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stlchiefs
07-01-2008, 01:30 PM
McGwire maintains silent presence, quietly helps hitters

By Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY
Once the most famous man in baseball, Mark McGwire lives at the end of a cul-de-sac in a gated community in Irvine, Calif., where the world is not permitted to see him.

He hasn't made a public appearance at a major league ballpark in three years, has declined interview requests and passed on annual invitations to visit his former team, the St. Louis Cardinals, in spring training.

McGwire, the greatest show on earth a decade ago when he hit a single-season record 70 home runs, had his last moment in the spotlight in 2005, a tortured day in front of a congressional hearing on steroids from which his words — "I'm not here to talk about the past" — still resonate.

"The perception of Mark is so completely different than the reality," says Craig Daedelow, a friend of McGwire who often sees and talks to him. "People think he's out of the game, but they have no idea just how much he's still in the game."

Although McGwire declined to comment for this story, friends, colleagues and those in the game say he is slowly returning to baseball. They point to the secret hitting lessons he gives to a small group of major leaguers, minor leaguers and college players, and the time two years ago he nearly became the hitting coach of the Colorado Rockies.
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They say they are convinced the 44-year-old will be in a baseball uniform in the near future, and not because he is in search of glory or a place in the Hall of Fame after two failed bids, but because his enduring passion for baseball is driving him back after he retired in 2001.

"He would be a tremendous hitting coach," Colorado Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd says. "Really, he'd be great at just about anything he wanted to do in baseball. He has so much passion for the game, and so much to offer."

Mike Gallego, McGwire's long-time friend and former teammate, says the former slugger still has conflicted feelings. McGwire has never publicly admitted to using steroids nor denied allegations. He refused to answer whether he used steroids as a player during his March 17, 2005, testimony before the House Committee on Government Reform.

"The game of baseball means so much to him," Gallego says, "that he's embarrassed what he did. He feels like he let a lot of kids down. They looked up to him. He was their hero. And he disappointed them.

"Mac was always a people pleaser.

"And he feels like he hurt them."

McGwire has lost touch with some friends and acquaintances, with former Southern California teammates such as Randy Johnson of the Arizona Diamondbacks unable to even remember the last time they saw him.

"It's sad," Commissioner Bud Selig says. "He gave so much to this game, but now you don't see him or even hear from him."

Quietly helping hitters

McGwire may have vanished from the public eye, but there are those who know exactly where to find him.

There is no routine, and he doesn't show up every day, but McGwire can be seen in the early mornings or late afternoons at Daedelow's batting cage, Total Baseball, in Huntington Beach, Calif.

This is where he teaches hitting, conducts lessons and discusses philosophies of the game with his protégés.

"He's the most outgoing person there is when it comes to wanting to help people," says New York Yankees utilityman Shelley Duncan, who works with McGwire each winter. "He really revolutionized my swing and changed things around for my career. When I worked with him, my eyes really opened up to the mental side of the game.

"He loves the game, and he really wants to get back into it. He'd be a tremendous hitting coach."

McGwire has hitting disciples throughout baseball, including defending National League batting champion Matt Holliday of the Colorado Rockies; Skip Schumaker and Chris Duncan, Shelley's brother, of the Cardinals; Howie Clark of the Class AAA Rochester (N.Y.) Red Wings; and Jack Rye, who recently completed his senior year at Florida State.

Clark, 34, has 302 major league at-bats with Baltimore, Toronto and Minnesota, and 4,395 minor league at-bats dating to 1992. He says his life changed in 1996 when he started to work with McGwire.

"He's one of the greatest people I've ever met in life," he says. "I've spent 15 years in the minors, and he treats me like a teammate. He's the one who gave me hope, telling me never to give up on my dreams, that I can play in the big leagues.

"When I finally made it, after nine years, Mark was one of the first ones to call me."

McGwire's teachings, his students say, are hopefully the beginning of his reconciliation with Major League Baseball. One day, perhaps as early as this winter or next spring, they believe McGwire will return in an official capacity.

He might be a major league hitting coach or a roving minor league coach. The Cardinals have discussed sending their top prospects to work with him, Daedelow said, citing a recent conversation with McGwire. But those with whom he's worked insist McGwire will return to the game in an official capacity.

