Raiders Continue Psychotic Binge, Sign Javon Walker

['Hamas' Jenkins]

At 6 years, 55 million.

ROFL

[Sure-Oz]

good lord they just ripped themselves off, i thought he wouldve been lucky to get 1/4 of that

[OnTheWarpath15]

ROFL

Any word on guaranteed money?

Jesus, Al's lost it. First Tommy Kelly, now $9M per for Javon Walker.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

16 mil guaranteed.

[Sure-Oz]

haha...nice he can be their new jerry porter

[L.A. Chieffan]

Raiders get a bad rap but I have no problem with their idiocy

[OnTheWarpath15]

16 mil guaranteed.

:eek:

ROFL

[OnTheWarpath15]

Not to hijack, but I just saw they signed Kwame Harris @ 3/$16M

:D

[LiL stumppy]

lmao geez, i'm suprised that havn't resigned Jeff George yet for 50 mil. He said he was in great physical shape, that has to be enough for them to sign him right?

[88TG88]

haha...nice he can be their new jerry porter

Along with the old Jerry Porter.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

so he's basically as high paid as randy moss...just silly.

[alanm]

As long as Al Davis still draws a breath there is no need to fear the Raiders. ROFL

[Sure-Oz]

Along with the old Jerry Porter.

actually jerry porter signed with the Jaguars for 6 years, 30 mill, hence the NEW porter hehe, suckage with a knee injury now

[Miles]

Oh man LMAO

[evolve27]

Hahahaha, Al Davis has become even more bezerk. They deserve this extremely injury prone guy.

Here's what rotoworld thinks of this disaster:

Al Davis has lost his mind. Even Walker's old coach Mike Shanahan said the receiver eventually needed microfracture surgery on his chronically sore knee. Walker gained 57 yards on seven catches in his last five games last year, and barely seemed able to run. Perhaps he'll recover, but Walker isn't worth Randy Moss money even when healthy. Like Moss' deal with Oakland, this one could end ugly.

[KCFalcon59]

At least the faiders will keep the attention off of how bad we will suck.

[jiveturkey]

I thought that signing as many people as you can in the first couple of weeks of free agency was how you won???

['Hamas' Jenkins]

This just in from John Clayton:

Raiders a winner in free agency.

[JBucc]

Win one for the Crypt Keeper!

[Mecca]

This just in from John Clayton:

Raiders a winner in free agency.

They just base it on players and getting better and not money......the Chiefs and Packers are considered huge losers in FA for not signing anyone.

[raybec 4]

Win one for the Crypt Keeper!

Easy, that got Steakman shitcanned from ESPN, well that and the pictures of his junk.

[Deberg_1990]

I guess if they awarded winners for Free Agents, the Redskins would have win 3 or 4 championships by now.

[SBK]

Print em!!

[Easy 6]

My prediction...6 games of pure DYNAMITE, but once he feels the ugly vibes of chokeland & feels like he's earned some kind of temporary respect...he'll get a hammy...or a knee flare-up...then start flappin' his yap to the sharks...

...and then, OH (Just Choke) BABY.

[the Talking Can]

lmao

[StcChief]

Al Davis is now certifiably crazy.

[kcchiefsus]

Along with the old Jerry Porter.

Uhhh, Porter signed with the Jags.

[SBK]

I bet if Oakland signed Jared Allen it'd be something like a 5 year $250,000,000 contract.

[Chiefs=Champions]

Raiders signed Kwame "penalty" Harris for real??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Mr. Flopnuts]

LMAO Sweet Jesus. That team is ****ed. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of homos.

[Nzoner]

so he's basically as high paid as randy moss...just silly.

Actually he's a million dollars richer in guaranteed money.

[Thig Lyfe]

DAMMIT CARL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[FloridaMan88]

The contract and the money are crazy... but if Walker can bounce back from his injury it would mean the Raiders would be adding a veteran, accomplished WR to the mix. And for the record, Walker would easily be the most accomplished WR on the Chiefs roster if he had signed with the Chiefs.

[|Zach|]

The contract and the money are crazy... but if Walker can bounce back from his injury it would mean the Raiders would be adding a veteran, accomplished WR to the mix. And for the record, Walker would easily be the most accomplished WR on the Chiefs roster if he had signed with the Chiefs.

Oh hey, you never got around to this. Thanks in advance.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4615066&postcount=62

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The contract and the money are crazy... but if Walker can bounce back from his injury it would mean the Raiders would be adding a veteran, accomplished WR to the mix. And for the record, Walker would easily be the most accomplished WR on the Chiefs roster if he had signed with the Chiefs.

So a guy coming off his third knee surgery, and who Shanahan just said needed microfracture surgery, would be a good addition?

ROFL ROFL

[Mecca]

Microfracture surgery isn't a death sentence......guys seem to be routinley coming back from it now.

[Mr. Kotter]

Holy shit.... LMAO

The money---especially the guaranteed money??? :spock:


....the ONLY downside to this, is if somehow, someway....our Chiefs still manage to finish beneath these stupid bastards for the next couple or three years...Damn, Davis is running this once proud organization into the friggin' frozen field turf....heh.

ROFL

[blueballs]

Autumnwind will be here to talk about the KC cellar dellers
as soon as he gets out of Juvy

[keg in kc]

Dammit, why aren't we signing anyone.

[HemiEd]

This just in from John Clayton:

Raiders a winner in free agency.ROFL

[BigMeatballDave]

Microfracture surgery isn't a death sentence......guys seem to be routinley coming back from it now.True, but it does make players miss entire seasons.

[ClevelandBronco]

A healthy Javon is a great signing.

Unfortunately, no one has seen anything resembling a healthy Javon in recent seasons.

After what happened with Walker and Darrent Williams, I can only wish full recovery, peace, and success for Mr. Walker.

I hope he has a career season while his team still sucks ass.

[Fairplay]

Ha ha ha and lol. ROFL

Look what they are saying at the radiersuckass board here.

