Cap room

[Zouk]

The Chiefs have twice as much cap room as the next closest team.

Next year when the Surtain contract comes off the cap, we will have even more.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2008/12/monday-money-matters-14/

[Brock]

That's wonderful news for somebody.

[Zouk]

We're going to give Derrick Johnson a nice big contract probably just because we need to pay somebody.

I still have doubts Suggs will hit the market - but if he does back up the truck. Julius Peppers has zero chance of getting out of Carolina.

Luckily for us the free agent class this offseason is much better than last year's. Although one of the better right tackles slated to hit the market (Marc Colombo) just resigned with the Cowboys today.

[Bowser]

We are going to be around 25 million under the cap for as long as this rennovation takes place.

[Zouk]

It's really about cash budgeting. In 2007, the Chiefs laid out a good amount of cash for bonuses to Gonzalez, LJ, Donnie Edwards, Bowe, and high base salaries for Surtain and Law.

In 2008, the only significant bonuses went to Dorsey and Albert. It was a very cash light year.

I think they planned their cash budgeting to go up this year - probably anticipating/hoping for an extension for Croyle. Now that won't happen - and we still have Thigpen cheap for 2 more years plus Surtain as the last of the big bad contracts to come off the books. Even with being one of the lowest spending teams, we'll still have the resources for 3 or more decent-sized contracts.

[EyePod]

It's really about cash budgeting. In 2007, the Chiefs laid out a good amount of cash for bonuses to Gonzalez, LJ, Donnie Edwards, Bowe, and high base salaries for Surtain and Law.

In 2008, the only significant bonuses went to Dorsey and Albert. It was a very cash light year.

I think they planned their cash budgeting to go up this year - probably anticipating/hoping for an extension for Croyle. Now that won't happen - and we still have Thigpen cheap for 2 more years plus Surtain as the last of the big bad contracts to come off the books. Even with being one of the lowest spending teams, we'll still have the resources for 3 or more decent-sized contracts.

I hope we don't sign Thiggy to a long term deal until after next season, or if he starts out flying.

[Zouk]

I hope we don't sign Thiggy to a long term deal until after next season, or if he starts out flying.

We have no incentive to. As a second year player we have his rights locked up.

[Reerun_KC]

We have no incentive to. As a second year player we have his rights locked up.

True, but we are talking about the Chiefs, not a NFL franchise...

[Micjones]

Some of that jack will go towards resigning Johnson, but we'll definitely have some room to bring in a couple impact FA's.

[the Talking Can]

The Chiefs have twice as much cap room as the next closest team.

Next year when the Surtain contract comes off the cap, we will have even more.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2008/12/monday-money-matters-14/

so you're saying we should trade down to save money?

[Zouk]

so you're saying we should trade down to save money?

What? We don't need to do anything to save money - money's no obstacle at all.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Some of that jack will go towards resigning Johnson, but we'll definitely have some room to bring in a couple impact FA's.

Hopefully it's a very modest amount of jack.

[Micjones]

Hopefully it's a very modest amount of jack.

You mean the Johnson contract?

[Zouk]

Johnson being a mediocre player is really the final kick in the pants of the Vermeil era young player acquisition being the absolute worst in the league by a wide wide margin.

[the Talking Can]

What? We don't need to do anything to save money - money's no obstacle at all.

it was joke, mcfly...

[EyePod]

True, but we are talking about the Chiefs, not a NFL franchise...

Yeah, it always pissed me off that we kept Thigpen on our roster, even when Huard and Croyle were OK. Didn't Herm know that you could have 1 emergency QB? ARGHH!!! I mean, I know it's different with that one game when we used about 30 QB's, but otherwise, there's no excuse.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Hopefully this means we can make a push to sign LeBron James.

[Direckshun]

Hopefully this means we can make a push to sign LeBron James.

ROFL

DJ won't command that big of a contract. It'll be something modest and fairly well handled. DJ's not "holdout" caliber.

Honestly, there hasn't been a signing other than Drummond that's been mishandled financially the past couple years. Carl's been on his absolute best behavior.

[Zouk]

Honestly, there hasn't been a signing other than Drummond that's been mishandled financially the past couple years. Carl's been on his absolute best behavior.

Napoleon Harris got a 6 million signing bonus.

Also - why is Donnie Edwards on this team?

[RedThat]

Napoleon Harris got a 6 million signing bonus.

Also - why is Donnie Edwards on this team?

Donnie Edwards is on this team because of Carl imo.

