So My Employer Says We all Have To Take Polygraph Test

[MTG#10]

Last week supposedly $1000 came up missing from the vault at my work. Theres only 8 guys that have keys and I'm one of them. I dont know who it was, but I have my suspicions. As many people thats come and gone from that place over the years, anyone could have made copies of the keys so I dont really think it was anyone that currently works there.

Today when I was leaving my manager told me starting next week we will all be taking polygraph tests. Im not worried about failing the test because I know I didnt take it but can they really force me to do that? I thought there was some kind of law against that unless you work for the government. And even if/when they do find the guy who fails, will they legally be able to fire him for it? Something smells fishy about this whole thing to me.

[Valiant]

Yeah I am not sure if they can do that or not.. A lawyer would probably know better though..

I would not do it.. They might ask other questions unrelated to the money theft trying to find out something else to fire more associates for..

[kstater]

Perfectly acceptable in this instance. Read the exceptions part in the article.
http://www.mypersonnelfile.com/pr_polygraph.php

[MTG#10]

Well this is going to be interesting. I hope they dont ask me anything about banging the owner's daughter in the owner's office a few years ago.

[RNR]

Yeah I am not sure if they can do that or not.. A lawyer would probably know better though..

I would not do it.. They might ask other questions unrelated to the money theft trying to find out something else to fire more associates for..

That is the thing are they going to ask about the money or does it include backgroung questions?

[MTG#10]

That is the thing are they going to ask about the money or does it include backgroung questions?
I would assume they would only be able to ask about the money, but I dont know for sure. Are there any attorneys that frequent here?

[RNR]

Well this is going to be interesting. I hope they dont ask me anything about banging the owner's daughter in the owner's office a few years ago.

Don't sweat that, the guy giving you the test most likely has to :)

[Adept Havelock]

I'd be finding a new employer. If my word isn't good enough for them, they can f*** off.

JMO.

Besides, anyone with a little skill in controlling biofeedback can spoof a polygraph.

[vailpass]

That is the thing are they going to ask about the money or does it include backgroung questions?

Depends on the type of poly but in my experience they always ask baseline questions to calibrate i.e. what is your name, etc.
Pretty sure "did you slip the pickle to Mr. Smith's daughter in his office" is not a baseline question :)

[vailpass]

I'd be finding a new employer. If my word isn't good enough for them, they can f*** off.

JMO.

Besides, anyone with a little skill in controlling biofeedback can spoof a polygraph.

There's some truth in that but the folks who administer the CI and Lifestyle poly's through The Fort are pretty good at what they do.
I've seen more than one person come out crying.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Missouri is an at-will state. Meaning any employer can fire an employee for any reason, or no reason.

[stlchiefs]

Last week supposedly $1000 came up missing from the vault at my work. Theres only 8 guys that have keys and I'm one of them. I dont know who it was, but I have my suspicions. As many people thats come and gone from that place over the years, anyone could have made copies of the keys so I dont really think it was anyone that currently works there.

Today when I was leaving my manager told me starting next week we will all be taking polygraph tests. Im not worried about failing the test because I know I didnt take it but can they really force me to do that? I thought there was some kind of law against that unless you work for the government. And even if/when they do find the guy who fails, will they legally be able to fire him for it? Something smells fishy about this whole thing to me.

I haven't looked up the legality of this, but the sheer money and time cost of administering the test to that many people would make me think they are simply trying to scare someone into talking. Unless they are really concerned about setting a precedent or preventing this from happening again by weeding out the thief a $1,000 is not worth the cost of this.

[Amnorix]

Missouri is an at-will state. Meaning any employer can fire an employee for any reason, or no reason.

Yes, but see KStaters post. Federal law trumps state law, so if that site is accurate, normally employers would be limited in using polygraphs.

Though an attorney, I've never dealt with this subject matter before, so no clue. :shrug:

[Amnorix]

I haven't looked up the legality of this, but the sheer money and time cost of administering the test to that many people would make me think they are simply trying to scare someone into talking. Unless they are really concerned about setting a precedent or preventing this from happening again by weeding out the thief a $1,000 is not worth the cost of this.


Would probably be worth the deterrence cost to them if it was <5K, which it is. Next time they might get for the entire safe or whatever...

[MTG#10]

Well whats really stupid is this isnt the first time this has happened. Since Ive been working there - about 6 years - this is probably the 5th time money has come up missing. One other time it was $1000, and the other times it was between $200-$500. Also a few years ago some brand new Bose speakers came up missing.

