Gretz:Waters Learns It’s A New Chiefs World

[Tribal Warfare]

Waters Learns It’s A New Chiefs World (http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/waters-learns-it%E2%80%99s-a-new-chiefs-world.html)
February 27, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

Brian Waters gets failing grades for his first two tests in what is the brave new world of the Kansas City Chiefs.

The veteran guard failed to understand the message that was sent to him by Scott Pioli and Todd Haley.

And then he failed again when he apparently blabbed about his frustration and emotions and the information landed in the hands of Jason Whitlock and the Kansas City Star.

We hate to link to the Star for anything because they absolutely refuse to admit this site even exists. But if you haven’t read the story of an unhappy Brian Waters, then click here. We’ll provide a better written short version.

Waters did not like what he heard at the Pro Bowl about his new head coach. Gossip around the hotel pool with guys from the Arizona Cardinals was that Haley could be aloof and difficult to deal with. Waters decided to come to Kansas City and hear straight from the guys in charge what their plans are for this team.

According to the story, Pioli would not give him a meeting and Haley only had time to chat as they walked down a hallway in the team’s offices. Reportedly Haley told Waters that he could have gone out and gotten 22 guys off the street and won two games.

This attitude or in Whitlock’s word “arrogance” angered Waters and he then tried to contact Clark Hunt, who apparently would not take his call. That’s when Waters on Thursday called Haley and asked that the team to trade him.

Now Whitlock’s story does not quote Waters by name, and says the information came from someone with “knowledge of the situation.” Generally, that’s a player’s agent in that role. But Waters does not have an agent; he handles his contract stuff himself. So it’s pretty plain thanks to the detail in the narrative that the source of the information in the story is Waters himself, or someone Waters had spoken to in great detail. It’s either him or Haley and I think we are on very safe ground knowing it was not the head coach.

So, let’s say that everything in the story is accurate, at least to how Waters viewed what went down in the Chiefs offices. What should the average fan take from this?

I think the average fan already knows what Waters found out: that the whole world at Arrowhead has been turned upside down. The old way of doing things is out the door, and that goes for all facets of the operation.

Waters believed that as a nine-year veteran, team captain, Pro Bowler, team player rep and all-around locker room lawyer, he had the cache to walk in and get answers from those new guys in charge.

What he found out was that at Pioli and Haley’s poker table, he had no chips, he had no stake, he had no pull.

And from the view of Pioli/Haley, why should they spend even a minute talking with Waters right now? There are more important things to worry about like free agency, deciding on an offense, deciding on a defense, and preparing for the draft.

Plus, all they know is Brian Waters has been a starter on a team that has gone 6-26 in the last two seasons. What kind of answers does he have? What can they learn from him? Pioli can pull out three Super Bowl rings from his desk. How many winning post-season games has Waters played in? The answer would be none.

Whether this is the best way to handle players and people will be shown over the coming months and years. Pioli and Haley could have been more polite and handled Waters as if he was an asset that they still have available to them. But they are creating a new culture around the Chiefs and the way Waters was handled was likely done for a reason.

You can bet that Pioli/Haley have been told that Waters is a team leader. So they wanted to make sure the team leader got the message that things were going to be very different around the Chiefs. Whether it was done consciously or not, you can bet those two wanted to see how Waters handled the situation. They wanted to see if he could be their kind of leader.

And there were two ways Waters could have gone. He could have gone home, picked up the phone, called his teammates and told them “Boys, this is a brave new world and you had better buckle up and get to work because things have changed completely.”

Or he could have gone home, tried to go over the head of the new guys and then decided he didn’t want any part of the situation. To make sure the message was driven home, the whole thing was leaked so it could be made public.

For Pioli and Haley, their message still got out. Other players will hear of Waters’ story and quickly realize that things are very different around the Chiefs. Less established players will note how their buddy B-Dub was handled.

Brian Waters has always come across as a pretty sharp guy, and there’s no debating he’s been an asset to the team both on and off the field. But he missed the mark on this situation completely.

What he is soon to learn, just as Tony Gonzalez learned last year and just as Larry Johnson will learn as well, is that a player can’t fire a team. One of the things a player gives up when they receive those millions of dollars from management is the right to decide where and for whom they play. Waters can change that by staying home and forfeiting the millions. He has that right.

But his football future will be decided by the guy who wouldn’t have a meeting with him and the guy that apparently offended him.

It will be decided by two guys that gave him a test that he failed.

[Hammock Parties]

GRETZ NAILED IT!

[Rain Man]

I like how Gretz slams the Star by saying he would provide a "better written" version. I think this is the first column of his I've seen that wasn't full of grammatical errors and typos, so I'll bet he had it professionally edited.

[smittysbar]

Best thing he has EVER written.

[unothadeal]

I agree with Gretz but how come no one is saying Gretz is just kissing the asses of the new guys? If it was Carl I'm sure that'd be the case.

[FAX]

Hmmm. That's the first Gretz article with which I've agreed in a long, long time. Maybe ever.

According to the radio stations, Waters just showed up unannounced. Actually, in the real world, that could be considered arrogant - assuming, I mean, that Pioli and Haley had nothing better to do than to meet with him.

As for Haley's reputation, it's interesting that he is thought of as "aloof" considering that he's also known for getting in a player's face. The ass-kicking begins at the top. Hopefully, it will translate into some ass-kicking on the field.

FAX

[TRR]

I have always questioned why Brian Waters seems to think he is a spokesman for the KC Chiefs. I listened to Waters come off like an arrogant fool on ESPN when Herm Edwards was hired...almost like he just lost the conductor of his personal gravy train. You ever have your old relaxed, reliable boss quit or get promoted, and all of your co-workers are nervous as hell because they may actually have to prove themselves again? That reminds me of Brian Waters.

Waters needs to quit acting like a suit, and start acting like a player...a leader.

[PastorMikH]

[quote=Gretzt]Reportedly Haley told Waters that he could have gone out and gotten 22 guys off the street and won two games.[/b]



For some reason, all I can think of when I read this is "AWESOME!"


We're going to be different, hopefully better, but definitely different.

[RippedmyFlesh]

You ever have your old relaxed, reliable boss quit or get promoted, and all of your co-workers are nervous as hell because they may actually have to prove themselves again? That reminds me of Brian Waters.

Agree 100%
This team was too content to go 2-14 last year.
There should have been more frustration more locker room disharmony.
The fact there wasn't tells me this group of chiefs was content being a doormat.
Like Tony saying thigpen should be qb next year.
HELLO??!! You were 2-14 which means you sucked so things have to change.
Bet Thigpen won't be shooting off his mouth anymore saying he "deserves" to start next year.

[Huffman83]

That whole "22 guys off the street." could have won 2 games.

......22 guys pretty much did!

[Marco Polo]

That was pretty damn good.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Best thing Gretz has ever written, IMO.

[Red Beans]

Pulitzer...

[TRR]

Agree 100%
This team was to content to go 2-14 last year.
There should have been more frustration more locker room disharmony.
The fact there wasn't tells me this group of chiefs was content being a dorrmat.
Like Tony saying thigpen should be qb next year.
HELLO??!! You were 2-14 which means you sucked so things have to change.
Bet Thigpen won't be shooting off his mouth anymore saying he "deserves" to start next year.

I agree with you as well. Most of the players seemed pretty egotistical for being a 2-14 team.

[stevieray]

ding!

fries are done.

[BigRock]

I can't wait for Whitlock's follow-up on this story. You know he had to be giddy at the thought of getting a huge dig in on the new brass, and for much of the reaction to be "Why did Waters think he could just show up and Pioli and Haley would drop everything?" has to be sticking in his craw.

[StcChief]

Well players on a 2-14 team should be thinking with new guys will have to re-apply for their old jobs. Does their Players Union instill this BS behavior?

[Mecca]

Well players on a 2-14 team should be thinking with new guys will have to re-apply for their old jobs. Does their Players Union instill this BS behavior?

Dick Vermiel and Herm Edwards did...our players act like they accomplished something and should be treated like they are great.

[Hammock Parties]

Dick Vermiel and Herm Edwards did...our players act like they accomplished something and should be treated like they are great.

"We didn't get accomplished what we wanted to get accomplished. But did we fail? No way."

- Vermeil's parting dumbassery.

[TEX]

I agree with Gretz but how come no one is saying Gretz is just kissing the asses of the new guys? If it was Carl I'm sure that'd be the case.

I was thinking that he is right in his opinion, AND he's kissing ass...

[Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan]

I'm thinking Gretz read this board last night *grin*

[FAX]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX

[sodcat]

Guess LJ wont be marching in there anytime soon demanding anything! Good read Gretz!

