KC Star: Another interesting Herm vs. Carl article

[BigRock]

Back before the season, the Star printed the now prophetic column "This Could Be Peterson's Last Stand with Chiefs" that detailed some of the rift between Herm and Carl.

(That article, BTW, is posted here: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=189722)

Here's another one now, which includes things like this passage:

With the draft approaching last spring, Peterson suggested to Edwards the team sign a handful of high-priced veterans. Peterson said that would ease Kansas City’s transition and might translate into a few more victories. Edwards recoiled, saying those players would steal playing time from the youngsters, and the development of those youngsters was the whole point of the rebuilding.

Oh, Carl. God bless you, you crazy nutball.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/938739.html

Chiefs’ Edwards still standing, for now
By KENT BABB
The Kansas City Star

Herm Edwards stepped off the platform and looked Carl Peterson in the eye. Edwards had just finished trying to explain how the Chiefs blew an 18-point lead in the second half Sunday, a loss to San Diego that Edwards described as the most painful in his nearly 30 years of professional football.

Peterson pursed his lips and patted Edwards on the right shoulder, and the men walked together into a cold corridor at Arrowhead Stadium. The exit had grown familiar after losses, Peterson’s sympathetic pat on his coach’s shoulder and the two of them walking out as a singular, seemingly unbreakable unit.

It was a public display of unity, of strength in the storm of a 2-12 season. But behind the scenes, a wedge had grown between Edwards and Peterson nearly a year ago, and the path Edwards took — one different from the previous three Chiefs coaches under Peterson — might be the reason it was Peterson, not Edwards, who resigned Monday. The coach had distanced himself from what one Chiefs official described late Monday as chairman Clark Hunt’s “eroding confidence” in Peterson’s judgment.

Peterson liked signing veterans and chasing playoff spots; building a team for one season and later doing it again. Edwards preferred to reinforce the future, even if that meant days like Sunday.

After he took the Chiefs job in 2006, Edwards told his new boss that he wanted to purge Kansas City’s roster and rebuild it with young players. That wasn’t the way it had been done under Marty Schottenheimer, Gunther Cunningham and Dick Vermeil, and Edwards faced resistance from Peterson that first offseason.

Edwards waited. The Chiefs made the playoffs in Edwards’ first season, and some high-ranking team officials have said that was the worst thing that could have happened in what would become a tug-of-war between Edwards and Peterson over the next two seasons.

“I was always under the impression that they were friends; that’s why (Edwards) was there in the first place,” says Gil Brandt, a longtime NFL personnel man who describes himself as a friend of Peterson’s. “Then, all of a sudden, it was like (Peterson) wore out his welcome.”

Edwards went to Peterson again after that playoff appearance and presented his case to rebuild. Peterson declined, saying he thought the Chiefs might have one more playoff appearance in them before a rebuilding project would suspend Kansas City’s postseason hopes.

Then the Chiefs went 4-12 last year, and Edwards had had enough. He had been speaking with Hunt about an overhaul, and Hunt was on board. Edwards couldn’t get Peterson’s blessing, so he got the blessing of the only man in the organization more powerful than the Chiefs’ president/general manager/CEO.

“Clark,” Edwards said late Monday, “he believes in that.”

Peterson’s mistake was that he continued to resist Edwards’ plan. Hunt had adopted the notion of rebuilding as the right way, but Peterson kept prodding Edwards to shelve the destruction — at least in the complete manner Edwards had suggested.

With the draft approaching last spring, Peterson suggested to Edwards the team sign a handful of high-priced veterans. Peterson said that would ease Kansas City’s transition and might translate into a few more victories. Edwards recoiled, saying those players would steal playing time from the youngsters, and the development of those youngsters was the whole point of the rebuilding.

It was around that time that Peterson’s power began to recede at Arrowhead Stadium, and Edwards’ control strengthened. The Chiefs drafted 12 players and signed a handful of second-tier free agents, players who would not outplay most of the rookies, the centerpiece of Edwards’ and Hunt’s vision.

