Clint Eastwood unleashes on Spike Lee

[Braincase]

Link (http://film.guardian.co.uk/interview/interviewpages/0Hello - commatard on the loose.2283921,00.html)

Dirty Harry comes clean



Clint Eastwood talks to Jeff Dawson about race, euthanasia, politicians, capital punishment - and how he really feels about the 'fascist' role that made him famous

Friday June 6, 2008
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2008/06/05/eastwood_big.jpg
'A guy like him should shut his face' - Clint Eastwood on Spike Lee. Photograph: Nicolas Guerin/Corbis



Clint Eastwood folds his gangly frame behind a clifftop table at the Hotel Du Cap, a few miles up the coast from Cannes, sighs deeply, and squints out over the Mediterranean. "Has he ever studied the history?" he asks, in that familiar near-whisper.
The "he" is Spike Lee, and the reason Eastwood is asking is because of something Lee had said about Eastwood's Iwo Jima movie Flags of Our Fathers, while promoting his own war movie, Miracle at St Anna, about a black US unit in the second world war. Lee had noted the lack of African-Americans in Eastwood's movie and told reporters: "That was his version. The negro version did not exist." Eastwood has no time for Lee's gripes. "He was complaining when I did Bird [the 1988 biopic of Charlie Parker]. Why would a white guy be doing that? I was the only guy who made it, that's why. He could have gone ahead and made it. Instead he was making something else." As for Flags of Our Fathers, he says, yes, there was a small detachment of black troops on Iwo Jima as a part of a munitions company, "but they didn't raise the flag. The story is Flags of Our Fathers, the famous flag-raising picture, and they didn't do that. If I go ahead and put an African-American actor in there, people'd go, 'This guy's lost his mind.' I mean, it's not accurate."
Lee shouldn't be demanding African-Americans in Eastwood's next picture, either. Changeling is set in Los Angeles during the Depression, before the city's make-up was changed by the large black influx. "What are you going to do, you gonna tell a ****in' story about that?" he growls. "Make it look like a commercial for an equal opportunity player? I'm not in that game. I'm playing it the way I read it historically, and that's the way it is. When I do a picture and it's 90% black, like Bird, I use 90% black people."
Eastwood pauses, deliberately - once it would have provided him with the beat in which to spit out his cheroot before flinging back his poncho - and offers a last word of advice to the most influential black director in American movies. "A guy like him should shut his face."
Eastwood knows how to handle controversy. Four years ago, his boxing flick Million Dollar Baby, which garnered him best picture and best director Oscars (giving him five in total, including two for Unforgiven and a premature lifetime achievement gong back in 1995), was attacked by Christian groups. They had objected to the plot's "assisted suicide" of a paralysed athlete. "People who hadn't even seen the movie were saying that it's pro-euthanasia, but it wasn't," Eastwood says. "If you had asked Frankie [his character in the film], 'Do you believe in euthanasia?', he'd have probably said no. But that was the circumstances of the moment. Highly dramatic circumstances."
And 37 years ago, he starred in a film that has been a bone of contention ever since, and which is the reason for our conversation today. Dirty Harry, the film that liberals have long argued was little more than an argument for summary justice, is being rereleased in DVD form, packaged with its quartet of siblings (Magnum Force, The Enforcer, Sudden Impact and The Dead Pool), as part of Warner Brothers' 85th birthday celebrations.
Dirty Harry - the story of a cop railing against bureaucracy and pursuing criminals according to his own whim - has been so imitated that it is hard to imagine the revulsion that spilled over it upon its release. The New Yorker's critic, Pauline Kael, called it "fascist", and other reviewers heaped similar scorn on it. They wondered whether holding a .44 Magnum in a suspect's face was the best way to pursue justice; they wondered whether the San Francisco setting was a slap at one of America's most liberal cities; even the CND belt buckle sported by Scorpio, the serial killer in the film, was interpreted as a swipe at the left. With the cop thriller supplanting the western as Hollywood's action genre of choice, Eastwood was surely the political as well as cinematic successor to John Wayne.
But moviegoers took little notice of those who attacked the film. They flocked to the cinemas, Dirty Harry's dialogue passed into common parlance, and it now occupies an important if uneasy place in film history.
"Of course people built a lot of connotations into the film that weren't necessarily there." Eastwood grins. "Being a contrary sort of person, I figured there had been enough politically correct crap going around. The police were not held in great favour particularly, the Miranda decisions had come down [forcing police to read arrested suspects their rights], people were thinking about the plight of the accused. I thought, 'Let's do a picture about the plight of the victim.'"
Wayne had turned the film down, as had Steve McQueen, Robert Mitchum and various others. Frank Sinatra was set to star until, according to showbiz lore, tendonitis in his wrist prevented him from handling the Magnum's heavy recoil. "Probably just bullshit," says Eastwood. But Ol' Blue Eyes' loss was Young Blue Eyes' gain. Eastwood brought director/collaborator Don Siegel to the project. And, courtesy of a much misquoted line - "You've got to ask yourself one question: do I feel lucky? Well do ya, punk?" - the picture turned Eastwood from cowboy star into everyman icon.
That same year, Eastwood directed his first film, Play Misty for Me. With Dirty Harry having established him as Warner Brothers' surest banker, he negotiated a quid pro quo: the studio would indulge his personal projects, such as Bronco Billy or Honkytonk Man, the kind of fare that would shape him as the director we know today, as long as he kept on cranking out the blockbusters, even if that meant working with an orangutan.
Sergio Leone, who directed Eastwood in his breakthrough role in the Man With No Name trilogy of spaghetti westerns, said he liked the actor because he had only two expressions: "one with the hat, one without it". These days it would be stretching it to suggest that Eastwood's range is quite that broad, his face seemingly fixed in a beatific beam, the sort of blissful countenance that once had him pegged in a scurrilous - and erroneous - piece of showbiz gossip as Stan Laurel's love child. The skin on his cheeks certainly seems tauter than one might expect of a man of his vintage. The contentment of his autumn years or the proverbial "bit of work"? Frankly, you can only wonder.
Nevertheless, he's imposingly tall (6ft 2in), sporty-lean, and could probably knock both 10 years off the 78 he has clocked up and seven bells out of anyone who messes with him, the result of relentless exercising, a strict diet and, probably, fatherhood late in life. In an arrangement at which even Ken Livingstone might raise eyebrows, Eastwood has had seven children with five different women, including an 11-year-old daughter with his current wife, Dina. It surely accounts for the emotional content of some of his recent films, not least Changeling, which had been in competition for the Palme d'Or and, like the lauded Mystic River, concerns child abduction.
There are actually echoes of Dirty Harry in Changeling, Eastwood says, and he's not making any concessions to liberals: "I get a kick out of it because the judge convicts the killer to two years in solitary confinement, and then to be hanged. In 1928 they said: 'You can spend two years thinking about it and then we're going to kill you.' Nowadays they're sitting there worrying about how putting a needle in is a cruel and unusual punishment, the same needle you would have if you had a blood test."
The politics are evidently always simmering with Eastwood. By the time Ronald Reagan was in the White House quoting Eastwood's "Go ahead, make my day" from Sudden Impact in a speech about tax cuts ("I must have heard it about 10,000 times," says Eastwood), he was shaping up to become the non-partisan mayor of the California town of Carmel, where he was sympathetic to environmental concerns and less sympathetic to big business.
Eastwood still likes to let his views be known, often forcefully. In 2005, he vowed he'd kill Michael Moore if the documentarian ever showed up at his house, the way he had doorstepped Charlton Heston in Bowling for Columbine. This March he was sacked from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's California state parks commission for objecting to the building of a toll road through a national forest. But though he has been associated in the public mind with Republican viewpoints, he's something of an individualist. "I don't pay attention to either side," he claims. "I mean, I've always been a libertarian. Leave everybody alone. Let everybody else do what they want. Just stay out of everybody else's hair. So I believe in that value of smaller government. Give politicians power and all of a sudden they'll misuse it on ya."
Has he declared for anybody in this electoral cycle? "You know, I haven't really," he says. "My wife used to be an anchorwoman in Arizona, so she knew John McCain and she liked him and I kinda liked him. In fact, we sort of supported him when he was running the first time against Bush eight years ago. But we haven't been active as yet. It's kind of a zoo out there right now. So I think I'll kinda let things percolate."
These days Eastwood doesn't really look back on his old films, though he mentions a viewing of The Outlaw Josey Wales, a film some regard as his masterpiece. He meant to watch for five minutes, but ended up sitting all the way through. "The films that I've done in recent years are the ones I remember the most," he says. "I guess I'm living in the present more than the past."
One thing he has made clear is that he will definitely not be making Dirty Harry 6, despite rumours to the contrary. "Some idiot came up with some theory," he says. The crime flick Gran Torino, which he is due to film at some point, is emphatically not part of the Dirty Harry cycle. "Not at my age," he stresses. "There are certain age limits on police officers. They'd have retired me out at 65."
But there's one film project on the cards that might interest Spike Lee. Eastwood's next project, The Human Factor, is about Nelson Mandela and how he used the country's victory in the 1995 Rugby World Cup as a means of fostering national unity. Will he be sticking with the historical record on that one? He laughs. "Yeah, I'm not going to make Nelson Mandela a white guy." · The Dirty Harry Ultimate Collector's Edition box set is released on Monday

<!--Article is not commented: 0 -->

[RNR]

Eastwood is too cool! great read thanks!

[Piper]

Very refreshing.

[Bwana]

Great read, but remember, paragraphs are your friend. :)

[kc rush]

Great read, but remember, paragraphs are your friend. :)

I second that.

[Duck Dog]

The Outlaw Josey Wales is one of my favorite movies of all time. When Clint dies it will be right in line with the passing of The Duke. Who will take their place?

[chagrin]

I agree, Spike lee should shut his face, and those like him - excellent interview and thanks for posting that. :)

[chasedude]

The Outlaw Josey Wales is one of my favorite movies of all time. When Clint dies it will be right in line with the passing of The Duke. Who will take their place?

It's a dying breed. I can't think of any icon that could take their place.

[InChiefsHeaven]

Excellent read. He's an interesting guy...

[siberian khatru]

It's a dying breed. I can't think of any icon that could take their place.

Andrew McCarthy's pretty close.

[StcChief]

Clint is a true American original, a dying breed..

He plays his roles very well.... from 60's Westerns thru Dirty Harry and Play Misty For Me etc.

Directing as well from Bird (Charlie Parker story)
Million Dollar Baby

when he's done he will be missed.

[Deberg_1990]

Clint is a true American original, a dying breed..

He plays his roles very well.... from 60's Westerns thru Dirty Harry and Play Misty For Me etc.

Directing as well from Bird (Charlie Parker story)
Million Dollar Baby

when he's done he will be missed.

Yea, i was just thinking about this the other day.

Hes actually had a pretty incredible career.