"Absolutely," says Schumaker, who along with Chris Duncan spends one week each winter with McGwire, hitting for nearly six hours a day. "He has so much to give, I know he wants to get back into it.

"Really, he needs to be back in this game. Everybody that's ever been around him wants him back. I know he probably wants some things to calm down, and he doesn't want to be a distraction, but I think he can make this work.

"The game needs him. It's time."

Nearly 600 homers, but no Hall

McGwire made his last public baseball appearance during the final weekend of September 2005. He returned to Busch Stadium to commemorate the final regular-season games there.

It also was the last time he spoke publicly, except for a brief comment at a charity event, six months after his congressional testimony.

"When I left Washington, that's the last time I'm going to ever talk about it," McGwire told reporters. "That's really about it. I've moved on. I wish the media would move on from it.

"I'm enjoying life right now. I love the game of baseball. I miss the game of baseball. And I can't wait for someday when somebody offers me a fantastic job to get back in baseball."

McGwire remains haunted by allegations of steroid use. He has 583 home runs, but in Hall of Fame voting conducted by the Baseball Writers Association of America, he has received only 23.5% and 23.6% of the vote in two years of eligibility. A candidate needs 75% for induction.

If McGwire makes the Hall, the Cardinals will unveil the bronze statue of him that is sitting in a downtown St. Louis warehouse.

"I'm all for you get what you earn, you deserve," Cardinals manager Tony La Russa says, "and he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. It's not even a tough call."

Interviewed with Rockies

Two years ago, the Rockies needed a hitting coach. Names were suggested. Résumés poured into O'Dowd's office. And three members of O'Dowd's coaching staff came forth with one recommendation.

Walt Weiss, Jamie Quirk and Gallego, all of whom played with McGwire in Oakland, told O'Dowd he needed to talk to McGwire.

"I thought he'd be perfect," Gallego says. "He has an unbelievable gift of teaching hitting. He was serious about it."

O'Dowd telephoned McGwire and conducted an informal interview. McGwire later pulled himself out of the running, but two years later, O'Dowd has not forgotten.

"I couldn't believe how much he really understood hitting, and how great he was in the interview," O'Dowd says. "There was absolutely no doubt in my mind he'd be great. I still believe that."

So do many people in baseball.

"The guy is unbelievable," says Holliday, who met McGwire two years ago. "I was able to talk to him and pick his brain. I still have him (text-message) me if he sees something.

"I'd love for him to help out, whether it's with us or someone else, and I think he will once he can coach and not have a circus around him."

La Russa, who managed McGwire in Oakland and St. Louis in 14-plus seasons of his 16-year career, has tried the past five years to persuade McGwire to join him as a coach.

He thought McGwire was ready last spring to help out for a week as a spring training instructor. McGwire, married with two young boys and a grown son from his first marriage, waited all spring before finally declining.

"He hasn't been to camp since he retired, but I really thought we were close this time," La Russa says. "He will. It's just a question of when the time is right with his boys.

"I can't wait when he does. He has so much to offer."

Rye's family lives in the same Southern California neighborhood as McGwire, and he introduced himself to McGwire four years ago. Rye, an outfielder, says McGwire never lost touch with him when he went to college and provided hitting lessons when Rye came home. When Rye was drafted in the 13th round by the New York Yankees last month, one of the first congratulatory text messages was from McGwire.

"If I make it" to the big leagues, Rye says, "Mark will be a big reason why. He's helped me so much. He took me under his wing and helped me become the player I am."

Daedelow, whose seven-year minor league career ended because of injuries, says he believes it's a matter of when — not if — McGwire returns to a major league ballpark.

"I just don't know if he's ready to put his name out there and face all of the crap he'd get," Daedelow says.

"When this all blows over, everyone's going to see him again, people will find out the real Mark McGwire. They'll see just how much he loves this game, and really, what he still means to this game."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-06-30-mcgwire_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip





He's no Barry Bonds, but I personally am still not willing to let him off the hook for his actions. They still need to rename the stupid highway here in STL after someone more fitting.

BigRedChief
07-01-2008, 01:32 PM
Nope, he cheated. Plain and simple. He gets no 2nd chance in my book until he comes clean, apoligizes etc.

beach tribe
07-01-2008, 01:35 PM
I defense of Mark, he had the highest hr per bat average before he tuned into a an abomination.