Even the team’s longtime training camp location, River Falls, Wis., was a source of contention between Peterson and Edwards. Peterson liked it in Wisconsin; Edwards wanted it moved somewhere closer to Kansas City. Last week, the team announced the Chiefs were close to an agreement that would move training camp to St. Joseph after 19 summers in River Falls.

It was at training camp last summer that former NFL executive Brandt noticed the distance between Edwards and Peterson. Brandt says training camp had been Peterson’s baby; he attended practices, meals and workouts; he was nothing if not visible. Something was different this time, when Brandt spent three days observing the Chiefs. One thing stood out more than anything else.

“He wasn’t there at all,” Brandt says of Peterson. “That was highly unusual. That was not the way Carl operated. More than anything, he loved looking at the players and seeing what they had.

“Carl wanted to go status quo and try to win 10 games, and Herm told Clark that the best way to go was tear it down. I think there’s kind of the feeling that if there were going to be a fight, that Clark would probably be on Herman’s side.”

The problem for Edwards now is that the fight has been decided. Peterson is out, and for now, Edwards remains in. Peterson was less popular than Edwards, and that was a buffer for the coach. Now that buffer has been removed, shifting the spotlight toward a coach who has won 13 games in three seasons and now is alone as he carries the team’s burden.

Hunt said Monday that he planned to split the roles Peterson held and that Hunt would look outside the organization for a general manager. Hunt left open the fate of Edwards, saying the decision on his future and that of the other coaches would have “significant input” from the new general manager.

“I’m sure that doesn’t bode well for Herm,” says former quarterback Rich Gannon, who played for the Chiefs in the 1990s. “I think he realizes the severity of it. The days of a guy getting hired and getting three full years to get it turned around are over. I don’t think owners and management have that patience that they once did.”

Hunt has said he does not possess the patience of his late father, Chiefs founder Lamar Hunt. Clark Hunt says he will search for a GM who understands rebuilding and where the Chiefs are in their project.

Hunt stopped short Monday of guaranteeing Edwards would return for a fourth season. Shortly after meeting with Peterson during the early afternoon Monday, Hunt’s next stop was Edwards’ office at Chiefs headquarters. Hunt looked at Edwards, told him what had happened and reiterated his expectations.

The conversation had a familiar tone to it; Edwards has said he speaks often with Hunt and that they often discuss Kansas City’s future. On Monday, the men parted ways, both of them moving toward other responsibilities. Hunt met with small groups of reporters, and Edwards continued his regular meetings with assistant coaches.

Later, Edwards continued the politicking that separated him from Peterson so many months ago — and earned the coach a slight edge over Peterson, enough of an edge that it was Peterson as this season’s first casualty. Peterson’s way was seen as archaic; Edwards’ was seen as fresh. Peterson wanted to hang on to the past; Edwards kept talking about the future.

For Edwards to continue his vision, Peterson could no longer be a part of the picture.

“I’m not tremendously surprised that Carl stepped down. I would be very surprised if they let Herm go,” Hall of Fame quarterback Len Dawson says. “I just think Clark likes the direction it’s going. That’s just a feeling I get, that he likes Herm.”

Edwards went on a radio show and talked about the progress the Chiefs had made.

“This team has gotten better,” Edwards says. “It’s got a lot of young players. I think the foundation is built for this football team right now. I like the direction this organization has taken now, with the youth and how they’re going to acquire players from here on out. It’s a great situation to be in for a football coach.”

Edwards says he is planning for the Chiefs’ final two games and is not concerning himself with what happens beyond that. He has said throughout this season that he feels safe in his job, and Monday was proof Edwards had some job security — at least more than Peterson possessed.

“These years are hard on a football team,” says Floyd Reese, Tennessee’s former GM and another friend of Peterson’s.

And as this one winds to a close, Edwards’ future remains in doubt. But one thing was made certain after Monday: If Edwards does not survive this season, he and Peterson will at least break their public, if not contrived, tradition. They will not be walking out together.

[Mecca]

No matter what Len says, if Clark likes Herm enough to try to impose him on an incoming GM anyone who's a worthy candidate will turn the job down.

