PDA

View Full Version : Football Article about a young QB....


Mecca
08-29-2008, 02:57 AM
Passing judgment: It's too soon to call Leinart's NFL career a bust

Last weekend you might have heard that Matt Leinart stunk it up in the "all-important'' third preseason game, throwing three interceptions in 12 passing attempts against the Raiders and posting a microscopic 2.8 passer rating. Predictably, soon thereafter came the anonymously sourced report he was about to lose his job as the Cardinals starting quarterback. He hasn't yet, but that almost seems besides the point.

Such was Leinart's plight in recent days, and some how, some way, even though we haven't even reached the end of August yet, it has become something of a foregone conclusion his days as the No. 1 in Arizona are indeed numbered. The shorthand has quickly become: Leinart's a failure, and the Cardinals are Kurt Warner's team once again. That judgment made, we moved on to other juicier topics like Michael Strahan's potential un-retirement or whether the four-game preseason has finally out-lived its usefulness.

But hold on just a minute. How exactly did things reach such a crossroads so suddenly for Leinart, the draft's 10th overall pick just two years ago? How is it there's this rush to label his era in Arizona almost ended before it has even begun? And yes, almost before it has even begun is entirely apt. Here are a few reminders that might surprise you in the case of Leinart's still-nascent Cardinals career:

• The former Heisman-winning USC quarterback has started only 16 games in his first two years in the desert, the equivalent of one full regular season. He has missed 12 games due to shoulder injuries -- including last year's broken left collarbone, which ended his season after five starts -- made one relief appearance, and sat the bench for three others.

• Leinart, who turned 25 in May, is 7-9 as a Cardinals starter. That's not a great record by any means, but for a team that has made the playoffs just once (1998) in the past 26 years, it's not too shabby. By comparison, in games Leinart hasn't started the past two years, Arizona is 6-10.

• To be sure, Leinart's meltdown against Oakland last Saturday night was hide-the-children's-eyes ugly. But he had passer ratings of 114.1 and 108.9 in the Cardinals' previous two preseason games, with one touchdown pass and nary a turnover. Again, Leinart this year is returning from a major injury to his left shoulder, which is no trivial issue for a guy who makes his living with his left arm.

• Lastly, a check of Leinart's career numbers show he is well within the statistical norm for a young quarterback still learning his craft. He has thrown for 3,194 yards in those 16-plus games, with a 56.0 completion percentage, 13 touchdowns, 16 interceptions and a 71.2 passer rating. As a rookie in 2006, he had 100-plus passer ratings in three of his final six starts, and threw for an NFL rookie-record 405 yards in a November game at Minnesota. But in the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately NFL, especially in this age of instant analysis, can anyone even remember back that far?

All in all, it hardly adds up to anything that makes Leinart worthy of a hasty assignment to the scrap heap. While one can rightfully claim the 37-year-old Warner probably gives the Cardinals a better chance of winning games right now, Arizona head coach Ken Whisenhunt at the least will be keeping Leinart on a very short leash when it comes to the starting role. The quick take that has morphed into conventional wisdom is it was Leinart's job to lose, and he appears to be losing it.

But even if that is the case, and Leinart doesn't wind up starting Week 1 this season, I'm amazed so many seem to have already reached the conclusion he can't possibly end up succeeding in Arizona. What we've seen so far certainly shouldn't relegate him to failure status at the tender age of 25, with just those 16 starts under his belt. That's way too harsh, way too soon, and lacking in anything resembling long-term perspective.

Thinking about Leinart's deteriorating situation this week led me to recall another highly regarded collegiate quarterback from California, who, like Leinart, was drafted in the NFL's top 10 and then struggled for the better part of his first three seasons before finding his stride in the league. Both Leinart, who went 10th in 2006, and Trent Dilfer, selected 6th by Tampa Bay in 1994, were the second quarterbacks taken in their draft classes, behind Tennessee's Vince Young (No. 3) and Washington's Heath Shuler (No. 3), respectively.

I was a Bucs beat writer covering the young Dilfer, who started just two games as a rookie in '94, and then made all 16 of Tampa Bay's starts in 1995. In his first 18 often-ragged NFL starts, Dilfer threw for five touchdowns, 24 interceptions, absorbed 55 sacks, completed 52.7 of his passes for 3,207 yards, and compiled QB abysmal ratings of 36.3 and 60.1 in those two seasons. In other words, his career got off to a considerably worse start than Leinart's, with both passers happening to toil for long downtrodden, non-winning franchises.

Judging by the first two years of his career, Dilfer should have been toast as an NFL quarterback. A complete first-round bust. But a funny thing happened on his way to infamy. By his third season, in 1996, Dilfer was respectable. By year four, he was an NFC Pro Bowl quarterback, and Tampa Bay was a playoff team for the first time in 15 years. In the seventh season of what would eventually become a 14-year NFL career, Dilfer started and won a Super Bowl with Baltimore. So when Dilfer sees Leinart's struggles today, few can understand and empathize to the degree he can.

