Question for Donks fans

[FringeNC]

Shanahan has turned over your roster quite a bit the last few years, and had some good drafts.

Given that some of this board want to give Herm a get out of jail free card for rebuilding, it'd be interesting to see to what extent the Broncos' roster makeover compares to the Chiefs' roster makeover.

I'm guessing Shanahan has turned over that roster as much as we have turned over ours, and has drafted better.

It seems to me that the Broncos are a case study in how to reload, not rebuild, and we are a case study of how a well-managed franchise joins the Detroit Lions of the world.

[Tombstone RJ]

Before you give Shanny too much credit, remember it's taken him 10 years to find a QB who can run his offense. In that 10 years, the Broncos have gone through a number of starting QBs including Griese, Buerleine(sp), Frerotte(sp), Plummer and Shanny tried like hell to get Steve Young too.

I'm betting you team would look a heck of alot better, right now, if you had a good QB running the show. Is Croyle that QB, I doubt it. He simply cannot stay healthy.

If KC ownership is going to retain Peterson, then he should have one job this off season, and one job only: find a QB either in the draft or a trade.

Peterson's next job should be putting a great oline in front of that QB, and then getting a defense that will keep KC in games.

It all starts with the QB and Shanny knew this, and that is why he drafted Cutler. Fortunately for the Broncos, Cutler seems to be the right QB for this system.

[Kaylore]

Shanahan hasn't always done well, but one thing he's done that's helped is he gets lots of depth. Even when the Broncos "sucked" they've been pretty good, like 7-9 good. And that's because he's good a finding depth. The other thing Shanahan does well is try and address issues before they become big problems. We drafted Ryan Harris last year and he's starting on a line that hasn't given up a sack. We took Ryan Clady this year to replace Lepsis. We took Cutler before Plummer was gone even though Plummer still had some in the tank left. Shanahan has a pretty good idea of where the team is going to begin to struggle and he tries and fixes it early.

The thing I don't get with the Chiefs is they seem to have no foresight. Everyone "knew" the Roaf was getting old and about to retire and yet they never really made an effort to find someone to replace him. Then you guys bring in Gunther and don't try and find help for him his first year in KC. Then a season later, when your offense is already imploded you try and patch up the D. By the time you get the D turned around your offense is so crappy it doesn't matter. Same thing this last draft. Everyone knew you guys needed help at QB and still Peterson does nothing. I understand wanting to put your faith in Croyle (well sort of) but what harm would it have been to take a QB project instead of the stiff at TE, for example? Lots a holes on this team could have been filled if Peterson didn't wait to fix the barn door after the horse got out.

That doesn't mean the Chiefs haven't had good picks or that Denver is some juggernaut of drafting. Certainly early on Shanahan made some stupid picks, but he's improved there and he does enough to field a competitive team.

[Skip Towne]

Herm needs a "get out of town" card really bad.

[sedated]

the broncos struck gold with the 2006 draft: Jay Cutler (1), Brandon Marshall (4), Tony Sheffler (2), Elvis Dumervil (4), and Chris Kuper (5). And they traded their 2nd rounder for Jevon Walker.

That's also after they went 13-3. Proof you don't need to suck bawls to rebuild.

[StcChief]

the broncos struck gold with the 2006 draft: Jay Cutler (1), Brandon Marshall (4), Tony Sheffler (2), Elvis Dumervil (4), and Chris Kuper (5).
yep.... We've only struck Fool's Gold in our drafts

[Molitoth]

yep.... We've only struck Fool's Gold in our drafts

eh, I think our picks of talent are fine... its the coaching and game plan that makes everyone look bad. Herm just sucks.

[blueballs]

the rat is coach and gm
and pretty much the oc

[OctoberFart]

the broncos struck gold with the 2006 draft: Jay Cutler (1), Brandon Marshall (4), Tony Sheffler (2), Elvis Dumervil (4), and Chris Kuper (5). And they traded their 2nd rounder for Jevon Walker.

That's also after they went 13-3. Proof you don't need to suck bawls to rebuild.

If you average 3 starters per draft your team will become very good as long as you have the proper QB in place. Donks draft above there is striking gold.

