Thoughts on the Chiefs for '09...

[Chris Meck]

I still lurk a bit, but haven't posted in awhile. Now, as I sit watching yet another blow-out at Arrowhead, I've some thoughts to share...

It's time to turn the page on Herm, I think. Not because of the team not being very good (it is a rebuilding phase, after all) but because his judgement has been shown to be unsound.

Carl too. Time for Clark to clean house.

Cowher maybe? sure. He's a winner. He likes to play defense and run the ball, which although it's sometimes unexciting football, in an outdoor midwestern stadium is a pretty good recipe for always being tough to beat. The thing that got me about Pittsburgh was that they always restocked well.

Whoever it is, they'll need a QB. In fact, they'll need 3.

I think a clean break is neccessary. No more Huard, no more Croyle, and no more Thigpen.

I'd look at bringing in a Carr/Harrington type to be your veteran back-up/reclamation project. Talented guys, not too old, drafted by terrible teams and probably ruined. You never know, though, and sometimes a change of scenery helps those guys. Just ask Jim Plunkett. Or Kerry Collins.
But you're not counting on them for anything other than a back-up.

I think you have to make pre-draft trades to move Tony Gonzales and Larry Johnson. I don't care what you get for them, you need to move them both, for different reasons. Gonzo doesn't want to be here, and has earned the right to go to a contender. LJ has proven to just be too immature and a distraction.

I think you have to draft Matt Stafford in the first. I don't think you have any choice, unless you're working a deal somehow for maybe Brady Quinn. I don't like drafting QB's in the first, I've been against it forever. I think the franchise has no choice.

[Reerun_KC]

More of the same if Herm is still here..

He is a proven loser... Nothing will change that...

[TrickyNicky]

1. Hire a competent GM.

[MichaelH]

I agree with most points.
However:
I doubt Cowher would ever come to KC unless it's the hugest contract ever. He has ties in Carolina and if John Fox would get fired, I think Bill would take the job.

A Carr/Harrington reclamation project is as insane as a Croyle/Huard/Thigpen are the answers project. Carr was a bigger flop in Carolina than in Texas. He may have talent nut so did Croyle. And as far as Harrington goes, see the previous sentence.

Whatever happens, the future looks grim. If the Chiefs do draft a good QB, it will take time to develop. So more rebuilding seasons. And if Hunt keeps Carl and Hermie, the two combined couldn't coach a high school QB.

I'm trying to remain optomistic but I think not only this season has fallen apart but for many to come.

[Brock]

I'd look at bringing in a Carr/Harrington type to be your veteran back-up/reclamation project.

You know how I know you're a Chiefs fan?

[chiefzilla1501]

I agree with the original poster on the QB reclamation project. He didn't say that the Chiefs should start one of these QBs. I believe he's saying that the Chiefs should bring one in as our "veteran QB" (every team needs at least one veteran on the roster). These guys would be backups, much like Leftwich has been in Pitt. Losman and Alex Smith are two guys that could be worth a look. I disagree with the original poster that Croyle should be cut. Croyle is a solid Qb, in my opinion, and would be a valuable guy to have in a backup role. The Chiefs absolutely, positively need to look for a long-term answer at QB.

I would not fire Herm. I think he's unfairly taking the blame for problems that were brought on by poor front office decisions. Herm inherited a sinking ship--old veterans and NO replacements through the draft. Worse, Carl Peterson held back the rebuild until the ship completely collapsed. The rebuild should have started 2 years ago.

There isn't a single coach that would win with the cards Herm was dealt. Give him his coaches (Gun isn't his guy). Get rid of the incompetent boob up top, Carl Peterson. Give Herm some actual players to work with. Give Herm 2009 to prove or disprove his worth. Like Herm or not, he made a very bold step to completely rebuild this team through youth which was the right decision, but it's not a decision he would have made if he knew his job was in jeopardy. He deserves at least one free pass for doing what's right, even though he knew it would damage his reputation.

