Pioli - Let's Go Tradin'

[Wilson8]

Looking over New England Patriots player transactions from the past few years, they've had some pretty successful trades with Scott Pioli as the player personnel man. They've moved up in the draft to acquire players. They've moved down in the draft to acquire draft picks. They've traded players that needed to move on. They've gone after players that they thought could improve the team.

[Mecca]

Ok...this team needs to build a core so don't expect any really odd moves right now.

If anything expect some guys people thought were part of the future to be let go, this team is at square one.

[Wilson8]

Have a need at a certain position? No problem –

The Patriots after finishing 27th in rushing in 2003 determined they needed an upgrade at running back. They found a running back that had averaged 1,200 yards per year and was 29 years old. On April 19th, New England acquired RB Corey Dillon from the Cincinnati Bengals for a 2004 second round draft pick (56). The Bengals used that pick for DB Madieu Williams. The Patriots inherited the remaining two seasons on the five-year contract Dillon signed in 2001. It had base salaries of $3.3 million for 2004 and $3.85 million for '05.

New England wanted a kick returner/wide receiver and they make a trade with their division rival, Miami Dolphins. On March 5, 2007, the Patriots make a trade for Wes Welker for a 2nd round (60) and a 7th round pick. Miami uses the 2nd round pick for center Sampson Satele and the 7th round pick for LB Abraham Wright. This year Miami is looking for a replacement for Satele at center and they have already cut Wright. This has turned into a lopsided trade for Welker, who has piled up 223 receptions for 2,240 yards in two seasons.

The same year the Patriots wanted another wide receiver, looked around, and found the Oakland Raiders wanting to trade Randy Moss. They worked out a trade for a 2007 4th round (110) draft pick during the weekend draft. With the draft choice acquired in the deal, Oakland picked Cincinnati cornerback John Bowie. As a condition of the trade, Moss agreed to restructure and extend his contract for cash-flow and salary cap reasons. Moss’s contract was for base salaries of $9.75 million in 2007 and $11.25 million in 2008.

[Wilson8]

Have some players that need to move on? No problem –

After Tom Brady’s success in 2001, New England found themselves with their former starting QB, Drew Bledsoe, and looking for trade partners before the 2002 draft. Trade stories swirled for weeks, with the Patriots firm about receiving first-round compensation in the 2002 draft, and no teams making that offer. On Friday, just before the draft, Buffalo offered a conditional 2003 first-round pick in a fax sent to New England. That proposal was rejected. The offer called for the Patriots to receive a first-round pick if Bledsoe played in at least 12 games and the Bills made the playoffs. The pick would have reverted to a second-round selection if the Bills didn't make the playoffs. New England rejected that offer. On the second day of the draft, the Bills agreed to trade their 1st round 2003 draft pick for Drew Bledsoe. Bledsoe’s 10 year, $103 million went with him.

In 2002 the Patriots had talented but troubled WR Terry Glenn. Terry had been suspended for 4 games during the 2003 season for substance abuse and suspended by Coach Bill Belichick for one game and the playoffs for missing practice. On March 8, 2002, the Packers gave the Patriots a 4th round pick (117) in the 2002 draft and a conditional pick in 2003 dependent on Glenn's performance.

In 2003 the Patriots placed the franchise tag on their safety Tebucky Jones. Then a week before the draft on April 14th they traded Jones to the New Orleans Saints for a third round pick (78) and seventh-round pick (239) in the 2003 draft, as well as a fourth round pick in the 2004 draft (113).

In 2006 the New England Patriots had disgruntled, 27 year old wide receiver, Deion Branch that was demanding to be traded. Deion was unhappy with his $1.045 million per season contract as the Patriots leading receiver. On August 25, 2006 the Patriots gave Deion and his agent permission to do a sign and trade with another team. The first team, the New York Jets offered a 2nd round pick for Deion. This was rejected by New England which prompted the NFLPA to file a grievance on behalf of Branch stating they had negotiated in good faith. On September 11th, New England completed a trade with the Seattle Seahawks for Seattle’s 2007, 1st round draft pick.

[Mecca]

Those are examples of how a winning team with an established core and leadership took on 2 problem players...

The Chiefs aren't in that spot right now.

[Wilson8]

Have a need to move up in the draft ?

Ok an example of a draft day trade to move into position to get the player that they want. In 2003 the Patriots traded a first round pick in 2003 (14) and a 2003 six round pick (193) to Chicago for their first round pick (13). The then they draft DE/DT Ty Warren with that pick.

Another - The Patriots traded a first round pick in 2003 (19) to Baltimore for a 2003 second round pick (41) and their 2004 first round pick (21) and then use that pick for DT Vince Wilfork.

[Wilson8]

This year they moved down but still got good value. 2008 - Acquired from the New Orleans Saints on April 26, 2008 along with a third-round selected in the 2008 NFL Draft (78th overall) in exchange for a first-round selection in the 2008 NFL Draft (7th overall - DT Sedrick Ellis) and a fifth-round selection in the 2008 NFL Draft (164th overall) Selected Tennessee LB Jerod Mayo with 10th pick and Michigan LB Shawn Crable with 3rd round pick. New England had 2 5th round picks and just gave up one of those

[DaneMcCloud]

JFC.

This shit isn't going to end until May, is it?

[Wilson8]

In earlier threads I tried to document how Scott Pioli has used free agency and how he has used the draft. Here I'm trying to show he also uses the "trading tool" pretty well and we should expect that in the years to come.

[DaneMcCloud]

In earlier threads I tried to document how Scott Pioli has used free agency and how he has used the draft. Here I'm trying to show he also uses the "trading tool" pretty well and we should expect that in the years to come.

The team that Pioli & Belichick inherited was FAR more talented than the team he inherited in Kansas City. Unless the Chiefs are just moving a spot or two in the second and third rounds (unlikely), I'd be shocked to see any trades in 2009.