Hes made westerns, box office smashes, comedies, art house pictures. Extremely broad range. I love Clint.

As for Lee, hes a very talented guy, but he needs to learn to shut his mouth at times. He comes off very bitter towards Hollywood in general. At times hes right, but Clint is the last guy who should be attacked for the ills of Hollywood.

[Baby Lee]

As for Lee, hes a very talented guy, but he needs to learn to shut his mouth at times. He comes off very bitter towards Hollywood in general. At times hes right, but Clint is the last guy who should be attacked for the ills of Hollywood.
This didn't start with Spike Lee, there was an effort to just get a 'token' [in this case appropriate, because the black troops were artillery supply, ie a background/support position] portrayal of the black contribution when the film was made.
They weren't asking for the creation of a fictional black hero to be injected into the central story, just a glimpse or two to acknowledge that they were there and contributing to the effort.

[mesmith31]

How about . . . Now dont laugh...Christian Bale, Think 3:10 to Yuman, American Psycho, Batman, The Machinist, Rescue Dawn, You have the war movies, westerns, vigalante, he can deliver the deadpan one liners aka Clint. Just a thought

[Easy 6]

How about . . . Now dont laugh...Christian Bale, Think 3:10 to Yuman, American Psycho, Batman, The Machinist, Rescue Dawn, You have the war movies, westerns, vigalante, he can deliver the deadpan one liners aka Clint. Just a thought

He's not American...but i'd still say your right, nice choice.

[StcChief]

How about . . . Now dont laugh...Christian Bale, Think 3:10 to Yuman, American Psycho, Batman, The Machinist, Rescue Dawn, You have the war movies, westerns, vigalante, he can deliver the deadpan one liners aka Clint. Just a thoughtlet's see where he is in 40 years.:)

[Mr. Laz]

kick his ass, Clint!! :clap:

[FAX]

I'm taking Clint in a fair fight.

But given Clint's age, if it comes down to whacking with chairs and groin kicking, I suppose the edge has to go to Spike, the little bastard.

FAX

[Baby Lee]

I'm taking Clint in a fair fight.

But given Clint's age, if it comes down to whacking with chairs and groin kicking, I suppose the edge has to go to Spike, the little bastard.

FAX

It's gotta be the shoes. . .

[FAX]

It's gotta be the shoes. . .

Yep.

Still, if Clint can grab him by one of those floppy-ass shirts and get him to the ground, it's all over.

FAX

[RNR]

Yep.

Still, if Clint can grab him by one of those floppy-ass shirts and get him to the ground, it's all over.

FAX

I would lay down a hundred on the old timer

[Deberg_1990]

Where was the white version of Malcom X Spike?? Didnt he had some white assistants you could have thrown into the story some how?? :)

[Adept Havelock]

I can't think of a film Clint Eastwood made that I didn't enjoy on some level.

Even "Every Which Way but Loose".

I can't think of any other major director I can say that about.

I'm taking Clint in a fair fight.

But given Clint's age, if it comes down to whacking with chairs and groin kicking, I suppose the edge has to go to Spike, the little bastard.

FAX


My money is on Clint. If Spike resorts to underhanded tactics, I'm sure Clyde Jr. would jump in.

[RNR]

"Eastwood still likes to let his views be known, often forcefully. In 2005, he vowed he'd kill Michael Moore if the documentarian ever showed up at his house, the way he had doorstepped Charlton Heston in Bowling for Columbine."

Man I wish that dump would show up at his door!

[DJJasonp]

I've always liked Mr Eastwood....but after reading this:

Eastwood still likes to let his views be known, often forcefully. In 2005, he vowed he'd kill Michael Moore if the documentarian ever showed up at his house, the way he had doorstepped Charlton Heston in Bowling for Columbine.

I like him even more! :clap:

[R&GHomer]

Great read, but remember, paragraphs are your friend. :)

Lol... no shit, that one took me awhile to get through. Great read, Eastwood is the man

[Micjones]

I agree, Spike lee should shut his face, and those like him - excellent interview and thanks for posting that. :)

Fair enough. Now what have you to say about the Black soldiers who fought in that war that were disappointed that they weren't represented in that film?

Should they follow suit?

[Hammock Parties]

Spike Lee is a grade-A piece of racist bullshit.

[Micjones]

Spike Lee is a grade-A piece of racist bullshit.

Spike Lee never used the word "racism" or "racist" in his criticism of Eastwood.

[Hammock Parties]

Spike Lee never used the word "racism" or "racist" in his criticism of Eastwood.

I don't care. Spike Lee is trash.

[Deberg_1990]

Spike Lee is a grade-A piece of racist bullshit.

Ill pile on. Hes a horrible, horrible actor.

Everytime he shows up in a scene in one of his movies, it takes me completely out of the scene because hes awful.

He needs to stay off the screen and stay behind the camera.

[RNR]

Ill pile on. Hes a horrible, horrible actor.

Everytime he shows up in a scene in one of his movies, it takes me completely out of the scene because hes awful.

He needs to stay off the screen and stay behind the camera.

I know nothing of him, don't recall seeing any movies he was in or that he made. That said he was kinda funny in the Jordan comercials.

[vailpass]

Fair enough. Now what have you to say about the Black soldiers who fought in that war that were disappointed that they weren't represented in that film?

Should they follow suit?

Why oh why oh why oh why does everything have to turn into a frigging race thing?
The maker of a movie is free to make his movie any way he sees fit. If you read the piece you know that Clint was being as historically accurate as possible.
If you don't like it don't watch the movie but don't come walking up with your hand out like you are owed something.
You don't like how it was portrayed? Make your own movie.

[Hammock Parties]

Why oh why oh why oh why does everything have to turn into a frigging race thing?

Because of assholes like Spike Lee.

[vailpass]

Because of assholes like Spike Lee.

True enough. Throw in some Sharpton/Jackson/Farrahkan and bring to a boil in the year of Obamamania and you have quite a nice entitlement subsidized gravy train.

[Radar Chief]

The Outlaw Josey Wales is one of my favorite movies of all time.

*spit* I reck'n so.

[vailpass]

*spit* I reck'n so.

He was a marksman with that chaw. My favorite was the one he landed right on the ferryman's shirt. LMFAO.

[StcChief]

*spit* I reck'n so.nice... Josey Wales
one of the first Clint movies I saw in a theater.:clap:

[Radar Chief]

He was a marksman with that chaw. My favorite was the one he landed right on the ferryman's shirt. LMFAO.

Close.


Carpetbagger: Your young friend could use some help.
[holds up a bottle of patent medicine]
Carpetbagger: This is it... one dollar a bottle. It works wonders on wounds.
Josey Wales: Works wonders on just about everything, eh?
Carpetbagger: It can do most anything.
Josey Wales: [spits tobacco juice on the carpetbagger's coat] How is it with stains?

ROFL I love that part.

Cracked me up when he nailed Lone Watti’s dog in the forehead with it to.

[StcChief]

Close.


Carpetbagger: Your young friend could use some help.
[holds up a bottle of patent medicine]
Carpetbagger: This is it... one dollar a bottle. It works wonders on wounds.
Josey Wales: Works wonders on just about everything, eh?
Carpetbagger: It can do most anything.
Josey Wales: [spits tobacco juice on the carpetbagger's coat] How is it with stains?

ROFL I love that part.ROFL rep

[Duck Dog]

Fair enough. Now what have you to say about the Black soldiers who fought in that war that were disappointed that they weren't represented in that film?

Should they follow suit?

Why would the black soldiers be disappointed they weren't mentioned in a movie that had nothing to do with them? Are they disappointed in every WWII movie that failed to give them a cameo?

[Easy 6]

Could Clint have chosen a few black extras???...sure. But its ridiculous that Lee feels the need to trump it up in the press.

Did Spike applaud 'Bird'??? no, he whined like a bitch because a white man made it...i guess he'd have been happier were it not made at all.

Did he applaud Clint for casting Morgan Freeman in 'Unforgiven'??? no. I thought it was a bad idea because, while there certainly were blacks in the wild west...i've yet to read about even 1 black outlaw (the wild west is one of my fave subjects for reading) & it didnt make sense from the standpoint of...how many rotten as sin white outlaws in those days of extreme racism, are going to be running around with a black guy???...but Clint did it anyway.

Why did Clint have his character in 'Bridges of Madison County' take Meryl Streep to an all black jazz bar???...because he has some ax to grind???...i kinda doubt it.

I think Spike just felt the need to reclaim some spotlight, considering how his last several flics were huge flops.

Clint > Spike.

[Deberg_1990]

Could Clint have chosen a few black extras???...sure. But its ridiculous that Lee feels the need to trump it up in the press.

Did Spike applaud 'Bird'??? no, he whined like a bitch because a white man made it...i guess he'd have been happier were it not made at all.

Did he applaud Clint for casting Morgan Freeman in 'Unforgiven'??? no. I thought it was a bad idea because, while there certainly were blacks in the wild west...i've yet to read about even 1 black outlaw (the wild west is one of my fave subjects for reading) & it didnt make sense from the standpoint of...how many rotten as sin white outlaws in those days of extreme racism, are going to be running around with a black guy???...but Clint did it anyway.

Why did Clint have his character in 'Bridges of Madison County' take Meryl Streep to an all black jazz bar???...because he has some ax to grind???...i kinda doubt it.

I think Spike just felt the need to reclaim some spotlight, considering how his last several flics were huge flops.

Clint > Spike.


I once read that Mario Van Peebles (who made Heartbreak Ridge) with Clint said that Clint was one of his biggest supporters and a real inspiration to him while he was just breaking into the business.

Like i mentioned earlier, Spike is barking up the wrong tree.

[Spott]

I always found Spike Lee annoying, especially when he's watching his pathetic Knicks play all the time. The dude is 5 feet nothing and would sit in the front row and taunt the other teams players while they beat up on the Knicks.

[Hammock Parties]

Basically Spike needs to mind his own damn business. It's not his movie, he didn't contribute a dime to it, he probably didn't even pay to see it.

Spike Lee needs to shut the **** up.

[Radar Chief]

I once read that Mario Van Peebles (who made Heartbreak Ridge) with Clint said that Clint was one of his biggest supporters and a real inspiration to him while he was just breaking into the business.

Like i mentioned earlier, Spike is barking up the wrong tree.


The Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla. Ewe wee, “Stitch” Jones gonna be a rock-n-roll star.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Yeah, well, I always heard there were three kinds of suns in Kansas, sunshine, sunflowers, and sons-of-bitches.

[Radar Chief]

Yeah, well, I always heard there were three kinds of suns in Kansas, sunshine, sunflowers, and sons-of-bitches.

:clap:

[Redrum_69]

Clint Eastwood's next job should be the General Manager of the Kansas City Chiefs

[Redrum_69]

All I can say is:

Alison Eastwood....

