1-6 record in games within 7 points......

[notorious]

WTF.

Pittsburgh is the master at winning these close games, while we are the master of losing them.

The worst part is that it usually comes down to ONE play. A dropped pass for first down (Bowe/Bradley), a non-conversion of a 3rd and 1, etc. This really is a game of inches, and those inches are adding up to miles.

I despise Herm like almost everyone else, but our players have screwed up in crucial parts of these close games.


What does it take for our players to make that one play needed to close out the game?

[kstater]

WTF.

Pittsburgh is the master at winning these close games, while we are the master of losing them.

The worst part is that it usually comes down to ONE play. A dropped pass for first down (Bowe/Bradley), a non-conversion of a 3rd and 1, etc. This really is a game of inches, and those inches are adding up to miles.

I despise Herm like almost everyone else, but our players have screwed up in crucial parts of these close games.


What does it take for our players to make that one play needed to close the game?


A new coach. There's a reason Herm led teams lose close games.

[FringeNC]

It's a moral victory for Herm if the game is a coin flip in the 4th quarter. That's his goal. He figures if he can do that for most games, then one day he'll get on a lucky streak and win the Super Bowl.

[Mecca]

That is why Ben Roethlisberger is a franchise QB, he makes the plays at the end of games that win.

[Baby Lee]

A new coach. There's a reason Herm led teams lose close games.

Which is it, he's the reason they're in close games, or he's the reason they lose close games.

Pittsburgh is in a ton of close games too, and are looking pretty good.

[Baby Lee]

That is why Ben Roethlisberger is a franchise QB, he makes the plays at the end of games that win.

That INT he had to seal the win when the O only put up 13 all game was amazing.

[the Talking Can]

pittsburgh was smart enough to draft a franchise RT instead of Rothlisburger.....oh wait

[OnTheWarpath15]

That INT he had to seal the win was amazing.

ROFL

[Mecca]

That INT he had to seal the win was amazing.

Yea that 92 yard TD drive he ran with 6 minutes left that won the game meant nothing.

I'm sure that was all running game though.

[Coach]

That is why Ben Roethlisberger is a franchise QB, he makes the plays at the end of games that win.

And that's why Pittsburgh has a defense that they can make the plays at the end of the games that win.

Come on man. 12 points in 35 seconds. That's inexcuseable.

[the Talking Can]

That INT he had to seal the win was amazing.

?

he threw a td

the rookie threw a hail mary int

[kstater]

Which is it, he's the reason they're in close games, or he's the reason they lose close games.

Pittsburgh is in a ton of close games too, and are looking pretty good.

It's both. I can't recall, but I can't think of a game where a Herm led team has absolutley blown a team out of the water. There probably has been a couple, but not many.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

the worst part is, they are winning at halftime just about every week, and usually into the 4th quarter, and still keep coming up with ways to lose.

[OnTheWarpath15]

And that's why Pittsburgh has a defense that they can make the plays at the end of the games that win.

Come on man. 12 points in 35 seconds. That's inexcuseable.

It's common sense, unless it destroys your argument.

[Bowser]

It's impressive how Herm's teams find new and improved ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Mecca]

And that's why Pittsburgh has a defense that they can make the plays at the end of the games that win.

Come on man. 12 points in 35 seconds. That's inexcuseable.

Their defense is very good but Roethlisberger led his team that had scored 6 points all game on one of the best D's in the league on the road on a game winning drive with time running out in the 4th quarter, that is what franchise players do.

[kstater]

It's impressive how Herm's teams find new and improved ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Not necessarily impressive because it's expected, but it's pretty comical.

[aturnis]

Oh fuck. It's not entirely Herm's fault we lose close games. Although, some I argue he loses on purpose.

Our team is YOUNG, VERY young. We get a few more players, and with all the experience this team got this year. We win a lot of those games next year. I for one, am excited by this team.

[Mecca]

It's common sense, unless it destroys your argument.

Yea their defense led that drive right?

I'm sorry this argument is retarded give Ben 0 credit for the game winning drive, go ahead, it's fuckin retarded but go ahead.

[Baby Lee]

Yea that 92 yard TD drive he ran with 6 minutes left that won the game meant nothing.

I'm sure that was all running game though.

Luckily he play D well enough that that, along with the 2 FGs he managed all the rest of the game, was enough.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

WTF.

Pittsburgh is the master at winning these close games, while we are the master of losing them.

The worst part is that it usually comes down to ONE play. A dropped pass for first down (Bowe/Bradley), a non-conversion of a 3rd and 1, etc. This really is a game of inches, and those inches are adding up to miles.

I despise Herm like almost everyone else, but our players have screwed up in crucial parts of these close games.


What does it take for our players to make that one play needed to close out the game?

It's called the growing pains of rebuilding. Not just the team but the psychy. Young teams (with bad coaches) find ways to lose. More experienced teams find ways to win.

Football fans are so stupid.

[notorious]

A new coach. There's a reason Herm led teams lose close games.

I agree 100% on a new coach and GM.

Winning close games is not about talk, it is about getting a coach that puts complete confidence in his players, and the players making the play.

[Bowser]

Not necessarily impressive because it's expected, but it's pretty comical.

I was certainly getting a good laugh of it.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Their defense is very good but Roethlisberger led his team that had scored 6 points all game on one of the best D's in the league on the road on a game winning drive with time running out in the 4th quarter, that is what franchise players do.

And would he have gotten that opportunity if he didn't have the luxury of having the NUMBER ONE rated defense working for him?

That defense is the only reason they were even IN a position to win.

[Mecca]

That's how Pittsburgh wins, they stay within 1 score and then Roethlisberger leads the drive in the 4th quarter and they win...same thing with the Cowboys last week.

Without Roethlisberger they'd just lose alot of close games.

[Baby Lee]

It's both. I can't recall, but I can't think of a game where a Herm led team has absolutley blown a team out of the water. There probably has been a couple, but not many.

He did have 40 or 50 to zip in the playoffs once. But the playoffs don't count.

[kstater]

I was certainly getting a good laugh of it.

Had my dog running to her cage because I was laughing so hard.

[Mecca]

And would he have gotten that opportunity if he didn't have the luxury of having the NUMBER ONE rated defense working for him?

That defense is the only reason they were even IN a position to win.

Cool take Ben off their team and the #1 rated D would be below 500 because they'd be averaging about 6 points a game.

[Coach]

Their defense is very good but Roethlisberger led his team that had scored 6 points all game on one of the best D's in the league on the road on a game winning drive with time running out in the 4th quarter, that is what franchise players do.

And Thigpen lead his team to a 17-3 lead in the halftime. Of course, you are forgetting about the fact that the Chiefs do make adjustments in the halftime. I was wrong. They do make adjustments in the halftime.

They play fucking scared chickenshit football in the 2nd half. Someone in here said that in the 2nd half, the Chiefs play conservative, bullshit, run-to-the-weakest-part-of-the-line, let's not try to turn the ball over football and end up giving the ball back to the other team over and over.

Guess who's responsible for that?

[Mecca]

It doesn't help that Thigpen is very limited in what he can do...

[Mr. Arrowhead]

also look at pittsburg defense vs ours

[dirk digler]

Their defense is very good but Roethlisberger led his team that had scored 6 points all game on one of the best D's in the league on the road on a game winning drive with time running out in the 4th quarter, that is what franchise players do.

I agree.

[Coach]

It doesn't help that Thigpen is very limited in what he can do...

Blah blah blah.

Get over it. We're not getting Matt Stafford.

[Mecca]

Obviously defense is important, this year they have relied on Roethlisberger to be their offense, their line is shit at pass blocking, they don't have shit at RB.

Their defense keeps them in games and Roethlisberger makes plays at the end to win them. Without either they'd have a shitty record.

It's defense plus big time QB and that wins them games.

[Mecca]

Blah blah blah.

Get over it. We're not getting Matt Stafford.

Great I'm just telling you the truth that he's limited.

[milkman]

It doesn't help that Thigpen is very limited in what he can do...

I get what you are saying, but you are summarily dismissing the possibility that Thigpen has the ability to improve.

The chances are slim, as we know that only one spread QB has transitioned to the NFL successfully.

However, I see things from Thigpen that show that he has improved in certain areas.

You refuse to acknowledge any possibility that it can happen.

[notorious]

I agree with you Mecca.

Mike Tomlin puts his confidence in Ben even if Ben has a horrible game. When you put the game in your QB's hands with complete confidence it helps your chances of winning tremendously.

Of course, you have to have a QB worthy of putting complete confidence in.........

[OnTheWarpath15]

Cool take Ben off their team and the #1 rated D would be below 500 because they'd be averaging about 6 points a game.

Dear God.

Yeah, I'm sure there's no other QB in the league that could lead that team to the whopping 22 points a game they are averaging.

[CoMoChief]

Oh yeah btw, Sutain looked like the slowest CB ever when "trying" to return that INT for a TD

[Coach]

I get what you are saying, but you are summarily dismissing the possibility that Thigpen has the ability to improve.

The chances are slim, as we know that only one spread QB has transitioned to the NFL successfully.

However, I see things from Thigpen that show that he has improved in certain areas.

You refuse to acknowledge any possibility that it can happen.

That's been his problem lately. But I will say that Ben Roethlisberger is not the reason the Steelers are a 10-3 football team.

[Mecca]

I'm not sure how many QB's would still be alive, take a few minutes to realize how many hits and sacks he takes a game and still gets up and even avoids them at times to make plays...

Cool dismiss Roethlisberger he's their franchise player, that's why they are a legit contender and Tennessee is just a contender for a playoff loss.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That's how Pittsburgh wins, they stay within 1 score and then Roethlisberger leads the drive in the 4th quarter and they win...same thing with the Cowboys last week.

Without Roethlisberger they'd just lose alot of close games.

Uh, and HOW do they keep those games close?

Without a great defense, they'd be losing games by 10+ points every week...

[Coach]

I agree with you Mecca.

Mike Tomlin puts his confidence in Ben even if Ben has a horrible game. When you put the game in your QB's hands with complete confidence it helps your chances of winning tremendously.

Of course, you have to have a QB worthy of putting complete confidence in.........

Well, I have a hell alot of confidence on Thigpen over Brokie Croyle and Damon "Quitter" Huard. That's saying alot.

[Mecca]

That's been his problem lately. But I will say that Ben Roethlisberger is not the reason the Steelers are a 10-3 football team.

He's the reason they're 10-3 and not say 7-6, this isn't Tennessee here he doesn't hand off 40 times.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That's been his problem lately. But I will say that Ben Roethlisberger is not the reason the Steelers are a 10-3 football team.