"Sixteen starts into his career, to have people already saying he doesn't have it, that's ludicrous,'' the recently retired Dilfer told me in a phone interview this week. "For a quarterback in this league, it really takes about 40 starts until you can truly see and evaluate someone. Until then, in trying to make a judgment about a guy, you're being way too subjective.''

In his new post-playing days career as one of ESPN's multitude of NFL analysts, Dilfer is preparing to make weekly top-of-the-head pronouncements about the highs and lows of players around the league, especially the always-under-the-microscope set: the quarterbacks. But he knows better than most the pithy comment and the, ahem, snap judgment is often an invitation to be wrong when it comes to young quarterbacks and their far-from-pretty-to-watch learning process.

"The major thing I see in general about young quarterbacks are that the expectations are too high, too soon, and because of that, how they get evaluated and the perspective of those evaluating them is a little warped,'' said Dilfer, who retired this offseason after spending the past two seasons backing up yet another struggling young quarterback, 2005 first overall pick Alex Smith in San Francisco. "You're expecting to see third or fourth-year polish on someone who's just not there yet.

"It was really into my fourth year in Tampa before I realized I could play in this league, and understood what it took to be successful. I was just awful up until 40 starts or so. Those first two years, it was bad. I didn't do much of anything particularly well. But a lot of these questions just can't be answered until further down the line.''

Dilfer takes pains to note he's not saying Leinart necessarily deserves to play ahead of the more productive Warner right now, or that Arizona will retard his development if they don't keep him as their starter for all 16 games this season. He concedes "the guy in front of him is probably better right now, and Leinart probably would be better off for sitting a while this year.''

But when he hears the judgments being passed about Leinart's still-formative NFL game, he can't help but point out the fallacies he believes are being employed by those who have rushed to label Leinart a failure.

"They keep talking about his lack of arm strength, but if that was the only component, you think people wouldn't have given up on Steve Young early on, or even Joe Montana?'' Dilfer said. "Are you kidding me? Those guys didn't have big arms, but that didn't stop them from being Hall of Fame quarterbacks.

"If you get to start your career with a couple years on the bench before you have to play, like a Tony Romo or a Steve McNair or a Chad Pennington, then you can judge them quickly when they get their chance to play. But to be thrown in the fire as a rookie quarterback in this league, and be judged on just your body of work for your first 16 games or so, that's ludicrous.''

Dilfer estimates it took until at least midway through his third season -- when he was approaching his 30th career start -- until he started playing fast enough to keep up with the rapid speed in which the NFL game unfolds. That's when his hesitancy decreased and more of his instinctual play surfaced. In short, he had seen enough action to have mental pictures of what has to happen on the field to execute successfully at quarterback. You can't really know what it looks like until you've endured the trial and error phase of learning the position, and many young highly touted quarterbacks never get the luxury of playing their way through that often unsightly process.

"There's no freedom to fail any more for the young quarterback in the NFL,'' Dilfer said. "And every young quarterback has to have some freedom to fail. They can be told and shown what to work on, but when they fail at it, it can't be the end of the world. It's part of the learning curve. You need the freedom to learn from those failures, and learn how to get back up.

"What's happened with Matt, and Alex Smith, and David Carr in Houston is that when they made mistakes, they've had their teammates, the fans, the media and their coaches all talking about it so much that every mistake has been magnified. They've never been given the freedom to be rough around the edges for a while. And a quarterback who is tentative and afraid of making mistakes is a quarterback who will never be playing at maximum potential.''

In Leinart's case, the bar of expectation has been so high in part because he was supposed to have entered the NFL as pro-ready as any quarterback in recent memory. USC is basically the NFL's 33rd franchise, right? And the Trojans' pro-style and sophisticated offense was ideally suited to Leinart making a quick transition to a league where the passing game reigns supreme.

But it hasn't been quick enough to keep the stench of failure away from Leinart, or buy him enough time to finish the maturation process he's still in the middle of. And now, with the pressure starting to truly build on Leinart in Arizona, Dilfer sees a young player who has lost confidence and can almost hear the clock ticking on his franchise-quarterback opportunity.

"It's information overload for a lot of young quarterbacks, and that leads to not playing fast and a lack of decisiveness,'' Dilfer said. "When you're not decisive, many times you just haven't seen everything out there on the field that you need to see. You haven't had enough reps yet. You can't just grip it and rip it. That leads to a lack of fundamentals and overall sloppiness.''

And that leads to another young quarterback in crisis mode. And usually to the bench. Which is where many believe Leinart is soon headed. It has been yet another quick trip to a crossroads for a first-round quarterback. In the NFL, the journey from draft-day prospect to a suspect career seems to get faster all the time.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 03:00 AM
And Pete Carroll offered this as to why he thinks Leinart is struggling..

Leinart is still waiting for one from head coach Ken Whisenhunt, who is keeping all of us guessing, not just Leinart and Warner.

While I was listening to The Dan Patrick Show, an interesting subject came to light when Patrick was interviewing Leinart's college coach, Southern California's Pete Carroll.