They need all the high-level talent they can acquire and generally speaking, moving down does not get you better players.

[kcxiv]

I dont think the Chiefs are at square one. That was last year, but we are still fairly close to it lol. We got alot of young guys that can be impact players, but we still need somemore no doubt.

[Chiefshrink]

If there are 3 things I see with Pioli's ways they as follows:

1.Uncovering gems

2.Will never overpay and always gets value via trade/draft

3.Always holds his cards close to the vest- Pioli will absolutely just frustrate the sh** out of the KC Media- McDaniels here in Denver is following the same policy and is driving the sports media nuts. Fun to watch the Denver Fans realize they are in rebuild mode as well especially with the Goodmans firings today.

[Mecca]

I dont think the Chiefs are at square one. That was last year, but we are still fairly close to it lol. We got alot of young guys that can be impact players, but we still need somemore no doubt.

This is pretty much square one...

[Wilson8]

I agree, there are a lot of differences between the 2000 - 2008 Patriots and the 2009 Chiefs. What I am saying is the football brain trust in New England used trades to their advantage and when it makes sense, we will see it used wisely in KC.

Sorry have to say this...don't be surpised if KC trades for Matt Cassel.

[melbar]

Just finishing Patriot Reign. I thought it was interesting that they had extra picks they viewed those extra picks at currency to move up or down to get their guys. they had 13 picks and the interesting quote was that they didnt want near that many players.

[melbar]

if I can get the time soon, I'd love to do a book report on some of the finer points. Great read. includes the 4 attributes for a franchise QB

[Mecca]

Just finishing Patriot Reign. I thought it was interesting that they had extra picks they viewed those extra picks at currency to move up or down to get their guys. they had 13 picks and the interesting quote was that they didnt want near that many players.

I'm not sure the rookie cap would ever allow you to sign 13 picks, but the truth is good teams don't have room for 13 rookies.

[RustShack]

Why don't you look at moves before Brady emerged and the Patriots won the Super Bowl? Oh wait, Pioli didn't have that position when they did that.

[Wilson8]

Just to show that not all of his moves have been gems...

The Patriots traded a second round pick in the 2006 draft (52nd overall - WR Greg Jennings) and a third round pick in the 2006 draft (75th overall - C Jason Spitz) to the Green Bay Packers in exchange for a second round pick in the 2006 draft (36th overall - WR Chad Jackson)

Probably like to have a do over on that one.

[Mecca]

Yea well alot of people had Chad Jackson as the #1 WR in that class.

[FAX]

It seems as though a lot of peeps are really concerned about drafting and trading for the skill positions. For my part, I'm hoping they focus on building this thing inside-out and get our lines put together. I'll go to my grave believing that, without solid, dependable, highly competitive lines, you hold back the development of any skill positions (and the team as a whole) making the entire exercise almost moot.

One of the reasons we had to migrate to the spread (and attempt the sloption before that) was because our damned line couldn't pass block for longer than one Mississippi. Before we do much of anything else, we need to get that corrected.

FAX

[ChiefsCountry]

One of the reasons we had to migrate to the spread (and attempt the sloption before that) was because our damned line couldn't pass block for longer than one Mississippi. Before we do much of anything else, we need to get that corrected.

FAX

Actually the sack number went up when we went to the spread. It was more bc Thiggy sucked balls in a regular NFL offense.

[Mecca]

The spread doesn't help your line...if you were trying to help the line you'd go double TE and max protect.

[J Diddy]

The spread doesn't help your line...if you were trying to help the line you'd go double TE and max protect.

that doesn't help your line. that makes you one dimensional and easy to defend. Spread helps your line in that quick hitting passes replace the running game.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

To OP:

In the words of Christian Bale, "What don't you fuckin' understand?"

[FAX]

Okay, I'm tired, Mr. ChiefsCountry, and can't discuss this properly now, but tomorrow I'll attempt to argue that the sack numbers may well have gone up because A) We threw the ball much more and B) Thigpen was learning the position and C) Thigpen often tended to run with the ball when pressured (when tackled behind the line, it's counted as a sack.)

As for the spread not helping your line, Mr. Mecca, we'll have to cogitate on that, too, I suppose. We were getting the ball out early and the faster the better - ostensibly because the pass blocking was piss poor. The spread helped Thigpen and the receivers do that.

FAX THE GONE

[Saccopoo]

It seems as though a lot of peeps are really concerned about drafting and trading for the skill positions. For my part, I'm hoping they focus on building this thing inside-out and get our lines put together.

Money.

Three things a successful football team has:

1. Good quarterback
2. Protection for said quarterback
3. Pressure from the front seven without relying on blitzes

Good quarterback beats great coverage if they have the time, every time. Which relates to item #2. Item #3 helps minimize the opponents items #1 and #2.

You got those three things, you've got a chance to win the game every single time. Every other position is gravy. Good quarterbacks make average receivers look great. Good front seven makes average secondaries look good.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Money.

Three things a successful football team has:

1. Good quarterback
2. Protection for said quarterback
3. Pressure from the front seven without relying on blitzes

Good quarterback beats great coverage if they have the time, every time. Which relates to item #2. Item #3 helps minimize the opponents items #1 and #2.

You got those three things, you've got a chance to win the game every single time. Every other position is gravy. Good quarterbacks make average receivers look great. Good front seven makes average secondaries look good.

And yet, despite the fact that we have the one guy who would be worth our pick for option 2, and no one of worth is there for option 3, half the board is clamoring for us to take a guy that does none of those three things.

[Mecca]

that doesn't help your line. that makes you one dimensional and easy to defend. Spread helps your line in that quick hitting passes replace the running game.

Say we're playing a video game, if my DE is killing your OT, are you going to lineup in shotgun 4 wide?