What?

My God, without him they'd be 4-10.

:rolleyes:

[Coach]

I'm not sure how many QB's would still be alive, take a few minutes to realize how many hits and sacks he takes a game and still gets up and even avoids them at times to make plays...

Cool dismiss Roethlisberger he's their franchise player, that's why they are a legit contender and Tennessee is just a contender for a playoff loss.

Steeler fans saying that Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. What do you have to say about the Steeler fans?

[Mecca]

Uh, and HOW do they keep those games close?

Without a great defense, they'd be losing games by 10+ points every week...

Ok Ben Roethlisberger sucks, Rivers sucks. there are no good QB's in the league outside of 3 guys.

[milkman]

That's been his problem lately. But I will say that Ben Roethlisberger is not the reason the Steelers are a 10-3 football team.

He is a big reason.

He's been taking a piss pounding all season, yet he still gets up and makes clutch plays.

[Mecca]

Steeler fans saying that Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. What do you have to say about the Steeler fans?

That they're stupid? Most people should realize by now the average NFL fan is not bright.

[Mecca]

He is a big reason.

He's been taking a piss pounding all season, yet he still gets up and makes clutch plays.

People acting like Roethlisberger is Kerry Collins in this thread...it's pretty amusing.

[dirk digler]

Dear God.

Yeah, I'm sure there's no other QB in the league that could lead that team to the whopping 22 points a game they are averaging.

that is silly. Big Ben is a franchise elite QB.

The combination of their great D and franchise QB is what makes them successful. Without either one they would be 8-8.

[doomy3]

I'm not sure how many QB's would still be alive, take a few minutes to realize how many hits and sacks he takes a game and still gets up and even avoids them at times to make plays...

Cool dismiss Roethlisberger he's their franchise player, that's why they are a legit contender and Tennessee is just a contender for a playoff loss.

Are you kidding me? Tennessee is only a contender for a playoff loss because they don't have Roethlisberger? Are you high?

[notorious]

Well, I have a hell alot of confidence on Thigpen over Brokie Croyle and Damon "Quitter" Huard. That's saying alot.

Without a doubt Thigpen is a huge boost over the other two.

This team is in such disarray that we can't point our finger at just one thing to fix it.

[OnTheWarpath15]

He's the reason they're 10-3 and not say 7-6, this isn't Tennessee here he doesn't hand off 40 times.

Jesus tapdancing Christ.

If you honestly think that there aren't 15+ other QB's in this league that could have a 10-3 record, with that defense, then I've vastly overrated your knowledge of football.

Now, without that DEFENSE, they definitely are going to be a .500 team at best.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Dear God.

Yeah, I'm sure there's no other QB in the league that could lead that team to the whopping 22 points a game they are averaging.

I bashed Ben for a long time, but you have to give the guy his props.

He's one of the five best QBs in the game. No, he's not a fantasy God, like Aaron Rodgers.

He takes a piss pounding behind a shit line with piss poor backs and gets up every time. He's led his team to victory in the fourth quarter two straight weeks despite having lackluster games up until then. That takes confidence and guts in spades, and he has it.

[Baby Lee]

Ok Ben Roethlisberger sucks, Rivers sucks. there are no good QB's in the league outside of 3 guys.

It's not a 'he sucks/he's a god' thing, it's, as it always has been, an 'it's a team game' thing.

Roeth has been clutch, but he hasn't been particularly productive overall. But he's a good fit with a good D. That said, he's not the only thing that would fit well with a good D [decent qb with more weapons, qb who doesn't make mistakes with a great RB, etc., etc.]

[Mecca]

Are you kidding me? Tennessee is only a contender for a playoff loss because they don't have Roethlisberger? Are you high?

They're just a contender for a playoff loss because of what happened today...defend the run and dare their shitty QB and even worse WR's to beat you...

Their defense is top notch but they don't have the QB to make plays, 90s Chiefs revisited.

[doomy3]

People acting like Roethlisberger is Kerry Collins in this thread...it's pretty amusing.

Who said that?

[Coach]

He's the reason they're 10-3 and not say 7-6, this isn't Tennessee here he doesn't hand off 40 times.

Bullshit, and you can quote me on this.

Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. They are 10-3 because they have a very strong defense. Hell, the Steelers lead almost in every fucking major category on defense!

Oh FWIW, if you're saying Big Ben is the reason why the Steelers are 10-3, then explain to me why Big Ben has 14 TD's and 12 INT's, yet Tyler Thigpen has 15 TD's and 9 INT's?

[Mecca]

Jesus tapdancing Christ.

If you honestly think that there aren't 15+ other QB's in this league that could have a 10-3 record, with that defense, then I've vastly overrated your knowledge of football.

Now, without that DEFENSE, they definitely are going to be a .500 team at best.

Yep any QB could take a beating behind their line and lead game winning drives.

I'm sure Jay Cutler who's been sacked about 8 times all year would perform just the same if he was put in Roethlisberger position of being sacked about 40 times.

[Mecca]

Bullshit, and you can quote me on this.

Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. They are 10-3 because they have a very strong defense. Hell, the Steelers lead almost in every fucking major category on defense!

Oh FWIW, if you're saying Big Ben is the reason why the Steelers are 10-3, then explain to me why Big Ben has 14 TD's and 12 INT's, yet Tyler Thigpen has 15 TD's and 9 INT's?

This is why fantasy football has ruined peoples perception of whats good and what's not.


Stats are not the end all be all of a player, if they were then you'd think Troy Aikman was ass.

[Baby Lee]

Bullshit, and you can quote me on this.

Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. They are 10-3 because they have a very strong defense. Hell, the Steelers lead almost in every ****ing major category on defense!

Oh FWIW, if you're saying Big Ben is the reason why the Steelers are 10-3, then explain to me why Big Ben has 14 TD's and 12 INT's, yet Tyler Thigpen has 15 TD's and 9 INT's?

Because he knew when his TD magic was needed and saved himself for that nexus in time.

[Coach]

He is a big reason.

He's been taking a piss pounding all season, yet he still gets up and makes clutch plays.

Sure, and that's fine, but he also holds on to the ball very long, which is one of the reasons why he's getting piss pounded, other than having a shitty o-line.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Bullshit, and you can quote me on this.

Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. They are 10-3 because they have a very strong defense. Hell, the Steelers lead almost in every fucking major category on defense!

Oh FWIW, if you're saying Big Ben is the reason why the Steelers are 10-3, then explain to me why Big Ben has 14 TD's and 12 INT's, yet Tyler Thigpen has 15 TD's and 9 INT's?

Quarterback worth is not analogous to fantasy football value.

[the Talking Can]

Bullshit, and you can quote me on this.

Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. They are 10-3 because they have a very strong defense. Hell, the Steelers lead almost in every ****ing major category on defense!

Oh FWIW, if you're saying Big Ben is the reason why the Steelers are 10-3, then explain to me why Big Ben has 14 TD's and 12 INT's, yet Tyler Thigpen has 15 TD's and 9 INT's?

good grief people

use your damn eyes

[FringeNC]

Didn't Herm have a good record in 2006 in close games? Let's face it, close games come down to luck. My problem with Herm is not his record in close games, but letting what should be comfortable wins become coin flips because of a failure to go for the jugular.

[Mecca]

Once again Chiefsplanet devalues the most important position on the field by a huge degree...amusing yet not surprising.

[doomy3]

They're just a contender for a playoff loss because of what happened today...defend the run and dare their shitty QB and even worse WR's to beat you...

Their defense is top notch but they don't have the QB to make plays, 90s Chiefs revisited.

That's ridiculous. Just because they don't play a brand of football you enjoy watching doesn't take away from the team they have. They have 2 losses, so yes, of course they could lose in the playoffs. But to act like the Steelers are heads and shoulders better because they have Ben, or that they will walk through the playoffs because of him, is as stupid as most of your takes. Last I checked, the Steelers had 3 losses, so I guess they are also a candidate to disappoint in the playoffs.

[dirk digler]

Bullshit, and you can quote me on this.

Ben is not the reason why the Steelers are 10-3. They are 10-3 because they have a very strong defense. Hell, the Steelers lead almost in every ****ing major category on defense!

Oh FWIW, if you're saying Big Ben is the reason why the Steelers are 10-3, then explain to me why Big Ben has 14 TD's and 12 INT's, yet Tyler Thigpen has 15 TD's and 9 INT's?

You don't think Big Ben is an elite QB? Cmon now...

[Mecca]

Quarterback worth is not analogous to fantasy football value.

Fantasy football has ruined some people, now stats are the end all be all of everything.

[Coach]

FWIW, Big Ben/Steelers has the benefit of having a solid coaching staff. The Chiefs don't have the luxury under Herman Edwards and Co.

That makes a whole wide world of difference there.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Because he knew when his TD magic was needed and saved himself for that nexus in time.

Why is it that guys like Elway, Favre, Montana, Manning, and Brady can have pedestrian, even awful games, yet when their team needs them to lead them down the field on the last possession they do it, over and over again?

Are they just lucky?

[Mecca]

That's ridiculous. Just because they don't play a brand of football you enjoy watching doesn't take away from the team they have. They have 2 losses, so yes, of course they could lose in the playoffs. But to act like the Steelers are heads and shoulders better because they have Ben, or that they will walk through the playoffs because of him, is as stupid as most of your takes. Last I checked, the Steelers had 3 losses, so I guess they are also a candidate to disappoint in the playoffs.

Um the Steelers don't exactly play a wide open style of fun ball either but they are much more suited to win in the playoffs than Tennessee is.

And if you don't think a QB is a huge deal in the playoffs, revisit the Chiefs playoff history.

[the Talking Can]

we haven't won an important game in 15 years, and people still don't understand the value of a QB around here....

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That's ridiculous. Just because they don't play a brand of football you enjoy watching doesn't take away from the team they have. They have 2 losses, so yes, of course they could lose in the playoffs. But to act like the Steelers are heads and shoulders better because they have Ben, or that they will walk through the playoffs because of him, is as stupid as most of your takes. Last I checked, the Steelers had 3 losses, so I guess they are also a candidate to disappoint in the playoffs.

The Titans will win one playoff game, max. Quarterback is the most important position, and they don't have it.

[FringeNC]

You don't think Big Ben is an elite QB? Cmon now...

Not saying BR isn't a good QB, but if the Steelers had a better offense, they wouldn't be in very many close games, because their D is awesome.