Warning it will smell of poop.

http://www.raiderskickass.com/upload/black-hole/20789-we-out-flipping-mind.html

[PhillyChiefFan]

Wow...just wow.

[beer bacon]

Not to hijack, but I just saw they signed Kwame Harris @ 3/$16M

:D

There is no way Jared Allen is leaving the AFC-West now.

[JakeT]

The real question we should be asking ourselves is who can we trade to the Raiders -- these fools will overpay for anyone of seasoned vets

[KcMizzou]

Ha ha ha and lol. ROFL

Look what they are saying at the radiersuckass board here.

Warning it will smell of poop.

http://www.raiderskickass.com/upload/black-hole/20789-we-out-flipping-mind.htmlI like the thread title.

Are we out of are flipping mind!!!!!!

[OnTheWarpath15]

Let's say for sake of conversation that Walker was completely healthy.

Would you think he's worth $9M per?

[Brock]

Al has obviously reasserted his control over the team.

[Mile High Mania]

Congrats to Javon... he got his big $, but seriously... the Raiders did nothing with Moss and Porter. Sure, they have a new young QB that nobody really knows how well he can be... but, they're ground game is a mixed bag and Javon is great player when healthy, but what is the real story around his health?

Weird signing ... in addition to all the other big $ deals they're doing this season.

[Rasputin]

As much as I want to harp on the Raiders, (cus I hate th3 Raiders). We don't have much to really brag about either. Hopefully we get our Sh!t together and they completely melt down (wich they have) or just fall off the coast.

I hate you FN rrRaiiders you are the bastards of the NFL.

[OnTheWarpath15]

As much as I want to harp on the Raiders, (cus I hate th3 Raiders). We don't have much to really brag about either. Hopefully we get our Sh!t together and they completely melt down (wich they have) or just fall off the coast.

I hate you FN rrRaiiders you are the bastards of the NFL.

I'll gladly brag about the fact that we haven't spent eleventy billion dollars on fringe players and oft-injured malcontents.

They've yet to make a prudent, fiscally responsible signing. Just throwing money at the problem, isn't going to SOLVE the problem.

[Rasputin]

I'll gladly brag about the fact that we haven't spent eleventy billion dollars on fringe players and oft-injured malcontents.

They've yet to make a prudent, fiscally responsible signing. Just throwing money at the problem, isn't going to SOLVE the problem.


In that case, I agree totally with you. We haven't done what we have done in the past and sign the old expensive short term vet. We will be better off in the future. Now we just have to win our games and beat the tarded Raiders.

[Micjones]

Something's really wrong when we laugh at a team making an honest attempt at improving their franchises.
:shake:

[Eleazar]

Something's really wrong when we laugh at a team making an honest attempt at improving their franchises.
:shake:

This isn't honest, it's honestly stupid.

[milkman]

Something's really wrong when we laugh at a team making an honest attempt at improving their franchises.
:shake:

If I were attempting to make home improvements, and someone were watching me and not laughing, there'd be something wrong with them.

We're not laughing at the honest attempt.

We're laughing at the incompentency of that attempt.

[the Talking Can]

Something's really wrong when we laugh at a team making an honest attempt at improving their franchises.
:shake:

ROFL

[Micjones]

This isn't honest, it's honestly stupid.

There are some that think the same of our approach.

[Micjones]

If I were attempting to make home improvements, and someone were watching me and not laughing, there'd be something wrong with them.

We're not laughing at the honest attempt.

We're laughing at the incompentency of that attempt.

Some of your peers have scoffed at just about everything that's taken place thus far in Free Agency.

[Eleazar]

There are some that think the same of our approach.

There are some that think this is the latest in a longstanding trend of Oakland throwing way-over-market-value offers at players who are over the hill, washed up, or just not that good in the first place.

[Micjones]

There are some that think this is the latest in a longstanding trend of Oakland throwing way-over-market-value offers at players who are over the hill, washed up, or just not that good in the first place.

Indeed.

I don't question their motivation though. Just their methodology.

[htismaqe]

Some of your peers have scoffed at just about everything that's taken place thus far in Free Agency.

Good lord dude...

[vailpass]

Some of your peers have scoffed at just about everything that's taken place thus far in Free Agency.

Could you come across as anymore of a tool if you tried?
Just wondering.

Oh and LOFL at Al Davis and the Fade.

[chagrin]

Good lord dude...

:cuss:

[Pitt Gorilla]

I'll gladly brag about the fact that we haven't spent eleventy billion dollars on fringe players and oft-injured malcontents.

They've yet to make a prudent, fiscally responsible signing. Just throwing money at the problem, isn't going to SOLVE the problem.I agree. I like what we're doing in FA (not overspending on crap). It's a nice change from some of our signings of the past. Stockpile picks, draft well (would be much easier without Carl, and improve.

[Micjones]

Could you come across as anymore of a tool if you tried?
Just wondering.

You're a different type of cat Vail.
And oh yeah... Opinions are like assholes.
So think what you'd like.

[vailpass]

You're a different type of cat Vail.
And oh yeah... Opinions are like assholes.
So think what you'd like.

:) I am a different cat, you are correct.

[Bowser]

Where the **** is Autumnfartinthewind?


And, is there any doubt that Pacman Jones is going to be a Raider?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Something's really wrong when we laugh at a team making an honest attempt at improving their franchises.
:shake:

Please tell me you're kidding.

Tommy Kelly: An average defensive lineman that can play DT or DE, who's not big enough to be a run stuffer, yet lacks pass rushing skills. And, he's coming off of a torn ACL.

Al's bright idea? Make him the highest paid DL in the LEAGUE. 7 years, $50M, $18M guaranteed.

Gibril Wilson: The epitome of average. Looked much better than he actually is due to the Giants front 7. Led the league in tackles for a safety over last 3 years - that's not exactly a good thing.