I recall Carl saying something along the lines a while back like, "Letting Donnie go was one of the biggest mistakes I made."

He thought Donnie could play till he was 37? I remember him saying something like that too.

I think this move was based more off Carl's emotion then anything.

[cookster50]

What? We don't need to do anything to save money - money's no obstacle at all.

Someones sarcasm meter is out of order.

[BigChiefFan]

Johnson being a mediocre player is really the final kick in the pants of the Vermeil era young player acquisition being the absolute worst in the league by a wide wide margin.The best defensive player we've had for the past five years, was a VERMEIL Pick-kind of blows your theory out of the water, huh?

[kysirsoze]

The best defensive player we've had for the past five years, was a VERMEIL Pick-kind of blows your theory out of the water, huh?

I agree. Johnson might not be an elite linebacker, but I think he's a great player. He's almost always around the ball and when he's injured the whole defense suffers. (Based on my own observation. Way to lazy to crunch stats.)

[BigChiefFan]

I agree. Johnson might not be an elite linebacker, but I think he's a great player. He's almost always around the ball and when he's injured the whole defense suffers. (Based on my own observation. Way to lazy to crunch stats.)
I was actually referring to Jared Allen, but DJ ranks as one of the better/best defensive players on the Chiefs(which isn't saying much), so we are in agreement because he's a Vermeil pick, as well.

Besides, Flowers I haven't seen Herm's impact defensive players and he's drafted several. Herm's defense is one of the worst I've ever seen and I thought GR's was the worst. Hey, at least we're young.

[Reerun_KC]

Yeah, it always pissed me off that we kept Thigpen on our roster, even when Huard and Croyle were OK. Didn't Herm know that you could have 1 emergency QB? ARGHH!!! I mean, I know it's different with that one game when we used about 30 QB's, but otherwise, there's no excuse.

I think you missed my sarcasm..... Thats okay though...

[Micjones]

And it looks like we're going to go back to the D-Line well come April.
How many Day 1 picks does that group need to be productive?
Sheesh.

[bowener]

I agree. Johnson might not be an elite linebacker, but I think he's a great player. He's almost always around the ball and when he's injured the whole defense suffers. (Based on my own observation. Way to lazy to crunch stats.)

He has also stood behind mediocre to terrible D-lines most of his career, backed by medicore to terrible DB's for most of his career.

[Reerun_KC]

I was actually referring to Jared Allen, but DJ ranks as one of the better/best defensive players on the Chiefs(which isn't saying much), so we are in agreement because he's a Vermeil pick, as well.

Besides, Flowers I haven't seen Herm's impact defensive players and he's drafted several. Herm's defense is one of the worst I've ever seen and I thought GR's was the worst. Hey, at least we're young.

I will say Carr, Flowers, Albert and maybe this Leggett kid could become something..

Other than that, we have wifted on just about every thing Herm has drafted...

[bowener]

And it looks like we're going to go back to the D-Line well come April.
How many Day 1 picks does that group need to be productive?
Sheesh.

1.

A new talented DC who can coach players and get the most out of them.

[Reerun_KC]

He has also stood behind mediocre to terrible D-lines most of his career, backed by medicore to terrible DB's for most of his career.

Well up until Herm arrived and fixed that terrible Defense....

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I will say Carr, Flowers, maybe this Leggett kid could become something..

Other than that, we have wifted on just about every thing Herm has drafted...

:spock:

What about Dorsey and Albert? Are we already giving up on Charles, Cottam, Morgan, and Franklin? Bowe? Tyler?

[Micjones]

I will say Carr, Flowers, Albert and maybe this Leggett kid could become something..

Other than that, we have wifted on just about every thing Herm has drafted...

Herm's found some serviceable guys defensively, but no one special...
Well... Prior to drafting Brandon Flowers. I think he's going to be...

[Reerun_KC]

1.

A new talented DC who can coach players and get the most out of them.

Time to promote that Bunting character to DC....

[BigChiefFan]

I will say Carr, Flowers, Albert and maybe this Leggett kid could become something..

Other than that, we have wifted on just about every thing Herm has drafted...
I envision Carr as the nickle or dime back and Leggett filling the other spot. Utimately, we could use another stud opposite Flowers, IMO.

[Reerun_KC]

Herm's found some serviceable guys defensively, but no one special...
Well... Prior to drafting Brandon Flowers. I think he's going to be...

Serviceable? At this point I guess serviceable is all we have to debate on.