[Mecca]

Why is it that guys like Elway, Favre, Montana, Manning, and Brady can have pedestrian, even awful games, yet when their team needs them to lead them down the field on the last possession they do it, over and over again?

Are they just lucky?

Screw that man, he has shitty stats. People rip on Rivers..look what he did today, his team was down right brutal yet he took over the last 5 minutes.

[Baby Lee]

Fantasy football has ruined some people, now stats are the end all be all of everything.

Yeah, they make people think that the QB is the one true key to success.

Pretty effed up to accuse the people who actually value the stuff that doesn't get fantasy football attention with being ruined by FF.

[the Talking Can]

Why is it that guys like Elway, Favre, Montana, Manning, and Brady can have pedestrian, even awful games, yet when their team needs them to lead them down the field on the last possession they do it, over and over again?

Are they just lucky?

they all drafted right tackles with a top 5 pick?

[Mecca]

we haven't won an important game in 15 years, and people still don't understand the value of a QB around here....

You can't appreciate or understand something you've never had, we had a defense once so people point to that cause they remember.

[Coach]

You don't think Big Ben is an elite QB? Cmon now...

His numbers don't reflect that. I'm sorry, I'm sure he's a great QB, but a elite QB? No. He's not (all that) the reason that the Steelers are 10-3. Ben's numbers has decreased from last year to this year. That's quite a drop IMHO.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I bashed Ben for a long time, but you have to give the guy his props.

He's one of the five best QBs in the game. No, he's not a fantasy God, like Aaron Rodgers.

He takes a piss pounding behind a shit line with piss poor backs and gets up every time. He's led his team to victory in the fourth quarter two straight weeks despite having lackluster games up until then. That takes confidence and guts in spades, and he has it.

And if he didn't have the #1 rated defense across the board, no one would be sucking him off, because the Steelers would be .500 at best.

I'm not saying he sucks, that's Mecca's butthurt coming out.

But to say that without him, they'd be under .500?

Retarded.

There are many QB's that could have this same team in the same position, or better.

I'll give him this: He's a winner.

But how hard is it to be a winner in this league when you only need 15 points per game?

[doomy3]

Screw that man, he has shitty stats. People rip on Rivers..look what he did today, his team was down right brutal yet he took over the last 5 minutes.


The argument could be made that if he had done shit for the first 3 quarters, they should have run away with that game anyway. They are 1000000x more talented than we are.

[dirk digler]

Not saying BR isn't a good QB, but if the Steelers had a better offense, they wouldn't be in very many close games, because their D is awesome.

I think that has less to do with Ben and more to do with no real RB's and their O-Line isn't very good this year

[Mecca]

His numbers don't reflect that. I'm sorry, I'm sure he's a great QB, but a elite QB? No. He's not (all that) the reason that the Steelers are 10-3. Ben's numbers has decreased from last year to this year. That's quite a drop IMHO.

Stats are not the end all be all of judging a player, on just numbers Troy Aikman was a very blah QB. If fantasy football had been prevalent people would have discussed how he sucked and never had big years.

[Coach]

Screw that man, he has shitty stats. People rip on Rivers..look what he did today, his team was down right brutal yet he took over the last 5 minutes.

Yeah, he benefited alot from Cunther Cunningham's defense, who can't even fucking cover my grandma with a walker.

[the Talking Can]

Yeah, they make people think that the QB is the one true key to success.

Pretty effed up to accuse the people who actually value the stuff that doesn't get fantasy football attention with being ruined by FF.

QB is the one true key to success

why is that not fucking obvious to kansas city fans?

[Mecca]

QB is the one true key to success

why is that not fucking obvious to kansas city fans?

The average NFL fan is dumb....there's really no other way to put it. Think about alot of the football fans you come in contact with and how stupid you generally think they are.

[Baby Lee]

Why is it that guys like Elway, Favre, Montana, Manning, and Brady can have pedestrian, even awful games, yet when their team needs them to lead them down the field on the last possession they do it, over and over again?

Are they just lucky?

Again, bright side of lifing along.

Elway and Brady, the two best QBs in the history of the game, yes.

The have had long histories of being embarassed or stymied, by superior opposition, or let down by other units of the team.
Elway helmed some of the most embarassing SB appearances ever, not his fault, he couldn't do it all himself [which is my point].
Favre has some of the most godawful playoff performances ever, including 6 INTs in a game against the Rams.
Manning, again, was the Schottenheimer of QBs until he got a defense.

[dirk digler]

His numbers don't reflect that. I'm sorry, I'm sure he's a great QB, but a elite QB? No. He's not (all that) the reason that the Steelers are 10-3. Ben's numbers has decreased from last year to this year. That's quite a drop IMHO.

Isn't he one of about 6 active QB's to win a SB?

He is a great and I would consider him an elite QB because he doesn't have the best stats but he makes plays at the end of the game

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yep any QB could take a beating behind their line and lead game winning drives.

I'm sure Jay Cutler who's been sacked about 8 times all year would perform just the same if he was put in Roethlisberger position of being sacked about 40 times.

Do you actually WATCH Pittsburgh play?

He holds the ball to goddamn long.

The beating he's taken is just as much his fault as it is the OL's.

[Coach]

QB is the one true key to success

why is that not fucking obvious to kansas city fans?

Can't build success if you don't have a foundation to begin with anyways.

[Coach]

Do you actually WATCH Pittsburgh play?

He holds the ball to goddamn long.

The beating he's taken is just as much his fault as it is the OL's.

I said that 2 pages ago that he holds on the ball too long. Heh. :D

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yeah, they make people think that the QB is the one true key to success.

Pretty effed up to accuse the people who actually value the stuff that doesn't get fantasy football attention with being ruined by FF.

So you weren't bitching about the stats and points that he had put up to that point in the game when you were bitching about it?

Thanks for the Newspeak.

[the Talking Can]

Can't build success if you don't have a foundation to begin with anyways.

is that a slogan from a coffe cup?

[Baby Lee]

The average NFL fan is dumb....there's really no other way to put it. Think about alot of the football fans you come in contact with and how stupid you generally think they are.

GFY, srsly.

[Coach]

good grief people

use your damn eyes

Yeah, I'm using my damn eyes to point out the reason why the Steelers are 10-3 is because of their defense.

I guarentee you that if the Chiefs have a #1 defense in all major category, we would probably be wrapping up the AFC West Crown.

[Mecca]

GFY, srsly.

Good to see I found one...go bitch about Roethlisbergers bad fantasy numbers.

[the Talking Can]

Yeah, I'm using my damn eyes to point out the reason why the Steelers are 10-3 is because of their defense.

I guarentee you that if the Chiefs have a #1 defense in all major category, we would probably be wrapping up the AFC West Crown.


kc fans are hopeless

[Mecca]

Yeah, I'm using my damn eyes to point out the reason why the Steelers are 10-3 is because of their defense.

I guarentee you that if the Chiefs have a #1 defense in all major category, we would probably be wrapping up the AFC West Crown.

Address the difference in Tennessee and Pittsburgh you can have a great defense one team is a legit contender and 1 team is not...the difference is the guy under center.

[Coach]

is that a slogan from a coffe cup?

Well, is it a fact that your skill players can be a very good players if they have strong protection up front?

[the Talking Can]

The average NFL fan is dumb....there's really no other way to put it. Think about alot of the football fans you come in contact with and how stupid you generally think they are.

the average nfl fan is dumb

the average kc fan is fucking retarded

['Hamas' Jenkins]

And if he didn't have the #1 rated defense across the board, no one would be sucking him off, because the Steelers would be .500 at best.

I'm not saying he sucks, that's Mecca's butthurt coming out.

But to say that without him, they'd be under .500?

Retarded.

There are many QB's that could have this same team in the same position, or better.

I'll give him this: He's a winner.

But how hard is it to be a winner in this league when you only need 15 points per game?

Dude, he has an awful line, a pedestrian set of WRs, a third string, third down back as his feature guy, and a great D. He's not Steve Young being dumped into the 49ers of the early 90's where he has everything around him. He's got a great D, and little other help outside of Hines Ward.

[the Talking Can]

Well, is it a fact that your skill players can be a very good players if they have strong protection up front?

i have no idea what you're babbling about or what it has to do with the absolute primacy of franchise QBs....

['Hamas' Jenkins]

GFY, srsly.

Bob Sanders, the MVP of the Colts and the reason why they won the Super Bowl.

Who said that again?

[Mecca]

the average nfl fan is dumb

the average kc fan is fucking retarded

KC fans desire to rebuild the team that never won anything....I'm sure they drool over Tennessee's great regular season and likely playoff loss team since it doesn't have a QB.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Dude, he has an awful line, a pedestrian set of WRs, a third string, third down back as his feature guy, and a great D. He's not Steve Young being dumped into the 49ers of the early 90's where he has everything around him. He's got a great D, and little other help outside of Hines Ward.

And you're telling me that no other QB could accomplish what he has accomplished this year?

[Baby Lee]

Good to see I found one...go bitch about Roethlisbergers bad fantasy numbers.

You're such a cvnty little bitch. You can't stand behind your point, so you call everyone who has the temerity to disagree with your 'QB is king' mentality dumb and uninformed.

I'm not dumb, I'm not uninformed, I just disagree with your singular simplistic view of what makes for success in the NFL.

[the Talking Can]

Bob Sanders, the MVP of the Colts and the reason why they won the Super Bowl.

Who said that again?

ROFL

was that baby lee?

forgot who that was

['Hamas' Jenkins]

And you're telling me that no other QB could accomplish what he has accomplished this year?

Where did I say this?

[Coach]

Address the difference in Tennessee and Pittsburgh you can have a great defense one team is a legit contender and 1 team is not...the difference is the guy under center.

Tennessee will win a playoff game. FWIW, Kerry Collins did get Carolina to the NFC Championship game, and The Giants to the Super Bowl.

[KCTitus]

Yeah, I'm using my damn eyes to point out the reason why the Steelers are 10-3 is because of their defense.

I guarentee you that if the Chiefs have a #1 defense in all major category, we would probably be wrapping up the AFC West Crown.

See 1995 and 1997...I bet the Steelers dont sh!t the bed like KC did.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Where did I say this?


You didn't.

Mecca did.

I'm asking you to weigh in.

[dirk digler]

kc fans are hopeless

I am starting to think so

[Coach]

i have no idea what you're babbling about or what it has to do with the absolute primacy of franchise QBs....

Your QB needs solid protection upfront for him to do his job. Remember how bad Atlanta's O-line was last year? They were horrible all around. They fixed that, along with bringing in Matt Ryan.