[keg in kc]

It seems as though a lot of peeps are really concerned about drafting and trading for the skill positions. For my part, I'm hoping they focus on building this thing inside-out and get our lines put together. I'll go to my grave believing that, without solid, dependable, highly competitive lines, you hold back the development of any skill positions (and the team as a whole) making the entire exercise almost moot.This is how I'd approach it: solidify the center (brown from the Ravens) and as much of the right side of the line as possible in free agency, along with a linebacker or two depending on who's available. Draft Stafford or Sanchez (assuming he grades out well by the scouting department) at 3, a pass rusher in the 2nd, and then go for the best quality picks thereafter regardless of position.

Because I look at a top 5 pick as a one you use to fill key areas on the team. That's quarterback, left tackle, receiver and passing rushing end. We have left tackle and receiver covered. There aren't any high calibre, top-5 level pass rushers in this draft (in my opinion). That leaves quarterback. Hopefully Stafford falls (I doubt it). If not, then we're left with the Sanchez gamble, a trade down, using the pick on a lower rated pass rusher or a position that isn't what I consider a premium (i.e. one that can be addressed later in the draft, like CB, RB, LB).

The key positions, eventually, are all going to have to be draft picks, because franchise-calibre free agents just don't get let go. So we can't fix everything in a single offseason, but I think we can be a stronger team in 2009 than most people expect if things fall the right way. Competitive, at the very least. They have the money to make some waves and they draft high.

[Wilson8]

I will agree with you on many of your points. If the Chiefs could fill the needs that you list, they would certainly be a better team. I’d like to have Brown but he will not come cheap and there is a pretty good selection of centers in the NFL draft. I think the Chiefs should use the draft to get the man they need for the middle of their line.

When BB and Scott Pioli first came to New England they had center Damien Woody. In 2003 the Patriots used one of their “traded for” draft picks and selected Dan Koppen with a 5th round (164) pick. Koppen has come in and replaced Woody, who got injured that year. New England never looked back and Damien Woody went to the Detroit Lions as a free agent in 2004. Dan Koppen, except for a 2005 injury, has been the rock in the middle for the Patriots.

[MahiMike]

Yep, Larry and Tony will make a nice amount of picks for us. Will even make up for what we give for Cassel.

[Wilson8]

I thought this information was interesting about franchising and trading.

“In 2003 the Patriots placed the franchise tag on their safety Tebucky Jones. Then a week before the draft on April 14th they traded Jones to the New Orleans Saints for a third round pick (78) and seventh-round pick (239) in the 2003 draft, as well as a fourth round pick in the 2004 draft (113).”

If the Chiefs could do a something like this for Cassel, it might be worth considering. I’m not a “trade for Matt Cassel” guy or a “we got to draft a QB in the first round” person. I want the Chiefs to look at all of their options and make the best choice for the team.

The truth is, I think there will be some team that offers up a 1st round pick for Cassel and I think that is too expensive.

[the Talking Can]

This is how I'd approach it: solidify the center (brown from the Ravens) and as much of the right side of the line as possible in free agency, along with a linebacker or two depending on who's available. Draft Stafford or Sanchez (assuming he grades out well by the scouting department) at 3, a pass rusher in the 2nd, and then go for the best quality picks thereafter regardless of position.

Because I look at a top 5 pick as a one you use to fill key areas on the team. That's quarterback, left tackle, receiver and passing rushing end. We have left tackle and receiver covered. There aren't any high calibre, top-5 level pass rushers in this draft (in my opinion). That leaves quarterback. Hopefully Stafford falls (I doubt it). If not, then we're left with the Sanchez gamble, a trade down, using the pick on a lower rated pass rusher or a position that isn't what I consider a premium (i.e. one that can be addressed later in the draft, like CB, RB, LB).

The key positions, eventually, are all going to have to be draft picks, because franchise-calibre free agents just don't get let go. So we can't fix everything in a single offseason, but I think we can be a stronger team in 2009 than most people expect if things fall the right way. Competitive, at the very least. They have the money to make some waves and they draft high.

way too smart to be posting here.....

your first paragraph is word for word what I'm hoping to see....

[Amnorix]

Have a need at a certain position? No problem –

The Patriots after finishing 27th in rushing in 2003 determined they needed an upgrade at running back. They found a running back that had averaged 1,200 yards per year and was 29 years old. On April 19th, New England acquired RB Corey Dillon from the Cincinnati Bengals for a 2004 second round draft pick (56). The Bengals used that pick for DB Madieu Williams. The Patriots inherited the remaining two seasons on the five-year contract Dillon signed in 2001. It had base salaries of $3.3 million for 2004 and $3.85 million for '05.

New England wanted a kick returner/wide receiver and they make a trade with their division rival, Miami Dolphins. On March 5, 2007, the Patriots make a trade for Wes Welker for a 2nd round (60) and a 7th round pick. Miami uses the 2nd round pick for center Sampson Satele and the 7th round pick for LB Abraham Wright. This year Miami is looking for a replacement for Satele at center and they have already cut Wright. This has turned into a lopsided trade for Welker, who has piled up 223 receptions for 2,240 yards in two seasons.

The same year the Patriots wanted another wide receiver, looked around, and found the Oakland Raiders wanting to trade Randy Moss. They worked out a trade for a 2007 4th round (110) draft pick during the weekend draft. With the draft choice acquired in the deal, Oakland picked Cincinnati cornerback John Bowie. As a condition of the trade, Moss agreed to restructure and extend his contract for cash-flow and salary cap reasons. Moss’s contract was for base salaries of $9.75 million in 2007 and $11.25 million in 2008.



Actually, the best example might be the trade for Ted Washington. We had a horrible 2002 season defensively. At the start of 2003 training camp, after bringing in some FAs and whatnot, it was clear that we still were going to suck due to a complete lack of interior run defense.

Hello Chicago Bears and Ted Washington, and hello 2003 Super Bowl Championship!

[Wilson8]

This is a good year for free agent linebackers. Given Pioli's past experience with bringing in FA linebackers, there is a good chance of that happening in KC. Probably not the more expensive ones though.