Flowers has a chance to be a Pro Bowl CB, Carr and Leggett have a chance to be very solid DB's....

I will give Herm credit, his secondaries here are getting better, His DL and LB corps are getting worse, His eye for talent and development on any other position on the field is suspect at best...

Herm should be no more than a DB back coach....

[Reerun_KC]

I envision Carr as the nickle or dime back and Leggett filling the other spot. Utimately, we could use another stud opposite Flowers, IMO.

Not bad for a free agent out of Valdosta State...

[kysirsoze]

1.

A new talented DC who can coach players and get the most out of them.

Agreed. Gunther's approach is outdated. It was amazing in the 90's but it hasn't worked whatsoever this last go around. It may be that he just doesn't fit with Herm's philosophy but either way if Herm's sticking around then we need someone who's on the same page with him and can utilize the obvious young talent that is all over that defense.

[BigChiefFan]

:spock:

What about Dorsey and Albert? Are we already giving up on Charles, Cottam, Morgan, and Franklin? Bowe? Tyler?We're talking DEFENSE, besides Dorsey and Morgan, none of those players you mentioned apply.

The jury is still way out on either one of those players, as of now-they are certainly aren't out-performing Vermeil's guys(which isn't saying much, other than Herm's guys REALLY SUCK ass on defense),Minus the mentioned corners in previous conversations.

[Zouk]

The best defensive player we've had for the past five years, was a VERMEIL Pick-kind of blows your theory out of the water, huh?

Of the 39 draft picks from the Vermeil/Styles era, only 7 are likely to still be employed by next fall (and I don't just mean the Chiefs - I mean the entire NFL).

I think my theory holds up very well.

[Reerun_KC]

Agreed. Gunther's approach is outdated. It was amazing in the 90's but it hasn't worked whatsoever this last go around. It may be that he just doesn't fit with Herm's philosophy but either way if Herm's sticking around then we need someone who's on the same page with him and can utilize the obvious young talent that is all over that defense.

I wish we were at least trying to run Guns approach, This God&*&&O(*& freaking Tampon 2 is just driving me nuts...

I am not saying Gun is going to turn around this defense, develop players or get us respectable, but we will never be worth a shit if we dont scrap Herms Cover 2 shit and get someone in here with a freaking clue....

['Hamas' Jenkins]

We're talking DEFENSE, besides Dorsey and Morgan, none of those players you mentioned apply.

The jury is still way out on either one of those players, as of now-they are certainly aren't out-performing Vermeil's guys(which isn't saying much, other than Herm's guys REALLY SUCK ass on defense),Minus the mentioned corners in previous conversations.

Tyler would still apply, and you can't say we totally whiffed on Page, either.

[BigChiefFan]

Of the 39 draft picks from the Vermeil/Styles era, only 7 are likely to still be employed by next fall.

I think my theory holds up very well.Which Herm player has out performed a Vermeil player on defense? Yep, Herm and that Stellar defense mind-set, can't even out-perform an old special teams coach. Herm-the legendary defensive football coach.

33% winning percentage in Kansas City.ROFL

[BigChiefFan]

Tyler would still apply, and you can't say we totally whiffed on Page, either.
Tyler is okay-I actually expected more out of him at this point. Page, while he has certainly out-performed his draft slotting, I wouldn't consider him a quality starter, who has the position locked down.

[Zouk]

Which Herm player has out performed a Vermeil player on defense? Yep, Herm and that Stellar defense mind-set, can't even out-perform an old special teams coach. Herm-the legendary defensive football coach.

33% winning percentage in Kansas City.ROFL

We are where we are because we have no good homegrown players in their second contracts except Larry Johnson. No one in the league - not even Detroit - can match that scarcity. You can't expect to compete with a team full of guys in their 3rd year or less. We're taking our medicine to fix this problem for real without any band-aids.

[BigChiefFan]

We are where we are because we have no good homegrown players in their second contracts except Larry Johnson. No one in the league - not even Detroit - can match that scarcity. You can't expect to compete with a team full of guys in their 3rd year or less. We're taking our medicine to fix this problem for real without any band-aids.Besides Dorsey and Flowers, who exactly are they building the team around on defense? What stellar defensive player of Herm's can we absolutely not live without?

For $3 million a year, I can and DO EXPECT the man to IMPROVE the team from the previous regime. He has NOT done that, not even close.

33% winning percentage in Kansas City is PUTRID and grounds for dismissal.

[Micjones]

Flowers has a chance to be a Pro Bowl CB

I agree.

