Yes or No. Thigpen is...

[OnTheWarpath15]

I saw this poll on another board, and had to see what the response would be here.

I'll word it exactly as it is worded on the other board.

Do you personally think that Tyler Thigpen is capable of leading a team to a Super Bowl Championship win?

Simple question, yes or no.

[MIAdragon]

I dont think so.

[doomy3]

I can't make a decision on this after half a season.

My personal opinion is that less talented QBs have won Super Bowls, so I wouldn't say it's impossible.

[Mr. Arrowhead]

god no

[JuicesFlowing]

I can't make a decision on this after half a season.



Pretty much agree with this. But without Gailey, definitely no.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I can't make a decision on this after half a season.

My personal opinion is that less talented QBs have won Super Bowls, so I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Yeah you can.

Do you personally see the potential in him?

I think Stafford or Sanchez is capable of leading a team to a SB win, and they haven't taken an NFL snap.

This isn't that difficult.

[CoMoChief]

The real answer to this question is "We don't know til we let him have a full offseason and TC and ability to work with a better Oline"

[Reerun_KC]

I can't make a decision on this after half a season.

My personal opinion is that less talented QBs have won Super Bowls, so I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Vote

[Micjones]

This is a difficult question to answer.

How many people thought Tom Brady could lead a team to winning a Superbowl before he did?

Hell as good as Peyton Manning was all those years people doubted that he could ever do it.

You're asking me to judge a first year starter, who took zero first-team snaps in the off-season, had a horrible offensive line, a questionable running game, and an inept coaching staff on whether he has the tools to win a Superbowl?

AND...

I should make this decision AFTER realizing that lesser QB's have won the Superbowl?

[keg in kc]

Leading a team? I doubt it. Riding a team a la Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer. Maybe in 5 or 6 years.

[doomy3]

Yeah you can.

Do you personally see the potential in him?

I think Stafford or Sanchez is capable of leading a team to a SB win, and they haven't taken an NFL snap.

This isn't that difficult.

I don't think it is as black and white as you are making this seem. Would you have voted yes for Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnston? Jake Delhomme to take his team to a Super Bowl?

[doomy3]

Vote

Suck my dick

[Micjones]

Leading a team? I doubt it. Riding a team a la Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer. Maybe in 5 or 6 years.

That would depend on what you consider "leading a team".
Half of ChiefsPlanet has been riding Roethlisberger's nuts for the past couple weeks and I watched him have a rather pedestrian regular season.

No one thinks the "rode" the team to the Superbowl though.

I think perception plays a big part in it all.

[Thig Lyfe]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[MIAdragon]

******This is a public service announcement******
If you choose anything other than Hell no yo will be vicously attacked and told why you are unequivacly wrong, good luck and god speed
******This is a public service announcement******

[Basileus777]

Yay for more shitty polls!

[Reerun_KC]

Suck my dick

Sorry dude, I dont swing that way.... IF your looking for guy type action, you might try Claythan.... Sorry Bro... Your on your own on that one...

[OnTheWarpath15]

******This is a public service announcement******
If you choose anything other than Hell no yo will be vicously attacked and told why you are unequivacly wrong, good luck and god speed
******This is a public service announcement******

Actually, not at all.

I'm legitimately curious as to what people actually think he's capable of.

[Micjones]

******This is a public service announcement******
If you choose anything other than Hell no yo will be vicously attacked and told why you are unequivacly wrong, good luck and god speed
******This is a public service announcement******

Agreed. This is a trap.

[MIAdragon]

Actually, not at all.

I'm legitimately curious as to what people actually think he's capable of.

Just giving ya a hard time OTW.

[Mr. Laz]

now what was that about an obsession?

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't think it is as black and white as you are making this seem. Would you have voted yes for Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnston? Jake Delhomme to take his team to a Super Bowl?

I'm with you, doomy. I don't know why people are so intent on putting a definitive mark on Thigpen after this short a period of time.

Did Eli Manning look like a Super Bowl QB after his first season? God no. After his second season? Hell no. After 1.5 seasons more, still no. Does Tyler Thipgen look like a Super Bowl QB right now? God no. That doesn't mean he won't after a full offseason. And by the way... accuracy was a HUGE issue with Eli. That's why he hired himself a QBs coach to improve his fundamentals.

Of course you have to bring in another QB this offseason. But the fact that people want to actually put definitive stamp on a QB after one half season is insane. There are Super Bowl QBs like Eli and Favre that looked a hell of a lot worse in their rookie seasons than Thigpen did.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Who the hell knows? He's played a half season under a shitty coaching staff, behind a patchwork line, with a generally shitty running game and one consistant receiver. These polls are so stupid. A lot of players have turned in good careers after starting bad and Thigpen wasn't even that bad.

[doomy3]

Actually, not at all.

I'm legitimately curious as to what people actually think he's capable of.



I pretty much think there's only two opinions:

1) He's fucking worthless and the worst QB I have ever seen in my life. Of course he can't lead us to a Super Bowl.

2) Too early to tell. Didn't get any snaps until halfway through the season and was running the scout team. When he came in, there was a lift, and I'm willing to give the guy more time.

[BigMeatballDave]

The real answer to this question is "We don't know til we let him have a full offseason and TC and ability to work with a better Oline"You could try this, but in the end, he would be beaten out in TC.

[BigMeatballDave]

Who the hell knows? He's played a half season under a shitty coaching staff, behind a patchwork line, with a generally shitty running game and one consistant receiver. These polls are so stupid. A lot of players have turned in good careers after starting bad and Thigpen wasn't even that bad.Shitty coaches, line, and running game have nothing to do with his inability to throw consistantly.

[Tribal Warfare]

Hell fucking no!!!

[MIAdragon]

Shitty coaches, line, and running game have nothing to do with his inability to throw consistantly.

Someone told me once that the coach’s job was to find a players weakness and correct them. Why can they not do that here!?

[Hydrae]

Leading a team? I doubt it. Riding a team a la Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer. Maybe in 5 or 6 years.

I agree with this but still voted "Yes."

[Phobia]

I think what people are forgetting is that it's a team sport. Sure, a vastly talented QB can raise the play of his team but a good supporting cast could make a lot of people we consider scrubs look pretty good behind center. I believe that half of a QB's performance is based on his skill and physical talents.

The other half is his leadership, confidence, chemistry, and execution. My questions about Thigpen are related to accuracy, poise, and decision making. I think that confidence, chemistry, and execution can be developed. His ability to lead is directly related to his character and the strength of his performance. He's probably okay in the character department but he needs some strong games and "W's" before he can fully earn the respect and confidence of his teammates.

If everything plays out in his favor then I absolutely believe he can lead a team to a SB win. But if any one of those items mentioned above goes awry then all bets are off.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Agreed. This is a trap.

:rolleyes:

What about someone's opinion is black and white?

Either you think he has the physical tools and mental makeup to win a Championship, or you don't.

It's not a difficult fucking question.

I've said it already - I think Stafford and Sanchez are both capable of this, and I didn't need them taking snaps at the NFL level to come to that conclusion.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'm not the one shying away from stating their opinion.

[Crush]

That question is similar to asking oneself, "Would I enjoy having genital herpes?"

Therefore, the answer to both questions is a definitive "no."

[chiefzilla1501]

Shitty coaches, line, and running game have nothing to do with his inability to throw consistantly.

Uhhh....

-Shitty coaches don't coach you fundamentals to make you more consistent. See Eli Manning.
-A good offensive line lets you get comfortable in the pocket without always hearing footsteps. See Trent Green and Carson Palmer.
-A good running game puts 8 defenders in the box and opens up the passing game because the defense is always looking to run the ball first. See Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan.

You don't think a QB would be more consistent if he was coached by top-notch QBs coaches, if he had great protection, and if he had a consistently top-notch running game? You'd be in the minority.

[-King-]

Who knows? He had to work with Herm and Dick Curl, you guys act like he worked under Belicheck, McDaniels, and Caldwell. You act like Herm can develop a qb and fix his flaws.

If I could make a thread, I'd make a poll asking "Can you grade player based on 13 games?"

[Deberg_1990]

No

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I think Sportsracer's avatar sums it up perfectly. Only in my case, my hope is that I'm wrong.

[beach tribe]

I think he could with the 2000 Ravens.

[bishop_74]

http://users.frii.com/meldroc/not_this_shit_again.jpg

Truth is... nobody know sans the REAL experts that are working at Arrowhead now. I am going to love to see all the "I TOLD YA SO!!!" guys around here if he fails.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Shitty coaches, line, and running game have nothing to do with his inability to throw consistantly.

Shitty line, coaching and running game can have a lot to do with a quarter backs ability to throw consistantly. Of course Thigpen has natural talent, he wouldn't be in the NFL if he didn't. If he can be taught right, get good protection and have some real weapons he'll have a better chance to succeed. If he can't get the job done then we'll have the answer to the question. Never mind the fact that he's nowhere near done perfecting his craft yet after one half sesaon.

It takes more than a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl anyway. Eli Manning can't find his ass with both hands at times but he won a Super Bowl. Trent Dilfer wasn't exactly a stereotypical QB and he won a Super Bowl.

Black and white answers to questions that can't be answered yet are stupid.

[RealSNR]

The way he played this year? No.

If he improves?

I'll say yes because anything is possible in today's NFL

[keg in kc]

That would depend on what you consider "leading a team".
Half of ChiefsPlanet has been riding Roethlisberger's nuts for the past couple weeks and I watched him have a rather pedestrian regular season.

No one thinks the "rode" the team to the Superbowl though.

I think perception plays a big part in it all.Roethlisberger lies somewhere between game manager and franchise quarterback, with a heavy lean towards the franchise. This year, particularly, most of the offense they had was him. No line (they were every bit as bad as the chiefs line) and no running game. He's a lot closer to Tom Brady than he is to Trent Dilfer. They don't even make the super bowl if he isn't carrying that offense, much less win it.

Anyway, he's in the top 10 all time in passer rating and yards/attempt, so I think it's kind of hard to say he's not a big part of their success (along with the fact that they couldn't win a title for years and years before him with a defense every bit as good). The other thing people seem to overlook is that he's only 27, so he's probably not even hitting his stride yet.

If you want to add Thigpen to the discussion,to play fantasy and slip the bounds of space and time, there's no way Thigpen rides the 2004 steelers to 15-1, there's no way he wins a super bowl in his second season with them. He just doesn't have the skills. If you put him with the world's greatest defense, he's still going to be a couple of inches too short, he's still going to be wildly inaccurate (in no small part because of his height). He's not a diamond in the rough being held back by the players around him, he's a long-term limited-upside project.

I understand that Kansas City has always had a fascination with that kind of player. He's Mike Maslowski behind center, and, sure, it would be a great story to see the hard working underdog break the boundaries of his limitations.

[FloridaMan88]

See the Thigpen in the Atlanta game as Exhibit A of what he looks like in a non-gimmicky, college style offense.

[Micjones]

It's not a difficult fucking question.

You're right... It's a dumb fucking question.
He's played 11 games in the NFL and lesser QB's have championship rings.

We all get it. You personally don't think he has the tools to be the kind of QB you build a franchise around.

Obviously there are others who disagree...
And then those who are undecided.

So what do we stand to gain from making these sharp rigid conclusions about a QB who was put in a rather difficult situation for ANY QB to be in to start his NFL career?

I've said it already - I think Stafford and Sanchez are both capable of this, and I didn't need them taking snaps at the NFL level to come to that conclusion.

And some would call you a moonbat to make such a statement about QB's who've never taken NFL snaps.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'm not the one shying away from stating their opinion.

I'm not afraid to state my opinion.

I think he's capable enough to lead a team to a Superbowl.
I have no reservations about saying that given what we've seen happen in the NFL.

[Deberg_1990]

Thigpen has now become the Marc Boerichter of Chiefs QB's amongst the true fans.

Unbelievable....

[DaFace]

This crap's getting really old.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

See the Thigpen in the Atlanta game as Exhibit A of what he looks like in a non-gimmicky, college style offense.