Carroll was responding to the idea of naming Warner the starter over Leinart. Carroll expressed his disappointment for Leinart, and then offered a gem some of us might have overlooked.

He suggested that Whisenhunt's "tough love" approach is probably not the best way to keep Leinart motivated and on top of his game.

"Matt was in a situation where they didn't know what they felt about him and where he had to show up and prove it and make a big statement that he was the guy, and that might have not let him be at his best," Carroll said. " . . . Because when Matt wasn't our starting quarterback and he was battling Matt Cassel, he wasn't very good.

"The day we told him we're going to give you the chance to be the starter, he looked at us and there was a twinkle in his eye like, 'You're never going to regret it,' and we never did."

It goes back to what Leinart told a reporter last year when he said he wanted the Cardinals to sink or swim with him as The Man.

doomy3
08-29-2008, 05:15 AM
Who gives a shit?

Mecca
08-29-2008, 05:18 AM
He was drafted the same year Croyle was.....it's all relative...

He's the one being put in the funky spot, even Croyle is being given much more of a chance than he is...I just thought people would like to know there is a team that handles a QB worse than Herm Edwards does.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 05:37 AM
He was drafted the same year Croyle was.....it's all relative...

He's the one being put in the funky spot, even Croyle is being given much more of a chance than he is...I just thought people would like to know there is a team that handles a QB worse than Herm Edwards does.

16 starts is less of a chance than 6 starts?

Interesting.

beach tribe
08-29-2008, 05:51 AM
16 starts is less of a chance than 6 starts?

Interesting.

I don't ever remember Croyle ever throwing 3ints in 12 passes.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 05:56 AM
I don't ever remember Croyle ever throwing 3ints in 12 passes.

Me either.

I don't remember Croyle missing 11 games due to injury either.

But Croyle, who's missed a game and a half, is the injury prone one...

RibKing67
08-29-2008, 06:01 AM
I feel like I need to go Mr Robinsons neighborhood.... Boys and girls can you say double standard?

Hammock Parties
08-29-2008, 06:02 AM
I don't ever remember Croyle ever throwing 3ints in 12 passes.


Me either.

I don't remember Croyle missing 11 games due to injury either.

But Croyle, who's missed a game and a half, is the injury prone one...

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8919/clapag4.gif

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:04 AM
16 starts is less of a chance than 6 starts?

Interesting.

Whoa Whoa Whoa....most of his starts came under Dennis Green.....when I say worse position picture this..

What the Cardinals have done would be like if Croyle started the first 5 or 6 games this year then benched him for Huard, then in the next preseason declared it an open competition again.

They've created a situation where neither QB is comfortable they are constantly looking over their shoulder in fear of 1 mistake sending them to the bench no one can play their game.

Once you go to the young guy you stick with that you don't go back to the vet you create all sorts of issues that way.

It's example of Ken Whisenhunt literally having no idea what he's doing. When Leinart was undoubtedly the guy under Green he played better.....so what Carroll says has some truth to it.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:04 AM
Me either.

I don't remember Croyle missing 11 games due to injury either.

But Croyle, who's missed a game and a half, is the injury prone one...

Broken Collarbone is 1 injury and doesn't compare to..two blown knees and a torn labrum.....

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:08 AM
Also when I say I want to see something from Brodie Croyle..

• Threw for 200 yards or more in eight of his first 11 starts in 2006; completed 60% or more of his passes in five of his final six starts.
• In 2006, became the first Cardinals quarterback since Jake Plummer in 2001 to have three games in a season with a 100+ quarterback rating (all were in his final six starts of ’06).
• Became the first rookie in NFL history to throw for over 400 yards in a game when he passed for 405 at Minnesota on 11/26/06. The previous league record belonged to Plummer who threw for 388 yards against the New York Giants on 11/16/97.
• Leinart's 2,547 yards passing in 2006 also broke Plummer's franchise rookie record of 2,203 yards, set in 1997.
• Became first QB in NFL history to throw two TD passes in the first quarter of each of his first two games when he did it vs. Kansas City and Chicago.

Leinart did all that in his rookie year...which is more than Croyle I don't think there is an argument there...

It's just an example that Ken Whisenhunt and the Arizona Cardinals have 0 idea of how to properly handle a QB, especially this specific one.

Hammock Parties
08-29-2008, 06:10 AM
Broken Collarbone is 1 injury and doesn't compare to..two blown knees and a torn labrum.....

IN THE NFL

DIPSHIT

RibKing67
08-29-2008, 06:10 AM
Broken Collarbone is 1 injury and doesn't compare to..two blown knees and a torn labrum.....

Brodie hurt his hand that is less of an injury than a broken collarbone. I cant think of another injury Brodie has suffered in the NFL.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:11 AM
Um injury history doesn't begin and end at the NFL level, I'd tell you Adrian Peterson is injury prone because he's missed games due to injury 3 consecutive years now...

