For the Stafford heads

[Zouk]

Tony Pauline has him ranked as the 24th best prospect in the country.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/10/27/nfl.draft/1.html

I've been reading draft stuff for a while and Pauline is really very good. For example, while clowns like Todd McShay had Andre Woodson as the top prospect in football last fall, Pauline correctly had him as an overrated prospect that would not go first day.

And I agree with his ranking on Stafford. Big arm, but not very tall, not a great leader, poor decision maker. I'll take a Matt Ryan (mediocre arm, but ultra productive with much worse skill position talent around him, and with leadership and smarts off the charts) over him every day of the week.

Sorry if the link is a repost.

[CupidStunt]

The love he gets here is almost unbelievable. The guy is not nearly as some WANT him to be. Talented, though.

[evolve27]

Mecca's gonna jizz over these rankings.

[OnTheWarpath15]

:popcorn:

Here comes the Excuse Express...

[Hammock Parties]

He's 6-foot-3. Trent Green was 6-foot-3.

Thigpen is listed generously at 6-foot-1.

[Zouk]

Maualuga to the Lions at 1 makes a lot of sense. I see us with Orakpo. If there was a stud QB prospect (preferably a senior - junior QBs have a terrrible track record) I'd be for taking him but I don't see one out there.

[Brock]

So are you saying he won't be the first player off the board?

[Brock]

Maualuga to the Lions at 1 makes a lot of sense. I see us with Orakpo. If there was a stud QB prospect (preferably a senior - junior QBs have a terrrible track record) I'd be for taking him but I don't see one out there.

ROFL Yeah, a middle linebacker will go number one overall.

[Hammock Parties]

Maualuga to the Lions at 1 makes a lot of sense.

That team is starving for a QB.

[Goapics1]

That team is starving for a QB.

They have Culpepper, Stanton, Kitna, and the one peckerhead who stepped out of the end zone for a safety and didn't realize it.

[OnTheWarpath15]

They have Culpepper, Stanton, Kitna, and the one peckerhead who stepped out of the end zone for a safety and didn't realize it.

Exactly.

They have nothing.

[Zouk]

He's 6-foot-3. Trent Green was 6-foot-3.

Thigpen is listed generously at 6-foot-1.

How many QBs under 6-4 go top 10? Not many. Maybe Mike Vick. I don't think an inch or two is disqualifying but when his production is what it is you'd think he would be the prototype to go top 10 and he's just not.

[Demonpenz]

Dick Butkus never even made it to the superbowl

[evolve27]

They have Culpepper, Stanton, Kitna, and the one peckerhead who stepped out of the end zone for a safety and didn't realize it.

Culpepper is a good scrambler. Man I hope he wins a game I can feel a win coming(pray). :p

[Zouk]

That team is starving for a QB.

No doubt. They might do something stupid a la Alex Smith.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Matt Cassel as their QB next year. He's a legit NFL starter.

[StcChief]

Culpepper is a good scrambler. Man I hope he wins a game I can feel a win coming(pray). :pLions 0-16 or 1-15 if W 17 is a rest game.

[evolve27]

No doubt. They might do something stupid a la Alex Smith.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Matt Cassel as their QB next year. He's a legit NFL starter.

If Stafford is there I think he's signing way ahead of time for that #1 overall.

[Hammock Parties]

Stafford is going to finish his college career with over 30 starts and better than 61 percent completion rate. If you look at the history of first-round quarterbacks, those are the two best indicators of future NFL success. There was an article about this on football outsiders a few months ago, I can't find it now, but it was good stuff.

EDIT - This is related but I don't think it was the main article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3350135

[evolve27]

Lions 0-16 or 1-15 if W 17 is a rest game.

:doh!: :banghead: @ the rest game

[evolve27]

Stafford is going to finish his college career with over 30 starts and better than 61 percent completion rate. If you look at the history of first-round quarterbacks, those are the two best indicators of future NFL success. There was an article about this on football outsiders a few months ago, I can't find it now, but it was good stuff.

EDIT - This is related but I don't think it was the main article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3350135

Do you know if Mayock has any rankings out? He is the real deal, and I will continue to boast about his draft prowess. I think he got 90 out of the first 100 draft picks right last year. Amazing.

[the Talking Can]

the common thread of people on this board who don't want to draft stafford?

they haven't watched him this year

just box scores....and teh intertube articles..

and what dies mr. pauline actually say about Stafford?

" The Bulldogs gunslinger constantly challenges the vertical game and is an accurate passer with a strong arm. "


good thing we don't need any of that in KC...accurate passers with strong arms are waaaay to risky for True Fans...

this place reeks of stupidity and fear....

[Zouk]

Stafford is going to finish his college career with over 30 starts and better than 61 percent completion rate. If you look at the history of first-round quarterbacks, those are the two best indicators of future NFL success. There was an article about this on football outsiders a few months ago, I can't find it now, but it was good stuff.

EDIT - This is related but I don't think it was the main article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3350135

So Brian Brohm > Matt Ryan?

Chase Daniel and Colt McCoy will be the greatest QBs of all time? (they're currently completing more than 70% of their passes)

If you like stathead scouting, follow baseball.

[SAUTO]

the common thread of people on this board who don't want to draft stafford?

they haven't watched him this year
\
you KEEP saying that and you continue to be WRONG. i HAVE watched stafford play quite a few times. while i was impressed with his arm i WAS NOT impressed with his decision making. You also continue to say decision making doesnt matter because he's young, Thigpen is young too i believe and while playing IN THE NFL he's thrown 1 int(in garbage time) in the last 4 games. So you can say whatever you want but the PROOF is in the pudding

[OnTheWarpath15]

Do you know if Mayock has any rankings out? He is the real deal, and I will continue to boast about his draft prowess. I think he got 90 out of the first 100 draft picks right last year. Amazing.

Most guys worth their salt don't bother ranking guys in November.

That's what makes all this funny.

It's NOVEMBER.

This time last year, Brian Brohm and Andre Woodson were both 1st round guys.

Now, one is a 3rd stringer, playing behind a 7th round pick, and the other is on a PS, where every team in the league has had an opportunity to sign him, and haven't.

A lot of things are going to change between now and late April.

Count on it.

[Brock]

Most guys worth their salt don't bother ranking guys in November.

That's what makes all this funny.

It's NOVEMBER.

This time last year, Brian Brohm and Andre Woodson were both 1st round guys.

Now, one is a 3rd stringer, playing behind a 7th round pick, and the other is on a PS, where every team in the league has had an opportunity to sign him, and haven't.

A lot of things are going to change between now and late April.

Count on it.

That's true, but I'll still bet my bottom dollar Stafford is a top 5 pick.

[Zouk]

Most guys worth their salt don't bother ranking guys in November.

That's what makes all this funny.

It's NOVEMBER.

This time last year, Brian Brohm and Andre Woodson were both 1st round guys.



No - I think you're wrong. Most of Staffords' resume is written if he comes out this year. Is there a lot of crappy info out there from people who are not experts and don't know what they're talking about? Of course. But the scouting departments of most teams can put a 3 round board up tomorrow without a problem. And if most teams did that last season at this time Woodson would not have been 1st round. YOu need to pay attention to guys like Pauline who have legit scouting connections and not guys who just happen to have a website and watch games on TV.

[Chiefnj2]

That's true, but I'll still bet my bottom dollar Stafford is a top 5 pick.

Of course. He's the best projected QB and QB's are always overrated.

[evolve27]

No - I think you're wrong. Most of Staffords' resume is written if he comes out this year. Is there a lot of crappy info out there from people who are not experts and don't know what they're talking about? Of course. But the scouting departments of most teams can put a 3 round board up tomorrow without a problem. And if most teams did that last season at this time Woodson would not have been 1st round. YOu need to pay attention to guys like Pauline who have legit scouting connections and not guys who just happen to have a website and watch games on TV.