[Duck Dog]

Clint's legacy will live forever while Spike Lee will be forgotten.

[Easy 6]

Did he applaud Clint for casting Morgan Freeman in 'Unforgiven'??? no. I thought it was a bad idea because, while there certainly were blacks in the wild west...i've yet to read about even 1 black outlaw (the wild west is one of my fave subjects for reading) & it didnt make sense from the standpoint of...how many rotten as sin white outlaws in those days of extreme racism, are going to be running around with a black guy???...but Clint did it anyway.


Ok, a google search revealed no more than 2-3 black outlaws...foremost among them was a "Ned Huddleston"...& Ned just happens to be Morgan Freemans characters name in 'Unforgiven'. Coincidence???...i think not.

[Deberg_1990]

Clint's legacy will live forever while Spike Lee will be forgotten.

No, thats a little harsh. Spike is extremely talented, he just says dumb things.

[Hammock Parties]

Spike's retarded career is built on dumb movie lines like, "Hey daddy, I'll suck your big black dick for two dollars!"

[Fire Me Boy!]

It's a dying breed. I can't think of any icon that could take their place.

Heath Ledger, I think, was well on his way. Too bad.

[Fire Me Boy!]

I can't think of a film Clint Eastwood made that I didn't enjoy on some level.

Even "Every Which Way but Loose".

I can't think of any other major director I can say that about.




Christopher Nolan, Paul Thomas Anderson. I've seen everything Nolan has made and loved every one. PTA, I've seen about half what he's done and love them all.

Neither of them have the total filmography of Eastwood, but they're a couple that came to mind.

[BIG_DADDY]

No worries. Osama will soon have us all divided equally with affirmative action and we won't have to worry about evil whitey taking all the good parts anymore.

[Tribal Warfare]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/05/clint-eastwood-spike-lee_n_105584.html


Here's Spike's reaction


UPDATE:
"First of all, the man is not my father and we're not on a plantation either," Spike Lee told ABCNEWS.com about Clint Eastwood. "He's a great director. He makes his films, I make my films. The thing about it though, I didn't personally attack him. And a comment like 'a guy like that should shut his face' -- come on Clint, come on. He sounds like an angry old man right there."

"If he wishes, I could assemble African-American men who fought at Iwo Jima and I'd like him to tell these guys that what they did was insignificant and they did not exist," he said. "I'm not making this up. I know history. I'm a student of history. And I know the history of Hollywood and its omission of the one million African-American men and women who contributed to World War II."

"Not everything was John Wayne, baby..."

"I never said he should show one of the other guys holding up the flag as black. I said that African-Americans played a significant part in Iwo Jima," he said. "For him to insinuate that I'm rewriting history and have one of the four guys with the flag be black ... no one said that. It's just that there's not one black in either film. And because I know my history, that's why I made that observation."

[Easy 6]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/05/clint-eastwood-spike-lee_n_105584.html


Here's Spike's reaction


UPDATE:
"First of all, the man is not my father and we're not on a plantation either," Spike Lee told ABCNEWS.com about Clint Eastwood. "He's a great director. He makes his films, I make my films. The thing about it though, I didn't personally attack him. And a comment like 'a guy like that should shut his face' -- come on Clint, come on. He sounds like an angry old man right there."

"If he wishes, I could assemble African-American men who fought at Iwo Jima and I'd like him to tell these guys that what they did was insignificant and they did not exist," he said. "I'm not making this up. I know history. I'm a student of history. And I know the history of Hollywood and its omission of the one million African-American men and women who contributed to World War II."

"Not everything was John Wayne, baby..."

"I never said he should show one of the other guys holding up the flag as black. I said that African-Americans played a significant part in Iwo Jima," he said. "For him to insinuate that I'm rewriting history and have one of the four guys with the flag be black ... no one said that. It's just that there's not one black in either film. And because I know my history, that's why I made that observation."

Exactly half of this sounds reasoned & intelligent...the other half?...like bullshit racebaiting & grandstanding.

First of all Spike, YOU! started this shit...dont play it off as 'Clints an angry old man'...you wanna fight Clint? hahaha...he'll hit back.

2ndly...where the F! did the 'plantation' reference come from?...Answer - his race baiting ass.

If Spike wants to talk history, he should talk about how Clint focused so heavily on Ira Hayes in 'Flags of our Fathers', the American Indian...another minority, one not NEEEAAARRRLLLYYY as well represented in these kinds of movies as blacks. F@ck off Spike.

Or, he could talk about such outstanding black American focused war movies like 'The Tuskegee Airmen', 'Glory', 'Men of Honor' & i'm sure i'm missing several...i guess thats all just 'token' BS from 'White Devil Hollywood'.

F spike & his HUGE! recent flops.

[FAX]

Clearly, Spike has gone completely nuts and is now auditioning to be Hollywood's version of Al Sharpton.

I guarantee you that if he demands that Clint be fired from his own movie, it's on baby.

FAX

[listopencil]

cill whitey.

[Frazod]

Exactly half of this sounds reasoned & intelligent...the other half?...like bullshit racebaiting & grandstanding.

First of all Spike, YOU! started this shit...dont play it off as 'Clints an angry old man'...you wanna fight Clint? hahaha...he'll hit back.

2ndly...where the F! did the 'plantation' reference come from?...Answer - his race baiting ass.

If Spike wants to talk history, he should talk about how Clint focused so heavily on Ira Hayes in 'Flags of our Fathers', the American Indian...another minority, one not NEEEAAARRRLLLYYY as well represented in these kinds of movies as blacks. F@ck off Spike.

Or, he could talk about such outstanding black American focused war movies like 'The Tuskegee Airmen', 'Glory', 'Men of Honor' & i'm sure i'm missing several...i guess thats all just 'token' BS from 'White Devil Hollywood'.

F spike & his HUGE! recent flops.

Apparently he also forgot about Clint making an entire movie about the Japanese.

I guess the only race that matters to Spike is the black one. But we already knew that.

[Easy 6]

Apparently he also forgot about Clint making an entire movie about the Japanese.

I guess the only race that matters to Spike is the black one. But we already knew that.

Ab. so. lutely.

[Frazod]

Ab. so. lutely.

Gotta feel for those poor abused multi-millionaires being kept down by The Man. LMAO

[Deberg_1990]

cill whitey.


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/acp3pQSgwS0&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/acp3pQSgwS0&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Baby Lee]

,

[StcChief]

Clearly, Spike has gone completely nuts and is now auditioning to be Hollywood's version of Al Sharpton.

I guarantee you that if he demands that Clint be fired from his own movie, it's on baby.

FAX
old saying "bad publicity is still good" keep playing the race card Spike :rolleyes:

[Deberg_1990]

Apparently he also forgot about Clint making an entire movie about the Japanese.

I guess the only race that matters to Spike is the black one. But we already knew that.


Outstanding point. Clint has a long history of working with and representing minorites in his films.

[RNR]

Ok I as a "white" guy have had enough! Guess what I could give two shits in a bucket about the plight of the black man. I have never did a f-ing thing to these people. Here is an idea go to work and get a check and get the f**k over it.

I am sorry as I am too damn busy working and paying my bills to feel guilty about whatever slight you guys feel this week! My kids are alittle busy also my son training to go back to Iraq again! to fight a war and my daughter working full time and going to school.

It blows me away that people come to this country with no money and unable to speak english, yet in a few years own homes drive nice trucks and cars. Most starting at the very bottom and working their way up to very good jobs. But wait a minute somebodys feelings got hurt again :rolleyes: I am not a racist I am just sick and tired of hearing this lame ass shit.

[Deberg_1990]

Spikes WWII movie is coming out in 4 months.

Thats his version. Clint will make the Caucasian version next year. :)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1046997/synopsis

Miracle at St. Anna chronicles the story of four black American soldiers who are members of the US Army as part of the all-black 92nd Buffalo Soldier Division stationed in Tuscany, Italy during World War II. They experience the tragedy and triumph of the war as they find themselves trapped behind enemy lines and separated from their unit after one of them risks his life to save an Italian boy

[Jenson71]

How close was the movie to the book? I haven't read the book, but it seems that would be an easy defense or attack. If there was or was not black characters in the book, why should there be or should not be any in the movie?

[Adept Havelock]

Apparently he also forgot about Clint making an entire movie about the Japanese.

I haven't seen that one yet. How was it?

[Frazod]

I haven't seen that one yet. How was it?

It was excellent; I'm in the minority that liked Flags of our Fathers better, though. I bought that on DVD. Letters from Iwo Jima is great, but it's not the type of movie I'm going to watch more than once.

[Warrior5]

How close was the movie to the book? I haven't read the book, but it seems that would be an easy defense or attack. If there was or was not black characters in the book, why should there be or should not be any in the movie?

Why didn't Spike Lee pick on Spielberg's fiction, Saving Private Ryan?

Seems he might've have had a foot to stand on there...

[FAX]

Hmmm. Who directed Cast Away? So far as I remember, there was only one guy on that island and he was WHITE!!!!!

FAX

[Tribal Warfare]

Why didn't Spike Lee pick on Spielberg's fiction, Saving Private Ryan?

Seems he might've have had a foot to stand on there...




Well he is in a way, Dreamworks is apart of the production team that funding Eastwood's film

[FAX]

And very few blacks play VOLLEYBALL!!!!

FAX

[Fire Me Boy!]

Hmmm. Who directed Cast Away? So far as I remember, there was only one guy on that island and he was WHITE!!!!!

FAX

****in' racist bastard Robert Zemeckis.

[Deberg_1990]

****in' racist bastard Robert Zemeckis.

Thats his version. The Negro version did not exist.

[FAX]

Lots of blacks are ALLERGIC to COCONUT!!!!!

FAX

[ohiobronco2]

Clint Eastwood is the man. Perhaps the most talented individual to ever come through Hollywood. He can do it all. Below, a couple of my favorite exchanges from the Dirty Harry films.

Lt. Dobbs: Are you finished with the questioning, Callahan?
Harry Callahan: Hypothetical situation, huh? All right, I'm standing on the street corner, and Mrs. Grey there comes up and propositions me. She says if I come home with her, for $5 she'll put on an exhibition with a Shetland pony...
Mrs. Grey: If this is your idea of humor, Inspector...
Lt. Dobbs: All right, what are you trying to do here, Callahan?
Harry Callahan: I'm just trying to find out if anybody in this room knows what the hell law is being broken, besides cruelty to animals.

[Harry Callahan has to explain why he shot a man]
Harry Callahan: Well, when an adult male is chasing a female with intent to commit rape, I shoot the bastard. That's my policy.
The Mayor: Intent? How did you establish that?
Harry Callahan: When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!

[irishjayhawk]

I finally read both sides to the story. I have to say, Spike Lee has a point. Further, it doesn't seem Lee's comment even resembled a personal attack. And that's kind of what Clint made his response out to be.