If Matt Ryan came in, without ANY CHANGES to the Falcon O-line, Matt Ryan wouldn't be Matt "God" Ryan.

What I am saying is that your skill position players (RB, QB's, WR's,) performance really relys on how good the offensive line is.

[Baby Lee]

Bob Sanders, the MVP of the Colts and the reason why they won the Super Bowl.

Who said that again?

I don't recall saying MVP, but otherwise, that'd be me. Perhaps you missed where the D gave up eleventybillion rushing yards to the Jags at the end of the season in a game they really needed without him. Or the D sucking all kinds of ass the whole season, to the point where they were coming close to being the 2003 Chiefs [who I don't even think gave up quite eleventy billion rushing yards to anyone]

[notorious]

It comes down to this: A great Defense will keep you in a lot of games when the O struggles. But, when it comes down to winning, you better have a QB that is nails at the end.

Our Chiefs teams had that special defense in the 90's, but we didn't have (or use, Grbac over Gannon) the QB to make that special play at the end.

Ben makes the plays that count whether he has played like crap or not.

[Coach]

See 1995 and 1997...I bet the Steelers dont sh!t the bed like KC did.

Well, they don't have Marty, and that makes a difference.

[FringeNC]

QB is the one true key to success

why is that not ****ing obvious to kansas city fans?

Or as Marty Schottenheimer said a few weeks ago, teams have to be able to throw the ball in the playoffs to win games.


but....Trent Green would be headed to the Hall of Fame if the Chiefs had a mediocre defense from 2002-2005. We had the #1 offense 4 years straight.

It seems every year, there is a play not to lose team like Tennessee that is shown the door because of a lack of ability to throw the football. There are just so many teams like that. Yet there is only the 2002-2005 Chiefs on the other side. It takes a good defense and the ability to throw the ball to win in the playoffs.

[Baby Lee]

Your QB needs solid protection upfront for him to do his job. Remember how bad Atlanta's O-line was last year? They were horrible all around. They fixed that, along with bringing in Matt Ryan.

If Matt Ryan came in, without ANY CHANGES to the Falcon O-line, Matt Ryan wouldn't be Matt "God" Ryan.

What I am saying is that your skill position players (RB, QB's, WR's,) performance really relys on how good the offensive line is.

My God Average NFL fans are dumb motherfuckers.

[Mecca]

That's the fuckin point of the argument, Pittsburghs line sucks fuckin ass yet he still makes plays.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You didn't.

Mecca did.

I'm asking you to weigh in.

Let's throw, say, Matt Schaub in as Pitt's QB.

They lose their last two games, IMO, and that's if he is still upright, which is highly unlikely.

I think a lot of QBs could lead that team to 11-5 or 10-6 and have similar lines.

I don't think many QBs have the moxie that he does, and you need that to win in the playoffs, because there will come a time when they need to make a drive.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Let's throw, say, Matt Schaub in as Pitt's QB.

They lose their last two games, IMO, and that's if he is still upright, which is highly unlikely.

I think a lot of QBs could lead that team to 11-5 or 10-6 and have similar lines.

I don't think many QBs have the moxie that he does, and you need that to win in the playoffs, because there will come a time when they need to make a drive.

Thanks for your honesty.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I don't recall saying MVP, but otherwise, that'd be me. Perhaps you missed where the D gave up eleventybillion rushing yards to the Jags at the end of the season in a game they really needed without him. Or the D sucking all kinds of ass the whole season, to the point where they were coming close to being the 2003 Chiefs [who I don't even think gave up quite eleventy billion rushing yards to anyone]

.

Yeah, because Colts rise or fall on the play of Manning, . . . Oh wait, it's Bob Sanders who determines where they go.

[Mecca]

Only Baby Lee would think a safety is more valuable than a top flight QB.

[dirk digler]

Let's throw, say, Matt Schaub in as Pitt's QB.

They lose their last two games, IMO, and that's if he is still upright, which is highly unlikely.

I think a lot of QBs could lead that team to 11-5 or 10-6 and have similar lines.

I don't think many QBs have the moxie that he does, and you need that to win in the playoffs, because there will come a time when they need to make a drive.

Yep. It is just not about playing great during the regular season it is about playing great in the playoffs and Big Ben has proved that by winning a SB.

[Coach]

Yep. It is just not about playing great during the regular season it is about playing great in the playoffs and Big Ben has proved that by winning a SB.

Big Ben didn't win the SB, not especially with a QB rating of 22.

Sorry.

[Baby Lee]

Only Baby Lee would think a safety is more valuable than a top flight QB.

Yeah cvnty, twist it up where it looks like I say any safety is more valuable than any QB.

I'm talking about the SB Colts, the lynchpin of the 'QB King' thesis.

You ARE seriously misinformed if you think that the Colts were going anywhere in the playoffs their SB year if they played the way they had the last half of the season on D. Dunno if it was all Bob's play, Bob's play and leadership, a big ol' coincidence, or he was the needed functioning O2 sensor on an otherwise boggy engine. But he came back and they shut all their playoff opponents down and won the SB, as a team.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Big Ben didn't win the SB, not especially with a QB rating of 22.

Sorry.

He damn sure smoked a very good Denver team on the road in the AFC Championship, and beat Peyton Manning on the road.

[Coach]

He damn sure smoked a very good Denver team on the road in the AFC Championship, and beat Peyton Manning on the road.

That's fine, but he didn't win the SB. That's all I'm sayin.

[notorious]

Look at history. In the modern NFL, if you have a great defense, it is not guaranteed that you will win the big games. You have to have a QB that is stone cool when it counts.

A Superbowl QB doesn't have to throw for 4200 yds, 30 TD's, they just have to make the play when it counts the most. Example: Brady from 01' not Brady from 08'.

[Baby Lee]

beat Peyton Manning on the road.

Magic QB lose at home? that unpossible.



Love it, the Indianapolis Peyton Mannings. ROFL ROFL

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yeah cvnty, twist it up where it looks like I say any safety is more valuable than any QB.

I'm talking about the SB Colts, the lynchpin of the 'QB King' thesis.

You ARE seriously misinformed if you think that the Colts were going anywhere in the playoffs their SB year if they played the way they had the last half of the season on D. Dunno if it was all Bob's play, Bob's play and leadership, a big ol' coincidence, or he was the needed functioning O2 sensor on an otherwise boggy engine. But he came back and they shut all their playoff opponents down and won the SB, as a team.

You clearly said that Bob Sanders determines where they go, that they rise and fall on his play, and no amount of spinning or Apollo 13 references will obfuscate that.

You also seem to forget that the Colts D was eviscerated in the AFC Championship and that a certain QB led them back from an 18 point deficit.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Magic QB lose at home? that unpossible.



Love it, the Indianapolis Peyton Mannings. ROFL ROFL

You'd need a fleet of dump trucks and a sinkhole the size of New Jersey to empty out the sand in your cunt.

[Baby Lee]

You clearly said that Bob Sanders determines where they go, that they rise and fall on his play, and no amount of spinning or Apollo 13 references will obfuscate that.

You also seem to forget that the Colts D was eviscerated in the AFC Championship and that a certain QB led them back from an 18 point deficit.

He goes out, the D goes in the dumper, they get punked to the tune of the Jags running windsprints on them. He comes back, they solidify on D and win in the playoffs.

[Baby Lee]

You'd need a fleet of dump trucks and a sinkhole the size of New Jersey to empty out the sand in your ****.

Ah, yes, the mad libs insult generator cranks up, a clear sign of an argument won!!!

[FringeNC]

I'm certainly in the "it takes a very good QB to have consistent playoff success" camp, but this thread seems much too full of QB mysticism. Close games are close games. A team with a very good QB is going to be in position to win close games against other teams with very good QBs in the playoffs. Sometimes they win; sometimes they lose. If you repeatedly want to be in that position of winning meaningful games against good teams, you better have a good f'n QB. Then with a little luck (and a good defense), you'll win some SBs.

[Baby Lee]

You also seem to forget that the Colts D was eviscerated in the AFC Championship and that a certain QB led them back from an 18 point deficit.

You mean the deficit from the fumble recovery and pick-6 leading to 2 scores, and otherwise, the D holding NE below 100 yards rushing and 230 passing.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

He goes out, the D goes in the dumper, they get punked to the tune of the Jags running windsprints on them. He comes back, they solidify on D and win in the playoffs.

Except that he never "went out" he played 4 games that whole year and their rush D was awful when he was healthy and starting.

I forgot about how he shut down the Giants, when they gave up 186, or over 100 on the ground to a Houston team with no line and no backs. Yes, to Bob be the glory.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You mean the deficit from the fumble recovery and pick-6 leading to 2 scores, and otherwise, the D holding NE below 100 yards rushing and 230 passing.

Obviously it was Manning's fault for being sacked, and Indy's D was just stifling in giving up 4.6 YPC to the Patriots that day, and allowing Brady to complete more than 60 percent of his passes, while averaging over 7 yards a pass attempt.

I also forgot how lethal Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Ben Watson, a washed up Corey Dillon, a washed up Troy Brown, and Daniel Graham were.

But they faced the Butt Sex Chiefs, the McNair Ravens and Rex Grossman in the rain in the Super Bowl, therefore their D's performance must have been due to Bob Sanders and no other factors, you know, since he has such a proven record of causing their D to go to shit in his absence...like this year, for example.

[Rigodan]

Quarterback worth is not analogous to fantasy football value.

Example A

79.9 John Elway's career passer rating
79.6 Elvis Grbac's career passer rating

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Example A

79.9 John Elway's career passer rating
79.6 Elvis Grbac's career passer rating

Hog shit. Everyone knows that Karl Mecklenberg and Bill Romanowski were the real reasons Denver went to all those Super Bowls.

[notorious]

That would be sweet if they kept track of game deciding drive QB rating.

[dirk digler]

Big Ben didn't win the SB, not especially with a QB rating of 22.

Sorry.

I didn't say he won the SB all by himself I say he did win a SB. Big difference.

[KCTitus]

Hey...the QB/Defense debate is a good debate. All I have to say is KC won a couple of playoff games 15 years ago because of the QB they had. One aged Joe Montana.

Sure they had a defense too, but the Defense didnt throw the winning TD against Pittsburgh on 4th down in the last two minutes or against Houston on the road.

[dirk digler]

Hey...the QB/Defense debate is a good debate. All I have to say is KC won a couple of playoff games 15 years ago because of the QB they had. One aged Joe Montana.

Sure they had a defense too, but the Defense didnt throw the winning TD against Pittsburgh on 4th down in the last two minutes or against Houston on the road.