BigRedChief
07-01-2008, 01:36 PM
I defense of Mark, he had the highest hr per bat average before he tuned into a freak of nature.
I know he was bashing home runs before steriods and he didn't hit 500+ home runs only because he took steriods. But how many were hit that were steriod aided? Who knows?

stlchiefs
07-01-2008, 01:37 PM
Nope, he cheated. Plain and simple. He gets no 2nd chance in my book until he comes clean, apoligizes etc.

I think this is a lot of people's (mine especially) reason for holding so much against him. Though others have come out he sits in silence and refuses to even talk about the subject.

Deberg_1990
07-01-2008, 01:37 PM
Cant believe its been 10 years since that magical summer of Sosa & McGwire.

Third Eye
07-01-2008, 01:38 PM
He's no Barry Bonds, but I personally am still not willing to let him off the hook for his actions. They still need to rename the stupid highway here in STL after someone more fitting.
If he had just had the balls to step up and say "Yeah, I did it. I f--ked up," I would still have some respect for him.

Frazod
07-01-2008, 01:38 PM
I'll take Why The Hell Would Want To Post This for $1,000, Alex.

beach tribe
07-01-2008, 01:40 PM
I know he was bashing home runs before steriods and he didn't hit 500+ home runs only because he took steriods. But how many were hit that were steriod aided? Who knows?

You're right. He cheated, and that's all that does, and should matter. But I believe had he stayed healthy his entire career, he would have been the best HR hitter ever.......without the roids.

stlchiefs
07-01-2008, 01:41 PM
I'll take Why The Hell Would Want To Post This for $1,000, Alex.

I'm not trying to pour fuel on the fire, but thought it was an interesting read. I think it's a pretty big revelation when you have one of the few goods friends Mac keeps in touch with making a public comment that Mac is embarrassed by his actions and feels bad about it.

Either way, it's the offseason and coming off a good series is sure to make for some lively discussion. :evil:

BigRedChief
07-01-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm not trying to pour fuel on the fire, but thought it was an interesting read. I think it's a pretty big revelation when you have one of the few goods friends Mac keeps in touch with making a public comment that Mac is embarrassed by his actions and feels bad about it.

Either way, it's the offseason and coming off a good series is sure to make for some lively discussion. :evil:
You guys see the article on who is A-Rod's hitting coach for the last 2 years???? Pete Rose. A-Rod calls him and visits him at the Las Vegas casino where he signs autographs.

raybec 4
07-01-2008, 01:45 PM
Cant believe its been 10 years since that magical summer of Sosa & McGwire.

That really brought a lot of people back to the sport. Fans had given up after the strike and those two salvaged a lot of borderline fans. Having said that, I don't know if Mac should be in the Hall even without the steroids.

Frazod
07-01-2008, 01:48 PM
I'm not trying to pour fuel on the fire, but thought it was an interesting read. I think it's a pretty big revelation when you have one of the few goods friends Mac keeps in touch with making a public comment that Mac is embarrassed by his actions and feels bad about it.

Either way, it's the offseason and coming off a good series is sure to make for some lively discussion. :evil:

Piss on him. We didn't win a damned thing while he was here, and his epic failure in the playoffs against the Diamondbacks cost us at least another pennant. He should have manned up like Giambi and admitted what he did. It's not like it isn't obvious.

Deberg_1990
07-01-2008, 01:51 PM
Having said that, I don't know if Mac should be in the Hall even without the steroids.

Hes basically been blacklisted kind of like Pete Rose.

Even Rose finally came clean eventually. I wonder if and when McGwire does, he will get into the Hall?

CoMoChief
07-01-2008, 01:56 PM
I could give a shit if he cheated etc. Him and Sosa alone brought the game of baseball back to national prominence.

I still think he's the greatest slugger in baseball's history ......**** Bonds.

BigRedChief
07-01-2008, 01:57 PM
Hes basically been blacklisted kind of like Pete Rose.

Even Rose finally came clean eventually. I wonder if and when McGwire does, he will get into the Hall?
Not until he comes clean thats for sure.

Pasta Little Brioni
07-01-2008, 01:57 PM
"Big Mac" turned his back on Cardinal fans by not telling the truth. F him.