I agree with most points.
However:
I doubt Cowher would ever come to KC unless it's the hugest contract ever. He has ties in Carolina and if John Fox would get fired, I think Bill would take the job.

A Carr/Harrington reclamation project is as insane as a Croyle/Huard/Thigpen are the answers project. Carr was a bigger flop in Carolina than in Texas. He may have talent nut so did Croyle. And as far as Harrington goes, see the previous sentence.

Whatever happens, the future looks grim. If the Chiefs do draft a good QB, it will take time to develop. So more rebuilding seasons. And if Hunt keeps Carl and Hermie, the two combined couldn't coach a high school QB.

I'm trying to remain optomistic but I think not only this season has fallen apart but for many to come.

[chagrin]

I still lurk a bit, but haven't posted in awhile. Now, as I sit watching yet another blow-out at Arrowhead, I've some thoughts to share...

It's time to turn the page on Herm, I think. Not because of the team not being very good (it is a rebuilding phase, after all) but because his judgement has been shown to be unsound.

Carl too. Time for Clark to clean house.

Cowher maybe? sure. He's a winner. He likes to play defense and run the ball, which although it's sometimes unexciting football, in an outdoor midwestern stadium is a pretty good recipe for always being tough to beat. The thing that got me about Pittsburgh was that they always restocked well.

Whoever it is, they'll need a QB. In fact, they'll need 3.

I think a clean break is neccessary. No more Huard, no more Croyle, and no more Thigpen.

I'd look at bringing in a Carr/Harrington type to be your veteran back-up/reclamation project. Talented guys, not too old, drafted by terrible teams and probably ruined. You never know, though, and sometimes a change of scenery helps those guys. Just ask Jim Plunkett. Or Kerry Collins.
But you're not counting on them for anything other than a back-up.

I think you have to make pre-draft trades to move Tony Gonzales and Larry Johnson. I don't care what you get for them, you need to move them both, for different reasons. Gonzo doesn't want to be here, and has earned the right to go to a contender. LJ has proven to just be too immature and a distraction.

I think you have to draft Matt Stafford in the first. I don't think you have any choice, unless you're working a deal somehow for maybe Brady Quinn. I don't like drafting QB's in the first, I've been against it forever. I think the franchise has no choice.


Your solution is to have shitty QB's who WERE NOT GOOD TO BEGIN WITH for the NFL, tutor young QB's of the future?

Holy shit, it's like you're here every day.

[chagrin]

We need a HC who is a natural leader of men, Herm cannot motivate his players; that would be a good start, then we could try and get a QB who won't suck the life out of the young talent (whoever that may actually be) while he wastes our time. No more unknown, fragile QB's who either played at Tulsa or whatever and can't take a hit would be a good next step, and work on the O-line...absolutely nothing will change without at least one of these 3 actions taking place, this team goes nowhere, and goes nowhere faster then the 3 years that it looks like it's going to take currently.

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm is actually known to be a very good motivator. For as bad as the offense has been, they always play hard to the final snap, and I appreciate that about them. The defense does not, and I will continue to insist that this is, in my opinion, a lot more so a Gunther Cunningham issue than a Herm Edwards issue.

Herm at least deserves to have his own guys coaching for him. The decision to force two coordinators on him that clash with Herm's coaching philosophy is yet another boneheaded decision this front office has made because they insist on remaining overly loyal to their coaches and players.

We need a HC who is a natural leader of men, Herm cannot motivate his players; that would be a good start, then we could try and get a QB who won't suck the life out of the young talent (whoever that may actually be) while he wastes our time. No more unknown, fragile QB's who either played at Tulsa or whatever and can't take a hit would be a good next step, and work on the O-line...absolutely nothing will change without at least one of these 3 actions taking place, this team goes nowhere, and goes nowhere faster then the 3 years that it looks like it's going to take currently.