[TRR]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX

I agree, and the bottom line is that it's not like Brett Favre coming into to talk to Haley and Pioli. Or Peyton Manning, or a player of that caliber. We are talking about Brian Waters here. While he is a good player, he is an offensive guard who's skills are on the decline ever since big Willie Roaf retired.

I like Brian Waters, but to borrow a phrase, "know your role and shut your mouth."

[Marco Polo]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX

This.

[MVChiefFan]

If he strolled in unannounced and demanded an audience with everyone in charge, then he has nothing to complain about because that's just rediculous. Besides, I just don't know about all this "poolside conversation" with the Arizona players about Haley. Wasn't Haley invited by Fitzgerald to Hawaii? I don't have any immediate plans to invite someone I hate to go on vacation with me.

[KChiefs1]

Man that was awesome to read....my friends the times are a changin' at Arrowhead!

[Hammock Parties]

Haley is an asshole.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20090206/capt.607e3d1557a344fc951466bc282a3310.chiefs_haley_football_kscr110.jpg

[Red Beans]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX
:clap: Mr. Fax I don't think it gets any more correct than that.

[kcxiv]

You ever have your old relaxed, reliable boss quit or get promoted, and all of your co-workers are nervous as hell because they may actually have to prove themselves again? That reminds me of Brian Waters.

Agree 100%
This team was too content to go 2-14 last year.
There should have been more frustration more locker room disharmony.
The fact there wasn't tells me this group of chiefs was content being a dorrmat.
Like Tony saying thigpen should be qb next year.
HELLO??!! You were 2-14 which means you sucked so things have to change.
Bet Thigpen won't be shooting off his mouth anymore saying he "deserves" to start next year.

To tell you the truth i hope Thigpen takes the i need to start attitude and keep it. Even if he doesnt start and he's 3rd. I like a guy who wants to play who feels he should be the guy even if the Coaches think different. Thats the kind of player i want on the Chiefs.

[the Talking Can]

all Waters had to do WAS CALL FIRST.....like any normal human would

that makes him arrogant or stupid


then he went and cried like a punk to Fatlock for the sole purpose of embarrassing our new GM and undermining our new coach

that makes him a selfish bitch


we can replace a guard...easy....

[MMXcalibur]

I believe that this "bitchsmack" was a predetermined event by Pioli and Haley.

It doesn't matter whether it was Brian Waters, Tony Gonzalez or Larry Johnson that this happened to. This was going to happen to whomever was the first player on this Chiefs team to speak up and demand they get special treatment. Of course, it's unfortunate that it was Brian Waters because of his standing in the locker room and in the Kansas City community, but he's no higher on the Chiefs pecking order than the 7th round rookie we pick up in this year's draft. You go through your "chain of command" and let it work from there.

I don't like that it happened to a great guy like Waters, but it was a necessity that Pioli and Haley squash this "me-first" mentality that some of the Chiefs veterans are starting to establish.

[Deberg_1990]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX

Right on brother. Truer words have never been typed.

[the Talking Can]

I believe that this "bitchsmack" was a predetermined event by Pioli and Haley.

It doesn't matter whether it was Brian Waters, Tony Gonzalez or Larry Johnson that this happened to. This was going to happen to whomever was the first player on this Chiefs team to speak up and demand they get special treatment. Of course, it's unfortunate that it was Brian Waters because of his standing in the locker room and in the Kansas City community, but he's no higher on the Chiefs pecking order than the 7th round rookie we pick up in this year's draft. You go through your "chain of command" and let it work from there.

I don't like that it happened to a great guy like Waters, but it was a necessity that Pioli and Haley squash this "me-first" mentality that some of the Chiefs veterans are starting to establish.

they predetermined that Waters would show up out of the blue without calling?

[OnTheWarpath15]

they predetermined that Waters would show up out of the blue without calling?

He's saying that they might have been expecting SOMEONE to make this kind of move, and it just happened to be Waters. Could have just as easily been TG or LJ

It doesn't matter whether it was Brian Waters, Tony Gonzalez or Larry Johnson that this happened to. This was going to happen to whomever was the first player on this Chiefs team to speak up and demand they get special treatment.

[MTG#10]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX

I hope you dont mind, this was such a great post I copied/pasted it to another forum I frequent. I made it clear that it wasnt my own post.

[MMXcalibur]

they predetermined that Waters would show up out of the blue without calling?

No, the "predetermined" is what their actions would be on the first individual under this new regime who decided he should receive more special treatment than any other player on the Chiefs.

[kysirsoze]

Wow. Gretz FTW. Gotta say I'm shocked.

[the Talking Can]

He's saying that they might have been expecting SOMEONE to make this kind of move, and it just happened to be Waters. Could have just as easily been TG or LJ

i thought pioli had made it clear that this is the way business would be....it isn't a special case, it's just how they roll....

which really makes Waters clueless....

[Dinny Bossa Nova]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever.

FAX

History is not my best subject, so correct me if I am wrong, but....

The last time the Chiefs were in the Superbowl, Richard Nixon was president. Was Clark Hunt born yet at that time?

Dinny

[FAX]

they predetermined that Waters would show up out of the blue without calling?

Pioli can read minds from large distances, forecast the weather, and make a beautiful woman's tittahs bigger just by slapping his thigh, Mr. the Talking Can.

FAX

[OnTheWarpath15]

i thought pioli had made it clear that this is the way business would be....it isn't a special case, it's just how they roll....

which really makes Waters clueless....

Tell me about it.

I have no idea what was going through his mind, unless this is a plan to get himself shipped out of town.

Regardless, it's a really dumb move on his part.

[Rain Man]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX

This may be the best single post containing the words puppy, punch line, degrees, dynasties, and Pioli that I've ever read on Chiefsplanet.


And for you people agreeing with Gretz, recall that he wanted to keep Greg Robinson, and then wanted to keep Herm and Carl. And he called us names. This is definitely just a suckup article to the new people in the big house.

[Fat Elvis]

History is not my best subject, so correct me if I am wrong, but....

The last time the Chiefs were in the Superbowl, Richard Nixon was president. Was Clark Hunt born yet at that time?

Dinny

Yes. He was 3 or 4 years old.

[FAX]

History is not my best subject, so correct me if I am wrong, but....

The last time the Chiefs were in the Superbowl, Richard Nixon was president. Was Clark Hunt born yet at that time?

Dinny

You are correct as always, Mr. Dinny Blues. For added perspective, here are some additional highlights from that year ...

US Population: 202,677,000
Average Cost of 3 Bedroom Home: $25,600
Average Cost of New Ford: $3,278
Average Cost of 1 Gallon of Gas: 35¢
Hit Movies -- Midnight Cowboy, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, Easy Rider
Hit Tunes -- Leavin' on a Jet Plane, Games People Play, Raindrops Keep Fallin' On My Head

Also ...

The Beatles break up.
Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin die.
Monday Night Football debuts.
IBM introduces the floppy disk.
Bar codes are introduced.
The LCD (liquid crystal display) is invented.

FAX

[teedubya]

I agree, and the bottom line is that it's not like Brett Favre coming into to talk to Haley and Pioli. Or Peyton Manning, or a player of that caliber. We are talking about Brian Waters here. While he is a good player, he is an offensive guard who's skills are on the decline ever since big Willie Roaf retired.

I like Brian Waters, but to borrow a phrase, "know your role and shut your mouth."

It's "Know your Role, and Shut your Hole!"

[Rain Man]

You are correct as always, Mr. Dinny Blues. For added perspective, here are some additional highlights from that year ...

US Population: 202,677,000
Average Cost of 3 Bedroom Home: $25,600
Average Cost of New Ford: $3,278
Average Cost of 1 Gallon of Gas: 35¢
Hit Movies -- Midnight Cowboy, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, Easy Rider
Hit Tunes -- Leavin' on a Jet Plane, Games People Play, Raindrops Keep Fallin' On My Head

Also ...

The Beatles break up.
Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin die.
Monday Night Football debuts.
IBM introduces the floppy disk.
Bar codes are introduced.
The LCD (liquid crystal display) is invented.

FAX

Yoko Ono cursed the Chiefs.

[Hammock Parties]

This may be the best single post containing the words puppy, punch line, degrees, dynasties, and Pioli that I've ever read on Chiefsplanet.


And for you people agreeing with Gretz, recall that he wanted to keep Greg Robinson, and then wanted to keep Herm and Carl. And he called us names. This is definitely just a suckup article to the new people in the big house.

But it's so true.

