Gretz: Evolving Linebackers

[booger]

Aug 11, 2008, 6:07:16 AM by Bob Gretz -

RIVER FALLS, WI – Before he left his home to catch the Chiefs charter flight here to the northwoods for training camp, Gunther Cunningham told his wife that he had some athletic, fast and quick linebackers going to camp, he just didn’t know if they were tough enough.

As he backed out of the driveway, Cunningham stopped went back in the house and told his wife he wouldn’t be home until he had some tough linebackers.

Well Rene Cunningham, get ready because your husband will be home later this week when the Chiefs break camp and return to Kansas City.

There’s no question that in this Chiefs training camp, linebacker has been the position of most change. The three starters who opened camp are now down to one. Various bodies have moved in and out of the lineup. The only constant has been Derrick Johnson. Everything else has been up in the air.

If forced today to pick a normal contingent of six or seven linebackers for the final 53-man roster, Herm Edwards would say Derrick Johnson and … and … and …

But after two-plus weeks of work, Cunningham smiles when he talks about his backers. At the start of camp, he wasn’t able to do that. Just ask his wife.

“We’ll have three guys out there,” Cunningham said after the Chiefs practice on Sunday at UW-River Falls. “They will be three guys that are quick, fast, athletic and tough. We know that much.”

They will also play defense the way Cunningham wants it played. Since he returned to Kansas City in 2004, the Chiefs defense has had a problem with trust, especially at the linebacker position. “It’s the most important ingredient in any defense, trusting what the guys next to you are going to do.” Cunningham said. “When you don’t trust, you can’t succeed.”

Right now, Johnson, Pat Thomas and Demorrio Williams are playing linebacker the way Cunningham wants. They were able to take that from the practice field to the playing field last Thursday against the Bears.

“We’ve found three guys,” Cunningham said. “We are looking for more. I think we have a fourth, but we are still looking for more.”

That fourth would be veteran Donnie Edwards, who has missed over a week now trying to come back from a hamstring injury. Hamstring injuries limited Edwards last year, although he started all 16 games. Several of those starts came when he had barely practiced during the week of preparation.

Something like that will not happen in ‘08. Edwards has a streak of 153 consecutive starts, but that will end the week he can’t practice.

“You’ve got to practice to play this defense,” said Cunningham. “Last year, it hurt us when Donnie didn’t practice and then tried to play. It was the same thing the week D.J. (Johnson) missed because his Dad passed away. That’s a very emotional and personal thing, but without the preparation, he wasn’t ready to play.”

Nobody respects Donnie Edwards more than Cunningham. “You watch him work right now, trying to get back and there’s no questioning his commitment,” the defensive coordinator said. “We just have to find a way to keep him on the field.”

The player who has stepped forward and surprised Chiefs fans is Thomas. Signed during the season last year after he was released by Jacksonville, Thomas played n just four games and was largely active only in the kicking game.

But he started showing himself in the off-season program. When Cunningham grew unhappy with Harris and his play in the middle, he made the switch to Thomas and it’s stuck.

“He played a good game in Chicago, really showed his abilities,” Cunningham said. “He’s intelligent, he’s athletic and he’s tough. There have been times in practice where I’ve called out ‘Nice play D.J.’ only to look closer and see it was Pat Thomas who made the play.”

Recently, the linebacker who has made the biggest jump is Williams. Signed in the off-season as an unrestricted free agent from Atlanta, he had trouble making the transition to Cunningham’s defense. But some of those mental clouds have lifted and he’s begun making plays.

“We are giving him a chance to do some things he never had the chance to do down in Atlanta,” Cunningham said. “This is a very athletic guy.”

During Sunday’s practice, Cunningham had Williams rushing the passer off the edge of a 3-3-5 defensive look. His combination of speed with his ability to get low to the ground made him almost unstoppable for the Chiefs pass protection.

Johnson, Thomas, Williams and Edwards will make the team. That leaves room for two, maybe three more linebackers. The leader among the other LBs is rookie Wes Dacus out of Arkansas. “He’s done some good things,” said Cunningham. Another rookie LeRue Rumph started strong but he’s tailed off in the last week or so. “I think he’s just tired of me yelling at him,” said Cunningham. “If he can bounce back, he’ll be a factor.”

There’s a lot of work left to be done, but Gunther Cunningham likes what’s happened with his linebackers so far.

“We had questions about their toughness and some of those have been answered,” he said. “Now, they’ve got to keep it up.”

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/08/11/evolving_linebackers/

[Deberg_1990]

Blah, Blah Blah....im so sick of hearing the same crap come out of Guns mouth year after year and seeing no improvement.

We saw the same old mistakes against the run last Thursday we have seen for the past 4 years.

Hit the road Gun.

[dirk digler]

Gretz mentioned something the other day that Harris is likely to be cut. That would be strange since he is going from being a starter last year to being cut before the season even started.

[nychief]

not one mention of Oliver Hoyte! my god!

[Rausch]

Blah, Blah Blah....im so sick of hearing the same crap come out of Guns mouth year after year and seeing no improvement.

No improvement?

Do you watch the ****ing games?

04-07 stats

Total defense:
04 = 31st
05 = 25th
06 = 16th
07 = 13th

Thats yards allowed, EVERY SINGLE YEAR IMPROVEMENT.