BigRedChief
07-01-2008, 02:00 PM
That really brought a lot of people back to the sport. Fans had given up after the strike and those two salvaged a lot of borderline fans. Having said that, I don't know if Mac should be in the Hall even without the steroids.
Agreed. History will show that the McGuire/Sosa home run race saved baseball as much as Ruth did after the Black Sox scandal.

Yes, he would be in the HOF without roids but its obvious he took them and they were against the rules of baseball and even if roids were not banned by baseball they were defintely against the law.

But, he should be in the HOF and so should Rose.

POND_OF_RED
07-01-2008, 02:01 PM
How are people seriously justifying that he is the best HR hitter of all time? Even with the roids he didn't reach 600 HRs.

Frazod
07-01-2008, 02:06 PM
How are people seriously justifying that he is the best HR hitter of all time? Even with the roids he didn't reach 600 HRs.

I agree with that as long as you throw Sosa under the same bus. He roided up AND corked his bats on top of it.

Deberg_1990
07-01-2008, 02:08 PM
Whats funny to me is, everyone rants about roids in baseball so much, but you would have to be naive to think that they are not rampant in the NFL as well.

When it comes down to it, professional athletes are entertainers. Fans will always crave bigger, better, harder etc....

I cant blame some of these guys for doing it honestly. Better stats = more $$$

stlchiefs
07-01-2008, 02:10 PM
I agree with that as long as you throw Sosa under the same bus. He roided up AND corked his bats on top of it.

But he only used those during BP. ROFL Come on guys I'm serious. ROFL

Pasta Little Brioni
07-01-2008, 02:12 PM
Whats funny to me is, everyone rants about roids in baseball so much, but you would have to be naive to think that they are not rampant in the NFL as well.

When it comes down to it, professional athletes are entertainers. Fans will always crave bigger, better, harder etc....

I cant blame some of these guys for doing it honestly. Better stats = more $$$

That is true. The players who have done so, just need to sack up and tell the truth.

POND_OF_RED
07-01-2008, 03:00 PM
I agree with that as long as you throw Sosa under the same bus. He roided up AND corked his bats on top of it.

Sadly I do. I grew up in the Sosa era and he was my favorite player growing up, but the corked bat incident made me lose a lot, if not all, of my respect for him.

Redrum_69
07-01-2008, 03:03 PM
If people are supposed to forgive and forget Mags, then we need to do the same with Pete Rose...who needs a place in the HOF.

jspchief
07-01-2008, 03:03 PM
I'm actually surprised at how much the players get demonized. IMO, the league turned a blind eye to the issue for too long. There had to have been a point where players were forced to choose between steroids and potential job loss. Other than the pioneers of steroid use in baseball, I don't blame the players all that much. I blame the league that had the weakest drug policy in pro sports for decades.

OnTheWarpath15
07-01-2008, 03:04 PM
They still need to rename the stupid highway here in STL after someone more fitting.

That's the one thing that DOESN'T bother me.

That stretch of highway goes through the absolute shittiest part of town...

bayarealightning
07-01-2008, 03:12 PM
I could give a shit if he cheated etc. Him and Sosa alone brought the game of baseball back to national prominence.

I still think he's the greatest slugger in baseball's history ......**** Bonds.
This is what I have a problem with (no offense to the poster). Baseball has always been about the numbers. It was the only sport where you could reasonably compare eras by the numbers that players posted. That put baseball on a different level than any other american sport. 30 HRs, 100 RBIs, and a .300 season was a great season. 500 HRs meant something. I knew something was up when Brady Anderson came out of nowhere (as a power hitter) and hit 50 HRs! Hank Aaron never hit 50 in a season. Shortstops jacking 40 HRs, it was rediculous! They skewered the numbers so much, that the numbers no longer mean anything! That is the biggest travesty to baseball.

Yes McGuire and Sosa brought baseball back, after the ideots cancelled the World Series by locking out the players! The first time that had happened in the over 100 year history of the sport other than stopping the season because of war. They brought baseball back, but at a price that I think was too much to bear.

Lastly, I moved from San Diego to Oakland in 1984. I saw when McGuire and Canseco came up with the A's and I was a huge fan (Padres NL and A's AL). I saw how the team let go of very good players because they couldn't afford to keep them all (this happend after Walter Haas died). The one player that I did not fret over losing was Mark McGuire. Why? Because he couldn't stay healthy! He couldn't play a whole season. He goes to St. Louis and he regains the ability to be an everyday player.