[crazycoffey]

No matter what Len says, if Clark likes Herm enough to try to impose him on an incoming GM anyone who's a worthy candidate will turn the job down.

He's not saying imposed. Dammit why are you so fuggin negative all the freakin time? Clark is going to tell the new GM that Herm had so much to do with where the chiefs are. if the the new GM is the one that wins clark over and says he'll only take the job if he hires his coach, than herm will be gone.

If what really happened behind the closed doors reflect what this article reflects and the new GM prospect sees it that way, herm may stay. He is not a Bad coach, we could do sooooo much worse. But the absolute worst thing that could happen is herm be forced on a new GM or forced out, just because of a new GM. Herm is building something and we all have to realize the good of that, even if we aren't totally on board (as fans)

[Hammock Parties]

Herm throws Carl under the bus.

Just another brick in the wall.

[Mecca]

You lost me on Herms not a bad coach...

It's funny to still see a few Herm supporters around.

[BigRock]

No matter what Len says, if Clark likes Herm enough to try to impose him on an incoming GM anyone who's a worthy candidate will turn the job down.

Also, if Clark wants to force the incoming GM to wear a sundress and poop on his desk, anyone worthy will turn it down.

Why don't we just make a list of all the things a GM won't do, even though nobody's suggested Clark will ever ask them to do it?

[Mecca]

Also, if Clark wants to force the incoming GM to wear a sundress and poop on his desk, anyone worthy will turn it down.

Why don't we just make a list of all the things a GM won't do, even though nobody's suggested Clark will ever ask them to do it?

It was just a response to Len saying he'd be surprised if Herm was let go, well what does he expect?

There's a bunch of things going on now that a new GM and coach probably won't be doing.....Tyler Thigpen running the spread pistol is probably one of them.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

lol this isn't even an issue. Let me know when a new GM has kept the previous head coach when he has only won 13 games in so many years and I'll suck your dick

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Also, if Clark wants to force the incoming GM to wear a sundress and poop on his desk, anyone worthy will turn it down.

Why don't we just make a list of all the things a GM won't do, even though nobody's suggested Clark will ever ask them to do it?

Clark is different. He won me over today, and I'm confident Herm is gone too. No doubts.

[DaneMcCloud]

Outside of Kansas City, you'll find very few people that think that Herm is a "bad" coach.

[Mecca]

Outside of Kansas City, you'll find very few people that think that Herm is a "bad" coach.

They reside in New York, Herm is like a used car salesman, awesome talker good and spinning all the bullshit but that's about it. He's even good at selling it to the players which is why alot of players like him but the fact remains he's not a good preparation coach or a gameday coach.

Maybe he should be a motivational speaker.

[teedubya]

Herm throws Carl under the bus.

Just another brick in the wall.

Soon, Clark will be the final excuse... for not giving his rebuild enough time.

Herm Excusewards.

[Hammock Parties]

Outside of Kansas City, you'll find very few people that think that Herm is a "bad" coach.

Less than bad is not equal to good.

He's in way over his head with this rebuild. He's a poor judge of talent and an even poorer gameday coach.

[Mecca]

Less than bad is not equal to good.

He's in way over his head with this rebuild. He's a poor judge of talent and an even poorer gameday coach.

I think Dane thinks Herm is a good coach or something, check out the other thread...

[DaneMcCloud]

I think Dane thinks Herm is a good coach or something, check out the other thread...

Again, good, yes.

Great?

Probably not.

I have a feeling you don't know what a bad coach can do to a franchise.

Oh, I forgot. You're not 50, you're not "online" during the games and you only watch USC.

You're fucking retard.

[Mecca]

You mean like go 4-12 and 2-12..oh wait, or have a career record significantly under 500, or have his highest winning year be 10 wins...

Cmon now maybe Herm isn't the worst coach ever but he surely isn't by any means good.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Herm hasn't proven he's a good coach, IMO. He's taken the leftovers of the previous coaches players and taken those teams to the playoffs. He MAY be on the right track to rebuilding his way, but his way gets you fired. He should've had results by now in the win column.