Scoring defense:

04 = 29th
05 = 16t (HUGE IMPROVEMENT!)
06 = 21st (backslide)
07 = 14th (HUGE IMPROVEMENT)

So in the only important defensive catagories Gun's defense has improved EVERY SINGLE YEAR other than one (and that was only in scoring.)

Since Gun took over he has more than HALVED our defensive rankings...

[HypnotizedMonkey]

I'll believe it when I see it... in regular season play.

[Deberg_1990]

No improvement?

Do you watch the ****ing games?

04-07 stats

Total defense:
04 = 31st
05 = 25th
06 = 16th
07 = 13th

Thats yards allowed, EVERY SINGLE YEAR IMPROVEMENT.

Scoring defense:

04 = 29th
05 = 16t (HUGE IMPROVEMENT!)
06 = 21st (backslide)
07 = 14th (HUGE IMPROVEMENT)

So in the only important defensive catagories Gun's defense has improved EVERY SINGLE YEAR other than one (and that was only in scoring.)

Since Gun took over he has more than HALVED our defensive rankings...


Yes, i watch the games. Last year we started off decent enough then fell apart the 2nd half of the season and teams were running all over us.

[Rausch]

Yes, i watch the games. Last year we started off decent enough then fell apart the 2nd half of the season and teams were running all over us.

Still our best defensive year in the last 6.

And that's with a bunch of old farts no longer here. The fact that Gun could patch together a bunch of scrubs needing to be cut and still put a respectable D out there should be reason to pat him on the back, not toss uninformed jabs...

[Deberg_1990]

Still our best defensive year in the last 6.

And that's with a bunch of old farts no longer here. The fact that Gun could patch together a bunch of scrubs needing to be cut and still put a respectable D out there should be reason to pat him on the back, not toss uninformed jabs...

Ill continue to slam on Gun, because i dont think hes very good.

Hes a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Stats are nice, but can be very misleading.

[the Talking Can]

every year we get the "gun's got that look in his eyes story".....the "gun's got his guys this time" story...

every year it is a crock of shit

[Rausch]

Ill continue to slam on Gun, because i dont think hes very good.

Hes a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Stats are nice, but can be very misleading.

Defenses that don't allow other teams to score are good.

Offenses that score a lot of points are good.

Is that misleading?

Here's misleading: our starting WR, HB, AND QB all missed at least 6 games last year.

Yet our defense IMPROVED.

You take Harrison, Manning, and Addai out for 6 weeks and I'll bet my next paycheck their defense does not improve over last year...

[BigRedChief]

Before he left his home to catch the Chiefs charter flight here to the northwoods for training camp, Gunther Cunningham told his wife that he had some athletic, fast and quick linebackers going to camp, he just didn’t know if they were tough enough.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
As he backed out of the driveway, Cunningham stopped went back in the house and told his wife he wouldn’t be home until he had some tough linebackers.


I sure like Gunnther's passion.:clap:

[Rausch]

every year we get the "gun's got that look in his eyes story".....the "gun's got his guys this time" story...

every year it is a crock of shit

Is Gun writing the article?

Nein. He's coaching the defense. And it's improving every year.

If the writing isn't improving bitch about the Star's "coordinator."

[Deberg_1990]

Defenses that don't allow other teams to score are good.

Offenses that score a lot of points are good.

Is that misleading?

Here's misleading: our starting WR, HB, AND QB all missed at least 6 games last year.

Yet our defense IMPROVED.

You take Harrison, Manning, and Addai out for 6 weeks and I'll bet my next paycheck their defense does not improve over last year...

Its just excuses. Its a different one every year for this Turd and im tired of it.

Ive seen other teams defenses play well over the years and overcome adversity. Why cant ours?

[chiefbowe82]

A new scheme led by chan gailey
a new qb fast, young, cannon arm
our stud healthy rb with two good backs behind him
a real fb
depth at wr
1st round LT
new rg
new center
healthy line with some depth, consistent at posistions

we should be improved on offense, our defense needs to keep it up

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Its just excuses. Its a different one every year for this Turd and im tired of it.

Ive seen other teams defenses play well over the years and overcome adversity. Why cant ours?

Our offense went 3 and out on 30% of thier possesions for the season. The D was on the field all the F'n time. Of course you are going to give up more points and yards when you face more POSSESIONS.

[Rausch]

Its just excuses. Its a different one every year for this Turd and im tired of it.

Excuses for GETTING BETTER?

Are you not following the conversation?

Is there some business you're trying to conduct that I should wait for you to finish?

Ive seen other teams defenses play well over the years and overcome adversity. Why cant ours?

IT ****ING DID!

Best finish in 6 years AFTER LOSING OUR STARTING QB, HB, AND WR!1!

[the Talking Can]

Is Gun writing the article?

Nein. He's coaching the defense. And it's improving every year.

If the writing isn't improving bitch about the Star's "coordinator."

did I say Gun wrote the article?

less bleeding, more reading....

[Deberg_1990]

Excuses for GETTING BETTER?

Are you not following the conversation?

Is there some business you're trying to conduct that I should wait for you to finish?



IT ****ING DID!

Best finish in 6 years AFTER LOSING OUR STARTING QB, HB, AND WR!1!