Exhibit B is the fact that they got to the point where they stopped trying.

[DeezNutz]

See the Thigpen in the Atlanta game as Exhibit A of what he looks like in a non-gimmicky, college style offense.

ROFL

I like it. A college-style offense. An accidental, yet apt description.

[Deberg_1990]

This crap's getting really old.

Is it time to put a temp moratorium on all Thigpen related threads?

[keg in kc]

This crap's getting really old.Yes. Yes it is.

Thankfully free agency starts in two weeks so we have something else to talk about.

[SAUTO]

Is it time to put a temp moratorium on all QB related threads?

fyp

[doomy3]

This crap's getting really old.

Couldn't agree more.

The way most of this board gets railroaded by a select few makes this place pretty much unenjoyable anymore.

[OnTheWarpath15]

This crap's getting really old.

Hey Matt?

No offense, but piss off.

I'm honestly not trying to prove anything with this poll. I legitimately want to know if people think he has the potential to win a championship.

People saw who posted the poll and automatically started getting their defenses up.

So, for those of you that answered the question, regardless of the answer, thank you.

For those of you who had to make some smartass comment instead of telling us what you think, kindly fuck off.

[chiefzilla1501]

:rolleyes:

What about someone's opinion is black and white?

Either you think he has the physical tools and mental makeup to win a Championship, or you don't.

It's not a difficult ****ing question.

I've said it already - I think Stafford and Sanchez are both capable of this, and I didn't need them taking snaps at the NFL level to come to that conclusion.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'm not the one shying away from stating their opinion.

The reason why I support the kid and hope to see him succeed is that he has a lot of the mental stuff right. His teammates respond to him in ways that Croyle and Huard NEVER did. He has a competitive fire that you never really saw in Croyle and Huard (when they made mistakes, you usually saw them mope on the sidelines). And he has a tremendous work ethic--I think it says a lot that he was working with Tony Gonzalez and eventually all his receivers in his off-time so that he can get better. I think most QBs fail because they are mentally unprepared. THey don't have the work ethic to sit in the film room. And they are too stubborn to listen to other people to improve. I don't know if Thigpen can improve, but I feel pretty confident that he is going to work his ass off to at least try to improve.

Now, in terms of his physical potential, there isn't any real physical downside. He's built pretty strong, very athletic, and while he doesn't have the arm of Stafford/Sanchez he has a pretty strong arm. But his greatest upside is his ability to move. I've seen lots of QBs who pass well and who run well, but few who can do both very well. Thigpen has that upside. And as we saw with Jake Plummer on his good days, that that combination can be absolutely dangerous (and I think most would agree that Thigpen seems more mentally stable so as to avoid the complete lapses in focus and common sense).

The kid has a lot of work to do. But the mental and physical tools are all mostly there. So does he have Super Bowl potential? Right now, no. And he has to prove a lot this offseason to prove that he does. But it's way too soon to give a definitive response that you're looking for.

[Just Passin' By]

Actually, not at all.

I'm legitimately curious as to what people actually think he's capable of.

That must be why you made it a public poll...

[OnTheWarpath15]

That must be why you made it a public poll...

I make every poll a public poll.

If you believe in what you're saying, there's no reason for it to be secret.

[Hammock Parties]

I think what people are forgetting is that it's a team sport.

http://www.georgeblowfish.com/hermanbioshot.jpg

[Just Passin' By]

I make every poll a public poll.

If you believe in what you're saying, there's no reason for it to be secret.

I'd say that being harassed by a bunch of idiots who think that any disagreement is cause for telling people to fuck off and the like is a pretty good reason, actually.

[DeezNutz]

http://www.georgeblowfish.com/hermanbioshot.jpg

"Sign your name to it, boys."

[-King-]

Can you grade a player(the most important player on a team mind you) in just 13 games?

Yes or No?

[Mr. Flopnuts]

IT'S THE GODDAMNED INTERNET YOU PUSSIES!!!!!

[chiefzilla1501]

See the Thigpen in the Atlanta game as Exhibit A of what he looks like in a non-gimmicky, college style offense.

Are you talking about the game where Thigpen was getting his first significant playing time, throwing to receivers he had only worked with for a week, playing in an offense that was largely designed for Croyle's strengths, playing behind an offensive line that couldn't hold a block for more than 1 second, playing on the road against a playoff team?

Do you remember what Cutler looked like in his first game? He was a mess. He threw 2 INTs and in his first 2 games, fumbled the ball 5 times.

[SAUTO]

Can you grade a player(the most important player on a team mind you) in just 13 games?

Yes or No?

several people here think so, those same people wouldgladly give a 1st round pick 70 mil AND several years to get it

[MIAdragon]

Hey OTW can you link to the other poll Id like to see what the consensus is there.

[-King-]

I'd say that being harassed by a bunch of idiots who think that any disagreement is cause for telling people to **** off and the like is a pretty good reason, actually.

You know, it's funny, they will go into threads and get pissed off because the have to debate their point. They expect everyone to see things from the exact point of view they see. They seriously think that Thigpens 11 games have proven he sucks and Sanchez's 13 games have proven that he is the greatest qb of all time.

[DeezNutz]

IT'S THE GODDAMNED INTERNET YOU PUSSIES!!!!!

That's why it's so fucking serious, Flopnuts.

I don't fuck around with an intraweb.

[eazyb81]

Probably not, but if we had an early 2000's Ravens defense anything could be possible.

[Tribal Warfare]

IT'S THE GODDAMNED INTERNET YOU PUSSIES!!!!!

It's where the world starts and ends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SAUTO]

Are you talking about the game where Thigpen was getting his first significant playing time, throwing to receivers he had only worked with for a week, playing in an offense that was largely designed for Croyle's strengths, playing behind an offensive line that couldn't hold a block for more than 1 second, playing on the road against a playoff team?

Do you remember what Cutler looked like in his first game? He was a mess. He threw 2 INTs and in his first 2 games, fumbled the ball 5 times.

peyton fucking manning would be sitting on the sideline crying after playing behind our offensive line for one drive that was a 3 and out

[Mr. Flopnuts]

That's why it's so fucking serious, Flopnuts.

I don't fuck around with an intraweb.

It's only sticky in certain places. Beware.

[BigMeatballDave]

In short, could Thig "Lead" a team to a SB? Never. If placed in a situation like Dilfer was, sure.

[-King-]

Are you talking about the game where Thigpen was getting his first significant playing time, throwing to receivers he had only worked with for a week, playing in an offense that was largely designed for Croyle's strengths, playing behind an offensive line that couldn't hold a block for more than 1 second, playing on the road against a playoff team?

Do you remember what Cutler looked like in his first game? He was a mess. He threw 2 INTs and in his first 2 games, fumbled the ball 5 times.

Or maybe they forget that before that week, Thigpen gets probably less than 10 reps at the Chiefs offense. For the majority of the time, he played in the scout offense mimicking the opposing teams.

They expect that a 3rd qb would have an easy transition after being thrust into the starting role.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'd say that being harassed by a bunch of idiots who think that any disagreement is cause for telling people to fuck off and the like is a pretty good reason, actually.

Actually, if you'd read, the only people I told to fuck off are the ones that deserve it.

The people that saw who started the thread, and automatically assumed it was a trap, that they know my intentions, all that bullshit.

Notice, I haven't attacked one person in this thread for giving their opinion. In fact, I've thanked everyone who voted without making assumptions as to why it was posted.

If you think you're being harassed, go somewhere else.

[doomy3]

Hey Matt?

No offense, but piss off.

I'm honestly not trying to prove anything with this poll. I legitimately want to know if people think he has the potential to win a championship.

People saw who posted the poll and automatically started getting their defenses up.

So, for those of you that answered the question, regardless of the answer, thank you.

For those of you who had to make some smartass comment instead of telling us what you think, kindly **** off.


And just because I didn't answer yes or no to this poll, I gave my answer, and I think it is pretty clear. Doesn't fall under one of your two options though.

[-King-]

peyton ****ing manning would be sitting on the sideline crying after playing behind our offensive line for one drive that was a 3 and out

No you forget, it's okay when Peyton spends 10+ years in the NFL and still runs most plays from the shotgun, but when Thigpen is only the NFL for a year and running plays from the shotgun, its the worst thing ever.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Hey OTW can you link to the other poll Id like to see what the consensus is there.

Yes - 15

No - 6

[Crush]

IT'S THE GODDAMNED INTERNET YOU PUSSIES!!!!!

It has happened before and it will happen again.

[OnTheWarpath15]

And just because I didn't answer yes or no to this poll, I gave my answer, and I think it is pretty clear. Doesn't fall under one of your two options though.

Whatever, dude.

You either think he has the potential, or you don't.

[SAUTO]

Whatever, dude.

You either think he has the potential, or you don't.

did dan marino have the potential to win a super bowl?

[DeezNutz]

http://capslockhouse.pbwiki.com/f/SandyVag.gif

[Mr. Flopnuts]

did dan marino have the potential to win a super bowl?

Only while he played at Pitt.

[keg in kc]

did dan marino have the potential to win a super bowl?Yes.

Does Tyler Thigpen have anything even remotely approaching Dan Marino's potential?

No.

[SAUTO]

Only while he played at Pitt.

???

[SAUTO]

Yes.

Does Tyler Thigpen have anything even remotely approaching Dan Marino's potential?

No.

you are missing the point. lots of qbs have had the potential and not won one? why?

[patteeu]

I have to believe that Tyler Thigpen with a few years of coaching and a strong enough cast around him is capable of doing what Trent Dilfer did as a Raven so I voted "YES".

Does that mean that I think Tyler Thigpen is Tom Brady or John Elway or Joe Montana, NO, but who knows where he falls in between. :shrug:

[MIAdragon]

Yes - 15

No - 6

Hmm thats a bit more than I would have guessed. The only thing IMO the he has shown is that he's going to need WAY more work untill he is ready to lead any team anywhere.

[DeezNutz]

Yes.

Does Tyler Thigpen have anything even remotely approaching Dan Marino's potential?

No.

It's exactly like Dorsey, dude. Are you saying he's not capable of anchoring a championship level defense? Should we give up on him, too?

[OnTheWarpath15]

did dan marino have the potential to win a super bowl?

Of course.

That's where you short sighted people that think this is a trap, or that I'm trying to prove something are way off base.

I'm asking if you think he has the potential, not necessarily if he WILL win one.

Cutler has the potential, IMO. Doesn't mean I think he'll win one.

[SAUTO]

It's exactly like Dorsey, dude. Are you saying he's not capable of anchoring a championship level defense? Should we give up on him, too?

using some's standards yes. (not my opinion) but by the standards used to judge thigpen

[SAUTO]

Of course.

That's where you short sighted people that think this is a trap, or that I'm trying to prove something are way off base.

I'm asking if you think he has the potential, not necessarily if he WILL win one.

Cutler has the potential, IMO. Doesn't mean I think he'll win one.

i wasnt saying anything about thigpen in that question. no need to call names. just trying to make a point about the TEAM aspect of the game

[chiefzilla1501]

Whatever, dude.

You either think he has the potential, or you don't.

It's not that black and white. He has the potential to win a Super Bowl, but he's going to have to work really hard to improve on certain improveable dimensions.

Super Bowl ability? Right now, no.
Super Bowl potential? Yes
Likelihood of Super Bowl potential? Depends on how much he improves in the offseason

[doomy3]

It's exactly like Dorsey, dude. Are you saying he's not capable of anchoring a championship level defense? Should we give up on him, too?

Well, I don't know. An argument could be made that Tank Tyler was our best DT last year, and he was called a bust by most everyone on this board after his first year. If he was drafted in the first round though, I'm sure many of those same people would have been much more patient.

[keg in kc]

you are missing the point. lots of qbs have had the potential and not won one? why?I don't know, I think that's specifically the point. Because the poll question is about whether Thigpen has the potential to lead a team to the super bowl. It doesn't ask whether Thigpen is a martyocre enough quarterback to coast into the super bowl riding the defense behind center in a 'play not to lose' offense.