[Wilson8]

Actually, the best example might be the trade for Ted Washington. We had a horrible 2002 season defensively. At the start of 2003 training camp, after bringing in some FAs and whatnot, it was clear that we still were going to suck due to a complete lack of interior run defense.

Hello Chicago Bears and Ted Washington, and hello 2003 Super Bowl Championship!

I actually had that as another example too. I was getting a lot of negative comments last night though, so I stopped posting my other examples of trades. I hope I made my point though, that New England has used the trade to strenghen their team. I think Scott learned from that experience and will use it in KC.

[Wilson8]

Many people have the Chiefs picking LB Aaron Curry since he is the best LB and New England had such success with drafting LB Jerod Mayo. But remember NE actually traded down and drafted Jerod and their past history has been to draft lower round LBs and bring in FAs.

I will also say this though, you have to be careful of trying to anticipate player moves based on the Patriots past moves. As was talked about earlier, the Chiefs and Patriots are not the same team. I really believe that the new Chiefs football brain trust will do their moves based off of KC needs. So in other word, it is interesting seeing past history, but be careful how you use it.

[Wilson8]

Some writers have said that KC will wait to later rounds to draft a QB (Patriots way) or they would never draft a center with their 2nd round pick because New England never did that. The Patriots never needed to draft a QB in the first round. They had Bledsoe and then they had Brady. They never needed a center since they had Woody and then they had Koppen. Keg put together a pretty good list of player needs for the Chiefs. The Chiefs will use the draft, free agency, and perhaps even a trade to fill those needs.

[Wilson8]

If the Chiefs switched to a 3-4 defense, what would that do to the Chiefs player needs? Could Tamba Hali, Turk McBride, or Brian Johnston fit into that defense? How each player fits into the defense or offense selected might make a difference on who might be used in a trade. Also switching to a 3-4 might mean we need to go after a big NT to plug up the middle.

[Gdaddy]

Concern:

If the Chiefs trade Larry Johnson (or release him), who will be our running back? Jamaal Charles cant be a full time back so I would think that would be a huge focus. Has anyone considered taking Knoshawn Moreno with the third pick? I dont believe he is worthy that high of a pick but we will obviously need a back. Are there any good free agents we could pick up in the back field?

[chiefzilla1501]

It seems as though a lot of peeps are really concerned about drafting and trading for the skill positions. For my part, I'm hoping they focus on building this thing inside-out and get our lines put together. I'll go to my grave believing that, without solid, dependable, highly competitive lines, you hold back the development of any skill positions (and the team as a whole) making the entire exercise almost moot.

One of the reasons we had to migrate to the spread (and attempt the sloption before that) was because our damned line couldn't pass block for longer than one Mississippi. Before we do much of anything else, we need to get that corrected.

FAX

I 100% agree. If there was any wish I had for the Chiefs, it would be to become solid on both lines. The good news is, on the offensive line, our key holes are not on so-called "skill positions." Right tackles, guards, and centers are usually available at a very high value in the 2nd or 3rd round, and they are the most likely to hit the free agent market. So the Chiefs can still load up on linemen without having to spend a high pick.

I'm also in the school that you can't pass up on an elite pass rusher like Mario Williams--one who you know can rush the passer and still hold up against the run. The bad news is, unless Orakpo has an insanely good combine, I can't justify taking him in the top 5.

I'm not a huge fan of taking a QB for the sake of taking a QB. And you all know how I feel about trading down, even though most people don't like the idea for some reason. But if the Chiefs stay still, this is unfortunately too weak a draft class to take anything but a QB. That's the way it's turning out at least. The only other guy that could be on the radar is Curry.

[chiefzilla1501]

If the Chiefs switched to a 3-4 defense, what would that do to the Chiefs player needs? Could Tamba Hali, Turk McBride, or Brian Johnston fit into that defense? How each player fits into the defense or offense selected might make a difference on who might be used in a trade. Also switching to a 3-4 might mean we need to go after a big NT to plug up the middle.

We are not that far off. Turk and Johnston would actually be great fits for the defense as they're both pretty big for a typical DE. I actually think Turk could be a monster in a 3-4. Nose tackle and DE/OLB become top priority. Nose tackle you have to be really careful and you have to make sure you bring in top-flight talent--it's arguably one of the tougher positions to find. DE/OLB is actually pretty easy and the ease of finding that guy is exactly the reason why most teams convert to a 3-4.

I'm hoping they start running a 3-4. I think that DE has become the toughest position to find, simply because you need not one, not two, but three stud DEs to make your defense outstanding.

[beach tribe]

I agree, there are a lot of differences between the 2000 - 2008 Patriots and the 2009 Chiefs. What I am saying is the football brain trust in New England used trades to their advantage and when it makes sense, we will see it used wisely in KC.

Sorry have to say this...don't be surpised if KC trades for Matt Cassel.

Don't be surprised if they don't. Not only is Pioli doing the trading, but he'd be doing it with the Pats, and I think they would want more than Pioli would be willing to give JMO.

They will be able to get more for him from someone else I believe.

[beach tribe]

Concern:

If the Chiefs trade Larry Johnson (or release him), who will be our running back? Jamaal Charles cant be a full time back so I would think that would be a huge focus. Has anyone considered taking Knoshawn Moreno with the third pick? I dont believe he is worthy that high of a pick but we will obviously need a back. Are there any good free agents we could pick up in the back field?

Absotively Posolutely not.

RB should not be picked high until you have built an entire team. They should be the last piece of the puzzle, and that's if you want to spend a high pick on a RB at all.

[Wilson8]

On the subject of improving the right side of offensive line, I think if they can improve center, right guard or right tackle, it improves the player next to them. When Rudy is getting pushed back it creates a hole for the man that Smith or Jones was blocking at right guard. If we can improve two of the positions on the right side, we might have a decent offensive line. So if we can draft a good center and either sign Brown for right guard or maybe Vernon Carey at right tackle, we could be looking pretty good.

