardless, though, I hope we have established that the "progressively worse" theory is 100% false.

Additionally, look at what Herm left in NY. He had five years to build a core of young, talented players and it didn't happen. Almost noone remains so the question becomes, "If Herm's players were so great, why didn't NY hang onto them?"
Again, you're basing opinions on what some other team did or didn't do. I believe we've covered this ground already, but last season NY made the playoffs with a lot of Herm's guys on the team. This year, with hardly any of Herm's players left, they fell apart. Would you say they made the right choice?

I can't help noticing that I'm starting to repeat myself here, because nothing I'm saying is being taken into consideration. And that would make continued replies somewhat futile on my part. Thus, I fear a stalemate has been reached. But I appriciate the discussion, as you are an informed and well-spoken poster and I enjoy reading your takes on things.

[Mr. Laz]

Clark has been in charge for years ...... why exactly should he be "given a chance"?

the fact that he gave Carl a contract extension a couple of years ago after screwing up for 10 years pretty much says it all.