Im done argueing over it. Its obvious we have differing opinons of the man and neither is likely to change. I do respect your position though.

[Rausch]

did I say Gun wrote the article?

less bleeding, more reading....

You complained about the "story."

[Rausch]

Im done argueing over it. Its obvious we have differing opinons of the man and neither is likely to change. I do respect your position though.

It's not about the man.

You argued "no improvement."

You're wrong.

I'm not saying he's the be all and end all. With the talent he had I feel he underachieved. The team defense as a whole has gotten better but the individual players have greatly underachieved considering their talents...

[J Diddy]

I'd have to agree with rausch, seems like you all are looking for excuses to hate the man. None to me are present.

[the Talking Can]

You complained about the "story."

yeah, exactly....

look, Gun improved a statistically bad defense to a statistically average defense....

...in 4 years


that doesn't excite me the way it does you, it's ok....

[Deberg_1990]

It's not about the man.

You argued "no improvement."

You're wrong.

I'm not saying he's the be all and end all. With the talent he had I feel he underachieved. The team defense as a whole has gotten better but the individual players have greatly underachieved considering their talents...

OK, makes sense. Perhaps i was a little harsh with the no improvement comment.

Hes still overrated and coasting off accomplishments from 11-13 years ago. Same as Carl.

[dorseybowe]

Yes, i watch the games. Last year we started off decent enough then fell apart the 2nd half of the season and teams were running all over us.

The result of an incompetent offense who couldn't last a minute on the field.

[bishop_74]

Defenses that don't allow other teams to score are good.

Offenses that score a lot of points are good.

Is that misleading?

Here's misleading: our starting WR, HB, AND QB all missed at least 6 games last year.

Yet our defense IMPROVED.

You take Harrison, Manning, and Addai out for 6 weeks and I'll bet my next paycheck their defense does not improve over last year...


You can't please everyone. Let him be upset at Gun. Sometimes people just WANT to be mad.

[Deberg_1990]

Sometimes people just WANT to be mad.

No i dont. I want to win a championship, not stick with recycled old coaches who have never won anything.

[FAX]

Go Guntherific!!! Go!!!

FAX

[J Diddy]

No i dont. I want to win a championship, not stick with recycled old coaches who have never won anything.

um vermeil won a championship

his approach is what landed us in this mess

[Rausch]

yeah, exactly....

look, Gun improved a statistically bad defense to a statistically average defense....

...in 4 years


that doesn't excite me the way it does you, it's ok....

I'm not saying I'm ecstatic with it.

He's underachieved. Clear, cut, and dry. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER.

I do like him and I am pulling for him, but I give him the same deadline as the other two underachievers. I hear there are some contracts coming up.

I want results.

It's not our fault they waited until the 12th hour to rebuild...

[dirk digler]

No i dont. I want to win a championship, not stick with recycled old coaches who have never won anything.

Yep I agree with you and TC. Gun has had multiple chances to fix this D and get it back to Top 10 status and he has failed every time.

I am tired of the excuses and he should have been shit canned along with Solari.

[Rausch]

OK, makes sense. Perhaps i was a little harsh with the no improvement comment.

That's all I was saying.

Hes still overrated and coasting off accomplishments from 11-13 years ago. Same as Carl.

In complete agreement...

[FAX]

Guntherific just needs a couple of playmakers - which we do not have. Every great defense has at least one or two playmakers. You cannot make lemons out of chickencrap. Well, I mean you can try, but you'll have some darn strange tasting lemons that look remarkably as though they've been previously digested by a chicken.

FAX

[FAX]

And another thing.

How many "defensive linemen" have we drafted (to try and build a solid core in the form of a d-line) who have busted like a fat girl's water? Lots. That's how many. You cannot build a defense when you're drafting fat girl's water.

FAX

[Deberg_1990]

um vermeil won a championship

his approach is what landed us in this mess

I agree, but in reality DV was brought here to win a championship in 3-4 years with veteran players.

No one ever expected him to build through the draft.

[CosmicPal]

Guntherific just needs a couple of playmakers - which we do not have. Every great defense has at least one or two playmakers. You cannot make lemons out of chickencrap. Well, I mean you can try, but you'll have some darn strange tasting lemons that look remarkably as though they've been previously digested by a chicken.

FAX

I think D. Johnson can be that playmaker. If Dorsey ends up commanding that defensive line, he'll make the play of our linebackers that much better.

I also think Flowers can/will blossom into a playmaker- I like his maturity and this first year will be his greatest test 'cause he can expect a lot of ball to be thrown his way.

[FAX]

And one more thing.

We've completely changed schemes since Hermoine arrived. This is probably the third scheme these players have been in since Guntherific came back. How difficult is it to create consistency when you're changing schemes like a fat girl's water?

I don't think that metaphor was exactly right, but you catch my meaning.

FAX

[FAX]

I think D. Johnson can be that playmaker. If Dorsey ends up commanding that defensive line, he'll make the play of our linebackers that much better.

I also think Flowers can/will blossom into a playmaker- I like his maturity and this first year will be his greatest test 'cause he can expect a lot of ball to be thrown his way.

True, Mr. CosmicPal. But we haven't seen DJ ascend to that level of play as yet. So, that's still an hypotheticalism. With any luck, Dorsey and Flowers will pan out, but I wouldn't hold my breath given our past history. Hali was supposed to be the man, too. We have sucked so bad at drafting into our defense since DT, it's like a big glass of fat girl's water with a chickencrap lemon twist.