Titus you know better than to bring any common sense to this thread

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Hey...the QB/Defense debate is a good debate. All I have to say is KC won a couple of playoff games 15 years ago because of the QB they had. One aged Joe Montana.

Sure they had a defense too, but the Defense didnt throw the winning TD against Pittsburgh on 4th down in the last two minutes or against Houston on the road.

You'd think, with this hopelessly obvious point slapping people right in the face, fans would realize the importance of a QB, instead, they yearn for the 1995 Chiefs.

In the words of Derrick Coleman, "For who, for what?"

[ChiefsCountry]

Hey...the QB/Defense debate is a good debate. All I have to say is KC won a couple of playoff games 15 years ago because of the QB they had. One aged Joe Montana.


And look at the QBs who beat KC in the playoffs with our amazing defense - Marino (2), Kelly (2), Elway. And recently its been Manning raping us in the playoffs. But a HOF QB has no bearing on the playoffs.

All of the Chiefs playoff wins in history come from Dawson and Montana, besides 1 which was DeBerg. That should tell you something as well.

[dirk digler]

And look at the QBs who beat KC in the playoffs with our amazing defense - Marino (2), Kelly (2), Elway. And recently its been Manning raping us in the playoffs. But a HOF QB has no bearing on the playoffs.

All of the Chiefs playoff wins in history come from Dawson and Montana, besides 1 which was DeBerg. That should tell you something as well.

LMAO

Amazing isn't it?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That's why I always say the Chiefs have the dumbest fans in the league, bar none. They've been halfway up the mountain countless times, and keep blaming the sherpa for their inability to ascend when they are trying to scale K2 in a wife beater and bike shorts.

[jspchief]

Yes, clearly good defensive teams can't win in the post-season without franchise QBs like Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.

Gods knows the Steelers have a history of their D leaning on gunslingers like Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.

Roethlisberger put together a drive when they needed it most today. He's done it quite a few times in the past too. He's a good QB that can be clutch at times. That being said, the Steelers this year would be good with lesser QBs. Guys like Joe Flacco for example.

The problem with this thread is too many people are trying to twist the facts to fit what they want to happen on '09 draft day. Mecca turns every fucking thread into this kind of circle jerk.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yes, clearly good defensive teams can't win in the post-season without franchise QBs like Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.

Gods knows the Steelers have a history of their D leaning on gunslingers like Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.

Roethlisberger put together a drive when they needed it most today. He's done it quite a few times in the past too. He's a good QB that can be clutch at times. That being said, the Steelers this year would be good with lesser QBs. Guys like Joe Flacco for example.

The problem with this thread is too many people are trying to twist the facts to fit what they want to happen on '09 draft day. Mecca turns every fucking thread into this kind of circle jerk.

Rep.

[Mecca]

Ah cool exceptions are the norm..lets go with that thinking and see where it gets us.

[milkman]

People acting like Roethlisberger is Kerry Collins in this thread...it's pretty amusing.

People aren't arguing that.

They are arguing that without that defense, BR would not be in position to make plays to win games.

Yes, BR is a franchise QB, but if he were playing on a team with an average defense, that team would be a 5-6 win team.

You could argue that the Steelers would be ahead of the Chiefs because they have a franchise QB, and only the myopians that believe that Thigpen is a franchise QB would argue that.

But you have tunnel vision.

You simply refuse to flip a debate and look at the other side with or an open mind.

That's the reason people find it difficult to agree with you on anything, even when you're right.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yes, clearly good defensive teams can't win in the post-season without franchise QBs like Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.

Gods knows the Steelers have a history of their D leaning on gunslingers like Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.

Roethlisberger put together a drive when they needed it most today. He's done it quite a few times in the past too. He's a good QB that can be clutch at times. That being said, the Steelers this year would be good with lesser QBs. Guys like Joe Flacco for example.

The problem with this thread is too many people are trying to twist the facts to fit what they want to happen on '09 draft day. Mecca turns every fucking thread into this kind of circle jerk.

Here's the question:

Have dominant D, mediocre QBs won the Super Bowl more often than teams with elite QBs and merely good QBs?

[dirk digler]

Yes, clearly good defensive teams can't win in the post-season without franchise QBs like Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.

Gods knows the Steelers have a history of their D leaning on gunslingers like Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.

Roethlisberger put together a drive when they needed it most today. He's done it quite a few times in the past too. He's a good QB that can be clutch at times. That being said, the Steelers this year would be good with lesser QBs. Guys like Joe Flacco for example.

The problem with this thread is too many people are trying to twist the facts to fit what they want to happen on '09 draft day. Mecca turns every ****ing thread into this kind of circle jerk.

I agree with your points jsp but alot of things have changed even going back 6-7 years ago. This is definitely a QB-driven league now and in order to win a SB you have to have a franchise type QB. Maybe things will change again who knows.

As far as the Chiefs go I am not one of these people that think Thigpen is the answer or that he sucks. It takes more than 10 games to determine that and I am willing to give him more time. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to draft a franchise QB

[Mecca]

What am I not acknowledging? I said their defense is very important to what they do but without him they wouldn't be what they are now.

With just some ho hum QB they might be able to make the playoffs but they wouldn't be a legit contender. Anyone who tells me Roethlisberger is just a game manager is spending to much time with their nose in the stat book and not on the screen.

[jspchief]

Ah cool exceptions are the norm..lets go with that thinking and see where it gets us.I'm not making any such claim that exceptions are the norm.

But you're stating that the Steelers would be below .500 without a franchise QB. That the Titans have no prayer because their QB is Kerry Collins. And it's a bullshit argument drummed up to support your opinion on where our '09 draft pick should be used.

The fact is, there are a lot of formulas that can create a winning team. I'm not making any claim to what will work for the Chiefs in 2009. I'm just calling your bullshit arguments a spade.

[dirk digler]

People aren't arguing that.

They are arguing that without that defense, BR would not be in position to make plays to win games.

Yes, BR is a franchise QB, but if he were playing on a team with an average defense, that team would be a 5-6 win team.

You could argue that the Steelers would be ahead of the Chiefs because they have a franchise QB, and only the myopians that believe that Thigpen is a franchise QB would argue that.

But you have tunnel vision.

You simply refuse to flip a debate and look at the other side with or an open mind.

That's the reason people find it difficult to agree with you on anything, even when you're right.

I think what most people are missing is that in order to win honestly you have to both. You have to have a very good D and a very good QB. yes there have been exceptions to that but for the most part that rule still applies.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Again, I'll go with the poker analogy.

You win more Super Bowls with an elite QB and a merely good D than the other way around.

I'm not going to win every hand with pocket rockets, but I will win far more than if I have Ace-10 suited.

Why then, would I strive to get A-10, or act as though that is a better hand than pocket aces?

I don't understand that logic at all. People want to build an inferior team with an OK QB that they can talk themselves into because it might facilitate our rebuild by a year?

So that we can flame out in the playoffs again? I did the 90's, and I don't have a God to not believe in, so what's the selling point here?

[Mecca]

I'm not making any such claim that exceptions are the norm.

But you're stating that the Steelers would be below .500 without a franchise QB. That the Titans have no prayer because their QB is Kerry Collins. And it's a bullshit argument drummed up to support your opinion on where our '09 draft pick should be used.

The fact is, there are a lot of formulas that can create a winning team. I'm making any claim to what will work for the Chiefs in 2009. I'm just calling your bullshit arguments a spade.

Did you not see a team built just like the Titans lineup to many times in the 90s in KC to realize how that story ends?

[Mecca]

Again, I'll go with the poker analogy.

You win more Super Bowls with an elite QB and a merely good D than the other way around.

I'm not going to win every hand with pocket rockets, but I will win far more than if I have Ace-10 suited.

Why then, would I strive to get A-10, or act as though that is a better hand than pocket aces?

I don't understand that logic at all. People want to build an inferior team with an OK QB that they can talk themselves into because it might facilitate our rebuild by a year?

So that we can flame out in the playoffs again? I did the 90's, and I don't have a God to not believe in, so what's the selling point here?

Building a team like that would probably be safer and quicker, I think that's alot of it. I think there's a big fear of being this bad for 5 years.

[OnTheWarpath15]

People aren't arguing that.

They are arguing that without that defense, BR would not be in position to make plays to win games.

Yes, BR is a franchise QB, but if he were playing on a team with an average defense, that team would be a 5-6 win team.

You could argue that the Steelers would be ahead of the Chiefs because they have a franchise QB, and only the myopians that believe that Thigpen is a franchise QB would argue that.

But you have tunnel vision.

You simply refuse to flip a debate and look at the other side with or an open mind.

That's the reason people find it difficult to agree with you on anything, even when you're right.


http://i38.tinypic.com/2u8lclx.gif

[dirk digler]

Did you not see a team built just like the Titans lineup to many times in the 90s in KC to realize how that story ends?

In fairness the Chiefs really only had 1 QB in the mid 90's that started for them with playoff experience and that was Montana. Collins has already taken a team to the SB albeit he lost.

Collins experience could make a difference.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Here's the question:

Have dominant D, mediocre QBs won the Super Bowl more often than teams with elite QBs and merely good QBs?

You're missing something. More like this:

Have teams with dominant defenses and mediocre QB's won the Super Bowl more often than teams with Elite QB's and mediocre defenses?

[jspchief]

Here's the question:

Have dominant D, mediocre QBs won the Super Bowl more often than teams with elite QBs and merely good QBs?Here's the question... what the fuck was this thread about before Mecca turned it into another "What the Chiefs should do in the draft" shitfest.

Yes, franchise QBs more often than not are an integral part of successful teams. No one has disputed that.

What I take issue with is the notion that Tennessee or the Steelers' fates this year are going to be determined solely by their QB. We're talking about very good defenses, like defense that have won play-off games and Superbowls in the past with very average QBs. And that is a fact that has absolutely nothing to do with the Chiefs or the 2009 draft. For chrissakes, it's not like we have a defense that would make anyone think we can get by with a game manager at QB.

[Mecca]

He asked why the Steelers won close games....because they stay close and Roethlisberger makes plays in the 4th quarter like a franchise players does was my response.

That turned into "oh he's not a franchise player" and all that....yes obviously I spun the thread all by myself, I have that kind of talent.

[FringeNC]

It's pretty clear that to be consistently in the mix for championships you have to have a franchise QB. Occasionally, a team without one will win the SB, but they are generally not heard from again.

[By the way, all this talk of franchise QB....what about a franchise coach? I think I'd take Walsh over Montana and Belichick over Brady.]