So Bradford is a better fit for Chiefs when he comes out because I'm sure he would be ranked higher than #45 overall by Pauline.

[OnTheWarpath15]

No - I think you're wrong. Most of Staffords' resume is written if he comes out this year. Is there a lot of crappy info out there from people who are not experts and don't know what they're talking about? Of course. But the scouting departments of most teams can put a 3 round board up tomorrow without a problem. And if most teams did that last season at this time Woodson would not have been 1st round. YOu need to pay attention to guys like Pauline who have legit scouting connections and not guys who just happen to have a website and watch games on TV.

I'm not talking about teams.

I'm talking about the blowhards on ESPN and other internet outlets.

It's not coincidence that the closer we get to the draft, the closer each of these guys projections are.

My point is that most of those guy don't bother contacting teams in the middle of the season. They know how much things are going to change once NFL teams start breaking down film and attending workouts.

Rick Gosselin has the best connections of anyone doing this.

He doesn't bother posting mocks and rankings until after the new year, and in some cases, not until after the Super Bowl.

[Ultra Peanut]

Zouk,

Never change.

[shaneo69]

the common thread of people on this board who don't want to draft stafford?

they haven't watched him this year


I saw him play against Florida. Looked great.

[SAUTO]

I saw him play against Florida. Looked great.

ROFL hope you were being sarcastic

[Zouk]

It's not coincidence that the closer we get to the draft, the closer each of these guys projections are.

My point is that most of those guy don't bother contacting teams in the middle of the season. They know how much things are going to change once NFL teams start breaking down film and attending workouts.

Rick Gosselin has the best connections of anyone doing this.




It's too early for a mock. And smaller school guys, fast rising juniors, guys with medical or off-field red flags, and/or unclear size/speed can move around a lot. But a guy like Stafford as a long-time SEC starter is what he is unless he comes back next year and improves. The games count more than workouts and they're almost all done.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Of course. He's the best projected QB and QB's are always overrated.

Exactly.

Only once in the past 10 years has a QB not been selected in the Top 5.

And of the 12 that were Top 5 picks, 60% of them are either no longer starting, or are out of the league.

And that includes JaMarcus Russell, who's only starting because of his contract.

8/12 in that timeframe are busts.

There are as many starters drafted out of the Top 5 in 2006-2007 ALONE as there are Top 5 guys over the last 10 years.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It's too early for a mock. And smaller school guys, fast rising juniors, guys with medical or off-field red flags, and/or unclear size/speed can move around a lot. But a guy like Stafford as a long-time SEC starter is what he is unless he comes back next year and improves. The games count more than workouts and they're almost all done.

Apparently, games don't count more than workouts, or guys like Brohm and Woodson wouldn't have fallen off the face of the earth come draft day, and guys like Jarod Mayo who was considered a 2nd round pick wouldn't have jumped into the Top 10.

[Mr. Laz]

Maualuga to the Lions at 1 makes a lot of sense.
ROFL


who the hell is this guy?

[Mr. Laz]

By Tony Pauline, Special to SI.com, TFYDraft.com (http://tfydraft.com/)

(http://tfydraft.com/)
The NFL draft is less than six months away and scouts from all 32 teams continue to travel the country searching for the nation's best next level talent. The league's worst teams (including the winless Lions and Bengals) already have an eye on April 25.26 and are targeting players they hope can turn around the fortunes of their losing franchises. Here's a list of the top 45 players eligible for next April's draft. All have a realistic opportunity to be first-round picks.


1. Rey Maualuga/LB/USC: The Trojans top prospect has struggled with injuries this season yet is a dominant defender who plays hard every snap.

2. Andre Smith*/OT/Alabama: Smith is an outstanding blind side pass protector whom scouts think can also flourish at the right tackle position.

3. Malcolm Jenkins/CB/Ohio State: The Buckeyes have a long history of placing quality cornerbacks into the NFL. Jenkins could be the best one to come out of Columbus in two decades.

4. Taylor Mays*/S/USC: Mays is a forceful run defender with great ball skills. He's also a terrific athlete and will strengthen the middle of any defense in the NFL.

5. Michael Crabtree*/WR/Texas Tech: Crabtree, a former quarterback in high school, has proven himself to be a game controlling receiver who is impossible to defend.

6. Chris Wells*/RB/Ohio State: Wells is a big, powerful interior runner who should quickly produce as a feature runner in the NFL. He is a well-rounded ball carrier who takes over games.

7. Brian Orakpo/DE-OLB/Texas: Orakpo is watching his draft stock skyrocket after a number of brilliant performances against top competition. He's a game-impacting pass rusher that can line up at defensive end or outside linebacker.

8. William Moore/S/Missouri: One of the Big Twelve's most consistent players, Moore intimidates opponents who dare cross his path in centerfield. He's a great athlete with tremendous size.

9. Knowshon Moreno*/RB/Georgia: Moreno could be the most complete running back in April's draft if he opts for the NFL. He's an aggressive North/South runner with a lot of upside.

10. James Laurinaitis/LB/Ohio State: "Little Animal" lives up to his name, as the Ohio State linebacker craves contact. Laurinaitis is a solid prospect yet not the top five draft pick many contend.

11. Jeremy Maclin*/WR/Missouri: Maclin is a game changing skill player with home run hitting speed. He is a threat to score from anywhere on the field as a receiver or kick returner.

12. Aaron Curry/OLB/Wake Forest: Curry has been on a tear this season and scouts love his all around game. He's developing into a complete linebacker as a senior and playing a more disciplined brand of football.

13. Terrence Cody*/NT/Alabama: Cody is not yet the finished product but a large, dominant defensive linemen who controls the line of scrimmage.

14. Jermaine Gresham*/TE/Oklahoma: The Sooners play making junior is already drawing comparisons to many of the pass catching greats at the tight end position to come from the college ranks.

15. Eugene Monroe/OT/Virginia: Monroe has been a slight disappointment this season. NFL scouts originally considered him a top ten pick but Monroe's erratic play could push him into the middle of the round.

16. Brandon Pettigrew/TE/Oklahoma State: Pettigrew is a complete tight end and offers immediate starting potential in the NFL.

17. Sen'Derrick Marks*/DT/Auburn: One of the best defensive linemen in the SEC, Marks is an explosive tackle with the athleticism necessary to be used as a 3.4 defensive end.

18. Darrius Heyward-Bey*/WR/Maryland: Heyward-Bey possesses home run hitting speed and is a threat to take it the distance any time he's on the field.

19. Jason Smith/OT/Baylor: The Bears left tackle is one of the best kept secrets heading towards the draft. He's an athletic pass protector with the ability to flourish in a variety of blocking schemes.

20. Michael Johnson/DE/Georgia Tech: NFL scouting services rated Johnson as the nation's number one senior prospect in August. He's a great pass rusher but can be a liability against the run.

21. Alex Mack/C/California: Mack is the best center to enter the draft since former first round pick Nick Mangold (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7778). He combines Mangold's intelligence with brute strength to overwhelm opponents.

22. Percy Harvin*/WR/Florida: The Gators all purpose skill player beats opponents as a pass catcher, ball carrier and offers potential as a return specialist.

23. Brian Cushing/DE-OLB/USC: Cushing is a disruptive force when healthy and a defender constantly making plays in the opponents back field. His ability to line-up in a three point stance or be placed at linebacker enhances his value.

24. Matt Stafford*/QB/Georgia: The Bulldogs gunslinger constantly challenges the vertical game and is an accurate passer with a strong arm. Scouts were expecting a little more from Stafford this season and do not consider him an early first round pick at this point.

25. Darius Butler/CB/Connecticut: Butler is a big, fast athlete who stands out at cornerback while also producing on special teams and receiver. He's not the finished product but NFL decision makers love his upside potential.

26. Michael Oher/OT/Mississippi: The athletic tackle has proven himself to be a terrific pass blocker the past three seasons but Oher's game has limitations.