[DaneMcCloud]

You mean like go 4-12 and 2-12..oh wait, or have a career record significantly under 500, or have his highest winning year be 10 wins...

Cmon now maybe Herm isn't the worst coach ever but he surely isn't by any means good.

Frank Gansz
Tom Bettis
Rod Marinelli
Romeo Crennel
Norv Turner
Frank Kush
Buddy Ryan
Dennis Erickson
Butch Davis
Jim Haslett
Dave McGinness
Marty Morninwheg
Mike Nolan

THOSE are bad coaches.

Herm can make the playoffs 9 times out of 10 with a reasonably talented roster.

If you can't see that and the problems with the 2007 and 2008 team, you're a dumbfuck.

Is that what you are?

A dumbfuck?

[Mecca]

Ah yes Dane will list off some guys who were awful...and then say I'm a dumbfuck ok..so being better than awful makes you good?

Even Butch Davis had a playoff appearance, Jim Haslett won a playoff game guess he's alright huh? Some of those guys are fine coordinators they just should be head coaches, Herm can't even fall back on that.

[DaneMcCloud]

Ah yes Dane will list off some guys who were awful...and then say I'm a dumbfuck ok..so being better than awful makes you good?

Even Butch Davis had a playoff appearance, and some of those guys are fine coordinators they just should be head coaches, Herm can't even fall back on that.

YOU said he's not "good".

So please, Mecca, tell me who's "good".

If you say Bill Walsh, you're a dumbfuck.

So go ahead, tell us who is "good".

[Mecca]

.....

I'm more interested in watching you defend Herm actually.

[DaneMcCloud]

.....

I'm more interested in watching you defend Herm actually.

Thanks for the response, you fucking moron.

You're opinion carries exactly ZERO weight.

I think you're fucking poser.

[Mecca]

Cool.....I think you might be able to have a better argument if you'd talk in a matter that was above 3rd grade level right now though.

You're defending Herm and calling me a "fucking moron" every post, think about that.

[DaneMcCloud]

Cool.....I think you might be able to have a better argument if you'd talk in a matter that was above 3rd grade level right now though.

You're defending Herm and calling me a "fucking moron" every post, think about that.

No, fuckhead, I'm saying that you're name-calling, just like any other undeducated Chiefs fan.

I'm saying that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and that you can't back up your bullshit with facts.

You're a POSER.

[kcchiefsus]

No, ****head, I'm saying that you're name-calling, just like any other undeducated Chiefs fan.

I'm saying that you don't know what the **** you're talking about and that you can't back up your bullshit with facts.

You're a POSER.

I don't like Mecca anymore than the next guy but your the dumbshit in this argument, not him. Herm Edwards is a shit coach.

[DaneMcCloud]

I don't like Mecca anymore than the next guy but your the dumbshit in this argument, not him. Herm Edwards is a shit coach.

Prove it.

And FWIW, you're a fucking retard as well

[Mecca]

Yes I'm a poser that's it you nailed it, Herm is obviously a very good coach just no one sees that but the keen eye of a very few..

I'm sure a man with a 53-72 record that's a 430 win percentage by the way, is an awesome coach. Not to mention 14-31 since he's been with the Chiefs for a whopping 326 win percentage.

Lets discuss how horrible he is at clock management, or how his teams even when good start seasons slow due to not being prepared. Lets talk about how he can't make an adjustment because he's a hot air preacher coach and not a guy who knows jack about x's and o's.

Lets talk about his love for running guys like Curtis Martin and Larry Johnson into the ground, both great moves.

But yea I'm just a poser, Dane is wise and knows that Herm is an awesome coach that knows what he's doing.

Go ahead Dane think what you want, call me names I really could careless what a dude on a forum thinks of me, but now I can see why some become annoyed with you. Disagree with me all you want but there is 0 need for you to turn into a whining child that didn't get his way.

[Chris Meck]

Herm is, by definition basically, a slightly above average coach.

Sorry, it's true. He's built playoff teams. 'tis true.

Does that mean he's awesome?

No. My personal biggest problem with him is clock management. Seriously, dude. What the fuck?

But, in the whole great scheme of things, he's not that bad.