Herm should be no more than a DB back coach....

My sentiments exactly.

[Zouk]

Besides Dorsey and Flowers, who exactly are they building the team around on defense? What stellar defensive player of Herm's can we absolutely not live without?

For $3 million a year, I can and DO EXPECT the man to IMPROVE the team from the previous regime. He has NOT done that, not even close.

33% winning percentage in Kansas City is PUTRID and grounds for dismissal.

I don't agree that Herm should be fired but I recognize it as a reasonable position. Herm failing is not mutually exclusive with the fact that he inherited a terrible roster situation with by far the least amount of young talent of any team in the league.

[Hootie]

I really wish we would have signed Lance Briggs...

3/1/2008: Signed a six-year, $36 million contract. The deal contains $13 million in guarantees, including a $4 million signing bonus and annual $250,000 workout bonuses.

We could have given him $17M guaranteed and he'd have accepted in a heartbeat...he had no loyalties to the Bears, in fact, he hated the management there...and the dude is a beast and plays in a system that is similar to the one that Herm runs.

[Hootie]

Personally, I'm ok with Page/Pollard/Morgan/Flowers/Carr/Leggett...I think they can be a great secondary if we ever had a pass rush...

Seriously, you can't compete on defense when you have zero pass rush...

[Micjones]

I'm one of a very few people that doesn't think our Safeties should be sent packing.

[beach tribe]

I'm one of a very few people that doesn't think our Safeties should be sent packing.

I don't think they should be sent packing. I think they will make great back-ups, and special teamers.

Special teams are important too.

[Micjones]

I don't think they should be sent packing. I think they will make great back-ups, and special teamers.

Special teams are important too.

I'm willing to live with both Pollard and Page keeping their jobs next year.
Unless Morgan plays his way into a starting role.

We have so many other holes to fill.

[beach tribe]

I'm willing to live with both Pollard and Page keeping their jobs next year.
Unless Morgan plays his way into a starting role.

We have so many other holes to fill.

I can see that. I have no problem with them for another year, or however long it takes to find replacements at good value. They are not the worst of our problems, but they don't get a career pass either. Morgan must take Page's job or he was wasted pick IMO, and a new SS is also in order.

[Micjones]

I can see that. I have no problem with them for another year, or however long it takes to find replacements at good value. They are not the worst of our problems, but they don't get a career pass either. Morgan must take Page's job or he was wasted pick IMO, and a new SS is also in order.

No player should get a career pass.

I just think guys like Pollard, Page, and Niswanger will have to do for now.
They're all still relatively young guys who contribute.

[BigChiefFan]

I don't agree that Herm should be fired but I recognize it as a reasonable position. Herm failing is not mutually exclusive with the fact that he inherited a terrible roster situation with by far the least amount of young talent of any team in the league.
Three years is ample time to see the progress of the team-we've gone backwards. Herm FIRMLY hitched his wagon to BRODIE CROYLE and we all see how that panned out-the man's plan was terrible, with HUARD as the re-signee to LEAD the team, in case of Croyle failure. That in itself, shows the quality decisions this man lacks and the VISION of the team.

Just because I agree with developing your own players, doesn't mean I agree Herm deserves more time. $3 million PER YEAR says otherwise when you add that to a 33% winning percentage in THREE YEARS TIME. How anybody can justify keeping a coach around that has shown very little improvement in three yeas time is laughable in my book. Did you see Vermeil's roster when he inherited the team? Vermeil turned second tier players into quality role players-yes, his defense was pretty damn awful, as well, but he managed to WIN GAMES-with the same crap defense-that leaves Herm running out of excuses.

[ROYC75]

What 30 year old vets do you see not returning next year ?

[BigChiefFan]

With that much cap room, living with just "that will have to do" means they are just being cheap and not ADDRESSING IMPROVING the team. There is absolutely, NO EXCUSE, to not attempt to upgrade EVERY POSITION, they deem a priority.

[Micjones]

With that much cap room, living with just "that will have to do" means they are just being cheap and not ADDRESSING IMPROVING the team. There is absolutely, NO EXCUSE, to not attempt to upgrade EVERY POSITION, they deem a priority.

I agree.

And I doubt seriously that they will deem Safety a priority position.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

It won't matter who we sign.

Next year's home schedule...

Dallas Cowboys

· New York Giants

· Pittsburgh Steelers

· Denver Broncos

· San Diego Chargers

· Oakland Raiders

· Cleveland Browns

· One AFC East Opponent


Haven't seen the road schedule yet. ugh.