FAX

[CosmicPal]

it's like a big glass of fat girl's water with a chickencrap lemon twist.

FAX

I didn't know fat girls drank water

[dirk digler]

Guntherific just needs a couple of playmakers - which we do not have. Every great defense has at least one or two playmakers. You cannot make lemons out of chickencrap. Well, I mean you can try, but you'll have some darn strange tasting lemons that look remarkably as though they've been previously digested by a chicken.

FAX

BS Fax. When Gun was hired by DV he said there was enough talent it was GR's scheme that was the problem but his D was just as bad as GR.

So then CP signed 3 FA's that Gun wanted and the D still sucked.

And guess what the D still sucks 4 years later while other teams hire new D coordinators and turn them around in 1 year.

Gun needs to be fired over the Internet hopefully after this season.

[FAX]

BS Fax. When Gun was hired by DV he said there was enough talent it was GR's scheme that was the problem but his D was just as bad as GR.

So then CP signed 3 FA's that Gun wanted and the D still sucked.

And guess what the D still sucks 4 years later while other teams hire new D coordinators and turn them around in 1 year.

Gun needs to be fired over the Internet hopefully after this season.

Gutherific is always saying that stuff, Mr. dirk digler. What do you expect him to say, "We suck"? Personally, I think he goes overboard (Kendrell Bell, for example) with his comments, but he has to say something.

As for the FA signings, you're right. Still, these guys have to perform on the field. The great Ty Law, for example, set the record for fall downs during his tenure as a Chief. The only guy who's shown anything of note since Guntherific's return was Allen. Nobody can field a superior defense with inferior players.

FAX

[beach tribe]

Yep I agree with you and TC. Gun has had multiple chances to fix this D and get it back to Top 10 status and he has failed every time.

I am tired of the excuses and he should have been shit canned along with Solari.

We moved up to 13th.

You don't think that maybe if we didn't lead the league in 3 and outs we would have been knocking on, or even been through the door of the top 10?

[HypnotizedMonkey]

chickencraponade... mmm.

[dirk digler]

Gutherific is always saying that stuff, Mr. dirk digler. What do you expect him to say, "We suck"? Personally, I think he goes overboard (Kendrell Bell, for example) with his comments, but he has to say something.

As for the FA signings, you're right. Still, these guys have to perform on the field. The great Ty Law, for example, set the record for fall downs during his tenure as a Chief. The only guy who's shown anything of note since Guntherific's return was Allen. Nobody can field a superior defense with inferior players.

FAX

You're right and Gun picked 3 D players in FA and they all sucked.

My point is he has had his chance multiple times and has failed multiple times.

Is he a cat and does he deserve 9 lives?

[dirk digler]

We moved up to 13th.

You don't think that maybe if we didn't lead the league in 3 and outs we would have been knocking on, or even been through the door of the top 10?

Excuses Excuses Excuses...

When the D was counted on stopping teams they couldn't. Hell we were up what 17 points at home to GB and couldn't stop shit.

I am tired of excuses.

[J Diddy]

I agree, but in reality DV was brought here to win a championship in 3-4 years with veteran players.

No one ever expected him to build through the draft.

quite possibly true
however ignoring your drafts for 3-4 years is what got us into this mess

[beach tribe]

Excuses Excuses Excuses...

When the D was counted on stopping teams they couldn't. Hell we were up what 17 points at home to GB and couldn't stop shit.

I am tired of excuses.

17 points? I don't recall it being that much, and I blame all of that on Ty Law, and 1st year safeties, who hopefully are developing.........Oh, and Jeff Webb should have drug his feet.

[mikey23545]

OK, makes sense. Perhaps i was a little harsh with the no improvement comment.

Hes still overrated and coasting off accomplishments from 11-13 years ago. Same as Carl.

Your hatred is really making you stupid.

[dirk digler]

17 points? I don't recall it being that much, and I blame all of that on Ty Law, and 1st year safeties, who hopefully are developing.........Oh, and Jeff Webb should have drug his feet.

Yeah you are right we were up but not by that much I was thinking of a different game.

It might have been the Eagles game the last year of DV's regime.

Anyway Gun has had multiple opportunities to fix this team and he hasn't produced. I bet this year's D will be worse than last year's.

[Deberg_1990]

Yeah you are right we were up but not by that much I was thinking of a different game.

It might have been the Eagles game the last year of DV's regime.

Anyway Gun has had multiple opportunities to fix this team and he hasn't produced. I bet this year's D will be worse than last year's.

God, that Eagles game cost us a playoff spot. That one and the Giants game in December of 05.

[R&GHomer]

In all fairness, Gun inherited some pretty shitty players when he came back. It takes time to rebuild a defense that bad, but he's had it. The Defense needs to hit the next level and if it doesn't this year, he needs to be shown the door. .

[FAX]

You're right and Gun picked 3 D players in FA and they all sucked.

My point is he has had his chance multiple times and has failed multiple times.

Is he a cat and does he deserve 9 lives?

I don't think Gutherific is a cat, exactly, Mr. dirk digler. More like a moose. With mange. Yep, a mangily moose.