[Pioli Zombie]

Have a need to move up in the draft ?

Ok an example of a draft day trade to move into position to get the player that they want. In 2003 the Patriots traded a first round pick in 2003 (14) and a 2003 six round pick (193) to Chicago for their first round pick (13). The then they draft DE/DT Ty Warren with that pick.

Another - The Patriots traded a first round pick in 2003 (19) to Baltimore for a 2003 second round pick (41) and their 2004 first round pick (21) and then use that pick for DT Vince Wilfork.


That was my favorite example of the Patriots front office brilliance. That day they essentially traded Drew Bledsoe and Kyle Boller ( who Baltimore picked at 19) for Ty Warren, Vince Wilfork, and Eugene Wilson.

[melbar]

LJ isnt going anywhere. They had a report this morning that a trade would cost us 8 mil. against the cap, and a release would cost 12 million. Unless he can voluntarily revoke his very large contract, we cant afford to dump him.

[OnTheWarpath15]

if I can get the time soon, I'd love to do a book report on some of the finer points. Great read. includes the 4 attributes for a franchise QB

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=200405&highlight=patriot

[whoman69]

The Chiefs need a lot of players right now. Trading for extra picks makes sense. If Carl was here we'd just waste those picks on players that could have been drafted 2 rounds later. I expect Pioli to make better choices in draft value. If Pioli had wanted Kawika Mitchell he would have traded down in round 2 to get more picks and then drafted him in round 4 where he should have been drafted. Same with Kenyaron Fox and any number of other picks that CP pulled the trigger too early on. CP never thought that highly of draft picks because he could never get that much value out of them. Pioli values draft picks more because he can get more out of them.

[kcbubb]

If there are 3 things I see with Pioli's ways they as follows:

1.Uncovering gems

2.Will never overpay and always gets value via trade/draft

3.Always holds his cards close to the vest- Pioli will absolutely just frustrate the sh** out of the KC Media- McDaniels here in Denver is following the same policy and is driving the sports media nuts. Fun to watch the Denver Fans realize they are in rebuild mode as well especially with the Goodmans firings today.

reason #2 is why Sanchez will not be drafted.

[penguinz]

LJ isnt going anywhere. They had a report this morning that a trade would cost us 8 mil. against the cap, and a release would cost 12 million. Unless he can voluntarily revoke his very large contract, we cant afford to dump him.He is going to cost 8M agaisnt the cap if he stays. There is minimal difference in his cap cost if he stays or is traded.

[Reerun_KC]

reason #2 is why Sanchez will not be drafted.

And you know this how?

[philfree]

He is going to cost 8M agaisnt the cap if he stays. There is minimal difference in his cap cost if he stays or is traded.


And we have like $45mil of cap space.

PhilFree:arrow:

[kcbubb]

The spread doesn't help your line...if you were trying to help the line you'd go double TE and max protect.

wow. I can't believe you said that. are you serious??? the spread doesn't help the o-line???

the spread helps the o-line because they don't have to protect as long. the spread helps the QB get rid of the ball quicker. it is easier for a QB to read coverages and much more difficult for a defense to move right before the snap because they have to cover a greater distance, because the spread spreads them out.

[chiefzilla1501]

reason #2 is why Sanchez will not be drafted.

If Sanchez ends up being a franchise QB, you're not overpaying.

If Sanchez or Stafford are franchise QBs, there is no reason to pass up on them. But I'm one of the few that is not 100% sold yet. I think they both have a lot to prove during the evaluation process. Sanchez especially--and keep in mind that I like Sanchez and would rather have him than Stafford.

[Coogs]

I know I am alone on this, but I still think the Chiefs should move up to #1 if they deem either of these two QB's to be significantly better than the other one.

Our #3 and #34 pick are worth 2770 points... and several million dollars in savings to the Lions. That would leave the Lions with #3, #20, #33, #34, #65, and #82 in the first three rounds, plus the first pick in round #4.

[kcbubb]

And you know this how?

let's reverse that question on you. why do you think Sanchez is the #3 best player out of college football that is ready to play in the NFL?

I just don't think there is enough reasons for him to be #3.

[kcbubb]

If Sanchez ends up being a franchise QB, you're not overpaying.

If Sanchez or Stafford are franchise QBs, there is no reason to pass up on them. But I'm one of the few that is not 100% sold yet. I think they both have a lot to prove during the evaluation process. Sanchez especially--and keep in mind that I like Sanchez and would rather have him than Stafford.

I don't think Sanchez is a #3 value because he has not shown enough to be valued that high. If he ends up being a franchise QB, you are correct there is no question that he would be a steal. But that is the big question. How good will he be? I don't think he has shown enough to be picked that high.

[DaneMcCloud]

LJ isnt going anywhere. They had a report this morning that a trade would cost us 8 mil. against the cap, and a release would cost 12 million. Unless he can voluntarily revoke his very large contract, we cant afford to dump him.

$8.2 to stay, $8.8 to be released or traded.

I've told you this before but apparently, you don't read.

[DaneMcCloud]

let's reverse that question on you. why do you think Sanchez is the #3 best player out of college football that is ready to play in the NFL?

I just don't think there is enough reasons for him to be #3.

Yay! kcbubb is here to tell us that a QB he's seen play in two games isn't ready for the NFL.

Thanks!

:shake:

[chiefzilla1501]

wow. I can't believe you said that. are you serious??? the spread doesn't help the o-line???

the spread helps the o-line because they don't have to protect as long. the spread helps the QB get rid of the ball quicker. it is easier for a QB to read coverages and much more difficult for a defense to move right before the snap because they have to cover a greater distance, because the spread spreads them out.