Clint is "the man" as people have said. But I think he's in the wrong here.

[Easy 6]

I finally read both sides to the story. I have to say, Spike Lee has a point.

Your either...

A - Full of shit.

or...

B - Pulling a Mecca & being contrarian just for the sake of it.

What possible difference would it make to see 10 seconds of a black Marine unit in action?...the STORY, is ABOUT...the men involved in the flag raising.

spike has no f#cking point & neither does your post.

[irishjayhawk]

Your either...

A - Full of shit.

or...

B - Pulling a Mecca & being contrarian just for the sake of it.

What possible difference would it make to see 10 seconds of a black Marine unit in action?...the STORY, is ABOUT...the men involved in the flag raising.

spike has no f#cking point & neither does your post.


Or C, Lee actually asked a question to which Mr. Eastwood responded with a personal attack. Mr. Eastwood could have simply answered the question. I think Mr. Lee knows that the story doesn't change and neither would Mr. Eastwood's vision. However, to say Lee doesn't have a valid question is pretty sad.

[Easy 6]

Or C, Lee actually asked a question to which Mr. Eastwood responded with a personal attack. Mr. Eastwood could have simply answered the question. I think Mr. Lee knows that the story doesn't change and neither would Mr. Eastwood's vision. However, to say Lee doesn't have a valid question is pretty sad.

spikes 'question' deserved a nasty rebuttal...because it wasnt a question, it was a firebomb meant to stir shit.

To 'question' a filmmaking visionary, who has gone OUT of his way to tell the story of various minorities in his films...is total race f@ck bullshit. spikes star is fading & he thought a good round of stirring the pot would help get him noticed again...since thats where his bread & butter has ALWAYS been.

Does EVERY war movie have to include the story of black soldiers?...yep, you guessed it...NO. Sometimes...just sometimes...it can focus on other minority groups, that dont get even CLOSE to the play that blacks do.

Like i said...f*ck 'spike' lee & his black ass.

[irishjayhawk]

spikes 'question' deserved a nasty rebuttal...because it wasnt a question, it was a firebomb meant to stir shit.

To 'question' a filmmaking visionary, who has gone OUT of his way to tell the story of various minorities in his films...is total race f@ck bullshit. spikes star is fading & he thought a good round of stirring the pot would help get him noticed again...since thats where his bread & butter has ALWAYS been.

Does EVERY war movie have to include the story of black soldiers?...yep, you guessed it...NO. Sometimes...just sometimes...it can focus on other minority groups, that dont get even CLOSE to the play that blacks do.

Like i said...f*ck 'spike' lee & his black ass.

I never said it couldn't be pot-stirring material. However, it was a question. And it could have had a response without the personal attack.

But thanks for confirming a big part of what's wrong with today's society....

[Easy 6]

But thanks for confirming a big part of what's wrong with today's society....

Oh heavens yes...i'm an integral part of keeping the black man down...i have SO much power over these things.

I'm just glad that i was able to find spikes myspace page & send him a note with a link to this thread...proudly proclaiming my message.

F&ck him, f&ck you & f&ck this CONSTANT VICTIMHOOD SYNDROME from the black community.

[kregger]

I liked the movie "Thunderbolt and Lightfoot". Clint's a bank robber and Jeff Bridges is the young sidekick. Crime and no black actors, WTF? Oh yeah, it's set in Montana. Not a lot of extras with pigmentation, I guess. Spike should check that one out while he's busy looking under stones.

[Tribal Warfare]

Somehow, this thread became a South Park manuscript ROFL

[ClevelandBronco]

Or C, Lee actually asked a question to which Mr. Eastwood responded with a personal attack. Mr. Eastwood could have simply answered the question. I think Mr. Lee knows that the story doesn't change and neither would Mr. Eastwood's vision. However, to say Lee doesn't have a valid question is pretty sad.

Mr. Lee questioned the core validity of a part of the thing to which Mr. Eastwood has devoted his life: Cinematic art. That would be seen by any creative individual as a very personal and unnecessarily public attack.

I'm assuming that you aren't well read on the history of arguments between artists. They make presidential politics look downright chummy. (BTW: I'm not trying to imply anything more than what I said. I continue to study all aspects of art. Some people aren't very interested.)

This whole exchange between Mr. Lee and Mr. Eastwood is very tame stuff.

[Deberg_1990]

f&ck this CONSTANT VICTIMHOOD SYNDROME from the black community.


Is that you Jason Whitlock?? :)

[headsnap]

Ira Hayes,
Ira Hayes

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Gather round me people there's a story I would tell
About a brave young Indian you should remember well
From the land of the Pima Indian
A proud and noble band
Who farmed the Phoenix valley in Arizona land

Down the ditches for a thousand years
The water grew Ira's peoples' crops
'Till the white man stole the water rights
And the sparklin' water stopped

Now Ira's folks were hungry
And their land grew crops of weeds
When war came, Ira volunteered
And forgot the white man's greed

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

There they battled up Iwo Jima's hill,
Two hundred and fifty men
But only twenty-seven lived to walk back down again

And when the fight was over
And when Old Glory raised
Among the men who held it high
Was the Indian, Ira Hayes

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Ira returned a hero
Celebrated through the land
He was wined and speeched and honored; Everybody shook his hand

But he was just a Pima Indian
No water, no crops, no chance
At home nobody cared what Ira'd done
And when did the Indians dance

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Then Ira started drinkin' hard;
Jail was often his home
They'd let him raise the flag and lower it
like you'd throw a dog a bone!

He died drunk one mornin'
Alone in the land he fought to save
Two inches of water in a lonely ditch
Was a grave for Ira Hayes

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Yeah, call him drunken Ira Hayes
But his land is just as dry
And his ghost is lyin' thirsty
In the ditch where Ira died

[irishjayhawk]

Mr. Lee questioned the core validity of a part of the thing to which Mr. Eastwood has devoted his life: Cinematic art. That would be seen by any creative individual as a very personal and unnecessarily public attack.

I'm assuming that you aren't well read on the history of arguments between artists. They make presidential politics look downright chummy. (BTW: I'm not trying to imply anything more than what I said. I continue to study all aspects of art. Some people aren't very interested.)

This whole exchange between Mr. Lee and Mr. Eastwood is very tame stuff.

I don't think he questioned the core validity of Mr. Eastwood's art. He even admits it was Eastwood's vision. He just asked a question. I don't think it's out of the question to answer it. Instead we just get "people like him should shut his face".

I understand it's tame. I'm just saying Mr. Eastwood is in the wrong with his response to a legitimate question.

[FAX]

Prop things to you, Mr. irishjayhawk, for keeping the tone of the conversation civilized.

One way to look at Spike's deal, though, is that those kinds of "legitimate questions" are loaded with subtext. "Why no black people in your movie?" The inference is pretty clear. Besides, Clint is an old guy, now. I'll bet that if he was in his lounger and you walked in front of the tv, he'd throw a beer can at you. And, for God's sake, don't hide his remote.

Spike should show respect and leave Clint to his own decisions, in my view.

FAX

[ChieflySpeaking]

I don't think he questioned the core validity of Mr. Eastwood's art. He even admits it was Eastwood's vision. He just asked a question. I don't think it's out of the question to answer it. Instead we just get "people like him should shut his face".

I understand it's tame. I'm just saying Mr. Eastwood is in the wrong with his response to a legitimate question.


Spike Lee wants one thing and that is to bring attention to himself so he can stay in the limelight. Attacking a Hollywood legend at the Cannes film festival is a good way to get people talking about you. It's all ego centric bull**it.

[Logical]

spikes 'question' deserved a nasty rebuttal...because it wasnt a question, it was a firebomb meant to stir shit.

To 'question' a filmmaking visionary, who has gone OUT of his way to tell the story of various minorities in his films...is total race f@ck bullshit. spikes star is fading & he thought a good round of stirring the pot would help get him noticed again...since thats where his bread & butter has ALWAYS been.

Does EVERY war movie have to include the story of black soldiers?...yep, you guessed it...NO. Sometimes...just sometimes...it can focus on other minority groups, that dont get even CLOSE to the play that blacks do.

Like i said...f*ck 'spike' lee & his black ass.Woah, back up that resentment train and seek some help.

[BIG_DADDY]

Woah, back up that resentment train and seek some help.

What?

[FAX]

I just realized something. I don't think there were any black folks in Spiderman II.

FAX

[little jacob]

this reminds me of that photo of three firefighters on 9/11 that was going to be a statue or something and people complained because they were all white. they wanted two of them changed in the statue to black and hispanic. gosh, sorry that photo wasn't PC enough but it's a photo. it showed what really happened.

[Easy 6]

Woah, back up that resentment train and seek some help.

I dont give a hot flying damn what you think, you've never liked me & its certainly mutual.

[BIG_DADDY]

this reminds me of that photo of three firefighters on 9/11 that was going to be a statue or something and people complained because they were all white. they wanted two of them changed in the statue to black and hispanic. gosh, sorry that photo wasn't PC enough but it's a photo. it showed what really happened.

What a bunch of bleeding vagina's we are becoming.

[Easy 6]

Prop things to you, Mr. irishjayhawk, for keeping the tone of the conversation civilized.


Your right Mr. FAX, i got a 'lil volatile there at the end.

But, between countering what i feel is an unjustified attack on one of my all time faves, the buzz i had going at the time & the fact that jayhawk never quotes/interacts with me...unless...its to refute me, i got a 'lil testy.

If he had ever once acted a different way with me, i'm sure i would have been more tactful...but persistent antagonism is sure to bring out my worst.

[ClevelandBronco]

I don't think he questioned the core validity of Mr. Eastwood's art. He even admits it was Eastwood's vision. He just asked a question. I don't think it's out of the question to answer it. Instead we just get "people like him should shut his face".

I understand it's tame. I'm just saying Mr. Eastwood is in the wrong with his response to a legitimate question.

I understand your viewpoint, but — as usual — I'm not persuaded by it.

[Deberg_1990]

I don't think he questioned the core validity of Mr. Eastwood's art. He even admits it was Eastwood's vision. He just asked a question. I don't think it's out of the question to answer it. Instead we just get "people like him should shut his face".

I understand it's tame. I'm just saying Mr. Eastwood is in the wrong with his response to a legitimate question.

Im pretty sure that Clint knew Spike was trying to race bait him. Spike has a long history of this.

Then Spike comes back with the "Plantation" reference. WTF??? That was uncalled for.

[HonestChieffan]

Spike Lee is like 98% of Hollywierd people...hes a liberal kneejerk moron

[redbrian]

I don't think he questioned the core validity of Mr. Eastwood's art. He even admits it was Eastwood's vision. He just asked a question. I don't think it's out of the question to answer it. Instead we just get "people like him should shut his face".

I understand it's tame. I'm just saying Mr. Eastwood is in the wrong with his response to a legitimate question.