[The Franchise]

What 30 year old vets do you see not returning next year ?

Patrick Surtain

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm one of a very few people that doesn't think our Safeties should be sent packing.

You're not alone.

I think Pollard's gotten better over the last few games and Page is what he is--he's a free safety, and they're supposed to be better in coverage usually than stopping the run.

They have a ton of field to cover, as they cover the entire deep part of the field, with each safety having a full half-field to cover. When you don't have a pass rush, these are the guys that get screwed the most.

I think Page is pretty decent in coverage and he's a ballhawk. But when QBs get really comfortable waiting in the pocket, there's only so much you can do.

[beach tribe]

It won't matter who we sign.

Next year's home schedule...

Dallas Cowboys

· New York Giants

· Pittsburgh Steelers

· Denver Broncos

· San Diego Chargers

· Oakland Raiders

· Cleveland Browns

· One AFC East Opponent


Haven't seen the road schedule yet. ugh.

With a little improvement, we could beat the majority of those teams.

[royr17]

Patrick Surtain

what about Quinn Gray, Damion McIntosh, Ron Edwards, Alfonso Boone, and Jon McGraw ?

David Macklin wont be back, he hasnt seen the field yet this year. Have heard reports that Brian Waters is considering retiring, Donnie Edwards and Damon Huard will probably retire.

[DaneMcCloud]

Have heard reports that Brian Waters is considering retiring

Where? And from whom?

He's 31, nearly 32. Far from retirement age.

I call bullshit.

[DaneMcCloud]

The best defensive player we've had for the past five years, was a VERMEIL Pick-kind of blows your theory out of the water, huh?

Yay! 1 pick out of 39! Woo-hoo!

[Micjones]

You're not alone.

I think Pollard's gotten better over the last few games and Page is what he is--he's a free safety, and they're supposed to be better in coverage usually than stopping the run.

They have a ton of field to cover, as they cover the entire deep part of the field, with each safety having a full half-field to cover. When you don't have a pass rush, these are the guys that get screwed the most.

I think Page is pretty decent in coverage and he's a ballhawk. But when QBs get really comfortable waiting in the pocket, there's only so much you can do.

Pollard's definitely improved in my view. He just has to learn to settle for just getting a ball carrier on the ground sometimes. Constantly trying to deliver the killshot costs us additional yardage and TD's. I like that they try to instill fear into opposing players though.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It won't matter who we sign.

Next year's home schedule...

Dallas Cowboys

· New York Giants

· Pittsburgh Steelers

· Denver Broncos

· San Diego Chargers

· Oakland Raiders

· Cleveland Browns

· One AFC East Opponent


Haven't seen the road schedule yet. ugh.

Well, just based off that list:

Philly
Washington
Baltimore
Cincinatti
San Diego
Denver
Oakland
??? (not sure who the other rotational game would be - maybe the last place AFC south team?)

[Micjones]

It won't matter who we sign.

Next year's home schedule...

Dallas Cowboys

· New York Giants

· Pittsburgh Steelers

· Denver Broncos

· San Diego Chargers

· Oakland Raiders

· Cleveland Browns

· One AFC East Opponent


Haven't seen the road schedule yet. ugh.

Jesus, Mary, and Jo-Jo!!!

That's 4 possibly 5 playoff teams.

[PastorMikH]

Too bad we didn't make a priority out of resigning some of our players this year when we could take the full signing bonus hit on this year's cap instead of waiting until we don't have cap space a year or two from now.

[BigChiefFan]

Yay! 1 pick out of 39! Woo-hoo!
It's still pretty damning, considering Herm is a Defensive Guy and Vermeil was a Special Teams guru. Again, I like the idea of building through the draft, unfortunately, Herm has little to show for it on defense, when it comes to the topic.

THREE YEARS years into this, his team is just as bad, if not worse, than Vermeil's defense. We are paying Herm $3 MILLION PER YEAR. Where's the improvement? The youth argument only goes so far, when you can point to only TWO potential PBers that Herm has added on defense. That's supposed to be his, expertise.


The fact, that he's a FORMER SCOUT, also means he's REALLY underperforming, given, his picks, should be the cream of the crop, if he was really a profound scout in the first place. The fact, that they aren't, only further shows, he needs to go. As it is, a competent coach will take a year or two, to get Herm's mess straightened out.