[Bearcat2005]

I agree with the original poster on the QB reclamation project. He didn't say that the Chiefs should start one of these QBs. I believe he's saying that the Chiefs should bring one in as our "veteran QB" (every team needs at least one veteran on the roster). These guys would be backups, much like Leftwich has been in Pitt. Losman and Alex Smith are two guys that could be worth a look. I disagree with the original poster that Croyle should be cut. Croyle is a solid Qb, in my opinion, and would be a valuable guy to have in a backup role. The Chiefs absolutely, positively need to look for a long-term answer at QB.

I would not fire Herm. I think he's unfairly taking the blame for problems that were brought on by poor front office decisions. Herm inherited a sinking ship--old veterans and NO replacements through the draft. Worse, Carl Peterson held back the rebuild until the ship completely collapsed. The rebuild should have started 2 years ago.

There isn't a single coach that would win with the cards Herm was dealt. Give him his coaches (Gun isn't his guy). Get rid of the incompetent boob up top, Carl Peterson. Give Herm some actual players to work with. Give Herm 2009 to prove or disprove his worth. Like Herm or not, he made a very bold step to completely rebuild this team through youth which was the right decision, but it's not a decision he would have made if he knew his job was in jeopardy. He deserves at least one free pass for doing what's right, even though he knew it would damage his reputation.


I agree, here is a thought though, get rid of Curly Dick and get a real QB coach in there. A retired Trent Green? That could be nice.

[Reerun_KC]

Herm is actually known to be a very good motivator. For as bad as the offense has been, they always play hard to the final snap, and I appreciate that about them. The defense does not, and I will continue to insist that this is, in my opinion, a lot more so a Gunther Cunningham issue than a Herm Edwards issue.

Herm at least deserves to have his own guys coaching for him. The decision to force two coordinators on him that clash with Herm's coaching philosophy is yet another boneheaded decision this front office has made because they insist on remaining overly loyal to their coaches and players.

Can you get some proof about him being a very good motivator?

And Herm chose to keep gunther to run the outdated Cover 2...

Also Herm fired Solari and Hired Gailey, yet same results... Wierd?

[chiefzilla1501]

I can't give you proof of point #1. But the general consensus is that Herm is respected around the league as a good motivator, but maybe not an exceptional X's and O's guy.

Your second point... the Chiefs' front office has a long history of remaining overly loyal to their coaches and players. Mike Solari was forced onto Herm, even though it's entirely obvious that his offense clashes with Herm's approach. Herm is more of a West Coast offense guy and the ridiculousness of Carl Peterson's move here showed when Herm asked Solari to run a West Coast offense last year, which he had 0 experience running. GUn was the same way. Carl Peterson forced these two coordinators onto Herm out of loyalty and out of continuity to extend the window 1-2 years longer instead of rebuilding like they should have. It is absolutely, positively ridiculous to suggest that Herm brought in Gun to run a cover 2 when Gun had limited experience running a true cover 2. I would be shocked if Gun was anywhere near Herm's first choice. To my knowledge, the guy Herm wanted most was Donnie Henderson.

As for Gailey, I don't see how anyone can pass judgment on the guy. We've seen that when Croyle was in the game, the offense actually moves pretty decent. He's had to deal with three 4 new starters on the o-line, a QB who's only been healthy enough to play in two half-games, a suspended #1 RB, and two backup QBs who clearly are not good enough to be winners in the NFL at this stage in their respective careers. Blaming Gailey for not winning is like blaming a guy on crutches for not running fast.




Can you get some proof about him being a very good motivator?

And Herm chose to keep gunther to run the outdated Cover 2...

Also Herm fired Solari and Hired Gailey, yet same results... Wierd?

[BigChiefFan]

This is what happens, when you play conservative in the NFL today. If you choose to run the same plays over and over again, your asking for a recipe for disaster. Herm's teams have been one-dimensional his entire coaching career. This ship has sailed. FAIL.

[Bob Dole]

Herm is actually known to be a very good motivator.

Bob Dole is motivated to drive up to KC and stab Herm in the face...

[SAUTO]

DO IT DO IT!!!!!!!!! like 35 fucking times

[FringeNC]

Herm is actually known to be a very good motivator.

