Preface to a Polled Thread: Worst Coaches in Chiefs History

['Hamas' Jenkins]

This is a primary. The three "winners" will advance to the general election, whereby the worst damned Chiefs coach there ever was will be selected.


Hank Stram
Paul Wiggin
Tom Bettis
Marv Levy
John Mackovic
Frank Gansz
Marty Schottenheimer
Gunther Cunningham
Dick Vermeil
Herman Edwards

[Ebolapox]

I know stram and levy by reputation only. pretty good, supposedly (aside from levy being better in buffalo than here: blame that on superior talent)

wiggin and bettis I never heard of. gansz and mackovic I hear sucked. marty was money (if you're ignoring playoffs), gun was a disaster, vermiel was alright, and let's not get into herm.

so, three worse? mackovic, gansz, and wiggin

and that's uninformed.

[DaneMcCloud]

Tom Bettis followed closely by Frank Gansz and Paul Wiggin.

[DaneMcCloud]

I know stram and levy by reputation only. pretty good, supposedly (aside from levy being better in buffalo than here: blame that on superior talent)

wiggin and bettis I never heard of. gansz and mackovic I hear sucked. marty was money (if you're ignoring playoffs), gun was a disaster, vermiel was alright, and let's not get into herm.

so, three worse? mackovic, gansz, and wiggin

and that's uninformed.

Those of us old-timers that were around in 1978-1982 heard that Marv Levy was the worst coach of All-Time.

He was roasted far more than Wiggin or Bettis.

[Ebolapox]

Those of us old-timers that were around in 1978-1982 heard that Marv Levy was the worst coach of All-Time.

He was roasted far more than Wiggin or Bettis.

see, I knew I shoulda wiki'd it. that's just lazy.

what was his problem here? was it an issue of not having the talent, being a horrible coach, or just not being ready for the spotlight? was he like belichek, a horrible coach here who blossomed in buffalo (blame it on kelly, reed, thomas, and smith)?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

see, I knew I shoulda wiki'd it. that's just lazy.

what was his problem here? was it an issue of not having the talent, being a horrible coach, or just not being ready for the spotlight? was he like belichek, a horrible coach here who blossomed in buffalo (blame it on kelly, reed, thomas, and smith)?

He ran the ****ing Wing T in the pros.

[DaneMcCloud]

see, I knew I shoulda wiki'd it. that's just lazy.

what was his problem here? was it an issue of not having the talent, being a horrible coach, or just not being ready for the spotlight? was he like belichek, a horrible coach here who blossomed in buffalo (blame it on kelly, reed, thomas, and smith)?

He was essentially Herm Edwards in a white package.

Marv's strategy was ongoing joke around town. Here's what it was (and remember, this was the 70's):

First down: BBL
Second down: BBM
Third down: BBR
Fouth down: WBK

[cdcox]

From someone who has seen them all.

Ganz


Wiggen
Bettis






Herm
Gunther




Mackovic





Levy















Vermeil


Marty










Hank

[cdcox]

He ran the ****ing Wing T in the pros.

And his offense rushed for almost 3000 yards using it.

It wasn't anything like the Herm/Chan Slash (your wrists) option.

[DaneMcCloud]

And his offense rushed for almost 3000 yards using it.

It wasn't anything like the Herm/Chan Slash (your wrists) option.

What year was that?

[cdcox]

What year was that?

1978. His first year. 2986 yards with Tony Reed, Ted McKnight, and Arnold Morgado.


He was also coached the Chief's during the Joe Delaney years. Over 2600 yards team rushing in Joe's rookie year.

[DaneMcCloud]

1978. His first year. 2986 yards with Tony Reed, Ted McKnight, and Arnold Morgado.


He was also coached the Chief's during the Joe Delaney years. Over 2600 yards team rushing in Joe's rookie year.

Thanks. I remember all those guys, especially Ted McKnight (my Dad later played softball with him at Miller's Field).

So my "playbook" above was absolutely dead-on.

[Rain Man]

And his offense rushed for almost 3000 yards using it.

It wasn't anything like the Herm/Chan Slash (your wrists) option.


Wow. I think we've just found our name for the Chiefs offense.

[ClevelandBronco]

Wow. Except for two guys (and one guy after he was gone) that's one hell of an ugly list.

[cdcox]

Wow. Except for two guys (and one guy after he was gone) that's one hell of an ugly list.

You dissing Hank, Marty, or DV?