I think the core issues to which you are referring permeate the entire organization. This is a disfunctional football team. We can't seem to do much of anything right. Either we have a good offense and no D or the opposite is the case. We can't draft worth a damn and our FA signings are patchwork and poorly decided on both sides of the ball (last year's o-line, for example). We piss off our best players and keep "character guys" who often behave as though they're play for a paycheck. Sure, we can sacrifice Guntherific and blame him for our woes, but our problems are much, much deeper than his ability to field a stellar defense with no stars.

The mangily moose herd rots from the head, Mr. dirk digler. And this mangily moose herd head is one Carl Peterson.

FAX

[FAX]

...I bet this year's D will be worse than last year's.

I think you're right about that one. This year could be one of the ugliest yet.

FAX

[R&GHomer]

And another thing.

How many "defensive linemen" have we drafted (to try and build a solid core in the form of a d-line) who have busted like a fat girl's water? Lots. That's how many. You cannot build a defense when you're drafting fat girl's water.

FAX

ROFL interesting analogy there Mr. Fax. We sure have drafted some shitty D linemen that's for sure. Vermeil couldn't judge Defensive talent worth a shit.

[FAX]

Yeah. That one kind of got away from me, Mr. R&GHomer.

Nevertheless, the point is that our problems run much deeper than Gunther. This entire franchise needs an enema. I'm very hopeful that Clarkie is up to the task.

FAX

[J Diddy]

I don't think Gutherific is a cat, exactly, Mr. dirk digler. More like a moose. With mange. Yep, a mangily moose.

I think the core issues to which you are referring permeate the entire organization. This is a disfunctional football team. We can't seem to do much of anything right. Either we have a good offense and no D or the opposite is the case. We can't draft worth a damn and our FA signings are patchwork and poorly decided on both sides of the ball (last year's o-line, for example). We piss off our best players and keep "character guys" who often behave as though they're play for a paycheck. Sure, we can sacrifice Guntherific and blame him for our woes, but our problems are much, much deeper than his ability to field a stellar defense with no stars.

The mangily moose herd rots from the head, Mr. dirk digler. And this mangily moose herd head is one Carl Peterson.

FAX


If you start to feel sick and go to the doctor and he gives you some medicine. Do you give up on the medicine immediately? I think the last 2 years we've been doing something different. I think we need to at least play the season before firing people.

Dudes we are 1-0 preseason monsters. Nothing can stop us now.

[el borracho]

Rausch and FAX get it; everyone else?- not so much.

[el borracho]

A treat for the haters:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:x3oVw3886KlELM:http://www.georgeblowfish.com/gunbird.jpg

[dirk digler]

I don't think Gutherific is a cat, exactly, Mr. dirk digler. More like a moose. With mange. Yep, a mangily moose.

I think the core issues to which you are referring permeate the entire organization. This is a disfunctional football team. We can't seem to do much of anything right. Either we have a good offense and no D or the opposite is the case. We can't draft worth a damn and our FA signings are patchwork and poorly decided on both sides of the ball (last year's o-line, for example). We piss off our best players and keep "character guys" who often behave as though they're play for a paycheck. Sure, we can sacrifice Guntherific and blame him for our woes, but our problems are much, much deeper than his ability to field a stellar defense with no stars.

The mangily moose herd rots from the head, Mr. dirk digler. And this mangily moose herd head is one Carl Peterson.

FAX

I agree and that is why I wanted Clark to do an enema on this organization after the season.

IMHO Gun is over his head as DC he did really well as the LB's coach for the Titans and he should stick to being just a position coach.

So if the D sucks again this year does Gun get a free pass again?

Just curious.

[Deberg_1990]

So if the D sucks again this year does Gun get a free pass again?

Just curious.


I can see it now:

"Well, he was playing alot of young players. Rookies. Give him a break. He just needs Pro Bowlers at every position"

[dirk digler]

I can see it now:

"Well, he was playing alot of young players. Rookies. Give him a break. He just needs Pro Bowlers at every position"

Yep. Excuses, excuses, excuses...

[FAX]

I agree and that is why I wanted Clark to do an enema on this organization after the season.

IMHO Gun is over his head as DC he did really well as the LB's coach for the Titans and he should stick to being just a position coach.

So if the D sucks again this year does Gun get a free pass again?

Just curious.

From me? Not exactly free. As you know, Mr. dirk digler, there are lots of factors to consider. What is the offense doing to help the D, are the young players improving, are we making thoughtful, effective adjustments (the mangily moose's Achilles heel, in my view), etc.

If the O is a disaster and consistently puts the D in bad situations (lousy field position, keeping them on the field, and so on), I'll have to give Gunther the benefit of the doubt because you can only do so much. However, if the players don't perform their roles properly, the scheme fails, we continue to fail at stopping the run, we lack the ability to properly adjust to the enemy's game plan, and the young players look lost, I'll be pretty critical.

But I'm not the one I'm worried about. My concern is Clarkie. If we suck this year - really suck - I'm talking about lots of mental errors, players dogging it, and giving up on games, I would hope that Clarkie would, at a minimum, pull Carl out of his GM role. You know, get everyone's attention, set the bar high, and demand excellence. That's what this franchise needs, in my view. We need leadership that's interested in winning a championship. Period.