[jspchief]

Did you not see a team built just like the Titans lineup to many times in the 90s in KC to realize how that story ends? Yea, I also saw a team like the Denver Elways that was a mixture of sucking and post-season ass-kickings for nearly 2 decades.

But none of that has jackshit to do with what this thread was about or what I've said in this thread.

[ChiefsCountry]

It's pretty clear that to be consistently in the mix for championships you have to have a franchise QB. Occasionally, a team without one will win the SB, but they are generally not heard from again.

[By the way, all this talk of franchise QB....what about a franchise coach? I think I'd take Walsh over Montana and Belichick over Brady.]

Montana won without Walsh and Aikman won without Jimmy Johnson.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You're missing something. More like this:

Have teams with dominant defenses and mediocre QB's won the Super Bowl more often than teams with Elite QB's and mediocre defenses?

The 1999 Rams defense wasn't nearly as good as their stats indicated.
The 2006 Colts were the definition of mediocre
The 2001 Pats had a mediocre D
The 98 Broncos had a pretty mediocre D that was obscured by their success.

All had elite, MVP caliber QBs though.

[dirk digler]

That turned into "oh he's not a franchise player" and all that....yes obviously I spun the thread all by myself, I have that kind of talent.

That is true. People were bashing Big Ben and saying he wasn't a franchise QB which IMVHO he obviously is.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Here's the question... what the fuck was this thread about before Mecca turned it into another "What the Chiefs should do in the draft" shitfest.

Yes, franchise QBs more often than not are an integral part of successful teams. No one has disputed that.

What I take issue with is the notion that Tennessee or the Steelers' fates this year are going to be determined solely by their QB. We're talking about very good defenses, like defense that have won play-off games and Superbowls in the past with very average QBs. And that is a fact that has absolutely nothing to do with the Chiefs or the 2009 draft. For chrissakes, it's not like we have a defense that would make anyone think we can get by with a game manager at QB.

But the Titans will be defined by that. They have a Super Bowl caliber D and a running game. They lack two things: good WRs, and a great QB.

If they fail, it's going to be due to deficiencies in the passing game.

[FringeNC]

Montana won without Walsh and Aikman won without Jimmy Johnson.

And maintaining a dynasty is a lot easier than building one. George Seifert was a disaster in Carolina.

[milkman]

Did you not see a team built just like the Titans lineup to many times in the 90s in KC to realize how that story ends?

A big reason that story ended that way had as much to so with coaching as it did with QB play.

A team like the Titans can win the SB.

To be a team that can compete for years, a franchise QB would be a huge difference.

[ChiefsCountry]

Its setting up for a Colts-Titans matchup in the playoffs. I think I would take Manning in that one, even though the Titans have had his number in the regular season.

[jspchief]

He asked why the Steelers won close games....because they stay close and Roethlisberger makes plays in the 4th quarter like a franchise players does was my response.

That turned into "oh he's not a franchise player" and all that....yes obviously I spun the thread all by myself, I have that kind of talent.How many of those close games we lost this year can be attributed to our QB? (please note this has no bearing on who I think we should draft in round 1 of 2009).

We are losing these games for a multitude of reasons, and QB play is pretty low on the list. Today we lost because Bowe dropped the onside, and a DB blew his coverage, and our running game sucks. And yes maybe a franchise QB could have made something happen that would have allowed us to win. But the fact is this team is broken in a lot of places and trying to argue that Roethlisberger is what separates us from the Steelers is completely absurd.

[OnTheWarpath15]

The 1999 Rams defense wasn't nearly as good as their stats indicated.
The 2006 Colts were the definition of mediocre
The 2001 Pats had a mediocre D
The 98 Broncos had a pretty mediocre D that was obscured by their success.

All had elite, MVP caliber QBs though.

I should have known how this would turn out.

All of those defenses weren't nearly as good as their rankings claim they were.

The 1999 Rams were ranked 4th. That's some David Copperfield shit, I guess.

The 2001 Patriots were ranked 6th. They sucked too.

The 1998 Broncos were ranked 8th.

But, they were all mediocre.

The whole point of the defense is to keep the other team from scoring. These teams did exactly that, and they are mediocre.

Got it.

[dirk digler]

Its setting up for a Colts-Titans matchup in the playoffs. I think I would take Manning in that one, even though the Titans have had his number in the regular season.

They play in Week 17 first

[OnTheWarpath15]

But the Titans will be defined by that. They have a Super Bowl caliber D and a running game. They lack two things: good WRs, and a great QB.

If they fail, it's going to be due to deficiencies in the passing game.

At least you left yourself an out, that's something you-know-who refuses to do...

[Mecca]

How many of those close games we lost this year can be attributed to our QB? (please note this has no bearing on who I think we should draft in round 1 of 2009).

We are losing these games for a multitude of reasons, and QB play is pretty low on the list. Today we lost because Bowe dropped the onside, and a DB blew his coverage, and our running game sucks. And yes maybe a franchise QB could have made something happen that would have allowed us to win. But the fact is this team is broken in a lot of places and trying to argue that Roethlisberger is what separates us from the Steelers is completely absurd.

I could tell you they lost because they put up 1 second half score that was handed to them on the 5 yard line...

[Mecca]

At least you left yourself an out, that's something you-know-who refuses to do...

Is that really even needed?

[dirk digler]

I should have known how this would turn out.

All of those defenses weren't nearly as good as their rankings claim they were.

The 1999 Rams were ranked 4th. That's some David Copperfield shit, I guess.

The 2001 Patriots were ranked 6th. They sucked too.

The 1998 Broncos were ranked 8th.

But, they were all mediocre.

The whole point of the defense is to keep the other team from scoring. These teams did exactly that, and they are mediocre.

Got it.

You could make the point though OTW that in case of the 98 Broncos and 99 Rams the success of their D came from the fact that the offense usually built up huge leads in the first half.

Though in the playoffs the Rams D did stand up.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yea, I also saw a team like the Denver Elways that was a mixture of sucking and post-season ass-kickings for nearly 2 decades.

But none of that has jackshit to do with what this thread was about or what I've said in this thread.

Five fucking Super Bowls. Five. Half of our fanbase (at least) wasn't even alive when the Chiefs last went to a Super Bowl.

[Mecca]

Five fucking Super Bowls. Five. Half of our fanbase (at least) wasn't even alive when the Chiefs last went to a Super Bowl.

My 16 year old brother was 1 when the Chiefs last won a playoff game, think about that.

[milkman]

How many of those close games we lost this year can be attributed to our QB? (please note this has no bearing on who I think we should draft in round 1 of 2009).

We are losing these games for a multitude of reasons, and QB play is pretty low on the list. Today we lost because Bowe dropped the onside, and a DB blew his coverage, and our running game sucks. And yes maybe a franchise QB could have made something happen that would have allowed us to win. But the fact is this team is broken in a lot of places and trying to argue that Roethlisberger is what separates us from the Steelers is completely absurd.

I think you could argue that a franchise QB puts the Steelers ahead of the Chiefs if all other things were equal.

I don't believe that you could argue that Thigpen is a franchise QB, at this point.

You could argue that he has some positives to work with, and might be, with good coaching, groomed into one.

But you could also argue that he might never be one.

[jspchief]

I could tell you they lost because they put up 1 second half score that was handed to them on the 5 yard line...And that's only because of the QB right?

We had an 11 point lead with 1:30 to go. You don't need a franchise QB to close out that game.

[Coach]

The 1999 Rams defense wasn't nearly as good as their stats indicated.
The 2006 Colts were the definition of mediocre
The 2001 Pats had a mediocre D
The 98 Broncos had a pretty mediocre D that was obscured by their success.

All had elite, MVP caliber QBs though.

The 2000 Baltimore Ravens had elite D, and their QB was Trent Dilfer.
The 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers had elite D with a medicore QB in Brad Johnson.
Hell, I could point out that the 1969 Chiefs, while had Len Dawson, they had a elite D.

[milkman]

BTW, jsp, it's always good to see you around.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Is that really even needed?

Butthurt much?

You bring it on yourself. I notice you didn't whine when Milkman called you out, you waited for me. Sweet of you.

Your egomaniacal bullshit is why you get piled on.

It's also why when a team like Carolina, Tennessee, etc win the Super Bowl, you're going to hear about it.

Might as well start preparing your excuses now, just in case.

[Coach]

I think you could argue that a franchise QB puts the Steelers ahead of the Chiefs if all other things were equal.

I don't believe that you could argue that Thigpen is a franchise QB, at this point.

You could argue that he has some positives to work with, and might be, with good coaching, groomed into one.

But you could also argue that he might never be one.

And I'm not saying that Thigpen is the QBOTF. Not saying that at all. I am saying however, Thigpen does deserve the chance to be a starting QB in 09, based on his performace, and his improvement from the Atlanta game to where he is now.

The off-season will be very important for Thigpen to understand what he needs to work on, which is his foot work, following through his passes (So the ball won't sail) and try not to lock on one receiver the whole time.

[dirk digler]

BTW, jsp, it's always good to see you around.

I second that. he needs to come around more. Also where did htismaqe run off to?

[OnTheWarpath15]

BTW, jsp, it's always good to see you around.

Co-signed.

[Mecca]

Playing the odds is retarded hold on while I make note.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I second that. he needs to come around more. Also where did htismaqe run off to?

He gave up trying to fight the asshats.

Good for him, but a shame for the board.

[Coach]

And that's only because of the QB right?

We had an 11 point lead with 1:30 to go. You don't need a franchise QB to close out that game.

Damn straight. That's what I was saying the whole time, it's not Thigpen's fault that the Chiefs somehow gave up 12 points in a minute.

If the Defense would have done their damned jobs, then we wouldn't even have this discussion.

[milkman]

And I'm not saying that Thigpen is the QBOTF. Not saying that at all. I am saying however, Thigpen does deserve the chance to be a starting QB in 09, based on his performace, and his improvement from the Atlanta game to where he is now.

The off-season will be very important for Thigpen to understand what he needs to work on, which is his foot work, following through his passes (So the ball won't sail) and try not to lock on one receiver the whole time.

No, coach, I think you've been pretty fair in your discussion of Thigpen.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I should have known how this would turn out.

All of those defenses weren't nearly as good as their rankings claim they were.

The 1999 Rams were ranked 4th. That's some David Copperfield shit, I guess.

The 2001 Patriots were ranked 6th. They sucked too.

The 1998 Broncos were ranked 8th.

But, they were all mediocre.

The whole point of the defense is to keep the other team from scoring. These teams did exactly that, and they are mediocre.

Got it.

