So did you actually think smoking bans would end at just buildings?

[kstater]

This is just absurd. This comes on the heels of a $.56 tax last week on top of the federal tax.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=79797



The Little Rock City Parks Commission plans to approve a new policy to ban smoking in city parks and golf courses. That means you'll have to smoke in the parking lot or deal with the consequences.



It will be a policy in the coming months meaning facilities will self enforce it, but if that doesn't work commissioners plan to get an ordinance approved by the board of directors.

The policy will affect all city parks and golf courses. Families enjoying city parks today say they are in favor of the policy because everyone has different health conditions and it would make things easier.

While golfers at Rebsamen Golf Course says it's too invasive. Alan Meyer, explains, "In a restaurant in a confined area I understand, but out in the open it's a little strong it's a little too much as far as I'm concerned."

Meyer says many golfers who normally don't smoke recreationally smoke cigars on the course and if the smoking ban is enforced it will influence where he plays and it can hurt business as a whole.

The policy still has to be approved by the city manager and city attorney. No word yet on the penalties you could face for smoking.

[-King-]

Um, I dont see the big deal. City parks are filled with kids. Do you want your kids to run around in a place where people are smoking all over the place?

[Phobia]

I really don't care about it but if smokers didn't litter nasty butts all over streets, sidewalks, and everywhere else then it would play in their favor a lot more often. I fine my workers $1 per butt I find on the ground at my jobsites.

[el borracho]

Dear smokers,

You stink.



Sincerely,

Everybody.

[MIAdragon]

just wait till they ban smoking in YOUR car.

[kstater]

I really don't care about it but if smokers didn't litter nasty butts all over streets, sidewalks, and everywhere else then it would play in their favor a lot more often. I fine my workers $1 per butt I find on the ground at my jobsites.

Good for you and I commend you for that.

[kstater]

Um, I dont see the big deal. City parks are filled with kids. Do you want your kids to run around in a place where people are smoking all over the place?

I highly doubt someone smoking in a park or on a golf course is going to affect a kid as much as you think it does.

[DenverChief]

Dear smokers,

You stink.



Heart,

Everybody.

FYP

[KCUnited]

Kids still go to parks? Seriously, we'll keep the open air parks smoke free, you keep feeding your kids face at the drive thrus.

[Coltman]

like second hand smoke, but folks this country is going way too far.........same tactics the liberals are using for gun control. Chip away at ones right here and there and the next thing you know that right is gone......If someone wants to poison themselves thats fine, just don't impact me and don't ask for medical aid when your sick.........

[DaKCMan AP]

Good.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

like second hand smoke, but folks this country is going way too far.........same tactics the liberals are using for gun control. Chip away at ones right here and there and the next thing you know that right is gone......If someone wants to poison themselves thats fine, just don't impact me and don't ask for medical aid when your sick.........

Take this shit to DC or shut the fuck up.

[Bugeater]

I really don't care about it but if smokers didn't litter nasty butts all over streets, sidewalks, and everywhere else then it would play in their favor a lot more often.

Uh...not all smokers do that.

But no, I didn't expect it to end at smoking in buildings, the anti smoking nazis won't be happy until I can't smoke in my own home.

[Simplex3]

I really don't care about it but if smokers didn't litter nasty butts all over streets, sidewalks, and everywhere else then it would play in their favor a lot more often.

I just love it when they bounce off my windshield on the highway at night. Note to smokers: It isn't the butts that make your car smell like wet ass. It's the actual act of smoking the cigarettes.

[Mr. Laz]

i understand the need to ban smoking inside .... but outside???


that's kinda lame

[Skip Towne]

I read somewhere that many smoking bans are being suspended due to the poor economy. No sense in running off any more customers than necessary.

[PHOG]

Heaven forbid we let the big factories bellow out all kinds of pollutants, but damn it, my kid just got a whiff of your second hand smoke! :rolleyes: Outside even!

[kstater]

Heaven forbid we let the big factories bellow out all kinds of pollutants, but damn it, my kid just got a whiff of your second hand smoke! :rolleyes: Outside even!

Don't forget ingesting them with lard infused BigMacs.

[beavis]

i understand the need to ban smoking inside .... but outside???


that's kinda lame

It contributes to global warming.

errr something.

[Valiant]

I really don't care about it but if smokers didn't litter nasty butts all over streets, sidewalks, and everywhere else then it would play in their favor a lot more often. I fine my workers $1 per butt I find on the ground at my jobsites.

Yeah that is the only thing that pisses me off.. Fucking smokers throwing their butts on the ground, out the window, everywhere.. Personally I wish they would except pictures of people throwing their cigs out the window while driving as a way to turn them in.. Maybe make it a 500 dollar fine, does not matter if it was you driving or not.. Whoever owns the car gets the fine..

[Phobia]

Uh...not all smokers do that.

But no, I didn't expect it to end at smoking in buildings, the anti smoking nazis won't be happy until I can't smoke in my own home.

Of course not. But enough of them do it that it's huge problem in this country.

[blueballs]

Damn I won't know who to mug first now

[Bugeater]

Of course not. But enough of them do it that it's huge problem in this country.

Well the only way to prevent that is to ban smoking all together. Hell, maybe we should do the same with alcohol because I see a hell of a lot of beer cans/bottles on the side of the road. Also a lot of fast food garbage too, that should probably go as well.

[Nzoner]

Well the only way to prevent that is to ban smoking all together. Hell, maybe we should do the same with alcohol because I see a hell of a lot of beer cans/bottles on the side of the road. Also a lot of fast food garbage too, that should probably go as well.

That's what pissed me off about Arrowhead,I can't sit in my seat in an outdoor stadium and have a smoke but the dipshit drunk behind me can spill a beer down my back because Arrowhead is charging $7 per for that.

[kcfanXIII]

smoking bans are bad for business. when i worked at 54th st, in a town that didn't have a ban(blue springs, while the two closest 54s were in cities with bans(lee's summit and independence. our business went up at least 25%. when the ban took effect in blue springs, business dropped lower than what it was before all this nonsense started. at least in BS you can still smoke in bars.

[penchief]

I really don't care about it but if smokers didn't litter nasty butts all over streets, sidewalks, and everywhere else then it would play in their favor a lot more often. I fine my workers $1 per butt I find on the ground at my jobsites.

Bravo to you. Not only do most smokers feel entitled to pollute other people's breathing spaces, most also feel it is their God given right to throw their nasty butts where ever they choose. And then they act all offended when they're asked to pick them up.

I don't have a problem with people smoking as long as they don't feel it is their right to impose the consequences of their habit onto others.

[kstater]

Bravo to you. Not only do most smokers feel entitled to pollute other people's breathing spaces, most also feel it is their God given right to throw their nasty butts where ever they choose. And then they act all offended when they're asked to pick them up.

I don't have a problem with people smoking as long as they don't feel it is their right to impose the consequences of their habit onto others.

I'm sure you've never dropped on piece of trash on the ground.

So smoking on a 120 acre golf course imposes the consequences of the habit onto others?

[penchief]

I highly doubt someone smoking in a park or on a golf course is going to affect a kid as much as you think it does.

Except when they throw their cigarette butts down where small kids can pick them up. Or mabye communities are getting tired of having to pay their city employees to pick up after smokers.

[DeezNutz]

Except when they throw their cigarette butts down where small kids can pick them up. Or mabye communities are getting tired of having to pay their city employees to pick up after smokers.

Teach the little shits not to mess with the butts. Good advice in many different ways, in fact. If they don't, chalk another one up to natural selection.

City employees having to, gasp, actually clean up? Disturbing indeed.

Look, I don't smoke and I don't particularly like the smell of smoke either. But at this rate we're going to be hiding in our ****ing closets when we want to do anything that might remotely be considered an imposition on others.

The erosion of personal liberties in the country is a ****ing joke. If the government wants its hand in everything, I'd suggest it start by firmly placing said hand in my front pocket and beginning the reach around. That should keep someone busy for a little bit.

Leave me the **** alone. Don't even get me started on seatbelt "laws."

[penchief]

I'm sure you've never dropped on piece of trash on the ground.

So smoking on a 120 acre golf course imposes the consequences of the habit onto others?

Uhh, actually no. I don't litter. Littering is disrespectful, IMO. At some point very early in my life prior to making that judgement I'm sure I did throw a piece of trash on the ground. However, starting as a young child I've made it a habit not to litter.

Most smokers who indisciminately throw their butts on the ground don't do it just occasionally. Most do so nearly every time they smoke. Besides, cigarette butts are alot nastier and carry health considerations. Any time someone feels they have the right to indiscriminately throw their cigarette butts on the ground they are imposing the consequences of their habit onto those who have to clean up after their nastiness.

[penchief]

Teach the little shits not to mess with the butts. Good advice in many different ways, in fact. If they don't, chalk another one up to natural selection.

City employees having to, gasp, actually clean up? Disturbing indeed.

Look, I don't smoke and I don't particularly like the smell of smoke either. But at this rate we're going to be hiding in our ****ing closets.

The erosion of personal liberties in the country is a ****ing joke. If the government wants its hand in everything, I'd suggest it start by firmly placing said hand in my front pocket and beginning the reach around. That should keep someone busy for a little bit.

Leave me the **** alone. Don't even get me started on seatbelt "laws."

Absolutely. But as you know, nothing is childproof. But why place the burden on the persons not smoking. Why shouldn't the smoker refrain from throwing potentially health hazardous litter onto the ground?

Personal liberties are being preserved when public places are protected from cancer causing second hand smoke.

You have the right to smoke all you want as long as you don't impose the consequences of your habit onto others.

[penchief]

smoking bans are bad for business. when i worked at 54th st, in a town that didn't have a ban(blue springs, while the two closest 54s were in cities with bans(lee's summit and independence. our business went up at least 25%. when the ban took effect in blue springs, business dropped lower than what it was before all this nonsense started. at least in BS you can still smoke in bars.

The actual data disputes your claim. In every state that has imposed a ban on smoking in public places businesses have done better. It's a fact.

[DeezNutz]

Absolutely. But as you know, nothing is childproof. But why place the burden on the persons not smoking. Why shouldn't the smoker refrain from throwing potentially health hazardous litter onto the ground?

I'm all for a blanket policy of no littering. Good, smart law that all should follow.

I don't think the problems created by smokers in this regard, however, are much different from those of the general population.

There are responsible and irresponsible examples from both categories. Smokers are generally an easy mark for lawmakers and politicians.

Next up will be the transfat churl, belching his toxic Oreo breath carelessly in public. Numerous children have perished from lingering, stale Oreo breath.

Your edit: This policy has been abused and taken to an extreme. Example: banning smoking in bars. Hello!?! It's a fucking bar. Now, laws prevent smoking in many outdoor public venues. It's a slippery slope. Next, it will be no smoking within X feet of another's property because, you know, that smoke might waft.

And the pussification continues. Participation medals are in the mail.

[penchief]

I'm all for a blanket policy of no littering. Good, smart law that all should follow.

I don't think the problems created by smokers in this regard, however, are much different from those of the general population.

There are responsible and irresponsible examples from both categories. Smokers are generally an easy mark for lawmakers and politicians.