Chris

[ChiefGator]

I don't really even need Herm to be gone, personally. It's the coaches under him that he will need to let go. Hopefully a new GM, if willing to keep Herm, will force him to fire Gunther (sorry, love ya, but it ain't working anymore) and Krumrie (sp?).

[DaneMcCloud]

Yes I'm a poser that's it you nailed it

Lets talk about his love for running guys like Curtis Martin and Larry Johnson into the ground, both great moves.

But yea I'm just a poser, Dane is wise and knows that Herm is an awesome coach that knows what he's doing.

Go ahead Dane think what you want, call me names I really could careless what a dude on a forum thinks of me, but now I can see why some become annoyed with you.

Well first off, Martin had more carries under Parcells and Groh than Herm.

Look it up.

Secondly, you're stating that Herm isn't a "good" coach. That's fucking ludicrous. He took 4 teams out of 6 to the playoffs. If you think the 2007 or 2008 Chiefs should have made the playoffs and that Herm somehow failed the franchise, you're a fucking idiot.

Great? No, not to this point.

But it's fucking ridiculous to state that he's not a good coach.

Norv Turner sucks.

Herm would coach that team to 10-6 each and every year.

[Mecca]

Herm is, by definition basically, a slightly above average coach.

Sorry, it's true. He's built playoff teams. 'tis true.

Does that mean he's awesome?

No. My personal biggest problem with him is clock management. Seriously, dude. What the fuck?

But, in the whole great scheme of things, he's not that bad.

Chris

Ok what playoff team did he "build" the Jets had alot of players when he took that job...he actually hurt them because they were a 3-4 team and he made them switch to his beloved cover 2.

[DaneMcCloud]

Ok what playoff team did he "build" the Jets had alot of players when he took that job...he actually hurt them because they were a 3-4 team and he made them switch to his beloved cover 2.


So basically what you're saying is that Herm, regardless of his record in New York or KC, is a piece of shit?

No, the piece of shit is you.

Poser.

[Mecca]

How old did you say you were Dane 13?

[DaneMcCloud]

How old did you say you were Dane 13?

Nice response.

Again, why don't you go ahead and list "good" coaches for us, "Mecca".

Or are you incapable of doing any research or giving us a response?

Scared?

[Mecca]

Obviously Dane I should dance for you like a trained monkey....

You need to chill the fuck out so you don't agree with me, I'd love to see you flip out over something stupid in life like that.

[the Talking Can]

this article makes clear how terrible Carl and the true fans "win now" bullcrap has been to this franchise...

[oaklandhater]

Obviously Dane I should dance for you like a trained monkey....

You need to chill the **** out so you don't agree with me, I'd love to see you flip out over something stupid in life like that.

Dane reminds me of the that guy from family guy wanting to fight about anything and everything

[InChiefsHeaven]

Good Lord y'all...I love it when the Planet goes all Jr. High... :rolleyes:

[BigRock]

Ok what playoff team did he "build" the Jets had alot of players when he took that job...

If you compare the roster of the team Herm took over in NY and the roster of his 2004 playoff team, there are about 9 players who make both lists. Surely you are aware of this.

[mikey23545]

So basically what you're saying is that Herm, regardless of his record in New York or KC, is a piece of shit?

No, the piece of shit is you.

Poser.

Rep for you, Dane, for seeing right through that basement-dwelling, telemarketing piece of shit...

[jjjayb]

Prove it.

And FWIW, you're a ****ing retard as well

Score board dick head. How many games has he won since he's been here? How many games have we lost because of his poor game management? Do you play in the special olympics? Having to prove Herm is a bad coach is like having to prove the sky is blue. All you have to do is open your eyes and look. Is that too hard even for such a all powerful all knowing bigshot as yourself? Get over yourself.

[the Talking Can]

herm embarrassed us with veterans when played to lose against the Colts in the playoffs, and he embarrassed us with rookies when he played to lose against the Chargers...

Herm has not changed

[splatbass]

Less than bad is not equal to good.

He's in way over his head with this rebuild. He's a poor judge of talent and an even poorer gameday coach.