They have security cameras, but they arent on record. The only way they could catch someone with them is if the manager happens to be sitting in his office and watching the live stream. As many times as this has happened and as much cash goes through that vault - somewhere between $15,000 and $20,000/day - you would think they would have a hard drive or something to record on.

[Skyy God]

Is there a black guy with keys to the vault? If so, there's your answer. No need to bother with the polygraphs.

[StcChief]

Well whats really stupid is this isnt the first time this has happened. Since Ive been working there - about 6 years - this is probably the 5th time money has come up missing. One other time it was $1000, and the other times it was between $200-$500. Also a few years ago some brand new Bose speakers came up missing.

They have security cameras, but they arent on record. The only way they could catch someone with them is if the manager happens to be sitting in his office and watching the live stream. As many times as this has happened and as much cash goes through that vault - somewhere between $15,000 and $20,000/day - you would think they would have a hard drive or something to record on.and we know how expensive those are :rolleyes:

[Redrum_69]

Is there a black guy with keys to the vault? If so, there's your answer. No need to bother with the polygraphs.



:shake:


Racist bastard

[MTG#10]

Is there a black guy with keys to the vault? If so, there's your answer. No need to bother with the polygraphs.

No in 70 years of business they've never hired anyone of color. Actually there was a dude that was part Cherokee once but he quit because they refused to pay him in wampum.

[FAX]

Hmmm. As an employer, I would love to polygraph the crap out of everybody every day. It might improve productivity and who knows what one could learn.

This may well be a ruse, however. To force the culprit's hand. If indeed there is an actual culprit, that is. For example, the cash could have left on its own if it was some of that walking around money.

FAX

[Skyy God]

:shake:


Racist bastard

Just a little cross thread ribbing....

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=185035

[L.A. Chieffan]

Polygraphs are very easy to fool. At least in my personal instances.

[stlchiefs]

Employee Polygraph Notice Labor Law Poster for Missouri

The Employee Polygraph Protection Act prohibits most private employers from using lie detector tests either for pre-employment screening or during the course of employment.

PROHIBITIONS
Employers are generally prohibited from requiring or requesting any employee or job applicant to take a lie detector test, and from discharging, disciplining, or discriminating against an employee or prospective employee for refusing to take a test or for exercising other rights under the Act.

EXEMPTIONS*
Federal, State and local governments are not affected by the law. Also, the law does not apply to tests given by the Federal Government to certain private individuals engaged in national security-related activities. The Act permits polygraph (a kind of lie detector) tests to be administered in the private sector, subject to restrictions, to certain prospective employees of security service firms (armored car, alarm, and guard), and of pharmaceutical manufacturers, distributors and dispensers. The Act also permits polygraph testing, subject to restrictions, of certain employees of private firms who are reasonably suspected of involvement in a workplace incident (theft, embezzlement, etc.) that resulted in economic loss to the employer.

EXAMINEE RIGHTS
Where polygraph tests are permitted, they are subject to numerous strict standards concerning the conduct and length of the test. Examinees have a number of specific rights, including the right to a written notice before testing, the right to refuse or discontinue a test, and the right not to have test results disclosed to unauthorized persons.

ENFORCEMENT
The Secretary of Labor may bring court actions to restrain violations and assess civil penalties up to $10,000 against violators. Employees or job applicants may also bring their own court actions.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
Additional information may be obtained, and complaints of violations may be filed, at local offices of the Wage and Hour Division, which are listed in the telephone directory under U.S. Government, Department of Labor, Employment Standards Administration.

THE LAW REQUIRES EMPLOYERS TO DISPLAY THIS POSTER WHERE EMPLOYEES AND JOB APPLICANTS CAN READILY SEE IT.
*The law does not preempt any provision of any State or local law or any collective bargaining agreement which is more restrictive with respect to lie detector tests.

[Skyy God]

Well this is going to be interesting. I hope they dont ask me anything about banging the owner's daughter in the owner's office a few years ago.

I think you're in the clear. Theoretically, at least.

"Secondly, during all phases of the testing, the employee is granted the right.... not to be asked questions about beliefs, opinions or affiliations in the areas of religion, racial matters, politics, <b><u>sexual behavior</b></u>, or the lawful activities of labor organizations."

http://www.skepticfiles.org/aclu/04pap.htm

[MTG#10]

Polygraphs are very easy to fool. At least in my personal instances.

I dont need to "fool" it, Im just concerned about a false positive. From what Ive read these things are wrong as often as they're right.

[little jacob]

if you refuse, i would expect to be terminated. if they are going to require a test they will probably take refusal as incriminating yourself.

[L.A. Chieffan]

I dont need to "fool" it, Im just concerned about a false positive. From what Ive read these things are wrong as often as they're right.