(I'd vote 'no' to that at this point, too - I don't think he could make it to the super bowl behind center for any team right now, not the Steelers or the Cardinals or anybody else. maybe in 5 or 6 years...)

[OnTheWarpath15]

i wasnt saying anything about thigpen in that question. no need to call names. just trying to make a point about the TEAM aspect of the game

The team aspect has nothing to do with the question I posed in the poll.

This isn't that difficult, yet people want to argue "ifs" and "buts".

You either think he has the POTENTIAL to LEAD a team to a SB Championship, or you don't.

People are trying to turn it into, "well, if he played for the 2000 Ravens, sure."

He doesn't play for the 2000 Ravens, and in this case, it doesn't matter WHO he plays for.

I'm asking about HIS potential.

[Craqhead]

I saw this poll on another board, and had to see what the response would be here.

I'll word it exactly as it is worded on the other board.

Do you personally think that Tyler Thigpen is capable of leading a team to a Super Bowl Championship win?

Simple question, yes or no.

was it a poll over there?

I personally think not. But everyone is entitled too their own opinion.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I don't know, I think that's specifically the point. Because the poll question is about whether Thigpen has the potential to lead a team to the super bowl. It doesn't ask whether Thigpen is a martyocre enough quarterback to coast into the super bowl riding the defense behind center in a 'play not to lose' offense.

I'm glad someone actually read the question.

[DeezNutz]

Well, I don't know. An argument could be made that Tank Tyler was our best DT last year, and he was called a bust by most everyone on this board after his first year. If he was drafted in the first round though, I'm sure many of those same people would have been much more patient.

It was some cross-thead humor.

Comparing Thigpen to Dorsey is beyond a joke.

But I don't remember any of the serious posters calling Tank a bust. I remember a lot of people saying it usually takes several years for young D-linemen to develop, however.

I also know that most here think the line received some terrible coaching from Mr. Slap Dick.

[SAUTO]

It was some cross-thead humor.

Comparing Thigpen to Dorsey is beyond a joke.

But I don't remember any of the serious poster calling Tank a bust. I remember a lot of people saying it usually takes several years for young D-linemen to develop, however.

I also know that most here think the line received some terrible coaching from Mr. Slap Dick.

serious posters have been down on tank after this season, saying he should be gone

[doomy3]

The team aspect has nothing to do with the question I posed in the poll.

This isn't that difficult, yet people want to argue "ifs" and "buts".

You either think he has the POTENTIAL to LEAD a team to a SB Championship, or you don't.

People are trying to turn it into, "well, if he played for the 2000 Ravens, sure."

He doesn't play for the 2000 Ravens, and in this case, it doesn't matter WHO he plays for.

I'm asking about HIS potential.


But, this is flawed OTW.

Peyton Manning couldn't "lead" his team to a Super Bowl until after several years of drafts and making moves that finally made that happen. To act like any one player is the decision on that team playing in the Super Bowl just isn't realistic IMO. Hell, the Patriots this year basically lost nothing when Brady went down and Cassel stepped in.

Do you think Cassel could lead the Patriots to a Super Bowl if Brady doesn't get healthy?

[SAUTO]

Do you think Cassel could lead the Patriots to a Super Bowl if Brady doesn't get healthy?

that is a great question.

[OnTheWarpath15]

But, this is flawed OTW.

Peyton Manning couldn't "lead" his team to a Super Bowl until after several years of drafts and making moves that finally made that happen. To act like any one player is the decision on that team playing in the Super Bowl just isn't realistic IMO. Hell, the Patriots this year basically lost nothing when Brady went down and Cassel stepped in.

Do you think Cassel could lead the Patriots to a Super Bowl if Brady doesn't get healthy?

You know these things about Manning in hindsight.

Coming out of college, did you think that Manning had the physical tools, mental makeup and outright potential to lead a team to a championship?

And to answer your question on Cassel, no.

Doesn't mean he won't, however.

[SAUTO]

You know these things about Manning in hindsight.

Coming out of college, did you think that Manning had the physical tools, mental makeup and outright potential to be what I'm asking?

And to answer your question on Cassel, no.

Doesn't mean he won't, however.

so you are against arguing "if or buts" yet you leave it open ended with a no, doesnt mean he wont

[doomy3]

You know these things about Manning in hindsight.

Coming out of college, did you think that Manning had the physical tools, mental makeup and outright potential to lead a team to a championship?

And to answer your question on Cassel, no.

Doesn't mean he won't, however.


Can you explain this? I don't understand what you mean by this.

[Craqhead]

Yes - 15

No - 6

DoH... guess I just needed too read farther along.

Thanx.

[doomy3]

You know these things about Manning in hindsight.

Coming out of college, did you think that Manning had the physical tools, mental makeup and outright potential to lead a team to a championship?

And to answer your question on Cassel, no.

Doesn't mean he won't, however.


Yes, I thought he did coming out of college. I couldn't form an opinion on guys like Thigpen, Delhomme, Bulger, etc though because we never saw those guys play in college, unlike Manning, who played at an SEC school.

[MIAdragon]

You know these things about Manning in hindsight.

Coming out of college, did you think that Manning had the physical tools, mental makeup and outright potential to lead a team to a championship?

And to answer your question on Cassel, no.

Doesn't mean he won't, however.

Its near impossible to accurately predict a players future performance based on past history against lesser talent.

Here is an snippet from a draft profile on Peyton

” One question that some NFL scouts have is the question “will he get any better?”. At times he gives the appearance of being a self-made player, and sometimes those types of players don’t always go on to great NFL careers. In Manning’s case, he may be a solid and productive NFL QB, but he may not have Hall of Fame type skills, but it certainly won’t be for lack of effort.. He has probably been the most scouted player in the draft in recent years, and because that NFL teams tend to look too much at potential flaws...”

[keg in kc]

But, this is flawed OTW.

Peyton Manning couldn't "lead" his team to a Super Bowl until after several years of drafts and making moves that finally made that happen. To act like any one player is the decision on that team playing in the Super Bowl just isn't realistic IMO. Hell, the Patriots this year basically lost nothing when Brady went down and Cassel stepped in.

Do you think Cassel could lead the Patriots to a Super Bowl if Brady doesn't get healthy?Nobody would say one player by himself will win a super bowl, because everybody understands that football is the ultimate team game.

However, you can discuss the potential of players on an individual basis, and you can discuss whether those individual players give their team a better opportunity of winning a championship.

For example:

If you substitute Ben Roethlisberger with Tyler Thigpen, are the Steelers still a championship team?

If you substitute Kurt Warner with Tyler Thigpen, would the Cardinals have played in the Super Bowl?

If you substitute Peyton Manning with Tyler Thigpen, what kind of offense would the Colts have?

Because the question is about which one of those individuals give their team the best chance of winning. Potentially speaking (there's that word again).

As for the Patriots not losing anything when Brady went down, well, they accrued 6580 yards of total offense in 2007 and scored just under 37 points per game with Brady under center. In 2008, with Cassel, they totaled 5847 yards of offense and scored just under 26 points per game. That's 1000 yards of offense and 11 points difference. I'd call that a dropoff.

[SAUTO]

Nobody would say one player by himself will win a super bowl, because everybody understands that football is the ultimate team game.


As for the Patriots not losing anything when Brady went down, well, they accrued 6580 yards of total offense in 2007 and scored just under 37 points per game with Brady under center. In 2008, with Cassel, they totaled 5847 yards of offense and scored just under 26 points per game. That's 1000 yards off offense and 11 points difference. I'd call that a dropoff.

most of the guys against thigpen have continually blamed him for the losses in 2008. not the defense.

the pats could just be because it's a different season. look how it happens to lots of teams year to year. what would have been more telling is if it would have happened several games in and it dropped off. who knows if the pats WITH brady would have duplicated 2007(would have been VERY difficult IMO)

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I'm with you, doomy. I don't know why people are so intent on putting a definitive mark on Thigpen after this short a period of time.

Did Eli Manning look like a Super Bowl QB after his first season? God no. After his second season? Hell no. After 1.5 seasons more, still no. Does Tyler Thipgen look like a Super Bowl QB right now? God no. That doesn't mean he won't after a full offseason. And by the way... accuracy was a HUGE issue with Eli. That's why he hired himself a QBs coach to improve his fundamentals.

Of course you have to bring in another QB this offseason. But the fact that people want to actually put definitive stamp on a QB after one half season is insane. There are Super Bowl QBs like Eli and Favre that looked a hell of a lot worse in their rookie seasons than Thigpen did.

Thigpen was not a motherfucking rookie you dumb sonofabitch. How many times does this have to be said? 100? 1000?

Fuck. The guy was drafted in '07. Spent the entire year on the Chiefs roster, learning the Chiefs system. Then played extensively in '08, which basic arithmetic would tell you, comes after '07.

[chiefscafan]

you guys are so sold on sanchez and stanford you are blinded by the skills thigpen actually showed. He is such a danger to run with it that it reminded me of elway or young with his ability to excape the rush. Now i'm not saying he is the next young or elway I'm saying he has similar qualities. I think with some good coaching two or three years down the line he is capable of winning a superbowl.

[doomy3]

Nobody would say one player by himself will win a super bowl, because everybody understands that football is the ultimate team game.

However, you can discuss the potential of players on an individual basis, and you can discuss whether those individual players give their team a better opportunity of winning a championship.

For example:

If you substitute Ben Roethlisberger with Tyler Thigpen, are the Steelers still a championship team?

If you substitute Kurt Warner with Tyler Thigpen, would the Cardinals have played in the Super Bowl?

If you substitute Peyton Manning with Tyler Thigpen, what kind of offense would the Colts have?

Because the question is about which one of those individuals give their team the best chance of winning. Potentially speaking (there's that word again).

As for the Patriots not losing anything when Brady went down, well, they accrued 6580 yards of total offense in 2007 and scored just under 37 points per game with Brady under center. In 2008, with Cassel, they totaled 5847 yards of offense and scored just under 26 points per game. That's 1000 yards of offense and 11 points difference. I'd call that a dropoff.



Of course not, on all of those examples. But that's not the question. Putting Thigpen in those situations RIGHT NOW would not have had the same results of course. But putting Eli Manning in any of those situations in his rookie year would have been disastrous too.

And on the Patriots thing though, after the first couple games of getting Cassel acclimated, they didn't miss a beat.

[lazepoo]

Leading a team? I doubt it. Riding a team a la Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer. Maybe in 5 or 6 years.

I was about to say this.

The poll should have been:

Is Thigpen capable of putting a team on his back and pulling out a championship win?

After last season, I think the answer would have to be a resounding "NO," and while he might be a viable option in the future, he's clearly not ready yet to be THE MAN in an offense.

[doomy3]

Thigpen was not a mother****ing rookie you dumb sonofabitch. How many times does this have to be said? 100? 1000?

****. The guy was drafted in '07. Spent the entire year on the Chiefs roster, learning the Chiefs system. Then played extensively in '08, which basic arithmetic would tell you, comes after '07.

You're right, he was the scout team QB for one year.

[chiefzilla1501]

Thigpen was not a mother****ing rookie you dumb sonofabitch. How many times does this have to be said? 100? 1000?

****. The guy was drafted in '07. Spent the entire year on the Chiefs roster, learning the Chiefs system. Then played extensively in '08, which basic arithmetic would tell you, comes after '07.

You know what the fuck I meant. It was his first significant playing time.

And given that most of his reps were with the third team, that 95% of the coaches' attention was devoted to getting Croyle ready to be the QBOTF, he was for all intents and purposes a rookie. In fact, given what I just said, he received a lot less grooming than an average rookie would in an offseason.

[keg in kc]

most of the guys against thigpen have continually blamed him for the losses in 2008. not the defense.I think they're probably reading pro-Thigpen folks the other way, thinking that people are excusing Thigpen for everything. And I'm guessing it's a lack of communication on both sides leading to all this.