27. D.J. Moore*/CB/Vanderbilt: Moore is a nice sized cover corner with an improving game a prospect who excites scouts.

28. Javon Ringer/RB/Michigan State: The Spartans Heisman Trophy candidate is in the midst of a wonderful senior campaign. He's a skilled ball carrier but lacks the true size and speed to be a feature runner at the next level.

29. Alphonso Smith/CB/Wake Forest: Smith is a solid cover corner who will likely start his NFL career as a nickel back.

30. Greg Hardy*/DE/Mississippi: Hardy, a tremendous athlete who previously played for the Rebels basketball team, flashes skill as a game changing defensive lineman.

31. Herman Johnson/OG/LSU: Johnson is large enough to play tackle, strong enough to annihilate opponents and has the versatility to be used in a variety of blocking schemes.

32. Geno Atkins*/DT/Georgia: Atkins is a smallish yet explosive interior lineman and has a number of NFL teams that employ a one-gap defense looking at him.

33. George Selvie/DE-OLB/South Florida: The Bulls defensive end has been one of the nation's best pass rushers the past two years. His tall, thin frame makes a move to outside linebacker likely.

34. Louis Murphy/WR/Florida: Murphy is another big play receiver on the Gators roster. He's got the size and speed to produce on the next level yet must polish his game.

35. Marcus Freeman/OLB/Ohio State: The Buckeyes "other" linebacker is a solid NFL prospect in his own right and considered a more complete player than Laurinaitis by some in the scouting community.

36. Mark Sanchez/QB/USC: Sanchez improves almost weekly and has shown scouts terrific command and control of the Trojan offense. He possesses the arm strength and brains to play at the next level.

37. Donald Brown*/RB/Connecticut: The Huskies record setting running back has been a one man show this season. Scouts like Brown's ball carrying skills and feel he's a complete back who creates much of his own yardage.

38. Russell Okung*/OT/Oklahoma State: Okung is another terrific tackle prospect from the Big 12. He's a skilled pass protector who also shows dominance run blocking.

39. Keenan Lewis/CB/Oregon State: Lewis has been a steadying force in Oregon State's talented secondary. He offers the size and skill to start in the NFL.

40. DeMarcus Granger*/DT/Oklahoma: Drawing comparisons to former Sooner and Chicago Bears (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/bears) first round choice Tommie Harris (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/6773), Granger is a penetrating tackle who has opponents playing on their heals.

41. Tyson Jackson/DE/LSU: The Tigers defender has his game back on track this year and is being considered for number of positions on the line.

42. Brandon Spikes*/ILB/Florida: Spikes is in the mold of other dominant Florida linebackers now producing in the NFL like Channing Crowder (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7246), though Spikes is a complete, three down defender.

43. Antoine Caldwell/C/Alabama: Alabama's leader on the offensive line, Caldwell is a zone blocking center and has increased his playing strength the past two years.

44. Trevard Lindley*/CB/Kentucky: Lindley is developing into a complete cornerback and has shut down many of the best receivers in the SEC this year.

45. Auston English*/DE/Oklahoma: The Sooners fierce pass rush is an intelligent defender that will fit a number of defensive schemes.


Notes

• Based on the talent available, cornerback will be a position of strength if the top underclassmen enter next April's draft. Besides the prospects listed above another half dozen underclassmen cornerbacks presently carry at least a second round grade.
• Hawaii defensive end David Veikune is building a buzz around himself. The athletic pass rusher is considered a stronger version of Travis LaBoy (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/6801), another prominent defensive end to come from the Hawaii program.
• Wisconsin tight end Travis Beckum fractured his left leg against Illinois on Saturday and is lost for the remainder of the season. The pass catching specialist missed the Badgers first two games this season with a hamstring injury only to return then immediately re-injure himself. Considered a potential top 75 selection in April's draft, the recent rash of leg ailments could push Beckum into the middle rounds.
* Denotes underclassmen

[Chiefnj2]

Oher is plummeting down draft boards.

[Mr. Laz]

no way is Wells the #6 in this draft imo either

[Sure-Oz]

24. Matt Stafford*/QB/Georgia: The Bulldogs gunslinger constantly challenges the vertical game and is an accurate passer with a strong arm. Scouts were expecting a little more from Stafford this season and do not consider him an early first round pick at this point.

LOL no way stafford gets out of the top 5

[duncan_idaho]

Pauline is one of my favorite draft guys (always has been). I know he was one of the most skeptical guys about JaPorky Russell before THAT draft (questioning him only having one year of "good" production, and that production being disappointing considering the talent around him,etc.). My favorite thing about Pauline is that he doesn't overrate QBs based on arm strength.

I think Pauline's ranking is about right (Stafford being the 15-25th most valuable player in the draft). He's VERY similar to Joe Flacco in terms of physical ability, though he's smaller. His decision making and consistency ARE problems (and yes, talking can, I've watched Matthew Stafford play A LOT - including before this season) and he isn't as effective as a play-action passer as he should be (he misses a LOT of throws after play-action fakes).

And I also think the people on this board saying he will still go in the top five because he's a QB are right. That doesn't make him worth the pick.

And gee, "(Andre) Smith is an outstanding blind side pass protector whom scouts think can also flourish at the right tackle position."

Hmm. Who else has said that?

[Brock]

And gee, "(Andre) Smith is an outstanding blind side pass protector whom scouts think can also flourish at the right tackle position."

Hmm. Who else has said that?

I don't know. What's the point of that?

[Mr. Laz]

LOL no way stafford gets out of the top 5

he might drop out of the top 5 .... sometimes team needs can push someone down, but no way does he drop out of the top 10.

not gonna happen imo

[Goapics1]

he might drop out of the top 5 .... sometimes team needs can push someone down, but no way does he drop out of the top 10.

not gonna happen imo

Especially with what is happening with Flacco and Ryan this yr. Copycat league.

[Mr. Laz]

wow :eek:

8. William Moore/S/Missouri: One of the Big Twelve's most consistent players, Moore intimidates opponents who dare cross his path in centerfield. He's a great athlete with tremendous size.

[Sure-Oz]

wow :eek:

8. William Moore/S/Missouri: One of the Big Twelve's most consistent players, Moore intimidates opponents who dare cross his path in centerfield. He's a great athlete with tremendous size.

He hasn't been that great this year imo, he did get just his 1st pick of the year last saturday

he had 8 last year

[duncan_idaho]

I don't know. What's the point of that?

That was for the guys who were giving me $hit about Smith a few weeks back...

[kcbubb]

In his last four starts, Thigpen has completed 85 of 140 passes (60.7%) for 945 yards with eight TDs and one INT, numbers that equate to a 96.9 rating. Over that four-game stretch, only Cardinals QB Kurt Warner (108.9) has a higher rating, while only Colts QB Peyton Manning (9) has thrown more TDs.

You can't compare Thigpen to previous Chiefs QB's. Trent Green had the the benefit of the best offensive line in the NFL during his best years in KC. The only reason that Thigpen has been successful is due to his ability to get rid of the ball quickly and his mobility. There are few QB's that would have performed as well as Thigpen for the last four games with the current offensive personnel. The Chiefs have not been able to run the football and they have not given the QB any time to throw the ball. Few QB's have succeeded under those conditions. Give Thigpen a chance. He may develop into a good QB.

[TrebMaxx]

This list is worthless to the Chiefs. Not one player listed from UCLA and even worse not one kicker.

[Goapics1]

In his last four starts, Thigpen has completed 85 of 140 passes (60.7%) for 945 yards with eight TDs and one INT, numbers that equate to a 96.9 rating. Over that four-game stretch, only Cardinals QB Kurt Warner (108.9) has a higher rating, while only Colts QB Peyton Manning (9) has thrown more TDs.