Yes it’s much better to have revisionist history so everyone feels good, than to try and tell an accurate story (note sarcasm utilized)….was the black unit germane to Mr. Eastwood’s story…..it appears that Mr. Eastwood did not think so, as is evidence by the lack of that unit being used in the story line…should Mr. Eastwood have altered his story line just to throw a bone to the black community….I don’t think so, that is pandering in it’s worst form…...

[FAX]

Your right Mr. FAX, i got a 'lil volatile there at the end.

But, between countering what i feel is an unjustified attack on one of my all time faves, the buzz i had going at the time & the fact that jayhawk never quotes/interacts with me...unless...its to refute me, i got a 'lil testy.

If he had ever once acted a different way with me, i'm sure i would have been more tactful...but persistent antagonism is sure to bring out my worst.

Don't get me wrong, Mr. scott free. I certainly didn't think your posts were out of line. Nor did I intend to imply anything of the sort.

The fact is that I see no reason not to be outraged by Spike's statement. But, it's his hairdo that really pisses me off.

FAX

[KCTitus]

Clint was right.

[Logical]

I dont give a hot flying damn what you think, you've never liked me & its certainly mutual.
LOL I have never disliked you in fact for a long time I thought you were just a silly alter ego of the Senator. I guess I now no you dislike me though.:doh!:

[irishjayhawk]

Yes it’s much better to have revisionist history so everyone feels good, than to try and tell an accurate story (note sarcasm utilized)….was the black unit germane to Mr. Eastwood’s story…..it appears that Mr. Eastwood did not think so, as is evidence by the lack of that unit being used in the story line…should Mr. Eastwood have altered his story line just to throw a bone to the black community….I don’t think so, that is pandering in it’s worst form…...

I didn't say what Eastwood should or should not have done. I have only commented on how he responded to such a question - intent/baiting aside. He could have simply explained that "in his story there wasn't a need for racial issues, though they may have been prevalent in other WWII stories." But he didn't. He chose the shut your pie hole option instead.

And that's why I fault Mr. Eastwood more than Lee. It just seems that people dislike Mr. Lee for his previous argumentative and controversial films and statements.

[FAX]

And his hairdo. Don't forget the hairdo, Mr. irishjayhawk. Some of us dislike him for that.

FAX

[irishjayhawk]

And his hairdo. Don't forget the hairdo, Mr. irishjayhawk. Some of us dislike him for that.

FAX

Gotta agree there. At least back in the day.

[Deberg_1990]

I didn't say what Eastwood should or should not have done. I have only commented on how he responded to such a question - intent/baiting aside. He could have simply explained that "in his story there wasn't a need for racial issues, though they may have been prevalent in other WWII stories." But he didn't. He chose the shut your pie hole option instead.

And that's why I fault Mr. Eastwood more than Lee. It just seems that people dislike Mr. Lee for his previous argumentative and controversial films and statements.

Perhaps, but it sounds like Eastwood has had gripes with Spike in the past. Its probably just something that had seethed up inside of him for awhile and he unloaded a little bit. Cant fault him for that.



"He was complaining when I did Bird [the 1988 biopic of Charlie Parker]. Why would a white guy be doing that? I was the only guy who made it, that's why. He could have gone ahead and made it. Instead he was making something else."


Its too bad Spike has to lower himself like this at times. Hes a first class filmaker, but he says some ignorant things.

[irishjayhawk]

Perhaps, but it sounds like Eastwood has had gripes with Spike in the past. Its probably just something that had seethed up inside of him for awhile and he unloaded a little bit. Cant fault him for that.

I might buy that if he'd prefaced it. But since no one knows, it seems like an awfully bad response to a legitimate question.


"He was complaining when I did Bird [the 1988 biopic of Charlie Parker]. Why would a white guy be doing that? I was the only guy who made it, that's why. He could have gone ahead and made it. Instead he was making something else."

Perhaps there was, but then again, perhaps Lee had got the rights to the film but couldn't do it "fast" enough so they gave it to Eastwood. Seems plausible. And it's as plausible as any of their other unknown background feuds.


Its too bad Spike has to lower himself like this at times. Hes a first class filmaker, but he says some ignorant things.

Any PR is good PR. And Spike wouldn't be nearly as influential if he wasn't so controversial. And I wouldn't say this is an "ignorant" thing.

[KcMizzou]

And his hairdo. Don't forget the hairdo, Mr. irishjayhawk. Some of us dislike him for that.

FAXAnd some of us were Pacer fans during the Reggie Miller era...

Reggie Miller > Spike Lee

[J Diddy]

And some of us were Pacer fans during the Reggie Miller era...

Reggie Miller > Spike Lee


my left nut >Spike Lee

[KC Kings]

Ok, a google search revealed no more than 2-3 black outlaws...foremost among them was a "Ned Huddleston"...& Ned just happens to be Morgan Freemans characters name in 'Unforgiven'. Coincidence???...i think not.

Maybe notorious black outlaws, but there had to be more than 2-3. There was a cowboy documentary on PBS HD a while back that said of all of the cowboys in America, 1/3rd were white, 1/3rd were Hispanic, and 1/3rd were black.

http://federationofblackcowboysnyc.com/page/history2.html

[HonestChieffan]

And his hairdo. Don't forget the hairdo, Mr. irishjayhawk. Some of us dislike him for that.

FAX

I think his hair style is actually a form of communication that "they" know and we don't.

[Easy 6]

Maybe notorious black outlaws, but there had to be more than 2-3. There was a cowboy documentary on PBS HD a while back that said of all of the cowboys in America, 1/3rd were white, 1/3rd were Hispanic, and 1/3rd were black.

http://federationofblackcowboysnyc.com/page/history2.html


I'm well aware of blacks contributions to the old west...but cowboy does not equal outlaw. If there were more than 2-3, not a thing is known about them.

[KC Kings]

I'm well aware of blacks contributions to the old west...but cowboy does not equal outlaw. If there were more than 2-3, not a thing is known about them.

So either black cowboys were an extremely honest bunch, or they had just as many outlaws as their white counterparts, but just weren't as notorious. There were nearly 50 members of the Jesse James Gang, but less than 10 of them were familiar to me. Just because you don't hear about the other 40 members doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

Most outlaws that were glorified were white, but most outlaws in general were Mexican.
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-OutlawList.html

[Easy 6]

So either black cowboys were an extremely honest bunch, or they had just as many outlaws as their white counterparts, but just weren't as notorious. There were nearly 50 members of the Jesse James Gang, but less than 10 of them were familiar to me. Just because you don't hear about the other 40 members doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

Most outlaws that were glorified were white, but most outlaws in general were Mexican.
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-OutlawList.html

I have a few ideas on why there seem to have been very few black outlaws...

1) Given the extreme racism of the day, its very hard to envision too many white outlaws being willing to accept a black in their midst. While those outlaw whites lived unconventional lives, they were also undoubtedly raised with the racial views of that day.

2) The very rough justice of the day...if a white guy was gonna get in trouble, a black was REALLY gonna get it. I'm willing to bet that most blacks who managed to escape slavery to/be freed & make their way west, wanted no part of that kind of trouble...they prolly just wanted to live their lives in peace.

Of course, those are just my ideas...but based on what we DO know, i stand by my take.

[Micjones]

I don't care. Spike Lee is trash.

This tells me all I need to know.

[vailpass]

This tells me all I need to know.

Are you such and advocate of Spike because of his actions or because of his skin color?

[InChiefsHeaven]

Is it just me, or does it seem kind of funny for people to be arguing FOR the idea of black outlaws of the old west...:spock:

[Micjones]

Why oh why oh why oh why does everything have to turn into a frigging race thing?

I'm guessing because it involves people of different races?
:shrug:

The maker of a movie is free to make his movie any way he sees fit. If you read the piece you know that Clint was being as historically accurate as possible.

You just can't take liberties with films that depict historical events.

[vailpass]

I'm guessing because it involves people of different races?
:shrug:



You just can't take liberties with films that depict historical events.

No it doesn't. It involves Clint's movie. It didn't turn into a race thing until Spike Sharpton played the" why aint there no black folks in da movie?" card.


You know why? Because the director didn't include any. Why are Spike's movies so full of black people? Becasue he wants them to be.
Quit coming around with your hand out asking for things. If you don't like how they are done do it yourself the way you want. This is America.

BTW, your supposition that you can't interpret historical events in a movie any way you want is laughable and wrong. Unless that movie is called a pure documentary it is open to any interpretation the film maker desires. Move on, get over your fight against whitey.

[Micjones]

True enough. Throw in some Sharpton/Jackson/Farrahkan and bring to a boil in the year of Obamamania and you have quite a nice entitlement subsidized gravy train.

You guys realize that Eastwood was criticized for the absence of Black soldiers in BOTH films by mostly White historians and media members a roughly two years before Spike Lee opened his mouth, right?

Oh wait...

You guys don't trouble yourselves with silly stuff like facts...

[vailpass]

You guys realize that Eastwood was criticized for the absence of Black soldiers in BOTH films by mostly White historians and media members a full two years before Spike Lee opened his mouth, right?

Oh wait...

You guys don't trouble yourselves with silly stuff like facts...

You don't get it do you? A film maker can make his films any way he wants. They aren't text books or sold as pure documentary.
Quit playing the race card. Who cares if there were black people in the movie or not? What matters is whether they are good movies, which they certainly were.
It seems like you are trying to put a quota in place where a movie has to have a certain number of blacks in it if there might have been blacks involved in the historical event.
Wrong.
Take your affirmative action and pack it.

[Micjones]

No it doesn't. It involves Clint's movie. It didn't turn into a race thing until Spike Sharpton played the" why aint there no black folks in da movie?" card.

I'm never surprised by how misinformed some of you are.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/20/usa.film

Dan Glaister... 10/20/06
A very White journalist. Close to 2 years ago.

This really is embarrassing.

Why are Spike's movies so full of black people?

Are you really this slow?
Iwo Jima and WWII are real events.
You can't twist the truth about that period in American history for the sake of making a motion picture. If it's accuracy you're interested in... Why would you?

There's a difference between the cast construction based on a true story and one that's purely fictional. Cast who you want when the story is written, but when there's historical data behind it you can't cherry-pick the cast.

Besides... Lee's films have always been comprised of non-Black actors.
John Turtorro's been in 8, count them 8, of Spike's pictures.

Do you have any interest in the facts or are you just babbling?

Quit coming around with your hand out asking for things. If you don't like how they are done do it yourself the way you want. This is America.

What is Spike Lee asking Eastwood for?
Your bias and predjudices are really bleeding through this issue.

[ohiobronco2]

You guys realize that Eastwood was criticized for the absence of Black soldiers in BOTH films by mostly White historians and media members a full two years before Spike Lee opened his mouth, right?

Oh wait...

You guys don't trouble yourselves with silly stuff like facts...

