NFL Advisory Board says Sanchez is a 2nd Rounder?

[Chiefnj2]

according to Pete Carroll, Sanchez's draft evaluation ranked him as a 2nd rounder.

15-Jan-09In strong disagreement
Carroll reveals why he disagrees with Sanchez’s decision to turn pro early


By Ben Malcolmson
USCRipsIt
PeteCarroll.com


After days of deliberation, Coach Pete Carroll and Mark Sanchez agreed to disagree.

But that definitely doesn’t mean Carroll is content with Sanchez’s decision to forgo his senior season and declare for the NFL Draft.

Carroll fleshed out his disagreement with Sanchez’s decision during a passionate exclusive interview with USCRipsIt about an hour after the quarterback’s announcement on Thursday morning.

“The facts are so strong against this decision,” Carroll said. “After analyzing all the information, the truth is there — he should’ve stayed for another year.”

Carroll cited a study that shows 62 percent of underclassmen quarterbacks who declare early for the Draft eventually don’t pan out in the NFL. He also pointed to Sanchez’s NFL Draft evaluation, which projected Sanchez as a second-round selection.

“Mark’s chance to increase his value and become the top player in college football next year would have been worth $10-$20 million or more — likely more,” Carroll said. “One more year of running a team is almost priceless, so he lost the chance to fully prepare himself and become the very best he could be before going to the NFL.

“That’s why there’s a 62 percent failure rate for underclassmen quarterbacks.”

During the press conference, Sanchez repeatedly referred to achieving a lifelong dream as to one of the reasons he made this decision.

“We have always been in full support of Mark pursuing his dream,” Carroll said, “he just should have postponed realizing his dream another 12 months.”

Carroll stressed that his advice to Sanchez throughout the last two weeks had the quarterback’s interests in mind, not his team’s.

“I’m trying to help him be the best he can be, and that would’ve been to stay in school another year and increase his value,” Carroll said. “The facts are there. And he knew all of it, but that’s what he wanted to do it, so we wish him the best.”

Carroll wasn’t alone in his disagreement.

“His family didn’t want it and everybody else told him he should’ve stayed,” Carroll said. “Also, he let go of the opportunity to affect the people around the university and the community, something that would’ve been unforgettable.”

Although he remained strong in his disagreement, Carroll emphasized that he still supports Sanchez and knows he “will always be a special member of the Trojan family.”

“Even though we disagree, I still support him and we’re going to try to help him in any way we can,” Carroll said. “It’s like a family member — you’re not going to stop loving him just because he makes a bad choice.

“Hopefully he’ll overcome the history of these decisions and the people’s opinions out there and becomes very successful.”

[BigRedChief]

no way he makes it out of the top 10. too much upside.

[KC kid]

according to Pete Carroll, Sanchez's draft evaluation ranked him as a 2nd rounder.

15-Jan-09In strong disagreement
Carroll reveals why he disagrees with Sanchez’s decision to turn pro early


By Ben Malcolmson
USCRipsIt
PeteCarroll.com


After days of deliberation, Coach Pete Carroll and Mark Sanchez agreed to disagree.

But that definitely doesn’t mean Carroll is content with Sanchez’s decision to forgo his senior season and declare for the NFL Draft.

Carroll fleshed out his disagreement with Sanchez’s decision during a passionate exclusive interview with USCRipsIt about an hour after the quarterback’s announcement on Thursday morning.

“The facts are so strong against this decision,” Carroll said. “After analyzing all the information, the truth is there — he should’ve stayed for another year.”

Carroll cited a study that shows 62 percent of underclassmen quarterbacks who declare early for the Draft eventually don’t pan out in the NFL. He also pointed to Sanchez’s NFL Draft evaluation, which projected Sanchez as a second-round selection.

“Mark’s chance to increase his value and become the top player in college football next year would have been worth $10-$20 million or more — likely more,” Carroll said. “One more year of running a team is almost priceless, so he lost the chance to fully prepare himself and become the very best he could be before going to the NFL.

“That’s why there’s a 62 percent failure rate for underclassmen quarterbacks.”

During the press conference, Sanchez repeatedly referred to achieving a lifelong dream as to one of the reasons he made this decision.

“We have always been in full support of Mark pursuing his dream,” Carroll said, “he just should have postponed realizing his dream another 12 months.”