The team quit the last two games. Real good motivator he is.

[beach tribe]

I can't give you proof of point #1. But the general consensus is that Herm is respected around the league as a good motivator, but maybe not an exceptional X's and O's guy.
So in your opinion, this team has looked consistently motivated to you?


I don't like to insult people on my posts, but you don't make it easy.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Clark will prove this offseason if he really is ready to be an NFL owner by firing Carl and Herm. If not, he's in way over his head.

[Halfcan]

I still lurk a bit, but haven't posted in awhile. Now, as I sit watching yet another blow-out at Arrowhead, I've some thoughts to share...

It's time to turn the page on Herm, I think. Not because of the team not being very good (it is a rebuilding phase, after all) but because his judgement has been shown to be unsound.

Carl too. Time for Clark to clean house.

Cowher maybe? sure. He's a winner. He likes to play defense and run the ball, which although it's sometimes unexciting football, in an outdoor midwestern stadium is a pretty good recipe for always being tough to beat. The thing that got me about Pittsburgh was that they always restocked well.

Whoever it is, they'll need a QB. In fact, they'll need 3.

I think a clean break is neccessary. No more Huard, no more Croyle, and no more Thigpen.

I'd look at bringing in a Carr/Harrington type to be your veteran back-up/reclamation project. Talented guys, not too old, drafted by terrible teams and probably ruined. You never know, though, and sometimes a change of scenery helps those guys. Just ask Jim Plunkett. Or Kerry Collins.
But you're not counting on them for anything other than a back-up.

I think you have to make pre-draft trades to move Tony Gonzales and Larry Johnson. I don't care what you get for them, you need to move them both, for different reasons. Gonzo doesn't want to be here, and has earned the right to go to a contender. LJ has proven to just be too immature and a distraction.

I think you have to draft Matt Stafford in the first. I don't think you have any choice, unless you're working a deal somehow for maybe Brady Quinn. I don't like drafting QB's in the first, I've been against it forever. I think the franchise has no choice.


The problem is with our Owner!! He is quoted in todays paper as saying that Herm and Carl are doing a fine job. Maybe he should watch the tapes Carl sends him once a month-a little closer.

[mrub4]

Herm is actually known to be a very good motivator. For as bad as the offense has been, they always play hard to the final snap, and I appreciate that about them. The defense does not, and I will continue to insist that this is, in my opinion, a lot more so a Gunther Cunningham issue than a Herm Edwards issue.

Herm at least deserves to have his own guys coaching for him. The decision to force two coordinators on him that clash with Herm's coaching philosophy is yet another boneheaded decision this front office has made because they insist on remaining overly loyal to their coaches and players.

What's the excuse for Herms suckitude in NY?

I'm sure he's a great guy, and it's obvious he loves football, but he's just not HC material. It was evident when he took over the Jets.

My boss is a great guy, and a great motivator, and he's dedicated to the company... but honestly he has zero ability to be a boss. Employees are giving up on him just like players are giving up on Herm, we're losing great long time workers to other companies offering less money. Yet the men upstairs love him and blame all our problems on the workers...

Way too many parallels, it's kinda scary now that I think about it. I should probably start sending out my resume

[Halfcan]

This is what happens, when you play conservative in the NFL today. If you choose to run the same plays over and over again, your asking for a recipe for disaster. Herm's teams have been one-dimensional his entire coaching career. This ship has sailed. FAIL.

EXACTLY!!! :clap: I can name on one hand the plays we have run. Run, swing, and incomplete downfield-lol

[chiefzilla1501]

Personally, I think Herm's learned a lot of lessons from his first time around. For example, he never rebuilt through the draft in New York, but he's doing it now.

But to answer the first point, regardless of whose team he inherited, for as bad as you say he was in New York, he did lead the team to 3 playoff appearances and two playoff wins. That's more than Marty or Vermeil ever brought us.

What's the excuse for Herms suckitude in NY?