The most compelling reason is that spread offenses are designed to spread defenders out, which means that you're taking a lot of defenders out of the box. When there are less defenders in the box, a team is limited in the amount of blitz packages they can put together. And when you have 4 or 5 receivers spread out, you have a lot of passing lanes which means that LBs and safeties are more likely to drop back in coverage than blitz. In other words, spread offenses = less blitzing.

In the trenches, pretty simple--as soon as the ball is snapped, the QB is already dropped back. That means that d-linemen have to get to him quicker. More importantly, it means the QB can make a quick decision about moving if a linemen screws up his block. When a QB is dropping back from under center and a DE is already collapsing on him, he's fucked, because the QB is moving backward. But in the shotgun, the QB gets a head start on the pursuing DE and because his feet are planted it's easier for him to quickly move in one direction or the other.

[melbar]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=200405&highlight=patriot

There you go. I also found it interesting that part of their grade for players was how they stacked up against their current roster players.

[Wilson8]

2000 Draft and Trades (not sure how this will look since from spreadsheet)

RD ** **NAME*** ** PK ** POS ** **COLLEGE*** **
*2 ** *Adrian Klemm ** *46 ** *T ** *Hawaii **
*3 ** *J.R. Redmond ** *76 ** *RB ** *Arizona State **
*4 ** *Greg Robinson-Randall ** *127 ** *T ** *Michigan State ** *Compensatory Pick
*5a ** *Dave Stachelski ** *141 ** *TE ** *Boise State **
*5b ** *Jeff Marriott ** *161 ** *DE ** *Missouri ** *from St. Louis Rams for DE Mike Jones
*6a ** *Antwan Harris ** *187 ** *S ** *Virginia **
*6b ** *Tom Brady ** *199 ** *QB ** *Michigan ** *Compensatory Pick
*6c ** *David Nugent ** *201 ** *DE ** *Purdue ** *Compensatory Pick
*7a ** *Casey Tisdale ** *226 ** *OLB ** *New Mexico **
*7b ** *Patrick Pass ** *239 ** *FB ** *Georgia ** *Compensatory Pick
*4/16 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquire San Francisco’s 2001 sixth round pick for the Patriots’ 2000 seventh round pick (212 overall - Tim Rattay, QB, Louisiana Tech) which was acquired from Philadelphia.
*8/7 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquired Dane Looker from St. Louis Rams for a sixth round draft choice in 2002.

[Wilson8]

2001 Draft and Trades

RD ** **NAME*** ** PK ** POS ** **COLLEGE*** **
*1 ** *Richard Seymour ** *6 ** *DL ** *Georgia **
*2 ** *Matt Light ** *48 ** *T ** *Purdue ** *Choice from Detroit - (NE acquires Detroit's 2001 second round (48th overall - OL Matt Light) pick for the Patriots 2001 second round (50 overall, from Pittsburgh) pick and sixth round (173 overall, from San Francisco) pick).
*3 ** *Brock Williams ** *86 ** *CB ** *Notre Dame ** *Choice from Minnesota (NE trades third round selection – 69 overall to Minnesota for their third round pick – 86 overall and fourth round selection – 119 overall)
*4a ** *Kenyatta Jones ** *96 ** *T ** *South Florida ** *Choice from San Diego (NE trades fourth round selection – 112 overall and fifth round selection – 139 overall to San Diego for their fourth round pick – 96th overall)
*4b ** *Jabari Holloway ** *119 ** *TE ** *Notre Dame ** *(Choice from Minnesota in previously mentioned trade)
*5 ** *Hakim Akbar ** *163 ** *SS ** *Washington ** *Compensatory Pick
*6a ** *Arther Love ** *180 ** *TE ** *South Carolina State ** *Choice from Detroit (NE trades fifth round selection – 149 overall to Detroit for their sixth round pick – 180 overall and their seventh round pick – 216 overall)
*6b ** *Leonard Myers ** *200 ** *CB ** *Miami (Fla.) ** *Compensatory Pick
*7a ** *Owen Pochman ** *216 ** *K ** *BYU ** *(Choice from Detroit in previously mentioned trade)
*7b ** *T.J. Turner ** *239 ** *LB ** *Michigan State ** *Compensatory Pick
*4/21 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquired Pittsburgh’s 2001 second round (50 overall) and fourth round (112 overall) picks for the Patriots 2001 second round (39 overall – LB Kendrell Bell) pick.
** ** ** ** ** The Patriots acquire Detroit’s 2001 second round (48th overall – T Matt Light) pick for the Patriots 2001 second round (50 overall, from Pittsburgh) pick and sixth round (173 overall, from San Francisco) pick.
** ** ** ** ** The Patriots acquire Minnesota’s 2001 third round (86 overall – CB Brock Williams) pick and fourth round (119 overall – TE Jabari Holloway) pick for the Patriots third round (69 overall – DB Eric Kelly) pick.
*4/22 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquire San Diego’s 2001 fourth round (96 overall – OL Kenyatta Jones) pick for the Patriots fourth round (112 overall – LB Carlos Polk) and fifth round (139 overall – LB Zeke Moreno) pick.
** ** ** ** ** The Patriots acquire Detroit’s 2001 sixth round (180 overall – TE Arther Love) and seventh round (216 overall – K Owen Pochman) pick for the Patriots 2001 fifth round (149 overall, from NY Jets) pick.
** ** ** ** ** The Patriots acquire Jacksonville’s 2002 fifth round pick for the Patriots 2001 sixth round (170th overall – G Chad Ward) pick.