Al's bright idea? 6 years, $39M, $16M guaranteed.

Kwame Harris: Makes Jordan Black look like Willie Roaf. Couldn't beat out rookie Joe Staley at RIGHT TACKLE last year.

Al's bright idea: Bring him in to protect JaMarcus Russell's blindside, 3 years, $16M, $5.6M guaranteed.

Javon Walker: Fits the Raiders "team first" mentality to a T. :rolleyes: A solid receiver, WHEN HEALTHY, which hasn't been often as of late. A HUGE risk.

Al's bright idea: Pay him more than Randy Moss. 6 years, $55M, $16M guaranteed.


I challenge ANYONE to state a case of how ANY of these signings could be considered good signings.

[StcChief]

So a guy coming off his third knee surgery, and who Shanahan just said needed microfracture surgery, would be a good addition?

ROFL ROFLAl Davis and their doctor's know all..... who's getting him the ball?

[Dylan]

Raiders agreed to terms with Javon Walker on a six-year, $55 million contract, with $16 million guaranteed. He'll make $27 million in the first three years.

Al Davis has lost his mind. Even Walker's old coach Mike Shanahan said the receiver eventually needed microfracture surgery on his chronically sore knee. No one else was bidding for Walker, and many teams publicly denounced any interest. Walker gained 57 yards on seven catches in his last five games last year, and barely seemed able to run. Perhaps he'll recover, but Walker isn't worth Randy Moss money even when healthy. Like Moss' deal with Oakland, this one could end ugly.

"...and barely seemed able to run"
:eek:

[Micjones]

Please tell me you're kidding.

Tommy Kelly: An average defensive lineman that can play DT or DE, who's not big enough to be a run stuffer, yet lacks pass rushing skills. And, he's coming off of a torn ACL.

Al's bright idea? Make him the highest paid DL in the LEAGUE. 7 years, $50M, $18M guaranteed.

Gibril Wilson: The epitome of average. Looked much better than he actually is due to the Giants front 7. Led the league in tackles for a safety over last 3 years - that's not exactly a good thing.

Al's bright idea? 6 years, $39M, $16M guaranteed.

Kwame Harris: Makes Jordan Black look like Willie Roaf. Couldn't beat out rookie Joe Staley at RIGHT TACKLE last year.

Al's bright idea: Bring him in to protect JaMarcus Russell's blindside, 3 years, $16M, $5.6M guaranteed.

Javon Walker: Fits the Raiders "team first" mentality to a T. :rolleyes: A solid receiver, WHEN HEALTHY, which hasn't been often as of late. A HUGE risk.

Al's bright idea: Pay him more than Randy Moss. 6 years, $55M, $16M guaranteed.


I challenge ANYONE to state a case of how ANY of these signings could be considered good signings.

You may not agree that these are quality Free Agent signings.
Obviously Oakland does. They've done SOMETHING.

[Sure-Oz]

You may not agree that these are quality Free Agent signings.
Obviously Oakland does. They've done SOMETHING.

That isn't saying alot...huge payout to Walker who got cut and has knee issues, and avg guys. Yeah more than we've done but we aren't breaking the bank for avg crap.

[Micjones]

That isn't saying alot...huge payout to Walker who got cut and has knee issues, and avg guys. Yeah more than we've done but we aren't breaking the bank for avg crap.

I wasn't interested in any of the Raiders' Free Agent group.
Even at the right price I think I might've passed on Walker.

I'm just saying... We're sitting, Indian Style, and hoping a bunch of late Round draftpicks and UDFA can rescue us while other teams are working to improve their franchises.

I'm not suggesting that we do what Oakland did.
I'm suggesting that we do SOMETHING to improve this franchise.

[OnTheWarpath15]

You may not agree that these are quality Free Agent signings.
Obviously Oakland does. They've done SOMETHING.

Yeah, they've done something.

Likely crippled the franchise when they can't pay anyone in 2 years because of these ridiculous contracts.

We've done something too:

Not overpaid for average players coming off of severe injury.

[htismaqe]

I wasn't interested in any of the Raiders' Free Agent group.
Even at the right price I think I might've passed on Walker.

I'm just saying... We're sitting, Indian Style, and hoping a bunch of late Round draftpicks and UDFA can rescue us while other teams are working to improve their franchises.

I'm not suggesting that we do what Oakland did.
I'm suggesting that we do SOMETHING to improve this franchise.

Using late round draft picks and UDFA's IS a method of improving the team, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

[noa]

The only SOMETHING the Raiders have done is hurt their franchise's future.

That's not the SOMETHING you should be advocating for the Chiefs.

[beach tribe]

You may not agree that these are quality Free Agent signings.
Obviously Oakland does. They've done SOMETHING.

Dude, these moves are rediculous, and fortunately, will set back what was once a rising franchise, for many years.

I love it.

[Sure-Oz]

I am just glad we haven't overpaid anyone and have that money for a real guy we need on the team. The FA market wasn't that strong to begin with anyway...

I still would've liked to get Bryant Johnson but maybe we'll draft a guy that could be as good if not better.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I wasn't interested in any of the Raiders' Free Agent group.
Even at the right price I think I might've passed on Walker.

I'm just saying... We're sitting, Indian Style, and hoping a bunch of late Round draftpicks and UDFA can rescue us while other teams are working to improve their franchises.

I'm not suggesting that we do what Oakland did.
I'm suggesting that we do SOMETHING to improve this franchise.


WE ARE.

We're giving young guys an opportunity to start and grow into solid players.

Something they should have done over a year ago.

Tamba Hali and Dwayne Bowe are the only young players that have played from DAY ONE since Herm's been here. And Bowe wouldn't even be on the list had Kennison not blown a hammy on Opening Day.

Carl Peterson has done everything in his power to make sure we play veteran guys over rookies/young guys for fear of dropping below his benchmark of 8-8.

That's NOT how you rebuild a franchise. We currently have 60 players on the roster, with 10-11 more coming through the draft.