You can't compare Thigpen to previous Chiefs QB's. Trent Green had the the benefit of the best offensive line in the NFL during his best years in KC. The only reason that Thigpen has been successful is due to his ability to get rid of the ball quickly and his mobility. There are few QB's that would have performed as well as Thigpen for the last four games with the current offensive personnel. The Chiefs have not been able to run the football and they have not given the QB any time to throw the ball. Few QB's have succeeded under those conditions. Give Thigpen a chance. He may develop into a good QB.

Dick Curl is that you?

[OnTheWarpath15]

In his last four starts, Thigpen has completed 85 of 140 passes (60.7%) for 945 yards with eight TDs and one INT, numbers that equate to a 96.9 rating. Over that four-game stretch, only Cardinals QB Kurt Warner (108.9) has a higher rating, while only Colts QB Peyton Manning (9) has thrown more TDs.

You can't compare Thigpen to previous Chiefs QB's. Trent Green had the the benefit of the best offensive line in the NFL during his best years in KC. The only reason that Thigpen has been successful is due to his ability to get rid of the ball quickly and his mobility. There are few QB's that would have performed as well as Thigpen for the last four games with the current offensive personnel. The Chiefs have not been able to run the football and they have not given the QB any time to throw the ball. Few QB's have succeeded under those conditions. Give Thigpen a chance. He may develop into a good QB.


Good first post, n00b.

Prepare to be flamed, however.

[Brock]

That was for the guys who were giving me $hit about Smith a few weeks back...

The statement you posted said something about "this guy could be moved to right tackle". I mean, that's fine, but the Chiefs don't need to be drafting a right tackle in the first round.

[Mecca]

He has a MLB and a safety in the top 4.......I love Taylor Mays and would pine for him if we picked say 6th or 7th.

When I see Kurt Warner in the pistol or any other NFL team for that matter then we can compare Thigpen to other guys.

[duncan_idaho]

He hasn't been that great this year imo, he did get just his 1st pick of the year last saturday

he had 8 last year

The problem has been his positioning and use. Moore probably has been blitzed out of the nickel corner spot about 15-20 percent of the snaps he has played this season.

He hasn't been used coverage - especially two deep coverage in the cover 2 - nearly as much as a season ago, and he hurt his foot early. But he remains a huge, fast safety who is a sure tackler AND a big hitter.

I think his combine numbers are going to be crazy-ridiculous, if he is healthy. And that will help him... I wouldn't call him the No. 8 prospect in the draft, but he's a first-round talent...

[Hammock Parties]

The Chiefs have not been able to run the football and they have not given the QB any time to throw the ball. F

The Chiefs had an assload of rushing yards against the Bucs and had a decent ground game last week before they had to pass on practically every down.

[Zouk]

He has a MLB and a safety in the top 4.......I love Taylor Mays and would pine for him if we picked say 6th or 7th.

When I see Kurt Warner in the pistol or any other NFL team for that matter then we can compare Thigpen to other guys.

Sean Taylor went 5 and LaRon Landry went 6 - would 4 really be that shocking? And this is also not a mock. Just rankings.

[beach tribe]

That was for the guys who were giving me $hit about Smith a few weeks back...

I don't think very many were giving you shit about Smith, just that we already have a LT, and picking another one in the top 5, and maybe switching him to RT is not a goo idea, considering our other needs.

I want Duke Robinson, or Herman Johnson in the second.

[Mecca]

Sean Taylor went 5 and LaRon Landry went 6 - would 4 really be that shocking? And this is also not a mock. Just rankings.

To some people around here it would be, bring up Mays and watch people freak out.

[58-4ever]

stafford reminds me a lot of a gutsy gunslinging SEC Qb that had a terrible offensive line too. I think he played for Alabama?

[Pablo]

That is a f*cking terrible mock. Correction, not a mock, just rankings..but WTF still.

Stafford could lose the rest of his games this year, throw 10 more INT's and he'd still go Top 5 after the combine.

If JaMarcus Russell can go #1 overall, Stafford WILL GO TOP 5 with no question at all. It will happen.

[Hammock Parties]

Look at the first throw Stafford makes in this video. Incredible. And god his footwork is amazing.

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[Mecca]

stafford reminds me a lot of a gutsy gunslinging SEC Qb that had a terrible offensive line too. I think he played for Alabama?

Um dude, Matt Stafford is about 40lbs heavier and has never blown out his knee or had a serious injury.

[Pablo]

stafford reminds me a lot of a gutsy gunslinging SEC Qb that had a terrible offensive line too. I think he played for Alabama?Bradford reminds me of Chad Pennington with a weaker arm.

[Hammock Parties]

stafford reminds me a lot of a gutsy gunslinging SEC Qb that had a terrible offensive line too. I think he played for Alabama?

Please, let's not compare Stafford to Croyle. Stafford is listed at almost 240 pounds.

[Zouk]

To some people around here it would be, bring up Mays and watch people freak out.

I don't think we can draft a safety. I like Pollard and Page more than you do and we still have Morgan.

Unless I'm wrong and a QB emerges, it looks pretty clearly like a pass rusher or Maualuga for us.

[Mecca]

Please, let's not compare Stafford to Croyle. Stafford is listed at almost 240 pounds.

He actually lost some weight, you'll never mistake Stafford for being a stringbean.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't think we can draft a safety. I like Pollard and Page more than you do and we still have Morgan.


You like safeties who can't tackle...that's terrific...

[Thig Lyfe]

And I agree with his ranking on Stafford. Big arm, but not very tall, not a great leader, poor decision maker. I'll take a Matt Ryan (mediocre arm, but ultra productive with much worse skill position talent around him, and with leadership and smarts off the charts)

What's that? (http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80af9478)

[58-4ever]

I knew I would get a rise out of you guys that had a boner for Stafford. Now we only need Milkman and Hamas to pile on.

[Hammock Parties]

The throw at 0:36 is incredible. He's got some wheels, too.

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[Chief Faithful]

Look at the first throw Stafford makes in this video. Incredible. And god his footwork is amazing.



Every QB has 'god' footwork when it is all timing locked on a single receiver with no pass rush. To impress me I want to see play action while working through progressions with disrupted routes as he moves around inside a collapsing pocket buying time. That is when you learn about footwork.

In those videos we did not see anything other than what Thigpen or any spread offense QB can do.

[duncan_idaho]

I don't think very many were giving you shit about Smith, just that we already have a LT, and picking another one in the top 5, and maybe switching him to RT is not a goo idea, considering our other needs.

I want Duke Robinson, or Herman Johnson in the second.

Mecca laughed at me for liking him more than Oher/Monroe, as I recall (called him the No. 3 tackle in the draft).

I know the book says you never want to take a guy who's purely a RT in the top 5, but I would be fine with having a pair of tackles drafted No. 16 and No. 4 overall.

[Hammock Parties]

This one's pretty good.

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['Hamas' Jenkins]

Maualuga to the Lions at 1 makes a lot of sense. I see us with Orakpo. If there was a stud QB prospect (preferably a senior - junior QBs have a terrrible track record) I'd be for taking him but I don't see one out there.

LMAO @ a MLB #1 overall.

That pretty much says all you need to know about this guy.

[Mosbonian]

This time last year, Brian Brohm and Andre Woodson were both 1st round guys.

Now, one is a 3rd stringer, playing behind a 7th round pick, and the other is on a PS, where every team in the league has had an opportunity to sign him, and haven't.

If you look I said both were highly overrated....and neither would be starting maybe not even on a roster. I caught a lot of shit for it too...

mmaddog
*******

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Mecca laughed at me for liking him more than Oher/Monroe, as I recall (called him the No. 3 tackle in the draft).

I know the book says you never want to take a guy who's purely a RT in the top 5, but I would be fine with having a pair of tackles drafted No. 16 and No. 4 overall.

Why would you draft a RT #16 overall, when you can find them in the second and third round in spades?

That's such a retarded argument.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

If you look I said both were highly overrated....and neither would be starting maybe not even on a roster. I caught a lot of shit for it too...

mmaddog
*******

You also said Woodson would be a wide receiver.