Carroll stressed that his advice to Sanchez throughout the last two weeks had the quarterback’s interests in mind, not his team’s.

“I’m trying to help him be the best he can be, and that would’ve been to stay in school another year and increase his value,” Carroll said. “The facts are there. And he knew all of it, but that’s what he wanted to do it, so we wish him the best.”

Carroll wasn’t alone in his disagreement.

“His family didn’t want it and everybody else told him he should’ve stayed,” Carroll said. “Also, he let go of the opportunity to affect the people around the university and the community, something that would’ve been unforgettable.”

Although he remained strong in his disagreement, Carroll emphasized that he still supports Sanchez and knows he “will always be a special member of the Trojan family.”

“Even though we disagree, I still support him and we’re going to try to help him in any way we can,” Carroll said. “It’s like a family member — you’re not going to stop loving him just because he makes a bad choice.

“Hopefully he’ll overcome the history of these decisions and the people’s opinions out there and becomes very successful.”

I think he is a late first early second as well

[FringeNC]

Evidently, Sanchez's advisor disagreed with that assessment, or else Sanchez obviously would have stayed in school.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Evidently, Sanchez's advisor disagreed with that assessment, or else Sanchez obviously would have stayed in school.

Exactly. Apparently, so does everyone else, as he's been pegged as a Top10 pick by everyone who has expressed an opinion on the subject. Christ, even Kiper thinks there's a good chance that he won't fall past us.

I've always wondered who exactly is on this "advisory committee."

[BigChiefFan]

In a weak-ass, QB class, with the league being devoid of QB talent on some rosters, I think some team will pull the trigger earlier than that.

[Hootie]

fine...

Monroe 3rd, Sanchez in the middle of the 1st when we trade up!

[DeezNutz]

This confirms my evaluation of him as a 5th-round talent.

Too many Ryan Leafs out there to risk a first-day pick.

[OnTheWarpath15]

This confirms my evaluation of him as a 5th-round talent.

LMAO.

I like the new you.

[Bowser]

The Alex Smith of the 2009 draft class?

[Zouk]

I've always wondered who exactly is on this "advisory committee."

I've heard it's a consortium of 5 anonymous personnel directors and GMs. I'm not sure if the membership rotates.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It's a consortium of personnel directors and GMs from 5 anonymous NFL teams.

Does it change every year, or it is the same guys every year?

[Chiefnj2]

Exactly. Apparently, so does everyone else, as he's been pegged as a Top10 pick by everyone who has expressed an opinion on the subject. Christ, even Kiper thinks there's a good chance that he won't fall past us.

I've always wondered who exactly is on this "advisory committee."

From 2006 - The NFL has established a "College Advisory Board" to help underclassmen determined their draft status. The advisory board, which is chaired by Polian, consists of eight to 10 NFL general managers and player personnel directors.

More recent:

"You may personally request information from the NFL about your potential draft status without jeopardizing your eligibility. The NFL has a College Advisory Committee, which is comprised of 12 general managers/personnel directors of NFL clubs and the directors of the NFL's two scouting combines. Under this program student-athletes that are at least three years out of high school, may receive a general assessment of their draft potential. The committee will provide the player its best estimate of the highest round in which he has the potential to be drafted. "

[Otter]

no way he makes it out of the top 10. too much upside.

Uh, no.

Late 2nd or early 3rd.

[Ultra Peanut]

Didn't the same advisory board grade Tebow out as a late first rounder?

[OnTheWarpath15]

From 2006 - The NFL has established a "College Advisory Board" to help underclassmen determined their draft status. The advisory board, which is chaired by Polian, consists of eight to 10 NFL general managers and player personnel directors.

So it's anonymous - there's no way to know if the fucksticks up in Detroit or Cincinnati are on the panel, or if it's stocked with guys like Pioli, Newsome, etc.

[raybec 4]

Do they advise these guys of their "value" or where they are likely to actually go? Not always the same thing.

[DeezNutz]

Didn't the same advisory board grade Tebow out as a late first rounder?

As a TE/RT.

Who can fucking jump pass like a mofo, by the way.

[Zouk]

So it's anonymous - there's no way to know if the ****sticks up in Detroit or Cincinnati are on the panel, or if it's stocked with guys like Pioli, Newsome, etc.