You don't have to be worried about anything as long as you're telling the truth.

Not only that but if the test is performed by a licensed professional they will TELL you the questions before they hook you up.

[stlchiefs]

The Act is administered by the US Dept of Labor. Here's a fact sheet that provides some more info, specifically on requirements that an employer must follow. Here's a link to the pdf Fact Sheet: http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/whdfs36.pdf

Here's a link to a search for "polygraph" on the Dept of Labor website: http://www.dol.gov/search/Search.aspx?search_term=polygraph&Image1.x=0&Image1.y=0&Image1=Go&offset=0

[Skyy God]

You don't have to be worried about anything as long as you're telling the truth.

Not only that but if the test is performed by a licensed professional they will TELL you the questions before they hook you up.

Looks like the questions must be provided in advance and in writing.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

It has been proven over and over that if you will hold a bag of boar semen in your mouth while taking a polygraph test you will beat it every time.

[stlchiefs]

It has been proven over and over that if you will hold a bag of boar semen in your mouth while taking a polygraph test you will beat it every time.

More recent tests have shown simply taking a 4 oz shot of said substance within 5 minutes of beginning a polygraph achieve the same results and leave the test taker better able to answer the questions in a coherent manner.

[chief husker]

I dont need to "fool" it, Im just concerned about a false positive. From what Ive read these things are wrong as often as they're right.

Just remember to set your baseline high. The test will start with basic questions, your name, address, etc. Make sure when they ask those baseline questions that you move or shift your weight, inhale sharply, wiggle that finger with the sensor attached. I know people that have put a tack in their shoe. Lying or not, your subsequent answers will be less stressed.

[CrazyPhuD]

I dont need to "fool" it, Im just concerned about a false positive. From what Ive read these things are wrong as often as they're right.

Just don't panic and you're fine. You didn't do and nothing to worry about. Now if you feel you'll be too nervous then before the test, go out to your car and get stoned out of your mind. You'll probably be so relaxed that you wouldn't register any physiological response. If you don't have access to the weed I hear horse tranquilizers also work.

[MTG#10]

Just don't panic and you're fine. You didn't do and nothing to worry about. Now if you feel you'll be too nervous then before the test, go out to your car and get stoned out of your mind. You'll probably be so relaxed that you wouldn't register any physiological response. If you don't have access to the weed I hear horse tranquilizers also work.

Hell no, weed makes me extremely paranoid. I would probably piss myself as soon as they started hooking up the wires if I was high.

[stumppy]

I was told that if you put a thumb tack inside your shoe and press down on it so as to cause a slight amount of pain while answering the baseline questions you'll be able to lie like a raider fan during the test and get away with it.

[MTG#10]

I was told that if you put a thumb tack inside your shoe and press down on it so as to cause a slight amount of pain while answering the baseline questions you'll be able to lie like a raider fan during the test and get away with it.

I read that too, but apparently most places make you take off your shoes and socks now.

[Lex Luthors]

Well this is going to be interesting. I hope they dont ask me anything about banging the owner's daughter in the owner's office a few years ago.
Just remember. It's only a lie if YOU think it is.

http://www.xhaven.net/prismaticlabs/Downloads/Seinfeld-GeorgeFired.jpg

[FAX]

I read that too, but apparently most places make you take off your shoes and socks now.

That certainly makes it more difficult, Mr. MTG#10. Hmmm. Perhaps the best alternative is to, instead, place something extraordinarily painful in your anus. Most likely, the examiner will not ask you to remove your pants and your results will, no doubt, be highly inconclusive.

FAX

[MTG#10]

Well I volunteered to be first in line for the polygraph test today. I want this suspicion crap to end. Ever since the money came up missing we've all been treated "differently". I think we start taking them next week so I'll update then.

[BIG_DADDY]

Well I volunteered to be first in line for the polygraph test today. I want this suspicion crap to end. Ever since the money came up missing we've all been treated "differently". I think we start taking them next week so I'll update then.

Pass the test then quit. LMAO

[Skip Towne]

Pass the test then quit. LMAO

That would serve them right. I worked one place where there were 6 of us techs. The decided a drug test would be a good idea. Only 2 of us showed up for the test. They didn't do that again.

[BIG_DADDY]

That would serve them right. I worked one place where there were 6 of us techs. The decided a drug test would be a good idea. Only 2 of us showed up for the test. They didn't do that again.

I only worked for one place that tested, they just never asked me to test. I applied at a place a long, long time ago that tested to get in. They really wanted me on board. I passed but got offered a better position at another company and took it. If you are not paying REALLY big money or need to cover your ass on say a driving position I have no idea why anyone would put up with that type of scrutiny from an employer.