[Hammock Parties]

Why would you draft a RT #16 overall, when you can find them in the second and third round in spades?

That's such a retarded argument.

People are scared because this inept coaching staff and front office can't find a right tackle to save their lives. How many have we gone through since Tait? Four? Five?

So naturally, that fear leads people to want the Chiefs to spend a high pick on a right tackle so we can have the highest chance possible of finally finding one.

Truth is if you have coaches and general managers worth donkey shit, who actually know what they're doing, they can find one in the third round, or hell, just grab one in free agency. Right tackle is not a position you need to solidify for 10 or 15 years...you can afford to do a patch job with it once or twice while your franchise quarterback, left tackle, and wide receiver rape opposing defenses.

[Mecca]

The dude who said Woodson who runs about a 5 40 and has the speed of Matt Ryan would be a WR should never post another take ever again.

[Mecca]

People are scared because this inept coaching staff and front office can't find a right tackle to save their lives. How many have we gone through since Tait? Four? Five?

So naturally, that fear leads people to want the Chiefs to spend a high pick on a right tackle so we can have the highest chance possible of finally finding one.

Truth is if you have coaches and general managers worth donkey shit, who actually know what they're doing, they can find one in the third round, or hell, just grab one in free agency. Right tackle is not a position you need to solidify for 10 or 15 years...you can afford to do a patch job with it once or twice while your franchise quarterback, left tackle, and wide receiver rape opposing defenses.

Most of the really good teams in this league used either 1 or 0 first round picks on offensive lineman.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

How many QBs under 6-4 go top 10? Not many. Maybe Mike Vick. I don't think an inch or two is disqualifying but when his production is what it is you'd think he would be the prototype to go top 10 and he's just not.

John Elway.
Donovan McNabb
Steve Young
Vick
David Carr

They were all top 2 picks, FWIW.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

No doubt. They might do something stupid a la Alex Smith.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Matt Cassel as their QB next year. He's a legit NFL starter.

If you stared at a box score you might believe this. If you actually watched him play, you'd never believe this. He takes too long to make his reads and he has subpar arm strength. He also throws a shit deep ball.

[SAUTO]

To some people around here it would be, bring up Mays and watch people freak out.

funny you HAVE brought him up multiple times and no one has really freaked out

[Mecca]

If you stared at a box score you might believe this. If you actually watched him play, you'd never believe this. He takes too long to make his reads and he has subpar arm strength. He also throws a shit deep ball.

To many box score watchers and nothing else when it relates to how players are judged around here.

[Mosbonian]

You also said Woodson would be a wide receiver.

No...you have the same lack of reading comprehension skills that Mecca does.....so let me help your memory.

I said, and I said it all year not just after his horrible workouts, that his only option to be on an NFL roster was as a possession reciever. Not a full time, #1 Wideout.....he has good hands..knew what to do with the ball, and could probably be a good YAC guy. NOWHERE did I say he had speed or the skills to be a gamebreaker.

I even said the equivalent was Todd McNair, the Chief's 3rd Down back from a few years ago. He was THE BEST at finding a way to get the Chiefs a 1st down whenever they were 3rd and long.

Remember, you don't have to have speed to be a great receiver.....Bilitnekoff, Largent, hell even Hines Ward all were never fast but knew how to get open and make separation. It isn't always about speed....although a burner is necessary to spread the defense.

Get a clue before you type stuff.

mmaddog
*******

[Mecca]

Thinking any dude that runs at the speed of basically Trent Green can play any receiving position is so comical it's beyond comprehension.

[Mosbonian]

The dude who said Woodson who runs about a 5 40 and has the speed of Matt Ryan would be a WR should never post another take ever again.


And you wonder why people see you as arrogant and pompous....you were the guy who said Woodson and Brohm would be NFL QB's....

You need to take a look in the mirror....you're wrong as much as you are right.

mmaddog
*******

[Mosbonian]

Thinking any dude that runs at the speed of basically Trent Green can play any receiving position is so comical it's beyond comprehension.


Only to you and your "nobody is as all-knowing as I am" complex.

mmaddog
*******

[Mecca]

Hey it's one thing to be wrong about a prospect, it's another to suggest he can play WR, the only thing that would make anyone think he could play WR is he's black it would have been like suggesting Matt Ryan can play some WR.

[Mecca]

Only to you and your "nobody is a all-knowing as I am" complex.

mmaddog
*******

What you said is one of the dumbest things I've ever read, bring up, most everyone will agree with me on this it was a really really dumb thing to say.

[Hammock Parties]

Hey it's one thing to be wrong about a prospect, it's another to suggest he can play WR, the only thing that would make anyone think he could play WR is he's black it would have been like suggesting Matt Ryan can play some WR.

Matt Ryan is tall, bro, he can get up there for those jump balls.

[Mecca]

Matt Ryan is tall, bro, he can get up there for those jump balls.

LOL, when he posted that the first time I honestly thought he was joking that's how absurd it is.

[ChiefsCountry]

Oh crap I forgot about the Woodson as WR stuff. That was comical.

[the Talking Can]

No...you have the same lack of reading comprehension skills that Mecca does.....so let me help your memory.

I said, and I said it all year not just after his horrible workouts, that his only option to be on an NFL roster was as a possession reciever. Not a full time, #1 Wideout.....he has good hands..knew what to do with the ball, and could probably be a good YAC guy. NOWHERE did I say he had speed or the skills to be a gamebreaker.

I even said the equivalent was Todd McNair, the Chief's 3rd Down back from a few years ago. He was THE BEST at finding a way to get the Chiefs a 1st down whenever they were 3rd and long.

Remember, you don't have to have speed to be a great receiver.....Bilitnekoff, Largent, hell even Hines Ward all were never fast but knew how to get open and make separation. It isn't always about speed....although a burner is necessary to spread the defense.

Get a clue before you type stuff.

mmaddog
*******

you really shouldn't try to explain it....it just sounds worse

[Mecca]

He should just say Andre Woodson is black and is named Andre Woodson so obviously I just assumed he could run, that would sound better, since people seem to always think black QB's can run.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

No...you have the same lack of reading comprehension skills that Mecca does.....so let me help your memory.

I said, and I said it all year not just after his horrible workouts, that his only option to be on an NFL roster was as a possession reciever. Not a full time, #1 Wideout.....he has good hands..knew what to do with the ball, and could probably be a good YAC guy.

Get a clue before you type stuff.

mmaddog
*******

Do you realize how many generalizations you had to make and conclusions you had to jump to when framing this crap argument?

I said you said he would be a WR.

You respond with "I never said he'd be a #1 gamebreaker, so HA."

Did I ever claim that was what you said?
No.

Does he have the speed to even be a possession receiver?
No.

Has he ever shown an ability to catch anything other than a Shotgun snap?
No.

Has he ever shown an ability to run a route?
No.

Has he ever shown any straight line speed, quickness, or agility?
No.

How then, would any of this lead to you thinking he could have good hands, would get good YAC, or would be a WR of any type?

And I'm the one who needs the clue?

Right.

[chiefs1111]

I have given up on us even having a chance to get Stafford anymore. The Lions will have the number 1 pick and will take him. Hopefully we can get a kick ass pass rusher when we pick..........

[Hammock Parties]

I have given up on us even having a chance to get Stafford anymore. The Lions will have the number 1 pick and will take him. Hopefully we can get a kick ass pass rusher when we pick..........

The Lions gave the Panthers a game Sunday...don't give up hope!

As long as Thigpen keeps fucking up...we have a chance...

[Mecca]

Aslong as we stay at 1 win there's a chance.

[SAUTO]

The Lions gave the Panthers a game Sunday...don't give up hope!

As long as Thigpen keeps fucking up...we have a chance...

fucking comical

[Hammock Parties]

fucking comical

Hey man he almost threw a touchdown on that pass to Bradley...his duck saved us 4 points...