[Wilson8]

2002 Draft and Trades

RD ** **NAME*** ** PK ** POS ** **COLLEGE*** **
*1 ** *Daniel Graham ** *21 ** *TE ** *Colorado ** *Choice was acquired from Washington for the Patriots first round pick (32nd overall), third round pick (96th) and seventh round pick (234th) of the 2002 draft.
*2 ** *Deion Branch ** *65 ** *WR ** *Louisville **
*4a ** *Rohan Davey ** *117 ** *QB ** *Louisiana State ** *Choice obtained from the Denver Broncos in exchange for the Patriots 2002 fourth round pick (131st overall) and fifth round (144th).
*4b ** *Jarvis Green ** *126 ** *DL ** *Louisiana State ** *Choice was acquired from Green Bay for WR Terry Glenn.
*7a ** *Antwoine Womack ** *237 ** *RB ** *Virginia ** *Pick obtained from the Dallas Cowboys, along with 2003 fifth round choice, in exchange for the Patriots 2002 fifth round pick (168th overall).
*7b ** *David Givens ** *253 ** *WR ** *Notre Dame **
*3/8 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots received Green Bay’s fourth round draft pick (117th overall – Jarvis Green) in the 2002 draft and a conditional pick in the 2003 draft for WR Terry Glenn.
*4/20 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquired the Washington Redskins first round pick (21st overall – Daniel Graham) of the 2002 draft in exchange for their 2002 first round pick (32nd overall), third round (96th overall) and seventh round (234th overall).
*4/21 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquired the Buffalo Bills 2003 first round choice in exchange for QB Drew Bledsoe.
** ** ** ** ** The Patriots acquired the Denver Broncos fourth round pick (117th overall – Rohan Davey) in exchange for their 2002 fourth round (131st overall) and fifth round (144th overall) choices.
** ** ** ** ** The Patriots obtained the Dallas Cowboys seventh round selection (237th overall – Antwoine Womack), along with 2003 fifth round choice, in exchange for the Patriots 2002 fifth round pick (168th overall).
*6/27 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots received an undisclosed future draft choice from St. Louis for LB Kole Ayi.

[Wilson8]

2003 Draft and Trades

2003 ** RD ** **NAME*** ** PK ** POS ** **COLLEGE*** **
2003 ** *1 ** *Ty Warren ** *13 ** *DL ** *Texas A&M ** *Pick acquired from Chicago for the Patriots 2003 first round pick (14 overall) and a 2003 sixth round pick (193 overall).
2003 ** *2a ** *Eugene Wilson ** *36 ** *DB ** *Illinois ** *Pick acquired from the Houston Texans along with a 2003 fourth round pick (117 overall) for a 2003 second round pick (41 overall) and a 2003 third round pick (75 overall).
2003 ** *2b ** *Bethel Johnson ** *45 ** *WR ** *Texas A&M ** *Pick acquired from the Carolina Panthers for a 2003 second round pick (50 overall) and a 2003 fourth round pick (120 overall).
2003 ** *4a ** *Dan Klecko ** *117 ** *DL ** *Temple ** *Pick acquired from the Houston Texans along with a 2003 second round pick (36 overall) for a 2003 second round pick (41 overall) and a 2003 third round pick (75 overall).
2003 ** *4b ** *Asante Samuel ** *120 ** *CB ** *Central Florida ** *Pick acquired from Denver for a 2003 fourth round pick (128 overall) and a 2003 fifth round pick (157 overall).
2003 ** *5 ** *Dan Koppen ** *164 ** *C ** *Boston College ** *Pick acquired from the Tennessee Titans along with a 2003 sixth round pick (201 overall) and a 2003 seventh round pick (243 overall) for the Patriots 2003 fifth round pick (154 overall) and a 2003 seventh round pick (225 overall).
2003 ** *6 ** *Kliff Kingsbury ** *201 ** *QB ** *Texas Tech ** *Pick aquired from Tennessee Titans along with 2003 fifth round pick (164 overall) and a 2003 seventh round pick (243 overall) for the Patriots 2003 fifth round pick (154 overall) and a 2003 seventh round pick (225 overall).
2003 ** *7a ** *Spencer Nead ** *234 ** *TE ** *BYU **
2003 ** *7b ** *Tully Banta-Cain ** *239 ** *LB ** *California ** *Pick acquired from New Orleans along with a 2003 third round pick (78 overall) and a 2004 fourth round pick for Tebucky Jones.
2003 ** *7c ** *Ethan Kelley ** *243 ** *NT ** *Baylor ** *Pick acquired from the Tennessee Titans a 2003 fifth round pick (164 overall) and a 2003 sixth round pick (201 overall) for the Patriots 2003 fifth round pick (154 overall) and a 2003 seventh round pick (225 overall).
2003 ** ** ** ** ** **
2003 ** *3/6 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots traded tackle Greg Randall to the Houston Texans in exchange for a fifth round (154th overall) draft choice in the 2003 draft.
2003 ** *3/6 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots traded a third (81st overall) and fifth round (140th overall) selection in the 2003 draft to the Washington Redskins in exchange for a third round selection (75th overall) in 2003 and a fourth-round selection in 2004.
2003 ** *4/14 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots traded safety Tebucky Jones to the New Orleans Saints for a third round pick (78th overall) and seventh-round pick (239th overall) in the 2003 draft, as well as a fourth round pick in the 2004 draft (113th overall).
2003 ** *4/25 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots traded a third round pick in 2003 (78th overall) to the Miami Dolphins for their second round pick in the 2004 draft.
2003 ** *4/26 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots traded a first round pick in 2003 (14th overall) and a 2003 six round pick (193rd overall) to Chicago for their first round pick (13th overall - DT Ty Warren).
2003 ** ** ** ** ** **
2003 ** ** ** ** ** ** The Patriots traded a first round pick in 2003 (19th overall) to Baltimore for a 2003 second round pick (41st overall) and their 2004 first round pick (21st overall - DT Vince Wilfork).
2003 ** ** ** ** ** **
2003 ** ** ** ** ** ** The Patriots traded a second round pick (41st overall) and a third round pick (75th overall) to the Houston Texans for a second round pick (36th overall - DB Eugene Wilson) and a fourth round pick (117th overall - DL Dan Klecko).
2003 ** ** ** ** ** **
2003 ** ** ** ** ** ** The Patriots traded a second round pick (50th overall) and a fourth round pick (120th overall) to the Carolina Panthers for a second round pick (45th overall - WR Bethel Johnson).
2003 ** *4/27 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots traded a fourth round pick in 2003 (128th overall) and a fifth round pick in 2003 (157th overall) to the Denver Broncos for a fourth round pick in 2003 (120th overall - CB Asante Samuel).
2003 ** ** ** ** ** **
2003 ** ** ** ** ** ** The Patriots traded a fifth round pick in 2003 (154th overall) and a seventh round pick in 2003 (225th overall) to the Tennessee Titans for a fifth round pick in 2003 (164th overall - C Dan Koppen), a sixth round pick in 2003 (201st overall - QB Kliff Kingsbury) and a seventh round pick in 2003 (243rd overall - NT Ethan Kelley).
2003 ** *8/19 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquired NT Ted Washington from the Chicago Bears in exchange for a 2004 fourth round pick (104th overall - DT Isaac Sopoaga).
2003 ** *8/26 ** ** ** ** ** *The Patriots acquired G Jamil Soriano from the Chicago Bears for a conditional draft pick.