It's not about who's right in being a good player. Then Brady would have received a projection of Hall of Fame. It's a projection of where the majority NFL opinion is and the committee is appropriate for that.

I guess the 5 I heard is wrong and it's 12 as ChiefNJ posted.

[DeezNutz]

So it's anonymous - there's no way to know if the ****sticks up in Detroit or Cincinnati are on the panel, or if it's stocked with guys like Pioli, Newsome, etc.

This might not happen at all, but I wonder if any of these sources have ever been known to sand bag a player? Talk down his value in hopes that perception causes him to slip. Probably not...might cause someone not to enter at all.

But the MLB draft has something similar when agents talk about ridiculous contract expectations to make the small fish turn away so that a top prospect slips to a bigger market team. After drafting said player, all of a sudden the huge demands disappear.

[Chiefnj2]

So it's anonymous - there's no way to know if the ****sticks up in Detroit or Cincinnati are on the panel, or if it's stocked with guys like Pioli, Newsome, etc.

Does it matter? It is 12 GMs/Personnel guys including Polian (presuming he still has the chair). It is composed of about a third of the guys that make the actual decisions. I'd imagine that certain teams wouldn't be involved because there is so much turnover within the organization.

[OnTheWarpath15]

This might not happen at all, but I wonder if any of these sources have ever been known to sand bag a player? Talk down his value in hopes that perception causes him to slip. Probably not...

But the MLB draft has something similar when agents talk about ridiculous contract expectations to make the small fish turn away so that a top prospect slips to a bigger market team. After drafting said player, all of a sudden the huge demands disappear.

I doubt they all-out sand bag a guy, but this has me wondering...

A 1/3 of the league's GM's are part of this panel.

How are they supposed to give honest advice without tipping their own hand to the other 11 GM involved as to what they think of the player?

[Hootie]

lets see...

Sanchez: Plus size, arm, accuracy...does he have poise? I don't know...but he put on QUITE the display at the Rose Bowl.

I'd be ok with Sanchez at #3...and I'd be ok with trading our 2nd and next year's first to move up into the middle-late 1st round to nab him there...

[DeezNutz]

I doubt they all-out sand bag a guy, but this has me wondering...

A 1/3 of the league's GM's are part of this panel.

How are they supposed to give honest advice without tipping their own hand to the other 11 GM involved as to what they think of the player?

Firing squad logic. No one knows for sure who killed the guy, except everyone knows the stink in the room is coming from Detroit.

[Chiefnj2]

I doubt they all-out sand bag a guy, but this has me wondering...

A 1/3 of the league's GM's are part of this panel.

How are they supposed to give honest advice without tipping their own hand to the other 11 GM involved as to what they think of the player?

It could be anonymous where each GM enters the data into a computer and after all grades are received the computer spits out the projection with the GMs seeing each other's grades.

[talastan]

If he falls to the late first or second, I'd make a play for him. As for #3 overall, I don't know. I'd prefer to pick up Everette Brown or trade down. JMO though, they're paying Pioli the millions to make this decision.

[DeezNutz]

If he falls to the late first or second, I'd make a play for him. As for #3 overall, I don't know. I'd prefer to pick up Everette Brown or trade down. JMO though, they're paying Pioli the millions to make this decision.

That's not you in your avi, then?

[Ultra Peanut]

Sanchez: Plus size, arm, accuracy...does he have poise? It confuses me. He has touch, accuracy, poise, good mechanics, and he comes from a pro-style offense... it seems like experience is the big thing people use to try to downgrade him, but why does he need another year if he's already shown so many great qualities? It's not like we'll be asking him to lead us to the Super Bowl this year.

[RustShack]

The Alex Smith of the 2009 draft class?

No Bradford didn't come out.

[beach tribe]

It could be anonymous where each GM enters the data into a computer and after all grades are received the computer spits out the projection with the GMs seeing each other's grades.

I would think it's anonymous. The GMs probably never even speak to each other about it.

[Chiefnj2]

By the end of April we'll know if Sanchez was incredibly smart or unbelievably stupid.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Firing squad logic. No one knows for sure who killed the guy, except everyone knows the stink in the room is coming from Detroit.