He may be sucking up. But he should be sucking up. We should all be sucking up to these football gods of New England. We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

[Rain Man]

But it's so true.

He may be sucking up. But he should be sucking up. We should all be sucking up to these football gods of New England. We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

Well, admittedly that's a good point. But it doesn't account for the fact that he called us names, and I'm not going to cut him a break until he comes on here and apologizes to me.

Hear that, Gretz? I am your Palestine, mister. I am the non-negotiating, unreasonable, bus-bombing, non-showering, swarthy, ululating thorn in your side until I hear an apology from you for what happened back in the early part of the decade.

[FloridaMan88]

Too bad Waters didn't show this intense outrage during the past 2 seasons when (under his pal Herm) the Chiefs won a combined 6 games.

Pioli should have told Waters, his plan for the team is rather simple... win.

[Bwana]

According to the story, Pioli would not give him a meeting and Haley only had time to chat as they walked down a hallway in the team’s offices. Reportedly Haley told Waters that he could have gone out and gotten 22 guys off the street and won two games.



ROFL

[brain1081]

I am absolutely appalled at the responses I'm seeing to what happened here. Bryan Waters is one of the few real leaders on this team and the only Pro Bowl lineman. Maybe he should have made an appointment to come see the Pioli or Haley but maybe he's never had to before and didn't think anything of it. He wasn't being arrogant but thought he was doing the right thing. Not to mention the fact that he was doing the right thing. He had heard bad things about his new coach and wanted to find out the truth. This is the right way to do things. He went straight to the horses mouth (Haley) and got a horses ass instead.

This was handled so poorly by Haley and Pioli that it's frankly sad. The message that they sent (intentional or unintentional) is that leadership and character are not good qualities for Chiefs players. Regardless of what that hack Gretz says, no logically thinking person would expect Waters to turn from this situation and start spreading the word that things have changed. *BTW - everyone that has said that this is the first time that you actually agree with Gretz, this in and of itself should be a big clue to you that you are on the wrong side of this. * The very best outcome of this situation is that Waters spreads the word that everything that has been seen and said about Haley is true. Then you end up with a whole team full of guys that resent their head coach before a single snap is played. Doesn't that sound freaking wonderful.

What should have happened is that Piolo tells Waters that he does NOT have an open door policy and that he would be glad to talk to him with an appointment, not this BS about how he's not interested in talking to him. There's a really big difference between setting a tone and just flat out being a prick. As far as what Haley said, it was way out of line. He basically just told his best linemen that they don't need. Now he gets to find out whether or not that's true.

Think about it this way. If you were concerned about the direction of your company right now and went to your boss' boss and was told he wasn't interested in talking to you about the new guy he just hired, then went to the new guy and he told you that a retarded monkey could do your job, so you should just be happy to have one. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed? Personally if it were me I'd be looking for a new job right away, wouldn't you?

[MTG#10]

I am absolutely appalled at the responses I'm seeing to what happened here. Bryan Waters is one of the few real leaders on this team and the only Pro Bowl lineman. Maybe he should have made an appointment to come see the Pioli or Haley but maybe he's never had to before and didn't think anything of it. He wasn't being arrogant but thought he was doing the right thing. Not to mention the fact that he was doing the right thing. He had heard bad things about his new coach and wanted to find out the truth. This is the right way to do things. He went straight to the horses mouth (Haley) and got a horses ass instead.

This was handled so poorly by Haley and Pioli that it's frankly sad. The message that they sent (intentional or unintentional) is that leadership and character are not good qualities for Chiefs players. Regardless of what that hack Gretz says, no logically thinking person would expect Waters to turn from this situation and start spreading the word that things have changed. *BTW - everyone that has said that this is the first time that you actually agree with Gretz, this in and of itself should be a big clue to you that you are on the wrong side of this. * The very best outcome of this situation is that Waters spreads the word that everything that has been seen and said about Haley is true. Then you end up with a whole team full of guys that resent their head coach before a single snap is played. Doesn't that sound freaking wonderful.

What should have happened is that Piolo tells Waters that he does NOT have an open door policy and that he would be glad to talk to him with an appointment, not this BS about how he's not interested in talking to him. There's a really big difference between setting a tone and just flat out being a prick. As far as what Haley said, it was way out of line. He basically just told his best linemen that they don't need. Now he gets to find out whether or not that's true.

Think about it this way. If you were concerned about the direction of your company right now and went to your boss' boss and was told he wasn't interested in talking to you about the new guy he just hired, then went to the new guy and he told you that a retarded monkey could do your job, so you should just be happy to have one. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed? Personally if it were me I'd be looking for a new job right away, wouldn't you?

Shut up n00b.

[Mecca]

Go ask your boss for a sit down meeting about the future of the company when he's in the midst of the busiest period of his year...watch what happens.

[Hammock Parties]

I am absolutely appalled at the responses I'm seeing to what happened here. Bryan Waters is one of the few real leaders on this team and the only Pro Bowl lineman. Maybe he should have made an appointment to come see the Pioli or Haley but maybe he's never had to before and didn't think anything of it. He wasn't being arrogant but thought he was doing the right thing. Not to mention the fact that he was doing the right thing. He had heard bad things about his new coach and wanted to find out the truth. This is the right way to do things. He went straight to the horses mouth (Haley) and got a horses ass instead.

This was handled so poorly by Haley and Pioli that it's frankly sad. The message that they sent (intentional or unintentional) is that leadership and character are not good qualities for Chiefs players. Regardless of what that hack Gretz says, no logically thinking person would expect Waters to turn from this situation and start spreading the word that things have changed. *BTW - everyone that has said that this is the first time that you actually agree with Gretz, this in and of itself should be a big clue to you that you are on the wrong side of this. * The very best outcome of this situation is that Waters spreads the word that everything that has been seen and said about Haley is true. Then you end up with a whole team full of guys that resent their head coach before a single snap is played. Doesn't that sound freaking wonderful.

What should have happened is that Piolo tells Waters that he does NOT have an open door policy and that he would be glad to talk to him with an appointment, not this BS about how he's not interested in talking to him. There's a really big difference between setting a tone and just flat out being a prick. As far as what Haley said, it was way out of line. He basically just told his best linemen that they don't need. Now he gets to find out whether or not that's true.

Think about it this way. If you were concerned about the direction of your company right now and went to your boss' boss and was told he wasn't interested in talking to you about the new guy he just hired, then went to the new guy and he told you that a retarded monkey could do your job, so you should just be happy to have one. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed? Personally if it were me I'd be looking for a new job right away, wouldn't you?

Hi, Whitlock!

[MVChiefFan]

Go ask your boss for a sit down meeting about the future of the company when he's in the midst of the busiest period of his year...watch what happens.


ROFL

[Hammock Parties]

Go ask your boss for a sit down meeting about the future of the company when he's in the midst of the busiest period of his year...watch what happens.

Usually I just tell Nick to STFU and STFD...that's what happens.

(I'm joking if you read this Nick...you know that).

[brain1081]

Go ask your boss for a sit down meeting about the future of the company when he's in the midst of the busiest period of his year...watch what happens.

Yeah, never been a problem. Normally, I go into their office (or email them) and then within the week it's done. Frankly, it shouldn't be a big deal for anyone that's confident in what they're doing to schedule an hour to ensure that their employees are happy. Typically this leads to overall production and word spreads quickly about the future to other employees. On the flip side if the topic comes up and everyone is refusing to talk about it then that spreads quickly too and production goes down. You don't know much about management or economics in general do you?

[Boris The Great]

The saddest thing here is that big bad team leader Brian Waters ran crying to Whitlock to get his story out. Say what you will about LJ, but you are never going to read from unnamed sources in the Star about how LJ wants out. You wont need to read it because you will see LJ standing out there front and center, saying it himself.

Just another example in the long line of guys who got pussified in the first half of this decade. Dante didnt get treated special anymore, so he wanted out. Trent wasnt going to be handed a starting job, so he wanted out. Tony didnt get to pick and choose how he got to break a record, so he hopped onto the bitch seat and pouted. Now Waters joins the club, hiding behind Whitlock instead of being his own man.

Some of these guys are good players, but they sure as shit arent leaders.

[OnTheWarpath15]

The saddest thing here is that big bad team leader Brian Waters ran crying to Whitlock to get his story out. Say what you will about LJ, but you are never going to read from unnamed sources in the Star about how LJ wants out. You wont need to read it because you will see LJ standing out there front and center, saying it himself.