Next up will be the transfat churl, belching his toxic Oreo breath carelessly in public. Numerous children have perished from lingering, stale Oreo breath.

I'd wager that a larger majority of people who smoke will throw their butts on the ground without thinking twice while only a small percentage of the overall population feel it is okay to litter. To most smokers, flicking their butt on the ground is as much a habit as smoking itself. It's the culmination of the ritual.

Personally, I think all smokers should carry an ash tray with them. Throwing their butts on the ground is disrespectful, IMO.

[Demonpenz]

This shit wouldn't happen if obama was a smoker

[StcChief]

most issues now and why they can't smoke.... have been brought on by smokers and businesses (bars/rest) that refused to have adequate ventilation for non-smokers.....

outside regulation is really about butts on ground.

[petegz28]

Um, I dont see the big deal. City parks are filled with kids. Do you want your kids to run around in a place where people are smoking all over the place?

OMFG.....STFU

[Ozarks-Chiefs-Fan]

Bravo to you. Not only do most smokers feel entitled to pollute other people's breathing spaces, most also feel it is their God given right to throw their nasty butts where ever they choose. And then they act all offended when they're asked to pick them up.

I don't have a problem with people smoking as long as they don't feel it is their right to impose the consequences of their habit onto others.

man you get mad when you see a cigarette butt, i bet you go ballistic when you see a bag of trash on the side of the road or a plastic wal mart bag in a tree or broken beer bottles on the shore of the lake.

[dj56dt58]

Yeah that is the only thing that pisses me off.. Fucking smokers throwing their butts on the ground, out the window, everywhere.. Personally I wish they would except pictures of people throwing their cigs out the window while driving as a way to turn them in.. Maybe make it a 500 dollar fine, does not matter if it was you driving or not.. Whoever owns the car gets the fine..

Driving down the road taking snapshots of people throwing their cigs out the window...what could go wrong?

[penchief]

man you get mad when you see a cigarette butt, i bet you go ballistic when you see a bag of trash on the side of the road or a plastic wal mart bag in a tree or broken beer bottles on the shore of the lake.

I don't get mad. I just think it's disrespectful and inconsiderate. Therefore, I don't do it nor do I think it is okay for others to do it.

[Johnny Vegas]

lets put huge parks and big golf courses next to interstates and freeways and ban smoking.

[KCUnited]

The 1 hour a week I make time to spend with my kids, the last thing I want to put up with after prying them away from their gaming system and forcing them to go outside, is to have cigarette butts all over the ground. My kids deserve better. Don't even get me started on the dog shit laying around.

[RJ]

Unfortunately - or fortunately - we can't have an ordinance against everything that annoys us. And even if we do, that doesn't mean folks will obey them.

Personally, I think the more laws we have the more we despise one another.

Look at that fucker smoking in a public place, he's defying the law, doesn't care about the rest of us. Look at that guy talking on his cell phone while driving......and he's NOT wearing his seat belt. And that neighbor that waters their lawn on the wrong days, and that other one that doesn't pull their weeds, and that sob never recycles a damn thing....I'll turn 'em all in.

An issue under consideration here in New Mexico is texting while driving. Why should that be an issue? WTF aren't people smart enough to figure out for themselves that texting while driving is a totally idiotic and irresponsible thing to do?

We have two problems. People who don't give a shit about others and politicians (spurred on by constituents) who want to legislate the behavior of people who don't give a shit about others. I'm not sure which one is worse.

[DenverChief]

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[EyePod]

I really don't care about it but if smokers didn't litter nasty butts all over streets, sidewalks, and everywhere else then it would play in their favor a lot more often. I fine my workers $1 per butt I find on the ground at my jobsites.

You fine all of them? And I don't think of cigarettes the same as cigars. I don't mind a cigar every once in a while.

[Phobia]

You fine all of them? And I don't think of cigarettes the same as cigars. I don't mind a cigar every once in a while.

No. I find the brand and I trace it back to the worker. I also put the fines in a "lunch fund" so it's not going into my pocket.

I've actually not had to fine anybody more than once since instituting the policy.

[BigRichard]

I'd wager that a larger majority of people who smoke will throw their butts on the ground without thinking twice while only a small percentage of the overall population feel it is okay to litter. To most smokers, flicking their butt on the ground is as much a habit as smoking itself. It's the culmination of the ritual.

Personally, I think all smokers should carry an ash tray with them. Throwing their butts on the ground is disrespectful, IMO.

As DeezNuts has so graciously pointed out, it appears your issue is with littering and not with smokers. That is the only argument they have for banning smoking outside. Therefore maybe they should enforce the litter laws more and they wouldn't have this problem. You don't need more laws you just need to enforce the ones you already have. Not that I think it is relevant, but I am not a smoker myself.

This bullshit is just getting worse and it is all fine until it affects you. I think we should ban bottled water drinkers from any public place. They might leave their filthy contaminated bottles lying around for little kids to pick up. Give me a ****ing break. Deez hit it right on the head when he called it pussification.

[J Diddy]

As DeezNuts has so graciously pointed out, it appears your issue is with littering and not with smokers. That is the only argument they have for banning smoking outside. Therefore maybe they should enforce the litter laws more and they wouldn't have this problem. You don't need more laws you just need to enforce the ones you already have. Not that I think it is relevant, but I am not a smoker myself.

This bullshit is just getting worse and it is all fine until it affects you. I think we should ban bottled water drinkers from any public place. They might leave their filthy contaminated bottles lying around for little kids to pick up. Give me a ****ing break. Deez hit it right on the head when he called it pussification.


I think the real question is "are you little richards brother?"

[Bugeater]

As DeezNuts has so graciously pointed out, it appears your issue is with littering and not with smokers. That is the only argument they have for banning smoking outside. Therefore maybe they should enforce the litter laws more and they wouldn't have this problem. You don't need more laws you just need to enforce the ones you already have. Not that I think it is relevant, but I am not a smoker myself.

This bullshit is just getting worse and it is all fine until it affects you. I think we should ban bottled water drinkers from any public place. They might leave their filthy contaminated bottles lying around for little kids to pick up. Give me a ****ing break. Deez hit it right on the head when he called it pussification.

No, his problem is with smokers, the littering is just a red herring. The real issue is that non-smokers are occasionally annoyed by smokers and they want to impose their will onto them.

[DeezNutz]

No, his problem is with smokers, the littering is just a red herring. The real issue is that non-smokers are occasionally annoyed by smokers and they want to impose their will onto them.

And smokers are an easy mark for lawmakers and politicians.

Next it will be the worthless transfat abusers whom we are "morally obligated" to save from themselves.

And next it will be...

[Phobia]

Here's what I have a problem with. I have a problem with people who are on welfare, living in filth, can't afford transportation, and smoking $5000 worth of cigarettes in a year. I know people like that. I try to encourage people like that to quit the habit and they talk to me like I'm the crazy person.

[Bugeater]

Here's what I have a problem with. I have a problem with people who are on welfare, living in filth, can't afford transportation, and smoking $5000 worth of cigarettes in a year. I know people like that. I try to encourage people like that to quit the habit and they talk to me like I'm the crazy person.
Do you honestly think smoking bans are going to solve that?

[ClevelandBronco]

Take this shit to DC or shut the **** up.

Hey! It's bag-o'-dog-poop boy!

Been killing yourself?

[Phobia]

Do you honestly think smoking bans are going to solve that?

I don't think I ever even implied that. I don't care if people want to smoke but I do think that smokers shouldn't qualify for foodstamps or any other form of government assistance. If you have enough money to pay $5 for a pack of cigarettes then you can afford to feed yourself and your family.

As far as banning smoking in a park, that's up to the voters in that area, I suppose. If the voters in my town voted to ban smoking in the park I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Bugeater]

I don't think I ever even implied that. I don't care if people want to smoke but I do think that smokers shouldn't qualify for foodstamps or any other form of government assistance. If you have enough money to pay $5 for a pack of cigarettes then you can afford to feed yourself and your family.

OK, that's just a completely different issue and I was trying to figure how it fit into the context of this thread. Nevertheless I don't disagree, although cigs are nowhere near $5/pack here, name brands are a little over $3 and you can get generics for well under $3. It still adds up though, no doubt about that.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

It's almost time for the double cheeseburger tax. You heard it here first.........

[DeezNutz]

It's almost time for the double cheeseburger tax. You heard it here first.........

Fat people infringe upon my personal liberties when I'm forced to sit next to them at movies or sporting events or on airplanes.

It's perfectly justifiable to try to correct this. Sin tax on all fatty foods. They kill and endanger children.

Plus, fast food eaters are more likely to throw their fast food trash out car windows. I mean, you have to eat there to have the wrappers, right?

[Valiant]

Driving down the road taking snapshots of people throwing their cigs out the window...what could go wrong?

fixed camera on dash..

[HMc]

I just love it when they bounce off my windshield on the highway at night. Note to smokers: It isn't the butts that make your car smell like wet ass. It's the actual act of smoking the cigarettes.

Um, that's bullshit.

[Valiant]

Um, that's bullshit.

That the butts bounce off the window or the car does not stink if you throw the butts out??

[Miles]

That the butts bounce off the window or the car does not stink if you throw the butts out??

Both are pretty much bullshit and you changed the context of what he was responding to a bit. Old butts and ashes make the interior of a car smell far worse (and dirty) and I don't think I can ever recall actually seeing a butt bounce off my windshield while driving.

[Miles]

As far as banning smoking in a park, that's up to the voters in that area, I suppose. If the voters in my town voted to ban smoking in the park I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I would tend to agree. It's public land and your local representatives/voters can pretty much determine how it is to be used.

[Valiant]

Both are pretty much bullshit and you changed the context of what he was responding to a bit. Old butts and ashes make the interior of a car smell far worse (and dirty) and I don't think I can ever recall actually seeing a butt bounce off my windshield while driving.

I have but I speed and tailgate..

I think one smells like shit(smoking incar) and the other smells like wet shit(leaving it in your car)..

But hey, if you smoke why not throw them in the trash instead of on the road??

[HMc]

That the butts bounce off the window or the car does not stink if you throw the butts out??

that merely smoking in the car causes it to stink of wet carpet (or whatever). That's BS, unless, i guess, you're doing it for multiple hours of the day. but if you wind the front windows a bit (or a lot), the car shouldnt smell of smoke.

if you leave the butts in the car, it's going to stink.

i admit that i might hurl a cigarette butt from the window when the conditions are such that it isnt dangerous.

[HMc]

I would tend to agree. It's public land and your local representatives/voters can pretty much determine how it is to be used.

Really? With what constraints?

what about keeping baseballs out of the park?

what about keeping concealed weapons out of the park?

[Miles]

I have but I speed and tailgate..

I think one smells like shit(smoking incar) and the other smells like wet shit(leaving it in your car)..


Hey you are breaking the laws just like those people that litter with their butts ;)

[Miles]

Really? With what constraints?

what about keeping baseballs out of the park?

what about keeping concealed weapons out of the park?

I honestly don't know the exact process of how local ordinances/laws are determined regarding our parks (whether its put to public vote or as I assume part of what some local officials determine). However the case, its pretty much the same as any governmental decision in that if it's the public that votes its obviously the majority intent and if it's city officials and its unpopular enough the political process with run its course. No different that smoking in bars except this is with pubic land.