Honestly saying any player is more injury prone than Croyle is laughable. Atleast tell me he has a better arm than Leinart since that one is true.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:12 AM
Brodie hurt his hand that is less of an injury than a broken collarbone. I cant think of another injury Brodie has suffered in the NFL.

I guess if a dude crushed his spine in a college game that shouldn't count either.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 06:33 AM
Broken Collarbone is 1 injury and doesn't compare to..two blown knees and a torn labrum.....

None of which has happened in the NFL...

This whole "injury prone" shit is overboard from some people, inlcuding yourself.

Playing QB in the NFL, there's a huge risk of injury REGARDLESS of history.

Leinart didn't have much of an injury history at USC, and what has that gotten him?

Croyle's missed a game and a half, and let's face it, he missed because of the coaching staff, not the injury itself.

He took a shot and finished the game he suffered the bruised kidney in - so don't tell me that he wouldn't have played the following week had be been given the chance. Pretty obvious that the staff had no intention, and honestly, really no reason to play him. Why risk it?

He was going to get pulled in the Detroit game anyway, and played the following week.

He's yet to miss any substantial time, yet people want to harp on his injurues. There were quite a few QB's who missed a LOT more time than Croyle did last year. Are they all injury prone as well?

Cry me a ****ing river.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:37 AM
If you are honestly going to tell me Croyle isn't injury prone I will have a really hard time taking much of what you say seriously....that is far and away his biggest knock.

I'm sorry life doesn't begin and end at the NFL, if a guy got hurt a bunch in college that is a horrible sign since the NFL game is even more physical. You can give me any view you want ANY VIEW, but for the love of god saying Croyle isn't injury prone is like saying well 400 carries don't affect a RB.

I know people wanna support Croyle but cmon on be realistic. He has a number of questions to answer 1 of which is the fact that he gets injured all the time. It's not like his injuries are all little knicks.....he's had both his knees surgically reconstructed and torn a labrum, those are significant injuries all which ended his seasons.

You can tell me my view is wrong about anything in the world but not this one, dude is injury prone.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 06:43 AM
If you are honestly going to tell me Croyle isn't injury prone I will have a really hard time taking much of what you say seriously....that is far and away his biggest knock.

I'm sorry life doesn't begin and end at the NFL, if a guy got hurt a bunch in college that is a horrible sign since the NFL game is even more physical. You can give me any view you want ANY VIEW, but for the love of god saying Croyle isn't injury prone is like saying well 400 carries don't affect a RB.

I know people wanna support Croyle but cmon on be realistic. He has a number of questions to answer 1 of which is the fact that he gets injured all the time. It's not like his injuries are all little knicks.....he's had both his knees surgically reconstructed and torn a labrum, those are significant injuries all which ended his seasons.

You can tell me my view is wrong about anything in the world but not this one, dude is injury prone.

He got injured all the time IN COLLEGE.

There are players that NEVER got hurt in college that are hurt ALL THE TIME in the pros.

I'm not going to knock the kid for something that hasn't effected this team as of yet. He could go his entire career without a serious injury.

He could dislocate his hip tit****ing Kelli tonight.

Point being, until an injury of his has an effect of this team, in the NFL, I'm not going to speculate on what MAY or MAY NOT happen based on HISTORY.

Tiger's Fan
08-29-2008, 06:45 AM
If you are honestly going to tell me Croyle isn't injury prone I will have a really hard time taking much of what you say seriously....that is far and away his biggest knock.

I'm sorry life doesn't begin and end at the NFL, if a guy got hurt a bunch in college that is a horrible sign since the NFL game is even more physical. You can give me any view you want ANY VIEW, but for the love of god saying Croyle isn't injury prone is like saying well 400 carries don't affect a RB.

I know people wanna support Croyle but cmon on be realistic. He has a number of questions to answer 1 of which is the fact that he gets injured all the time. It's not like his injuries are all little knicks.....he's had both his knees surgically reconstructed and torn a labrum, those are significant injuries all which ended his seasons.

You can tell me my view is wrong about anything in the world but not this one, dude is injury prone.

You're not grasping the fact that Croyle hasn't been injury prone IN THE NFL! And at this point, he's a hell of alot better than Leinart, even in respect to injury. To watch Leinart play today, he's a certified bust, no question.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:46 AM
You're not grasping the fact that Croyle hasn't been injury prone IN THE NFL! And at this point, he's a hell of alot better than Leinart, even in respect to injury. To watch Leinart play today, he's a certified bust, no question.

To be fair they're about the same neither guy is lighting it up and they both have incompetent coaching.

Of course one guy is a bust and the other isn't due to the uniforms they wear.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 06:48 AM
You're not grasping the fact that Croyle hasn't been injury prone IN THE NFL! And at this point, he's a hell of alot better than Leinart, even in respect to injury. To watch Leinart play today, he's a certified bust, no question.

I was with you until you called Leinart a bust.

Everyone knows where I stand, 16 games isn't enough.