I'm sure he's a great guy, and it's obvious he loves football, but he's just not HC material. It was evident when he took over the Jets.

My boss is a great guy, and a great motivator, and he's dedicated to the company... but honestly he has zero ability to be a boss. Employees are giving up on him just like players are giving up on Herm, we're losing great long time workers to other companies offering less money. Yet the men upstairs love him and blame all our problems on the workers...

Way too many parallels, it's kinda scary now that I think about it. I should probably start sending out my resume

[whoman69]

Personally, I think Herm's learned a lot of lessons from his first time around. For example, he never rebuilt through the draft in New York, but he's doing it now.

But to answer the first point, regardless of whose team he inherited, for as bad as you say he was in New York, he did lead the team to 3 playoff appearances and two playoff wins. That's more than Marty or Vermeil ever brought us.

Wrong on both counts. We had three playoff wins under Marty and were in the playoffs every year from '89-95. Herm took the team from 10-6 to 9-7 and still made the playoffs because every other team above them lost on the last weekend. This team has gotten worse under him than it ever was under Vermeil.

[chiefzilla1501]

Wrong on both counts. We had three playoff wins under Marty and were in the playoffs every year from '89-95. Herm took the team from 10-6 to 9-7 and still made the playoffs because every other team above them lost on the last weekend. This team has gotten worse under him than it ever was under Vermeil.

On your last point....

Given that Vermeil had his roster stacked with 30+ year old players and we had 5 ridiculously bad drafts in which only 2 or 3 players emerged as long-term replacements, did you really think Herm inherited a team that was going to get better?

C'mon. It's not a difficult argument to make that Herm Edwards inherited a football team in really, really, really bad shape--horribly old and no young players to replace our rapidly retiring veteran base.

Like I said, I haven't made up my mind on Herm. But I also recognize that he landed in a really uncomfortable spot.

[Hammock Parties]

C'mon. It's not a difficult argument to make that Herm Edwards inherited a football team in really, really, really bad shape--horribly old and no young players to replace our rapidly retiring veteran base.


Yeah, and he's done shit to improve the situation.

I mean, literally, nothing. We suck horribly in every phase of the game except special teams.

[King_Chief_Fan]

On your last point....

Given that Vermeil had his roster stacked with 30+ year old players and we had 5 ridiculously bad drafts in which only 2 or 3 players emerged as long-term replacements, did you really think Herm inherited a team that was going to get better?

C'mon. It's not a difficult argument to make that Herm Edwards inherited a football team in really, really, really bad shape--horribly old and no young players to replace our rapidly retiring veteran base.

Like I said, I haven't made up my mind on Herm. But I also recognize that he landed in a really uncomfortable spot.

The short bus will be along shortly to pick you up.

[whoman69]

On your last point....

Given that Vermeil had his roster stacked with 30+ year old players and we had 5 ridiculously bad drafts in which only 2 or 3 players emerged as long-term replacements, did you really think Herm inherited a team that was going to get better?

C'mon. It's not a difficult argument to make that Herm Edwards inherited a football team in really, really, really bad shape--horribly old and no young players to replace our rapidly retiring veteran base.

Like I said, I haven't made up my mind on Herm. But I also recognize that he landed in a really uncomfortable spot.

Herm started a rebuild from day one that he took over. Go back to his early press conferences and he made it clear. What he did not say was that he was not only going to replace the older personnel, he was going to take the system and start over. We are in a league where teams can go from the bottom of the heap to the top in a very short period of time. Before you go crying about how bare the cubbard was, did he get left in worse shape than say the Bills, Cardinals or the Packers? Last year should have been the low point. We have gotten even worse. Its Herm's system that is the reason for everything. He is so conservative he's taken the offense out of the game. The defense is on the field the whole game, the opposite you'd expect from what is supposed to be a ball control offense. They are in some ways even worse than when Vermeil was here. The whole team has given up. There is nothing good that can come from keeping a broken system in place for the remainder of this year. The sooner we are past Herm's system, the better off we will be.