[ChiefsCountry]

This is like deja vu from last year with the argument that we shouldnt take a DT.

[SAUTO]

Hey man he almost threw a touchdown on that pass to Bradley...his duck saved us 4 points...

hell ive watched peyton manning MISS wrs in that very situaton this year multiple times, at least it was still caught. and the duck comment is hilarious coming from the huatard blower

[Zouk]

LMAO @ a MLB #1 overall.

That pretty much says all you need to know about this guy.

You should think about how it can be logical that at various times in the last 10 years Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis have been the highest paid defensive players in football and yet it's impossible for a MLB to go #1.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You should think about how can it be logical that at various times in the last 10 years Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis have been the highest paid defensive players in football and yet it's impossible for a MLB to go #1.

Salary does not equate to value in the NFL. Is Nate Clements the best corner in the league or worthy of a #1 draft pick?

Are Michael Vick and Donovan McNabb better than Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning?

[SAUTO]

Salary does not equate to value in the NFL. Is Nate Clements the best corner in the league or worthy of a #1 draft pick?

Are Michael Vick and Donovan McNabb better than Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning?

i would say that in terms of wins/ playoff or otherwise mcnabb is right up there with manning and head and shoulders better than brees, are you forgetting 4 nfc champ games and 1 sb loss? with one wr who was a name player for 1 of those years AND a HC who has an aversion to running the ball?
where does brees have those credentials? manning either? he's won 1 sb yeah but how many times did he flop in the playoffs against any team other than the chiefs?

[Zouk]

Salary does not equate to value in the NFL. Is Nate Clements the best corner in the league or worthy of a #1 draft pick?

Are Michael Vick and Donovan McNabb better than Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning?

Relative salary is the absolute best measure of relative positional value to NFL management. Draft position is next. They tell the same story.

You won't find 1 let alone 2 safeties as the highest paid defensive player and they won't go #1. Same with right tackles, etc.

I actually think your lame argument tells me everything I need to know about you.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Relative salary is the absolute best measure of relative positional value to NFL management. Draft position is next. They tell the same story.

You won't find 1 let alone 2 safeties as the highest paid defensive player and they won't go #1. Same with right tackles, etc.

I actually think your lame argument tells me everything I need to know about you.

That I know substantially more about the NFL than you?

Why is it that merely good DE's and CBs are paid more than HOF MLBs?

Why is it that no LB has been taken #1 overall in 20 years?

Why is it that LBs are taken in the top five about once every 3-5 years and DE's go in the top five every year?

[Mecca]

You're trying to explain positional value to someone who doesn't really understand it.

[SAUTO]

You're trying to explain positional value to someone who doesn't really understand it.

funny how anytime someone disagrees you dismiss it as they dont understand

[Mecca]

funny how anytime someone disagrees you dismiss it as they dont understand

It's a simple point, he's not understanding positional value in the draft.

[Ebolapox]

Only to you and your "nobody is as all-knowing as I am" complex.

mmaddog
*******

I'm not on your OR mecca's side.

but what you've said is asinine. you don't put stone feet QBs at WR. regardless of how great their hands are, they'd get eaten alive in the nfl. couldn't get open, no separation.

are you serious?

[SAUTO]

It's a simple point, he's not understanding positional value in the draft.

i get that this time but you use that way too much

[Zouk]

Why is it that LBs are taken in the top five about once every 3-5 years and DE's go in the top five every year?

You don't get it. The question is: is it impossible for a middle linebacker to go #1. Not do pass rushers and corners go higher than middle linebackers usually - that's obvious.

NFL managers as a group have in at least 2 of the last 10 years said that the best middle linebacker in football is worth more than the best pass rusher or the best corner. That doesn't mean that usually the best middle linebacker is worth more than the best rusher or the best corner, but that it is absolutely possible for this judgement to be made.

The relative allocation of dollars in a salary cap world is clearly the best judgement of positional value. This is economics 101. You can say that the GMs of Chicago and Baltimore just made out of the mainstream allocation decisions , but this is clearly not true. There was no controversy about those contracts.

[MahiMike]

Football is a game of chess. The Queens(QB), bishops(OL/DL), rooks(RB) and knights(WR) are worth more than the pawns (all other positions).

[Tribal Warfare]

Football is a game of chess. The Queens(QB),



That's just too good LMAO ROFL

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You don't get it. The question is: is it impossible for a middle linebacker to go #1. Not do pass rushers and corners go higher than middle linebackers usually - that's obvious.

NFL managers as a group have in at least 2 of the last 10 years said that the best middle linebacker in football is worth more than the best pass rusher or the best corner. That doesn't mean that usually the best middle linebacker is worth more than the best rusher or the best corner, but that it is absolutely possible for this judgement to be made.

The relative allocation of dollars in a salary cap world is clearly the best judgement of positional value. This is economics 101. You can say that the GMs of Chicago and Baltimore just made out of the mainstream allocation decisions , but this is clearly not true. There was no controversy about those contracts.

I really don't understand why this is so hard to figure out:

Positional value on defense:

1. RDE
2. DT
3. CB
4. MLB
5. Safety

NFL Managers considered Nate Clements to be the best player in NFL history by your axim. They also considered Dwight Freeney to be the best ever. This year, they considered Jared Allen to be the best ever.

Trying to use free agent contracts to justify the worth of a player is one of the most asinine arguments I've ever heard on this forum. First of all, you aren't even dealing in a truly free market system because of the salary cap. That's why San Fran was able to throw out so much more money at their defenders, because they had cap room. If it was really based on worth, and everyone was set free, Champ Bailey is going to fetch a much higher salary.

Secondly, NFL teams have shown over and over that they will bid against themselves in order to retain home grown talent. Case in point--Larry Johnson. Is he really the second best RB in the league? According to your logic, he is. Moreover, was he really even worth his contract, given that we paid him 10 million more than any other team would? No. Just because we went Steinbrenner on our own player doesn't justify his worth.

Was Leonard Davis really worth more than Patrick Willis, Champ Bailey, James Harrison, John Henderson, Shawne Merriman, Aaron Kampman, John Abraham, Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, or DeMarcus Ware.

According to your logic, yes because of what he was paid despite the fact that he's a guard and plays the second least important position on offense.

Furthermore, the draft shows you throughout history that MLB does not hold anywhere near the value as do the aforementioned positions. The fact that you are even arguing this should cause you to be banned for dumbassery.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent response did you even approach anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having shared the same server with it.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Hammock Parties]

HAMAS DESTROYS ZOUK

MONUMENT TO BE ERECTED IN HIS NAME

PUNCH AND PIE FOR ALL

[Reerun_KC]

Hamas! Bravo! :clap:

[milkman]

So this guy is supposed to have insight from NFL scouts?

So He's saying that NFL scouts consider a guy that they consider a part time contributer among the best players.

28. Javon Ringer/RB/Michigan State: The Spartans Heisman Trophy candidate is in the midst of a wonderful senior campaign. He's a skilled ball carrier but lacks the true size and speed to be a feature runner at the next level.

I ain't buying it.

[RustShack]

So is that shitty Raiders DT one of the best ever because of his salary?

[kcbubb]

The Chiefs had an assload of rushing yards against the Bucs and had a decent ground game last week before they had to pass on practically every down.

The Chiefs run game has been horrible all year except for the Denver game. The only reason that the run game has improved is due to the threat of the passing game. Defenses are defending the pass first most of the time. The obvious proof of this is in the red zone where passing is more difficult. Have the Chiefs been able to run the ball in the red zone?

If you want to watch a running team, watch the NY Giants. The problem with the chiefs is that do not have the personnel to stop the run or have a power running game. They need to draft with that in mind.

[kcbubb]

Look at the first throw Stafford makes in this video. Incredible. And god his footwork is amazing.
<

He looks great against GA Southern! Stafford may end up being a great QB, but if you look at most of those plays, they are play action passes. Stafford has the benefit of a great running game with Moreno running the football out of the I-formation. Has KC been able to run the ball to have play action passes be effective? I think it has been the other way around. The run is beginning to work because of the pass.