[Spott]

How much does it cost to have a polygraph administered? I doubt that they just have a polygraph machine just sitting around the office and they would have to pay another company who would probably charge more than $1000.00 to perform the test on 8 employees.

[Skip Towne]

I only worked for one place that tested, they just never asked me to test. I applied at a place a long, long time ago that tested to get in. They really wanted me on board. I passed but got offered a better position at another company and took it. If you are not paying REALLY big money or need to cover your ass on say a driving position I have no idea why anyone would put up with that type of scrutiny from an employer.
Me either.

[MTG#10]

How much does it cost to have a polygraph administered? I doubt that they just have a polygraph machine just sitting around the office and they would have to pay another company who would probably charge more than $1000.00 to perform the test on 8 employees.
Im sure it would be well over a grand to test us all. I think they will test the people that they are the most suspicious of first even though I volunteered. Or it may be BS to try to get someone to crack and they arent planning on testing anyone at all. :shrug:

[Mr. Plow]

Here is a good place to get some feedback from actual attorneys that have dealt with situations. I go there from time to time to get some info.


http://www.laborlawtalk.com/index.php

[Spott]

Im sure it would be well over a grand to test us all. I think they will test the people that they are the most suspicious of first even though I volunteered. Or it may be BS to try to get someone to crack and they arent planning on testing anyone at all. :shrug:

I don't think so either. That's a hell of a lot of effort to go through for a thousand dollars. I think they are just trying to get someone to come forward or rat out their friend. I think the boss would be better served if he just filed a police report on the stolen money and they could question the 8 employees.

[stlchiefs]

Former campus cop 'fesses up' to pass polygraph
By Robert Patrick
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
06/12/2008
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/9C86FCCD873369F4862574660072E87E?OpenDocument


An aspiring Rolla police officer and former employee of three other Missouri departments, including the University of Missouri-Rolla, confessed to child porn and child sex charges last year to avoid failing a pre-employment polygraph test, prosecutors said today.

Leonard J. Cook Jr., 31, of Rolla, was undergoing a background check, which included a polygraph, when he was asked if he had any contact with underage girls, U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway said in a press conference Thursday.

Hanaway said Cook answered “yes” to that question, then “yes” again when asked if he had child pornography, Hanaway said.

Phelps County Prosecuting Attorney Courtney George speculated that Cook was being honest to avoid failing the polygraph.

Cook also admitted that he had deviate sexual intercourse with a young girl, George said, and now faces a state charge of second degree statutory rape.

She later explained that Cook met the 15 or 16-year-old girl when she was visiting the University of Missouri-Rolla campus. Cook was in uniform, working for the university police department, she said.

“By all accounts he pretty much just gave it up,” Hanaway said. It does not often happen that people just give it all up in the first conversation,” she said.

Rolla police called in the Missouri Highway Patrol, the FBI and other investigators, who found child porn on Cook's computer, including images of nude girls and boys performing sex acts, according to his plea agreement.

Cook pleaded guilty Wednesday to one felony count of possession of child pornography and now could face about four to five years in federal prison.

Hanaway said that Cook also worked for the Washington County sheriff's office and two other police departments.

[BigRedChief]

In my line of work a polygraph can be requested at any time. But there has to be a reason to polygraph.

So my lifes kind of an open book. They have access(if they chose to access) to my financial data, phone records, work history, friends, neighbors, school and police records and so on and so on.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Just remember. It's only a lie if YOU think it is.

http://www.xhaven.net/prismaticlabs/Downloads/Seinfeld-GeorgeFired.jpg


Close. "Jerry just remember, it's not a lie..... if you believe it".

[BIG_DADDY]

In my line of work a polygraph can be requested at any time. But there has to be a reason to polygraph.

So my lifes kind of an open book. They have access(if they chose to access) to my financial data, phone records, work history, friends, neighbors, school and police records and so on and so on.

Good god. Do they have access to your anal cavity as well?

[BigRedChief]

Good god. Do they have access to your anal cavity as well?
It's the nature of the beast. I agree with the policy. Too much is at stake to let someone get in debt and be vulnerable or be a closet gay or something like that and open to exposure and could be turned against you.

[Donger]

It's the nature of the beast. I agree with the policy. Too much is at stake to let someone get in debt and be vulnerable or be a closet gay or something like that and open to exposure and could be turned against you.

What do you do?

[BigRedChief]

What do you do?
If I told you I would have to kill you. :)

I use to work for the Dept. of Homeland Security. I'm doing the same thing now that I did for them.