FAX

[FAX]

I can see it now:

"Well, he was playing alot of young players. Rookies. Give him a break. He just needs Pro Bowlers at every position"

I trust you're not referring to me, Mr. Deberg_1990, because I didn't say that. I said he needs a couple of playmakers. And he does. Who do we have on defense that you can count on in crunch time? Somebody who could bury a quarterback when the enemy is attempting a 4th quarter comeback drive? Somebody who can get you a turnover when you need it? When was the last time we had a couple of players you could say that about?

FAX

[Coogs]

So if the D sucks again this year does Gun get a free pass again?

Just curious.

You know he does. He already has his built in excuse ready this year. Lost his best defender in a trade. Can't be expected to overcome that can he?

[LOCOChief]

Yep I agree with you and TC. Gun has had multiple chances to fix this D and get it back to Top 10 status and he has failed every time.

I am tired of the excuses and he should have been shit canned along with Solari.


Yeah get Greg Robinson back right?

[LOCOChief]

You know he does. He already has his built in excuse ready this year. Lost his best defender in a trade. Can't be expected to overcome that can he?

you've heard the man use that as an excuse have you?

[Coogs]

Before he left his home to catch the Chiefs charter flight here to the northwoods for training camp, Gunther Cunningham told his wife that he had some athletic, fast and quick linebackers going to camp, he just didn’t know if they were tough enough.

As he backed out of the driveway, Cunningham stopped went back in the house and told his wife he wouldn’t be home until he had some tough linebackers.

Well Rene Cunningham, get ready because your husband will be home later this week when the Chiefs break camp and return to Kansas City.[/url]

And BTW, this scares the crap out of me. Everything I have heard or read outside of Claythan has not been real positive on the LB's. Sounds as if the LB position may be the weak link on the defense this season, and that is the position Gun is coaching. Hell, for all we know, tough might mean playing without sleeves in December. :)

[dirk digler]

From me? Not exactly free. As you know, Mr. dirk digler, there are lots of factors to consider. What is the offense doing to help the D, are the young players improving, are we making thoughtful, effective adjustments (the mangily moose's Achilles heel, in my view), etc.

If the O is a disaster and consistently puts the D in bad situations (lousy field position, keeping them on the field, and so on), I'll have to give Gunther the benefit of the doubt because you can only do so much. However, if the players don't perform their roles properly, the scheme fails, we continue to fail at stopping the run, we lack the ability to properly adjust to the enemy's game plan, and the young players look lost, I'll be pretty critical.

But I'm not the one I'm worried about. My concern is Clarkie. If we suck this year - really suck - I'm talking about lots of mental errors, players dogging it, and giving up on games, I would hope that Clarkie would, at a minimum, pull Carl out of his GM role. You know, get everyone's attention, set the bar high, and demand excellence. That's what this franchise needs, in my view. We need leadership that's interested in winning a championship. Period.

FAX

The way I look at Fax is that the D shouldn't be concerned with what the O is doing. They need to go out each and every time with the mindset to dominate and regardless of the situation stop the opposing team. That is what great defenses do. The rest of that is just excuses.

I totally agree with you about Carl but Clark disappointed me when he didn't clean house this off season when he had the perfect opportunity to do so.

[Coogs]

you've heard the man use that as an excuse have you? Not yet. But it's not December when he is going to make his excuse for why the defense didn't get it done again this season.

[dirk digler]

You know he does. He already has his built in excuse ready this year. Lost his best defender in a trade. Can't be expected to overcome that can he?

No according to the Gun lovers.

Every year Gun has a different excuse for why the D sucks this year won't be any different.

[dirk digler]

Yeah get Greg Robinson back right?

:rolleyes:

There is alot of young defensive coaches in the NFL that could do a better job than Gun.

Hell look at Mike Tomlin he was a D-coordinator for 1 year and turned the Vikings D into a Top 10 D and then got a head coaching job.

Gun has been running the D for 5 seasons and can't crack the Top 10.

Excuses walk.

[BigChiefFan]

This still falls back on Carl-he hired him.

[Coogs]

This still falls back on Carl-he hired him.


I agree. And I also think CP encouraged Herm to keep Gun on as DC. Shoot, FAX even posted earlier where Herm and Gun don't believe in the same philosophy/scheme on defense. I have always thought the same on that item. Why would you hire a DC who doesn't want to run the same system? And I know... Herm also interviewed Gun when he was the Jets HC, but Gun's loyalties to the Chiefs was just to much for him to turn down.

[FAX]

The way I look at Fax is that the D shouldn't be concerned with what the O is doing. They need to go out each and every time with the mindset to dominate and regardless of the situation stop the opposing team. That is what great defenses do. The rest of that is just excuses.

I totally agree with you about Carl but Clark disappointed me when he didn't clean house this off season when he had the perfect opportunity to do so.

I agree in principle, Mr. dirk digler. That is, indeed, the mindset you want. But, any defense (regardless of talent, coordinator, or scheme) is going to wear down playing 40 minutes a game. It isn't an excuse, it's reality and it's unavoidable. When your offense makes a run at the NFL record for 3 and outs in a season, your defense is going to suffer.