KC has too many weaknesses to spend a 1st rounder on a QB. It wouldn't matter if they had Tom Brady. If you can't stop the run or run the football, you can't win. As a matter of fact, Brady may have done worse than Thigpen because of his lack of mobility and the inability of the offensive line to protect for throws down the field, which is Brady's strength.

He are the Chiefs defensive stats for the year:

PTS 27.3 (28th)
YDS 402.5 (32nd)
PASS YDS 237.1 (27th)
RUSH YDS 165.4 (31st)

[Hammock Parties]

The Chiefs run game has been horrible all year except for the Denver game.

Most of the time, yes, but they had 180 yards against the Bucs, or somesuch. Defied logic.

[kcbubb]

Most of the time, yes, but they had 180 yards against the Bucs, or somesuch. Defied logic.

My point is that the chiefs are so bad at so many areas that you are setting up Stafford for failure. Stafford is on a team where teams must defend the run. The Chiefs success in running the football has been set up by the pass. If we pick Stafford, he will have totally different set of circumstances and his chances of success are worse than Thigpens. Do you remember that our top two quarterbacks got killed trying to run an offense based on running the ball and the play action pass? Does that offense not remind you of Georgia's???? If we had a solid offensive line and could run the ball and our main problem was at QB like Minnesota, then I would suggest drafting Stafford.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

\
you KEEP saying that and you continue to be WRONG. i HAVE watched stafford play quite a few times. while i was impressed with his arm i WAS NOT impressed with his decision making. You also continue to say decision making doesnt matter because he's young, Thigpen is young too i believe and while playing IN THE NFL he's thrown 1 int(in garbage time) in the last 4 games. So you can say whatever you want but the PROOF is in the pudding

Mmmm...molasses. Stafford; matriculating slowly across the field like molasses in the wintertime. :D

[Hammock Parties]

If we had a solid offensive line and could run the ball and our main problem was at QB like Minnesota, then I would suggest drafting Stafford.

I think we're pretty close to having a good OL. There are pieces in place. We need a right tackle and a right guard and we'll be good enough up front to field a consistent running game. Bringing in a coach who can actually identify offensive line talent will be a huge boon (Herm can't).

[chiefzilla1501]

Here's a cherry on top of that sundae. Some of the most expensive free agents right now are guards. Guards are fairly low impact players. The reason they're getting paid so much is because it's one of a handful of positions where teams are actually letting their starting player leave.

Left tackles don't hit the market because teams are furiously trying to lock them down before they ever hit the open market. QBs too. When was the last time a pro bowl calibre LT or QB hit the market?

What's ironic is, because teams are trying harder to protect their best players, the inferior players that they let go now have a much higher market value. Guards are grossly overpaid in the free agent market and it's only because it's one of the few positions where good players are available.

I really don't understand why this is so hard to figure out:

Positional value on defense:

1. RDE
2. DT
3. CB
4. MLB
5. Safety

NFL Managers considered Nate Clements to be the best player in NFL history by your axim. They also considered Dwight Freeney to be the best ever. This year, they considered Jared Allen to be the best ever.

Trying to use free agent contracts to justify the worth of a player is one of the most asinine arguments I've ever heard on this forum. First of all, you aren't even dealing in a truly free market system because of the salary cap. That's why San Fran was able to throw out so much more money at their defenders, because they had cap room. If it was really based on worth, and everyone was set free, Champ Bailey is going to fetch a much higher salary.

Secondly, NFL teams have shown over and over that they will bid against themselves in order to retain home grown talent. Case in point--Larry Johnson. Is he really the second best RB in the league? According to your logic, he is. Moreover, was he really even worth his contract, given that we paid him 10 million more than any other team would? No. Just because we went Steinbrenner on our own player doesn't justify his worth.

Was Leonard Davis really worth more than Patrick Willis, Champ Bailey, James Harrison, John Henderson, Shawne "roidman" Merriman, Aaron Kampman, John Abraham, Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, or DeMarcus Ware.

According to your logic, yes because of what he was paid despite the fact that he's a guard and plays the second least important position on offense.

Furthermore, the draft shows you throughout history that MLB does not hold anywhere near the value as do the aforementioned positions. The fact that you are even arguing this should cause you to be banned for dumbassery.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent response did you even approach anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having shared the same server with it.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

KC has too many weaknesses to spend a 1st rounder on a QB. It wouldn't matter if they had Tom Brady.

Thanks for bringing us another True Fan, dipshit, TE.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Thanks for bringing us another True Fan, dipshit, TE.

NOTE TO SELF:

"Remove 'Hamas' Jenkins from Welcoming Committee".

END NOTE.
LMAO

['Hamas' Jenkins]

My point is that the chiefs are so bad at so many areas that you are setting up Stafford for failure. Stafford is on a team where teams must defend the run. The Chiefs success in running the football has been set up by the pass. If we pick Stafford, he will have totally different set of circumstances and his chances of success are worse than Thigpens. Do you remember that our top two quarterbacks got killed trying to run an offense based on running the ball and the play action pass? Does that offense not remind you of Georgia's???? If we had a solid offensive line and could run the ball and our main problem was at QB like Minnesota, then I would suggest drafting Stafford.

If you are drafting at the top, you aren't going to drop any QB into a ready-made situation. It's not happening. This isn't Madden '09. You can't trade your shit players on a good team for #1 overall.

99% of QBs aren't as lucky as Ben Roethlisberger.

Basically, your logic says never draft a quarterback high in the draft because they will be set up for failure.

The fact of the matter is that the Chiefs can get two offensive linemen in the middle rounds of the draft, or even one, sign another decent FA, and their line will be more than good enough to run the ball with consistency.

Furthermore, now that Herm is running for his life, he's going to be far more amenable to opening up the offense. Compound that with the fact that he's going to be in "save my ass mode", he's going to play Thigpen from the start knowing that he doesn't want "rookie mistakes" thus giving a young QB more time to actually sit back and learn the pro game.

No one here has suggested that Stafford will be dropped in from day one if we draft him.

[chiefzilla1501]

My concern continues to be whether Stafford is getting so much hype because he's the top QB in the class and because KC really wants a QBOTF, or if it's because he's actually this good. That's the contention I have. A QB has been taken in the top 5 in the last umpteen drafts. Sorry, but outside of Kansas City or other teams who are fighting for top 5 picks, I hardly hear any major buzz about Stafford. You heard non-stop buzz about Carson Palmer and Eli Manning. You hear close to nothing about Stafford. For a big-time QB going to a big-time school, that's something I wouldn't expect.

Which begs the question, if you take yourself out of the bubble of fans who badly want a QBOTF, how does Stafford really stack up? I think there's a quiet excitement, but I don't think it's anywhere near some of the surefire QB prospects we've seen go into the draft. Hell, at least Matt Ryan was considered a strong candidate for the Heisman early in the season.



If you are drafting at the top, you aren't going to drop any QB into a ready-made situation. It's not happening. This isn't Madden '09. You can't trade your shit players on a good team for #1 overall.

99% of QBs aren't as lucky as Ben Roethlisberger.

Basically, your logic says never draft a quarterback high in the draft because they will be set up for failure.

The fact of the matter is that the Chiefs can get two offensive linemen in the middle rounds of the draft, or even one, sign another decent FA, and their line will be more than good enough to run the ball with consistency.

Furthermore, now that Herm is running for his life, he's going to be far more amenable to opening up the offense. Compound that with the fact that he's going to be in "save my ass mode", he's going to play Thigpen from the start knowing that he doesn't want "rookie mistakes" thus giving a young QB more time to actually sit back and learn the pro game.

No one here has suggested that Stafford will be dropped in from day one if we draft him.