Reality, at least for me, is that he's part of the problem as a whole. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. It's not just one or the other: the defense was bad and Thigpen shouldn't have been on the field.

He's a project, and you don't develop projects on Sundays, you develop them on the practice squad. Five years ago he'd have been playing in NFLE.

[DeezNutz]

I think they're probably reading pro-Thigpen folks the other way, thinking that people are excusing Thigpen for everything. And I'm guessing it's a lack of communication on both sides leading to all this.

Reality, at least for me, is that he's part of the problem as a whole. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. It's not just one or the other: the defense was bad and Thigpen shouldn't have been on the field.

He's a project, and you don't develop projects on Sundays, you develop them on the practice squad. Five years ago he'd have been playing in NFLE.

Nice post.

Last season is what you get when coaches and FO personnel get caught with their pants down. Completely inexcusable, and, thankfully, they were held accountable.

[-King-]

If you substitute Ben Roethlisberger with Tyler Thigpen, are the Steelers still a championship team?

If you substitute Kurt Warner with Tyler Thigpen, would the Cardinals have played in the Super Bowl?

If you substitute Peyton Manning with Tyler Thigpen, what kind of offense would the Colts have?

Yes
No
No

Cardinals and Colts depend on a qb who can make plays. Steelers just need a qb to manage the game, throw a few TDs and the defense will take care of the rest. Hell, even Ben wasnt that great of a game manager, he had a TD to INT ratio of 17:15. He definetly wasn't counted on to go out on sundays and win the game for them. The defense allowed an average 14.5 points per game. So it's not like he was down most of the game. Most qbs will be able to be look good if their defense only allows 14.5 points per game.

[keg in kc]

Now I've seen it all. The Steelers would have won the Super Bowl with Tyler Thigpen.

Right.

I don't even know what else to say to that.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I saw this poll on another board, and had to see what the response would be here.

I'll word it exactly as it is worded on the other board.

Do you personally think that Tyler Thigpen is capable of leading a team to a Super Bowl Championship win?

Simple question, yes or no.

Of course he is. Now, he won't be the reason the Chiefs go, but he could tag along for the ride and not screw it up.

He would have to have a great team around him. I don't think he is a franchise QB that can elevate the players around him. However, I think he is adequate enough to do the job if given a great surrounding cast.

[DeezNutz]

Good grief.

The Steelers don't win a championship with Thigpen at the helm. Sorry.

[-King-]

I think they're probably reading pro-Thigpen folks the other way, thinking that people are excusing Thigpen for everything. And I'm guessing it's a lack of communication on both sides leading to all this.

Reality, at least for me, is that he's part of the problem as a whole. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. It's not just one or the other: the defense was bad and Thigpen shouldn't have been on the field.

He's a project, and you don't develop projects on Sundays, you develop them on the practice squad. Five years ago he'd have been playing in NFLE.

I agree. Both sides are taking it to an extreme. But still, I think Thigpen is more than a project. If he can do that under Herm, with Haley he should do a lot better. Only qb I would lobby to draft in the first round is Stafford. We still need to take a qb somewhere in the draft, but if Stafford isn't there at 3, theres no need to reach.

Now the "YOU WANT TO TAKE CURRY/ORAKPO/CRABTEE" bullshit is going to start. Just cause I dont want to take Sanchez at three doesn't mean I want to get Curry. It just means I dont think Sanchez is worth the 3rd pick.

[-King-]

Now I've seen it all. The Steelers would have won the Super Bowl with Tyler Thigpen.

Right.

I don't even know what else to say to that.

Maybe not the actual superbowl game, but they would have got there. Roethlisberger was never asked to do anything special during the season.

[keg in kc]

Have we done a poll yet asking people what they want at QB, in terms of franchise versus...

(hey, you know, I'm not sure what you call a Mark Rypien-style quarterback. Maybe we need to coin a term for the regular guys)

In any case, maybe that's the real root of this discussion: should the Chiefs attempt to acquire a franchise quarterback or settle for a [whatever we eventually call a Mark Rypien-style quarterback].

[-King-]

Good grief.

The Steelers don't win a championship with Thigpen at the helm. Sorry.

Do they get there though? The defense only allowed an avg of 14.5 points per game. Any qb should be able to overcome that.

Ben made some spectacular plays in the superbowl though. I wont lie. He is better than Thigpen. But saying that Thigpen couldnt have taken them to the superbowl is ludicrous.

[keg in kc]

But still, I think Thigpen is more than a project.That's where we're never going to agree, no matter how long this thread goes. Because I think if Thigpen has any upside, he's not going to reach it for years and years.

[DeezNutz]

Do they get there though? The defense only allowed an avg of 14.5 points per game. Any qb should be able to overcome that.

Ben made some spectacular plays in the superbowl though. I wont lie. He is better than Thigpen. But saying that Thigpen couldnt have taken them to the superbowl is ludicrous.

Are you joking? Are you trying to get me to call you names?

I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to help fulfill a sick fantasy.

[-King-]

That's where we're never going to agree, no matter how long this thread goes. Because I think if Thigpen has any upside, he's not going to reach it for years and years.

Maybe so, maybe not, we'll never find out if we cut him though like some want to do. I haven't said he's the answer, just that he shouldn't be discredited for what he did last season.

[Hammock Parties]

I'd love to see Thigpen shitting his pants against the Ravens...I would relish that opportunity.

With Roethlisberger, the Steelers get swept by the Ravens and have to play three road games to get to the Super Bowl.

[-King-]

I'd love to see Thigpen shitting his pants against the Ravens...I would relish that opportunity.

With Roethlisberger, the Steelers get swept by the Ravens and have to play three road games to get to the Super Bowl.

You'd love to see a chiefs qb fail? :spock: I dont care who is at qb, I hope they succeed. If we choose Sanchez, I will hope he succeeds, yet you are here hoping that Thigpen would fail. :doh!:

[DeezNutz]

The Steelers weren't the '95 Chiefs.

Wonder why that was?

[keg in kc]

Ben made some spectacular plays in the superbowl though. I wont lie. He is better than Thigpen. But saying that Thigpen couldnt have taken them to the superbowl is ludicrous.The Steelers won 6 games by a touchdown or less. The way Thigpen's play consistently deteriorated after the first quarter, and the way he played in the 2 minute drill, my guess is they'd have lost half or more of those games (assuming he didn't throw the game away prior to that point). In which case they finish 9-7 or worse, and don't even make the playoffs.

Just my opinion of course. And that's without even going into the inherent differences between Roethlisberger and Thigpen as quarterbacks. I mean, seriously, we're talking about a 'bad' season for BR, when he completed a shade under 60% of his passes and had a rating over 80.

My guess is if they switch teams, the Steelers win significantly less than 12 games (7 to 9), and the Chiefs win significantly more than 2 (6 or 7).

[SAUTO]

You'd love to see a chiefs qb fail? :spock: I dont care who is at qb, I hope they succeed. If we choose Sanchez, I will hope he succeeds, yet you are here hoping that Thigpen would fail. :doh!:

some on this board will root against our players just so they can be right about something they said long ago

[keg in kc]

Maybe so, maybe not, we'll never find out if we cut him though like some want to do. I haven't said he's the answer, just that he shouldn't be discredited for what he did last season.Well, I've never said to scrap him, but in my mind he shouldn't be over 2nd on the depth chart, and hopefully he'll be 3rd. Let him compete in camp and work his way up if he can, but he didn't do anything to earn a starting job last year, not in my mind.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Can you explain this? I don't understand what you mean by this.

I thought I covered this earlier.

I personally think that Jay Cutler has all the physical tools, mental makeup and overall potential to lead a team to a SB win.

Doesn't mean that he will.

In Cassel's case, I don't believe he has those things.

However, that doesn't mean he won't.

Again, I'm just looking for people's opinions - do they think Thigpen has all the physical tools, mental makeup and overall potential to lead a team to a SB win - not that he will or won't actually win one.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I think they're probably reading pro-Thigpen folks the other way, thinking that people are excusing Thigpen for everything. And I'm guessing it's a lack of communication on both sides leading to all this.

Reality, at least for me, is that he's part of the problem as a whole. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. It's not just one or the other: the defense was bad and Thigpen shouldn't have been on the field.

He's a project, and you don't develop projects on Sundays, you develop them on the practice squad. Five years ago he'd have been playing in NFLE.

This.

As I've said before:

Tyler Thigpen wouldn't start for any of the other 31 teams in the league.

They wouldn't scrap their entire offensive scheme to install the pistol, so he could be moderately successful on the stat sheet.

BOTH the defense and Thigpen contributed to a 2-14 season.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Now I've seen it all. The Steelers would have won the Super Bowl with Tyler Thigpen.

Right.

I don't even know what else to say to that.

Good grief.

The Steelers don't win a championship with Thigpen at the helm. Sorry.

Who said it?

I either overlooked it, or have the guy who said it on ignore.

[SAUTO]

This.

As I've said before:

Tyler Thigpen wouldn't start for any of the other 31 teams in the league.

They wouldn't scrap their entire offensive scheme to install the pistol, so he could be moderately successful on the stat sheet.

BOTH the defense and Thigpen contributed to a 2-14 season.

NOW now you have said to me that thigpen's play cost us those games in the 4th qtr. i said blame the d you said blame thigpen

[keg in kc]

Who said it?

I either overlooked it, or have the guy who said it on ignore.KcChiefsKing, think you put him on iggy yesterday.

[Chiefnj2]

If he didn't improve from his current play - no way.

[-King-]

Well, I've never said to scrap him, but in my mind he shouldn't be over 2nd on the depth chart, and hopefully he'll be 3rd. Let him compete in camp and work his way up if he can, but he didn't do anything to earn a starting job last year, not in my mind.

If he's third, then we have a pretty good qb situation. Hopefully that happens.

[OnTheWarpath15]

NOW now you have said to me that thigpen's play cost us those games in the 4th qtr. i said blame the d you said blame thigpen

Uh, because it did.

Look at the numbers.

Keg posted them, something like a 40% completion rate and 40 QB rating in the last 2:00 of either half.

He progressively got worse as the game went on. Something like a 15% drop in completion percentage and a 45 point drop in QB rating from the 1st to 4th quarters.

Thigpen's shoddy 2nd half play meant the defense was constantly on the field. Still doesn't mean they can't make an occasional stand.

Both can be reasons, it doesn't have to be 100% one over the other.

I'd say 70% Thigpen's fault, 30% defense's fault.

[OnTheWarpath15]

KcChiefsKing, think you put him on iggy yesterday.

Looks like I made a wise decision.

[keg in kc]

If he's third, then we have a pretty good qb situation. Hopefully that happens.My best-case scenario is a street free agent (I have no idea who) starting the season with Stafford (or Sanchez, I'm not totally opposed to him) taking the job over during the season, unless he absolutely blows our doors off during camp.

FA is the insurance policy in case the rookie is slow out of the gate, Thigpen is there to compete and the insurance policy in case the rookie is slow out of the gate and the FA gets his head knocked off (which shouldn't happen with the right side of the line fixed).

The smart thing, for me, is to continue to develop Thigpen just in case he can be a quality quarterback, and then unload him for as much as you can get if he does.

[SAUTO]

Both can be reasons, it doesn't have to be 100% one over the other.

I'd say 70% Thigpen's fault, 30% defense's fault.

i would agree with the first and go the opposite with the second 30% thigpen 70% defense

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Impossible to tell. He hasn't even started a full season. The way he has played so far I would say no way, but young players can develop you know.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Uh, because it did.

Look at the numbers.

Keg posted them, something like a 40% completion rate and 40 QB rating in the last 2:00 of either half.

He progressively got worse as the game went on. Something like a 15% drop in completion percentage and a 45 point drop in QB rating from the 1st to 4th quarters.

Thigpen's shoddy 2nd half play meant the defense was constantly on the field. Still doesn't mean they can't make an occasional stand.

Both can be reasons, it doesn't have to be 100% one over the other.

I'd say 70% Thigpen's fault, 30% defense's fault.