But no one wants to give young QB's the time they actually NEED.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:50 AM
I don't really think either of these QB's is in a good spot to succeed....Leinart is being undermined by his own coach and Croyle has Herm Edwards and Dick Curl....

I posted what Leinart accomplished as a rookie starter all very positive things, Green is fired, they hire a coach who brings in an offensive system that doesn't fit him, then he wants to play a 40 year old QB. It just well reeks of Arizona.

If Croyle compiles a list this year that resembles that Leinart list I'll be very encouraged by his play.

Tiger's Fan
08-29-2008, 06:56 AM
To be fair they're about the same neither guy is lighting it up and they both have incompetent coaching.

Of course one guy is a bust and the other isn't due to the uniforms they wear.

The difference being, one was a first rounder, with an insane $ contract. The other, a third rounder, on the cheap, with no financial setback to the club if he fails. Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a worse coach in the league than Herm.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 07:00 AM
The difference being, one was a first rounder, with an insane $ contract. The other, a third rounder, on the cheap, with no financial setback to the club if he fails. Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a worse coach in the league than Herm.

Even Herm isn't dumb enough to start the young QB then bench him and keep going back and forth....

Leinart was perfect for the WCO that Denny Green ran they honestly should have never fired him. Leinart obviously has physical limitations but he was perfect for the coach who drafted him...but once again Arizona is Arizona and doesn't understand that I guess so they're cool with flushing money.

All I know is as an owner if I was looking for a head coach and he told me he was going to run an offense my QB that was just drafted last year couldn't play in, I'd call him a moron and tell him to get out and never come back.

Tiger's Fan
08-29-2008, 07:01 AM
I don't really think either of these QB's is in a good spot to succeed....Leinart is being undermined by his own coach and Croyle has Herm Edwards and Dick Curl....

I posted what Leinart accomplished as a rookie starter all very positive things, Green is fired, they hire a coach who brings in an offensive system that doesn't fit him, then he wants to play a 40 year old QB. It just well reeks of Arizona.

If Croyle compiles a list this year that resembles that Leinart list I'll be very encouraged by his play.

Leinarts been replaced by a guy who is a former MVP, superbowl winning QB, who is clearly better in every facet of the game. Croyle didn't start last year in favor of a guy who is a career backup, and until recently , hadn't started a game in almost a decade. You tell me who the coaching nightmare is.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 07:02 AM
Leinarts been replaced by a guy who is a former MVP, superbowl winning QB, who is clearly better in every facet of the game. Croyle didn't start last year in favor of a guy who is a career backup, and until recently , hadn't started a game in almost a decade. You tell me who the coaching nightmare is.

By that theory Eli Manning should have been benched 2 years ago...when you make that switch and the young guy is playing you can't go back, Tom Coughlin knew that, Ken Whisenhunt apparently doesn't.

Tiger's Fan
08-29-2008, 07:37 AM
By that theory Eli Manning should have been benched 2 years ago...when you make that switch and the young guy is playing you can't go back, Tom Coughlin knew that, Ken Whisenhunt apparently doesn't.

Warner wasn't "clearly" better than Eli to the point he is better than Leinart. Dude, I'm just bustin yer balls. I just hope Brodie can compete, and become a decent QB in the league. The juries still out on that, same with Leinart. You, on the other hand need Croyle to fail just to save face. Not sure why you have this hardon for Croyle, and at the same time defend Leinart to the enth degree. Must be an SC thang. I'm not advocating Reesing for Chiefs QBOTF. Lets try and keep these things seperate.

Buehler445
08-29-2008, 09:06 AM
Hmm lots of good discussion in this thread. I like it. Here are my conclusions.

Mecca, you should stop baggin on Brodie so much. Given some of your statements in this thread, I'd almost think you were pulling for the guy. Some guys might give you a little grief, but if you support the kid, I don't think your world will end. You can say that you are concerned about "X" but you still want Brodie to do well, I think your comments would be taken better, but I'm not going to tell you how to post and I don't think anyone doubts your football knowledge.

Injuries
I think it is safe to say both QBs have an injury history. They're different histories, but they are both a concern for their team.

Coaching
Wow, I feel bad for both these guys. Pitsburgh doesn't look so bad for overlooking Whiz to replace the chin.

Both coaches need to get a ****ing clue. Both of these kids are going to need time to develop independent of any competition. We saw it last year when Brodie tried to force things in preseason.

Posted via Mobile Device

L.A. Chieffan
08-29-2008, 09:14 AM
If Brodie went to SC we'd probably be getting articles posted from Mecca about how we need to be patient.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 10:10 AM
If Brodie went to SC we'd probably be getting articles posted from Mecca about how we need to be patient.

Points for paying attention these past 2 years...

Micjones
08-29-2008, 10:14 AM
Also when I say I want to see something from Brodie Croyle..