[Wilson8]

Sorry, that stuff is pretty unreadable

[beach tribe]

LJ isnt going anywhere. They had a report this morning that a trade would cost us 8 mil. against the cap, and a release would cost 12 million. Unless he can voluntarily revoke his very large contract, we cant afford to dump him.

Yes we can afford it. Actually it cost less to dump him. It just counts against the cap more, which I will bet anything we don't meet the cap by any measure. It's best to get rid of him now, take the hit while we have plenty of space, and save his salary for signing bonuses.

[Wilson8]

2005 - Not a good trade

The Patriots acquired CB Duane Starks from the Arizona Cardinals along with a fifth round pick in the 2005 draft (145th overall - Traded to Detroit) in exchange for a third round pick (95th overall - LB Darryl Blackstock) and a fifth round pick (168th overall - LB Lance Mitchell).

[DaneMcCloud]

2005 - Not a good trade

The Patriots acquired CB Duane Starks from the Arizona Cardinals along with a fifth round pick in the 2005 draft (145th overall - Traded to Detroit) in exchange for a third round pick (95th overall - LB Darryl Blackstock) and a fifth round pick (168th overall - LB Lance Mitchell).

There's a lot of bad trades in there for Pioli over the years. Very few even netted NFL starters.

[Mecca]

KcBubb is even more stupid than I thought......

Guess what the highest paid position in the league is, oh yea it's QB, it's why QB's are worth top 5 picks, part of the reason the Chiefs are so far under the cap is they don't hav a starting QB salary on the roster..

And once again if you think spreading out the offense helps your line, every NFL person out there will disagree with you, so how about that?

[milkman]

I'm not a huge fan of taking a QB for the sake of taking a QB. And you all know how I feel about trading down, even though most people don't like the idea for some reason. But if the Chiefs stay still, this is unfortunately too weak a draft class to take anything but a QB. That's the way it's turning out at least. The only other guy that could be on the radar is Curry.

JFC.

I am sick of being reasonable with your dumb ass,

No one has argued against a trade down.

They have argued against your stupid fucking idea of completely ignoring the draft value chart in a trade down scenario.

[milkman]

I agree, there are a lot of differences between the 2000 - 2008 Patriots and the 2009 Chiefs. What I am saying is the football brain trust in New England used trades to their advantage and when it makes sense, we will see it used wisely in KC.

Sorry have to say this...don't be surpised if KC trades for Matt Cassel.

I've said this before.

I want no part of Cassel.

If the Chiefs were to trade with the Patriots for a QB, I'd rather trade for Kevin O'Connell.

[chiefzilla1501]

JFC.

I am sick of being reasonable with your dumb ass,

No one has argued against a trade down.

They have argued against your stupid ****ing idea of completely ignoring the draft value chart in a trade down scenario.

Well, I didn't want to get into the argument, but that is not what I said at all so I have to speak up.

I never said you completely ignore the draft chart. What I'm saying is that the draft chart should be different every year based on the scenario and that the compensation to trade out of the top 3 or 4 is outlandish. Let's go through all the scenarios where you have a #1 pick and are considering a trade down to #4 (if we use the Eli-Rivers trade as a benchmark). SCENARIO 1: Some years, when you trade from 1 to 4, you move down to a completely different level--in those cases, the draft chart is solid because you should cling to your pick unless you have a great trade to justify it. SCENARIO 2: Other years, you have a can't-miss pick at #1 that you must demand the moon to give up; SCENARIO 3: Other years, you have a good #1 pick but you have a really good player that will also be available at #4--the 2008 draft class is a perfect example of that. 4) Finally, you have years where you have no "can't miss" pick at #1. Clinging to the draft chart says that Eli Manning compensation is the compensation in all 4 scenarios. Even if that means you're in scenario 4 and Alex Smith is the top guy on the board. Clinging to the draft chart says that the trade value is the same in ALL FOUR SCENARIOS.

Want to know the irony? The so-called perfect draft chart that everyone thinks is so awesome is the same draft chart that says that the Eli/Rivers trade was a monumental ripoff for the Chargers even though it landed them a pro bowl QB, pro bowl kicker, pro bowl pass rusher, and a starting left tackle. It was off by 1600 POINTS. 1600!!! The draft chart says the value was off by 1,600 points. That tells you a lot about how ridiculous the trade-up compensation from 4 to 1 is. That tells you a lot about how retarded the draft chart is when that chart says that that trade was a complete ripoff. The only reason the trade went through was because of the rare circumstance that the Chargers knew they absolutely had to give up their pick because they had a pick who didn't want to be there. And yet, in a year where there was a supposed monumental ripoff, the Chargers got three great players and the Giants got a Super Bowl QB. There isn't a single person that can say that EITHER side is unhappy with the trade.