I guess I don't see it as any different than a local park having a glass bottles policy or one that prohibits charcoal. If it's public officials and they decide to do something as arbitrary as banning baseballs in local parks than so be it. Let them try and keep their jobs after that.

As far as concealed weapons I also don't know, and it depends of the state, if a concealed permit is fine for a park. Otherwise any other state gun laws will apply.

[penchief]

No, his problem is with smokers, the littering is just a red herring. The real issue is that non-smokers are occasionally annoyed by smokers and they want to impose their will onto them.

My problem is NOT with smoking. As I've said, I believe that smokers have all the right in the world to smoke. My problem is with the ATTITUDE of most smokers. Most believe it is THEIR right to impose the consequences of their habit onto others. Thus, all the whining and bitching about laws that protect non-smokers from cancer causing second hand smoke.

And moreso than non-smokers, smokers act as if it is THEIR right to litter. Too many smokers believe that smoking gives them the right to toss their butts on the ground. The bitching and whining about those of us who think littering is disrespectful is evidence of that.

Why can't smokers just smoke responsibly instead of behaving as if they are being persecuted?

[penchief]

I don't think I ever even implied that. I don't care if people want to smoke but I do think that smokers shouldn't qualify for foodstamps or any other form of government assistance. If you have enough money to pay $5 for a pack of cigarettes then you can afford to feed yourself and your family.

As far as banning smoking in a park, that's up to the voters in that area, I suppose. If the voters in my town voted to ban smoking in the park I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Here's where I'm going to defend smokers. Nicotine is a hell of a drug. It's as addictive as any drug there is. Poorer people are probably more susceptible to starting smoking than are wealthier people. Most people start smoking as youths and once a person is addicted it makes no difference whether or not they will be able to afford the habit.

[penchief]

I have but I speed and tailgate..

I think one smells like shit(smoking incar) and the other smells like wet shit(leaving it in your car)..

But hey, if you smoke why not throw them in the trash instead of on the road??

Because they want to impose the consequences (littering) of their habit onto the non-smoking public instead of assuming responsibility for the consequences (a stinky car) themselves.

[penchief]

Do you honestly think smoking bans are going to solve that?

It's a lot easier to catch someone smoking where they shouldn't be smoking than it is to catch someone in the act of tossing their butt. You'd have to keep your eyes trained on them until they finished smoking. It's not a great leap to assume that anyone smoking in a park is not carrying an ash tray on their person and is almost always going to throw it on the ground. Stop the smoking and you'll stop the littering.

[Bob Dole]

It's not a great leap to assume that anyone smoking in a park is not carrying an ash tray on their person and is almost always going to throw it on the ground.

Could you make any more broad and sweeping generalizations? :rolleyes: Ever heard of pockets or rolling your pants up to make a cuff? Both are really handy places to hold an extinguished butt until you can find a waste bin.

[penchief]

Could you make any more broad and sweeping generalizations? :rolleyes: Ever heard of pockets or rolling your pants up to make a cuff? Both are really handy places to hold an extinguished butt until you can find a waste bin.

I'm not saying I agree with the logic. I'm merely saying I understand the logic. Where are all those cigiarette butts coming from? Non-smokers? If smokers would smoke responsibly they wouldn't force the public to have to pass ordinances that prevent smokers from imposing the consequences of their habit onto the non-smoking public.

Do you smoke? Do you carry an ash tray in your pocket when you are not in your car? What do you do with your cigarette butt in such a circumstance? Do you throw it on the ground? Most smokers I know won't even use the ash tray in their car.

[stevieray]

It's amazing how far some will go to be offended.

[penchief]

It's amazing how far some will go to be offended.

Says the guy who's always accusing other people of not taking responsibility for their own actions. You're sounding a bit hypocritical, stevieray.

Besides, the people who are perpetually offended in this case are the smokers. They would rather play the victim than take responsibility for the consequences of their own habit.

[Bugeater]

My problem is NOT with smoking. As I've said, I believe that smokers have all the right in the world to smoke. My problem is with the ATTITUDE of most smokers. Most believe it is THEIR right to impose the consequences of their habit onto others. Thus, all the whining and bitching about laws that protect non-smokers from cancer causing second hand smoke.

And moreso than non-smokers, smokers act as if it is THEIR right to litter. Too many smokers believe that smoking gives them the right to toss their butts on the ground. The bitching and whining about those of us who think littering is disrespectful is evidence of that.

Why can't smokers just smoke responsibly instead of behaving as if they are being persecuted?

Do you seriously think you're going to get cancer from a whiff of cigarette smoke outside? That's just another red herring.

As far as the littering, I totally agree, but smokers are far from the only people who litter. Personally, if I'm smoking outdoors in an area with no means to properly dispose of the butt, I'll break off the burning part and stomp it out, and stick the butt back into my cigarette pack until I have a place to dispose of it. I do smoke responsibly, and I do feel I'm still persecuted, mainly because I AM.

[stevieray]

Says the guy who's always accusing other people of not taking responsibility for their own actions. You're sounding a bit hypocritical, stevieray.no, the hypocritical part is people trying to take responsibiltiy for everyone else. besides, it's funny coming from the guy who always cries about losing liberties.

[penchief]

Do you seriously think you're going to get cancer from a whiff of cigarette smoke outside? That's just another red herring.

As far as the littering, I totally agree, but smokers are far from the only people who litter. Personally, if I'm smoking outdoors in an area with no means to properly dispose of the butt, I'll break off the burning part and stomp it out, and stick the butt back into my cigarette pack until I have a place to dispose of it. I do smoke responsibly, and I do feel I'm still persecuted, mainly because I AM.

My reference was to all the whining that took place when the smoking ban at indoor public establishments took place. That said, second hand smoke is second hand smoke. It's a cancer causing agent.

Kudo's to you for not littering. Unfortunately, you are in the minority. Most of your smoking brethren don't exercise the same respect. If tossing cigarette butts on the ground weren't the norm it wouldn't be a problem.

[stevieray]

Littering in general is a major problem in KC.

[penchief]

no, the hypocritical part is people trying to take responsibiltiy for everyone else. besides, it's funny coming from the guy who always cries about losing liberties.

No, you're being hypocritical. You didn't think about it before you posted because you saw a chance to take a shot.

How does confronting a problem equate to an attempt to take responsibility for everyone else? Nice try. When people are forced to deal with the consequences of other people's irresponsible behavior, they have the right to do whatever they see fit to remove that burden.

Liberty is not the freedom to impose on others. Liberty is the freedom from being imposed upon.

[stevieray]

No, you're being hypocritical. You didn't think about it before you posted because you saw a chance to take a shot.

How does confronting a problem equate to an attempt to take responsibility for everyone else? Nice try. When people are forced to deal with the consequences of other people's irresponsible behavior, they have the right to do whatever they see fit to remove that burden.

Liberty is not the freedom to impose on others. Liberty is the freedom from being imposed upon.

you only replied to my post so you could play Daddy.


consequenses? again, you NEED to be offended.

your last two lines defends smokers more than it does your poor wittle nose.

[penchief]

consequenses? agian, you NEED to be offended.

your last line defends smokers more than it does your poor wittle nose.

Once again, stevieray completely misses the point because he's too busy making implications about the motives of those whom he dislikes.

I defend the right of smokers to smoke but not to impose the consequences of their smoking onto others, which second hand smoke and littering both do.

[Bugeater]

My reference was to all the whining that took place when the smoking ban at indoor public establishments took place. That said, second hand smoke is second hand smoke. It's a cancer causing agent.

Kudo's to you for not littering. Unfortunately, you are in the minority. Most of your smoking brethren don't exercise the same respect. If tossing cigarette butts on the ground weren't the norm it wouldn't be a problem.

Well IMO the "whining" was justified when it came to bars, if you're REALLY worried about secondhand smoke then DON'T GO IN THERE. It's that simple.

And I can't help but think the littering thing is being blown out of proportion, I don't ever recall going to a park and seeing cigarette butts everywhere. Maybe some here and there, just like the occasional soda or beer can or fast food wrapper etc. And I fail to see where the butt on the ground is imposing on your quality of life any more than any of the other litter. The truth is some people are simply annoyed by smokers and will jump on any opportunity to take a shot at them.

[stevieray]

Once again, stevieray completely misses the point because he's too busy making implications about the motives of those whom he dislikes.

I defend the right of smokers to smoke but not to impose the consequences of their smoking onto others, which second hand smoke and littering both do.once again.penchief likes to judge in othere what he does himself.

as bugeater pointed out, shs is ared herring, littering encompasses all items thrown on the ground...obvoiusly butts are part of the problem..I'm not arguing the littering aspect.

[Braincase]

I do feel I'm still persecuted, mainly because I AM.

It's persecution by choice. You don't have to smoke.

[penchief]

Well IMO the "whining" was justified when it came to bars, if you're REALLY worried about secondhand smoke then DON'T GO IN THERE. It's that simple.

And I can't help but think the littering thing is being blown out of proportion, I don't ever recall going to a park and seeing cigarette butts everywhere. Maybe some here and there, just like the occasional soda or beer can or fast food wrapper etc. And I fail to see where the butt on the ground is imposing on your quality of life any more than any of the other litter. The truth is some people are simply annoyed by smokers and will jump on any opportunity to take a shot at them.

If the bar is a public place every citizen should have the right to enter a public establishment with the reasonable expectation of not having to deal with a health hazard.

Your same logic could be used against smokers. If they want to smoke then they should have no problem staying away from places that make them go outside to smoke. People who don't smoke have every bit as much right to go to a public establishment and not have to breathe in second hand smoke as those who do smoke.

On another note, even the night clubs are doing better since the bans have taken effect. There is a reason for that.

[stevieray]

It's persecution by choice. You don't have to smoke.
it's persecution by law.

I would've loved to see John Adam's face if someone told him he couldn't smoke in the WH.

[Bugeater]

It's persecution by choice. You don't have to smoke.

I will admit there is an air of truth to that, but it's just not that easy to quit after 20 years of smoking. I don't think many non-smokers realize how powerful of an addiction it is. Honestly, I hate just about everything about smoking myself. I hate the way it makes me smell, I hate the mess it makes, I hate the money I spend on it, but even with all of that I STILL can't put them down.

[Nzoner]

How does confronting a problem equate to an attempt to take responsibility for everyone else? Nice try. When people are forced to deal with the consequences of other people's irresponsible behavior, they have the right to do whatever they see fit to remove that burden.

Liberty is not the freedom to impose on others. Liberty is the freedom from being imposed upon.

So once again I bring up Arrowhead,I can't smoke in my seat at an outdoor stadium but I've had a drunken bastard pour his beer down my back.

Now if I do whatever I see fit to remove that burden i.e. knock his ass out,guess who gets kicked out of the game?

[penchief]

once again.penchief likes to judge in othere what he does himself.

as bugeater pointed out, shs is ared herring, littering encompasses all items thrown on the ground...obvoiusly butts are part of the problem..I'm not arguing the littering aspect.

I said that you sounded hypocritical with your initial post because your accusation overlooked the fact that your signature move is to claim nobody wants to take responsibility for themselves. Rather ironic considering that asking smokers not to litter is doing just that.