[FAX]

Tell him!! Tell him!!!

FAX

[Donger]

If I told you I would have to kill you. :)

I use to work for the Dept. of Homeland Security. I'm doing the same thing now that I did for them.

Did you work for TSA?

[Donger]

Tell him!! Tell him!!!

FAX

ROFL

[MTG#10]

I took my test today. I told the truth on all of the questions but the needles were still moving like crazy. I dont know what to think of that. I guess normally they ask you all of the same questions in three different rounds but after the second the guy said he had enough, he didnt need the third round. For telling the truth, and these things with their supposed 95% accuracy, I sure didnt leave with an easy feeling.

[Redrum_69]

Youre screwed

Box up all your stufff and get ready for the exit interview

[bkkcoh]

I took my test today. I told the truth on all of the questions but the needles were still moving like crazy. I dont know what to think of that. I guess normally they ask you all of the same questions in three different rounds but after the second the guy said he had enough, he didnt need the third round. For telling the truth, and these things with their supposed 95% accuracy, I sure didnt leave with an easy feeling.

You should comsider yourself lucky they didn't bring out the waterboard. It might have made you confess to the crime even though you didn't do it.

[MTG#10]

You should comsider yourself lucky they didn't bring out the waterboard. It might have made you confess to the crime even though you didn't do it.

Nah, the guy was like 75-80 years old and probably weighed 130 pounds. He couldnt have forced me into that.

[Mr. Plow]

Sorry to hear that man. I need someone to mow my lawn when you get some time.

[MTG#10]

Sorry to hear that man. I need someone to mow my lawn when you get some time.
Well its against the law to fire someone for failing a polygraph...but that doesnt mean they cant make up a reason in a week or two. It probably didnt help that before I went I read hundreds of horror stories about false positives on antipolygraph.org.

[Mr. Plow]

Well its against the law to fire someone for failing a polygraph...but that doesnt mean they cant make up a reason in a week or two. It probably didnt help that before I went I read hundreds of horror stories about false positives on antipolygraph.org.

If they really want to fire you, they won't need the polygraph. They'll come up with their own "legal" reasons to do it.

I'm sure reading all those stories didn't help much.

[Mr. Plow]

Honestly, you are probably worrying about nothing.

[MTG#10]

Oh well. Anyone here own a business in the Springfield area?

[IA_Chiefs_fan]

Well I volunteered to be first in line for the polygraph test today.
If I was the employer that would make me suspect you more. Guilty!

[Valiant]

Well what ever you do.. Don't quit.. make them pay you unemployment..

[MTG#10]

They claim they havent received my results back yet. Obviously BS since the guy told me he would the results sent over that afternoon. Im thinking I passed and they dont have the balls to apologize and admit they were wrong.

[Midnight_Vulture]

If you are innocent then take it. You will pass. Of course if they ask you if you fantasize about men...you will have to tell them the truth hahaha.

[PastorMikH]

I had to take one once as a teenager when I worked at Wendys. Someone in the middle of the night "Broke in" with no visible signs of forced entry and drilled the office safe in a place completely unrelated to the locking mechanism and took all of the cash. All the employees that worked the evening before had to take a test along with all the store managers. Oddly enough, the one person we all thought did it (he had keys and the safe combo as well as in a pinch financially) didn't take the test - he was the area supervisor that ordered the tests in the first place.


It really wasn't that big of a deal. Kinda interesting to me actually. They asked questions and told me to lie, then tell the truth. Even when was lying because they told me too and wasn't nervous the machine still recorded that I was lying.

[MTG#10]

Just an update, I passed my test and now they're totally kissing my ass. The guy that took his right before me passed and as soon as they gave him his results he quit. He's single with no kids though, I am not in the position to just walk out without a back up job.

[CrazyPhuD]

You should tell them you want $1000 in compensation. If they don't give it to you just take if from the vault.

[stlchiefs]

So all the tips from CP worked. We told you that you'd beat it. So how are you spending the $1000?

[Mr. Plow]

Just an update, I passed my test and now they're totally kissing my ass. The guy that took his right before me passed and as soon as they gave him his results he quit. He's single with no kids though, I am not in the position to just walk out without a back up job.


Good for you!

[alanm]

You should tell them you want $1000 in compensation. If they don't give it to you just take if from the vault.
LMAO:thumb:

[Skip Towne]

So did they find the thief?

[MTG#10]

So did they find the thief?
Not yet as far as I know. Out of 8 route guys, 3 have taken it, two passed (including me) and the third is still waiting for his results. For some reason, it takes the examiner a week to finish the results. The guy is like close to 80 years old, so that may have something to do with it.