• Threw for 200 yards or more in eight of his first 11 starts in 2006; completed 60% or more of his passes in five of his final six starts.
• In 2006, became the first Cardinals quarterback since Jake Plummer in 2001 to have three games in a season with a 100+ quarterback rating (all were in his final six starts of ’06).
• Became the first rookie in NFL history to throw for over 400 yards in a game when he passed for 405 at Minnesota on 11/26/06. The previous league record belonged to Plummer who threw for 388 yards against the New York Giants on 11/16/97.
• Leinart's 2,547 yards passing in 2006 also broke Plummer's franchise rookie record of 2,203 yards, set in 1997.
• Became first QB in NFL history to throw two TD passes in the first quarter of each of his first two games when he did it vs. Kansas City and Chicago.

Leinart did all that in his rookie year...which is more than Croyle I don't think there is an argument there...

It's just an example that Ken Whisenhunt and the Arizona Cardinals have 0 idea of how to properly handle a QB, especially this specific one.

Oops... Said too much.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 10:24 AM
Oops... Said too much.

Again, you want to base everything on stats, without putting them in context.

Using a hypothetical example, it would be akin to this:


Lets say Darren McFadden is universally thought of as the best RB in the class. A team like the Patriots, that throw the ball 75% of the time drafts him, and his numbers are awful at the end of the season. He's been limited by the system the Patriots run - not taking advantage of his talents.

On the other hand, another, un-named, less thought of RB is drafted by a run-heavy team, like Pittsburgh, and excels.

Is it McFadden's fault he isn't being used properly?

Leinart's in an offense that focuses on stretching the field - and they should, seeing who they have as WR's. Leinart SHOULD throw for 300 yards a game - the offense depends on it.

Croyle is being asked to be a game manager. Is that HIS fault? Do you really think he's NOT CAPABLE of stretching a defense if he was asked?

I'd love to see what the kid could, or couldn't do in an offense like NE's, Cincinnati's, or a Martz run offense. (just examples)

Mecca
08-29-2008, 01:11 PM
He did all of that under Green and the WCO....he actually is not a fit for a stretching the D O and the coach apparently doesn't care...Leinart is a horrible fit for that offense that's on the coach and the team..

And to be frank I'd rather Croyle be good than suck, I just don't think he will, let's not confuse the too. I don't sit around pulling for any guys on the team to blow. But I'm not going to throw my objective opinion of them out the window either.

Deberg_1990
08-29-2008, 01:18 PM
Wow, didnt realize just how decent an 06 Leinart had.

Some coaches are just waaaay too stubborn. I can understand why Whisenhunt would not be 100% in Leinarts corner since he didnt draft him but he should also use some common sense.

Would you ask Rich Gannon to anchor the downfield Mike Martz offense??

Mecca
08-29-2008, 01:21 PM
Wow, didnt realize just how decent an 06 Leinart had.

Some coaches are just waaaay too stubborn. I can understand why Whisenhunt would not be 100% in Leinarts corner since he didnt draft him but he should also use some common sense.

Would you ask Rich Gannon to anchor the downfield Mike Martz offense??

It's just a classic example of what I'll tell you and fully believe....NFL head coaches are morons, they think they are so much smarter than everyone else that they are to stubborn to see something everyone else can see.

They also believe in systems to much, players win games, not systems.

Valiant
08-29-2008, 01:39 PM
Also when I say I want to see something from Brodie Croyle..

• Threw for 200 yards or more in eight of his first 11 starts in 2006; completed 60% or more of his passes in five of his final six starts.
• In 2006, became the first Cardinals quarterback since Jake Plummer in 2001 to have three games in a season with a 100+ quarterback rating (all were in his final six starts of ’06).
• Became the first rookie in NFL history to throw for over 400 yards in a game when he passed for 405 at Minnesota on 11/26/06. The previous league record belonged to Plummer who threw for 388 yards against the New York Giants on 11/16/97.
• Leinart's 2,547 yards passing in 2006 also broke Plummer's franchise rookie record of 2,203 yards, set in 1997.
• Became first QB in NFL history to throw two TD passes in the first quarter of each of his first two games when he did it vs. Kansas City and Chicago.

Leinart did all that in his rookie year...which is more than Croyle I don't think there is an argument there...

It's just an example that Ken Whisenhunt and the Arizona Cardinals have 0 idea of how to properly handle a QB, especially this specific one.


All that and he still somehow has been given less of a chance then Brodie??

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 01:40 PM
They also believe in systems to much, players win games, not systems.

This I agree with COMPLETELY.

Look at Mangini - changes to a 3-4 defense and completely renders his best defensive players useless.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 01:40 PM
All that and he still somehow has been given less of a chance then Brodie??

Green gave him all that, since they switched coaches he hasn't been afforded much of anything.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 01:44 PM
Green gave him all that, since they switched coaches he hasn't been afforded much of anything.

While I don't agree with it, I can certainly understand WHY Whisenhunt is playing Warner.

To save his ass.

Whisenhunt has no ties to Leinart - didn't draft him - probably doesn't care for his partying, etc - so why would you risk your job on letting a young QB grow, that you have no ties to?

ML may or may not become a decent QB. But it's probably safe to say we may not find out until either a new HC comes in, or Leinart's playing somewhere else...