I completely understand the frustration of Chiefs fans with Gunther. I honestly do. But the reason we have Gunther is part and parcel of an endemic problem that permeates the organization from top to bottom. He was a "safe" hire. The Kansas City Chiefs have a tradition of losing. Pure and simple. We are a failed franchise. Once proud, but no longer. Making Gunther the scapegoat after 40 years of failure isn't the answer. The solution is to correct the underlying problem and that, in my opinion, is leadership that's willing to settle for anything less than a championship.

To my mind, the bigger question is whether or not Herm is the man to turn this thing around or, alternatively, are we just being scammed once again into believing that the Chiefs have learned from past mistakes. That's what I worry about. Everyone's excited about the "youth movement" and "the plan" and watching the young players develop. But, we have a very long way to go before we find out if all this has been little more than another batch of marvelous koolaid custom made for Chiefs fans to enjoy in lieu of a Super Bowl.

FAX

[Deberg_1990]

To my mind, the bigger question is whether or not Herm is the man to turn this thing around or, alternatively, are we just being scammed once again into believing that the Chiefs have learned from past mistakes.


I honestly dont believe Herm will ever win a championship. Playoffs perhaps, but title no. You think hes going to outcoach other AFC playoff coaches??

[Skip Towne]

This whole youth movement thing is just Herm's clever plan to gain himself a couple more years of employment. I want to find out how good he is at finding another job.

[dirk digler]

I agree in principle, Mr. dirk digler. That is, indeed, the mindset you want. But, any defense (regardless of talent, coordinator, or scheme) is going to wear down playing 40 minutes a game. It isn't an excuse, it's reality and it's unavoidable. When your offense makes a run at the NFL record for 3 and outs in a season, your defense is going to suffer.

I completely understand the frustration of Chiefs fans with Gunther. I honestly do. But the reason we have Gunther is part and parcel of an endemic problem that permeates the organization from top to bottom. He was a "safe" hire. The Kansas City Chiefs have a tradition of losing. Pure and simple. We are a failed franchise. Once proud, but no longer. Making Gunther the scapegoat after 40 years of failure isn't the answer. The solution is to correct the underlying problem and that, in my opinion, is leadership that's willing to settle for anything less than a championship.

To my mind, the bigger question is whether or not Herm is the man to turn this thing around or, alternatively, are we just being scammed once again into believing that the Chiefs have learned from past mistakes. That's what I worry about. Everyone's excited about the "youth movement" and "the plan" and watching the young players develop. But, we have a very long way to go before we find out if all this has been little more than another batch of marvelous koolaid custom made for Chiefs fans to enjoy in lieu of a Super Bowl.

FAX

IMO then the offense never wins. First they were scoring to fast and too much and last year they couldn't get enough first downs. So which one is right?

I agree with the rest of your post Mr Fax I don't really care for Herm, Gun or Carl and I am really hoping that at least 2 out of those 3 are gone next year.

[FAX]

I honestly dont believe Herm will ever win a championship. Playoffs perhaps, but title no. You think hes going to outcoach other AFC playoff coaches??

I have very, very serious doubts about Hermoine. Whenever I think of Herm, I smell snake oil. I hope I'm wrong about him since he's the only HC we have right now.

FAX

[The Bad Guy]

Yeah get Greg Robinson back right?

So just because Gunther sucks, does that mean we have to want the guy who sucked worse at his job?

Paul Hackett sucked worse than Mike Solari. That doesn't mean I wanted Hackett back here because Solari sucked.

[Frosty]

But, any defense (regardless of talent, coordinator, or scheme) is going to wear down playing 40 minutes a game. It isn't an excuse, it's reality and it's unavoidable. When your offense makes a run at the NFL record for 3 and outs in a season, your defense is going to suffer.

The Chiefs had an average of 30:01 minutes TOP last season, about mid-pack offensively (#17). I know - it's hard to believe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam?group=Offense&cat=Total&conference=NFL&year=season_2007&sort=534&timeframe=

[FAX]

Dang. Don't tell me my well-thought-out argument is factually flawed. And here I was winning this debate hands down, too. Thanks a lot, Mr. arc.

FAX

[dirk digler]

The Chiefs had an average of 30:01 minutes TOP last season, about mid-pack offensively (#17). I know - it's hard to believe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam?group=Offense&cat=Total&conference=NFL&year=season_2007&sort=534&timeframe=


LMAO

Oops another excuse shot down for the Gun lovers.

[teedubya]

All this talking about water, has made me thirsty.

[the Talking Can]

here's some more (http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/conversation-with-gunther.html#more-908) of the interview that didn't appear to make in this article:

Gun: I think Derrick (Johnson) needs to get stronger. He needs to do some weight room work because he wears down. He practices so darn hard that he becomes a little lethargic the next day. I’ve talked to him about it.

Any chance long term that Derrick Johnson becomes a middle linebacker?

No. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. That’s not his game; he’s an outside linebacker. Although what isn’t ridiculous if the fans notice and don’t know the intricacies of our scheme, he will line up in the middle at times. All of our linebackers are interchangeable parts. To call him a middle linebacker is wrong, but is he going to play in there? Yes, he’s going to play in there. We’ll let everybody else figure out what to call him.

That’s the key to this whole thing. Offensive teams count numbers, and they try to identify who the mike linebacker is. If you look at those three guys, they all look alike. There have been times in practice where I’ve called out ‘Nice play D.J.’ only to look closer and see it was Pat Thomas who made the play.”