[Rain Man]

From someone who has seen them all.

Ganz


Wiggen
Bettis






Herm
Gunther




Mackovic





Levy















Vermeil


Marty










Hank


I'm roughly in agreement here, with a few exceptions:

1. I would put Gansz above Wiggin and Edwards in part due to the fact that Gansz could coach the heck out of special teams, and Wiggin inherited a better (albeit aging) team than Gansz did. After the Indianapolis game last year, the only reason Herm isn't at the bottom is that I'm still giving him some as-yet-unearned credit for bringing in some good talent.

2. I would put Bettis at a neutral position since he was only an interim coach and had no real chance to put his stamp on the team. Anyone below Bettis had more bad than good qualities, and anyone above has more good than bad qualities.

3. I know Levy has a lot of Lamar Hunt trophies, but Mackovic was the guy who got the Chiefs back into the playoffs after the dark ages. If not for the Gansz revolt, I think he would've kept improving that team (though admittedly Gansz' special teams were the strongest part of it).




Wiggin

Herm






Gansz






Bettis
Gunther



Levy
Mackovic














Vermeil

Marty








Hank

[Skip Towne]

Marty and Hank won exactly the same number of games for the Chiefs. But Marty had to deal with the union. Hank didn't

[cdcox]

I'm roughly in agreement here, with a few exceptions:

1. I would put Gansz above Wiggin and Edwards in part due to the fact that Gansz could coach the heck out of special teams, and Wiggin inherited a better (albeit aging) team than Gansz did. After the Indianapolis game last year, the only reason Herm isn't at the bottom is that I'm still giving him some as-yet-unearned credit for bringing in some good talent.

2. I would put Bettis at a neutral position since he was only an interim coach and had no real chance to put his stamp on the team. Anyone below Bettis had more bad than good qualities, and anyone above has more good than bad qualities.

3. I know Levy has a lot of Lamar Hunt trophies, but Mackovic was the guy who got the Chiefs back into the playoffs after the dark ages. If not for the Gansz revolt, I think he would've kept improving that team (though admittedly Gansz' special teams were the strongest part of it).




Wiggin

Herm






Gansz






Bettis
Gunther



Levy
Mackovic














Vermeil

Marty








Hank

Ganz ranks worst to me because it was obvious within the first half of his first season that the special teams wonder boy was in over his head. He took a playoff team to two 4-12 seasons. Also it turned out that many of his inspirational stories were exagerations or outright lies.

Wiggin was terrible. Hank's last 2 years were pretty rough so I don't think he was inheriting much but Mr. H'Wiggins did nothing to right the ship.

In my rankings, Bettis probably got caught up in the wash. That whole end of Stram through Bettis era was just a big fat festering pile of putrid rotting McDonald's hamburgers with stale cokes spilled on them, mixed with used feminine hygine products.

I never ever wanted Herm. I'm trying to be fair in that I think he inhereted a team destined to crash and burn. If he coached the same team 100 years he would take his team to the playoffs 40% of the time, but would never win one superbowl during that time.

My Levy over Mackovic ratings are probably influenced by their respective performances after they left the Chiefs. I always liked Levy. He took a hopeless 2-12 team to a scrappy 4-12 team, followed by seasons of 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. Then the stinking strike broke our momentum and Levy was out.

[ClevelandBronco]

You dissing Hank, Marty, or DV?

I'm dissing Vermiel. Never had much use for him.

[Rain Man]

Ganz ranks worst to me because it was obvious within the first half of his first season that the special teams wonder boy was in over his head. He took a playoff team to two 4-12 seasons. Also it turned out that many of his inspirational stories were exagerations or outright lies.

Yeah, he definitely crashed that team as a head coach. I'm probably corrupting the vote because I dearly, dearly, dearly loved his special teams.

Wiggin was terrible. Hank's last 2 years were pretty rough so I don't think he was inheriting much but Mr. H'Wiggins did nothing to right the ship.

Yeah. I always imagine him inheriting a team where everyone retired at once, but he had Dawson, Rudnay, Tyrer, Buchanan, Lanier, Lynch, Taylor and other strong players for his first year or two.

In my rankings, Bettis probably got caught up in the wash. That whole end of Stram through Bettis era was just a big fat festering pile of putrid rotting McDonald's hamburgers with stale cokes spilled on them, mixed with used feminine hygine products.

As a child, this was more traumatic than learning about death. Especially with the feminine hygiene products mixed in there.