Just another example in the long line of guys who got pussified in the first half of this decade. Dante didnt get treated special anymore, so he wanted out. Trent wasnt going to be handed a starting job, so he wanted out. Tony didnt get to pick and choose how he got to break a record, so he hopped onto the bitch seat and pouted. Now Waters joins the club, hiding behind Whitlock instead of being his own man.

Some of these guys are good players, but they sure as shit arent leaders.

Good post.

[PastorMikH]

Too bad Waters didn't show this intense outrage during the past 2 seasons when (under his pal Herm) the Chiefs won a combined 6 games.

Pioli should have told Waters, his plan for the team is rather simple... win.


Kinda sounds like Eric Hicks - Hicks wasn't upset about losing, he was upset when the Commisioner popped a joke about the Chiefs D. Waters doesn't seem to be nearly as upset about losing so many games as he is about not getting the "Respect" he thinks he's due at Arrowhead.

[FAX]

... And for you people agreeing with Gretz, recall that he wanted to keep Greg Robinson, and then wanted to keep Herm and Carl. And he called us names. This is definitely just a suckup article to the new people in the big house.

All very true, Mr. Rain Man. All very true.

But remember, on occasion, even a blind hog can activate an experimental high intensity subatomic particle accelerator.

FAX

[FAX]

Well, admittedly that's a good point. But it doesn't account for the fact that he called us names, and I'm not going to cut him a break until he comes on here and apologizes to me.

Hear that, Gretz? I am your Palestine, mister. I am the non-negotiating, unreasonable, bus-bombing, non-showering, swarthy, ululating thorn in your side until I hear an apology from you for what happened back in the early part of the decade.

If you are going to ululate on this board, Mr. Rain Man, I expect you to wipe afterwards.

FAX

[huskerdooz]

Haley is an asshole.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20090206/capt.607e3d1557a344fc951466bc282a3310.chiefs_haley_football_kscr110.jpg


Somewhat like yourself?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

GRETZ NAILED IT!

Yep. Gretz went up, down, and around the bend, but he pretty much vocalized my first take and particular view of the matter.

Now, what's up for the Centaur? That should be very interesting...

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yep. Gretz went up, down, and around the bend, but he pretty much vocalized my first take and particular view of the matter.

Now, what's up for the Centaur? That should be very interesting...

Hopefully Pioli can sucker someone into giving us a late round pick to replace the one we're all guessing he gave up for Vrabel.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Hopefully Pioli can sucker someone into giving us a late round pick to replace the one we're all guessing he gave up for Vrabel.

If anyone can do "suckering", I'm sure it's him. I haven't even weighed in on New Guy because I don't know anything about him. Some people think it's a bad move in terms of pure player performance or trade value, some people think it's a good move in terms of defensive leadership.

Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure sentiment has no role in it whatsoever. We'll see.

[brain1081]

I sure hope you're right. So far Pioli has not lived up to the billing. Of course they haven't played a game yet, so I reserve the right to be on board for Chiefs in '09. :)

[R&GHomer]

You know, this whole deal has reminded me of something.

The Chiefs have sucked for a long, long time. There have been different degrees of that suck, but the bottom line is that we have been incapable of winning a playoff game - in, like, forever. You have to assume that, throughout the league, the Chiefs are viewed as doormats, pushovers, and pussies. Now, after two of the worst years any team - that's any team - in the history of the league has ever had (we've set records in a variety of suck categories), our reputation as an organization has to be at its lowest ebb.

Enter Scott Pioli. Former executive with a dominant organization. Multiple Super Bowl winner. Builder of dynasties. Does anyone in their right mind (excluding Whitlock) believe that he's impressed with anything this franchise does? I think not.

So, for a player - even one of our best players - to get pissy about how he was treated by the new FO is laughable. A little puppy yapping at a big dog. Waters has learned the hard way that we are a joke and he's part of the punch line. If he's smart, he'll do an about face asap and get with the program. All other potential outcomes for him are bad.

FAX

Well said. I remember thinking to myself this morning when I read the withlock article. How in the hell does Waters think he can show up un-announced and expect them to drop everything so they can have a private meeting... WTF

Things have changed and..... WOW it feels good to type this! The days of mediocrity and bullshit excuses are over. Put up or shut up!

[Ultra Peanut]

Gretz is still a shill. Awesome.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I sure hope you're right. So far Pioli has not lived up to the billing. Of course they haven't played a game yet, so I reserve the right to be on board for Chiefs in '09. :)

I hate doing cross-thread repeats, but the short version is; the people who expected Ray Lewis and the like we're being unrealistic. You sign a Ray Lewis or a Randy Moss when you're on your way to the Super Bowl, NOT when you're doing the complete overhaul and basically starting from scratch.

Mr. Vrebl( Gerbil? Whateverthefuck )actually makes a lot of sense right now( depending on the terms of the trade, of course ); Pioli feels they operate on the same page. We're supposedly switching to 3-4. New Guy knows the 3-4. New Guy can help those retained on the defensive roster understand the 3-4, and be an older, more experienced leader. And unlike Lewis, New Guy is a serviceable stop-gap that doesn't cost a shitload of money.

It's all relative to what they're building right now, you just have to look at the long-term and the Big Picture.

[R&GHomer]

Yeah, never been a problem. Normally, I go into their office (or email them) and then within the week it's done. Frankly, it shouldn't be a big deal for anyone that's confident in what they're doing to schedule an hour to ensure that their employees are happy. Typically this leads to overall production and word spreads quickly about the future to other employees. On the flip side if the topic comes up and everyone is refusing to talk about it then that spreads quickly too and production goes down. You don't know much about management or economics in general do you?

LOL... you're ****ing kidding right? ROFL Who the hell do you work for?

Waters has always been a favorite player of mine, but, however unfortunate it ended up being him, the message has been sent.

[brain1081]

LOL... you're ****ing kidding right? ROFL Who the hell do you work for?

Waters has always been a favorite player of mine, but, however unfortunate it ended up being him, the message has been sent.

I work in IT for a law firm but it's not the only place I've been to like that. I honestly could not work for a company that doesn't have time for me, the one doing the dirty work to make the money. Maybe that's why we disagree on this,

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Gretz is still a shill. Awesome.

LMAO Good Lord man, what is that in your avatar? It reminds me of that old Eddie Murphy, SNL skit where he was made over in to a white man.

[FAX]

Peeps are so indoctrinated after 2 decades of Carl and almost 10 years of player's coaches like Vermeil and Herm, it's understandable that it will take time for players to re-orient themselves to a new way of doing business. Heck, it's been difficult for the fans and the media.

Unfortunately for guys like Waters, there's no one left to support them based solely on affection and common history. Even Clark has drawn a line in the sand and has demonstrated a desire to win that, apparently, even supersedes any loyalty he might have felt for Carl and Herm. That has to sting a little.

I think it was Parcells who is credited for the phrase, "You are what your record says you are.". But regardless of who said it, that will likely be the measurement used to evaluate our players going forward. The term, "player's coach" is little more than code for treating the team with kid gloves. It now appears that Haley prefers a claw hammer and a pair of rusty testicle pliers.

It kinda makes you feel sorry for the veterans, in a way, because they like their balls just as much as anybody else.

FAX

[brain1081]

I hate doing cross-thread repeats, but the short version is; the people who expected Ray Lewis and the like we're being unrealistic. You sign a Ray Lewis or a Randy Moss when you're on your way to the Super Bowl, NOT when you're doing the complete overhaul and basically starting from scratch.

Mr. Vrebl( Gerbil? Whateverthe**** )actually makes a lot of sense right now( depending on the terms of the trade, of course ); Pioli feels they operate on the same page. We're supposedly switching to 3-4. New Guy knows the 3-4. New Guy can help those retained on the defensive roster understand the 3-4, and be an older, more experienced leader. And unlike Lewis, New Guy is a serviceable stop-gap that doesn't cost a shitload of money.

It's all relative to what they're building right now, you just have to look at the long-term and the Big Picture.

Sorry for the double post but the conversation shifted slightly.

Maybe it's because I pay more attention to baseball but it seems that with all the extra cap room (as if that means jack next year) that now is the time to get a couple of really great players (not guys past their prime like Ray Lewis). I just hate to see draft picks given away when it's possible that you could've picked up a better player in FA.

[R&GHomer]

I work in IT for a law firm but it's not the only place I've been to like that. I honestly could not work for a company that doesn't have time for me, the one doing the dirty work to make the money. Maybe that's why we disagree on this,

I work in IT also... Worked for EDS, IBM and Sprint to name a few, so you'll need to give me a pass on believing I mean two shits to my employer.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Peeps are so indoctrinated after 2 decades of Carl and almost 10 years of player's coaches like Vermeil and Herm, it's understandable that it will take time for players to re-orient themselves to a new way of doing business. Heck, it's been difficult for the fans and the media.