YOU see holes.

I see opportunity for the young guys to become the next Jared Allen - a late round pick who seized the day when it came.

[htismaqe]

WE ARE.

We're giving young guys an opportunity to start and grow into solid players.

Something they should have done over a year ago.

Tamba Hali and Dwayne Bowe are the only young players that have played from DAY ONE since Herm's been here. And Bowe wouldn't even be on the list had Kennison not blown a hammy on Opening Day.

Carl Peterson has done everything in his power to make sure we play veteran guys over rookies/young guys for fear of dropping below his benchmark of 8-8.

That's NOT how you rebuild a franchise. We currently have 60 players on the roster, with 10-11 more coming through the draft.

YOU see holes.

I see opportunity for the young guys to become the next Jared Allen - a late round pick who seized the day when it came.

:clap:

[Micjones]

WE ARE.

We're giving young guys an opportunity to start and grow into solid players.

I'm fine with that, but certainly that's not all there is to building a winning franchise...

Tamba Hali and Dwayne Bowe are the only young players that have played from DAY ONE since Herm's been here.

You do realize that they were #1 draftpicks?

And Bowe wouldn't even be on the list had Kennison not blown a hammy on Opening Day.

Nonsense. His talent would've demanded it.
He would've pushed his way into the starting lineup.

That's a part of what bugs me about this philosophy.
It almost assumes that no younger players could've pushed their way into more significant roles. I don't buy that. Especially with how depleted the roster is at so many spots.

It's also a philosophy that rewards just making the team and not hardwork to earn starting jobs.

YOU see holes.

Anyone with their wits about them sees holes.
To pretend that we're all set merely because we have bodies is insanity...

I see opportunity for the young guys to become the next Jared Allen - a late round pick who seized the day when it came.

It's great when it happens, but that can't be a strategy...

If it were... Every team would trade out of the early rounds and load up on Day 2 picks.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Free agency is teh winz!


From the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/sports/football/29nfl.html?ref=todayspaper



“Clubs are getting much more adept at keeping their own players, and agents have learned that the grass isn’t always greener,” the Colts’ president, Bill Polian, said. “The room gives you a little more breathing space to sign your own; that’s the positive byproduct of the salary cap. And that includes the franchise tag.”


Polian, who also signed safety Bob Sanders to an extension during the season and has never been a fan of free agency, added, “We’re out of business.”


For general managers frantic to quickly improve their team, receiver Brandon Lloyd may serve as this year’s cautionary tale. Two years ago, the Redskins traded two draft picks for Lloyd, who was a restricted free agent in San Francisco, and gave him a new contract that included a $10 million signing bonus. He caught only 25 passes, scored no touchdowns, clashed with coaches and teammates and, was cut last week. Or how about the 49ers, who went on a shopping spree last off-season, highlighted by the $80 million contract given to cornerback Nate Clements? For their money, they won five games.


Those kinds of missteps may be spurring the wave of fiscal conservatism in front offices. Polian suspects that older, more established executives like Bill Parcells (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/bill_parcells/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Bill Belichick (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/bill_belichick/index.html?inline=nyt-per) have no need to make splashy moves and have learned that breaking the bank rarely leads to success. Even the Patriots’ active off-season last year was notable mostly for prudent trades for Wes Welker and Moss.


“Daniel Snyder was irrational exuberance,” the agent Brad Blank said. “He used to bid against himself for guys like Brandon Lloyd. But a lot of teams now realize it’s better to keep your own players. So many players have gotten big contracts and been busts.”

[chagrin]

I wasn't interested in any of the Raiders' Free Agent group.
Even at the right price I think I might've passed on Walker.

I'm just saying... We're sitting, Indian Style, and hoping a bunch of late Round draftpicks and UDFA can rescue us while other teams are working to improve their franchises.

I'm not suggesting that we do what Oakland did.
I'm suggesting that we do SOMETHING to improve this franchise.

I don't think anyone here believes we're going to "win now", that's what Oakland thinks they are doing, we're obviously going the route of improving through the draft and maybe picking up one or two FA's - wouldn't you agree with that??

[KCFalcon59]

Looks like our 2 wins next year will come from beating Oakland.

[htismaqe]

Nonsense. His talent would've demanded it.
He would've pushed his way into the starting lineup.

They wouldn't have known how much talent he has if it hadn't been for injury. Seriously, how long have you been a fan?

Anyone with their wits about them sees holes.
To pretend that we're all set merely because we have bodies is insanity...


So you want to jump into free agency and sign some more bodies. Not necessarily BETTER, just different. That sounds great.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm fine with that, but certainly that's not all there is to building a winning franchise...

Building a Championship Caliber team takes TIME. It's taken the Chargers SIX years, and they STILL haven't gotten over the hump. It took the Colts almost 10 years of drafting after Manning to win a Lombardi Trophy. The Steelers had 3 losing seasons before making the playoffs on a regular basis, then went another FOUR years before actually winning the Super Bowl.


You do realize that they were #1 draftpicks?

Exactly my point. Why aren't the other picks playing from Day One?

Carl Peterson.

There are 2nd-7th round draft picks all over the league that have started from Day One. But not in KC. Why? Peterson has been delaying the inevitable for years - a TRUE rebuild.

Hell, there are CHAMPIONSHIP caliber teams that have trusted rookies to step right in and perform.

Tony Ugoh, R2
Eric Weddle, R2
Jay Alford, R3
Derek Landri, R5

That's just playoff teams from THIS year, off the top of my head.

There are a ton of 2nd day guys that started for their respective teams from Day One.


Nonsense. His talent would've demanded it.
He would've pushed his way into the starting lineup.

That's a part of what bugs me about this philosophy.
It almost assumes that no younger players could've pushed their way into more significant roles. I don't buy that. Especially with how depleted the roster is at so many spots.

It's also a philosophy that rewards just making the team and not hardwork to earn starting jobs.

He SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD to PUSH his way into the starting lineup. He should have been in it IMMEDIATELY.

That's the whole point. There have been too many cooks in the kitchen - namely, Carl Peterson. He's fought against young players playing for YEARS.

It APPEARS that Clark Hunt told him to STFD and STFU, leaving those decisions solely to Herm, where they belong.

Anyone with their wits about them sees holes.
To pretend that we're all set merely because we have bodies is insanity...

You see holes because you're expecting/demanding 8-8.

It's great when it happens, but that can't be a strategy...

If it were... Every team would trade out of the early rounds and load up on Day 2 picks.

Actually, it's a phenomenal strategy, one that's worked for most of the latest SB winners.

Something the Colts, Patriots and Steelers all have in common. They are NOT afraid to let a vet walk, and replace him with unknown talent.

Edgerrin James.

Deion Branch.

Asante Samuel.

Joey Porter.

Just to name a few.

[Micjones]

I don't think anyone here believes we're going to "win now", that's what Oakland thinks they are doing, we're obviously going the route of improving through the draft and maybe picking up one or two FA's - wouldn't you agree with that??

Sure.

But Free Agents who'll actually make a difference.
Not some chumps that can't make a roster come August.

[Micjones]

They wouldn't have known how much talent he has if it hadn't been for injury. Seriously, how long have you been a fan?

Bowe was a #1 pick.
And he would've only had to beat out Samie "All World" Parker to push his way into the starting lineup. That sounds like a daunting task.
:rolleyes:

So you want to jump into free agency and sign some more bodies. Not necessarily BETTER, just different. That sounds great.

Jake Scott's just a body?
Randall Gay is just a body?

That's news to me.

[Micjones]

Building a Championship Caliber team takes TIME.

I concur.

It's taken the Chargers SIX years, and they STILL haven't gotten over the hump.

And you're applauding their methodology?

It took the Colts almost 10 years of drafting after Manning to win a Lombardi Trophy.

I would argue that it took a change in philosophy, but go on...

Exactly my point. Why aren't the other picks playing from Day One?

What Day 1 picks aren't playing?

Hell, there are CHAMPIONSHIP caliber teams that have trusted rookies to step right in and perform.

Tony Ugoh, R2
Eric Weddle, R2
Jay Alford, R3
Derek Landri, R5

Indeed. It's a little easier to do that when we're talking about Day 1 draftees though. Many of the bodies on our roster were taken much lower than this.

He SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD to PUSH his way into the starting lineup. He should have been in it IMMEDIATELY.

I'm fine with that.
My point is... Talent is what made Bowe. Not opportunity.
But when talent MET opportunity... BAM!!!

You see holes because you're expecting/demanding 8-8.

I'm not demanding anything.
I've said before that I'm not concerned with Win/Loss records.

There are holes on this team if we win 3 games next season.

Actually, it's a phenomenal strategy, one that's worked for most of the latest SB winners.

Superbowl winners don't depend on late Day 2 guys to develop.
That's simply not true.

Edgerrin James.

Replaced by the 30th overall pick in the Draft.

Deion Branch.

Replaced by Free Agent Wide Receivers.
Chad Jackson? The 36th overall pick.

Asante Samuel.

Not sure who'll take his spot. Assuming it's Ellis Hobbs... 84th overall pick.

For all aforementioned players... They were replaced by DAY 1 GUYS.

Joey Porter.

I THINK James Harrison took over for Porter when he skipped town.
BUT, the Steelers let him walk because he was approaching 30 and Tomlin wanted to go a different direction with his LB's.

Harrison was an Undrafted Free Agent LB, but he was signed in 2002. And he played quite a bit the three years prior to being given Porter's job. I think that's a teensy bit different.

[OnTheWarpath15]

FWIW, I'm talking about a draft pick starting FROM DAY ONE. Meaning that on opening day, he's holding down a starting spot.

Not to be confused with picks on day 1 of the DRAFT.

[htismaqe]

Bowe was a #1 pick.
And he would've only had to beat out Samie "All World" Parker to push his way into the starting lineup. That sounds like a daunting task.
:rolleyes:

I swear to God, you've been following the Chiefs for about 11 months.

Jake Scott's just a body?
Randall Gay is just a body?

That's news to me.

They're not a good as you'd want us all to think they are. It's VERY possible that we have guys already on the roster that will end up being better...

[htismaqe]

Talent did NOT make Bowe. He would have never been on the field sans the injury.

But if you want to keep going on about it, let's try this one:

JARED ALLEN

[chagrin]

Talent did NOT make Bowe. He would have never been on the field sans the injury.

But if you want to keep going on about it, let's try this one:

JARED ALLEN

Hey - I'm not being argumentative here, just curious; are you saying that Bowe doesn't have the talent to be a starter?

[Sure-Oz]

Bowe has the talent but if kennison wasn't hurt he probably would've been a #3 or #4 and had like 20 catches for the season. Knowing them, they wouldve wanted him to watch and learn etc...

[htismaqe]

Hey - I'm not being argumentative here, just curious; are you saying that Bowe doesn't have the talent to be a starter?

No, I'm saying that Carl Peterson has shown over and over again that he doesn't have the guts to put young players on the field...

[Micjones]

FWIW, I'm talking about a draft pick starting FROM DAY ONE. Meaning that on opening day, he's holding down a starting spot.

Not to be confused with picks on day 1 of the DRAFT.

I got that part. And what I pointed out to you was the fact that EVERY ONE of the players you mentioned was succeeded by draft picks taken on the first day of the NFL Draft.

So that doesn't apply to our situation here...
The Day 1 guys are playing a lot of football.

We can't rely on Day 2 guys to do the same thing.

[Micjones]

I swear to God, you've been following the Chiefs for about 11 months.