I never ever wanted Herm. I'm trying to be fair in that I think he inhereted a team destined to crash and burn. If he coached the same team 100 years he would take his team to the playoffs 40% of the time, but would never win one superbowl during that time.

I must admit that I was hopeful for Herm, even though I despise giving up draft picks for coaches. I was wrong. Very, very wrong. I just want him out of here.

My Levy over Mackovic ratings are probably influenced by their respective performances after they left the Chiefs. I always liked Levy. He took a hopeless 2-12 team to a scrappy 4-12 team, followed by seasons of 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. Then the stinking strike broke our momentum and Levy was out.

You wonder how history would've been different without that strike. I wonder if he would've built the same team in KC that he built in Buffalo. I still would've hated Thurman thomas, though.

[milkman]

Ganz ranks worst to me because it was obvious within the first half of his first season that the special teams wonder boy was in over his head. He took a playoff team to two 4-12 seasons. Also it turned out that many of his inspirational stories were exagerations or outright lies.

Wiggin was terrible. Hank's last 2 years were pretty rough so I don't think he was inheriting much but Mr. H'Wiggins did nothing to right the ship.

In my rankings, Bettis probably got caught up in the wash. That whole end of Stram through Bettis era was just a big fat festering pile of putrid rotting McDonald's hamburgers with stale cokes spilled on them, mixed with used feminine hygine products.

I never ever wanted Herm. I'm trying to be fair in that I think he inhereted a team destined to crash and burn. If he coached the same team 100 years he would take his team to the playoffs 40% of the time, but would never win one superbowl during that time.

My Levy over Mackovic ratings are probably influenced by their respective performances after they left the Chiefs. I always liked Levy. He took a hopeless 2-12 team to a scrappy 4-12 team, followed by seasons of 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. Then the stinking strike broke our momentum and Levy was out.

I don't believe there is one point made here I have have even the slightest bit of disagreement with.

[Skip Towne]

I don't believe there is one point made here I have have even the slightest bit of disagreement with.

Me either. It's really easy to get shitty coaches. We've done it over and over. I'm just afraid we'll keep doing it and I don't have that much time left. I'm selfish I guess.

[teedubya]

I went with Herm because... I ****ing hate that assclown... never wanted him to coach the Chiefs, and if I ever see Carl Peterson again face to face, Ill tell what a ****ing assclown both of them are.

[Skip Towne]

I went with Herm because... I ****ing hate that assclown... never wanted him to coach the Chiefs, and if I ever see Carl Peterson again face to face, Ill tell what a ****ing assclown both of them are.

I just want it to stop. Do other franchises put up with this shit?

[DaneMcCloud]

I just want it to stop. Do other franchises put up with this shit?

No, Skip.

None have ever had to endure a 9-7 season, then a 4-12 season then an 0-2 start.

Ever.

[Spott]

I don't remember any coaches before Marv, but Gansz was probably the worst that I've seen. Mackovic was ok and the team was fairly fun to watch back then, unlike the current team.

[FringeNC]

I don't remember the pre-Levy days, so starting with him...

The bottom four are obviously Herm, Mackovic, Ganz, and Cunningham. After being fired, at least Mackovic had a little success as a college coach. Ganz and Cunningham may have had jobs as coordinators afterwards, and in Gunther's case, he has been a disaster. Obviously, Herm will never get another NFL HC job, and probably not a college job either. He'll do something in a front office. Scratch Mackovic off the list for some later success, and the bottom three are:

Ganz
Cunningham
Herm

I'd take Rich Kotite over any of them.

Nowadays, a head coach doesn't have to do all that much other than choose coordinators, motivate the team, and decide the aggressiveness of play-calling/game-plan, both on O and D. I'm guessing Herm delegates less authority to his coordinators than any HC in the league, which is one of his problems. His other huge problem is his defining trait, which is his lack of aggressiveness, his play-not-to-lose style.

By the way, is there a coach in the NFL who is ridiculed as much nationally as Herm Edwards? To anyone who isn't a Chiefs' fan (and most of us, too), the mention of the name "Herm Edwards" produces laughter or scorn. I wonder why that is? Is it that the average football is unable to understand the brilliance that is Herm Edwards?

[okcchief]

I was a wee lad when Levy coached the Chiefs and I do remember us sucking balls then. However, I don't think it could all be laid on him since he had success with the Bills later on.