That said, the average person doesn't litter. My experiences have shown me that the average smoker does. Smokers are the ones who should curb the irresponsible behavior rather than forcing the hand of the public. That would be taking responsibility.

Also, show me anywhere in this thread where I took an unprovoked personal shot at someone else's character that way you have a habit of doing.

[Bugeater]

If the bar is a public place every citizen should have the right to enter a public establishment with the reasonable expectation of not having to deal with a health hazard.

Your same logic could be used against smokers. If they want to smoke then they should have no problem staying away from places that make them go outside to smoke. People who don't smoke have every bit as much right to go to a public establishment and not have to breathe in second hand smoke as those who do smoke.

On another note, even the night clubs are doing better since the bans have taken effect. There is a reason for that.

You're missing the point, no one was forcing anyone to go into those establishments. I AM being forced to go outside to smoke now.

And I have a hard time believing that bars are doing better now, if it was that good for business I have to think bar owners would've banned it themselves long ago. I still think people should have the freedom to make the choice themselves...but that ship has sailed and it's pointless to argue about it further.

[penchief]

So once again I bring up Arrowhead,I can't smoke in my seat at an outdoor stadium but I've had a drunken bastard pour his beer down my back.

Now if I do whatever I see fit to remove that burden i.e. knock his ass out,guess who gets kicked out of the game?

Hey, I agree with you. The only time in my life that I was able to make a trek to Arrowhead we had three drunks behind us dropping the f bomb every other word and talking in an x-rated manner about sex while my eight year old daughter was sitting right in front of them.

That said, I believe that the quarters are too close for second hand smoke not to be an issue for those sitting next to a smoker.

[stevieray]

your first reply...of course, you'll never admit it....but hey keep focusing on me mr waving the banner of integrity on his bosses dime.

i'm going to work, you keep being offended online....

[penchief]

You're missing the point, no one was forcing anyone to go into those establishments. I AM being forced to go outside to smoke now.

And I have a hard time believing that bars are doing better now, if it was that good for business I have to think bar owners would've banned it themselves long ago. I still think people should have the freedom to make the choice themselves...but that ship has sailed and it's pointless to argue about it further.

I'm not missing the point. Going out to a public place is not the act in question. Smoking is the act in question. The smoker is initiating the act. The person initiating the act is responsible for the act and its consequences. If the act is dangerous to others then the person initiating the act is required to respect the health and safety of those who do not initiate the act.

If the person initiating the act is not willing to account for the harm he or she will do to others then it is appropriate for public places that are open to both smokers and non-smokers to set guidelines that do account for the health and safety of ALL their customers.

Also, there is data that shows that businesses are doing better. Even bars. The fact that three quarters of the people in this country don't smoke might have something to do with that data.

[Nzoner]

You're missing the point, no one was forcing anyone to go into those establishments. I AM being forced to go outside to smoke now.

Here's one for you,this last Friday I'm at my usual happy hour at a smoking bar and a girl who orders food 2 seats down from me says,"you're gonna have to blow that smoke elsewhere."

I'm like WTF,because I wasn't blowing it in her direction and I finally replied,"you're sitting in the smoking area" and let it go at that.

[Brock]

Smoking is on its way out, get over it. I'm not in favor of it, but there it is.

[penchief]

your first reply...of course, you'll never admit it....but hey keep focusing on me mr waving the banner of integrity on his bosses dime.

i'm going to work, you keep being offended online....

Pointing out that your insinuation that people are too easily offended over smokers not taking responsibility for their smoking (obviously me) "sounded" hypocritical considering that your pet move is to accuse people of not taking responsibility for themselves.

Sorry, but yours was a personal shot that left you open because you were too eager to take it. All I did was point out the obvious. Then you proceeded to expound on your amateur psychological analysis of my "need" to be offended. Maybe you should take personal responsibility for your "need" to take pot shots at other people's character instead of addressing the content of their posts.

[dirk digler]

I am all for smoking bans for indoor activities especially restaurants but I think bars should be allowed to have smoking.

I think trying to ban smoking in outside areas especially in parks etc is stupid.

[Simplex3]

City employees having to, gasp, actually clean up? Disturbing indeed.

Screw that. I'm not about to pay for another freaking government employee who is overpaid and can't be fired just so smokers don't have to police their own trash. That goes for anyone else who is dropping their shit on the ground.

[Simplex3]

Both are pretty much bullshit and you changed the context of what he was responding to a bit. Old butts and ashes make the interior of a car smell far worse (and dirty) and I don't think I can ever recall actually seeing a butt bounce off my windshield while driving.

If you would clean out the ashtray more than once a year the butts wouldn't be such a problem.

As for cigarettes bouncing off my windshield, it happens to me a couple times a year at least. Driving along and the poof - a shower of red sparks all over the front of the car.

[Bugeater]

I'm not missing the point. Going out to a public place is not the act in question. Smoking is the act in question. The smoker is initiating the act. The person initiating the act is responsible for the act and its consequences. If the act is dangerous to others then the person initiating the act is required to respect the health and safety of those who do not initiate the act.

If the person initiating the act is not willing to account for the harm he or she will do to others then it is appropriate for public places that are open to both smokers and non-smokers to set guidelines that do account for the health and safety of ALL their customers.

Also, there is data that shows that businesses are doing better. Even bars. The fact that three quarters of the people in this country don't smoke might have something to do with that data.
Eh, you keep beating the secondhand smoke drum, but like I said earlier I still think this is more of a nuisance issue than a health issue. I can't help but think there could've been some middle ground to be found somewhere but the crusaders won't be happy until they've imposed their will on to everyone.


Here's one for you,this last Friday I'm at my usual happy hour at a smoking bar and a girl who orders food 2 seats down from me says,"you're gonna have to blow that smoke elsewhere."

I'm like WTF,because I wasn't blowing it in her direction and I finally replied,"you're sitting in the smoking area" and let it go at that.

Scumbag.

[Simplex3]

If the bar is a public place every citizen should have the right to enter a public establishment with the reasonable expectation of not having to deal with a health hazard.

Actually, a bar is a private business. As such they should be allowed to let people smoke. I've said that I think they just need to word the law so that smoking indoors is not allowed unless you as a business owner want to hang a sign on the front door saying "smoking allowed".

[Simplex3]

it's persecution by law.

I would've loved to see John Adam's face if someone told him he couldn't smoke in the WH.

It would also be pretty cool to see the decision he would have made if he would have known what it was doing to his lungs.

[dirk digler]

Actually, a bar is a private business. As such they should be allowed to let people smoke. I've said that I think they just need to word the law so that smoking indoors is not allowed unless you as a business owner want to hang a sign on the front door saying "smoking allowed".

The problem lies with business that are bars and restaurants. If they are strictly bars then I agree that they should allow smoking. But if they are a restaurant they could at least provide a separated non-smoking environment.

[ArrowheadHawk]

I am a ex-smoker. Just quit smoking and you don't have to worry about these laws. The town I live in banned smoking in public places. If you don't live in this environment you don't understand how awesome it is to go to the bar or pool hall and come home smelling like yourself not a friggen ashtray.

[Frazod]

It would also be pretty cool to see the decision he would have made if he would have known what it was doing to his lungs.

Yeah, that was a real fucking tragedy, since Adams died so young. :rolleyes:

[penchief]

Actually, a bar is a private business. As such they should be allowed to let people smoke. I've said that I think they just need to word the law so that smoking indoors is not allowed unless you as a business owner want to hang a sign on the front door saying "smoking allowed".

They are private businesses open to the public. There is no law that says that they can't have a private bar that allows smoking. If they are going to be open to the general public (which consists of both smokers and non-smokers) then they should be accountable for providing an environment that is not harmful to non-smokers. It seems only reasonable.

[Brock]

They are private businesses open to the public. There is no law that says that they can't have a private bar that allows smoking. If they are going to be open to the general public (which consists of both smokers and non-smokers) then they should be accountable for providing an environment that is not harmful to non-smokers. It seems only reasonable.

How about we put the non-smokers outside on the patio? that okay with you?

[penchief]

How about we put the non-smokers outside on the patio? that okay with you?

Why should they make the non-smokers move outside when they are not the ones initiating the act?

Those who initiate the act should be responsible for their action.

[Brock]

Why should they make the non-smokers move outside when they are not the ones initiating the act?

How about we leave it up to the guy who actually owns the property?

[penchief]

How about we leave it up to the guy who actually owns the property?

If he's open to the public (both smokers and non-smokers) it should still fall on the person who initiates the act and causes the health hazard, IMO.

If the owner wants to have a smoking bar he can make his bar a private bar that is not open to the general public. I don't think there is a law against that, is there?

[Brock]

If he's open to the public (both smokers and non-smokers) it should still fall on the person who initiates the act and causes the health hazard, IMO.

If the owner wants to have a smoking bar he can make his bar a private bar that is not open to the general public. I don't think there is a law against that, is there?

Or we could avoid the whole problem by choosing to go to nonsmoking establishments if we don't want to be offended.

[Al Czervik]

Or we could avoid the whole problem by choosing to go to nonsmoking establishments if we don't want to be offended.

Bingo

[Nzoner]

How about we leave it up to the guy who actually owns the property?

QFT

[Dartgod]

Yeah, that was a real ****ing tragedy, since Adams died so young. :rolleyes:
I had to look it up. 90 years old.

:doh!:

[penchief]

Or we could avoid the whole problem by choosing to go to nonsmoking establishments if we don't want to be offended.

I don't think there is a problem anymore where smoking bans have been enacted. Smokers are going outside to smoke as they should. Establishments are thriving because non-smokers are now patronizing bars and restaurants that they would not before. People who don't smoke can enjoy the products and services provided to the general public without ingesting carcinogens. Problem solved.

[Brock]

I don't think there is a problem anymore where smoking bans have been enacted. Smokers are going outside to smoke as they should. Establishments are thriving because non-smokers are now patronizing bars and restaurants that they would not before. People who don't smoke can enjoy the products and services provided to the general public without ingesting carcinogens. Problem solved.

Business owner's rights infringed on - PROBLEM SOLVED HOORAY

[sedated]

when I go into a public place, especially a bar, I'm running just as much risk of some dumb drunk being loud and annoying, the bartender being a bitch, my drink taking too long, etc, etc, etc.

Everyone runs that risk every time they leave their house; you give up the right to control everything about your environment. Get over it, or stay inside.


As for this park/golf course bullshit, anyone who supports this law should be forced to get rid of their car first. They are the same as the dumbasses that get in your face about eating meat, then walk away in their leather shoes. If you are so concerned about "clean air", there are bigger fish to fry than some guy puffing on a cigar while he's playing the back nine.

[penchief]

Business owner's rights infringed on - PROBLEM SOLVED HOORAY

Business owners have a responsibility if they are going to be serving the general public. If they don't want that responsibility then they should just run private businesses that are not open to the general public.

[chiefsfanintx]

O.K. how about banning drinking at bars?To me it is so stupid to ban smoking but allow drinking. It somehow became acceptable to have a few drinks and then be off to your next destination. I smoke. I keep it away from my children. I don't take them to places where smoking is allowed because their health and well being is my responsibility not the gov. I would much rather sit in a bar with a lot of smokers than a bunch of drinkers that are going to get back on the road.