Dane, I'm just not seeing the talent, three years into this. Herm has only won, 33% of the games he's coached here, and that's after THREE SEASONS!!! That won't cut it, in the NFL. You should demand more out of your team. Rebuild or not. The way I see it, is Herm has had THREE years, because I'm sure he made $9 mil during that time-that's DISGRACEFUL for the production we've seen out of his teams.

[chiefzilla1501]

The difference is, Vermeil was given a buttload of free agents. In his span, Peterson invested big bucks on Holliday, Bell, Knight, Barber, McCleon, Carlos Hall, Surtain, in addition to having very high picks like DJ, Sims, and Siavii to work with.

Not only did Herm have to inherit these used/crap parts, he also was not given much money to spend and was given middle-of-the-road draft picks to fix it. Drafting from 15-20 in every round is not the ideal way to fix a clunker.

I'm with Dane on this one. The Chiefs have only used two first round picks on the defense. I agree that Hali was a huge reach. But given that these were the only marquee picks we've had to deal with, it's pretty hard to build a team exclusively through the draft when you don't have many picks to work with.

It's still pretty damning, considering Herm is a Defensive Guy and Vermeil was a Special Teams guru. Again, I like the idea of building through the draft, unfortunately, Herm has little to show for it on defense, when it comes to the topic.
THREE YEARS years into this, his team is just as bad, if not worse, than Vermeil's defense. We are paying Herm $3 MILLION PER YEAR. Where's the improvement? The youth argument only goes so far, when you can point to only TWO potential PBers that Herm has added on defense. That's supposed to be his, expertise.
The fact, that he's a FORMER SCOUT, also means he's REALLY underperforming, given, his picks, should be the cream of the crop, if he was really a profound scout in the first place. The fact, that they aren't, only further shows, he needs to go. As it is, a competent coach will take a year or two, to get Herm's mess straightened out.

Dane, I'm just not seeing the talent, three years into this. Herm has only won, 33% of the games he's coached here, and that's after THREE SEASONS!!! That won't cut it, in the NFL. You should demand more out of your team. Rebuild or not. The way I see it, is Herm has had THREE years, because I'm sure he made $9 mil during that time-that's DISGRACEFUL for the production we've seen out of his teams.

[BigChiefFan]

Oh, so now, the "he didn't get to utilize Free Agency" bullcrap gets to be used an excuse, does it? Sure, too bad all that cap room says, OTHERWISE.

We both know that's not accurate, in the least. Hermie, CHOSE this route. This is, HIS team. He has had THREE YEARS AND $9MIL to put his stamp on this team, and guess what? He has failed miserably.


Let me guess, most owners would be happy about spending $9 mil for a 33% winning record. Sure thing.

[royr17]

I dont see Damon Huard, Devard Darling, Jeff Webb, Adrian Jones, Ron Edwards, Alfonso Boone, Pat Thomas, Donnie Edwards, Patrick Surtain, Ricardo Colclough, David Macklin, Jon McGraw, and Oliver Celestin returning for the chiefs next year.

[Thig Lyfe]

Hopefully this means we can make a push to sign LeBron James.

Hehehe

Actually, I wouldn't mind extending an offer to him to play wide receiver. He was All-State in high school, and he's such a physical freak that he'd be able to put up big numbers despite the rust.

SIGN LEBRON, CARL!!!

[royr17]

Also forgot to mention I dont see Rocky Boiman and Jason Babin returning for KC next year also.

[DaneMcCloud]

It's still pretty damning, considering Herm is a Defensive Guy and Vermeil was a Special Teams guru. Again, I like the idea of building through the draft, unfortunately, Herm has little to show for it on defense, when it comes to the topic.

Until this season: Flowers, Carr, Leggett, Dorsey, an improving Tank Tyler and Turk McBride and you have to admit, Jarrad Page was a steal in the 7th.

The bottom line is that this defense needs a game-changer and they don't have one. Jared Allen was a great defensive end but he wasn't a game changer.

But overall, I agree. I wish they were further along.

THREE YEARS years into this, his team is just as bad, if not worse, than Vermeil's defense. We are paying Herm $3 MILLION PER YEAR. Where's the improvement? The youth argument only goes so far, when you can point to only TWO potential PBers that Herm has added on defense. That's supposed to be his, expertise.

Vermeil was paid $5 million per year. I certainly don't think he earned that with records of 6-10, 8-8 and 7-9. Hell, 10-6 shouldn't get you $4 million a year.

But in all honesty, I don't care how much a coach is paid. I just want the team to improve more years than not.