Mecca
08-29-2008, 01:49 PM
Pretty much, I'd take Leinart on the Chiefs but that's because the Chiefs throw short passes they aren't a vertical passing team.

I don't get the Whisenhunt shit why is there pressure to win now? It's ****in Arizona how are they under pressure to win now and not develop a QB?

I just think Whisenhunt is stupid, Ben Roethlisberger pretty much hates that guy so there's that...

Deberg_1990
08-29-2008, 01:51 PM
ML may or may not become a decent QB. But it's probably safe to say we may not find out until either a new HC comes in, or Leinart's playing somewhere else...

Ill bet Gruden is salivating for when Leinart becomes available. He loves scrapheap QB's and for the most part has a good record with them.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 01:52 PM
Ill bet Gruden is salivating for when Leinart becomes available. He loves scrapheap QB's and for the most part has a good record with them.

Perfect fit for his system too....

The truth is Arizona is the poster child for how you should not handle a QB. How can you hire a head coach that wants to run a system your QB can't play in? They should have told him to get lost the minute he told them that.

Deberg_1990
08-29-2008, 01:55 PM
Arizona might be the worst run organization in the NFL.

Their record and playoff history speaks for itself.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 01:56 PM
Pretty much, I'd take Leinart on the Chiefs but that's because the Chiefs throw short passes they aren't a vertical passing team.

I don't get the Whisenhunt shit why is there pressure to win now? It's ****in Arizona how are they under pressure to win now and not develop a QB?

I just think Whisenhunt is stupid, Ben Roethlisberger pretty much hates that guy so there's that...

AS a new HC, there's ALWAYS pressure to win now.

Especially in Arizona, where for the last 3 years, they were/are supposed to be the "surprise" team of the league.

Ownership deserves the blame. They drafted ML, then brought in a coach that basically took the ball out of his hands. They knew this coming in.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 01:56 PM
Arizona might be the worst run organization in the NFL.

Their record and playoff history speaks for itself.

Ken Whisenhunt is Mike Mularkey part 2........good OC in Pittsburgh completely awful head coach.

ChiefsCountry
08-29-2008, 02:57 PM
Arizona might be the worst run organization in the NFL.

Their record and playoff history speaks for itself.

Bidwell's make David Glass look like Steinbrenner.

OnTheWarpath15
08-29-2008, 02:59 PM
Bidwell's make David Glass look like Steinbrenner.

ROFL

Valiant
08-29-2008, 03:24 PM
Green gave him all that, since they switched coaches he hasn't been afforded much of anything.

And yet that is still more then what Croyle has seen yet..

Hootie
08-29-2008, 03:27 PM
Mecca sticks up for USC at all costs on the Chiefs board...and bashes the Chiefs at all costs...it's just how he is. If this franchise ever turns it around I have a feeling we won't see much of Mecca...unless someone from USC busts in the pros...then we'll here why it wasn't the player's fault, it was the coaches...

Mecca
08-29-2008, 03:29 PM
Mecca sticks up for USC at all costs on the Chiefs board...and bashes the Chiefs at all costs...it's just how he is. If this franchise ever turns it around I have a feeling we won't see much of Mecca...unless someone from USC busts in the pros...then we'll here why it wasn't the player's fault, it was the coaches...

Do you really think Leinart has been handed properly....it's pretty obvious Whisenhunt is a moron.

But on the flip side are you still upset that that I told you LJ would rapidly decline after being overworked and it's true? I don't say anything about the Chiefs that isn't true....I don't sit around hoping they suck that would be a waste of time. I'm honest about what they are. I don't rip on any good players..

Some people take the things I say way to far.

Deberg_1990
08-29-2008, 03:34 PM
Mecca, whats your take on Reggie Bush??

Is he exactly what he is right now? Or will he ever be better?

Mecca
08-29-2008, 03:44 PM
Mecca, whats your take on Reggie Bush??

Is he exactly what he is right now? Or will he ever be better?

Reggie is what Reggie is...his absolute highest upside is Brian Westbrook but I will no way say he will be that.

Even if he stays what he is right now, that is a player that can assuredly help you win games. He can do everything from play WR, to special teams to RB, you just can't run him up the ass 25 times, that wasn't even done in college with him.

People look at his contract and his draft spot and think he should be Peterson, he isn't that player and I'd have told you that. Bush is a very versatile player that creates huge mismatches and should account for alot of total yards, he had 100 receptions as a rookie. In all likelyhood a player like Bush will have a much longer career than guys like Peterson and LJ.

People just expected way to much, even SC didn't use him as the feature pound guy they used him for what he was a giant mismatch problem that you could hit homeruns with and confuse the defense because teams fear speed.

Hootie
08-29-2008, 03:59 PM
Do you really think Leinart has been handed properly....it's pretty obvious Whisenhunt is a moron.

But on the flip side are you still upset that that I told you LJ would rapidly decline after being overworked and it's true? I don't say anything about the Chiefs that isn't true....I don't sit around hoping they suck that would be a waste of time. I'm honest about what they are. I don't rip on any good players..