He is a poor game day coach, but I think he is a pretty good judge of talent. We have some young talented guys that he has drafted.

[kc rush]

Even if Herm is a "good" coach who can succeed with the right players and assistants, why shouldn't the Chiefs look for a great coach who can succeed despite the players or assistants. Someone who can coach a team up and still win some games despite injuries.

I keep hearing these Herm supporters say he is ok and deserves another year. I personally don't see why, but we now have the perfect opportunity to find someone who may be great.

[Zouk]

I keep hearing these Herm supporters say he is ok and deserves another year. I personally don't see why, but we now have the perfect opportunity to find someone who may be great.


This is almost certainly a moot argument since I think there's like a 2% chance he's coaching the team next year - but if you look at the coaches who have risen to the top in the NFL it's generally not the new hotshot assistant. It's guys like Belichick, Dungy, and Coughlin who have proven they can take teams to the playoffs in the past. Then when the situation becomes right - after they've been a "good" but not "great" coach for 5 years or more according to the pundits - they elevate to the next level. Herm's resume of making the playoffs regularly with very mediocre rosters (anyone remember making the playoffs with James Reed and Ron Edwards as the starting defensive tackles?) shows me he can be in this group.

I know it's an opinion held by .000000000000000001% of the world - but contrary opinions are often right particularly in the NFL. I remember the reputation Belichick had when he was fired from Cleveland. And I knew what his resume really was and that he would have a lot of success if someone was smart enough to give him another chance.

This is why I don't get excited about the Tony Sparanos and John Harbaughs of the world. They are both doing great jobs this year - but until I see them do it 3 or 4 times, they don't rise to the level I'm describing. Guys like John Fox and Andy Reid do - but there are less than 10 of those guys on the planet. I think Herm is one.

[el borracho]

53-72, with an eye for talent like Hali, Pollard and McBride, a proclivity for archaic football philosophies and terrible game day decision-making... yep, you're gone, Herm! Enjoy your last two games as an NFL head coach.

[BigChiefFan]

It's going to be epic when Herm gets his ass kicked the remaining games.

[FringeNC]

We may be about to find out what the rest of the league thinks about Herm --

My predictions:

1) New GM fires Herm
2) No other GM in the league hires Herm as HC

If so, Herm defenders will look rather foolish.

[KC Jones]

Herm is, by definition basically, a slightly above average coach.

Sorry, it's true. He's built playoff teams. 'tis true.

Does that mean he's awesome?

No. My personal biggest problem with him is clock management. Seriously, dude. What the ****?

But, in the whole great scheme of things, he's not that bad.

Chris

this.

I think Herm is capable of doing a decent job rebuilding, and IF he's around next year I suspect the team will do quite a bit better. We lost a lot of close games this year and I think the roster will improve in the offseason. Not to mention we play in the weakest division. We certainly have less holes than we did going into this last year.

However, it's a question of what you are rebuilding towards. Herm just screws up too much in game management - and that more than anything will keep him from building a contender. He's also doesn't seem to be much of an X's and O's guy. Gailey has him covered on offense - but I don't believe in Gun has what it takes anymore.

[crazycoffey]

You lost me on Herms not a bad coach...

It's funny to still see a few Herm supporters around.


I didn't say he was good or bad. Don't put words in my mouth, nancy.

[el borracho]

He's not saying imposed. Dammit why are you so fuggin negative all the freakin time? Clark is going to tell the new GM that Herm had so much to do with where the chiefs are. if the the new GM is the one that wins clark over and says he'll only take the job if he hires his coach, than herm will be gone.

If what really happened behind the closed doors reflect what this article reflects and the new GM prospect sees it that way, herm may stay. He is not a Bad coach, we could do sooooo much worse. But the absolute worst thing that could happen is herm be forced on a new GM or forced out, just because of a new GM. Herm is building something and we all have to realize the good of that, even if we aren't totally on board (as fans)

Your first post in this thread.

[HemiEd]

He had been speaking with Hunt about an overhaul, and Hunt was on board. Edwards couldn’t get Peterson’s blessing, so he got the blessing of the only man in the organization more powerful than the Chiefs’ president/general manager/CEO.