The fact, that he's a FORMER SCOUT, also means he's REALLY underperforming, given, his picks, should be the cream of the crop, if he was really a profound scout in the first place. The fact, that they aren't, only further shows, he needs to go. As it is, a competent coach will take a year or two, to get Herm's mess straightened out.

It was documented in the KC Star that until this year, Herm and Kuharich did not have control of the personnel. Sure, they had input but Carl Peterson controlled the decisions. Which is why they "went with the old guys" in 2007 and why we saw CP pushing Huard.

Herm finally got personnel control and 2008 looks to be an amazing class. You can also add Mike Cox and Maurice Leggett to an already stellar draft class.

D Herm has only won, 33% of the games he's coached here, and that's after THREE SEASONS!!! That won't cut it, in the NFL. You should demand more out of your team. Rebuild or not. The way I see it, is Herm has had THREE years, because I'm sure he made $9 mil during that time-that's DISGRACEFUL for the production we've seen out of his teams.

Herm was handcuffed first with Vermeil's offensive staff and philosophy (minus Willie Roaf and Trent Green), then handcuffed with Peterson's decision to continue in the vein. It definitely hurt the team and a total rebuild was absolutely necessary.

I'll say it again: The Chiefs under Peterson have absolutely and unequivocally sucked in the draft. As bad as Jim Schaaf and Jack Steadman were at choosing coaches, it's absolutely undeniable that they did a fantastic job at stocking the roster. Cherry, Burress, Ross, Lewis, Maas, Lowery, DeBerg, Okoye, Paige, Carson, Hayes, Neil Smith, Hackett, Alt and on and on.

Herm certainly hasn't had that advantage in Kansas City due to Carl Peterson.

[kysirsoze]

Pollard's definitely improved in my view. He just has to learn to settle for just getting a ball carrier on the ground sometimes. Constantly trying to deliver the killshot costs us additional yardage and TD's. I like that they try to instill fear into opposing players though.

Not to mention a couple of those flags were total BS. The NFL is so scared of hard-hitting it's embarrassing. I remember one a few games back where they didn't blow the whistle, the ball carrier got up to run and Pollard hit him. They then blew the whistle and threw the flag. I think Pollard is an asset. I'm not saying he's gonna be the next Troy Polamalu or Bob Sanders. I'm just saying if, as most people here have been saying, if we got a reasonable pass rush, having a guy who just runs around headhunting can go a long way towards instilling some fear in offenses.

[Chiefaholic]

My .02 cents...

EVERYBODY here wanted a total rebuild of the cluster**** Vermeil left behind in KC. We had the oldest team in the NFL that blew chunks AND the team was in cap hell. Despite the fact that I think Herm is a blubbering idiot as a head coach, he IS taking this team in the right direction. People cry about the win percentage.... WTF people? What the hell did you think would happen when Herm (the anti-Marty) put that many rookies on the field at once? They're learning on the fly, making mistakes, and hopefully learning from them. Herm threw this season away by doing just what EVERYBODY here wanted to do. He's building a team the way a serious playoff caliber NFL team is supposed to be. He traded or released several overpaid and aging vets, and gradually replacing them with young talent. I didn't expect him to rebuild that crap in 2-3 drafts w/o the aid of serious free agent spending.

Once again, Herm is a moron as a head coach, but I believe he's a respectable scout and incredible as a secondary coach. This team needs a new face as a head coach, but I still want to use the draft as our primary source of building a team that has potential to be great for years to come.

[Delano]

Also forgot to mention I dont see Rocky Boiman and Jason Babin returning for KC next year also.

I can see Boiman returning if Gunther is still DC. Babin's future depends on what the front office does with the DE position, obviously. I believe he will gett a shot in training camp and the preseason.

[chiefsngop]

Agreed. Gunther's approach is outdated. It was amazing in the 90's but it hasn't worked whatsoever this last go around. It may be that he just doesn't fit with Herm's philosophy but either way if Herm's sticking around then we need someone who's on the same page with him and can utilize the obvious young talent that is all over that defense.

The Tampa 2 is outdated.

We could bring in a guy who understands the Tampa 2 inside and out, and it still wouldn't work.

It only has a small chance of success, if you have a tremendous front 4 with extreme pass rush ability. (checked our sack totals lately?)

Hell, Tampa doesn't even use the Tampa 2 anymore.

[Mecca]

Well, just based off that list:

Philly
Washington
Baltimore
Cincinatti
San Diego
Denver
Oakland
??? (not sure who the other rotational game would be - maybe the last place AFC south team?)