In my memory, Ganz was by far the worst. He was among the most clueless head coaches I have ever seen. Herm is a ****ing genius next to Ganz. Though I still consider Herm a complete inept piece of shit.

I really can't even comment on the guys between Hank and Marv as I don't remember them.

[cdcox]

I really can't even comment on the guys between Hank and Marv as I don't remember them.


Life is full of blessings if you know where to look for them.

[chagrin]

1978. His first year. 2986 yards with Tony Reed, Ted McKnight, and Arnold Morgado.


He was also coached the Chief's during the Joe Delaney years. Over 2600 yards team rushing in Joe's rookie year.

Tony Reed! That's the dude who autographed a pic for me when I was 9 years old...that made me a CHIEFS fan, still gets me all choked up

[chagrin]

I still think that you're too hard on Gunther as HC; he did run it on 3 and 31 against Pittsburgh that year, and converted. His O made Elvis look like a pretty damn good play action QB with DA and went 8-8. Herm won't ever sniff 8-8 here as HC, it has to be Herm or Gansz...

[DaneMcCloud]

I still think that you're too hard on Gunther as HC; he did run it on 3 and 31 against Pittsburgh that year, and converted. His O made Elvis look like a pretty damn good play action QB with DA and went 8-8. Herm won't ever sniff 8-8 here as HC, it has to be Herm or Gansz...

Herm was 9-7 in 2006.

While I realize that's not 8-8, it is better.

[Tiger's Fan]

Herm was 9-7 in 2006.

While I realize that's not 8-8, it is better.

So he took a 10-6 team, and made it into a 9-7 team. Hurray Herm!

[DaneMcCloud]

So he took a 10-6 team, and made it into a 9-7 team. Hurray Herm!

Minus Trent Green AND more importantly, Willie Roaf.

Way to watch the program, numbnuts.

[Tiger's Fan]

Minus Trent Green AND more importantly, Willie Roaf.

Way to watch the program, numbnuts.

You're a dedicated Herm cumguzzler and I'm the numbnuts?

[Stewie]

Paul Wiggin by far. The guy was inept as a coach. Hell, he had John Elway as QB when he coached at Stanford (after his Chiefs stint) and couldn't do shit. The one redeeming thing in football history he has to hang his hat on is that he was the Stanford HC when Cal did the multi-lateral kick return to win the game. I still grin.

[Coach]

Let's remind each other that the 80's Chiefs were not a winning team to begin with, when Herman ******ing Edwards came to KC, where the Chiefs was in the running for playoff spots.

How can a head coach take charge of a winning team and a amazing offense, and just ruin it in less than two seasons into historic porportions?

[milkman]

Let's remind each other that the 80's Chiefs were not a winning team to begin with, when Herman ******ing Edwards came to KC, where the Chiefs was in the running for playoff spots.

How can a head coach take charge of a winning team and a amazing offense, and just ruin it in less than two seasons into historic porportions?

I don't like Herman ****ing Edwards gameday coaching, and I suspect he's a piss poor admistrator, which I think is crucial to overall success as a HC, but the fact is, the Chiefs team he took over, while not bad, weren't really good either, and they were aging, with recent bad drafts, and headed for a downward spiral.

While another HC might not have reached this level of pathetic, this team was going to decline regardless of who took over.

[Brock]

So he took a 10-6 team, and made it into a 9-7 team. Hurray Herm!

Dick Vermeil thought that 10-6 team was on the verge of such great things, he QUIT.

[Coach]

I don't like Herman ****ing Edwards gameday coaching, and I suspect he's a piss poor admistrator, which I think is crucial to overall success as a HC, but the fact is, the Chiefs team he took over, while not bad, weren't really good either, and they were aging, with recent bad drafts, and headed for a downward spiral.

While another HC might not have reached this level of pathetic, this team was going to decline regardless of who took over.

Yes, I'm aware the fact that they were aging, with piss poor choices and that they were going to head on a downward spiral.

The argument that I am making though is any other HC would have at least have this team playing better than what they are capable of, IMHO.

[milkman]

Yes, I'm aware the fact that they were aging, with piss poor choices and that they were going to head on a downward spiral.

The argument that I am making though is any other HC would have at least have this team playing better than what they are capable of, IMHO.

You may be right, but that is pure speculation.
Nothing more.

[Coach]

You may be right, but that is pure speculation.
Nothing more.