Kind of fits with my perception of Herm, going over his bosses head and backstabbing him. The guy that hired him.
Always throwing other's under the bus, always.

[BigChiefFan]

Kind of fits with my perception of Herm, going over his bosses head and backstabbing him. The guy that hired him.
Always throwing other's under the bus, always.That's how I see him, too. A bullshitter deluxe. The guy that toots his own horn. Enjoy your last few games as a Head Coach in the NFL, Herm.

[HemiEd]

We may be about to find out what the rest of the league thinks about Herm --

My predictions:

1) New GM fires Herm
2) No other GM in the league hires Herm as HC

If so, Herm defenders will look rather foolish.

The media loves the clown, so get ready to see him become a regular talking head.

[crazycoffey]

Your first post in this thread.

He's not, but I like arguing with Mecca, it's fun....

[Ebolapox]

jesus, why is it that every thread (well, almost every) that dane posts in turns into a gigantic pissing match? god, calm the fuck down.

[the Talking Can]

jesus, why is it that every thread (well, almost every) that dane posts in turns into a gigantic pissing match? god, calm the **** down.

i assume he was an only child used to stomping his feet until he got what he wanted....

[Zouk]

We may be about to find out what the rest of the league thinks about Herm --

My predictions:

1) New GM fires Herm
2) No other GM in the league hires Herm as HC

If so, Herm defenders will look rather foolish.

No we won't. You can't hire a head coach after consecutive 2 to 4 win years - PR won't allow it. He needs to build his career back up and he might get a chance in 3-5 years. That's what happened with Coughlin and Belichick.

I think Herm may just do media, collect his full Chiefs salary next year, then look for assistant jobs in 2010.

[Saccopoo]

I don't really even need Herm to be gone, personally. It's the coaches under him that he will need to let go. Hopefully a new GM, if willing to keep Herm, will force him to fire Gunther (sorry, love ya, but it ain't working anymore) and Krumrie (sp?).

It's not Gunther that's not working anymore, it's Herm forcing the Cover Two on this defense when the Cover Two is now a gimmickey defense that has the book written on it in the hands of every offensive coordinator. The new(er) offensively geared rules allowing receivers more freedom have rendered this defense worthless by any stretch of the imagination. Look at the teams running it - including Kansas City and Detroit. And the only reason that Chicago is marginally sucessful at it is that they have Urlacher - who is the best middle linebacker in football. Herms continued reliance on this broken and worthless defense has doomed the Chiefs, and hopefully doomed Herm.

I've always respected Gunther's "mad scientist" approach to defense - the blitzes, stunts, etc. But you can't do any of that in a cover two, especially one with basically a rookie/second year defensive line and a non-existent middle linebacking core. Gunther's defenses have always had great success, but this isn't Gunthers defense - it's Herms. And the Cover Two DOES NOT WORK in today's NFL. Period.

That's one thing about Herm in terms of him not being a "good" head coach. (Which is his overall loack of vision and understanding on the playing field.) Another is poor clock management. Another is his overly conservative mindset, particularly on offense. Another is continued reliance on Thigpen. (Who most likely wouldn't be starting on 99% of current D1 programs.) The guy might be a nice guy, but he isn't a starting quarterback in the NFL. (Although, I would like to see him utilized much like Randal-el was at Pittsburgh - I think he would be very capable in that regard.) Another of Herm's failings at being a head coach is maintaining the assistant head coach status of Dick Curl. The continued power struggle that the offensive coordinator must have with him in Herms front left pocket must be maddening. And these are just a few things. I like Herm. I think he's a decent guy. I think he'll make a very good college head coach. But he is not nfl head coaching material in my opinion.

[ChiefsCountry]

Herm needs to go to the college ranks. His love of young guys, control freak, personality all would make him a hell of a college coach. He could easily be like Pete Carroll or Nick Saban.

[Reerun_KC]

I didn't say he was good or bad. Don't put words in my mouth, nancy.

I will put words in your mouth...

And they should say something like, "Mr Reerun would you like some more Jim Beam black and another fine cigar?"