I saw that Rams team play. That defense returned the same personnel the next year and they were unconscionably bad despite the fact that the offense was better before Warner broke his thumb in KC. 31st in points allowed, and 23rd in yards bad.

That team scored so many cheap TDs on fumble and pick returns it was unreal, and they played the worst schedule, or one of the worst, of all time.

That Broncos D was not good, I'm sorry. They were not a good defense. And that Pats D was 6th in points, but 24th in yards, and yards do matter. They affect TOP.

Again, you are basing your argument on pure stats rather than as a complimentary part. It's tantamount to me saying that sorting QBs by TD passes each year is the correct way to list the top 10 in the league.

[Mecca]

It is in a way his fault that the offense kept going 3 and out and not doing anything in the 2nd half....

The entire team is bad they all have faults and things they can do alot better. The defense should be alot better than that but your offense should also perform better in the 2nd halfs of games.

[dirk digler]

He gave up trying to fight the asshats.

Good for him, but a shame for the board.

I figured it was only temporary. I knew he couldn't stand hootie but who honestly can?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The 2000 Baltimore Ravens had elite D, and their QB was Trent Dilfer.
The 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers had elite D with a medicore QB in Brad Johnson.
Hell, I could point out that the 1969 Chiefs, while had Len Dawson, they had a elite D.

So 2 out of the last 10 teams, as opposed to 4/10.

Are you serious?

[dirk digler]

Damn straight. That's what I was saying the whole time, it's not Thigpen's fault that the Chiefs somehow gave up 12 points in a minute.

If the Defense would have done their damned jobs, then we wouldn't even have this discussion.

I agree Coach. Gun and douchebag Krumrie should be shown the door 5 minutes after the last game.

[jspchief]

1. I think you could argue that a franchise QB puts the Steelers ahead of the Chiefs if all other things were equal.

2. I don't believe that you could argue that Thigpen is a franchise QB, at this point.

You could argue that he has some positives to work with, and might be, with good coaching, groomed into one.

But you could also argue that he might never be one.

1. Of course. But all other things aren't equal, and the OP wasn't suggesting it, nor was he (or anyone else) suggesting that Thigpen was comparable to Ben.

2. I agree completely. Thats not what this thread was about until Mecca tried to make it about that.


Look, the guy asked why a team like the Steelers can win close games while we lose them. There is a boatload of reasons, and while Roethlisberger is one of them, He's not what I would consider the prevalent one, or the reason that comes to mind first. Are the people flaming Roethlisberger offbase? IMO yes. But not nearly as offbase as the claim that the Steelers would be below .500 without him.

[Coach]

No, coach, I think you've been pretty fair in your discussion of Thigpen.

And that's what I honestly expected from everybody else. Not to mention that he's technically a "rookie" in terms of game experience, even though he's been in the league for two years.

Still, he's 24, and he may, keyword being "MAY" be something special. Worse case scenerio, we may have a solid back-up QB in case if the Chiefs happen to go to a different direction.

One way or another, He has proven to me that he is more than capable of playing this game. Not to mention that while he has been getting beat up now and then, he still stays in one piece, unlike Brokie and Damon.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Damn straight. That's what I was saying the whole time, it's not Thigpen's fault that the Chiefs somehow gave up 12 points in a minute.

If the Defense would have done their damned jobs, then we wouldn't even have this discussion.

The Defense did their job today. Holding San Diego to 17 points (which is basically what they did) is commendable. The offense put up 14 points today, and did nothing in the second half.

[milkman]

Damn straight. That's what I was saying the whole time, it's not Thigpen's fault that the Chiefs somehow gave up 12 points in a minute.

If the Defense would have done their damned jobs, then we wouldn't even have this discussion.

I still believe it comes down to playcalling.

The Chiefs stopped attacking.

They attempted to just move the chains, burn the clock, and protect the lead.

Even when the Chiefs had outstanding defense with Marty, it was a failed strategy.

Hoping to protect a lead with this defense is suicide.

[Coach]

So 2 out of the last 10 teams, as opposed to 4/10.

Are you serious?

Well, aren't the Patriots D, during their run, elite, even though they had Tom Brady?

[cdcox]

I heard that Haynesworth might have an MCL. If so, I don't think the Titans are going to do much in the playoffs.

[FringeNC]

Who is the last team to have a multi-year string of big playoff successes who hasn't had a very good QB? How is this even an argument? Teams with game managers do win SBs, but why don't we hear from those teams again?

[Coach]

The Defense did their job today. Holding San Diego to 17 points (which is basically what they did) is commendable. The offense put up 14 points today, and did nothing in the second half.

But at the same time, you cannot give up 12 points in 1:30, especially during crunch time.

And as for the offense, it's not the players fault that they couldn't do anything. The playcalling was completely different if you were to compare the first half to the 2nd half.

The Chiefs attacked during the first half. What happened? They jumped out to a 14-3 halftime lead.

In the 2nd half, they played chickenshit football, playing to not to lose the game. What happened? Came back and bit us in the ass!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Well, aren't the Patriots D, during their run, elite, even though they had Tom Brady?

The question was teams with elite D's and mediocre QBs, or vice versa.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

But at the same time, you cannot give up 12 points in 1:30, especially during crunch time.

And as for the offense, it's not the players fault that they couldn't do anything. The playcalling was completely different if you were to compare the first half to the 2nd half.

The Chiefs attacked during the first half. What happened? They jumped out to a 14-3 halftime lead.

In the 2nd half, they played chickenshit football, playing to not to lose the game. What happened? Came back and bit us in the ass!

The offense also needed one yard and couldn't get it, and the defense should not have been on the field for that second drive. The offense has no excuse either.

[Mecca]

Who is the last team to have a multi-year string of big playoff successes who hasn't had a very good QB? How is this even an argument? Teams with game managers do win SBs, but why don't we hear from those teams again?

They really only win bowls occasionally the last team that did it did it when 2002?

[Coach]

I still believe it comes down to playcalling.

The Chiefs stopped attacking.

They attempted to just move the chains, burn the clock, and protect the lead.

Even when the Chiefs had outstanding defense with Marty, it was a failed strategy.

Hoping to protect a lead with this defense is suicide.

I fully agree. There was a big difference in the first and second halves IMHO. They came out, started attacking the Chargers in the 1st half, jumped to a 14-3 halftime lead.

Then the 2nd half, their philosophy just suddenly changed. It just got ultraconseritive.

Remember everybody's saying that the coaches don't make any halftime adjustments? Even I thought they don't? Goddamn, was I wrong. They did make adjustment, and that was from making a solid respectable NFL offense to a NFL Europe offense.

[jspchief]

It is in a way his fault that the offense kept going 3 and out and not doing anything in the 2nd half....
Yea, and in a way the Steelers defense gets the credit for that win since they kept their team within a single score of vistory for the entire.

I find it a bit hypocritical that you can claim that the last few minutes worth of play gets the credit for the outcome of the Steelers game, but not the outcome of the Chiefs game.

It's rooted in your bias towards Thigpen and how it relates to your opinion on how our 1st draft pick should be used in 2009.

Personally, I'll be happy if we take Stafford. That doesn't mean I need to misplace blame in an effort to flame Thigpen. You act like it's stupid for people to want Thigpen to succeed. What exactly are you rooting for? The Chiefs, or just results that give you "I told you so" moments?

[Coach]

The offense also needed one yard and couldn't get it, and the defense should not have been on the field for that second drive. The offense has no excuse either.

Yes, they needed one yard, but the playcalling was terrible. If my wife, who knows not a whole alot of football, said that the Chiefs was going to run up behind the guard's ass on a 3rd and 1, and they ran exactly what she predicted, then they are too predictable.

I wanted a spread em' out and give Tyler the QB option of either a quick slant in the middle or a straight up QB draw.

[Mecca]

One thing to notice is this, the defense is bad but they have the 3rd most takeaways which means if this offense was "good" like some people would claim they'd have some more wins...

Truth be told both sides of the ball are very bad.

[Coach]

FWIW, let's replace the Steeler D with the Chief D, during the Raven's game. Would Flacco lead the Ravens down the field?

Possibly.

Would Rivers and Co. score the game winning TD?

Possibly as well, considering that our defensive coaches aren't worth a shit.

[Mecca]

Yea, and in a way the Steelers defense gets the credit for that win since they kept their team within a single score of vistory for the entire.

I find it a bit hypocritical that you can claim that the last few minutes worth of play gets the credit for the outcome of the Steelers game, but not the outcome of the Chiefs game.

It's rooted in your bias towards Thigpen and how it relates to your opinion on how our 1st draft pick should be used in 2009.

Personally, I'll be happy if we take Stafford. That doesn't mean I need to misplace blame in an effort to flame Thigpen. You act like it's stupid for people to want Thigpen to succeed. What exactly are you rooting for? The Chiefs, or just results that give you "I told you so" moments?

I have a really really hard time wanting the QB of my team to be a guy who plays in the pistol tried to run the option today and can't play from under center...

If we had drafted Vince Young I wouldn't be all gung ho supportive of him either.

[dirk digler]

One thing to notice is this, the defense is bad but they have the 3rd most takeaways which means if this offense was "good" like some people would claim they'd have some more wins...

Truth be told both sides of the ball are very bad.

Good is a relative term. They are considered good compared to the first half of the season.

[FringeNC]

I still believe it comes down to playcalling.

The Chiefs stopped attacking.

They attempted to just move the chains, burn the clock, and protect the lead.

Even when the Chiefs had outstanding defense with Marty, it was a failed strategy.

Hoping to protect a lead with this defense is suicide.

Also, it's a horrid strategy for a 2-11 team to boot. We want to see what Tyler has, and telling him "just don't make a mistake now that we are winning" is BS. I thought we wanted to find out about this offense and about Thigpen. If so, why go into a shell in the second half?

[jspchief]

Who is the last team to have a multi-year string of big playoff successes who hasn't had a very good QB? How is this even an argument?
It's not. Not a single person in this thread has claimed otherwise. Nor has anyone in this thread claimed that "our offense is good" or any of the other fake positions that Mecca is trying to debate in this thread.

Somehow this went from a team's ability to win close games, to what kind of QB it takes to build a dynasty.

If people would actually read responses instead of spouting off with the same drivel they dump into every thread, maybe that would be clearer.

[Mecca]

I think you need a new avatar.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yes, they needed one yard, but the playcalling was terrible. If my wife, who knows not a whole alot of football, said that the Chiefs was going to run up behind the guard's ass on a 3rd and 1, and they ran exactly what she predicted, then they are too predictable.