No, I've been following the Chiefs for 20 years.
You can't make anyone here believe that Bowe wouldn't have taken the job from Samie Parker if Kennison hadn't gone down. That's a joke. Bowe's infinitely more talented than Parker. And he's a #1 draft pick. He would've gotten his shot either way...

They're not a good as you'd want us all to think they are. It's VERY possible that we have guys already on the roster that will end up being better...

I haven't really gone on record with how good I think they are.
You admitted that Gay was worth the contract he received. That says enough. He's heads and shoulders better than any Corner on this team not named Surtain (as of today). Whether or not that will continue to be true remains to be seen. But again... You don't rely on Day 2 guys if you don't have to.

You give them a chance to earn more time (as I'm hoping we'll do with a guy like Brackenridge who has earned it), but you don't depend on Dimitri Patterson.

The Chiefs wouldn't have if they could've signed Reeves.
They wanted to upgrade that position.

So why you keep arguing for standing pat, in Free Agency -- at Cornerback, makes zero sense.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I got that part. And what I pointed out to you was the fact that EVERY ONE of the players you mentioned was succeeded by draft picks taken on the first day of the NFL Draft.

So that doesn't apply to our situation here...

Who CARES where they were picked. Those other teams have the guts to START rookies - We didn't, up until now.

Hali was the only Herm pick that started Opening Day.

Why?

Carl was more worried about 8-8 than developing young players.

Why was Bowe not an immediate starter?

Page? Pollard? Turk? Tank?

Why didn't Croyle START THE SEASON?

Answer: Carl Peterson.

There wasn't an incumbent at ANY of those positions that should have been playing over them.

The Day 1 guys are playing a lot of football.

Really?

I'm guessing Turk and Tank MIGHT have averaged 5 snaps a game.

That's unacceptable, especially considering we don't have anyone else worth a shit at that position.

We can't rely on Day 2 guys to do the same thing.

Why not?

Other teams do - because they aren't deathly afraid to.

[htismaqe]

No, I've been following the Chiefs for 20 years.
You can't make anyone here believe that Bowe wouldn't have taken the job from Samie Parker if Kennison hadn't gone down. That's a joke. Bowe's infinitely more talented than Parker. And he's a #1 draft pick. He would've gotten his shot either way...

Not right away he wouldn't have. Furthermore, we're not talking about 1st-round draft picks, we're talking about guys that were low picks or UDFA's and ONLY got to show that they could cut it once they got on the field. The analog on our team is Jared Allen, and he didn't take the job from Vonnie Holliday without an injury.

So why you keep arguing for standing pat, in Free Agency -- at Cornerback, makes zero sense.

Once again, let me make this clear. I'm NOT arguing FOR standing pat. If they get involved in free agency, I'm not gonna be mad. I'm just not gonna be mad if they skip it altogther, either.

[OnTheWarpath15]

No, I've been following the Chiefs for 20 years.
You can't make anyone here believe that Bowe wouldn't have taken the job from Samie Parker if Kennison hadn't gone down. That's a joke. Bowe's infinitely more talented than Parker. And he's a #1 draft pick. He would've gotten his shot either way...

You're missing the point entirely.

Bowe shouldn't have had to TAKE anything from Parker.

He SHOULD have been named the #2 receiver THE DAY he walked into camp.

That's Carl Peterson's M.O. Sitting young players - while the Vets skate by, not getting the job done. The good 'ol boy network at its finest.

Another example: Instead of trusting Kolby Smith to be the backup, we go through the Priest Holmes Charade. As it turns out, PH gets hurt as well, and we find out that out R5 Rb actually has some talent.

BECAUSE HE GOT TO PLAY. He would have been buried on the depth chart the entire year had LJ and PH not gotten hurt.

I haven't really gone on record with how good I think they are.
You admitted that Gay was worth the contract he received. That says enough. He's heads and shoulders better than any Corner on this team not named Surtain (as of today). Whether or not that will continue to be true remains to be seen. But again... You don't rely on Day 2 guys if you don't have to.

You give them a chance to earn more time (as I'm hoping we'll do with a guy like Brackenridge who has earned it), but you don't depend on Dimitri Patterson.

The Chiefs wouldn't have if they could've signed Reeves.
They wanted to upgrade that position.

So why you keep arguing for standing pat, in Free Agency -- at Cornerback, makes zero sense.

You THINK he's head and shoulders better than any of our CB's not named Surtain.

Since none of those guys have actually PLAYED, that's an impossible assessment to make.

Granted, Benny Sapp isn't on the roster, but do you think Randall Gay is better than Sapp?

I think the fact that Gay played for NE makes people THINK he's better than he actually is.

[Sure-Oz]

Sapp isn't on the team now?

[Valiant]

I'm fine with that, but certainly that's not all there is to building a winning franchise...



You do realize that they were #1 draftpicks?



Nonsense. His talent would've demanded it.
He would've pushed his way into the starting lineup.

That's a part of what bugs me about this philosophy.
It almost assumes that no younger players could've pushed their way into more significant roles. I don't buy that. Especially with how depleted the roster is at so many spots.

It's also a philosophy that rewards just making the team and not hardwork to earn starting jobs.



Anyone with their wits about them sees holes.
To pretend that we're all set merely because we have bodies is insanity...



It's great when it happens, but that can't be a strategy...

If it were... Every team would trade out of the early rounds and load up on Day 2 picks.

You are clueless if you thought Bowe would have earned a starting spot without the injury to Kennison, or have not been a Chiefs fan very long...

[Valiant]

Hey - I'm not being argumentative here, just curious; are you saying that Bowe doesn't have the talent to be a starter?

He is saying in this organization, he would not have been the starter without help.. Bowe had the talent to be the Starter when he was drafted..

Bowe would have only seen partial playing time the whole year as the 3rd WR if the injury did not happen so he could learn the system(per past tactics of chief organization)

MicNuts thinks Bowe would have been the starter without the injury, and he would be correct if it were a different organization in the NFL..

But this is the Chiefs..