[Nzoner]

BS call or not I gotta give the rat credit last week for going for 2 and the win,way to send a message to your team that you believe in them and that you've got some stones.

I could never see herm doing something like that.

[sedated]

If you average 3 starters per draft your team will become very good

well, getting starters isn't as much of a problem and getting pro-bowl starters

[Garcia Bronco]

the rat is coach and gm
and pretty much the oc

John Goodman is the GM, and J Bates is calling the plays.

M Shanahan is the VP of Football Operations and Head Coach.

[sedated]

John Goodman is the GM

i thought he was dead

[Freekofnature]

I'm just wondering who will be the offensive player that breaks out in this game...

Maybe the running backs finally?

[Garcia Bronco]

i thought he was dead

Jeff Goodman

[Buck]

Jeff Goodman

You mean John?

[Mile High Mania]

Well, prior to the 2006 draft... there were more misses than hits "as a whole" with the draft classes. Shanahan took more risks with picks and FAs than I care to review... and this goes back to the late 90s, not just the last 6-8 years.

If there were ever a problem, then a coach or player was let go and became the scapegoat - right or wrong, that's what happened.

The last few years, things began going right for Denver. The drafts have been better and the FA picks have been better, less risky to a degree.

That being said - this defense still has holes, it's not playing like a top 12 defense at all... and if it weren't for Ed's bad whistle and a few plays against the Saints, this team *could* be 1-2 and everyone would be cursing the defense AND pointing out that twice in the last 2 weeks, Denver has turned the ball over VERY late and VERY close to the endzone.

I'm not saying they've been nothing but lucky, offensively they look very good right now, but you have to be good and you have to be lucky for things to go your way. Right now, they're a bit of both which is why I have said here (and on other sites) that fans of the predominantly orange and blue should temper their enthusiasm a bit. Yes, it's great that they are 3-0, but I've seen this before and I want the defense to play better and I want to see fewer games being in question in the final 2 minutes.

The thing I like about Shanahan is that he has not been content... he lets RBs go after having great season and reloads. I like that he's a gambler and with Cutler, I love the fact that we are seeing plays that have been missing for a decade.

As for rebuilding or reloading, I look at it like this... I do think they have rebuilt without having to truly suck for a few years. In 2005 (just about 2 seasons and 3 games ago), the Broncos were 13-3 and lost to the Steelers in the AFC Title game.

Skill Position Starters in 2005:
QB - Plummer
RB - Mike Anderson / Tatum Bell
WR/TE - Rod Smith / Ashley Lelie / Jeb Putzier

The Oline is totally different as is the Dline (I believe)...

In just 35 regular season games ... you have nothing left from that 2005 roster (from the guys above, there are obviously still guys there from 2005), and in those 35 games, the Broncos are 19-16 overall. So, they are 3 games over .500 while churning that 2005 roster entirely.

In 2006, they were tied for 2nd with KC in the AFCW (total wins 9).
In 2007, they were 2nd in the AFCW (7 wins)
In 2008, 3-0 and a healthy lead

Denver has been a little luck with the fact that Oakland and KC haven't surpassed them really the last two years and this roster churning is starting to prove successful.

[Kaylore]

1. John Goodman isn't dead.

2. Jim Goodman is in charge of the draft and free agency. He works with his son, Jeff on the draft and Brian Xanders is primarily responsible for free agents and contract work. Xanders also helps work the cap.

3. Jeremy Bates is pretty much running the offense right now. He scripts and calls the plays, though they are all from Shanahan's playbook.

Shanahan has veto power, but one of the biggest things he's done is cede a lot of that power to other people and that's a big part of why Denver has improved.

[FringeNC]

Well, prior to the 2006 draft... there were more misses than hits "as a whole" with the draft classes. Shanahan took more risks with picks and FAs than I care to review... and this goes back to the late 90s, not just the last 6-8 years.

If there were ever a problem, then a coach or player was let go and became the scapegoat - right or wrong, that's what happened.

The last few years, things began going right for Denver. The drafts have been better and the FA picks have been better, less risky to a degree.

That being said - this defense still has holes, it's not playing like a top 12 defense at all... and if it weren't for Ed's bad whistle and a few plays against the Saints, this team *could* be 1-2 and everyone would be cursing the defense AND pointing out that twice in the last 2 weeks, Denver has turned the ball over VERY late and VERY close to the endzone.