:rolleyes: I don't want to call you a racist, so would you please explain why you keep refering to certain individuals as "You Guys".

[Micjones]

You don't get it do you? A film maker can make his films any way he wants. They aren't text books or sold as pure documentary.

Why does having an accurate representation of the parties involved in those events have to constitute a documentary? Of course there are theatrical elements.

Quit playing the race card. Who cares if there were black people in the movie or not? What matters is whether they are good movies, which they certainly were.

You don't care. And traditionally Hollywood doesn't care, but when discussions like these arise it's THOSE PEOPLE who want to throw the word "racist" around. Hypocrites...

It seems like you are trying to put a quota in place where a movie has to have a certain number of blacks in it if there might have been blacks involved in the historical event.

This is hilarious. You seem to be standing in opposition to the film being accurate. Even when that's the word Eastwood, himself, has thrown around.

Wrong.
Take your affirmative action and pack it.

What on Earth does this have to do with Affirmative Action?
And please don't bark up that tree... AA benefits quite a few folks that look like you. I don't think you want to have that discussion. Not with me anyway.

[Micjones]

:rolleyes: I don't want to call you a racist, so would you please explain why you keep refering to certain individuals as "You Guys".

I was referring to Vailpass and Claythan.
Don't waste time concerning yourself with the topic at hand though.
Keep digging...

[Micjones]

Are you such and advocate of Spike because of his actions or because of his skin color?

I'm an advocate of Spike challenging Eastwood on this issue.

I also happen to be a big fan of Spike's films.
Don't question my integrity sir. I don't run around defending the actions of people simply because they look like myself.

Furthermore, that isn't exactly native to folk who look like myself either...
People of all races explain away the actions of those they share a skin color with.

[ohiobronco2]

I'm never surprised by how misinformed some of you are.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/20/usa.film

Dan Glaister... 10/20/06
A very White journalist. Close to 2 years ago.

This really is embarrassing.



Are you really this slow?
Iwo Jima and WWII are real events.
You can't twist the truth about that period in American history for the sake of making a motion picture. If it's accuracy you're interested in... Why would you?

There's a difference between the cast construction based on a true story and one that's purely fictional. Cast who you want when the story is written, but when there's historical data behind it you can't cherry-pick the cast.

Besides... Lee's films have always been comprised of non-Black actors.
John Turtorro's been in 8, count them 8, of Spike's pictures.
Do you have any interest in the facts or are you just babbling?



What is Spike Lee asking Eastwood for?
Your bias and predjudices are really bleeding through this issue.

Good, thanks for pointing out the double standard. It's okay for Lee to have casts that consist primarily of black actors (Because they are fictional?), but Eastwood is not afforded the same liberties (Because his work is non fictional?). I see your point, it is consistency which makes one a racist in this country. Lee, consistenly makes work of fiction and doesn't employ many white actors, but Eastwood who has made a wide array of films, only "occasionally" employs black actors and is therefore a racist. Get real. As Eastwood has already pointed out, "yes, there was a small detachment of black troops on Iwo Jima as a part of a munitions company, "but they didn't raise the flag. The story is Flags of Our Fathers." Lee is only doing this to promote his film. He's a scum bag, there are other means to raise attention for his movie, but this is the route he takes.

[ohiobronco2]

I'm an advocate of Spike challenging Eastwood on this issue.
I also happen to be a big fan of Spike's films.
Don't question my integrity sir. I don't run around defending the actions of people simply because they look like myself.

Furthermore, that isn't exactly native to folk who look like myself either...
People of all races explain away the actions of those they share a skin color with.

There is no issue. Eastwood explained why he didn't have any black actors in this film. Perhaps you happen to be seeing this issue differently because of your professed love of for Spike Lee.

[vailpass]

Why does having an accurate representation of the parties involved in those events have to constitute a documentary? Of course there are theatrical elements.



You don't care. And traditionally Hollywood doesn't care, but when discussions like these arise it's THOSE PEOPLE who want to throw the word "racist" around. Hypocrites...



This is hilarious. You seem to be standing in opposition to the film being accurate. Even when that's the word Eastwood, himself, has thrown around.



What on Earth does this have to do with Affirmative Action?
And please don't bark up that tree... AA benefits quite a few folks that look like you. I don't think you want to have that discussion. Not with me anyway.

Do you agree or disagree that a film maker is free to make his/her film any way they see fit?
The rest of your words are thin disguise for the fact you want to force a private film maker into making his movie the way you want to see it.

As to your comments on affirmative racism (AA): it is nothing more than welfare and foodstamps disguised as a hand up.

[vailpass]

I'm an advocate of Spike challenging Eastwood on this issue.

I also happen to be a big fan of Spike's films.
Don't question my integrity sir. I don't run around defending the actions of people simply because they look like myself.

Furthermore, that isn't exactly native to folk who look like myself either...
People of all races explain away the actions of those they share a skin color with.

In your first paragraph you say you aren't doing it. In your second you say why it's okay that you are doing it.

Got ya'.

[KC Kings]

You guys realize that Eastwood was criticized for the absence of Black soldiers in BOTH films by mostly White historians and media members a roughly two years before Spike Lee opened his mouth, right?

Oh wait...

You guys don't trouble yourselves with silly stuff like facts...


Waaaaaaahhhh! :deevee:

[Micjones]

Good, thanks for pointing out the double standard. It's okay for Lee to have casts that consist primarily of black actors (Because they are fictional?), but Eastwood is not afforded the same liberties (Because his work is non fictional?).

You aren't smart enough to try and twist my commentary.
I've said already that even in Spike's fictional works he's employed non-Black actors. Many of them. Turtorro's been in more of Spike's films than anyone not named Joie Lee (Spike's sister). He's appeared in 8 of Spike's films.

I hold Spike to the same standard.
Spike could never have made "X" without White actors and extras.
And he didn't.

I see your point, it is consistency which makes one a racist in this country. Lee, consistenly makes work of fiction and doesn't employ many white actors, but Eastwood who has made a wide array of films, only "occasionally" employs black actors and is therefore a racist.

You undo your own arguments. No one ever accused Clint Eastwood a racist.
I said as much earlier in this very thread.

As Eastwood has already pointed out, "yes, there was a small detachment of black troops on Iwo Jima as a part of a munitions company, "but they didn't raise the flag.

Black troops did not assist in the flag raising, but they played a significant role in it. Ask Sgt. Thomas McPhatter, the former US Marine, who gave a piece of pipe (to help with mounting) to the man who raised the first flag. Oddly, also absent from the film.

The story is Flags of Our Fathers." Lee is only doing this to promote his film. He's a scum bag, there are other means to raise attention for his movie, but this is the route he takes.

God knows a filmmaker of Spike's stature needs to raise a legitimate issue about Eastwood's film. His work doesn't speak for itself.
:rolleyes:

[Micjones]

In your first paragraph you say you aren't doing it. In your second you say why it's okay that you are doing it.

Got ya'.

I said definitively that I was not defending Spike Lee simply because he was also Black. That should end that discussion. But when your arguments fail you...You fall back on punchless tactics like these.

[Micjones]

Do you agree or disagree that a film maker is free to make his/her film any way they see fit?

Where it concerns historical events...
Absolutely not. And that, sir, goes for Spike Lee as well.

As to your comments on affirmative racism (AA): it is nothing more than welfare and foodstamps disguised as a hand up.

You're right.
Affirmative Action has never helped White women.
:rolleyes:

[Fire Me Boy!]

irish, typically, we agree. Here's my take - I think it's fairly obvious that while Spike's comment was a question, I think Spike's intent was also obvious.

Like most, when a question is asked and there is a perceived intent, it's natural to address the intent rather than the question.

That said, I'll readily admit that I do not like Spike Lee as a filmmaker or a person. I think as a filmmaker he is mediocre AT BEST. As a person he's a racist bigot.

That's my view, garnered through watching a clear majority of the movies he has made and through reading and viewing various interviews with the man. And I fully recognize that my perceived intent in his questioning of Eastwood may be skewed by my feelings about the man.

[Micjones]

Waaaaaaahhhh! :deevee:

Poignant.

[Micjones]

That said, I'll readily admit that I do not like Spike Lee as a filmmaker or a person. I think as a filmmaker he is mediocre AT BEST. As a person he's a racist bigot.

I'm more upset that you think he's a mediocre filmmaker.
:D

That's my view, garnered through watching a clear majority of the movies he has made and through reading and viewing various interviews with the man. And I fully recognize that my perceived intent in his questioning of Eastwood may be skewed by my feelings about the man.

At least you're man enough to admit that.

[vailpass]

Where it concerns historical events...
Absolutely not. And that, sir, goes for Spike Lee as well.



You're right.
Affirmative Action has never helped White women.
:rolleyes:

WTF? Every single film is subject to directorial interpretation unless it is presented as educational material.
Quit asking for hand outs and go make your own movie the way you want it to be made.

[Fire Me Boy!]

I'm more upset that you think he's a mediocre filmmaker.
:D

At least you're man enough to admit that.

Of all the movies I've seen of Spike's, LITERALLY there are two worth watching... one worth owning. And I own some crap. Battlefield Earth... Superman 4...

Of course, my humble opinion.

[Baby Lee]

Where it concerns historical events...
Absolutely not. And that, sir, goes for Spike Lee as well.
Problem is, you need to critique the accuracy of a historical film on the accuracy of the story it tells, not the story it doesn't tell. Every man, woman and child in the Asian theater has a story to tell about Iwo Jima. To posit that not referencing the 'black story' is more egregious than any other omission is pretty biased.

[Micjones]

WTF? Every single film is subject to directorial interpretation unless it is presented as educational material.

Really? Then why is Clint Eastwood so put off by the idea of depicting one of the flag-raising troops as an African-American soldier? Why did he use the word accuracy?

Sure, if you want to make films that take no thought of the real and true aspects of historical events... By all means. But if it's accuracy that you're interested in, like Eastwood claims to be, then your cast should be reflective of that.

Quit asking for hand outs and go make your own movie the way you want it to be made.

Your uninformed commentary explains why you think Black people are asking for handouts. I have no interest in filmmaking. I'm not asking for anything. I'm guessing a director of Spike Lee's stature isn't either.

[Micjones]

Of all the movies I've seen of Spike's, LITERALLY there are two worth watching... one worth owning. And I own some crap. Battlefield Earth... Superman 4...

Of course, my humble opinion.

I can dig it FMB. Ultimately it comes down to personal taste.
I'm kinda curious as to which Spike Lee films you've seen though.

[Micjones]

Problem is, you need to critique the accuracy of a historical film on the accuracy of the story it tells, not the story it doesn't tell.

You can't abbreviate the real and true aspects of that event and then turn-around and use a word like accuracy. No one suggested that the "story" of Black troops in IJ be told. Lee simply suggested that their presence be acknowledged in at least one of the two films that Eastwood made.