[Valiant]

No, I've been following the Chiefs for 20 years.
You can't make anyone here believe that Bowe wouldn't have taken the job from Samie Parker if Kennison hadn't gone down. That's a joke. Bowe's infinitely more talented than Parker. And he's a #1 draft pick. He would've gotten his shot either way...




Bowe would not have taken the job.. For following the Chiefs for 20 years, one would figure that you know Carl and the office enough to figure that out..

They would rather keep Parker in there who has been in the system for a few years over some rookie(even if he has a better tool set).. Going to start calling you Jaz..

[Hammock Parties]

Sapp isn't on the team now?

Sapp is a lock to get cut.

[Halfcan]

wow-pretty lame

[Micjones]

Who CARES where they were picked. Those other teams have the guts to START rookies - We didn't, up until now.

Once again, the situations were clearly different.

Hali was the only Herm pick that started Opening Day.

Now you're caught on the wings of the extreme.
Several players drafted by this franchise on Day 1 of the NFL Draft are getting significant time. I can count 4 of them who are currently starters.

Why was Bowe not an immediate starter?

How about the lengthy holdout?
Or did you forget that he missed most of camp?

He would've been had he been in on time.
Why you're trying to argue the point makes no sense.
It might with a significantly less talented player, but that argument doesn't wash with Bowe.

Really?

I'm guessing Turk and Tank MIGHT have averaged 5 snaps a game.

Two exceptions to that rule.
But I'm convinced that they both get significant time in Year 2.
One of them might even become a starter.

Other teams do - because they aren't deathly afraid to.

I'm still waiting for you to identify who those teams are.
The examples you posted don't apply to the scenario here in Chiefs kingdom.

[Micjones]

Bowe would not have taken the job.. For following the Chiefs for 20 years, one would figure that you know Carl and the office enough to figure that out..

You're kidding yourself.
To say that this organization has often misappropriated players is one thing.
To say that a player with Dwayne Bowe's talent has been stifled is a joke.
No way they intentionally hold a player back with his talent.
He would've TAKEN that job.

And had he been in camp on time it would've been his from Day 1 anyway.

[Micjones]

Not right away he wouldn't have. Furthermore, we're not talking about 1st-round draft picks, we're talking about guys that were low picks or UDFA's and ONLY got to show that they could cut it once they got on the field. The analog on our team is Jared Allen, and he didn't take the job from Vonnie Holliday without an injury.

How long do you think it would've taken Bowe to take the job from Parker?
I can't believe this is even being argued.

Jared Allen is the exception and not the rule.

Once again, let me make this clear. I'm NOT arguing FOR standing pat. If they get involved in free agency, I'm not gonna be mad. I'm just not gonna be mad if they skip it altogther, either.

Fair enough.

[Micjones]

You're missing the point entirely.

Bowe shouldn't have had to TAKE anything from Parker.

You're glossing over one rather big piece of information.
Bowe missed lots of time because he wasn't under contract when the team left for River Falls, Wisconsin. If he had been there from the outset he would've been the team's #2 Receiver.

Another example: Instead of trusting Kolby Smith to be the backup, we go through the Priest Holmes Charade. As it turns out, PH gets hurt as well, and we find out that out R5 Rb actually has some talent.

I tend to agree, but this also had a lot to do with the mess the whole situation with Holmes had become the two seasons prior. AND, Holmes playing also had implications in LJ's contract negotiation.

You THINK he's head and shoulders better than any of our CB's not named Surtain.

Well seeing how I'm the person who said that...
:rolleyes:

You're going to argue that any Corner on this team is a better option than Gay? Go right ahead, ace.

Since none of those guys have actually PLAYED, that's an impossible assessment to make.

So let's go on what we know...
Currently... Gay's a better option.

Had he been signed the young guys would still have opportunities to prove themselves. And I'm guessing the other starting job would've opened up in 2009. Hello young guy, take your rightful place (that you earned) in the starting lineuup.

Granted, Benny Sapp isn't on the roster, but do you think Randall Gay is better than Sapp?

Yes. But like you said... He's not on the roster.

I think the fact that Gay played for NE makes people THINK he's better than he actually is.

That has no bearing on why I think he's a better option.

[Micjones]

You are clueless if you thought Bowe would have earned a starting spot without the injury to Kennison, or have not been a Chiefs fan very long...

You're right... I'm clueless to think the most talented Receiver we've drafted in 20 years (I probably wouldn't know that if I hadn't been a Chiefs fan very long) would've taken a job from a guy they ARE unlikely to resign.

[Micjones]

He is saying in this organization, he would not have been the starter without help.. Bowe had the talent to be the Starter when he was drafted..

Bowe would have only seen partial playing time the whole year as the 3rd WR if the injury did not happen so he could learn the system(per past tactics of chief organization)

MicNuts thinks Bowe would have been the starter without the injury, and he would be correct if it were a different organization in the NFL..

But this is the Chiefs..

You never answered the question. Cute.

At some point one of you will realize that missing precious time in camp had everything to do with Bowe not being a Day 1 starter.

And again... We're not talking about some Third Round guy with marginal talent. We're talking about the first legitimate Offensive Rookie of the Year candidate in God knows how long... The best Wide Receiver taken by this organization since...?

If you think this organization would've held him back when it was clear he was head and shoulders and another set of head and shoulders above Samie Parker then you can trust NOTHING they are planning to do going forward. I'll admit that they've done this time and again where the lines were gray, but in this situation? No way...

[Valiant]

You never answered the question. Cute.

At some point one of you will realize that missing precious time in camp had everything to do with Bowe not being a Day 1 starter.

And again... We're not talking about some Third Round guy with marginal talent. We're talking about the first legitimate Offensive Rookie of the Year candidate in God knows how long... The best Wide Receiver taken by this organization since...?

If you think this organization would've held him back when it was clear he was head and shoulders and another set of head and shoulders above Samie Parker then you can trust NOTHING they are planning to do going forward. I'll admit that they've done this time and again where the lines were gray, but in this situation? No way...