I'm not saying they've been nothing but lucky, offensively they look very good right now, but you have to be good and you have to be lucky for things to go your way. Right now, they're a bit of both which is why I have said here (and on other sites) that fans of the predominantly orange and blue should temper their enthusiasm a bit. Yes, it's great that they are 3-0, but I've seen this before and I want the defense to play better and I want to see fewer games being in question in the final 2 minutes.

The thing I like about Shanahan is that he has not been content... he lets RBs go after having great season and reloads. I like that he's a gambler and with Cutler, I love the fact that we are seeing plays that have been missing for a decade.

As for rebuilding or reloading, I look at it like this... I do think they have rebuilt without having to truly suck for a few years. In 2005 (just about 2 seasons and 3 games ago), the Broncos were 13-3 and lost to the Steelers in the AFC Title game.

Skill Position Starters in 2005:
QB - Plummer
RB - Mike Anderson / Tatum Bell
WR/TE - Rod Smith / Ashley Lelie / Jeb Putzier

The Oline is totally different as is the Dline (I believe)...

In just 35 regular season games ... you have nothing left from that 2005 roster, and in those 35 games, the Broncos are 19-16 overall. So, they are 3 games over .500 while churning that 2005 roster entirely.

In 2006, they were tied for 2nd with KC in the AFCW (total wins 9).
In 2007, they were 2nd in the AFCW (7 wins)
In 2008, 3-0 and a healthy lead

Denver has been a little luck with the fact that Oakland and KC haven't surpassed them really the last two years and this roster churning is starting to prove successful.

Nice summary. Exactly what I was looking for and the last few paragraphs are why Chiefs' fan should call bullshit on this rebuilding excuse. Denver rebuilt without losing 25 ****ing games in a row. In fact, not a single terrible season.

[Mile High Mania]

The other thing to point out is this ... don't forget WHEN he chose to start Cutler over Plummer. As I recall, the fanbase was split on the move with Denver being 7-4 at the time and still in the hunt. I think there was a mixture of "relief" and "dammit, we're still in the race, why now??"

That was a huge gamble by Shanahan and a signal that he was pretty much giving up on the season, I don't care what anyone says... but, you do that at that point in the season with a rookie and you've cut the legs off a guy like Plummer and you're taking a huge gamble. It has taken 2 seasons to see the fruits of that move, but I'm liking it so far.

[ferrarispider95]

The other thing to point out is this ... don't forget WHEN he chose to start Cutler over Plummer. As I recall, the fanbase was split on the move with Denver being 7-4 at the time and still in the hunt. I think there was a mixture of "relief" and "dammit, we're still in the race, why now??"

That was a huge gamble by Shanahan and a signal that he was pretty much giving up on the season, I don't care what anyone says... but, you do that at that point in the season with a rookie and you've cut the legs off a guy like Plummer and you're taking a huge gamble. It has taken 2 seasons to see the fruits of that move, but I'm liking it so far.

It cost you the playoffs that season. No doubt in my mind, Plummer would have beat San Fran. However, getting cutler in the game time atmosphere early has probably paid more dividends.

[listopencil]

Offing the old GM, Sundquist, seems to have been a great move. It's hard to say but it seems like as Sundquist's influence on the team waned our team got better. IIRC the last conflict our FO had was about drafting Cutler. Sundquist didn't want to do it and the owner moved on w/o him. Now we have this Offense that's winning games for us.

[Kaylore]

It cost you the playoffs that season. No doubt in my mind, Plummer would have beat San Fran. However, getting cutler in the game time atmosphere early has probably paid more dividends.

Plummer came in and played against San Fran and threw an int his second pass. They decided it was better to put a concused Cutler in than a healthy Plummer who was throwing the ball up for grabs.

[listopencil]

Plummer came in and played against San Fran and threw an int his second pass. They decided it was better to put a concused Cutler in than a healthy Plummer who was throwing the ball up for grabs.

Yeah, that was horrible. Plummer at his worst. He had no clue, and really was worse than a concussed Cutler.