[Brock]

Business owners have a responsibility if they are going to be serving the general public. If they don't want that responsibility then they should just run private businesses that are not open to the general public.

Obviously, you've never owned your own business, so you can't relate.

[KCUnited]

Now if we can just eliminate the carcinogens found in foods that are grilled at high temps or fried and we can all be in the clear.

[penchief]

Obviously, you've never owned your own business, so you can't relate.

I have, in fact. Not that kind of business though. Maybe I can't relate. But I would think that a bar is no different from any other business open to the public. A person should be able to go to the grocery store without being subjected to second hand smoke. Same goes for a bar, IMO.

[Brock]

I have, in fact. Not that kind of business though. Maybe I can't relate. But I would think that a bar is no different from any other business open to the public. A person should be able to go to the grocery store without being subjected to second hand smoke. Same goes for a bar, IMO.

Fact is, the reason they have to install these universal smoke bans is because bars that do it voluntarily go out of business. That should clue you in that bars are different from other businesses.

[penchief]

Fact is, the reason they have to install these universal smoke bans is because bars that do it voluntarily go out of business. That should clue you in that bars are different from other businesses.

That is just not true. Businesses accross the board are doing better because more people are frequenting their establishments, including bars. There is all kinds of data to back those facts up. I live in New York State where the ban took effect about three years ago and the local bars in my town are thriving. The fact is that once smokers get over it they don't have a problem stepping outside to smoke. Combine that with the fact that more non-smokers are going out to bars and you have the reason why businesses are doing better.

[dirk digler]

Obviously, you've never owned your own business, so you can't relate.

Penchief is right on this at least when it concerns serving the general public. You also have to consider health regulations on how they serve the food and the cleaniness of the place.

Should that be left up to the owner as well?

[smittysbar]

No golf course will enforce this. A matter of fact the classier the course the more that smoke cigars.

This has gotten ridiculous. You fuckers that say it has helped the bar business do not have a fucking clue. Until you do STFU. Don't throw stats up to prove a point about a bar, which is a cash business.

[Brock]

That is just not true. Businesses accross the board are doing better because more people are frequenting their establishments, including bars. There is all kinds of data to back those facts up. I live in New York State where the ban took effect about three years ago and the local bars in my town are thriving. The fact is that once smokers get over it they don't have a problem stepping outside to smoke. Combine that with the fact that more non-smokers are going out and you have the reason why businesses are doing better.

You don't understand what I just said. I said that, if there was no ban, bars that voluntarily went smoke-free would go out of business.

[penchief]

You don't understand what I just said. I said that, if there was no ban, bars that voluntarily went smoke-free would go out of business.

I'm not so sure about that. How do you account for the fact that bars have done better since the bans have been enacted?

[DeezNutz]

Screw that. I'm not about to pay for another freaking government employee who is overpaid and can't be fired just so smokers don't have to police their own trash. That goes for anyone else who is dropping their shit on the ground.

Why can't the guy or gal who cleans up the trash at the park take care of the butts, too?

This won't require much, if any, additional man hours.

[dirk digler]

No golf course will enforce this. A matter of fact the classier the course the more that smoke cigars.

This has gotten ridiculous. You fuckers that say it has helped the bar business do not have a fucking clue. Until you do STFU. Don't throw stats up to prove a point about a bar, which is a cash business.

I agree that bars only should be allowed to do whatever they want in regards to smoking but if they have a restaurant as well then there is going to have to be some accommodations.

[smittysbar]

One more thing, us bar owners have spent a ton of money over the years to make non-smokers happy. Special filters, smoke eaters, ventilation fans.....you get the point. Owners for the most part have always tried to accommodate both.

And yes I think there are some states that have passed it so that PRIVATE clubs received the ban also.

[penchief]

No golf course will enforce this. A matter of fact the classier the course the more that smoke cigars.

This has gotten ridiculous. You ****ers that say it has helped the bar business do not have a ****ing clue. Until you do STFU. Don't throw stats up to prove a point about a bar, which is a cash business.

I did my internship on this. There is plenty of data to show that even bars have done better. Smokers didn't stop going out. They adapted. Non-smokers started going out again.

[smittysbar]

I'm not so sure about that. How do you account for the fact that bars have done better since the bans have been enacted?

Because the fact they haven't

[Brock]

I'm not so sure about that. How do you account for the fact that bars have done better since the bans have been enacted?

I don't really need to account for it, there are a couple of bar owners right here in this thread telling you it isn't true, your college thesis notwithstanding.

[penchief]

Because the fact they haven't

Yes they have.

[Dartgod]

I'm not so sure about that. How do you account for the fact that bars have done better since the bans have been enacted?
I'm a dipshit and even I get what he is saying.

If there are three bars in town and Bar A voluntarily bans smoking, while Bar B and Bar C still allow it, who's business do you think will suffer?

[DeezNutz]

Are any of you fuckers smoking now?

This is public forum, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.

[penchief]

I'm a dipshit and even I get what he is saying.

If there are three bars in town and Bar A voluntarily bans smoking, while Bar B and Bar C still allow it, who's business do you think will suffer?

I get what he's saying. I'm just not sure I'm buying it. If the non-smoking bar was the best bar in town, the most fun, and all the hottest guys and gals went to that bar I'll bet that people wouldn't mind stepping outside to smoke.

[dirk digler]

I'm a dipshit and even I get what he is saying.

If there are three bars in town and Bar A voluntarily bans smoking, while Bar B and Bar C still allow it, who's business do you think will suffer?

Bar only or bar/restaurant?

If bar only obviously the non-smoking one will suffer. If it is bar/restaurant the smoking ones will suffer

[smittysbar]

I did my internship on this. There is plenty of data to show that even bars have done better. Smokers didn't stop going out. They adapted. Non-smokers started going out again.

Do you own a bar? Do you know people that own a bar? I do, and I do. Let me tell you, it has NOT made anything better. Two bars have went out of business because of it, and another is on the verge of it. Another is crying the blues everytime I talk to him. The other has went to a more restaurant type atmosphere.

CASH BUSINESS, you stats are wrong.

[Dartgod]

Bar only or bar/restaurant?

If bar only obviously the non-smoking one will suffer. If it bar/restaurant the smoking ones will suffer
Bar only.

[penchief]

Do you own a bar? Do you know people that own a bar? I do, and I do. Let me tell you, it has NOT made anything better. Two bars have went out of business because of it, and another is on the verge of it. Another is crying the blues everytime I talk to him. The other has went to a more restaurant type atmosphere.

CASH BUSINESS, you stats are wrong.

Did people just stop drinking? They aren't going out to bars anymore? Why is your experience so much different than the norm?

[Brock]

I get what he's saying. I'm just not sure I'm buying it. If the non-smoking bar was the best bar in town, the most fun, and all the hottest guys and gals went to that bar I'll bet that people wouldn't mind stepping outside.

You don't have to "buy it". Real world history says it's true.

[Brock]

Did people just stop drinking? They aren't going out to bars anymore? Why is your experience so much different than the norm?

The norm apparently only exists in your mind.

[sedated]

How do you account for the fact that bars have done better since the bans have been enacted?

There is plenty of data to show that even bars have done better.

link?

I've talked to several bar-workers who have said the opposite. Business is down, and the little business they are getting is mostly carry-out food, so the wait staffs are getting screwed.

Since the smoking ban, I can name several bars that have closed - tanners, paddy o'quigleys, john's upper deck, river market brewery, and rumor has it that several more are in trouble.

[dirk digler]

You know what is really bad about the KC smoking ban? They sold out to the casinos and allowed people to smoke on the casino floor but if you strictly own a bar then you can't allow smoking. IMHO that is BS.

http://www.kcmo.org/health.nsf/web/smokingordinance#4

[KCUnited]

Since the smoking ban, I can name several bars that have closed - tanners, paddy o'quigleys, john's upper deck, river market brewery, and rumor has it that several more are in trouble.

FWIW, with the exception of paddy o's (I never frequented the place), those other bars listed were in the shit way before the smoking ban went into effect.

[smittysbar]

Did people just stop drinking? They aren't going out to bars anymore? Why is your experience so much different than the norm?

A bar is not the only place to drink. All lost most if not all of their day crowd. As most know, these are the regulars that set around through out the day, everyday, these guys pay the bills. I have talked to owners in other towns and they feel the same way.

The Moose lodge has probably doubled, at the least, their yearly memberships.

Hey if you don't want to take my word on it, that's fine. I am right, you are wrong, this is my life, I would hope I know a little bit more than your research. You can throw all the stats in the world at the guys that have lost their livelihood, you might want to duck when you tell them.

I am done with this subject because it pisses me off that little fuckheads try to tell me how it effects business.

[Lex Luthors]

So once again I bring up Arrowhead,I can't smoke in my seat at an outdoor stadium but I've had a drunken bastard pour his beer down my back.

Now if I do whatever I see fit to remove that burden i.e. knock his ass out,guess who gets kicked out of the game?
When you can prove that having beer poured down your back by a drunken bastard has even 1/1000th of the long-term effects on your health as secondhand smoke, your argument will begin to make some sense.

Until then, not so much.

[dirk digler]

A bar is not the only place to drink. All lost most if not all of their day crowd. As most know, these are the regulars that set around through out the day, everyday, these guys pay the bills. I have talked to owners in other towns and they feel the same way.

The Moose lodge has probably doubled, at the least, their yearly memberships.

Hey if you don't want to take my word on it, that's fine. I am right, you are wrong, this is my life, I would hope I know a little bit more than your research. You can throw all the stats in the world at the guys that have lost their livelihood, you might want to duck when you tell them.

I am done with this subject because it pisses me off that little fuckheads try to tell me how it effects business.

So what you are telling me the law fucks the little guy and rewards the rich country clubs?

Nice.

[Bugeater]

When you can prove that having beer poured down your back by a drunken bastard has even 1/1000th of the long-term effects on your health as secondhand smoke, your argument will begin to make some sense.

Until then, not so much.

What proof do you have that a whiff of cigarette smoke has any long term effect on your health?

[penchief]

link?

I've talked to several bar-workers who have said the opposite. Business is down, and the little business they are getting is mostly carry-out food, so the wait staffs are getting screwed.

Since the smoking ban, I can name several bars that have closed - tanners, paddy o'quigleys, john's upper deck, river market brewery, and rumor has it that several more are in trouble.

Wow. People aren't going out to bars anymore. Coulda fooled me. And all because they have to go outside to smoke. I would need proof that these bars closed because of the smoking ban and not because they were poorly managed. I would also need proof that other bars have not opened up to take their place.

The fact is that smokers have adapted and non-smokers are going out more often. Not only does the data support this but so does my own experiences when going out to bars and talking to the owners for my internship, as well as my frequenting those bars when I go out on the town. Personal experiences can work both ways.

Hmmmmm...people are not going out to bars anymore. I will need to see a link to back that up.

[Bob Dole]

I agree that bars only should be allowed to do whatever they want in regards to smoking but if they have a restaurant as well then there is going to have to be some accommodations.

Why? Do you have some unalienable right to eat in Bob Dole's privately owned restaurant?