LMAO

[blueballs]

Didn't I read on here
the Pioli way is not to take a QB that high
and stay out of the top 10 if you can

[MIAdragon]

Man are they HIGH!?!?

[El Jefe]

Uh, no.

Late 2nd or early 3rd.

ROFL I hope your joking, or you're dumb.

[Mr. Laz]

somewhere mecca sits alone ......... sobbing

[Mr. Laz]

ROFL I hope your joking, or you're dumb.
so you're claiming that you know more than the NFL advisers the USC uses?

[bkkcoh]

I think he would be a steal in the 2nd round.

[Fritz88]

Will consider him if he falls to the 3rd round.

[Hootie]

I think he would be a steal in the 2nd round.

No way!

[RustShack]

What are the chances of James Laurenitus falling to the second round? Right now ESPN has him ranked at 22 and I don't see him as the type of guy who will light up the combine.

[Hootie]

so basically the Pioli way is to draft a bunch of white guys!

I'm down...

[Brock]

so basically the Pioli way is to draft a bunch of white guys!

I'm down...

There are people who have made that observation about the Patriots. The racial makeup of the team and things like that.

[SAUTO]

so you're claiming that you know more than the NFL advisers the USC uses?

sanchez IMO made a decision based on the fact that with mccoy and bradford returning next years draft will have more QBs available so this year he will have less competition

[Mizzou_8541]

I think he is a late first early second as well

yeah, yeah....me too! :rolleyes:

[Valiant]

Evidently, Sanchez's advisor disagreed with that assessment, or else Sanchez obviously would have stayed in school.

Usually when Underclassmen QB's come out they do so because teams are looking at them early on or they need money.. Or their agent was a dick and lied..

[Toad]

Sounds like to me Pete Carroll has some sour grapes working.

[KCUnited]

So his college coach doesn't think he's ready and an NFL advisory board apparently has him ranked as a 2nd rounder, but we should take him with the 3rd. Pete Carroll is sour grapes and the advisory board is made up of NFL GM rejects.

Bring on a poop thread or something sensible. Pink Lady apples give me gas.

[RINGLEADER]

no way he makes it out of the top 10. too much upside.

Friendly wager?

[chief52]

Carrol not backing down.

I really think the earliest Sanchez goes is the bottom of the first round, more likely second. Now do not start flaming me, that is just what I feel and I do not profess to know it all. It will be very interesting to watch.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-usc-football17-2009jan17,0,7480322.story


Genaro Molina / Los Angeles Times
USC Coach Pete Carroll addresses the media during the news conference
January 17, 2009


USC Coach Pete Carroll is not backing down. Not much, anyway.

A day after his agitated appearance at quarterback Mark Sanchez's news conference, during which the junior announced he would make himself available for the NFL draft, Carroll stood by his tone and his explanation of why Sanchez was making a mistake by not exhausting his eligibility.


But he also said he might have left something out. "If it didn't come across clearly how I feel about Mark, I'd like to say that Mark was a great football player for us and was on course to be as good as anyone we ever had," Carroll said. "We loved him, he was a great, terrific kid in this program, and we are going to miss him."

Sanchez and Georgia's Matt Stafford are regarded as the top two quarterbacks in the April draft. Carroll reiterated Friday he would help and support Sanchez as he went through the draft process.

But Carroll also explained that since arriving at USC before the 2001 season, he has approached his coaching responsibility "from the perspective of how a parent would look after their kid going through here."

"If your child decides to do something that you know isn't what you agree with, I think you bag out on him to not show him your true self, for what you believe," he said. "That's the bottom line here. And I don't mind standing for that."

Carroll said he would have said the same things he said at the news conference if his own son was the player in question.

"I'm the football coach," he said, chuckling. "If he's playing for me I would have done exactly that."

So, no regrets?

"No. Maybe I could have sat down for it," he said. "Or they could have had the podium there so I could have stood up. . . . I was ready to battle."

[DTLB58]

Although he remained strong in his disagreement, Carroll emphasized that he still supports Sanchez and knows he “will always be a special member of the Trojan family.”
”

ROFL

[chief52]

ROFL
It is kinda old now, but I remember years ago going to a Stanford/USC game. The Stanford students had a big sign that said,

" Trojans burst under pressure. " Cracked me up...