[tk13]

This is the NFL, you don't have to lose games to rebuild. It just depends on drafting well, no matter where you draft. But don't get carried away, the majority of people all thought as of 2 years ago this team needed to be gutted, Carl and Herm gone, and we needed to go through a couple of really bad seasons to get some top 10 picks to turn this thing around.

Although if you do it right you can build a solid core... that's what the Colts and Bears did, I think that's what people looked at. They both had numerous years of top 15 picks... and they got guys like Manning, Edge, Harrison, Freeney, pretty much the core of their team. The Bears got guys like Urlacher and Harris. But now both those teams are at a point where they still reload through the draft... getting guys like Bob Sanders in the 2nd round, Robert Mathis in the late rounds, etc.

I sure don't think Shanahan is the model for how to reload a franchise. Great coach, he's done a good job this year... but I'd pick the Colts, Bears, Eagles, etc.. those teams literally let great players walk and just reload through the draft without batting an eyelash.

[Mile High Mania]

Yeah, that was horrible. Plummer at his worst. He had no clue, and really was worse than a concussed Cutler.

I had forgotten about that series of events... thanks for recapping. :deevee:

[Mile High Mania]

This is the NFL, you don't have to lose games to rebuild. It just depends on drafting well, no matter where you draft. But don't get carried away, the majority of people all thought as of 2 years ago this team needed to be gutted, Carl and Herm gone, and we needed to go through a couple of really bad seasons to get some top 10 picks to turn this thing around.

Although if you do it right you can build a solid core... that's what the Colts and Bears did, I think that's what people looked at. They both had numerous years of top 15 picks... and they got guys like Manning, Edge, Harrison, Freeney, pretty much the core of their team. The Bears got guys like Urlacher and Harris. But now both those teams are at a point where they still reload through the draft... getting guys like Bob Sanders in the 2nd round, Robert Mathis in the late rounds, etc.

I sure don't think Shanahan is the model for how to reload a franchise. Great coach, he's done a good job this year... but I'd pick the Colts, Bears, Eagles, etc.. those teams literally let great players walk and just reload through the draft without batting an eyelash.

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but...

The Colts pay their skill players, they have let good players walk, but they don't let stars walk and reload. They've always had their 'core' of greatness pretty much in tact as far as I can recall.

Bears... a bit of the same story, best player on offense that they let go was Thomas Jones, unless I'm forgetting someone. Defensively, they've been able to keep that group pretty much together. Again, I could be missing someone.

The Patriots have been able to reload pretty well.

[tk13]

Well, the Colts let Marshall Faulk go, they let Mike Peterson go, they let Cato June go, Marcus Pollard, Dominic Rhodes, Brandon Stokley, and on and on. Obviously the re-signed their 4-5 key guys... and they can't re-sign everyone, but when they let those guys go, they replace them almost immediately through the draft. Even when Tarik Glenn retired, they had Ugoh ready to go.

[Mile High Mania]

Well... they traded Faulk after Manning's first year, right? They were nothing at that point, then they went on the roll of wins and crazy stats in 1999. That's not really a good example for Indy.

The other guys were good, not great players.

[FringeNC]

This is the NFL, you don't have to lose games to rebuild. It just depends on drafting well, no matter where you draft. But don't get carried away, the majority of people all thought as of 2 years ago this team needed to be gutted, Carl and Herm gone, and we needed to go through a couple of really bad seasons to get some top 10 picks to turn this thing around.

Although if you do it right you can build a solid core... that's what the Colts and Bears did, I think that's what people looked at. They both had numerous years of top 15 picks... and they got guys like Manning, Edge, Harrison, Freeney, pretty much the core of their team. The Bears got guys like Urlacher and Harris. But now both those teams are at a point where they still reload through the draft... getting guys like Bob Sanders in the 2nd round, Robert Mathis in the late rounds, etc.

I sure don't think Shanahan is the model for how to reload a franchise. Great coach, he's done a good job this year... but I'd pick the Colts, Bears, Eagles, etc.. those teams literally let great players walk and just reload through the draft without batting an eyelash.

I agree with you to a certain extent. Couple of points: 1) You don't need to draft in the top 10 to have a good draft. 2) Nothing prevented Edwards from drafting in 2006-2008. He had three drafts.