[Fish]

Did people just stop drinking? They aren't going out to bars anymore? Why is your experience so much different than the norm?

A friend in Kansas has shut down 2 of the bars he owned, and he blames the smoking ban on both. One of his establishments didn't have a patio or a covered area near the front door where people could step out, and he blames the ban for killing that one rather quickly.

And that's been the same story I've heard elsewhere. I'm not sure where you're getting your data.

[penchief]

Why? Do you have some unalienable right to eat in Bob Dole's privately owned restaurant?

Because Bob Dole has a liscence to serve the general public? And with that liscence comes a responsibility not to do harm?

[Lex Luthors]

What proof do you have that a whiff of cigarette smoke has any long term effect on your health?
You're making a straw man argument. Nobody says a whiff of cigarette smoke has long term effects on your health. But long-term exposure to secondhand smoke does. The fact that it does is extremely well-documented.

[dirk digler]

Why? Do you have some unalienable right to eat in Bob Dole's privately owned restaurant?

Unalienable? No. But just like every restaurant you have other restrictions like cooking and serving the food at a certain temp and also making sure you're restaurant is clean. I view the smoking ban for restaurants in that same light.

[Brock]

You're making a straw man argument. Nobody says a whiff of cigarette smoke has long term effects on your health. But long-term exposure to secondhand smoke does. The fact that it does is extremely well-documented.

Define long term exposure. The hour it takes to eat a meal and have a couple of drinks? Nonsense, this is government pushing their agenda on private business.

[Bugeater]

You're making a straw man argument. Nobody says a whiff of cigarette smoke has long term effects on your health. But long-term exposure to secondhand smoke does. The fact that it does is extremely well-documented.

We're talking about sitting in Arrowhead for a few hours one day a week, eight times a year at most here, not in an office full of smokers on a daily basis.

[FishingRod]

They are private businesses open to the public. There is no law that says that they can't have a private bar that allows smoking. If they are going to be open to the general public (which consists of both smokers and non-smokers) then they should be accountable for providing an environment that is not harmful to non-smokers. It seems only reasonable.


How bad do the "heath consequences to others need to be before legislation needs to be passed?

Should the bar owners be required to provide a shaded area for the people on the patio to prevent Skin cancer? Should they be required to install air cleaning machinery to remove the toxins coming from the cars as they drive by? Should all businesses be required to have an additional water purification system to filter out the trace levels of arsenic typically found in public drinking water?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9776409?dopt=Abstract


This is an interesting study by the world heath association. It does show a 22% correlation between children and second hand smoke... The odd thing is they are 22% less likely to get cancer instead of more. What does that mean? Well probably that the study is jacked up. There is lots of Junk science these days. But if you repeat something long and loud enough it becomes accepted as the truth. Hell we are now talking about 3rd hand smoke and people are concerned that if little Johnny sees someone smoking they will probably turn to a life of drugs and crime.


“The theory that cigarette smoke kills non-smokers was dreamt up 30 years ago by anti-smoking activists; only after inventing it did they attempt to prove it.

One of the most comprehensive studies was published in the British Medical Journal in 2003. It concluded: ‘The results do not support a causal relationship between environmental tobacco smoke and tobacco-related mortality"

Every time we or our children leave the house they are exposed to radiation from the sun, carbon monoxide from cars and busses, pesticides from the lawn, we are in danger of being run over by poor drivers. About the same number of people die each year falling off a ladder as do by gun accidents. Smoke stinks, some people are actually either highly sensitive or allergic and it makes them ill. I feel the same way when people substitute POLO for regular bathing but, I don't think there needs to be a law. There are places people actually have to go to. Like the drivers license bureau and other governmental agencies. I think we should make every reasonable accommodation to the general public in these places. No smoking , no dogs, no peanuts that sort of thing. On the other hand it is just plain wrong that the owner of an establishment is not allowed to decide on his or her own if they want smoking, no smoking or sections designated for either. The owners we make the decision that they think will help them make the most money and the people can excise the right to , or not to patronize an establishment.

I hate to post and run but I gotta get a few things done. I'll check back in later.

[vailpass]

I did my internship on this. There is plenty of data to show that even bars have done better. Smokers didn't stop going out. They adapted. Non-smokers started going out again.

ROFL You did an internship and think that qualifies you to tell a BAR OWNER what the facts are as related to BAR OWNERSHIP?
Priceless.
Did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

[dirk digler]

We're talking about sitting in Arrowhead for a few hours one day a week, eight times a year at most here, not in an office full of smokers on a daily basis.

When I worked security at Arrowhead for 5 years the biggest complaint by far was people smoking in the seats. People just hate to have smoke blow right in their face...understandably.

[Lex Luthors]

Define long term exposure. The hour it takes to eat a meal and have a couple of drinks? Nonsense, this is government pushing their agenda on private business.
I'd really rather not get into a debate with you about whether or not secondhand smoke affects the health of non-smokers. If you insist that it doesn't, nothing will convince you.

I'd rather rely on the data posted by organizations such as The American Cancer Society and other similar organizations. They disagree with you.

However, I will say that even though I support indoor smoking bans, I think that banning smoking in outdoor areas is an entirely different thing. I wouldn't support a smoking ban on a golf course or in a park. Those are outdoor venues. You can avoid secondhand smoke pretty easily on a golf course.

[Bugeater]

When I worked security at Arrowhead for 5 years the biggest complaint by far was people smoking in the seats. People just hate have smoke blow in their face...understandably.

And that reinforces my position that it is a nuisance issue, not a health issue.

[Brock]

I'd really rather not get into a debate with you about whether or not secondhand smoke affects the health of non-smokers. If you insist that it doesn't, nothing will convince you.

Okay, so don't debate that. Define long term exposure.

[dirk digler]

And that reinforces my position that is a nuisance issue, not a health issue.

No question it is a nuisance issue.

Though I could see it being a health issue if the person right behind you is allergic to smoke and when he inhales that huge puff of smoke keels over and dies. :D

[ClevelandBronco]

My problem is NOT with smoking. As I've said, I believe that smokers have all the right in the world to smoke. My problem is with the ATTITUDE of most smokers. Most believe it is THEIR right to impose the consequences of their habit onto others. Thus, all the whining and bitching about laws that protect non-smokers from cancer causing second hand smoke.

And moreso than non-smokers, smokers act as if it is THEIR right to litter. Too many smokers believe that smoking gives them the right to toss their butts on the ground. The bitching and whining about those of us who think littering is disrespectful is evidence of that.

Why can't smokers just smoke responsibly instead of behaving as if they are being persecuted?

Are you a woman? Serious question.

I'm beginning to think that you want to be everyone's mother.

[Bugeater]

I'd really rather not get into a debate with you about whether or not secondhand smoke affects the health of non-smokers.

That's because deep down you know it's mostly not true. Both of my brothers grew up in a house with two parents who smoked, and guess what, they're STILL ALIVE. Shocking, I know.

[DeezNutz]

Okay, so don't debate that. Define long term exposure.

Over 5 minutes. At least once a week.

It's also contributing to the melting of the polar caps. Second-hand heat. Also a bitch.

[Brock]

That's because deep down you know it's mostly not true. Both of my brothers grew up in a house with two parents who smoked, and guess what, they're STILL ALIVE. Shocking, I know.

But they're GOING TO DIE!!!111

[ClevelandBronco]

Liberty is not the freedom to impose on others. Liberty is the freedom from being imposed upon.

How do you reconcile that platitude with your view that a business and property owner should not be allowed to choose whether smoking should be allowed in his establishment?

[DeezNutz]

How do you reconcile that platitude with your view that a business and property owner should not be allowed to choose whether smoking should be allowed in his establishment?

Serious health risk for the masses.

You smell smoke--you die1111

[DaKCMan AP]

http://op-for.com/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg

[smittysbar]

All these studies really make me wonder some times. I do know smoking is very bad for your health.

I have a friend/customer that is now 85 years old. He has lived a very mischievous life to say the least. He smoked for years before giving it up. Socially drank his whole life (most everyday) lol. He plays the noon game at the golf course, almost everyday. He comes to the bar a drinks with the guys before going home. He still smokes when he drinks, and I have seen this guy stay till closing recently.

Just makes you wonder how a guy like this is still going strong. Hope I am half as lucky.

Though I do know I need to kick the habit, I know it effects my health. I can't wait to finnally do it, if nothing else for my family.

Just makes me laugh sometimes to see this old man cusing and throwing clubs, and still hanging with us throughout the night.

[kstater]

I don't think there is a problem anymore where smoking bans have been enacted. Smokers are going outside to smoke as they should. Establishments are thriving because non-smokers are now patronizing bars and restaurants that they would not before. People who don't smoke can enjoy the products and services provided to the general public without ingesting carcinogens. Problem solved.

Except for the fact that smokers are now told they can't smoke outside..

[tooge]

To me it's really a respect for others thing. If you want to smoke, go ahead. If you think your smoke is going to bother someone else in the area, dont smoke there. Very simple. If I have gas, I go outside or to the restroom to fart. I wouldn't just stand next to someone eating dinner and blow ass in their face. So why do smokers do that? Same thing to me, respect for others.

[Bowser]

Somebody go check up on Flopnuts. I'm afraid his head exploded.

[Nzoner]

When you can prove that having beer poured down your back by a drunken bastard has even 1/1000th of the long-term effects on your health as secondhand smoke, your argument will begin to make some sense.

Until then, not so much.

I don't have to proove anything because my argument was that Arrowhead makes alot of money on beer sales and no way in hell are they going to assign a designated drinking area,yet a drunken bastard can infringe on my right to stay dry and whether he's punished or not I'm still wet and no way Arrowhead is going to give me a dry shirt.

[Inspector]

Gosh darn it...I want the world made perfect for ME.

Everyone elses opinions and desires really don't matter. It's about what I want for me, dang it.

What's so hard to understand about that?

What? You think there's certain prices to be paid when living in society?

Too bad! Make things the way I want it. Me.

It's not that hard to understand people!!

Guess the tobacco users are going to see what the pot users have to go through with all the sneaking and hiding and all....

[Brock]

Gosh darn it...I want the world made perfect for ME.

Everyone elses opinions and desires really don't matter. It's about what I want for me, dang it.

What's so hard to understand about that?

What? You think there's certain prices to be paid when living in society?

Too bad! Make things the way I want it. Me.

It's not that hard to understand people!!

Guess the tobacco users are going to see what the pot users have to go through with all the sneaking and hiding and all....


And now, a message for the private business owner: 4321

[Nzoner]

All these studies really make me wonder some times. I do know smoking is very bad for your health.

I have a friend/customer that is now 85 years old. He has lived a very mischievous life to say the least. He smoked for years before giving it up. Socially drank his whole life (most everyday) lol. He plays the noon game at the golf course, almost everyday. He comes to the bar a drinks with the guys before going home. He still smokes when he drinks, and I have seen this guy stay till closing recently.

Just makes you wonder how a guy like this is still going strong. Hope I am half as lucky.

Though I do know I need to kick the habit, I know it effects my health. I can't wait to finnally do it, if nothing else for my family.

Just makes me laugh sometimes to see this old man cusing and throwing clubs, and still hanging with us throughout the night.