Talking about never answering the question..(At least we give a reasoning besides opinion, you just deflect..)

You keep acting like your personal decision is what is fact..

Fact is we could have drafted Brett Farve and he would have not started..
You continue to forget the past norms of this franchise and think that he would have started even if he was head and shoulders above Parker..

Your defense to this whole argument is your opinion which goes against the chiefs norms, and comparing him to late round draft picks..

Get a clue, no one is saying he was not talented enough to be the starter from day one.. Just in this organization, without a injury he would not have been the starter and had the season he had last year...

[Micjones]

Talking about never answering the question..

You keep acting like your personal decision is what is fact..

Fact is we could have drafted Brett Farve and he would have not started..
You continue to forget the past norms of this franchise and think that he would have started even if he was head and shoulders above Parker..

Your defense to this whole argument is your opinion which goes against the chiefs norms, and comparing him to late round draft picks..

Get a clue, no one is saying he was not talented enough to be the starter from day one.. Just in this organization, without a injury he would not have been the starter and had the season he had last year...

Name 1 Chiefs player comparable in talent to Dwayne Bowe that has ever had to sit behind wildly underqualified players?

[beach tribe]

How long do you think it would've taken Bowe to take the job from Parker?
I can't believe this is even being argued.

Jared Allen is the exception and not the rule.



Fair enough.

Don't Forget. The most talented reciever we've had (besides Bowe) in the last 20 yrs was................Joe Horn.

[beach tribe]

Name 1 Chiefs player comparable in talent to Dwayne Bowe that has ever had to sit behind wildly underqualified players?

See above.

[beach tribe]

You're right... I'm clueless to think the most talented Receiver we've drafted in 20 years (I probably wouldn't know that if I hadn't been a Chiefs fan very long) would've taken a job from a guy they ARE unlikely to resign.

Eventually yes, he would have taken the job, but that might have been in week 8 or 12. He would've had about 40 catches prolly.

[Valiant]

Name 1 Chiefs player comparable in talent to Dwayne Bowe that has ever had to sit behind wildly underqualified players?

Jarred Allen

Joe Horn (talent never realized because he had to sit behind and never play)

Hell Brodie Croyle by your definition above, had to wait because Herm and Carl wanted to try and get to 8-8, even though he is head and shoulders more talented then Huard..

[Micjones]

Don't Forget. The most talented reciever we've had (besides Bowe) in the last 20 yrs was................Joe Horn.

I'm not sure I can agree with that one...
Horn was a 5th Round pick. There wasn't the same level of expectation when he came out of college. And again, Day 2 guy.

No one knew what kind of talent Horn had until 5 years into his career.

[Micjones]

Jarred Allen

Allen? Maybe... He ended up starting 10 games his rookie season though.
So was he really stifled?

Joe Horn (talent never realized because he had to sit behind and never play)

Can't give you Horn.
He developed into a big time Wide Receiver.
He was a 5th Round guy. No one expected him to blossom the way he did once he left town.

Hell Brodie Croyle by your definition above, had to wait because Herm and Carl wanted to try and get to 8-8, even though he is head and shoulders more talented then Huard..

Okay, kill yourself.
No way in hell Brodie Croyle is comparable talent wise to Bowe.

And even if I gave you all three...
That would be three players in 11 years.
That can't be considered common practice for this organization where there are such sharp contrasts between the starter and the more talented player behind them.

[Fish]

I'm not sure I can agree with that one...
Horn was a 5th Round pick. There wasn't the same level of expectation when he came out of college. And again, Day 2 guy.

No one knew what kind of talent Horn had until 5 years into his career.

You said comparable talent... not comparable draft position....

[Micjones]

You said comparable talent... not comparable draft position....

Who are we talking about Horn or Croyle?

[evolve27]

Is it me or the Jets, Titans, and Bucs are the few teams going apesh*t over FA? I'll leave out the Fade, they make me sick. Swing your axe through the draft Herman.

[Fish]

Who are we talking about Horn or Croyle?

I'm not making a case for either. I'm just saying you changed the qualifying attributes....

[Micjones]

I'm not making a case for either. I'm just saying you changed the qualifying attributes....

No I didn't.

Croyle's not even debatable.
Horn I don't think was as NFL ready when he was drafted.
So I struggle with that one, but it can be argued.

And again, even if I conceded all three that certainly wouldn't make for a trend.
Not over an 11-year span.

[Valiant]

Allen? Maybe... He ended up starting 10 games his rookie season though.
So was he really stifled?

Can't give you Horn.
He developed into a big time Wide Receiver.
He was a 5th Round guy. No one expected him to blossom the way he did once he left town.

Okay, kill yourself.
No way in hell Brodie Croyle is comparable talent wise to Bowe.

And even if I gave you all three...
That would be three players in 11 years.
That can't be considered common practice for this organization where there are such sharp contrasts between the starter and the more talented player behind them.

You kill your own defense.. Allen got to start because Vonnie got hurt..

Who said anything about what round you were drafted in? You certainly did not in your question.. Horn was more talented then the people ahead of him on the team and never saw the field..

Again you stated sitting behind under-qualified talent.. Each had more talent then the starters in front of them.. And comparable talent wise is opinionated, like yours even though it is off-based..

And 3 players in 11 years.. Hell you get a depth chart for each year and you will find a couple areas where less talented people are starting over others.. Contracts, politics all play a role why more talented players never see starting action unless there is an injury.. But again you only wanted one originally to prove you wrong, go dig up the depth charts for the last ten years so we can get you more..

Your thought process would not be off if it were for another franchise, but this franchise has a problem with getting a lot of the younger players to play if their is an older vet who knows the system better.. IMO it is the reasoning to try and be competitive, you are more then likely to lose with younger players learning.. That and the Chiefs want to fill seats and make a profit instead of trying to build a championship winner..