I also do not like how McGuire gets a pass from the media when they talk about steriods in baseball. The line is that he never tested positive. However, when 60 HRs in a season happened only twice in the history of baseball, once by Ruth and Maris, and these guys were knocking in 60 or more for a couple of seasons in a row, the proof is in the pudding.

I heard one commentator state (I wish I remembered his name) how McGuire could catch Aaron. The guy stated that if McGuire averaged, AVERAGED, 60 HRs for X number of years, that he would become the all-time HR king. That made me want to puke!

The skewering of the numbers and the fact that the World Series was canceled has turned me off of baseball. I used to know most of the players and what their numbers were, but I do not care now. Baseball screwed-up and the numbers no longer mean anything. Welcome back to 30 HRs and 100 RBIs as being a great season. (Off of soap box now.)

Pasta Little Brioni
07-01-2008, 03:21 PM
This is what I have a problem with (no offense to the poster). Baseball has always been about the numbers. It was the only sport where you could reasonably compare eras by the numbers that players posted. That put baseball on a different level than any other american sport. 30 HRs, 100 RBIs, and a .300 season was a great season. 500 HRs meant something. I knew something was up when Brady Anderson came out of nowhere (as a power hitter) and hit 50 HRs! Hank Aaron never hit 50 in a season. Shortstops jacking 40 HRs, it was rediculous! They skewered the numbers so much, that the numbers no longer mean anything! That is the biggest travesty to baseball.

Yes McGuire and Sosa brought baseball back, after the ideots cancelled the World Series by locking out the players! The first time that had happened in the over 100 year history of the sport other than stopping the season because of war. They brought baseball back, but at a price that I think was too much to bear.

Lastly, I moved from San Diego to Oakland in 1984. I saw when McGuire and Canseco came up with the A's and I was a huge fan (Padres NL and A's AL). I saw how the team let go of very good players because they couldn't afford to keep them all (this happend after Walter Haas died). The one player that I did not fret over losing was Mark McGuire. Why? Because he couldn't stay healthy! He couldn't play a whole season. He goes to St. Louis and he regains the ability to be an everyday player.

I also do not like how McGuire gets a pass from the media when they talk about steriods in baseball. The line is that he never tested positive. However, when 60 HRs in a season happened only twice in the history of baseball, once by Ruth and Maris, and these guys were knocking in 60 or more for a couple of seasons in a row, the proof is in the pudding.

I heard one commentator state (I wish I remembered his name) how McGuire could catch Aaron. The guy stated that if McGuire averaged, AVERAGED, 60 HRs for X number of years, that he would become the all-time HR king. That made me want to puke!

The skewering of the numbers and the fact that the World Series was canceled has turned me off of baseball. I used to know most of the players and what their numbers were, but I do not care now. Baseball screwed-up and the numbers no longer mean anything. Welcome back to 30 HRs and 100 RBIs as being a great season. (Off of soap box now.)


:bravo:

gblowfish
07-01-2008, 03:27 PM
Cheating is cheating.
No HOF for:

Big Mac
Sosa
Palmero
Bonds
Canseco

or Pete Rose either, while we're at it.
You don't bet on baseball.
You don't cheat with steroids.

End of story.

beach tribe
07-01-2008, 03:31 PM
How are people seriously justifying that he is the best HR hitter of all time? Even with the roids he didn't reach 600 HRs.

He was injured A LOT.

His HRs per at bat are the best ever.