I know smoking is not good,yet,I do it by choice,however,I've lived for 46 years around it(parent grandparents,friends) one grandfather didn't quit till in his late 50's and still lived to see 93.Another grandfather,smoked his entire life and made it to 78.

As for the bar discussion,our 54th Street Bar & Grill still allows smoking on the bar side and you should see the place.It's packed and what's even funnier is that alot of non-smokers who can't get a seat in non-smoking will still sit on the smoking side because they don't want to have to endure the wait for a table in non-smoking.

[DaKCMan AP]

Switch to smokeless tomacco. Smokers still get their nicotine fix, adverse health effects and nasty breath.

Non-smokers don't have to deal with second-hand smoke.

Everyone wins.

http://cabanedebart.free.fr/grabpics+other/Homer%20et%20ses%20tobaccos.gif

[FishingRod]

To me it's really a respect for others thing. If you want to smoke, go ahead. If you think your smoke is going to bother someone else in the area, dont smoke there. Very simple. If I have gas, I go outside or to the restroom to fart. I wouldn't just stand next to someone eating dinner and blow ass in their face. So why do smokers do that? Same thing to me, respect for others.

You make an excellent point and it goes both ways. I try not to smoke around people that it bothers. Or anyone that is eating. I don't like people that use glasses and plates as ashtrays. It's rude. On the other side of the coin. I have had people gripe at me that I'm letting cold air in when I open the door to go outside to smoke in the freezing cold. I've had people come sit next to me when I'm smoking in a bar where there is an equally large non-smoking section and then complain about the cigarette I was already smoking when they chose to sit next to me. A little respect for one another would go a long way but I don't see it happening. It is just the nature of people. I think it is just the nature of many many people to try and get other people to do what they want. When smokers out numbered the non-smokers it was the non-smokers that had to sit in the crappy tables way in the back. Now the attitude is, "Lets just pass another law." I don't have a huge sample size but I do know a few bar owners and they say it has cost them business. I know I go to my favorite place a lot less.

This should be in the DC forum

[grandllama]

Hey, I agree with you. The only time in my life that I was able to make a trek to Arrowhead we had three drunks behind us dropping the f bomb every other word and talking in an x-rated manner about sex while my eight year old daughter was sitting right in front of them

That will teach you to sit in front of ENDelt, Bowser, and I.

[Phobia]

Yeah, that was a real ****ing tragedy, since Adams died so young. :rolleyes:

The difference is Adams was smoking tobacco. You're smoking fillers, additives, chemicals, and some tobacco.

[Frazod]

Define long term exposure. The hour it takes to eat a meal and have a couple of drinks? Nonsense, this is government pushing their agenda on private business.

Please. He can't define jack shit because the American Nazi Part-sorry, I mean the American Cancer Society can't even define it. Nothing but vague generalities. If you do this, some might happen (if? might?).... your odds increase (from what to what?).... I've yet to hear a definition of secondhand smoke that doesn't sound like it was made up at the podium by some lying politician trying to deflect the truth.

This is also a liberal propaganda indoctrination thing, and don't think for a minute that it isn't. That takes hold in cities first. Penchief says bars are not effected by the ban, and I have little doubt that the bars he goes to aren't. The young people who frequent urban yuppie bars have been fully assimilated - they've lived all their lives with various bans and smokers going outside, and have no tolerance for it. These are the same people who have been indoctrinated to fear firearms. All they know is that they don't like it, but the only reason is they don't like the smell. The health excuses are just the bullshit they've been programmed to vomit up if challenged, but just like some religious lunatic arguing about what his deity of choice does/thinks, you try to pin them down on specifics and they just go in to meltdown mode.

[Frazod]

The difference is Adams was smoking tobacco. You're smoking fillers, additives, chemicals, and some tobacco.

I'm not smoking anything. I quit. I just didn't hop onboard the SMOKING IS EVIL WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE train.

[DaKCMan AP]

Please. He can't define jack shit because the American Nazi Part-sorry, I mean the American Cancer Society can't even define it. Nothing but vague generalities. If you do this, some might happen (if? might?).... your odds increase (from what to what?).... I've yet to hear a definition of secondhand smoke that doesn't sound like it was made up at the podium by some lying politician trying to deflect the truth.

This is also a liberal propaganda indoctrination thing, and don't think for a minute that it isn't. That takes hold in cities first. Penchief says bars are not effected by the ban, and I have little doubt that the bars he goes to aren't. The young people who frequent urban yuppie bars have been fully assimilated - they've lived all their lives with various bans and smokers going outside, and have no tolerance for it. These are the same people who have been indoctrinated to fear firearms. All they know is that they don't like it, but the only reason is they don't like the smell. The health excuses are just the bullshit they've been programmed to vomit up if challenged, but just like some religious lunatic arguing about what his deity of choice does/thinks, you try to pin them down on specifics and they just go in to meltdown mode.

The stench is bothersome and it adheres to any and all clothing. It's a pain in the ass if you want to bar hop and go someplace else that isn't clouded in smoke because you bring the smell with you. However, it's more than just the smell. When I go to an establishment that allows smoking, and I am surrounded by smokers all night, I wake up the next morning with a sore throat and a cough. It directly affects my health.

[Frazod]

The stench is bothersome and it adheres to any and all clothing. It's a pain in the ass if you want to bar hop and go someplace else that isn't clouded in smoke because you bring the smell with you. However, it's more than just the smell. When I go to an establishment that allows smoking, and I am surrounded by smokers all night, I wake up the next morning with a sore throat and a cough. It directly affects my health.

I'm sorry to hear that you're dying from your sore throat and cough. Do let us know when the funeral is scheduled. We'll pitch in on a lovely floral arrangement.

The last time I spent the evening in a smoky bar, I woke up with.... nothing. Sure I smelled it in my clothing. Thank god they invented the washing machine, eh? We aren't all sensitive to it. Should everybody not be able to smoke, everywhere, because you wake up with a sore throat that'll go away if you drink a cup of tea?

[Mr. Plow]

No smoking on a golf course? No smoking outdoors? Heh. That's the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard and I don't smoke. I'll puff a cigar every so often, but no cigs.

I enjoy a bar with no smoking on some occasions. I enjoy a bar that allows smoking on other occasions. Here's what I do.....try to stay with me because it gets kind of complicated toward the end....

If I want to smoke - I go to a bar that allows me to smoke. If I don't want to smoke - I go to a bar that caters to pu$$ies...errr....non smokers.

Now, just a recap to make sure you understand....I go where I want to go without forcing my beliefs/habits/problems on anyone else.

[Phobia]

I'm not smoking anything. I quit. I just didn't hop onboard the SMOKING IS EVIL WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE train.

Yeah. I know you quit. That "you" wasn't meant quite so literally.

[Brock]

The stench is bothersome and it adheres to any and all clothing. It's a pain in the ass if you want to bar hop and go someplace else that isn't clouded in smoke because you bring the smell with you. However, it's more than just the smell. When I go to an establishment that allows smoking, and I am surrounded by smokers all night, I wake up the next morning with a sore throat and a cough. It directly affects my health.

Other people aren't to blame for the choices you make.

[DaKCMan AP]

I'm sorry to hear that you're dying from your sore throat and cough. Do let us know when the funeral is scheduled. We'll pitch in on a lovely floral arrangement.

The last time I spent the evening in a smoky bar, I woke up with.... nothing. Sure I smelled it in my clothing. Thank god they invented the washing machine, eh? We aren't all sensitive to it. Should everybody not be able to smoke, everywhere, because you wake up with a sore throat that'll go away if you drink a cup of tea?

My not smoking does not have any adverse effects on others. Others smoking has an adverse effect on my health and hygiene. If they wish to smoke they can step outside. FTR, the bars I frequent aren't located in parks or golf courses so they CAN step outside to fill their lungs with toxins.

[DaKCMan AP]

Other people aren't to blame for the choices you make.

I shouldn't have to suffer for the stupid choices others make.


Thankfully, the law is moving more and more to my side and in my favor.

[kstater]

This should be in the DC forum

So far this has been a relatively civilized discussion. You should see some of the other smoking nazi threads around these parts.

[DeezNutz]

The stench is bothersome and it adheres to any and all clothing. It's a pain in the ass if you want to bar hop and go someplace else that isn't clouded in smoke because you bring the smell with you. However, it's more than just the smell. When I go to an establishment that allows smoking, and I am surrounded by smokers all night, I wake up the next morning with a sore throat and a cough. It directly affects my health.

I'm sure the sore throat and cough has nothing to do with "yelling" to talk above really loud music and consuming a lot of adult beverages.

[Brock]

I shouldn't have to suffer for the stupid choices others make.


Thankfully, the law is moving more and more to my side and in my favor.

You don't have to suffer at all. You could simply avoid those places that offend your delicate sensibilities.

[kstater]

I'm sure the sore throat and cough has nothing to do with "yelling" to talk above really loud music and consuming a lot of adult beverages.

It has nothing to do with the dehydration effects of alcohol.

[DaKCMan AP]

I'm sure the sore throat and cough has nothing to do with "yelling" to talk above really loud music and consuming a lot of adult beverages.

Of course not. ;) Going to bars without smoking may result in a hoarse or lost voice the next morning, but no cough and no soreness.

[DaKCMan AP]

You don't have to suffer at all. You could simply avoid those places that offend your delicate sensibilities.

I don't like having to wait in line to use the restroom. I should be able to just whip it out and urinate wherever, whenever. If others don't like it because they get a little wet and it might smell, well, they should avoid going out in public.

:spock:

[Frazod]

My not smoking does not have any adverse effects on others. Others smoking has an adverse effect on my health and hygiene. If they wish to smoke they can step outside. FTR, the bars I frequent aren't located in parks or golf courses so they CAN step outside to fill their lungs with toxins.

How about some bars that allow smoking, and some bars that don't? Or is the mere existence of bars that allow smoking too offensive to your delicate nature?

[DeezNutz]

How about some bars that allow smoking, and some bars that don't? Or is the mere existence of bars that allow smoking too offensive to your delicate nature?

Skirt can't have safe zones.

I have to be able to chase the snatch wherever it may hide.

[DaKCMan AP]

How about some bars that allow smoking, and some bars that don't? Or is the mere existence of bars that allow smoking too offensive to your delicate nature?

Just about all bars in FL allow smoking. I have friends in my group that smoke. However, they generally are considerate enough to separate from the group to have a smoke.

[Brock]

How about some bars that allow smoking, and some bars that don't? Or is the mere existence of bars that allow smoking too offensive to your delicate nature?

It's been tried. The nonsmoking places are out of business in 6 months. Apparently there aren't as many "sore throat and cough" victims as they thought.

[DaKCMan AP]

It's been tried. The nonsmoking places are out of business in 6 months. Apparently there aren't as many "sore throat and cough" victims as they thought.

It's not that simple. I have people in my group who smoke. I'm not going to force them to go to a non-smoking bar when there are other options that exist. If the smoking options were eliminated, then they'd have to deal with it. It's the same issue as places with age limits. When I was in college there were bars/clubs that were 18+ and 21+. Even though I was 21 or older there were people in our group who weren't so if they coudn't sneak into the 21+ place we'd go to the 18+ bars/clubs.