[doomy3]

We may be about to find out what the rest of the league thinks about Herm --

My predictions:

1) New GM fires Herm
2) No other GM in the league hires Herm as HC

If so, Herm defenders will look rather foolish.



And if that doesn't happen, does that make you look rather foolish?

Or if that happens, then of course Clark "made" the new GM keep him, so Clark becomes the dumbass.

The cycle is hilarious, really.

[FringeNC]

And if that doesn't happen, does that make you look rather foolish?

Or if that happens, then of course Clark "made" the new GM keep him, so Clark becomes the dumbass.

The cycle is hilarious, really.

If Clark hires someone extremely competent like Pioli, and Herm is retained, then yes, it does make the Herm bashers less credible. Of course, the reverse is true, also.

[Lzen]

Less than bad is not equal to good.

He's in way over his head with this rebuild. He's a poor judge of talent and an even poorer gameday coach.

Now wait a minute. Herm is a lot of things but I don't agree that being a poor judge of talent is one of them. Brandon Flowers? Brandon Albert? Jamal Charles? I could go on and on. That comment is simply not true.

[doomy3]

Now wait a minute. Herm is a lot of things but I don't agree that being a poor judge of talent is one of them. Brandon Flowers? Brandon Albert? Jamal Charles? I could go on and on. That comment is simply not true.


People ignore all those guys, and bash him because he hasn't hit on EVERY SINGLE draft pick. They'll point out guys like Hali and Pollard, who or course are still very young, but say that he wiffed on those picks so he can't judge talent. I mean, other teams obviously hit on EVERY pick they make. Hopefully we can get one of those guys.

[Reerun_KC]

Now wait a minute. Herm is a lot of things but I don't agree that being a poor judge of talent is one of them. Brandon Flowers? Brandon Albert? Jamal Charles? I could go on and on. That comment is simply not true.

And you could go on and on about the players he has drafted in all rounds that havent panned out...

its 50/50 JUST LIKE 90% OF THE NFL COACHES IN THE NFL. Herm is an average drafter in the NFL, like so many before and many after him. He is not the end all of be all in the draft..

If he was, then talent would eventually trumph his stupidity and he would have won a superbowl by now...

[crazycoffey]

I will put words in your mouth...

And they should say something like, "Mr Reerun would you like some more Jim Beam black and another fine cigar?"

I'm holding on to one more year!!! It could happen, it ain't over yet, and ahhh shit - what kind of stoogie do you want and I'll need a shipping address......

[Brock]

He's been far better than Dick Vermeil in the draft, and that's about it.

[triple]

He's been far better than Dick Vermeil in the draft, and that's about it.

average at best.

it probably has more to do with Carl's role in the draft being reduced than it does with Edwards being some kind of draft guru

[Lzen]

....Look at the teams running it - including Kansas City and Detroit. And the only reason that Chicago is marginally sucessful at it is that they have Urlacher - who is the best middle linebacker in football....

.... And the Cover Two DOES NOT WORK in today's NFL. Period.

Didn't Indy just win a Super Bowl with the cover 2 a couple of years ago? Tampa still runs it. You're wrong about that. The cover 2 has been around for decades, not just a couple of years. I will admit that I think Gun may be handcuffed by Herm. But I don't agree that the cover 2 does not work. That is simply a ridiculous statement.

[Micjones]

Regular season 53-72-0
Postseason 2-4
Career record 55-76-0

= GOOD COACH?

Got it.

[Lzen]

And you could go on and on about the players he has drafted in all rounds that havent panned out...

its 50/50 JUST LIKE 90% OF THE NFL COACHES IN THE NFL. Herm is an average drafter in the NFL, like so many before and many after him. He is not the end all of be all in the draft..

If he was, then talent would eventually trumph his stupidity and he would have won a superbowl by now...

Actually, I would say that he is a good talent evaluator. Not great, just good. I don't think he is average. Now I do think that he is in way over his head as far as being a head coach in the NFL. And for some reason, his teams seem to have lots of injuries every year. Those are the main reasons that I want him gone.