I completely agree about his play in the 2nd half being a major contributor to the team's poor record, but that doesn't mean if given a shot he will be that way the rest of his career. There are enough doubts about him that you HAVE to take a QB if one is worthy at the #3 overall spot. I would love to have a guy like Sanchez or Stafford and I hope they do draft one of them. Right now it would be a major risk to bank on Thigpen being the guy, but he hasn't played enough to completely say he'll never amount to anything.

[OnTheWarpath15]

i would agree with the first and go the opposite with the second 30% thigpen 70% defense

That's fine.

I disagree.

Thigpen was the reason the defense was on the field constantly in the 2nd half, leading to crappier play than the 1st half.

FWIW, during Thigpen's starts in the Pistol, the defense gave up over 2 points more in the 2nd half than they did the 1st.

That may not seem like much to you, but when you factor in the fact that we couldn't score in the 2nd half, it's huge.

[cdcox]

I don't think it is as black and white as you are making this seem. Would you have voted yes for Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnston? Jake Delhomme to take his team to a Super Bowl?

People are making this way too hard. I would have voted no for those two and the other hundred QBs you could name like them and been right 98% of the time.

[OnTheWarpath15]

People are making this way too hard. I would have voted no for those two and the other hundred QBs you could name like them and been right 98% of the time.

Bingo.

[JuicesFlowing]

some on this board will root against our players just so they can be right about something they said long ago

:bravo: It took me 2 years to figure this out.

[patteeu]

I'm glad someone actually read the question.

Maybe you should have provided a definition of the word "lead" if you're going to put that much reliance on it. Cryptic polls are bad polls. IMO, any NFL quarterback "leads" his team (or at least his offense), even if he's fortunate enough to have a ton of talent around him that elevates his mediocre play into championship caliber offensive production. Any NFL quarterback who can avoid killing his team with boneheaded plays can lead his team to the Superbowl (and some of them, like Brett Favre, can do it despite the boneheaded plays) and Tyler Thigpen proved to the better than your average first year starter at avoiding boneheaded plays, AFAICS.

Edit: On second thought, I won't say that this is a bad poll because it's cryptic. It depends on what you're trying to poll for. If you're trying to poll for what people think the word "leads" means, it might have some value.

[stevieray]

That's fine.



Thigpen was the reason the defense was on the field constantly in the 2nd half, leading to crappier play than the 1st half.

...it's up to all 11 guys to keep the defense off the field.

I amazed that such high expectations were/are put on a guy whose start was completely hamstrung, and not by his own doing .

Every QB under Herm could barely stay healthy, let alone lead anyone anywhere..

How is it that Bowe has the potential to flourish under a different coach, but Thigpenwitit can't?

[Bowser]

I voted no, but if Dilfer can do it, who knows?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You know what the fuck I meant. It was his first significant playing time.

And given that most of his reps were with the third team, that 95% of the coaches' attention was devoted to getting Croyle ready to be the QBOTF, he was for all intents and purposes a rookie. In fact, given what I just said, he received a lot less grooming than an average rookie would in an offseason.

Bull fuck. Every fucking True Fan on this board always has the same goddamned excuse. Thigpen was a "rookie". No he wasn't. He wasn't even on the PS, he was on the active roster the entire time. He took reps in practice every week, sat in every meeting both with the entire offense, and for the position, watched the same goddamned film, and worked out in the same facilities with the same strength and conditioning coaches as everyone else.

The sonofabitch wasn't thrown in the hole like Andy Dufresne with nothing but Mozart and the Butt Sechs Offense to keep him company, he had access to the same facilities that every other piece of trash on that roster did.

People will come up with every reason to defend a 7th round pick from Coastal Carolina who couldn't work from any offense but the rat-fucking pistol, and they will come up with every excuse to debase two of the best quarterback prospects in the last 5 years.

What kind of bizarro fucktard universe do you guys live in?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

...it's up to all 11 guys to keep the defense off the field.

I amazed that such high expectations were/are put on a guy whose start was completely hamstrung, and not by his own doing .

Every QB under Herm could barely stay healthy, let alone lead anyone anywhere..

How is it that Bowe has the potential to flourish under a different coach, but Thigpenwitit can't?

Did we have to create an entirely new offense in order to make sure that Bowe didn't defecate all over himself every week, or was that Thigpen?

[DeezNutz]

How is it that Bowe has the potential to flourish under a different coach, but Thigpenwitit can't?

His fundamental skill set.

Obviously, anything *could* happen, but...

[Mr. Flopnuts]

you guys are so sold on sanchez and stanford you are blinded by the skills thigpen actually showed. He is such a danger to run with it that it reminded me of elway or young with his ability to excape the rush. Now i'm not saying he is the next young or elway I'm saying he has similar qualities. I think with some good coaching two or three years down the line he is capable of winning a superbowl.

Would you take a high school qb that kicked ass playing on dirt roads in Zimbabwe growing up but didn't have any idea how to line up under center and play organized football?

Because that in effect is what you're suggesting the Chiefs do with Tyler Thigpen who helped start the football program at Coastal Carolina. You can teach a lot of things, but if you have to teach the kid how to run an actual NFL style offense, you're about 3 years behind the curve with a 3rd year player.

[stevieray]

Did we have to create an entirely new offense in order to make sure that Bowe didn't defecate all over himself every week, or was that Thigpen?


Is Bowe running the offense?...Bowe had no problem defecating on himself regardless...like the oline, and LJ....

[OnTheWarpath15]

...it's up to all 11 guys to keep the defense off the field.

I amazed that such high expectations were/are put on a guy whose start was completely hamstrung, and not by his own doing .

Every QB under Herm could barely stay healthy, let alone lead anyone anywhere..

How is it that Bowe has the potential to flourish under a different coach, but Thigpenwitit can't?

C'mon, Steve.

You're seriously not comparing Bowe's potential to Thigpen's, are you?

If Thigpen did this in a pro offense, and not a gimmick offense that is easily adjusted to, people probably wouldn't be as hard on him.

If people even THOUGHT he was capable of performing in a pro style offense, people probably wouldn't be so hard on him.

Regardless of the offensive system, Thigpen does not have the characteristics you look for in a franchise QB, IMO.

[Chiefnj2]

The team as a whole sucked. Coaching, offense, special teams, defense. Saying 70% of the teams failure was all Thigpens fault is having gone full retard.

[chiefzilla1501]

This.

As I've said before:

Tyler Thigpen wouldn't start for any of the other 31 teams in the league.

They wouldn't scrap their entire offensive scheme to install the pistol, so he could be moderately successful on the stat sheet.

BOTH the defense and Thigpen contributed to a 2-14 season.

This is also the same team that under Damon Huard engineered a 9-7 season, but then fell to 4-12 when they lost Will Shields. The offensive line became horrendous in 2007. And it was a step above horrendous in 2008. And between 2007-2008, that same offense that went 9-7 suddenly became so lousy that they were barely able to score over 10 points from game-to-game. Your assumption very wrongly assumes that Thigpen or any solid QB could have operated behind the Chiefs' horrible excuse for an offensive line. The main reason the spread/pistol worked was not because it was all Thigpen knew, it's because it was the first offense that gave the QB a fighting chance to make plays--any defensive mind will tell you that rushing the QB becomes considerably more difficult when you run a spread look.

You can claim all you want that the pistol was installed to inflate stats. But the undeniable fact is that before the pistol, the Chiefs were getting crushed and were embarrassingly bad on offense. After Thigpen took over, a horrendous offense was becoming good enough to keep the team within games and often times one score away from winning games.

I agree that Thigpen needs to prove he can run out of a pro-style offense, but given that New England reverted to a dominating style of the spread two years ago and that the Steelers just won a Super Bowl with a spread offense, and given that the Chiefs' personnel on the line was not good enough for any QB to operate well in a pro-style offense, why is there such a negative stigma around the spread? Because there is a lot of debate right now as to whether the spread offense is becoming a hot enough offense that a lot of teams are going to start using it in the very near future.

[stevieray]

C'mon, Steve.

You're seriously not comparing Bowe's potential to Thigpen's, are you?

If Thigpen did this in a pro offense, and not a gimmick offense that is easily adjusted to, people probably wouldn't be as hard on him.

If people even THOUGHT he was capable of performing in a pro style offense, people probably wouldn't be so hard on him.

Regardless of the offensive system, Thigpen does not have the characteristics you look for in a franchise QB, IMO.

no, I'm focusing on what has been lacking here....coaching...

[OnTheWarpath15]

The team as a whole sucked. Coaching, offense, special teams, defense. Saying 70% of the teams failure was all Thigpens fault is having gone full retard.

Were you born an asshole, or do you work at it daily?

When I'm given TWO options, Thigpen and the defense, I need to make sure I reach 100%.

If you'd like me to give a percentage for every player on the team, I can do that.

But that wasn't was was being discussed.

All I said is that BOTH were responsible, not that they were the ONLY parties responsible.

[OnTheWarpath15]

no, I'm focusing on what has been lacking here....coaching...

Can't argue that, however you could bring in Bill Walsh, Mike Holmgren or any other QB guru to work with him, and it's unlikely you're going to get results, and if you do, it's YEARS from now.

You don't fall out of bed and learn to play in a pro style offense.

Some guys who played in one their entire careers still struggle when they get to the pro level.

[Tribal Warfare]

If Thigpen did this in a pro offense, and not a gimmick offense that is easily adjusted to, people probably wouldn't be as hard on him.






Precisely

[chiefzilla1501]

Bull ****. Every ****ing True Fan on this board always has the same goddamned excuse. Thigpen was a "rookie". No he wasn't. He wasn't even on the PS, he was on the active roster the entire time. He took reps in practice every week, sat in every meeting both with the entire offense, and for the position, watched the same goddamned film, and worked out in the same facilities with the same strength and conditioning coaches as everyone else.

The sonofabitch wasn't thrown in the hole like Andy Dufresne with nothing but Mozart and the Butt Sechs Offense to keep him company, he had access to the same facilities that every other piece of trash on that roster did.

People will come up with every reason to defend a 7th round pick from Coastal Carolina who couldn't work from any offense but the rat-****ing pistol, and they will come up with every excuse to debase two of the best quarterback prospects in the last 5 years.

What kind of bizarro ****tard universe do you guys live in?

I'm sorry that I live in such a bizarro fucktard universe where I believe that practice makes perfect. I've been through a lot of schooling. Anyone who has done school and work knows that there is absolutely, positively no substitute for real world experience. And how have I gotten better in the real world? Through training, through mentoring, through a manager that helped me figure things out, and from people who have been patient with me to make mistakes. And no, a bunch of Mickey Mouse reps on the practice team and some time in the film room with no coaches or players to help you learn what's going on is NOT real world experience.

You quickly forget that this team was in full-blast Brodie Croyle mode exactly one year ago. Bowe and Gonzalez were taking reps with Croyle. The coaching staff was devoting 95% of their attention to developing Croyle. Who had the time to coach and prep Thigpen? Who? Do you really think that his Mickey Mouse reps with the practice squad even came close to comparing to the first team reps and full coaching attention Flacco and Ryan got last offseason?

Yes, Thigpen has been here a season and a half. But think long and think very hard about how much time was actually spent on helping him during that time. How much time do you spend developing a QB that you dont even know belongs on your team or not?

You view them as excuses. That's exactly what they are. Thigpen hasn't had full access to resources. The "true fans" are challenging him to prove that he can be a good QB if he gets a full offseason with those resources. I don't understand why that's such a big issue. And I think it's comical that the stance of "at least give him one offseason to show what he's got" has become associated with Thigpen ball-washing.

[OnTheWarpath15]

You can claim all you want that the pistol was installed to inflate stats.

I've never ONCE made that claim.

The Pistol was installed because Tyler Thigpen is incapable of playing in a pro style offense.

[chiefzilla1501]

I've never ONCE made that claim.

The Pistol was installed because Tyler Thigpen is incapable of playing in a pro style offense.