Every man, woman and child in the Asian theater has a story to tell about Iwo Jima. To posit that not referencing the 'black story' is more egregious than any other omission is pretty biased.

I never mentioned the "Black story". I'm talking about the presence and the contributions of Black troops. Which has historically been overlooked in Hollywood.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Inside Man and 25th Hour were pretty good but other than that not really much there. Pretty overrated.

[Micjones]

Inside Man and 25th Hour were pretty good but other than that not really much there. Pretty overrated.

I loved "Inside Man". Rumor has it that there's a sequel coming down the pike.

[vailpass]

Really? Then why is Clint Eastwood so put off by the idea of depicting one of the flag-raising troops as an African-American soldier? Why did he use the word accuracy?

Sure, if you want to make films that take no thought of the real and true aspects of historical events... By all means. But if it's accuracy that you're interested in, like Eastwood claims to be, then your cast should be reflective of that.



Your uninformed commentary explains why you think Black people are asking for handouts. I have no interest in filmmaking. I'm not asking for anything. I'm guessing a director of Spike Lee's stature isn't either.

Spike Lee's stature? That short-assed brother couldn't lick my boots without a step stool.

[Baby Lee]

You can't abbreviate the real and true aspects of that event and then turn-around and use a word like accuracy. No one suggested that the "story" of Black troops in IJ be told. Lee simply suggested that their presence be acknowledged in at least one of the two films that Eastwood made.



I never mentioned the "Black story". I'm talking about the presence and the contributions of Black troops. Which has historically been overlooked in Hollywood.

Every recounting short of omniscience is an abbreviation of real and true aspects.

Look at it this way, suppose it was technicologically possible to go back and confirm the accuracy of every frame of Clint's film, and indeed, the placement of every man, munition, rock and blade of grass was spot on, and indeed, as Clint framed the action, indeed no black person entered the frame.
You now have a metaphysically accurate recounting of events, and you are harping on one aspects of the billions of other POVs and alternative stories, not reflected onscreen.

[Micjones]

Spike Lee's stature? That short-assed brother couldn't lick my boots without a step stool.

Say what you'd like about Lee, but he's one of the greatest filmmakers of the last 20 years.

[Micjones]

Every recounting short of omniscience is an abbreviation of real and true aspects.

Eastwood had to be omniscient to include 1 Black extra in either of the Iwo Jima films?
:shrug:

Spike Lee isn't holding Eastwood accountable for aspects of the historical events that he did not know about. Or even the aspects of the historical events that aren't widely known.

Eastwood was told and knew exactly what the contributions of Black troops was in IJ.

[vailpass]

Say what you'd like about Lee, but he's one of the greatest filmmakers of the last 20 years.

ROFL

[Fire Me Boy!]

I can dig it FMB. Ultimately it comes down to personal taste.
I'm kinda curious as to which Spike Lee films you've seen though.

Inside Man (2006) - meh
She Hate Me (2004) - puke
25th Hour (2002) - excellent
Come Rain or Come Shine (2001) -meh
Bamboozled (2000) - puke
The Original Kings of Comedy (2000) - meh
Summer of Sam (1999) - puke/god freakin' awful
He Got Game (1998) - meh
4 Little Girls (1997)- meh
Girl 6 (1996) - meh
Lumière et compagnie (1995) - his segment was the worst
Clockers (1995) - meh
Crooklyn (1994) - meh
Malcolm X (1992) - decent
Jungle Fever (1991) - good
Mo' Better Blues (1990) - meh
Do the Right Thing (1989) - meh
School Daze (1988) - meh

[Fire Me Boy!]

Say what you'd like about Lee, but he's one of the greatest filmmakers of the last 20 years.

Not making an affront to you, Micjones, but this is laughable, from a strictly academic point of view. Personal tastes aside, as best I can.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Inside Man (2006) - meh
She Hate Me (2004) - puke
25th Hour (2002) - excellent
Come Rain or Come Shine (2001) -meh
Bamboozled (2000) - puke
The Original Kings of Comedy (2000) - meh
Summer of Sam (1999) - puke/god freakin' awful
He Got Game (1998) - meh
4 Little Girls (1997)- meh
Girl 6 (1996) - meh
Lumière et compagnie (1995) - his segment was the worst
Clockers (1995) - meh
Crooklyn (1994) - meh
Malcolm X (1992) - decent
Jungle Fever (1991) - good
Mo' Better Blues (1990) - meh
Do the Right Thing (1989) - meh
School Daze (1988) - meh

After looking at his filmography, I didn't realize he'd done as much TV as he has. I don't think I've seen anything he's done for that medium.

[Baby Lee]

Eastwood had to be omniscient to include 1 Black extra in either of the Iwo Jima films?
:shrug:

Spike Lee isn't holding Eastwood accountable for aspects of the historical events that he did not know about. Or even the aspects of the historical events that aren't widely known.

Eastwood was told and knew exactly what the contributions of Black troops was in IJ.
You're not comprehending the point, the RECOUNTING has to be omniscient, ie, ALL seeing, in order to be complete, not the director.

[Demonpenz]

I can think of about 20 directers better than spike

[Micjones]

Not making an affront to you, Micjones, but this is laughable, from a strictly academic point of view. Personal tastes aside, as best I can.

We can agree to disagree.
I don't think there's any question that he's one of the very best filmmakers in the last 20 years.

[Micjones]

I can think of about 20 directers better than spike

Not in the last 20 years you can't.

[Micjones]

You're not comprehending the point, the RECOUNTING has to be omniscient, ie, ALL seeing, in order to be complete, not the director.

I got the point. And again... It doesn't get Eastwood off the hook.
The director, himself, had to enlist the help of a handful of Black extras to have avoided the criticisms hurled at him by White historians and media members 2 years ago.

[Fire Me Boy!]

We can agree to disagree.
I don't think there's any question that he's one of the very best filmmakers in the last 20 years.

To make films in the last 20 years, or to have started in the last 20? To have started even blows Lee out of the water - his first film was 31 years ago (Last Hustle in Brooklyn [1977]). His first notable film was 22 years ago (She's Gotta Have It [1986]).

If we're going with "to have made films in the last 20 years" I can easily come up with 20 off the top of my head that both critically and publicly have had a greater impact.

And just so you know, I'm not being obstinant. I do enjoy a good debate about movies.

[Fire Me Boy!]

To show that I'm taking personal preference out of this argument, some of the people I'd put above Lee include some of most-hated... but they're simply better storytellers and directors.

[Micjones]

To make films in the last 20 years, or to have started in the last 20? To have started even blows Lee out of the water - his first film was 31 years ago (Last Hustle in Brooklyn [1977]). His first notable film was 22 years ago (She's Gotta Have It [1986]).

LHIB was a university film. Can we really count that one?
And you're right. SGHI is outside of the 20 year range.
So let's broaden it a bit... I think he's still one of the best directors of the last 30 years.

If we're going with "to have made films in the last 20 years" I can easily come up with 20 off the top of my head that both critically and publicly have had a greater impact.

I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find 20 better filmmakers to have started in the last 30 years, but by all means... Have at it.

And just so you know, I'm not being obstinant. I do enjoy a good debate about movies.

Sure, sure. I understand. No problem at all. I enjoy them too.

[Fire Me Boy!]

No particular order:

1. Joel & Ethan Coen
2. Christopher Nolan
3. Paul Thomas Anderson
4. Steven Soderbergh
5. Bryan Singer
6. David Fincher
7. Mel Gibson
8. Pedro Almodóvar
9. John Lasseter
10. Quentin Tarantino
11. Michael Moore
12. Barry Levinson
13. Spike Jonze
14. Ang Lee
15. Wes Anderson
16. Alexander Payne
17. Gus Van Sant
18. Kevin Smith
19. Alejandro Amenábar
20. Oliver Stone
21. Michael Winterbottom
22. Robert Redford
23. Richard Linklater
24. Peter Jackson

Honorable mention: Tim Burton - had some pretty horrible stuff of late, but the first half of his filmography is outstanding stuff

[Micjones]

No particular order:

2. Christopher Nolan
3. Paul Thomas Anderson
5. Bryan Singer
9. John Lasseter*
11. Michael Moore*
12. Barry Levinson
13. Spike Jonze
14. Ang Lee
15. Wes Anderson
16. Alexander Payne
17. Gus Van Sant
18. Kevin Smith
23. Richard Linklater

Honorable mention: Tim Burton - had some pretty horrible stuff of late, but the first half of his filmography is outstanding stuff

I have a nagging suspicion that you lifted this list, but I'll humor you with my rebuttal anyway. The least you could've done was stolen from a less liberal film critic. For God's sake... You chose Bryan Singer OVER Tim Burton? That was the killshot sir.

This list is laughable to say the least.
Chris Nolan? Ang Lee? Are you kidding?

I slapped the asterisk on Michael Moore and John Lasseter because of the genre of films they make. Moore is a documentarian while Lasseter has always mined children's films. They're both brilliant at what they do though. I'm just not sure their career work is BETTER than Lee's. Honestly only a few names on that list were clearly better filmmakers. Off the top of my head: Gibson, Redford, and Stone.

[RNR]

No particular order:

1. Joel & Ethan Coen
2. Christopher Nolan
3. Paul Thomas Anderson
4. Steven Soderbergh
5. Bryan Singer
6. David Fincher
7. Mel Gibson
8. Pedro Almodóvar
9. John Lasseter
10. Quentin Tarantino
11. Michael Moore
12. Barry Levinson
13. Spike Jonze
14. Ang Lee
15. Wes Anderson
16. Alexander Payne
17. Gus Van Sant
18. Kevin Smith
19. Alejandro Amenábar
20. Oliver Stone
21. Michael Winterbottom
22. Robert Redford
23. Richard Linklater
24. Peter Jackson

Honorable mention: Tim Burton - had some pretty horrible stuff of late, but the first half of his filmography is outstanding stuff

You lost me at #11 :rolleyes: :) sorry that dump is a joke

[Micjones]

You lost me at #11 :rolleyes: :) sorry that dump is a joke

Either he was pressed for time or he lifted this list off of some 26-year old film critic.

[Fire Me Boy!]

I have a nagging suspicion that you lifted this list, but I'll humor you with my rebuttal anyway. The least you could've done was stolen from a less liberal film critic. For God's sake... You chose Bryan Singer OVER Tim Burton? That was the killshot sir.

This list is laughable to say the least.
Chris Nolan? Ang Lee? Are you kidding?

I slapped the asterisk on Michael Moore and John Lasseter because of the genre of films they make. Moore is a documentarian while Lasseter has always mined children's films. They're both brilliant at what they do though. I'm just not sure their career work is BETTER than Lee's. Honestly only a few names on that list were clearly better filmmakers. Off the top of my head: Gibson, Redford, and Stone.