You are looking for athleticism, speed and the third thing: do what you’re told.

Most important is do what you’re told. That’s paramount. That’s how the whole thing comes together. The more that happens, the more excited I get. The more I can see these guys do within our scheme, the more I can pull out of the past and put back in the scheme. With these linebackers, there are a lot of things we can do that I have had under wraps for the last few years.

Tell me about some of these young guys that you have, Wes Dacus, LeRue Rumph, now Oliver Hoyte is over there with you. Are there any prospects there? Let’s start with Hoyte. Does he have enough time after making the move from fullback?

The one thing he does have is that the players all love him. He’s a big hitter. You know what he is? He’s a carbon copy of Tracy Simien (Chiefs linebacker 1991-97). We’ve had a couple practices where he has drilled a few offensive linemen, so he brings a lot of maturity to the group. He’s a top-flight special teams player. The one thing we have there is he could always go back to fullback if there’s a problem there if we had any kind of injury. If he’s the six or seventh part of the linebackers crew, then you’ve got something special there.

Of those young guys Dacus is the guy you like the most?

Yes, and Le Rue Rumph has had a good camp too, but in the last four or five days, he’s had a tough time. He probably can’t handle me, that is probably his biggest problem. I tried to love him up a little bit and that didn’t work. I went after him and that didn’t work. So I don’t know what I’m going to do with him. He’s got some good skills and he’s got good character.

[Sully]

All this talk of cleaning house, etc, caused me to wonder.
What the hell happened to Ron Rivera. Guy was supposed to be the next big head coaching hire, and now is only a position coach in SD (right?). Who did that guy piss off? Was he just not that good? Did he crap in some GM's Corinthian Leather chair?

[The Bad Guy]

So asking if he could be a middle linebacker is the most ridiculous thing ever, but then Gunther goes on to say how he lines up in the middle in the defense in some situations?

Hilarious.

[FAX]

So asking if he could be a middle linebacker is the most ridiculous thing ever, but then Gunther goes on to say how he lines up in the middle in the defense in some situations?

Hilarious.

I'm 100% certain that there is some form of spectacular, unfathomable genius at work in that response.

If I could only figure out what.

FAX

[J Diddy]

So just because Gunther sucks, does that mean we have to want the guy who sucked worse at his job?

Paul Hackett sucked worse than Mike Solari. That doesn't mean I wanted Hackett back here because Solari sucked.

after that abortion of an offense last year for you to say hacketts offense was worse is laughable at best

at least we had a ****ing identity

[Hammock Parties]

Blah, Blah Blah....im so sick of hearing the same crap come out of Guns mouth year after year and seeing no improvement.

We saw the same old mistakes against the run last Thursday we have seen for the past 4 years.

Hit the road Gun.

Whoa whoa whoa...the run defense with the first-teamers out there was very good.

[Chief Henry]

The way I look at Fax is that the D shouldn't be concerned with what the O is doing. They need to go out each and every time with the mindset to dominate and regardless of the situation stop the opposing team. That is what great defenses do. The rest of that is just excuses.

I totally agree with you about Carl but Clark disappointed me when he didn't clean house this off season when he had the perfect opportunity to do so.

I too would have loved to have seen Carl swept out the door. I've been anti Carl
since we lost to the f'n Nawlin Saints several years ago. My guess
Clark will let Carl retire on his own terms at the end of his next contract.
I do think Carl is on a much shorter lease with Clark Jr. than with Clark Sr.
I'm guessing Clark jr. WANTS on the field RESULTS - not just results in the
bank account.

[Chief Henry]

after that abortion of an offense last year for you to say hacketts offense was worse is laughable at best

at least we had a ****ing identity



I beleave it was called the "Can't Hackett" offense :D

[kcxiv]

This whole youth movement thing is just Herm's clever plan to gain himself a couple more years of employment. I want to find out how good he is at finding another job.

They really had no choice but to rebuild. Everyone got old in a hurry. I dont think its Herms clever plan, it was the only plan left.

[kcxiv]

The Chiefs had an average of 30:01 minutes TOP last season, about mid-pack offensively (#17). I know - it's hard to believe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam?group=Offense&cat=Total&conference=NFL&year=season_2007&sort=534&timeframe=

I would like to see how much of that is in the first half of the season compared to the 2nd half. First half at times we didnt do all that bad, but once LJ went down, it was over.

[beach tribe]

The Chiefs had an average of 30:01 minutes TOP last season, about mid-pack offensively (#17). I know - it's hard to believe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam?group=Offense&cat=Total&conference=NFL&year=season_2007&sort=534&timeframe=

WOW! I look at the stats of our team, and the stats of the surrounding teams om that chart, and am shocked at our TOP.


I take back everything I said about the D, because there were plenty of times where we could have made stops, and that # would be even higher.

[Frosty]

I would like to see how much of that is in the first half of the season compared to the 2nd half. First half at times we didnt do all that bad, but once LJ went down, it was over.

I doubt there was much difference; maybe a minute or two. The top team in TOP was Pittsburgh at 33:28. The worst was SF at 27:07. The Chiefs' average of 30:01 probably wasn't obtained by having a TOP of 40 minutes the first half of the season and 20 minutes the second half. LMAO