You said: "They wouldn't scrap their entire offensive scheme to install the pistol, so he could be moderately successful on the stat sheet." -- that is implying that they were using the offense to boost his stats. But again, your second point assumes that there was a pro style offense worth going back to. Why is it so hard to believe that the pro style offense was scrapped because the offensive line was completely incapable of holding blocks in a pro style offense, regardless of the QB? As I recall, Bruce Arians ran a ton of spread looks. Do you think that's because he doesn't trust Big Ben to run under center? No. A large part of that was because the Steelers' o-line has been struggling and it was one of the only ways to give Big Ben at least some opportunity to create plays.

Regardless of why the Chiefs ran the pistol, it was the first offense in 2 years that had any kind of success. So we can argue all we want about how wrong the system is, but few would deny that it was far more effective than the pro style offense we had used the prior year and a half.

[DJ's left nut]

If Dilfer can do it, Thigpen can do it.

Put an elite defense and 2000 yard RB behind him and yes, Thigpen is capable of winning a SB.

Is he capable of being the reason they got there? Nope, and it's a lot easier to find an elite QB than it is to field one of the top 10 defenses of all time.

It can be done, but there are much better ways to do it.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

If Dilfer can do it, Thigpen can do it.

Put an elite defense and 2000 yard RB behind him and yes, Thigpen is capable of winning a SB.

Is he capable of being the reason they got there? Nope, and it's a lot easier to find an elite QB than it is to field one of the top 10 defenses of all time.

It can be done, but there are much better ways to do it.

So, you put two things that have only coexisted once in the history of the NFL together and he can win a Super Bowl.

Excuse me...I can barely contain my glee.

[wazu]

He can. I just doubt he would. Let's not forget that the offense was somehow actually the strength of this crappy team last year.

[DeezNutz]

So, you put two things that have only coexisted once in the history of the NFL together and he can win a Super Bowl.

Excuse me...I can barely contain my glee.

This is just one possibility.

He could also win a SB if he were surrounded by 10 HOFers on offense, with a top 10 defense.

Or, if there were a strike season, and Thigpen played with the scabs.

Yet another possibility.

Fuck. Me.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I'm sorry that I live in such a bizarro fucktard universe where I believe that practice makes perfect. I've been through a lot of schooling. Anyone who has done school and work knows that there is absolutely, positively no substitute for real world experience. And how have I gotten better in the real world? Through training, through mentoring, through a manager that helped me figure things out, and from people who have been patient with me to make mistakes. And no, a bunch of Mickey Mouse reps on the practice team and some time in the film room with no coaches or players to help you learn what's going on is NOT real world experience.

You quickly forget that this team was in full-blast Brodie Croyle mode exactly one year ago. Bowe and Gonzalez were taking reps with Croyle. The coaching staff was devoting 95% of their attention to developing Croyle. Who had the time to coach and prep Thigpen? Who? Do you really think that his Mickey Mouse reps with the practice squad even came close to comparing to the first team reps and full coaching attention Flacco and Ryan got last offseason?

Yes, Thigpen has been here a season and a half. But think long and think very hard about how much time was actually spent on helping him during that time. How much time do you spend developing a QB that you dont even know belongs on your team or not?

You view them as excuses. That's exactly what they are. Thigpen hasn't had full access to resources. The "true fans" are challenging him to prove that he can be a good QB if he gets a full offseason with those resources. I don't understand why that's such a big issue. And I think it's comical that the stance of "at least give him one offseason to show what he's got" has become associated with Thigpen ball-washing.

First of all, your and idiot.

Secondly, he's been here for two full seasons. He went through mini camps and TC somewhere else, but he was on the roster for all of 2007, and was with the Chiefs for all of '08.

Did we suddenly start discounting experience earned prior to coming to Kansas City? If so, let's go sign Ray Lewis, because he has no NFL experience and will have a 12-14 year career in front of him.

Additionally, why then do teams have quarterback meetings, offensive meetings, practices? Why do guys run routes and go through the offense after practice. Why do teams have playbooks, coaches?

Is there a magical beam of light that emanates from the urethra of the coach onto the QB who is the "chosen one" for the franchise, that allows only him to receive any coaching, or to improve in the offseason?

Or, are you just a fucking moron.

What we have gained from chiefzilla:

The draft chart is stupid
Practice is unnecessary
Players gain nothing from the scout team
Meetings mean nothing.

Why then even have an NFL? If your assertion were correct, why not just assemble a bunch of guys in a fucking sandlot and have them play, as there would be no difference in the quality level.

If Thigpen was given so little thought, why even keep him on the roster? We should have just stayed with Marques Hagans.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Neggggggggggggg-a-tory!
Neggggggggggggg-a-tory!
Neg-a-tory!
Neg-a-tory!
Neg-a-haaa-toryyyyyyyyyy!

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[Sweet Daddy Hate]

First of all, your and idiot.

Secondly, he's been here for two full seasons. He went through mini camps and TC somewhere else, but he was on the roster for all of 2007, and was with the Chiefs for all of '08.

Did we suddenly start discounting experience earned prior to coming to Kansas City? If so, let's go sign Ray Lewis, because he has no NFL experience and will have a 12-14 year career in front of him.

Additionally, why then do teams have quarterback meetings, offensive meetings, practices? Why do guys run routes and go through the offense after practice. Why do teams have playbooks, coaches?

Is there a magical beam of light that emanates from the urethra of the coach onto the QB who is the "chosen one" for the franchise, that allows only him to receive any coaching, or to improve in the offseason?

Or, are you just a fucking moron.

What we have gained from chiefzilla:

The draft chart is stupid
Practice is unnecessary
Players gain nothing from the scout team
Meetings mean nothing.

Why then even have an NFL? If your assertion were correct, why not just assemble a bunch of guys in a fucking sandlot and have them play, as there would be no difference in the quality level.

If Thigpen was given so little thought, why even keep him on the roster? We should have just stayed with Marques Hagans.

ROFL Beautiful.

[chiefzilla1501]

First of all, your and idiot.

Secondly, he's been here for two full seasons. He went through mini camps and TC somewhere else, but he was on the roster for all of 2007, and was with the Chiefs for all of '08.

Did we suddenly start discounting experience earned prior to coming to Kansas City? If so, let's go sign Ray Lewis, because he has no NFL experience and will have a 12-14 year career in front of him.

Additionally, why then do teams have quarterback meetings, offensive meetings, practices? Why do guys run routes and go through the offense after practice. Why do teams have playbooks, coaches?

Is there a magical beam of light that emanates from the urethra of the coach onto the QB who is the "chosen one" for the franchise, that allows only him to receive any coaching, or to improve in the offseason?

Or, are you just a ****ing moron.

What we have gained from chiefzilla:

The draft chart is stupid
Practice is unnecessary
Players gain nothing from the scout team
Meetings mean nothing.

Why then even have an NFL? If your assertion were correct, why not just assemble a bunch of guys in a ****ing sandlot and have them play, as there would be no difference in the quality level.

If Thigpen was given so little thought, why even keep him on the roster? We should have just stayed with Marques Hagans.

I love how you know all the answers and resort to calling people morons because they don't agree with you. I am in the process of building my altar to you, so that everyone may worship you because you are always right and everyone else is wrong. But I'm just a moron, so I don't know how to build one. I'll probably end up making one out of jello. And by the way, if you call someone an idiot, you should probably not say something like: "your and idiot."

Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong. Practicing with the first squad is NOTHING like playing with the third squad. Playing in the preseason against the third squad is like Pee-Wee football compared to playing against first string defenses. Throwing passes in practice is not even REMOTELY close to throwing games against live defenses in live situations. A third-string QB doesn't get nearly the same amount of attention from coaches or mentors as a first-string QB ESPECIALLY when that first-string QB is a young QB that everybody on the entire coaching staff and roster is trying to groom to be the QBOTF. And no, the QB position is NOTHING like positions like LB or DT or DE or RB, where you can be on the second or third string and still get a lot of meaningful reps in the game. You either play or you sit the bench--there is no in-between. I love how you believe that watching film, sitting in a meeting with other QBs and coaches, and throwing to third string receivers against third string defenses is even remotely close to any simulation of what real game situations are like.

Tell me where I'm wrong on any of those points. Thigpen did not get much coaching attention, he did not work with good receivers, he did not practice against good defenses, he had no experience actually getting put into the ring with real defenses. That's like a guy being told to build a house without any help from anybody and expecting that he can because he went to a few classes and saw how you build a house on TV.

Those aren't excuses. Those are clear examples of resources he did not have for 2 years and now has at his disposal. There are many of us that are merely asking what Thigpen can do if he has those resources. None of us have claimed that he's a surefire stud if he just works at it. We just claim that that he didn't have those resources and let's see how he does now that he has them.

[splatbass]

Either you think he has the physical tools and mental makeup to win a Championship, or you don't.

It's not a difficult ****ing question.



Those aren't the only two options. Another option, and a very reasonable one, is "I don't know". I don't think there is enough information to know.

[el borracho]

Thigpen maybe good enough to go along for the ride, but I don't think he can lead a team to the championship.

[wazu]

Thigpen maybe good enough to go along for the ride, but I don't think he can lead a team to the championship.

Well said. Now join the poker game in progress.

[DeezNutz]

Thigpen did not get much coaching attention.

You, or anyone else on this forum, have no idea how much coaching attention he's received. Yet you're using this as a piece of evidence to build your case.

Two can play the "pull a statement out of your ass game" and pass it off as fact:

Thigpen received 80% more personal attention in practice the past two seasons than any other QB on the roster. It's amazing he hasn't progressed faster.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

You, or anyone else on this forum, have no idea how much coaching attention he's received. Yet you're using this as a piece of evidence to build your case.

Two can play the "pull a statement out of your ass game" and pass it off as fact:

Thigpen received 80% more personal attention in practice the past two seasons than any other QB on the roster. It's amazing he hasn't progressed faster.

This.

[Mecca]

I didn't read through this entire thread but I'm gonna go with no...

And I'm also going to guess that it slipped into Doomy saying he can't make a decision.

Chiefzilla talking about how the draft chart is stupid and Thigpen can be a HOFer with practice because 6th rounders aren't any less talented than 1st rounders.

Chiefnj somehow trying to make himself look smart.

And in short the typical true fan base coming out to stick up for Thigpen and his "rookie" status and you know not even mentioning the complete gimmick nature of everything he did.

[chiefzilla1501]

You, or anyone else on this forum, have no idea how much coaching attention he's received. Yet you're using this as a piece of evidence to build your case.

Two can play the "pull a statement out of your ass game" and pass it off as fact:

Thigpen received 80% more personal attention in practice the past two seasons than any other QB on the roster. It's amazing he hasn't progressed faster.

No. I am obviously making that number up. But it was made in jest.

Brodie Croyle was labeled by the coaching staff to be the QBOTF. You had receivers working with him all offseason. Herm and crew knew they were going to sink or swim with the decision to stick with him.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that most of the coaching attention went toward Croyle.

[Deberg_1990]

Its nice to see the the overwelming vote going to: NO

[DeezNutz]

No. I am obviously making that number up. But it was made in jest.

Brodie Croyle was labeled by the coaching staff to be the QBOTF. You had receivers working with him all offseason. Herm and crew knew they were going to sink or swim with the decision to stick with him.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that most of the coaching attention went toward Croyle.

You said "he didn't get much."

You have no clue if this true.

[Reerun_KC]

I didn't read through this entire thread but I'm gonna go with no...

And I'm also going to guess that it slipped into Doomy saying he can't make a decision.

Chiefzilla talking about how the draft chart is stupid and Thigpen can be a HOFer with practice because 6th rounders aren't any less talented than 1st rounders.

Chiefnj somehow trying to make himself look smart.

And in short the typical true fan base coming out to stick up for Thigpen and his "rookie" status and you know not even mentioning the complete gimmick nature of everything he did.

If you would just copy and paste this in every thread, it would save us hours of reading the same crap...

[chiefzilla1501]

I didn't read through this entire thread but I'm gonna go with no...