To qualify for this list a player must have over 3000 at bats.
#1
Mark McGwire
Batting Stats » 583 172 10.61 6187 1167 1626 1414 .263 .588
#2
Babe Ruth
Hall of Fame
Batting Stats » 714 41 11.76 8398 2174 2873 2217 .342 .690
#3
Barry Bonds
2007 NL All Star
Batting Stats » 762 -7 12.92 9714 2198 2902 1972 .299 .608
#4
Jim Thome
Batting Stats » 523 232 13.54 6603 1295 1861 1347 .282 .565
#5
Adam Dunn
Batting Stats » 258 497 13.98 3141 575 774 524 .246 .516
#6
Ralph Kiner
Hall of Fame
Batting Stats » 369 386 14.11 5205 971 1451 1015 .279 .548
#7
Harmon Killebrew
Hall of Fame
Batting Stats » 573 182 14.22 8147 1283 2086 1584 .256 .509
#8
Alex Rodriguez
2007 AL All Star
Batting Stats » 533 222 14.22 7089 1440 2169 1434 .306 .577
#9
Albert Pujols
2007 NL All Star
Batting Stats » 299 456 14.36 3799 798 1255 810 .330 .619
#10
Sammy Sosa
Batting Stats » 609 146 14.47 8687 1457 2374 1638 .273 .534
#11
Manny Ramirez
2007 AL All Star
Batting Stats » 506 249 14.52 6882 1304 2154 1564 .313 .594
#12
Ted Williams
Hall of Fame
Batting Stats » 521 234 14.79 7706 1798 2654 1839 .344 .634
#13
Ken Griffey
2007 NL All Star
Batting Stats » 603 152 15.09 8588 1516 2495 1667 .291 .557
#14
Dave Kingman
Batting Stats » 442 313 15.11 6677 901 1575 1210 .236 .478

Frazod
07-01-2008, 03:35 PM
The biggest problem Rose and Bonds have is that they are both proactively vile human beings. Rose would probably have been inducted by now if he'd just SHUT UP. His accomplishments as a player certainly merit it, prick or not (see first inductee Ty Cobb). I used to think he'd been denied long enough, but after hearing so many awful things about him, I'm now convinced he should be inducted the day AFTER he dies, so that his accomplishments can be celebrated without him actually being there. Bonds would have been HOF worthy without the assload of roid-fueled homers he hit, but again, the guy is such a complete dick, I don't care what happens to him.

To their credit, McGwire and Sosa never behaved like complete shitbags, nor do they try to draw attention to themselves now.

Deberg_1990
07-01-2008, 03:48 PM
He was injured A LOT.




Yea, there were a couple of seasons there in the early to mid 90's that cost him a ton of at-bats and a realistic shot at 600 HR's

Tiger's Fan
07-01-2008, 03:50 PM
The difference between Mac and Bonds is the fact that Mac hit 49 homers as a rookie. He was always a legit power hitter from day one, and his body size didn't double over the years. Bonds is the epitome of a cheater, and a scumbag to boot. Also, as was stated earlier, Mac never tested positive. Guilty until proven innocent, the american way.

stlchiefs
07-01-2008, 04:10 PM
This is what I have a problem with (no offense to the poster). Baseball has always been about the numbers. It was the only sport where you could reasonably compare eras by the numbers that players posted. That put baseball on a different level than any other american sport. 30 HRs, 100 RBIs, and a .300 season was a great season. 500 HRs meant something. I knew something was up when Brady Anderson came out of nowhere (as a power hitter) and hit 50 HRs! Hank Aaron never hit 50 in a season. Shortstops jacking 40 HRs, it was rediculous! They skewered the numbers so much, that the numbers no longer mean anything! That is the biggest travesty to baseball.

Yes McGuire and Sosa brought baseball back, after the ideots cancelled the World Series by locking out the players! The first time that had happened in the over 100 year history of the sport other than stopping the season because of war. They brought baseball back, but at a price that I think was too much to bear.

Lastly, I moved from San Diego to Oakland in 1984. I saw when McGuire and Canseco came up with the A's and I was a huge fan (Padres NL and A's AL). I saw how the team let go of very good players because they couldn't afford to keep them all (this happend after Walter Haas died). The one player that I did not fret over losing was Mark McGuire. Why? Because he couldn't stay healthy! He couldn't play a whole season. He goes to St. Louis and he regains the ability to be an everyday player.

I also do not like how McGuire gets a pass from the media when they talk about steriods in baseball. The line is that he never tested positive. However, when 60 HRs in a season happened only twice in the history of baseball, once by Ruth and Maris, and these guys were knocking in 60 or more for a couple of seasons in a row, the proof is in the pudding.

I heard one commentator state (I wish I remembered his name) how McGuire could catch Aaron. The guy stated that if McGuire averaged, AVERAGED, 60 HRs for X number of years, that he would become the all-time HR king. That made me want to puke!

The skewering of the numbers and the fact that the World Series was canceled has turned me off of baseball. I used to know most of the players and what their numbers were, but I do not care now. Baseball screwed-up and the numbers no longer mean anything. Welcome back to 30 HRs and 100 RBIs as being a great season. (Off of soap box now.)