I just don't understand this blowing the team up thing. Ummmm...it's called a "draft" and it's what every NFL team does every year. Shanahan has completely remade the Broncos from an old contender to a younger contender during the same time Herm has been remaking us into the worst team in the league. You seem like a pretty level-headed knowledgeable fan -- look at what Denver has done, look at what Atlanta is doing, look at what Miami is doing, look at what SF is doing (now that they have a competent OC), and tell me that our effort thus far does any grade but an "F". Everything in the NFL is relative, and relative to other rebuilding efforts, this one is a joke. We're not rebuilding; we're the fricking Detroit Lions South.

[tk13]

I don't disagree. You can go back and read my posts when we'd go through "this team needs an enema" type threads... where people said we needed to be bad for 3-4 years so we could draft another DT, Neil Smith... etc.

You really don't need to do that if you draft well. If you're already a bad team, which is where we are now, then you can use those 2-3 drafts to reload... but there are teams who draft well regardless... like the Colts. Or the Steelers, they reload without ever having many top 10 picks... granted everyone has a down year eventually, and when they did they got Roethlisberger. But I use the Colts and Bears as examples because that's who we're trying to copy, and they get tremendous value out of their late draft picks and undrafted players.

[JuicesFlowing]

BS call or not I gotta give the rat credit last week for going for 2 and the win,way to send a message to your team that you believe in them and that you've got some stones.

I could never see herm doing something like that.

That's exactly what i thought when I watched that game. The Mastermind has balls the size of grapefruits. Wish we had a coach with some guts ....

[FringeNC]

I don't disagree. You can go back and read my posts when we'd go through "this team needs an enema" type threads... where people said we needed to be bad for 3-4 years so we could draft another DT, Neil Smith... etc.

.

And given free-agency, that is doomed strategy anyway. You lose rights to the players by the time you've acquired enough of them. To build in the NFL, you have to have good drafts, fill in holes via free-agency, and find diamonds in the rough. Rationalizing that losing now equals winning in the future doesn't hold. Just ask the Lions.

How many of Vermeil's studs on offense were 1st round draft picks? Not that many. We got 4 years of perhaps the most valuable player in the league for a 3rd round draft pick (Roaf).

[Tombstone RJ]

If you look at the Pats teams, you don't see alot of drafting success. You seen some good picks like Seymore, but not a whole hell of alot of drafting success, certainly not the kind of success you'd link to how much they win.

Where Belichick is successful is bringing in the right FAs. That's where he excels.

[OctoberFart]

If you look at the Pats teams, you don't see alot of drafting success. You seen some good picks like Seymore, but not a whole hell of alot of drafting success, certainly not the kind of success you'd link to how much they win.

Where Belichick is successful is bringing in the right FAs. That's where he excels.

Warren, Seymour, and can't remember the NT right now but he was a draft pick. Vrabel, Samuel, Gay, and a couple S's. Pretty much the whole OL, Brady, Graham, Watson, Branch, Faulk, Maroney. Those are just off the top of my head. They have drafted very well and signed FA's to come in and chip in.

[sedated]

can't remember the NT right now but he was a draft pick.

Wilfork. He was highly regarded but fell to the bottom of the 1st round.

NE has a strict "best player available" draft mentality. They ddin't NEED another DT, but didn't pass on one when it was starring them in the face. Now it's paying dividends.

NE also drafted TE's in the 1st round in consecutive years.

[Mile High Mania]

There's not a lot to fault about the way that NE has built through the draft of FA...

I look at some of those Denver drafts in the early 2000's ... wow, I don't have time to pull the data again, but last year I looked and there was a 3 year period that produced literally nothing.

[Valiant]

the broncos struck gold with the 2006 draft: Jay Cutler (1), Brandon Marshall (4), Tony Sheffler (2), Elvis Dumervil (4), and Chris Kuper (5). And they traded their 2nd rounder for Jevon Walker.

That's also after they went 13-3. Proof you don't need to suck bawls to rebuild.

This is true.. But Carl has never done will at 9-7 or 13-3 in drafts.. It takes him having a top 5 or better to not screw it up..

On that though.. Denver did have some downright horrible drafts before that for a while..