Yea that's right it'll be either Houston or Jacksonville....next years schedule is not favorable.

[Reerun_KC]

Yea that's right it'll be either Houston or Jacksonville....next years schedule is not favorable.

Hopefully that schedule will keep Herm from winning enough games to get an extension....

[kcchiefsus]

I dont see Damon Huard, Devard Darling, Jeff Webb, Adrian Jones, Ron Edwards, Alfonso Boone, Pat Thomas, Donnie Edwards, Patrick Surtain, Ricardo Colclough, David Macklin, Jon McGraw, and Oliver Celestin returning for the chiefs next year.

What's wrong with Ron Edwards? He's been a solid contributor.

[Chiefnj2]

What's wrong with Ron Edwards? He's been a solid contributor.

A solid contributor to one of the worst defenses in the history of the league.

[Zouk]

Hell, Tampa doesn't even use the Tampa 2 anymore.

Actually Jaws telestrated Tampa playing Tampa 2 coverage last night.

I just watch the games on TV so I can't really tell all the coverages, but I have not seen the Chiefs play a lot of Tampa 2 this year.

[Reerun_KC]

Actually Jaws telestrated Tampa playing Tampa 2 coverage last night.

I just watch the games on TV so I can't really tell all the coverages, but I have not seen the Chiefs play a lot of Tampa 2 this year.

Monte Kiflin is a lucky SOB to have learned the Tampa 2 from such a Defensive Guru and Draft Expert... Herm should be proud of Monte's accomplishments.

[EyePod]

The best defensive player we've had for the past five years, was a VERMEIL Pick-kind of blows your theory out of the water, huh?

From the 4th round. That never happens. Ever. So we got one needle in a haystack. Your example is called the exception. It isn't proof that the theory is wrong.

[Brock]

If Shields go I may cry... but he is freaking 37....

:spock:

[Rausch]

:spock:

Let it go.

That world is clearly a better one than ours...

[EyePod]

:spock:

What about Dorsey and Albert? Are we already giving up on Charles, Cottam, Morgan, and Franklin? Bowe? Tyler?

Franklin, YES. What a cocktease.

[Rausch]

Actually Jaws telestrated Tampa playing Tampa 2 coverage last night.

I just watch the games on TV so I can't really tell all the coverages, but I have not seen the Chiefs play a lot of Tampa 2 this year.

They don't.

For the most part they haven't.

[EyePod]

Personally, I'm ok with Page/Pollard/Morgan/Flowers/Carr/Leggett...I think they can be a great secondary if we ever had a pass rush...

Seriously, you can't compete on defense when you have zero pass rush...

Yes. The Cover 2 depends on a reliable pass rush. We can't do that, so the entire defense falls apart. Why we haven't changed that around a little (a la the offense) and played to our players strong points (which is OBVIOUSLY not a pass rush) is ridiculous. We continue to rush 4 and see no results. You have to change it a little. And Nick Athan made a really good point (look at the flying pig!), Carr should play tighter to his receivers like Flowers is allowed. I don't think he makes the pick that Legett got because he is always starting so deep.

[EyePod]

Oh, so now, the "he didn't get to utilize Free Agency" bullcrap gets to be used an excuse, does it? Sure, too bad all that cap room says, OTHERWISE.

We both know that's not accurate, in the least. Hermie, CHOSE this route. This is, HIS team. He has had THREE YEARS AND $9MIL to put his stamp on this team, and guess what? He has failed miserably.

Let me guess, most owners would be happy about spending $9 mil for a 33% winning record. Sure thing.

Herm isn't in charge of player personnel, is he? Wouldn't this fall on Carl Peterson?

[Delano]

There, I fixed my terrible spelling. I'm just saying, that if he retires, we're ****ed at the LG position. And I'm sure that Shields is a huge part of Albert's success.

I think you misspelled Waters in your post.

[EyePod]

I think you misspelled Waters in your post.

hahaha.. wow, I wasn't thinking there. Look, it's finals week and I'm fried. Thank you for correcting my complete stupidness... WOW

[Delano]

hahaha.. wow, I wasn't thinking there. Look, it's finals week and I'm fried. Thank you for correcting my complete stupidness... WOW

Yeah. I'm working on a Physics final now and I still got that. Sorry.. good luck man.

[EyePod]

Yeah. I'm working on a Physics final now and I still got that. Sorry.. good luck man.

Yeah, you too. Sometimes I wish I just did IT instead of Chemical Engineering....