Not sure if you're aware, but I was employed for the better part of six years as a film critic. Didn't lift it.

While several of the names included in my list I don't personally care for (Stone, Moore, Wes Anderson, Kevin Smith), I'd say every one of them is a better storyteller and director than Spike.

:shrug:

[Fire Me Boy!]

Either he was pressed for time or he lifted this list off of some 26-year old film critic.

I personally can't stand Michael Moore (I nearly deleted his name a half-dozen times), but he knows his craft... easily a better filmmaker than SL.

[irishjayhawk]

No particular order:

1. Joel & Ethan Coen
2. Christopher Nolan
3. Paul Thomas Anderson
4. Steven Soderbergh
5. Bryan Singer
6. David Fincher
7. Mel Gibson
8. Pedro Almodóvar
9. John Lasseter
10. Quentin Tarantino
11. Michael Moore
12. Barry Levinson
13. Spike Jonze
14. Ang Lee
15. Wes Anderson
16. Alexander Payne
17. Gus Van Sant
18. Kevin Smith
19. Alejandro Amenábar
20. Oliver Stone
21. Michael Winterbottom
22. Robert Redford
23. Richard Linklater
24. Peter Jackson

Honorable mention: Tim Burton - had some pretty horrible stuff of late, but the first half of his filmography is outstanding stuff

I'd but Del Toro and Alfonso Cuaron on there as well....


Bold: I agree with.
RED: I don't agree. And I don't agree with Tarantino because I feel he lifts 99% of his material from others and was successful mostly because of his actors. But that's me.

[Fire Me Boy!]

And who cares if they make genre films if they're good/great at what they do?

[RNR]

Either he was pressed for time or he lifted this list off of some 26-year old film critic.

To be honest I have not seen much of Spike's work so I have no opinion on his work, as far as his list I have not heard of most of them. And on the subject I think its much to do about nothing and you and I have already covered this type of subject. :)

[Micjones]

And who cares if they make genre films if they're good/great at what they do?

I said I wouldn't really argue against them.
But I still don't think either of them has a catalog as solid as Lee's.
I love Michael Moore's work. Lasseter's great at making animated films, but I don't know that they've been as good as Spike Lee's product over the years.

[Fire Me Boy!]

I'd but Del Toro and Alfonso Cuaron on there as well....


Bold: I agree with.
RED: I don't agree. And I don't agree with Tarantino because I feel he lifts 99% of his material from others and was successful mostly because of his actors. But that's me.

And you know what, I'd absolutely missed Del Toro and Cuaron. I'd gladly bump Gibson (I realize he was a stretch) and Lee for crimes against humanity with Hulk.

[Micjones]

To be honest I have not seen much of Spike's work so I have no opinion on his work, as far as his list I have not heard of most of them. And on the subject I think its much to do about nothing and you and I have already covered this type of subject. :)

I won't lose sleep over the issue either RNR, but I did think it was interesting conversation for about a half-hour today. Like I said earlier, Lee's complaint is often thrown at Hollywood. It's really not new. It's just Tuesday.

[Micjones]

And you know what, I'd absolutely missed Del Toro and Cuaron. I'd gladly bump Gibson (I realize he was a stretch) and Lee for crimes against humanity with Hulk.

Yeah.
Lee's mishandling of Marvel's TIH is enough to keep him off the list.

[Micjones]

Not sure if you're aware, but I was employed for the better part of six years as a film critic. Didn't lift it.

Fair enough, but I think that would've kept some of the names you chose off of the list.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Yeah.
Lee's mishandling of Marvel's TIH is enough to keep him off the list.

I'll give just about everyone one or two misses (or even flops).

And I actually blame TIH catastrophe on the directors - Ang Lee was a horrible choice for that movie.

[Micjones]

I'll give just about everyone one or two misses (or even flops).

I suppose that's fair. That was a monumental flop though.

And I actually blame TIH catastrophe on the directors - Ang Lee was a horrible choice for that movie.

That's why Marvel has chosen to redo the film and get it right this time.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Fair enough, but I think that would've kept some of the names you chose off of the list.

I'm basing my opinion on their ability to tell a story and craft their work, not whether or not I share their agenda or like their films. And the main reason I put Burton as an honorable mention is because of the STRING of bad movies he's made over the past decade.

And like it or not, Christopher Nolan is a rare talent. I've been a fan of his for years, not just since Batman Begins. Let's go back to Following. I would put him WAY, WAY, WAY FAR ahead of Spike Lee.

[Fire Me Boy!]

I suppose that's fair. That was a monumental flop though.
Agreed.

That's why Marvel has chosen to redo the film and get it right this time.

As much as I like Edward Norton, I'll reserve judgment on that.

[Micjones]

I'm basing my opinion on their ability to tell a story and craft their work, not whether or not I share their agenda or like their films.

Well I would hope so.
I hope you don't think that's why I'm a fan of Lee's work?

The cinematography in Spike's films is visually captivating.
I'm more a romantic of the way his films are shot than I am the subject matter. Though that is quite important in and of itself.

And like it or not, Christopher Nolan is a rare talent. I've been a fan of his for years, not just since Batman Begins. Let's go back to Following. I would put him WAY, WAY, WAY FAR ahead of Spike Lee.

And apparently you've had way, way, way too many sips today.
Nolan has 1, maybe 2, films worth seeing. And just 8 total.
To contend that he's somehow lightyears ahead of Lee is insanity walking.

[Micjones]

As much as I like Edward Norton, I'll reserve judgment on that.

It can't be any worse.
And honestly... You just can't go wrong with Ed Norton.

[Fire Me Boy!]

I realize Nolan's repertoire is limited, but I would COMPLETELY disagree with your estimation of one or two that are watchable. Having seen everything he's made save Doodlebug and his short submission to Cinema 16, The Prestige is the only one I'd argue isn't in the least good. Insomnia, Batman Begins, Following, and Memento are all outstanding.

[Fire Me Boy!]

The cinematography in Spike's films is visually captivating.


That much I'll give you.

I'm more a romantic of the way his films are shot than I am the subject matter. Though that is quite important in and of itself.

There's a lot more that goes into my list than the cinematography. Let's not forget script, editing, acting, music, and storytelling.

[Micjones]

I realize Nolan's repertoire is limited, but I would COMPLETELY disagree with your estimation of one or two that are watchable. Having seen everything he's made save Doodlebug and his short submission to Cinema 16, The Prestige is the only one I'd argue isn't in the least good. Insomnia, Batman Begins, Following, and Memento are all outstanding.

You could've made Insomnia a great film with Pacino, Swank, and Robin Williams at your disposal.

Even if I was generous and gave Nolan 3 that still wouldn't be enough for me to put him ahead of Lee.

[Fire Me Boy!]

It can't be any worse.
And honestly... You just can't go wrong with Ed Norton.

Generally, I'd agree with you... but one thing I've seen is that it can ALWAYS be worse (ie. Matrix 2/3; Superman 3/4; Batman Forever/& Robin; Temple of Doom/Kingdom of Shit; Fantastic 4/Rise of the Craptastic Crap).

[Micjones]

There's a lot more that goes into my list than the cinematography. Let's not forget script, editing, acting, music, and storytelling.

Of course.
I'd argue that the scripts Spike Lee's handed his casts made megastars of box office big shots like Denzel Washington, Laurence Fishburne, and Samuel Jackson. Hell, even non-Black actors have gotten Oscar noms from Lee's films.

[Fire Me Boy!]

You could've made Insomnia a great film with Pacino, Swank, and Robin Williams at your disposal.



OK... I'm not seeing your point. The fact that it has a great cast does not change the fact that the movie was great.

All three of those actors have made poor movies. There have been poor movies made with good casts. If we're going to take away movies with good casts, let's delete Lee's 25th Hour, which by my "personal" opinion is BY FAR his best movie.

[Easy 6]

Oh...so now its all lemonade streams, lined with gumdrop trees huh?

Lets agree to disagree about Clint, or be forever locked in this pitched battle.

RACIAL ANTIPATHY & HATRED ARE GOOD...YES!...GIVE IN TO YOUR FEELINGS LUKE!

[Micjones]

Generally, I'd agree with you... but one thing I've seen is that it can ALWAYS be worse (ie. Matrix 2/3; Superman 3/4; Batman Forever/& Robin; Temple of Doom/Kingdom of Shit; Fantastic 4/Rise of the Craptastic Crap).

Fair enough, but the new film is intended to be its own version and not a sequel.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Fair enough, but the new film is intended to be its own version and not a sequel.

I know. And I actually expect this new version to be better, if not actually GOOD.

My wife and I plan to see it in the theater. I'm just not willing to call it "good" until I've actually determined that it is!

:D

[Fire Me Boy!]

I know. And I actually expect this new version to be better, if not actually GOOD.

My wife and I plan to see it in the theater. I'm just not willing to call it "good" until I've actually determined that it is!

:D

I realize now that you may have thought I was under the impression that this version is a sequel, given that my previous examples were all sequels.

Not the case, just the first things that popped into my head as bad, followed by worse.

[Deberg_1990]

I realize now that you may have thought I was under the impression that this version is a sequel, given that my previous examples were all sequels.

Not the case, just the first things that popped into my head as bad, followed by worse.

FMB,

There are already several reviews out there for the new Hulk. Its getting very positive reviews. Check out my Hulk thread.

[Fire Me Boy!]

FMB,

There are already several reviews out there for the new Hulk. Its getting very positive reviews. Check out my Hulk thread.

Surely will. Gotta do it later though. I have to run now. Will catch up later.

[Micjones]

I know. And I actually expect this new version to be better, if not actually GOOD.

My wife and I plan to see it in the theater. I'm just not willing to call it "good" until I've actually determined that it is!

:D

Sure, sure.
I'm just fairly confident in Marvel's ability to adapt their comic book characters into successful motion pictures.

[Micjones]

I realize now that you may have thought I was under the impression that this version is a sequel, given that my previous examples were all sequels.

Not the case, just the first things that popped into my head as bad, followed by worse.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.

[Easy 6]

Is this our Micjones?

A couple things dont add up, but a couple do...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=8943407

[T-post Tom]

"This March he was sacked from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's California state parks commission for objecting to the building of a toll road through a national forest."

Who sacks Dirty Harry? Only the Terminator. Forget Alien vs. Predator. The new blockbuster is Dirty Harry vs. The Terminator. (Picture not yet rated.)

[Micjones]

Oh...so now its all lemonade streams, lined with gumdrop trees huh?

Lets agree to disagree about Clint, or be forever locked in this pitched battle.

RACIAL ANTIPATHY & HATRED ARE GOOD...YES!...GIVE IN TO YOUR FEELINGS LUKE!

Sure Free, we can agree to disagree...

[Micjones]

Is this our Micjones?

A couple things dont add up, but a couple do...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=8943407

No sir. I am a Kansas City-native and resident.
Nice try though.