Unfortunately for guys like Waters, there's no one left to support them based solely on affection and common history. Even Clark has drawn a line in the sand and has demonstrated a desire to win that, apparently, even supersedes any loyalty he might have felt for Carl and Herm. That has to sting a little.

I think it was Parcells who is credited for the phrase, "You are what your record says you are.". But regardless of who said it, that will likely be the measurement used to evaluate our players going forward. The term, "player's coach" is little more than code for treating the team with kid gloves. It now appears that Haley prefers a claw hammer and a pair of rusty testicle pliers.

It kinda makes you feel sorry for the veterans, in a way, because they like their balls just as much as anybody else.

FAX

ROFL Nice! Rep!

[FAX]

One of the things that Pioli and Company have repeatedly expressed over the past months is the notion of "getting it right" as opposed to "do something, even if it's wrong". My take - based on little more than gut instinct, management experience, reading between the lines, and voodoo smoke emanating from a candle made partially from black cat intestines and crow eyeballs - is that Pioli does not want to take 4 steps back just because they made a poor decision in the early going.

Ergo, I think that Pioli is trying to make "safe" decisions, Mr. brain1081. Vrabel is a known quantity to Pioli and, therefore, safe.

When you think of it that way, Vrabel makes a ton of sense. Pioli and Haley need somebody in the locker room who can walk the walk and talk the talk the way they want the walk walked and the talk talked because they're through talking and if you don't get it, you can start walking.

FAX

[Ultra Peanut]

LMAO Good Lord man, what is that in your avatar? It reminds me of that old Eddie Murphy, SNL skit where he was made over in to a white man.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YeP8UuGJsbY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YeP8UuGJsbY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

<object width="425" height="344">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YeP8UuGJsbY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

Wow. That was...interesting.

[brain1081]

One of the things that Pioli and Company have repeatedly expressed over the past months is the notion of "getting it right" as opposed to "do something, even if it's wrong". My take - based on little more than gut instinct, management experience, reading between the lines, and voodoo smoke emanating from a candle made partially from black cat intestines and crow eyeballs - is that Pioli does not want to take 4 steps back just because they made a poor decision in the early going.

Ergo, I think that Pioli is trying to make "safe" decisions, Mr. brain1081. Vrabel is a known quantity to Pioli and, therefore, safe.

When you think of it that way, Vrabel makes a ton of sense. Pioli and Haley need somebody in the locker room who can walk the walk and talk the talk the way they want the walk walked and the talk talked because they're through talking and if you don't get it, you can start walking.

FAX

I guess as an arm chair GM I don't see playing it safe as getting into the elite NFL teams, and that's where I want the Chiefs to be. I'm of the belief that the Pats built a solid core team and got a little lucky. Because of that I don't think that trying to duplicate them is the way to go. It scares me that the first thing Pioli did was to trade a draft pick (and seriously the news has been out for hours now, why can't I know which pick) for a player that probably isn't any better than a healthy (I'm not saying he will be but hypothetically) Donnie Edwards, that they just released. I guess the devil they know is better than the one they don't.

Please don't call me Mr. brain1081. Seeing that with the Hendrix avatar just isn't right. Just brain, man.

I worked as a contractor for Sprint (not to bash on a locally company while they're down, I still know plenty of people that work there and pray for them every day) and it's one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this. Being treated as a second class citizen there as opposed to how things are for me now... like I said, I would be looking for a new job.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I guess as an arm chair GM I don't see playing it safe as getting into the elite NFL teams, and that's where I want the Chiefs to be. I'm of the belief that the Pats built a solid core team and got a little lucky. Because of that I don't think that trying to duplicate them is the way to go. It scares me that the first thing Pioli did was to trade a draft pick (and seriously the news has been out for hours now, why can't I know which pick) for a player that probably isn't any better than a healthy (I'm not saying he will be but hypothetically) Donnie Edwards, that they just released. I guess the devil they know is better than the one they don't.

Please don't call me Mr. brain1081. Seeing that with the Hendrix avatar just isn't right. Just brain, man.

I worked as a contractor for Sprint (not to bash on a locally company while they're down, I still know plenty of people that work there and pray for them every day) and it's one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this. Being treated as a second class citizen there as opposed to how things are for me now... like I said, I would be looking for a new job.

FAX calls everybody "Mr.", it's actually somewhat endearing once you get used to it.

[smittysbar]

I work in IT for a law firm but it's not the only place I've been to like that. I honestly could not work for a company that doesn't have time for me, the one doing the dirty work to make the money. Maybe that's why we disagree on this,

Okay let me try to address this. You come to me on a busy night and want to meet while I am busy, it will not be good. I am the easiest going boss in the world (as they say), but if we are busy it isn't a time for small talk or any talk for that matter.

There was plenty of time for him to come/or call to talk, but he waited until one of the busiest days of the NFL? Pretty fucking stupid if you ask me.

The SOB is nothing more than a ass kisser, he always has been. Sure he liked Herm, he didn't make them do a fucking thing. TC was a joke, and it showed, lord forbid they have to work.

He is a millionaire because he plays a game, me personally I think he should give half his money to the big Willies, they made him look great.

Then he runs to Whitlock? What a puss, in the real world he would be unemployed...period.

[beach tribe]

I guess as an arm chair GM I don't see playing it safe as getting into the elite NFL teams, and that's where I want the Chiefs to be. I'm of the belief that the Pats built a solid core team and got a little lucky. Because of that I don't think that trying to duplicate them is the way to go. It scares me that the first thing Pioli did was to trade a draft pick (and seriously the news has been out for hours now, why can't I know which pick) for a player that probably isn't any better than a healthy (I'm not saying he will be but hypothetically) Donnie Edwards, that they just released. I guess the devil they know is better than the one they don't.

Please don't call me Mr. brain1081. Seeing that with the Hendrix avatar just isn't right. Just brain, man.

I worked as a contractor for Sprint (not to bash on a locally company while they're down, I still know plenty of people that work there and pray for them every day) and it's one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this. Being treated as a second class citizen there as opposed to how things are for me now... like I said, I would be looking for a new job.
I think you spelled your own name wrong Brian. If it IS Brain.....you should change it. After reading your posts, reading your name bothers me much more than Mr. Brain bothers you.

[Mecca]

Mr Brain......so where's Pinky?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Mr Brain......so where's Pinky?

Gearing up for his ESPN duties.

[milkman]

It scares me that the first thing Pioli did was to trade a draft pick (and seriously the news has been out for hours now, why can't I know which pick) for a player that probably isn't any better than a healthy (I'm not saying he will be but hypothetically) Donnie Edwards, that they just released. I guess the devil they know is better than the one they don't.

I can't say that trading a pick for Vrabel is something that I like, but Donnie Edwards is the most overrated player by Chiefs fans that I have ever seen.

I wouldn't trade Mike Vrabel for two Donnie Edwards.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I can't say that trading a pick for Vrabel is something that I like, but Donnie Edwards is the most overrated player by Chiefs fans that I have ever seen.

I wouldn't trade Mike Vrabel for two Donnie Edwards.

Amen to that. Donnie was knob-slobbed a hell of a lot for a guy who's name never popped out of the announcers lips!

Never ONCE did I ever hear "and there's big, bad D-ward with a shot that just knocked (x-player) right on his ass"!

The guy was practically non-existent outside of assists.

[scho63]

What I think really doomed Herm Edwards and his inability to coach the team to greater heights is that he made everyone his "buddy" and equal. They didn't respect him enough or get the big picture.
Pioli and Haley are going to make ALL the players realize that they are paid big bucks to do a great job and win games-that is their job. You don't do your job correctly or up to standards, you are gone no matter who you are. I like that!

I agree with Gretz

[brain1081]

Amen to that. Donnie was knob-slobbed a hell of a lot for a guy who's name never popped out of the announcers lips!

Never ONCE did I ever hear "and there's big, bad D-ward with a shot that just knocked (x-player) right on his ass"!

The guy was practically non-existent outside of assists.

That's perception over fact.
Donnie Edwards 1996 - 2008: 1133 Tackles, 365 Assists, 15 Forced Fumbles, 23.5 Sacks, 28 INT

Mike Vrabel 1997 - 2008: 431 Tackles, 197 Assists, 16 Forced Fumbles, 55 Sacks, 11 INT

Vrabel is the better pass rusher but Donnie is better in just about every other area. Like I said, the only question about Donnie was his health. Why is everyone so ready to stand in line to go suck Piolo off on this board?