[Zouk]

NFL Managers considered Nate Clements to be the best player in NFL history by your axim. They also considered Dwight Freeney to be the best ever. This year, they considered Jared Allen to be the best ever.


You keep talking about specific players when that's not the point at all. We're talking about positional value. The NFL deemed a corner to be worth the most (although I wouldn't even count that because there was no season in which Clements was highest paid), then a defensive end (Freeney), then another defensive end (Allen). Julius Peppers will be next and he's another defensive end.

Seems to me that top salary is correlating with the position you think is most valuable. Which any idiot could have told you would obviously be the case. But in 20% of the years in the last decade, a middle linebacker was the player deemed to be worth the most. A safety never was. A sam linebacker never was. Were those just 2 bad out-of-whack contracts like the one given to Clements? Possibly. But I think if you polled NFL GMs they definitely would have said Ray Lewis was the most valuable defensive player in the start of the decade and that at least some would have said Urlacher was the most valuable when the Bears made the Super Bowl.

So a middle linebacker is almost never the position worth the most. But in some cases they have shown that they can be. And in a year where a smart analyst like Pauline is saying that Maulauga is the top prospect and that scouts are telling him that no QB is considered top 5, this could be the first year it happens in a long time.

Now you're going to rip me in all kinds of funny ways and the fanboys like Claythan will probably go wild. That's cool - you're good at what you do and I enjoy it myself. I'm not skilled at message board warfare and this is definitely your turf. But I know that in the world of logic you haven't laid a glove on me. And every player agent, personnel man, and scout that is paid to do this stuff would agree with me.

[SAUTO]

Now you're going to rip me in all kinds of funny ways and the fanboys like Claythan will probably go wild. That's cool - you're good at what you do and I enjoy it myself. I'm not skilled at message board warfare and this is definitely your turf. But I know that in the world of logic you haven't laid a glove on me. And every player agent, personnel man, and scout that is paid to do this stuff would agree with me.

wow great quote.

[ChiefsCountry]

Sorry, but outside of Kansas City or other teams who are fighting for top 5 picks, I hardly hear any major buzz about Stafford.

Does Cincinnati need a QB? Does Oakland? Does St. Louis?

That answers your question right there.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Does Cincinnati need a QB? Does Oakland? Does St. Louis?

That answers your question right there.

Actually, there's been a lot of talk here in STL about them taking a QB in the 1st.

More often than not, the name that is brought up is Bradford, not Stafford.

I'm sure the B12 bias has a lot to do with that, along with people probably thinking that Bradford's not quite ready, and could sit a year or two behind Bulger, who will be 32 in April.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You keep talking about specific players when that's not the point at all. We're talking about positional value. The NFL deemed a corner to be worth the most (although I wouldn't even count that because there was no season in which Clements was highest paid), then a defensive end (Freeney), then another defensive end (Allen). Julius Peppers will be next and he's another defensive end.

Seems to me that top salary is correlating with the position you think is most valuable. Which any idiot could have told you would obviously be the case. But in 20% of the years in the last decade, a middle linebacker was the player deemed to be worth the most. A safety never was. A sam linebacker never was. Were those just 2 bad out-of-whack contracts like the one given to Clements? Possibly. But I think if you polled NFL GMs they definitely would have said Ray Lewis was the most valuable defensive player in the start of the decade and that at least some would have said Urlacher was the most valuable when the Bears made the Super Bowl.

So a middle linebacker is almost never the position worth the most. But in some cases they have shown that they can be. And in a year where a smart analyst like Pauline is saying that Maulauga is the top prospect and that scouts are telling him that no QB is considered top 5, this could be the first year it happens in a long time.

Now you're going to rip me in all kinds of funny ways and the fanboys like Claythan will probably go wild. That's cool - you're good at what you do and I enjoy it myself. I'm not skilled at message board warfare and this is definitely your turf. But I know that in the world of logic you haven't laid a glove on me. And every player agent, personnel man, and scout that is paid to do this stuff would agree with me.

A sam linebacker hasn't been drafted #1 overall.
Nor has any safety.

You haven't attempted to refute anything that I've said about positional value, moreover, I defy you to cull up more than 5% of mocks that show Mauluga being the #1 overall pick--it ain't happening.

He's not even as good of a prospect as Patrick Willis, who didn't even go in the top 10.

As far as your blatant lie about Nate Clements

49er's make Clements Highest Paid Defender Ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2786253) from the notoriously unreliable ESPN.

Furthermore, you've addressed nothing about the cap, nor the fact that the players aren't hitting a legitimately free market, nor the fact that the best players never even hit the free agent market.

You are also grossly incorrect about Urlacher, as he was at no point the highest paid defender in history (http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1564403.html).

You can attempt to play passive-aggressive victim by claiming that I'm engaging in message board warfare, or you can actually try and refute something that I've said with evidence instead of wholesale dishonesty.

Your choice. Back up what you've said with something honest for once.

[Hammock Parties]

Fatality!

[smittysbar]

Hamas owns Zouk!!!!

[Mecca]

Zouk is gonna tell him to get on the bus, or that he plays to win the game.

[ChiefsCountry]

I defy you to cull up more than 5% of mocks that show Mauluga being the #1 overall pick--it ain't happening.


http://www.walterfootball.com/draftdata.php

[Zouk]

A sam linebacker hasn't been drafted #1 overall.
Nor has any safety.

You haven't attempted to refute anything that I've said about positional value, moreover, I defy you to cull up more than 5% of mocks that show Mauluga being the #1 overall pick--it ain't happening.

He's not even as good of a prospect as Patrick Willis, who didn't even go in the top 10.

As far as your blatant lie about Nate Clements

49er's make Clements Highest Paid Defender Ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2786253) from the notoriously unreliable ESPN.

Furthermore, you've addressed nothing about the cap, nor the fact that the players aren't hitting a legitimately free market, nor the fact that the best players never even hit the free agent market.

You are also grossly incorrect about Urlacher, as he was at no point the highest paid defender in history (http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1564403.html).

You can attempt to play passive-aggressive victim by claiming that I'm engaging in message board warfare, or you can actually try and refute something that I've said with evidence instead of wholesale dishonesty.

Your choice. Back up what you've said with something honest for once.

Exactly my point - no sambacker or safety has ever been highest paid and none will ever go #1. Middle linebackers have been highest paid, and it is possible they will go #1.

I frankly don't know if Maualuga will go #1. He'd obviously have to run under 4.6. If he doesn't he has no chance. He'd also need the Lions to dislike Stafford. We don't even know who'll be making that decision. I do know that a MLB will go #1 overall someday.

I didn't lie about Clements - I said he was never the highest paid defensive player during a football season. He was highest paid for 3 months in the offseason before Freeney got his deal in June.

As far as the cap and who hits the free market- neither Freeney, Allen, Urlacher, or Lewis ever hit the free market. Neither will Peppers. Yet all were the highest paid.

I'm also not comparing players. I don't think Freeney was the best end in 07, Allen in 08, then Peppers in 09. I'm just saying end was consistently the highest paid defensive position because it's valued the highest. I still find it a little weird that this point is arguable.

I never talked about highest paid players in history - I only talked about highest paid for a given year. I googled something that said Urlacher was highest paid D player after he signed his deal in 2003, but I'm not solid on that. He was at least close. (According to this link he was highest paid: http://chi.scout.com/2/114538.html)

Whatever man - you just want to rant and rave and call people dumbasses for saying that something unlikely is possible - not even that it's likely. This works great until the once in 20 or 30 times that thing happens. I don't claim to be or at all feel like a victim - I just want to let you know I get your schtick and am not bothered in the least. Hurl insults as you wish.

[theteknique]

Hello How are you guys Im new to this post I think that you might wanna think about detroit taking the best left tackle or they could even go on the d line they need receiver help as well.

[SAUTO]

Does Cincinnati need a QB? Does Oakland? Does St. Louis?
That answers your question right there.

YES, YES AND MAYBE