[Chiefnj2]

sanchez IMO made a decision based on the fact that with mccoy and bradford returning next years draft will have more QBs available so this year he will have less competition

I agree. I think he was afraid he could slip behind Bradford, Tebow, McCoy and a host of darkhorses like FeFevour (sp) and Rusty Smith.

[siberian khatru]

ROFL

Well, Sanchez does seem to have gotten some extra ribbing from Carroll.

[BigMeatballDave]

Uh, no.

Late 2nd or early 3rd.
ROFL

[PHOG]

Well, Sanchez does seem to have gotten some extra ribbing from Carroll.

:thumb:

Can anyone imagine the possible headlines when he becomes a starting QB?

LMAO

[OnTheWarpath15]

I agree. I think he was afraid he could slip behind Bradford, Tebow, McCoy and a host of darkhorses like FeFevour (sp) and Rusty Smith.

ROFL

[SAUTO]

I agree. I think he was afraid he could slip behind Bradford, Tebow, McCoy and a host of darkhorses like FeFevour (sp) and Rusty Smith.

i doubt it but some teams are stupid

[Buzzsaw]

By the end of April we'll know if Sanchez was incredibly smart or unbelievably stupid.

Not really. Where he gets drafted and the amount of the contract he receives doesn't (or shouldn't) determine if this was the right decision.

3 years or so from now we'll find out if he made the right decision. I like Sanchez a lot but the two biggest factors that determine if a QB is going to be successful are games started and completion percentage. Sanchez only has 16 starts (I believe?) so that's definitely something to consider.

And if he's the real deal, he'll be getting more on his second contract than his rookie contract anyways.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

The Alex Smith of the 2009 draft class?

Tebow and Bradford are going back to school. Sanchez is going to be a stud. I'd rather have him than Stafford.

[Rigodan]

I think Sanchez should be a top 10 pick too. Either way this thread has to be bumped on draft day.

[Geason Noceur]

Sanchez made a good decision. He knows that he's not going beat Stafford for the No. 1 spot, but he also knows that there's at least two teams in the top 10 that need QBs. Stafford will probably save him from ending up in Detroit while he'll still be taken in the top 10 and by a better team than the Lions.

[Mecca]

Sanchez is locked at worst as the 2nd QB in the draft which makes him a high pick...the NFL committee always seems to give guys overly low grades when they ask, it's like they purposely tell them a lower round like they don't want them to come out.

They told DaJuan Morgan he was like a 5th round pick.

[Mecca]

I agree. I think he was afraid he could slip behind Bradford, Tebow, McCoy and a host of darkhorses like FeFevour (sp) and Rusty Smith.

Are you high...

[eazyb81]

I'm sure it's already been said, but the NFL Draft Advisory Board is very conservative with their draft grades, and they have an incentive to be since they don't want kids declaring because they received a favorable evaluation and then they drop in the draft.

Sanchez won't fall out of the top ten.

[Ultra Peanut]

It seems kind of like the opposite of the NBA people telling six hundred prospects that they're late first-rounders.

[BWillie]

Anyone else shocked that Pete Carroll is making these comments? Just doesn't sound classy to me. He could have left it as "I wish he would have came back, we could have used him for another year. He's a great player, but we wish him luck"

[Geason Noceur]

Anyone else shocked that Pete Carroll is making these comments? Just doesn't sound classy to me. He could have left it as "I wish he would have came back, we could have used him for another year. He's a great player, but we wish him luck"

I don't think he handled the situation well. It's okay that he was honest, but dirty laundry should be kept in house. If he had a problem with Sanchez decision tell him in private instead of ripping him in front of the press. He could take a lesson on how he could have handled the situation from Mark Richt. Richt knew that declaring as a junior is very risky, and he told his players that, but once they made their decisions he supported them in public and didn't turn his back on them. That's how it's supposed to be done. Not to mention that it helps with recruiting.

[Mecca]

Carroll kind of changed his tune after saying he loves Mark and he could sleep in his office if he wanted to and stuff like that.

It's a big mixture of alot of stuff, from hurting his team for next year, to probably feeling like Sanchez didn't listen to him.

[SAUTO]

Carroll kind of changed his tune after saying he loves Mark and he could sleep in his office if he wanted to and stuff like that.