Optimism is fine but you guys act like he can do no wrong. Let me tell he can and already has done wrong to Bryan Waters. If you would fire an employee for asking to have a 1 on 1 during a busy period, then you're a pretty horrible manager, it doesn't take much to say something like "talk to me about this later". Seriously, if you told that employee you were uninterested in talking to them then they would quit. Anyone that says they wouldn't start looking for a new job right away is lying to themselves. Hell, I setup the scenario for my 8 year old. The first thing she said was that Pioli was rude. The guys a dick. I don't care how many Super Bowls he won in New England, he hasn't done jack here and doesn't have the right to treat any person like that.

It is brain. It's just a nick name so chill man.

[smittysbar]

That's perception over fact.
Donnie Edwards 1996 - 2008: 1133 Tackles, 365 Assists, 15 Forced Fumbles, 23.5 Sacks, 28 INT

Mike Vrabel 1997 - 2008: 431 Tackles, 197 Assists, 16 Forced Fumbles, 55 Sacks, 11 INT

Vrabel is the better pass rusher but Donnie is better in just about every other area. Like I said, the only question about Donnie was his health. Why is everyone so ready to stand in line to go suck Piolo off on this board?

Optimism is fine but you guys act like he can do no wrong. Let me tell he can and already has done wrong to Bryan Waters. If you would fire an employee for asking to have a 1 on 1 during a busy period, then you're a pretty horrible manager, it doesn't take much to say something like "talk to me about this later". Seriously, if you told that employee you were uninterested in talking to them then they would quit. Anyone that says they wouldn't start looking for a new job right away is lying to themselves. Hell, I setup the scenario for my 8 year old. The first thing she said was that Pioli was rude. The guys a dick. I don't care how many Super Bowls he won in New England, he hasn't done jack here and doesn't have the right to treat any person like that.

It is brain. It's just a nick name so chill man.

First off you really don't know how anyone was treated, as we only have half the story. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO GET!!!!!

Second, no I wouldn't be looking for a new job, as he is making a shit ton of money.

Bottom line is, I don't know, you don't know, and we may never know what happened. To act like we do, is fucking stupid.

[brain1081]

First off you really don't know how anyone was treated, as we only have half the story. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO GET!!!!!

Second, no I wouldn't be looking for a new job, as he is making a shit ton of money.

Bottom line is, I don't know, you don't know, and we may never know what happened. To act like we do, is ****ing stupid.

Good point, we don't have all the information and probably never will. That said I'm going to trust the guy that has been reported to be a leader, has always shown character and class, and was a finalist for NFL Man of the Year Award. Especially when you consider Haley's reputation for being an arrogant dick. Now we get Waters said and pretty much everything lines up. There's no reason not to believe that this is what happened.

Yeah, he makes a ton of money and has made a ton of money already. Why would he want to be a part of a team that doesn't care about him when he could retire right now and live out the rest of his life without having to worry about money?

[chiefforlife]

Good point, we don't have all the information and probably never will. That said I'm going to trust the guy that has been reported to be a leader, has always shown character and class, and was a finalist for NFL Man of the Year Award. Especially when you consider Haley's reputation for being an arrogant dick. Now we get Waters said and pretty much everything lines up. There's no reason not to believe that this is what happened.

Yeah, he makes a ton of money and has made a ton of money already. Why would he want to be a part of a team that doesn't care about him when he could retire right now and live out the rest of his life without having to worry about money?

Then go, GTFO! He wasnt hired as Head Coach or GM. He was hired to play Left Guard, Do It.

[SAUTO]

Good point, we don't have all the information and probably never will. That said I'm going to trust the guy that has been reported to be a leader, has always shown character and class, and was a finalist for NFL Man of the Year Award. Especially when you consider Haley's reputation for being an arrogant dick. Now we get Waters said and pretty much everything lines up. There's no reason not to believe that this is what happened.

Yeah, he makes a ton of money and has made a ton of money already. Why would he want to be a part of a team that doesn't care about him when he could retire right now and live out the rest of his life without having to worry about money?

i said this in another thread but here goes again:
IMO BW brought this on himself with the comments he made after herm was fired. you know the ones where he stated that whatever this team did good going forward would be due to the work herm put in. if you were haley wouldnt you be a little chapped at that? AND how in the hell would haley/pioli feel comfortable discussing our plans when he's already proven that he's a media snitch?

[chiefzilla1501]

The saddest thing here is that big bad team leader Brian Waters ran crying to Whitlock to get his story out. Say what you will about LJ, but you are never going to read from unnamed sources in the Star about how LJ wants out. You wont need to read it because you will see LJ standing out there front and center, saying it himself.

Just another example in the long line of guys who got pussified in the first half of this decade. Dante didnt get treated special anymore, so he wanted out. Trent wasnt going to be handed a starting job, so he wanted out. Tony didnt get to pick and choose how he got to break a record, so he hopped onto the bitch seat and pouted. Now Waters joins the club, hiding behind Whitlock instead of being his own man.

Some of these guys are good players, but they sure as shit arent leaders.

For crying out loud, this story came FROM A SOURCE. And Whitlock later said that Waters could not be reached for comment.

I don't know where this rumor went around. As I said before, if Whitlock is lying about the second part, then he is committing a major breach of journalistic ethics. Much as you may hate Whitlock, he is a professional and knows how the game is played.

[chiefzilla1501]

i said this in another thread but here goes again:
IMO BW brought this on himself with the comments he made after herm was fired. you know the ones where he stated that whatever this team did good going forward would be due to the work herm put in. if you were haley wouldnt you be a little chapped at that? AND how in the hell would haley/pioli feel comfortable discussing our plans when he's already proven that he's a media snitch?

When are people going to realize that most players will defend a coach that is out the door, especially one popular to the players. As a leader, he is expected to comment about the situation. It just so happens that people hated Herm Edwards so much that they also hate anyone who supports him.

The stuff THigpen and Waters said about Herm on Herm's way out is not much different from what most players say about their coach on the way out. Let's stop treating it as if what they said was so awful or so different.

[chiefzilla1501]

Then go, GTFO! He wasnt hired as Head Coach or GM. He was hired to play Left Guard, Do It.

And Haley was hired to be the guy most involved with player relations. Shouldn't we be measuring him up too? I like Haley, but the player management side scares me. I'm not going to pass judgment on either Waters or Haley, because we don't know the full story. But that doesn't mean that Waters should be branded for this story and that Haley gets a free pass.

But to the second point, he was hired to play left guard, but that hasn't stopped him from being a visible influence on his other teammates. Go ask Branden Albert if he thinks Waters is important.

People obviously don't understand the role of leaders. Every team must have players that are leaders. Waters didn't lead in this situation, but in the locker room, he has consistently been a solid leader. And we saw what happened when LJ lost his leader T-Rich--he spiraled out of control! T-Rich would have never let that happen. So let's stop this ridiculous stance that anybody on this team is expendable. The team needs to try to get Waters to jump on board to the new direction. Trading or releasing a player because he didn't agree with your direction is a cop-out.

[chiefforlife]

And Haley was hired to be the guy most involved with player relations. Shouldn't we be measuring him up too? I like Haley, but the player management side scares me. I'm not going to pass judgment on either Waters or Haley, because we don't know the full story. But that doesn't mean that Waters should be branded for this story and that Haley gets a free pass.

But to the second point, he was hired to play left guard, but that hasn't stopped him from being a visible influence on his other teammates. Go ask Branden Albert if he thinks Waters is important.

People obviously don't understand the role of leaders. Every team must have players that are leaders. Waters didn't lead in this situation, but in the locker room, he has consistently been a solid leader. And we saw what happened when LJ lost his leader T-Rich--he spiraled out of control! T-Rich would have never let that happen. So let's stop this ridiculous stance that anybody on this team is expendable. The team needs to try to get Waters to jump on board to the new direction. Trading or releasing a player because he didn't agree with your direction is a cop-out.

Players who dont believe in the new direction are released or traded. What league do you watch?

[FAX]

All isn't lost, peeps. Maybe after all this cools down, they'll kiss and make up.

Or, maybe Pioli and Haley can find another left guard - at least somebody temporary to bridge over troubled Waters.

FAX

[FAX]

First off you really don't know how anyone was treated, as we only have half the story ...

It is murky, Mr. smittysbar. Somebody needs to pick up the phone, talk to B-Dub, and ask him to clear thing up ... you know, tell him things are a little muddy Waters.

FAX

[The Bad Guy]

All of you tards defending Waters can hit the fucking road when he does.

[chiefzilla1501]

Players who dont believe in the new direction are released or traded. What league do you watch?