[MikeMaslowski]

I don't like having to wait in line to use the restroom. I should be able to just whip it out and urinate wherever, whenever. If others don't like it because they get a little wet and it might smell, well, they should avoid going out in public.

:spock:

Likethis....?
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[Frazod]

It's been tried. The nonsmoking places are out of business in 6 months. Apparently there aren't as many "sore throat and cough" victims as they thought.

ROFL

[Frazod]

Just about all bars in FL allow smoking. I have friends in my group that smoke. However, they generally are considerate enough to separate from the group to have a smoke.

So basically you want to hang out with the cool kids, but only if you get to impose your will on them.

That's nice.

[DaKCMan AP]

So basically you want to hang out with the cool kids, but only if you get to impose your will on them.

That's nice.

No, I am the cool kid.

[Mr. Plow]

It's not that simple. I have people in my group who smoke. I'm not going to force them to go to a non-smoking bar when there are other options that exist. If the smoking options were eliminated, then they'd have to deal with it.

So essentially, you don't want to tell your friends that you don't like smoking bars so you want the government to do it for you. Gotcha.

[Frazod]

No, I am the cool kid.

Sorry, but the cool kid doesn't whine about smoking.

[MikeMaslowski]

Sorry, but the cool kid doesn't whine about smoking.

The cool guy....
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[DaKCMan AP]

So essentially, you don't want to tell your friends that you don't like smoking bars so you want the government to do it for you. Gotcha.

No, I tell them not to smoke around me and I try to get them to quit completely. Most of them know how bad and disgusting it is.

[Mr. Plow]

No, I tell them not to smoke around me and I try to get them to quit completely. Most of them know how bad and disgusting it is.

And you said they are considerate enough to leave your area so that it doesn't bother you. So what's the problem?

[Bowser]

If you pussies would just stop smoking, the world would be a better place. Thanks for nothing.

[DaKCMan AP]

And you said they are considerate enough to leave your area so that it doesn't bother you. So what's the problem?

My friends generally will. I don't know everyone in the bar.

[Bob Dole]

How about some bars that allow smoking, and some bars that don't?

*gasp*

You mean let the market decide?

HERETIC!!!11!!eleventy!

[Mr. Plow]

My friends generally will. I don't know everyone in the bar.

The cool kid knows everyone in the bar. :D

[DaKCMan AP]

The cool kid knows everyone in the bar. :D

Then no one is cool at the bar with 700+ patrons. :p

[sedated]

*gasp*

You mean let the market decide?

HERETIC!!!11!!eleventy!

yeah, up until the point that the market disagrees with the government's agenda

[penchief]

ROFL You did an internship and think that qualifies you to tell a BAR OWNER what the facts are as related to BAR OWNERSHIP?
Priceless.
Did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

No silly. My internship required doing actual research rather than relying on hearsay as to why some dude's bar failed. Most people are going to look for reasons other than their own poor management as to why they had to shut the doors. I'm sure that the smoking ban is a convenient excuse for anybody who wants to justify shutting down a bar.

The data that is available to even you will show that businesses accross the board have done better as a result of more patronage. The reason? Smokers have adapted and non-smokers are more likely to go out. Smokers didn't just stop going out to bars. I'll need to see same data to back up the claim. And I seriously doubt that those businesses failed because everybody's joining the Moose Club. I mean com'n. If that were the case then the owners of those failed businesses should all turn their bars into private clubs and prosper.

[penchief]

Are you a woman? Serious question.

I'm beginning to think that you want to be everyone's mother.

No, I've just had the past fortune (or misfortune) of being able to view this problem from the perspective of someone who is directly affected by the inconsideration of smokers who feel a sense of self-entitlement when it comes to imposing the consequences of their habit onto others. And I'm merely expressing that viewpoint.

[FishingRod]

So far this has been a relatively civilized discussion. You should see some of the other smoking nazi threads around these parts.

Shut-up Mr. poopy pants, LOL

[Mr. Plow]

No, I've just had the past fortune (or misfortune) of being able to view this problem from the perspective of someone who is directly affected by the inconsideration of smokers who feel a sense of self-entitlement when it comes to imposing the consequences of their habit onto others. And I'm merely expressing that viewpoint.


ROFL


You make it sound like every smoker is going out of their way to make your life miserable.

[sedated]

If that were the case then the owners of those failed businesses should all turn their bars into private clubs and prosper.

that was the intention. They were the first to pass the smoking ban in Johnson County, so most of the bars there switched to private clubs. But everyone preferred to drive to other nearby cities so they didn't have to deal with the hassle.

Then the other cities passed a similar smoking ban, but didn't allow the exception for private clubs, so everyone went back to the Olathe bars.

[penchief]

How do you reconcile that platitude with your view that a business and property owner should not be allowed to choose whether smoking should be allowed in his establishment?

If he has a liscence to serve the general public that means that he has a responsibility to the general public and not just to smokers. Since the general public consists of both smokers and non-smokers, that liscence should require that the health of non-smokers not be jeopardized by frequenting the owner's establishment. If the owner is not willing to accomodate the health and well-being of the general public then he has the option of running a private establishment that is not open to the general public. JMO.

[penchief]

Except for the fact that smokers are now told they can't smoke outside..

I honestly think that has more to do with the fact that they leave a trail of nastiness wherever they go. I personally don't have an issue with smoking outside as long as smokers don't think that God placed somebody else on this earth to follow after them and clean up their filth.

[penchief]

That will teach you to sit in front of ENDelt, Bowser, and I.

Actually, two of them were females.

[Brock]

If he has a liscence to serve the general public that means that he has a responsibility to the general public and not just to smokers. Since the general public consists of both smokers and non-smokers, that liscence should require that the health of non-smokers not be jeopardized by frequenting the owner's establishment. If the owner is not willing to accomodate the health and well-being of the general public then he has the option of running a private establishment that is not open to the general public. JMO.

Is he responsible for you driving your car into a pole because of the beer he sold you? Seriously, you are being completely absurd.

[Dartgod]

If he has a liscence to serve the general public that means that he has a responsibility to the general public and not just to smokers. Since the general public consists of both smokers and non-smokers, that liscence should require that the health of non-smokers not be jeopardized by frequenting the owner's establishment. If the owner is not willing to accomodate the health and well-being of the general public then he has the option of running a private establishment that is not open to the general public. JMO.
Someone who acts as intelligent as you do should know that it's "license", not "liscense".

[sedated]

If the owner is not willing to accomodate the health and well-being of the general public then he has the option of running a private establishment that is not open to the general public. JMO.

no, he/she doesn't. Private clubs are not exempt from the smoking ban in most cities (around me at least)

A business owner should always have the abiliy to run their business as they wish; they are paying the bills and dealing with the consequences. If they want to say "if they don't like it they can go elsewhere", then they should be able to.

I've been to bars where they chose to let people smoke after the ban, they thought it was in there company's best interest to let the patrons decide for themselves, and thought the additional profit would make up for the fines, until the government threatened to shut them down completely.

[FAX]

If you're on the golf course and lightning strikes you and your pants burst into flame and you have to run like hell to the nearest water hazard to put yourself out, would that count as smoking?

FAX

[kstater]

no, he/she doesn't. Private clubs are not exempt from the smoking ban in most cities (around me at least)



I work at a private club, it is not exempt from the smoking ban in this city. One that wasn't voted on by the public.

[seclark]

If you're on the golf course and lightning strikes you and your pants burst into flame and you have to run like hell to the nearest water hazard to put yourself out, would that count as smoking?

FAX

only if that's a cigar in your pocket, and you're not happy to see me.
sec

[Dartgod]

If you're on the golf course and lightning strikes you and your pants burst into flame and you have to run like hell to the nearest water hazard to put yourself out, would that count as smoking?

FAX
Only if you have a Cohiba in your pocket.

[Dartgod]

only if that's a cigar in your pocket, and you're not happy to see me.
sec
Dammit!

[FAX]

only if that's a cigar in your pocket, and you're not happy to see me.
sec

Well, okay. But I can see why people wouldn't want to expose their children to flaming golfers.

FAX

[seclark]

Dammit!

cohiba was a nicer touch, if it's any help.
sec

[penchief]

ROFL


You make it sound like every smoker is going out of their way to make your life miserable.

No, but when the person who is affected has to deal with smokers every day and that measns dealing with the same arrogant disrespect of certain smokers, it can open one's eyes to the fact that alot of smokers can be pretty selfish by not appreciating the impact that their smoking and their littering have on other people, their jobs, and/or their responsibilities.

[kstater]

No, but when the person who is affected has to deal with smokers every day and that measns dealing with the same arrogant disrespect of certain smokers, it can open one's eyes to the fact that alot of smokers can be pretty selfish by not appreciating the impact that their smoking and their littering have on other people, their jobs, and/or their responsibilities.

Have you gotten checked for cancer recently?

[smittysbar]

No silly. My internship required doing actual research rather than relying on hearsay as to why some dude's bar failed. Most people are going to look for reasons other than their own poor management as to why they had to shut the doors. I'm sure that the smoking ban is a convenient excuse for anybody who wants to justify shutting down a bar.

The data that is available to even you will show that businesses accross the board have done better as a result of more patronage. The reason? Smokers have adapted and non-smokers are more likely to go out. Smokers didn't just stop going out to bars. I'll need to see same data to back up the claim. And I seriously doubt that those businesses failed because everybody's joining the Moose Club. I mean com'n. If that were the case then the owners of those failed businesses should all turn their bars into private clubs and prosper.

Your research sucks ass, or you would know that when these ordinances are written that they put in them that if you were not an established private club before a certain date, that you will not be grandfathered in. (in most cases, so that bars can't get around it)

You are way off on this, and just keep making yourself look dumb. I guess you still don't understand what a cash business means either, you show me a bar that shows a ton of profit, and I will point out the dumbass.

[RJ]

Are any of you ****ers smoking now?

This is public forum, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.


Is anyone here allergic to nuts?

[FAX]

Is anyone here allergic to nuts?

I am, Mr. RJ. Every time a crazy person walks in the room, I have to leave.

FAX

[DeezNutz]

Is anyone here allergic to nuts?

I'd be happy to offer up the use of my nut rag, if so.

[RJ]

I am, Mr. RJ. Every time a crazy person walks in the room, I have to leave.

FAX



Dang, as soon as you get comfortable.....

[Dartgod]

cohiba was a nicer touch, if it's any help.
sec
That's what took me longer to respond. I don't smoke stogies, so I had no idea what different styles/brands there are.

[Dartgod]

No, but when the person who is affected has to deal with smokers every day and that measns dealing with the same arrogant disrespect of certain smokers, it can open one's eyes to the fact that alot of smokers can be pretty selfish by not appreciating the impact that their smoking and their littering have on other people, their jobs, and/or their responsibilities.
There are inconsiderate drivers, shoppers, co-workers, etc, etc.....

I don't know what makes you think that inconsiderate, rude people is a monopoly held by smokers.

[seclark]

That's what took me longer to respond. I don't smoke stogies, so I had no idea what different styles/brands there are.

it was a lot better choice than say, "swisher sweet"?
sec

[Dartgod]

it was a lot better choice than say, "swisher sweet"?
sec
I know, that's why I had to consult Google before submitting my reply.:D