And I'm also going to guess that it slipped into Doomy saying he can't make a decision.

Chiefzilla talking about how the draft chart is stupid and Thigpen can be a HOFer with practice because 6th rounders aren't any less talented than 1st rounders.

Chiefnj somehow trying to make himself look smart.

And in short the typical true fan base coming out to stick up for Thigpen and his "rookie" status and you know not even mentioning the complete gimmick nature of everything he did.

Exaggerate much?

I've said enough about the draft chart and it appears that everyone is going to exaggerate my arguments anyway, so whatever. And for fuck sake, go ahead and find me a single time that I ever said that a 6th rounder is as talented as a first rounder. I would never say that kind of stupid shit. I have said in every thread that first rounders are more likely to be more successful than later round picks and that I understand why they start games over lower-round picks. Go ahead and find me a single time I said otherwise.

Maybe I'll start making up arguments about how you think Matt Sanchez is a surefire HOFer and how Taylor Mays will be the #1 pick in the draft. Because it always makes you sound smarter when you exaggerate what someone else says.

[OnTheWarpath15]

FWIW - the results on the other board...

Yes - 35 (63%)

No - 21 (37%)


Almost a mirror image of this place.

I'm not sure whether to be proud of this place, or if I should feel like the kid who beat Terri Schiavo in a game of checkers.

[Mecca]

I didn't read a single post in this thread other than the thread header...I was guessing what you said...

Reading comprehension is hard.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

FWIW - the results on the other board...

Yes - 35 (63%)

No - 21 (37%)


Almost a mirror image of this place.

I'm not sure whether to be proud of this place, or if I should feel like the kid who beat Terri Schiavo in a game of checkers.

ROFL I hear ya'. I've begun the crusade at two other boards, and the results are pretty much what I expected.

[chiefzilla1501]

You said "he didn't get much."

You have no clue if this true.

DeezNutz, of course I don't claim to fully know if it's true. But do the math. Do you really think they weren't devoting most of their attention to Brodie Croyle? That's a tough argument to make that they weren't.

If we're going to nitpick over all those details, you can cut a hole on almost every argument on this board.

[Deberg_1990]

and you know not even mentioning the complete gimmick nature of everything he did.


You mean like this nonsense from the Cinci game:


http://www.kansascity.com/180/story/955624.html


•First play: First and goal at the 1.

Thigpen lined up in the shotgun, which told you right there what the Chiefs were thinking. They have lost all faith in Larry Johnson. There are good reasons for that — LJ has had lots of problems on and off the field. But it’s hard to believe that Johnson has become so useless that he cannot be counted on to plow up the middle for 1 yard.

“We used to just go,” Johnson said after the game, and there was a touch of nostalgia in his voice. He cannot get out of Kansas City fast enough.

This time, Thigpen tried to throw a crazy pass to Tony Gonzalez in the left part of the end zone, but it had no chance and fell incomplete.

•Second play: Second and goal at the 1.

This time, Thigpen started off behind center but then split out to be a wide receiver. Yes, it was the famed Wildcat offense, where the center snaps the ball directly to the running back. If there’s one sure sign of a bad football team, it is that when it comes down to it they will try to trick you rather than try to beat you. Johnson took the snap and ran up the middle and was stopped short of the goal line.

•Third play: Third and goal at the 1.

Thigpen again started behind the center, and it looked like this time — finally — the Chiefs would just try to slam the ball up the middle the way a football team should. But no, Thigpen faked the handoff, rolled out to the right and this time tried to throw the ball to Johnson, another play that had no chance. And the ball fell incomplete.

•Fourth play: Fourth and goal at the 1.

Thigpen took a step back and threw a fade pass to Bowe, who caught the ball for a touchdown. Unfortunately, Bowe also clearly pushed the defender to the ground while the ball was in the air, a textbook case of offensive pass interference, and the touchdown was nullified.

That was that. Eventually, the Chiefs did score the cosmetic touchdown thanks to an absurd defensive pass-interference penalty, but that’s not the point. The point is that there at the goal line, at the end of the game, the Chiefs showed themselves to be an utterly lost football team. Nobody trusted anybody. One yard might as well have been a mile.

[Mecca]

That's a good example, when you are in the shotgun inside the 5 or running the wildcat that tells me all I need to know about your QB.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

DeezNutz, of course I don't claim to fully know if it's true. But do the math. Do you really think they weren't devoting most of their attention to Brodie Croyle? That's a tough argument to make that they weren't.

If we're going to nitpick over all those details, you can cut a hole on almost every argument on this board.

Brodie was done after the first game. Tyler got PLENTY of attention after that, as Huard was the Vet and did not require it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Brodie was done after the first game. Tyler got PLENTY of attention after that, as Huard was the Vet and did not require it.

That's fine and that's true. And yes, that was true for a few games last year too. But the claim being made is that Thigpen had enough resources the first season and offseason to get better. I would argue that nobody in the Chiefs' organization, from the coaches to the players, paid very much attention to him until they knew Croyle was out for the season. And even then, I would argue that most seemed to be hanging their hat on the hope that Huard could find a way to limp the team on for a whole season. So he was basically a QB on the roster going through the motions, trying to learn a tough game without very much guidance.

I know people disagree. But I just don't think he got even close to the same access to help in his development as most traditional young QBs (and rookies) get. I'm not using that as an excuse. Again, I am just saying I'd like to see if he can improve this offseason if he does get access to that time and attention. If he doesn't improve, then so be it. Scrap him.

[Mecca]

Look man Thigpen wouldn't be subjected to nearly this kind of scrutiny if he had done the exact same thing from a pro style offense.

No one thinks the spread is the future of the NFL, this is the NFL not the university of Missouri.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Look man Thigpen wouldn't be subjected to nearly this kind of scrutiny if he had done the exact same thing from a pro style offense.

No one thinks the spread is the future of the NFL, this is the NFL not the university of Missouri.

Or Florida, or Texas, or Oklahoma!!!!:cuss::D

[Reerun_KC]

Or Florida, or Texas, or Oklahoma!!!!:cuss::D

I dont see him defending Kliff Kingsbury, or Josh Huepel? What about Jason White the Hiesman winner? How come nobody spent time working with him?

I guess people are working with Vince Young enough... Spending to much time with Kerry Collins...

[chiefzilla1501]

Look man Thigpen wouldn't be subjected to nearly this kind of scrutiny if he had done the exact same thing from a pro style offense.

No one thinks the spread is the future of the NFL, this is the NFL not the university of Missouri.

Mecca, the thing is, I like Sanchez. I am open to the Chiefs drafting him.
I 100% agree that good competition needs to be brought in and I'm cool with that if they decide Sanchez is the guy. To your point, I don't agree that the spread is a dead offense. It worked very well with the Pats in 2007 and the Steelers in 2008, and the Cards used it a bit in 2008 as well. It's starting to become a hot offense. However, I agree that it should be more of a base package if anything and to run it successfully teams will need to mix in both spread and pro-style looks, as the Cards did. So yes, Thigpen needs to learn a pro style offense and if he doesn't, scrap him.

I am not against scrapping or benching Thigpen. I don't deny that he has a LOT to prove if he is to keep his job. I just think he deserves a chance to fight for the starting job. I don't understand why so many people are so morally opposed to even giving him that opportunity.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Mecca, the thing is, I like Sanchez. I am open to the Chiefs drafting him.
I 100% agree that good competition needs to be brought in and I'm cool with that if they decide Sanchez is the guy. To your point, I don't agree that the spread is a dead offense. It worked very well with the Pats in 2007 and the Steelers in 2008, and the Cards used it a bit in 2008 as well. It's starting to become a hot offense. However, I agree that it should be more of a base package if anything and to run it successfully teams will need to mix in both spread and pro-style looks, as the Cards did. So yes, Thigpen needs to learn a pro style offense and if he doesn't, scrap him.

I am not against scrapping or benching Thigpen. I don't deny that he has a LOT to prove if he is to keep his job. I just think he deserves a chance to fight for the starting job. I don't understand why so many people are so morally opposed to even giving him that opportunity.

If you'd actually read people's posts, even the biggest Thigpen detractors have no problem with him competing for the job. Including myself.

Most of us just have the approach that he's not going to pick up a pro style offense in 4 months, therefore it's not much of a competition.

[Reerun_KC]

I don't understand why so many people are so morally opposed to even giving him that opportunity.

Its not about morals or how many "feelings" you have for a certain player.

IF you want to win in the NFL you have to always look at ways to improve. You have to replace guys like MaSLOWski with a younger fast player with a higher ceiling... Even though half the fanbase would of gotten down on their knees for a facial..

Its about making your team better, When you have an average or below average player filling that position, you upgrade that position with a better player or a player with a higher more talented ceiling...

You dont "just give someone a try" because he preformed so-so for a few qtrs each game he played in... Giving them a "look" or "try" to see what he can do, it a failures attitude. An attitude that championship teams dont associate with...

Like Jerry Glanville said to an NFL offical "You know what the NFL stands for? NOT FOR LONG when you make calls like that" Same for Pioli and Haley, NOT FOR LONG when you go into a season without talent at the most important position in the league... They need a QB that has the potential to be tops in the league to build on. IF they want someone that can win a few games and make a few plays, let the defense win, blah blah blah... They will be out of jobs, just like Carl and Herm...

The NFL is a business, a business to make money. Tyler Thigpen does not make your franchise money or win it championships...

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Its not about morals or how many "feelings" you have for a certain player.

IF you want to win in the NFL you have to always look at ways to improve. You have to replace guys like MaSLOWski with a younger fast player with a higher ceiling... Even though half the fanbase would of gotten down on their knees for a facial..

Its about making your team better, When you have an average or below average player filling that position, you upgrade that position with a better player or a player with a higher more talented ceiling...

You dont "just give someone a try" because he preformed so-so for a few qtrs each game he played in... Giving them a "look" or "try" to see what he can do, it a failures attitude. An attitude that championship teams dont associate with...

Like Jerry Glanville said to an NFL offical "You know what the NFL stands for? NOT FOR LONG when you make calls like that" Same for Pioli and Haley, NOT FOR LONG when you go into a season without talent at the most important position in the league... They need a QB that has the potential to be tops in the league to build on. IF they want someone that can win a few games and make a few plays, let the defense win, blah blah blah... They will be out of jobs, just like Carl and Herm...

The NFL is a business, a business to make money. Tyler Thigpen does not make your franchise money...

LMAO Thankfully, the only Chief I'd take THAT bullet for is no longer playing and on his way to Canton!

[keg in kc]

I don't think anybody's opposed to Thigpen competing for the job, I think people are only opposed to Thigpen being handed the job with no competition at all. Now, I would also assume that not many folks think Thigpen would actually win a competition against an halfway decent veteran or a franchise rookie draftpick, but that's another conversation.

[Reerun_KC]

I don't think anybody's opposed to Thigpen competing for the job, I think people are only opposed to Thigpen being handed the job with no competition at all. Now, I would also assume that not many folks think Thigpen would actually win a competition against an halfway decent veteran or a franchise rookie draftpick, but that's another conversation.

I have nothing agianst Pickpen... Nothing at all. He made the season somewhat watchable last year, until the second half when he would just disappear faster than Claythan at a queer convention...

I would welcome a little competition with a draft pick and thigpen... I would like to see if he could adjust to an NFL level offense and terminology.

Still guys like Stafford and Sanchez are both more polished in a pro-style offense than Thigpen... It wouldnt be hard for them to seperate themselves...

Agian, Thigpen needs to beat out someone to earn the job, He did nothing last year to earn it without competition... Except run his man pleaser in the offseason, thinking he is all that and a bag of chips...

[BigMeatballDave]

I voted no, but if Dilfer can do it, who knows?See, Dilfer didn't "do" it. That 'D' did it.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I have nothing agianst Pickpen... Nothing at all. He made the season somewhat watchable last year, until the second half when he would just disappear faster than Claythan at a queer convention...

I would welcome a little competition with a draft pick and thigpen... I would like to see if he could adjust to an NFL level offense and terminology.