It's a big mixture of alot of stuff, from hurting his team for next year, to probably feeling like Sanchez didn't listen to him.

control freak?

[Mecca]

Most college coaches are...

[Brock]

Carroll kind of changed his tune after saying he loves Mark and he could sleep in his office if he wanted to and stuff like that.

It's a big mixture of alot of stuff, from hurting his team for next year, to probably feeling like Sanchez didn't listen to him.

And not giving a shit about how it affects Sanchez in the draft.

[HC_Chief]

I think Carrol is right. Sanchez should have stayed for his Sr season.

[SAUTO]

Most college coaches are...

yeah and most dont throw out that they think a kid isnt ready when they declare do they? most still put a good face on for the media

[Mecca]

I think Carrol is right. Sanchez should have stayed for his Sr season.

When he goes in the top 10, people won't be saying this....

People will rise and slide from this point on I don't think some are aware that Stafford and Sanchez will do nothing but increase their stock in what happens now.

[RustShack]

I think Carrol is right. Sanchez should have stayed for his Sr season.

Why? He graduates this year and his stock probably wont get any higher.

[Manila-Chief]

sanchez IMO made a decision based on the fact that with mccoy and bradford returning next years draft will have more QBs available so this year he will have less competition

Yes!

Only time will tell if it was a wise decision. But, from where I sit, it seems to be the correct decision. He is projected to be at least the 2nd. QB choosen. Next year there will be 3 QB's ... I believe all 3 are seniors? & thus, will be in the draft ... Sanchez could have a down year ... McCoy & Bradford will likely be even better. Tebow is getting a new QB coach and may demostrate he is a true NFL prospect at QB. Sanchez could fall to #4. I know it's not likely but it's possible.

Yes, had he gone back he may be the overall 1st. pick. (But, it's not impossble for him to be #1 ... Detroit makes the pick. But, he could get hurt and never play in the NFL.

For the comment about him being Leaf ... he does not appear to be a head case. If Leaf was okay between the ears he would be an NFL probowler. Leaf had the talent just couldn't handle the attitude/mental aspects of the game. Yes, he may be one of those other 1st. round busts.

[eazyb81]

I bet Carroll told Leinart he should stay for his senior season too.

Don't think for a second that Leinart doesn't regret not coming out after his junior year, and I'm sure he told Sanchez that.

[Ultra Peanut]

Scouts, Inc. Top 10 as of right now:

1. Andre Smith* OT Alabama 98
2. Aaron Curry OLB Wake Forest 98
3. Michael Crabtree** WR Texas Tech 98
4. Mark Sanchez* QB USC 97
5. Matthew Stafford* QB Georgia 96
6. Eugene Monroe OT Virginia 96
7. Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio State 96
8. Aaron Maybin** DE Penn State 96
9. Jeremy Maclin** WR Missouri 95
10. Brian Orakpo DE Texas 95

[ChiefsCountry]

Are you high...

He bashes Sancehz every chance he gets.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Scouts, Inc. Top 10 as of right now:

1. Andre Smith* OT Alabama 98
2. Aaron Curry OLB Wake Forest 98
3. Michael Crabtree** WR Texas Tech 98
4. Mark Sanchez* QB USC 97
5. Matthew Stafford* QB Georgia 96
6. Eugene Monroe OT Virginia 96
7. Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio State 96
8. Aaron Maybin** DE Penn State 96
9. Jeremy Maclin** WR Missouri 95
10. Brian Orakpo DE Texas 95

What?

I've been told the advisory committee only thinks Sanchez is a 2nd round pick.

[DeezNutz]

What?

I've been told the advisory committee only thinks Sanchez is a 2nd round pick.

My scouts are saying that the 4th round is more likely.

[splatbass]

So his college coach doesn't think he's ready and an NFL advisory board apparently has him ranked as a 2nd rounder, but we should take him with the 3rd. Pete Carroll is sour grapes and the advisory board is made up of NFL GM rejects.



The draft experts on CP know more than any of those people. Just ask them. Why the NFL hasn't hired them yet is beyond me....

[Mecca]

The draft experts on CP know more than any of those people. Just ask them. Why the NFL hasn't hired them yet is beyond me....

That board projects guys low...guys have gone as much as 3 and 4 rounds higher than they've been told they would go...

[Halfcan]

Tebow is better-hands down.