Some people take the things I say way to far.

I haven't seen this LJ decline yet...I have though, agreed with you now, and I didn't at the time, that the new contract turned out to be a bad, bad move.

We should've taken that #1 from Green Bay. I now officially realize running backs are a dime a dozen...I'd feel just as comfortable, maybe even better, with a Smith/Charles combo as opposed to LJ as the featured back...

The running backs that succeed have good offensive lines, generally...when LT had a bad line he averaged around 3.9 YPC - 4.2 YPC if my memory serves me correct, and LT is great...

I would never draft a running back in the top 20...people chastise the Lions for taking Cherilus over Mendenhall, and regardless of whether Cherilus will turn out they still got a money back in Kevin Smith later on...

Running backs are the easiest position to draft these days...you can easily find a starter in the 3rd, 4th, 5th round...

The big contract for a RB is going to be a thing of the past over the next decade...we still did get a bargain for LJ considering his back to back 1750 yard seasons...we just didn't need to do it.

But cap wise, I think we're sitting pretty good, don't you? That's the one thing we have going for us...we really don't have any dead money...

Hootie
08-29-2008, 04:01 PM
People rag on Reggie because he's a fantasy bust...but Mecca is right, Bush would be valuable to any team because of his versatility...but he should only be a 3rd down back...a slot WR...and a returner...10 carries, 5 catches, decoy and return specialist...yeah, not what you really want out of a #2 pick but hey, he can still be a gamebreaker he just isn't Barry Sanders like everyone thought he'd be.

Hootie
08-29-2008, 04:03 PM
and mecca, if you think LJ was declining last year...come on...Jim Brown or Walter Payton wouldn't have succeeded in that situation last year...

Get LJ past the line of scrimmage and into the open field and he's still as good as anyone in the league...his size and speed is still every bit as good as it was in 2005 when he was a force to be reckoned with...he just doesn't have the system/supporting cast...

Deberg_1990
08-29-2008, 04:09 PM
Bush would have made an excellent Run and shoot WR.

Heck, they should probably just convert him exclusively to a slot WR.

Mr. Flopnuts
08-29-2008, 04:18 PM
If Brodie went to SC we'd probably be getting articles posted from Mecca about how we need to be patient.

If he played for anyone but the Chiefs sure.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 04:20 PM
If he played for anyone but the Chiefs sure.

That is not remotely true....why can't people stop with that bullshit. I'm completely honest about every single player, that thought would be like saying I'd be happy if the Chiefs had drafted John David Booty.

Mr. Flopnuts
08-29-2008, 04:24 PM
That is not remotely true....why can't people stop with that bullshit. I'm completely honest about every single player, that thought would be like saying I'd be happy if the Chiefs had drafted John David Booty.

It's your soft part Mecca. Everybody knows it and can't help but poke it to watch you squeal like the Pillsbury Dough Boy. It's our revenge when you go truthin on our Chiefs.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 04:32 PM
I wish the Chiefs would draft some SC players, there are tons of guys on that team right now that would make the Chiefs instantly better.

JuicesFlowing
08-29-2008, 04:38 PM
Passing judgment: It's too soon to call Leinart's NFL career a bust


• Leinart, who turned 25 in May, is 7-9 as a Cardinals starter. By comparison, in games Leinart hasn't started the past two years, Arizona is 6-10.



Wow!!! HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!

Skip Towne
08-29-2008, 04:38 PM
I wish the Chiefs would draft some SC players, there are tons of guys on that team right now that would make the Chiefs instantly better.

We can't afford them. They are making too much money.

Mecca
08-29-2008, 05:46 PM
Wow!!! HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!

Well atleast he's won a game I guess.

L.A. Chieffan
08-29-2008, 05:49 PM
Since when did this come down to being Leinart vs. Croyle?

Mecca
08-29-2008, 05:58 PM
Since when did this come down to being Leinart vs. Croyle?

I don't really think it is, they were drafted the same year....people just like to throw that at me since I like SC. I just get kind of annoyed when I constantly read "Croyle needs time" then those same people will call Leinart a bust.

Rausch
08-29-2008, 06:19 PM
I don't really think it is, they were drafted the same year....people just like to throw that at me since I like SC. I just get kind of annoyed when I constantly read "Croyle needs time" then those same people will call Leinart a bust.

Leinart has all the tools around him to break out and be a success.

Croyle has mostly tools around him and is forced to somehow be successful despite it...

Mecca
08-29-2008, 06:21 PM
Other than Leinart has a moronic coach that insists on running a scheme he can't play in...the Cardinals line is shaky oh and that same coach undermines him by basically not giving him any leeway.

What you all be happy if everytime Croyle made a mistake he got sat on the bench for Huard?

Deberg_1990
08-29-2008, 06:27 PM
Another funny thing about the Arizona thing is that Warner is pretty dang fragile. Matt will probably end up starting a few games by mid season.