I wanted a spread em' out and give Tyler the QB option of either a quick slant in the middle or a straight up QB draw.

It's motherfucking 3rd and 1. You run up the guard's ass. You don't get cute. At some point you stop trying to play chess and you punch them in the mouth. If you can't get 1 yard, you don't deserve to win.

[dirk digler]

Somehow this went from a team's ability to win close games, to what kind of QB it takes to build a dynasty.


Actually it became bash Big Ben thread or Peyton Manning is lucky to have Bob Sanders on his team

[jspchief]

I think you need a new avatar.Yea, I do. But honestly I don't spend enough time here anymore to care. And I'm not particularly concerned about that fact that I once wanted Croyle to succeed for this team.

That's the difference between you and me. I root for our players, not my opinions.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It's motherfucking 3rd and 1. You run up the guard's ass. You don't get cute. At some point you stop trying to play chess and you punch them in the mouth. If you can't get 1 yard, you don't deserve to win.

That's fine.

But why not run behind the PRO BOWL guard, instead of the bum that shouldn't even be on the fucking roster?

I wish I had a breakdown of how often this team runs right, behind the weakness of the line.

I'd bet it's 65-70% overall, possibly higher in key situations like the one we are discussing.

[Mecca]

Yes, they needed one yard, but the playcalling was terrible. If my wife, who knows not a whole alot of football, said that the Chiefs was going to run up behind the guard's ass on a 3rd and 1, and they ran exactly what she predicted, then they are too predictable.

I wanted a spread em' out and give Tyler the QB option of either a quick slant in the middle or a straight up QB draw.

If you can't get 1 yard on a run up the middle you don't deserve to win.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

It's not. Not a single person in this thread has claimed otherwise. Nor has anyone in this thread claimed that "our offense is good" or any of the other fake positions that Mecca is trying to debate in this thread.

Somehow this went from a team's ability to win close games, to what kind of QB it takes to build a dynasty.

If people would actually read responses instead of spouting off with the same drivel they dump into every thread, maybe that would be clearer.

You really, really need to read the first 50 or so posts in this thread.

[Mecca]

Yea, I do. But honestly I don't spend enough time here anymore to care. And I'm not particularly concerned about that fact that I once wanted Croyle to succeed for this team.

That's the difference between you and me. I root for our players, not my opinions.

Rooting for a player and logically thinking about what he is aren't the same thing.

[Mecca]

You really, really need to read the first 50 or so posts in this thread.

Nah man Mecca ruined someone elses life, it's what I do!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That's fine.

But why not run behind the PRO BOWL guard, instead of the bum that shouldn't even be on the fucking roster?

I wish I had a breakdown of how often this team runs right, behind the weakness of the line.

I'd bet it's 65-70% overall, possibly higher in key situations like the one we are discussing.

I'm fine with that line of criticism, but at the same time, we shouldn't pretend that Brian Waters is a Pro Bowl guard. We have 3 years of Roafless footage on him. He isn't.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Nah man Mecca ruined someone elses life, it's what I do!

Where does the "ruining lives" come from?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Nah man Mecca ruined someone elses life, it's what I do!

Self-obsess much?

You may have finally beat out Clayton as the biggest attention whore on this board.

Congratulations.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm fine with that line of criticism, but at the same time, we shouldn't pretend that Brian Waters is a Pro Bowl guard. We have 3 years of Roafless footage on him. He isn't.

Can't, and won't argue that.

But he absolutely is the better option to run behind.

[jspchief]

You really, really need to read the first 50 or so posts in this thread.I did. And if you read my posts you saw the one where I said those guys were offbase in bashing Big Ben.

But instead of refuting them with common sense, you guys started in on your defense of why we need a franchise QB.

[Mecca]

Where does the "ruining lives" come from?

LOL oh there was this thread several months back where people were discussing people they didn't like or people they had on ignore something like that.

And Frazod had this huge rant about me it was just so so out there that I started cracking up and I was like damn I ruined that dudes life on a message board.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I did. And if you read my posts you saw the one where I said those guys were offbase in bashing Big Ben.

But instead of refuting them with common sense, you guys started in on your defense of why we need a franchise QB.

Yes, I definitely did this in my first foray into this thread by saying the following:

I bashed Ben for a long time, but you have to give the guy his props.

He's one of the five best QBs in the game. No, he's not a fantasy God, like Aaron Rodgers.

He takes a piss pounding behind a shit line with piss poor backs and gets up every time. He's led his team to victory in the fourth quarter two straight weeks despite having lackluster games up until then. That takes confidence and guts in spades, and he has it.

[Coach]

It's motherfucking 3rd and 1. You run up the guard's ass. You don't get cute. At some point you stop trying to play chess and you punch them in the mouth. If you can't get 1 yard, you don't deserve to win.

Yet, for some reason, the Chiefs decided to run on the Smith/Jones side, instead of a Smith/Waters side.

Or a better option to go would had been the Albert/Waters side. IF you need one measly fucking yard, you need to go behind your two best linemen, period. And they are Waters and Albert. Or even better option would have been a playaction pass to Tony, or a Mike Cox coming out of his FB spot.

One way or another, there are alot of blame to go around. You're right, if you can't get one yard, you shouldn't win. If you let the other team score 12 points in about a minute, you shouldn't win either. Heck, missing two FG's, you shouldn't win either.

[milkman]

It's mother****ing 3rd and 1. You run up the guard's ass. You don't get cute. At some point you stop trying to play chess and you punch them in the mouth. If you can't get 1 yard, you don't deserve to win.

If you can't get 1 yard on a run up the middle you don't deserve to win.

I disagree.

We already know that we struggle mightily when we attempt to run up the middle in short yardage situations.

We don't deserve to win because we have a stupid staff that can't seem to figure out the fucking obvious.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by frazod
Anything the Chiefs are better at YOU'D NEVER MENTION. There has to be a negative connotation. Even if you say something good, there has to be a backhanded jab. "Well, they won, but....", or "he was really good once, but now...." And then when called on it you fall back to "No, I like the Chiefs, really I do, I'm just honest and realistic."

:whackit:

Seriously, F#CK YOU, scumbag. You're not here to be honest - you're here to annoy actual Chief fans, of which you are clearly not. You're a troll who's too much of a puss even in cyberspace to do it directly; instead you conceal your hatred of this team and its fans in subtleties and think we're all too stupid to figure it out. I have more respect for imbeciles like Shrek or Drunk than I do you. At least they're HONEST about how much they hate Kansas City.

Go be a Chargers fan. Seriously, that's the right move for you. You've never been within 1,000 miles of Southern California and that hasn't stopped you from being a USC fan, you pathetic piece of shit. Just release your inner Kalifornian and take that final step. You'll be among friends there - I assume that would be something new for you. Hell, you just might like it. Happy trails, emocca. We'll even help you pack.

Can somebody find this douche a link to a Chargers BB and make an introduction?
------------------------
ROFL ROFL

Found it

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I disagree.

We already know that we struggle mightily when we attempt to run up the middle in short yardage situations.

We don't deserve to win because we have a stupid staff that can't seem to figure out the fucking obvious.

Then run off tackle. But you shouldn't throw the ball in that situation.

[Mecca]

I honestly laughed for a good 10 minutes.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by frazod
Anything the Chiefs are better at YOU'D NEVER MENTION. There has to be a negative connotation. Even if you say something good, there has to be a backhanded jab. "Well, they won, but....", or "he was really good once, but now...." And then when called on it you fall back to "No, I like the Chiefs, really I do, I'm just honest and realistic."

:whackit:

Seriously, F#CK YOU, scumbag. You're not here to be honest - you're here to annoy actual Chief fans, of which you are clearly not. You're a troll who's too much of a puss even in cyberspace to do it directly; instead you conceal your hatred of this team and its fans in subtleties and think we're all too stupid to figure it out. I have more respect for imbeciles like Shrek or Drunk than I do you. At least they're HONEST about how much they hate Kansas City.

Go be a Chargers fan. Seriously, that's the right move for you. You've never been within 1,000 miles of Southern California and that hasn't stopped you from being a USC fan, you pathetic piece of shit. Just release your inner Kalifornian and take that final step. You'll be among friends there - I assume that would be something new for you. Hell, you just might like it. Happy trails, emocca. We'll even help you pack.

Can somebody find this douche a link to a Chargers BB and make an introduction?
------------------------
ROFL ROFL

Found it


I wouldn't call that a life ruined, and really, there are few rants more entertaining that Frazod's.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by frazod
Anything the Chiefs are better at YOU'D NEVER MENTION. There has to be a negative connotation. Even if you say something good, there has to be a backhanded jab. "Well, they won, but....", or "he was really good once, but now...." And then when called on it you fall back to "No, I like the Chiefs, really I do, I'm just honest and realistic."

:whackit:

Seriously, F#CK YOU, scumbag. You're not here to be honest - you're here to annoy actual Chief fans, of which you are clearly not. You're a troll who's too much of a puss even in cyberspace to do it directly; instead you conceal your hatred of this team and its fans in subtleties and think we're all too stupid to figure it out. I have more respect for imbeciles like Shrek or Drunk than I do you. At least they're HONEST about how much they hate Kansas City.

Go be a Chargers fan. Seriously, that's the right move for you. You've never been within 1,000 miles of Southern California and that hasn't stopped you from being a USC fan, you pathetic piece of shit. Just release your inner Kalifornian and take that final step. You'll be among friends there - I assume that would be something new for you. Hell, you just might like it. Happy trails, emocca. We'll even help you pack.

Can somebody find this douche a link to a Chargers BB and make an introduction?
------------------------
ROFL ROFL

Found it


Can you link the thread you found that in?

[milkman]

Then run off tackle. But you shouldn't throw the ball in that situation.

Off tackle, QB draw, and end around even.

But plaease stop trying to run it up the guard's ass.

Our O-Line sucks at blocking for it, and LJ sucks at making things happen with it.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=171095&highlight=emocca

[OnTheWarpath15]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=171095&highlight=emocca

Gracias.

[Coach]

Off tackle, QB draw, and end around even.

But plaease stop trying to run it up the guard's ass.

Our O-Line sucks at blocking for it, and LJ sucks at making things happen with it.

I'm fine with that, but we also need to consider that the other team more than likely will KNOW that we will be running the ball, therefore, making the possibility of the playaction play possibly being successful.

[milkman]

I'm fine with that, but we also need to consider that the other team more than likely will KNOW that we will be running the ball, therefore, making the possibility of the playaction play possibly being successful.

The PA worked like a fucking charm on the Bowe TD.