Yeah, because every player (particularly pro bowlers) who disagree with a team's direction are traded less than one month after a coach is hired.

It's a cop-out. Waters is a good player and he's never been a character issue. If you have to trade him without at least trying to make him agree with the new direction, then you are copping out.

Waters has always been a solid team player. He will agree with the direction in time. What he did here was a little selfish, but it's just comical how one little situation makes a guy expendable to many of you guys. As if any of our players are perfect.

[Red Beans]

I am absolutely appalled at the responses I'm seeing to what happened here. Bryan Waters is one of the few real leaders on this team and the only Pro Bowl lineman. Maybe he should have made an appointment to come see the Pioli or Haley but maybe he's never had to before and didn't think anything of it. He wasn't being arrogant but thought he was doing the right thing. Not to mention the fact that he was doing the right thing. He had heard bad things about his new coach and wanted to find out the truth. This is the right way to do things. He went straight to the horses mouth (Haley) and got a horses ass instead.

This was handled so poorly by Haley and Pioli that it's frankly sad. The message that they sent (intentional or unintentional) is that leadership and character are not good qualities for Chiefs players. Regardless of what that hack Gretz says, no logically thinking person would expect Waters to turn from this situation and start spreading the word that things have changed. *BTW - everyone that has said that this is the first time that you actually agree with Gretz, this in and of itself should be a big clue to you that you are on the wrong side of this. * The very best outcome of this situation is that Waters spreads the word that everything that has been seen and said about Haley is true. Then you end up with a whole team full of guys that resent their head coach before a single snap is played. Doesn't that sound freaking wonderful.

What should have happened is that Piolo tells Waters that he does NOT have an open door policy and that he would be glad to talk to him with an appointment, not this BS about how he's not interested in talking to him. There's a really big difference between setting a tone and just flat out being a prick. As far as what Haley said, it was way out of line. He basically just told his best linemen that they don't need. Now he gets to find out whether or not that's true.

Think about it this way. If you were concerned about the direction of your company right now and went to your boss' boss and was told he wasn't interested in talking to you about the new guy he just hired, then went to the new guy and he told you that a retarded monkey could do your job, so you should just be happy to have one. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed? Personally if it were me I'd be looking for a new job right away, wouldn't you?

It's so sad that a guy making 3.6 mil this year can't talk to his boss. Give me a fucking break. Do you think I can just drive three hours to where the director of our agency is and barge into his office to talk about my future? No I can't and I'd most likely get fired for doing so. It's fucking rude. I'm appalled that anyone could think that kind of behavior is ok. The bottom line? The boss is busy and Waters is under contract. Holy shit, this is how the real world works, you don't get to make up your own rules.This is about developing a new culture here in KC and that is exactly what we need.

[SAUTO]

When are people going to realize that most players will defend a coach that is out the door, especially one popular to the players. As a leader, he is expected to comment about the situation. It just so happens that people hated Herm Edwards so much that they also hate anyone who supports him.

The stuff THigpen and Waters said about Herm on Herm's way out is not much different from what most players say about their coach on the way out. Let's stop treating it as if what they said was so awful or so different.

stroking the coach going out the door's ego should be the LAST thing waters was thinking about. he should have been worried about making the new coach feel comfortable. he basically said that he feels as if this team is turned into a winner then herm is to blame, when in reality the losing was because of herm

[nychief]

Dood... our team is joke... Pioli and Haley are sweeping away the loser mentality that has been the hallmark of one arrowhead drive. Waters wants his hand held? He wants to be in on decisions? Give me a break. Do you think Parcells would have had a face to face with an Guard, just to get his two cents? Waters isn't even dominant, he is all reputation... Shut up and block. I am so sick of the fucking cry babies on this football team... They'd be happier going 2-14 every fucking year and having their hands held all the time - then acting like a football player and following instructions.

[chiefforlife]

Yeah, because every player (particularly pro bowlers) who disagree with a team's direction are traded less than one month after a coach is hired.

It's a cop-out. Waters is a good player and he's never been a character issue. If you have to trade him without at least trying to make him agree with the new direction, then you are copping out.

Waters has always been a solid team player. He will agree with the direction in time. What he did here was a little selfish, but it's just comical how one little situation makes a guy expendable to many of you guys. As if any of our players are perfect.

I would love to keep Waters. He demanded a trade or release, how is that a cop out by the team. Its a cop out by Waters.
I am sure Haley and Pioli will get around to talking with all the players in time. I doubt Waters was a player they thought they would have to deal with in this manner.
You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Right now it appears that he is part of the problem. I certainly hope he becomes part of the solution.

[ChiefaRoo]

Memo:

Brian, see you in mini-camp. Be ready to line up and knock the Def. Lineman across from you on his ass.

I trust this covers all of the issues that need to be discussed.

Sincerely,

KC Management

[SAUTO]

I would love to keep Waters. He demanded a trade or release, how is that a cop out by the team. Its a cop out by Waters.
I am sure Haley and Pioli will get around to talking with all the players in time. I doubt Waters was a player they thought they would have to deal with in this manner.
You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Right now it appears that he is part of the problem. I certainly hope he becomes part of the solution.

he would be kicking rocks if that was bill belichek IMO

[brain1081]

It's so sad that a guy making 3.6 mil this year can't talk to his boss. Give me a ****ing break. Do you think I can just drive three hours to where the director of our agency is and barge into his office to talk about my future? No I can't and I'd most likely get fired for doing so. It's ****ing rude. I'm appalled that anyone could think that kind of behavior is ok. The bottom line? The boss is busy and Waters is under contract. Holy shit, this is how the real world works, you don't get to make up your own rules.This is about developing a new culture here in KC and that is exactly what we need.

He didn't just barge in. He did the exact same thing that he has done hundreds of times before. For Christ's sake the man went to his place of employment. He should have been welcome with open arms in that building. He had every right to do what he did. I pity everyone on this board that can't talk to your boss...must suck.

[chiefforlife]

He didn't just barge in. He did the exact same thing that he has done hundreds of times before. For Christ's sake the man went to his place of employment. He should have been welcome with open arms in that building. He had every right to do what he did. I pity everyone on this board that can't talk to your boss...must suck.

Every employee knows there is a time and a place to talk.
Every employee knows the BOSS gets to pick the time and place.

[SAUTO]

He didn't just barge in. He did the exact same thing that he has done hundreds of times before. For Christ's sake the man went to his place of employment. He should have been welcome with open arms in that building. He had every right to do what he did. I pity everyone on this board that can't talk to your boss...must suck.

he came in with NO warning on one of the biggest days of the year and didnt actually ask to talk to his immediate superior(oline coach) about work(his job) but about their job, and how they were going to handle it. try going past supervisors and ask the owner of the company when he's working on a merger to hang up the phone and lets talk about what youre doing and see how that works out for you

[MVChiefFan]

He didn't just barge in. He did the exact same thing that he has done hundreds of times before. For Christ's sake the man went to his place of employment. He should have been welcome with open arms in that building. He had every right to do what he did. I pity everyone on this board that can't talk to your boss...must suck.

I can talk to my boss about anything at anytime, but then again, I've been his right hand man for the past five years. If I were to have a new boss, I wouldn't feel comfortable just strolling in asking him what his intentions with the company are. And, how do you know he didn't just "barge in". Were you there? None of us know what happened but I'll tell ya this, no one is bigger than the "team" and I'm getting sick of these guys gettin' their poor-little-look-at-me-I'm-a-starter-on-a-2-14-team feelings hurt for not being coddled.

[htismaqe]

He didn't just barge in. He did the exact same thing that he has done hundreds of times before. For Christ's sake the man went to his place of employment. He should have been welcome with open arms in that building. He had every right to do what he did. I pity everyone on this board that can't talk to your boss...must suck.

I can talk to my boss whenever I want, as long as I let him know 15-20 minutes before hand.

It's called PROFESSIONAL COURTESY and apparently Brian Waters thinks himself good enough that he doesn't have to have it.

[SAUTO]

I can talk to my boss whenever I want, as long as I let him know 15-20 minutes before hand.

It's called PROFESSIONAL COURTESY and apparently Brian Waters thinks himself good enough that he doesn't have to have it.

and to then try to go over pioli/haley's heads with a call to clark?? who does he think he is?

[nychief]

I think that what Waters did was the arrogant gesture.... Flying to KC unannounced and expecting a sit down with boss on the day before Free agency starts, so that you can get a run down on the off season plans?

they don't have anything better to do?

What if they they had sat down with him and he didn't like what he heard?

This whole thing pisses me off to no end.