:thumb:

I agree completely. Growing up I was more a fan of the game and the records than I was of an actual team. I read tons of books about the accomplishments of players of the past and "Unbreakable" records. Those great records have since been crushed by cheaters whose records will never be broken unless another cheater comes along without getting caught. It's really a sad thing that these accomplishments mean nothing and on top of that have erased legitimate records from the past.

stlchiefs
07-01-2008, 04:18 PM
The difference between Mac and Bonds is the fact that Mac hit 49 homers as a rookie. He was always a legit power hitter from day one, and his body size didn't double over the years. Bonds is the epitome of a cheater, and a scumbag to boot. Also, as was stated earlier, Mac never tested positive. Guilty until proven innocent, the american way.

You can't the HR facts, but the size is definitely a question mark:

kstater
07-01-2008, 04:20 PM
Cheating is cheating.
No HOF for:

Big Mac
Sosa
Palmero
Bonds
Canseco

or Pete Rose either, while we're at it.
You don't bet on baseball.
You don't cheat with steroids.

End of story.

Clemons and every other ball player. Your naive if you don't think virtually all players tried steroids.

MIAdragon
07-01-2008, 04:49 PM
I know he was bashing home runs before steriods and he didn't hit 500+ home runs only because he took steriods. But how many were hit that were steriod aided? Who knows?

dude every homer was roid aided.

teedubya
07-01-2008, 04:55 PM
I would love for McGwire to go be the hitting coach with the Cardinals, so that Hal McRae can come home to the Royals. He looks a like a faggot in that Cardinals uniform.

stlchiefs
07-01-2008, 08:51 PM
I would love for McGwire to go be the hitting coach with the Cardinals, so that Hal McRae can come home to the Royals. He looks a like a Rump Rangergot in that Cardinals uniform.

It's interesting the teams former Royal's managers are with now. McRae with the Cards and Pena with the Yanks (not that he matters).

tk13
07-01-2008, 09:18 PM
We've had this debate before, and I'm a Royals fan, so I don't like the Cardinals. But I think McGwire might have been the greatest power hitter of all time. I don't think many athletes in the history of sport excelled at what they did better than him, I mean that. I don't want to sound on a high horse, but it's simply true, I think anybody who actually witnessed the guy hit a baseball could see how much more talented he was than everyone else.

That doesn't condone the things he probably did. But as they say, everyone was on steroids.... and you watched them all take batting practice, or even hit home runs in a game. And a lot of people would spray the ball around, or hit homers just over the fence, a few rows deep, etc. Even the best power hitters. McGwire would get up there and dump about 15 balls into the upper deck, just ridiculously farther than any other person out there. And he'd go out there and do the same thing in a game. Sure steroids would help, I guess, but the guy didn't exactly hit a ton of scrapers right over the fence. How do you explain that? Was he on something special nobody else had access to? I don't think so. The guy was legitimately far and away a better hitter than most everybody else out there.

little jacob
07-01-2008, 09:21 PM
i dont respect him for cheating, but he for some reason comes off as a tragic figure. unlike a lot of guys it seems like he probably has genuine regret for what he did and is graceful enough to have faded off into the sunset. every man can look for redemption and i hope he finds that someday both in his own mind and those of the fans.

BigRedChief
07-01-2008, 09:26 PM
Clemons and every other ball player. Your naive if you don't think virtually all players tried steroids.
Ken Griffey Jr got his 600 home runs the right way.... clean and talent alone.

little jacob
07-01-2008, 09:32 PM
Ken Griffey Jr got his 600 home runs the right way.... clean and talent alone.

i hate all the injuries KGJ has had, because he ought to have the place in history that barry bonds occupies including the home run record... better all around player for my money, any day and twice on sunday

POND_OF_RED
07-01-2008, 09:34 PM
Ken Griffey Jr got his 600 home runs the right way.... clean and talent alone.

Exactly. He has the sweetest power swing ever. His HR's come by pure fundamental swings.

BigRedChief
07-02-2008, 06:05 AM
i hate all the injuries KGJ has had, because he ought to have the place in history that barry bonds occupies including the home run record... better all around player for my money, any day and twice on sunday
Yep, from 1991 - 2001 he was the best player we have seen in a 10 year span since.......who? Mays?