I'm aware that it is pure speculation, but everybody is saying that the talent on this team really sucks, where I disagree.

I strongly believe that the coaching philosophy is really stunting the young players growth. It's like we're the Ohio St. football team going up aganist the NFL.

[milkman]

I'm aware that it is pure speculation, but everybody is saying that the talent on this team really sucks, where I disagree.

I strongly believe that the coaching philosophy is really stunting the young players growth. It's like we're the Ohio St. football team going up aganist the NFL.

I agree with you, though this team still needs more talent.

[FringeNC]

I think the Sagarin rankings, which take into account factors such as strength of schedule and game stats, is very telling:

2008 24*
2007 26
2006 19
2005 7
2004 9
2003 5
2002 7

* we'll be much lower soon, not enough games yet to properly calculate a rating

If indeed the loss of Willie Roaf explains the whole decline from 2002-2005 to 2006, he's the most valuable player in the history of the NFL. My money is on the loss of Roaf AND the hiring of Herm Edwards.

[whoman69]

He ran the ****ing Wing T in the pros.

He had no quarterback or receivers.

[whoman69]

Gansz was obviously the worst pick as coach. You don't take someone who has been a special teams coach his whole career and promote him to HC. Wiggin took over a team that was on its way down. Bettis was an interim coach. Herm Edwards is trying to play the game like its still the '70s. He took one of the most powerful offenses in the league and neutered it. He wants the defense to take over the game but gives up on time of possession big time.

[MichaelH]

I voted Hermie earlier today WAYYY before today's game. I am so glad to be right. If you local KC residents don't hunt him down and show him the way back to his hole then you deserve a similar fate that haunts the Royals.

[007]

Herm makes them all look genius.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Bump.

[Ultra Peanut]

I voted for Hank Stram because he was so good he matriculated all the way back around to awful.

[cdcox]

Bump.

Bump?

What kind of dumbass are you? You need to get some perspective.

I grow tired of seeing people have ****ing meltdowns over the fact that Herm sucks when it's been an established fact since he pissed away the Jets-Steelers game way back in '04 the week after trying but failing to piss away the Jets-Charges game the week before. He sucks, get over it.

Bump? What the hell for?

[KCChiefsMan]

my bad, wasn't trying to steal your thunder Hamas. Just never saw the poll I guess

[Reerun_KC]

Bump?

What kind of dumbass are you? You need to get some perspective.

I grow tired of seeing people have ****ing meltdowns over the fact that Herm sucks when it's been an established fact since he pissed away the Jets-Steelers game way back in '04 the week after trying but failing to piss away the Jets-Charges game the week before. He sucks, get over it.

Bump? What the hell for?

But he beat Marty.... He was a FG away from something, He once beat the Colts 41-0...

Herm is god's gift to the playoffs, didnt you get the memo?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

my bad, wasn't trying to steal your thunder Hamas. Just never saw the poll I guess

Hell, I wasn't bumping it for that reason. I think it might be interesting to see the difference in results.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Bump?

What kind of dumbass are you? You need to get some perspective.

I grow tired of seeing people have ****ing meltdowns over the fact that Herm sucks when it's been an established fact since he pissed away the Jets-Steelers game way back in '04 the week after trying but failing to piss away the Jets-Charges game the week before. He sucks, get over it.

Bump? What the hell for?

I am who you thought I was. And that's why I started the damn thread. If you wanna flame me, then flame my ass. But I am who you thought I was!!

[Reerun_KC]

I am who you thought I was. And that's why I started the damn thread. If you wanna flame me, then flame my ass. But I am who you thought I was!!

Is prostution legal on Chiefsplanet?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Is prostution legal on Chiefsplanet?

Is the server in Wichita?

[chiefsngop]

I have mixed feelings about Dicky V.

Yeah, if him & Carl could've constructed any kinda defense at all, we very well were Super Bowl bound.

And yeah, this team was sooo old and in disaray after he left; it was gonna take some serious work to get us back on track. -- But most of that blame has to go Carl's way doesn't it ??

So Dicky V is definetly not one of the True Greats to patrol the Arrowhead sidelines, but I do remember how awesome it felt to walk into Arrowhead knowing that we had, at the least, a real opportunity to beat ANYBODY ANYTIME. Didn't matter who we were playing, the opportunity to hang 45-50 points on their ass was there.

And after this last few years of Herm dumbassery, I'd sure take that old feeling of "we have a real chance to beat anybody."