[MVChiefFan]

and to then try to go over pioli/haley's heads with a call to clark?? who does he think he is?

EXACTLY! I was amazed at this story but when I heard he then started trying to call Clark I got REALLY embarrassed for him.

[SAUTO]

I think that what Waters did was the arrogant gesture.... Flying to KC unannounced and expecting a sit down with boss on the day before Free agency starts, so that you can get a run down on the off season plans?

they don't have anything better to do?

What if they they had sat down with him and he didn't like what he heard?

This whole thing pisses me off to no end.

once again: what if they had sat him down and told him their plans? could they have trusted him not to run right out and tell someone in the meda? he's already proven that he likes to talk

[Tiger's Fan]

When are people going to realize that most players will defend a coach that is out the door, especially one popular to the players. As a leader, he is expected to comment about the situation. It just so happens that people hated Herm Edwards so much that they also hate anyone who supports him.

The stuff THigpen and Waters said about Herm on Herm's way out is not much different from what most players say about their coach on the way out. Let's stop treating it as if what they said was so awful or so different.

Defending a coach that was/is as bad as Herm is indefensable. This is directed at you as much as Brian Waters.

[SAUTO]

EXACTLY! I was amazed at this story but when I heard he then started trying to call Clark I got REALLY embarassed for him.

and clark not taking the callROFL shows that he trusts what pioli is doing fully

[MVChiefFan]

and clark not taking the callROFL shows that he trusts what pioli is doing fully

ROFL I know, I couldn't help say "ouch" when I heard he wouldn't talk to him.LOL

[smittysbar]

Defending a coach that was/is as bad as Herm is indefensable. This is directed at you as much as Brian Waters.


Rep :D

[Red Beans]

He didn't just barge in. He did the exact same thing that he has done hundreds of times before. For Christ's sake the man went to his place of employment. He should have been welcome with open arms in that building. He had every right to do what he did. I pity everyone on this board that can't talk to your boss...must suck.

I'm not talking about my office supervisor, I'm talking about the director of a state agency. The face of a franchise so to speak. Pioli is the freaking head of the Chiefs organization. I agree with a previous post, go talk to your o-line coach. There's a heirarchy that runs through all businesses, all places of employment. Brian Waters needs to get his head straight about how the world works and how the new Chiefs operate and so do you.

[Red Beans]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:he came in with NO warning on one of the biggest days of the year and didnt actually ask to talk to his immediate superior(oline coach) about work(his job) but about their job, and how they were going to handle it. try going past supervisors and ask the owner of the company when he's working on a merger to hang up the phone and lets talk about what youre doing and see how that works out for you

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm not talking about my office supervisor, I'm talking about the director of a state agency. The face of a franchise so to speak. Pioli is the freaking head of the Chiefs organization. I agree with a previous post, go talk to your o-line coach. There's a heirarchy that runs through all businesses, all places of employment. Brian Waters needs to get his head straight about how the world works and how the new Chiefs operate and so do you.

That doesn't necessarily apply in this case.

If I went to my CEO, nobody would listen to me. If a salesperson that every year won "Salesman of the Year" awards went in, then you bet your ass the leaders would drop what they were doing to talk. Waters isn't just any other worker. He is one of the top in the Chiefs' current work force.

I know it was bad timing on Waters' part. But that doesn't mean that Pioli/Haley were completely in the right. We don't know the full story, but there's at least reason to question whether the management handled the situation correctly. I trust that in the end, they're smart enough to deal with Waters appropriately and I'll give Haley the benefit of the doubt to do it. But for a new coach with a reputation of being a hot-head, this at least has to raise a little bit of concern.

[Red Beans]

That doesn't necessarily apply in this case.

If I went to my CEO, nobody would listen to me. If a salesperson that every year won "Salesman of the Year" awards went in, then you bet your ass the leaders would drop what they were doing to talk. Waters isn't just any other worker. He is one of the top in the Chiefs' current work force.

I know it was bad timing on Waters' part. But that doesn't mean that Pioli/Haley were completely in the right. We don't know the full story, but there's at least reason to question whether the management handled the situation correctly. I trust that in the end, they're smart enough to deal with Waters appropriately and I'll give Haley the benefit of the doubt to do it. But for a new coach with a reputation of being a hot-head, this at least has to raise a little bit of concern.

it doesn't necessarily but it could. You're right, we don't know the details but what we do know is exactly who is running the show here. That's something we haven't had in the past.

[brain1081]

I can talk to my boss about anything at anytime, but then again, I've been his right hand man for the past five years. If I were to have a new boss, I wouldn't feel comfortable just strolling in asking him what his intentions with the company are. And, how do you know he didn't just "barge in". Were you there? None of us know what happened but I'll tell ya this, no one is bigger than the "team" and I'm getting sick of these guys gettin' their poor-little-look-at-me-I'm-a-starter-on-a-2-14-team feelings hurt for not being coddled.

I'm tired of these spoiled rich GMs and Coaches walking into this city like they have actually done something for us just by taking the job. These guys are treating one of their best players like crap and there's no reason for it. Waters didn't do everything right (although, I still contend that if there was an open door policy the entire time he's been here, how is he supposed to know that there isn't one now) but this situation could have been avoided completely by just using common manners on the head coaches and GMs part. If this was a calculated move then I think there was a better way to do it without disrespecting Waters and getting the point across to the team. If it was an accident, then this is probably going to be a short ride with these guys.

[Red Beans]

I'm tired of these spoiled rich GMs and Coaches walking into this city like they have actually done something for us just by taking the job. These guys are treating one of their best players like crap and there's no reason for it. Waters didn't do everything right (although, I still contend that if there was an open door policy the entire time he's been here, how is he supposed to know that there isn't one now) but this situation could have been avoided completely by just using common manners on the head coaches and GMs part. If this was a calculated move then I think there was a better way to do it without disrespecting Waters and getting the point across to the team. If it was an accident, then this is probably going to be a short ride with these guys.

I didn't know Brian Waters posted here. Either that or you can type while you fellatiate him. That is what I call skill. I'm tired of spoiled players who act like cry baby vaginas after I paid to watch my team go 2 and 14.

[Duck Dog]

He didn't just barge in. He did the exact same thing that he has done hundreds of times before. For Christ's sake the man went to his place of employment. He should have been welcome with open arms in that building. He had every right to do what he did. I pity everyone on this board that can't talk to your boss...must suck.

There are protocols to follow and he broke every single one. He had no right to do what he did the way he did it.

[eazyb81]

It's apparent Gretz took his own advice by realizing this is a "Brave New World" and it's time to quit or actually start writing intelligent and thought-provoking articles.

Apparently he chose the latter and is hopping on board the Pioli bandwagon. Good decision.

[brain1081]

There are protocols to follow and he broke every single one. He had no right to do what he did the way he did it.

For as much shit as I'm getting for only listening to one side of the story, I have to ask this. If there were new protocols how was he supposed to know what they were? Was something sent to all the players? "Do not come to Arrowhead without an appointment. We are very busy with the up coming off season. Thank you.". No one knows. Again, how is he supposed to know that there is no longer an open door policy if no one tells him? Sure he may have made a mistake by going to Pioli first, and a really big one by trying to call Clark. But lack of common courtesy on the teams part is really disappointing. Once again, they're either a-holes or stupid. Either way, I look on this as a bad thing.

[htismaqe]

That doesn't necessarily apply in this case.

If I went to my CEO, nobody would listen to me. If a salesperson that every year won "Salesman of the Year" awards went in, then you bet your ass the leaders would drop what they were doing to talk. Waters isn't just any other worker. He is one of the top in the Chiefs' current work force.

I know it was bad timing on Waters' part. But that doesn't mean that Pioli/Haley were completely in the right. We don't know the full story, but there's at least reason to question whether the management handled the situation correctly. I trust that in the end, they're smart enough to deal with Waters appropriately and I'll give Haley the benefit of the doubt to do it. But for a new coach with a reputation of being a hot-head, this at least has to raise a little bit of concern.

If your "Salesman of the Year" was the top saleman in a workforce that was 12.5% to plan last year (ie. 2-14), there's a better than good possibility the new management won't give two shits that he was good or not.

[htismaqe]

We are very busy with the up coming off season. Thank you.

EVERYBODY knows this, EVEN Brian Waters.

[brain1081]

EVERYBODY knows this, EVEN Brian Waters.

In light of the Cassel trade...I'm backing off on this a little. I still thing they could have handled it better but I'm way too excited now to continue on with the ripping of the front office :)
Hopefully this tells Waters everything that he needs to know about the future of this franchise.