Still guys like Stafford and Sanchez are both more polished in a pro-style offense than Thigpen... It wouldnt be hard for them to seperate themselves...

Agian, Thigpen needs to beat out someone to earn the job, He did nothing last year to earn it without competition... Except run his man pleaser in the offseason, thinking he is all that and a bag of chips...

ROFL Mecca's on FIRE tonight!!!!

[ChiefsCountry]

ROFL Mecca's on FIRE tonight!!!!

Thats Rerun, he just stole Mecca's sig.

[BigMeatballDave]

you guys are so sold on sanchez and stanford you are blinded by the skills thigpen actually showed. He is such a danger to run with it that it reminded me of elway or young with his ability to excape the rush. Now i'm not saying he is the next young or elway I'm saying he has similar qualities. I think with some good coaching two or three years down the line he is capable of winning a superbowl.LMAO Stafford or Sanchez would beat Thig out EASILY in TC.

[Mecca]

Thigpen would try to challenge them to a foot race for the QB job.

[Reerun_KC]

Thats Rerun, he just stole Mecca's sig.

Yeah being a poser....

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't think anybody's opposed to Thigpen competing for the job, I think people are only opposed to Thigpen being handed the job with no competition at all. Now, I would also assume that not many folks think Thigpen would actually win a competition against an halfway decent veteran or a franchise rookie draftpick, but that's another conversation.

No, I can agree with that. But I don't see many people around here arguing that the Chiefs shouldn't at least draft a first round QB. Those people are few and far between. It just seems like whenever anyone mentions that Thigpen has any hint of potential, there's just an avalanche of people pushing back.

I think Thigpen does have potential. And I think he's going to have to improve a ton to justify keeping his starting job. I just don't agree that people have put a stamp on him already and that there's so much pushback to the idea that people like me want to wait at least till the end of the offseason to make some kind of a judgment (keep in mind that we still support a top 5 pick for a QB).

[Mecca]

I just get tired of hearing about how we should take Aaron Curry or Michael Crabtree it hurts my brain.

[ChiefsCountry]

I think Thigpen will make a hell of career as a CFL QB. He is perfect for up north. Spread offenses, can run.

[keg in kc]

it hurts my brain.Quitcher bitchin. It's only a small pain.

[/rimshot]

[Hammock Parties]

Reerun's new schtick is beating on Thiggy instead of Herm...I love it!

[ClevelandBronco]

Absolutely. Thigpen could lead a team to a SB win.

But his surrounding cast would have to be phenomenal and they'd have to have the breaks go their way.

[ClevelandBronco]

I voted no, but if Dilfer can do it, who knows?

That's the word. "Dilfer."

That word is going to be pulled out by every team without a top level QB for the next couple of decades.

[Reerun_KC]

Reerun's new schtick is beating on Thigpen instead of Herm...I love it!I am coming after you next, Bitch!

[Reerun_KC]

That's the word. "Dilfer."

That word is going to be pulled out by every team without a top level QB for the next couple of decades.

People forget or just dont know, but Dilfer was a 1st round QB...

[splatbass]

I don't think anybody's opposed to Thigpen competing for the job, I think people are only opposed to Thigpen being handed the job with no competition at all.

Is there anyone who seriously believes that is a possibility?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Yeah being a poser....

STOP THIEF! :cuss::D

[ClevelandBronco]

People forget or just dont know, but Dilfer was a 1st round QB...

I think we're a bit unimpressed with what he accomplished in the NFL.

Still, he gets to wear the ring.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I propose the creation of a new smiley:

A green, pickle-shaped, vibrating vibrator as an auto-insert for the word "Dilfer".

Thoughts? Discuss!

I'm bored...

[Reerun_KC]

Is there anyone who seriously believes that is a possibility?

Heres the deal..

Pioli and Haley have to upgrade the talent on this team. There shouldnt be anyone feeling safe right now, Including TG. Herm left this team just like he did in NYJ, a complete fucking mess. This team was like Clark Griswold in European Vacation on the round a bout.... Look kids Big Ben, Parliment... And Herm just sitting there saying, we cant be lapped and laughing at himself....


We need talent and competition in alot of positions, not just QB... Yes they need to draft a QB, these opportunities dont come along often. Or they need to do what THEY feel is best and get QB's and talent in here for competition... IF Thigpen can grasp the new offense and beat out whomever he is competing against. So be it, If he can't, then so be it... HE HASNT EARNED SHIT, Except some serious Marty shower time man love with Tony G...

Pioli and Haley know what they have and know the cluster fuck Herm left this franchise in... They will do what they feel is best and put the best 53 players on the roster...

I feel the days of ballwashing players are over and the best players play, regardless of salary or fan facials given.

[Reerun_KC]

I think we're a bit unimpressed with what he accomplished in the NFL.

Still, he gets to wear the ring.

Agree 100%,

I was just saying, that was all.... You know how people get hung up on rounds picked and all...

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Heres the deal..

Pioli and Haley have to upgrade the talent on this team. There shouldnt be anyone feeling safe right now, Including TG. Herm left this team just like he did in NYJ, a complete fucking mess. This team was like Clark Griswold in European Vacation on the round a bout.... Look kids Big Ben, Parliment... And Herm just sitting there saying, we cant be lapped and laughing at himself....


We need talent and competition in alot of positions, not just QB... Yes they need to draft a QB, these opportunities dont come along often. Or they need to do what THEY feel is best and get QB's and talent in here for competition... IF Thigpen can grasp the new offense and beat out whomever he is competing against. So be it, If he can't, then so be it... HE HASNT EARNED SHIT, Except some serious Marty shower time man love with Tony G...

Pioli and Haley know what they have and know the cluster fuck Herm left this franchise in... They will do what they feel is best and put the best 53 players on the roster...

I feel the days of ballwashing players are over and the best players play, regardless of salary or fan facials given.

LMAO WINNER.

[doomy3]

I didn't read through this entire thread but I'm gonna go with no...

And I'm also going to guess that it slipped into Doomy saying he can't make a decision.

Chiefzilla talking about how the draft chart is stupid and Thigpen can be a HOFer with practice because 6th rounders aren't any less talented than 1st rounders.

Chiefnj somehow trying to make himself look smart.

And in short the typical true fan base coming out to stick up for Thigpen and his "rookie" status and you know not even mentioning the complete gimmick nature of everything he did.

Fuck off bitch.

[doomy3]

If you would just copy and paste this in every thread, it would save us hours of reading the same crap...

The irony...

[Mecca]

Fuck off bitch.

Did you actually say that because you generally do a pretty out of your way job to avoid making a decision on this.

[doomy3]

Did you actually say that because you generally do a pretty out of your way job to avoid making a decision on this.

That's because I don't think there's a way to make a definitive decision on this yet. Just like there's no way to evaluate Dorsey yet. And don't act like you didn't read the first page of this thread.

[splatbass]

I just get tired of hearing about how we should take Aaron Curry or Michael Crabtree it hurts my brain.

It's going to be fun watching the meltdown here if they don't pick a QB at #3.

[Reerun_KC]

It's going to be fun watching the meltdown here if they don't pick a QB at #3.

More like disappointment, not a meltdown...

But hey, we are Chiefs fans, disappointment is what we have come accustomed to loving and cherrishing...

[Mecca]

That's because I don't think there's a way to make a definitive decision on this yet. Just like there's no way to evaluate Dorsey yet. And don't act like you didn't read the first page of this thread.

I posted 3 minutes after I popped on the forum and I'm sorted by 80 posts per page I still haven't read this thread yet aside from where I started posting.

[Mecca]

It's going to be fun watching the meltdown here if they don't pick a QB at #3.

I don't know how one could take joy in watching their favorite team do something stupid just because it makes other people mad...

That would be like not wanting a player because you don't like the college he went to or because a poster likes that player...oh shit, sounds like Laz.

[doomy3]

I posted 3 minutes after I popped on the forum and I'm sorted by 80 posts per page I still haven't read this thread yet aside from where I started posting.

I honestly don't give a shit.

[Mecca]

I might go back and read it in a moment but it'll take 10 minutes and well I doubt it will be all that fun.

[doomy3]

I don't know how one could take joy in watching their favorite team do something stupid just because it makes other people mad...

That would be like not wanting a player because you don't like the college he went to or because a poster likes that player...oh shit, sounds like Laz.

Yeah, you're definitely a much better football person than Scott Pioli. So if he doesn't do that, we should all be upset because he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

[Mecca]

I honestly don't give a shit.

Damn panties in a bunch today?

[Mecca]

Yeah, you're definitely a much better football person than Scott Pioli. So if he doesn't do that, we should all be upset because he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

Is that what I said?

[doomy3]

Damn panties in a bunch today?

Yeah, pretty much. I am so fucking sick of this shit. This board is basically unreadable anymore with all the threads turning into the exact same railroading.

[doomy3]

Is that what I said?

Basically.

Isn't that the issue here? If he doesn't select a QB, then that is an incredibly stupid thing to do right? You obviously wouldn't do something that stupid, so that would make you smarter than him, right?

[Mecca]

That's generally what draft time is...

I just personally don't know how anyone after last year could want to see Tyler Thigpen be deemed our QB to go forward with.

I'm not worried about next year I'm worried about 3 seasons from now, I don't want to be sitting here as this 8-8 team that isn't good enough and has it's highest paid player as a OLB.

[Mecca]

Basically.

Isn't that the issue here? If he doesn't select a QB, then that is an incredibly stupid thing to do right? You obviously wouldn't do something that stupid, so that would make you smarter than him, right?

Well the Patriots recent draft history isn't exactly glowing so he can be critiqued the same as anyone else.

[splatbass]

I don't know how one could take joy in watching their favorite team do something stupid just because it makes other people mad...



You think it is stupid. That doesn't make it stupid.

I trust Pioli's judgment far more than I trust yours. At this point no one knows what he will do. I doubt even he knows, he is probably still evaluating the players on the team. He has a proven track record. You have nothing but your ego.

[splatbass]

Well the Patriots recent draft history isn't exactly glowing so he can be critiqued the same as anyone else.

How many SB rings does he have? How many do you have?

[Mecca]

Hey no one is above being critiqued, if he pulls off a draft similar to the Maroney Chad Jackson one I don't care who he is, it deserves to be called what it is.

Just like when Parcells burned a 1st round pick on Bobby Carpenter, no one is about it.

[Mizzou_8541]

How many SB rings does he have? How many do you have?

When did Mecca say that he knew something Pioli didn't? You seem to care quite a bit about letting eveyone know you don't care what he thinks.

[RustShack]

You think it is stupid. That doesn't make it stupid.

I trust Pioli's judgment far more than I trust yours. At this point no one knows what he will do. I doubt even he knows, he is probably still evaluating the players on the team. He has a proven track record. You have nothing but your ego.

So did Pioli tell you Thigpen was our future? Or that we don't need to draft a QB?

[Mecca]

When did Mecca say that he knew something Pioli didn't? You seem to care quite a bit about letting eveyone know you don't care what he thinks.

I don't get this argument he's making, just because someone has the job doesn't mean they're above being ripped on if you don't like their pick.

I ripped on numerous things I didn't like that the Chiefs did over the past several years and got these same reactions in the end I was right more than I was wrong.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Appealing to authority is a classic logical fallacy.

You may think Mayock is King Shit, but he should damn sure be criticized for the fact that he has Brandon Pettigrew ranked so high when he's basically a Daniel Graham clone.

[Mecca]

Appealing to authority is a classic logical fallacy.

You may think Mayock is King Shit, but he should damn sure be criticized for the fact that he has Brandon Pettigrew ranked so high when he's basically a Daniel Graham clone.

And that is exactly what he is, Mike Mayock made me want to punch him in the face when he went on and on about 'Pettigrew blocks unlike these other TE's who just want to be receivers and get down the seem'

And I was like um Mike a guy who can get in the seem is more valuable than a dude who just blocks...

He acted like he literally hated receiving TE's.