Pete Prisco: Cutler or Cassel? Not close call, seriously

[Quesadilla Joe]

Cutler or Cassel? Not close call, seriously
March 2, 2009
By Pete Prisco
CBSSports.com Senior Writer


Even though it's hard to picture, especially considering his close-to-the-vest ways, Mike Shanahan is somewhere today probably laughing his ass off. The punch line: The Denver Broncos talked about trading Jay Cutler. Shanahan was fired as the coach of the Broncos after the 2008 season, replaced by Josh McDaniels, who came over from the New England Patriots.

Shanahan's undoing wasn't his coaching, but rather his personnel decisions. None of the bad ones he made -- and there were plenty -- could have topped the one the Broncos almost made over the weekend.

How could they have actually considered trading Cutler?

Their target was reportedly Matt Cassel, who played for McDaniels in New England.

Did I miss the memo that stated one season makes an NFL star? What is all the fuss about Matt Cassel? I'm not saying he can't be an effective NFL quarterback, or a top-15 passer. But the talk that the Broncos were willing to trade away Jay Cutler in a three-way deal to get Cassel is just stupid.

Cutler or Cassel?

Please.

Last summer, Cassel was just hoping to make the New England roster, nearly being cut in favor of Matt Gutierrez. Now he's being talked in the same breath with Jay Cutler.

Has anybody really studied the two?

Cutler has a rocket. Cassel does not.

Cutler was a first-round pick for a reason. Cassel didn't even start at USC.

Yet the word got out Saturday that the Broncos were willing to part with Cutler to get Cassel. They would have worked a three-way deal to get Cassel with Tampa Bay. Instead, the Patriots traded Cassel to the Chiefs, along with linebacker Mike Vrabel, for a second-round pick.

Josh McDaniels got a mulligan. He should be thankful.

Cutler has started 37 games in his career, completing 62.5 percent of his passes. Last season he threw for 4,526 yards with 25 touchdown passes and 18 interceptions. He improved greatly last season in his second full one as a starter.


Cassel did well in his 15 starts for the Patriots last year, but anybody who followed him closely knows he's not the same type of talent as Cutler.

Why do you think he was almost cut?

Bill Belichick is arguably the best football mind in the business. Do you think he'd let a legitimate franchise passer go because of one bad summer of football?

Do you think he really would get fleeced by doing a favor for Scott Pioli by trading Cassel to the Chiefs?

Belichick wouldn't do a favor for his own family.

The Broncos are now putting it out that Cutler wasn't their only player that they talked about in trade talks.

That's called spin.

Coaches love their own guys, almost to a fault sometimes. There's comfort. They know the system. They know what to expect every day, in practice and in meetings.

That's why McDaniels wanted Cassel.

He was one of his guys. They probably got close in all those meeting rooms. Can't you see it? They were two young guys trying to make their way underneath the glare of the stars above them, Belichick and Tom Brady.

A relationship had to form. That's natural.

But to think that Cutler couldn't be that same kind of guy is naïve on the part of McDaniels. Cutler was good enough to play for Shanahan. The relationship between Cutler and the new staff will be fixed. He'll realize it's business.

But the foolishness of trying to trade him will linger for some time.

So go ahead and laugh, Shanny. The punch line is way too funny: Trade Jay Cutler to get Matt Cassel.

You don't get jokes much more laughable than that from those late-night talking heads.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11448668

Poll
Who would you rather have at QB?
73% Jay Cutler
27% Matt Cassel
Total Votes: 17668
:evil:

[htismaqe]

Cutler has a rocket. Cassel does not.

Jeff George had a rocket too.

[|Zach|]

I don't have much a problem with Cutler in Denver. It will be fun watching teams get in his head and get him off his game for another year.

Hell, Denver split the series last year with one of our worst team's in franchise history. Hilarity.

[Spicy McHaggis]

I don't think anyone can deny that Cutler has more physical talent than Cassel.

That said, your coach obviously thought he had a better chance to win with Cassel which either says a) your coach is a moron or b) your coach isn't a moron and Cassel > Cutler.

Let me know which it is.

[Quesadilla Joe]

your coach is a moron


This.

[|Zach|]

Heh, the Broncos want our QB.

[Frazod]

I'm happy to have the one who isn't a whiny diabetic douche.

[Spicy McHaggis]

This.

:D heh,

alright you're not so bad for a broncos fan

[SDChief]

I'm happy to have the one who isn't a whiny diabetic douche.

ROFL

[keg in kc]

I think Cutler's missing something upstairs.

[Skyy God]

Re to the post.

[buddha]

Cutler is on the verge of being a superstar in this league if the stupid donkeys can put some more talent around him. Cutler does have a Jeff George arm, but is a much better QB...without a doubt.

Cassel doesn't have the arm, but he's more than capable.

[Brock]

Cutler is woefully lacking in leadership skills.

[htismaqe]

Cutler is on the verge of being a superstar in this league if the stupid donkeys can put some more talent around him. Cutler does have a Jeff George arm, but is a much better QB...without a doubt.

Cassel doesn't have the arm, but he's more than capable.

See this:

I think Cutler's missing something upstairs.

[RINGLEADER]

Everyone points to Cutler's skills but seem to forget he's got one of the best WR tandems in football and, more importantly, that he's never had a winning season.

Say what you want about Cassel but he did it in his first season. Also, Cassel got progressively better as the season wore on (really having only one bad game -- against the Steelers -- during that time) and Cutler, again, fell flat.

Last 11 games of 2008:

Cassel 8-3, Cutler 4-7
Cassel 321 points, Cutler 221 points

Statistically speaking the only area where Cutler really blows Cassel away was in 4th quarter Passer Rating (around 95 to 75 for Cassel).

[Micjones]

Cutler's good, but let's not get crazy here.
I wouldn't argue that he's inferior to Cassel.
He's logged more time in the NFL and is a proven commodity at this point.

He's no John Elway though. Let's end that discussion right now.

[bluehawkdoc]

Cutler is woefully lacking in leadership skills.

You mean to tell me that grown men who are elite athletes in a physically grueling sport wouldn't want to go to war with a whiny little crybaby like Cutler? Color me shocked.

[alpha_omega]

I am surprised...17 posts in to this thread and nobody has insulted Prisco....so, let me be the first....

Pricksco!

[htismaqe]

Cutler's good, but let's not get crazy here.
I wouldn't argue that he's inferior to Cassel.
He's logged more time in the NFL and is a proven commodity at this point.

He's no John Elway though. Let's end that discussion right now.

The ONLY reason that I would argue that Cutler is inferior to Cassel is because I think Cassel still has the potential to be "that" kind of QB, the one that has the moxy to win it all.

I don't think Cutler will ever be that. He's got a million-dollar arm, but he just doesn't have the mental makeup to be "special".

[58kcfan89]

The longer this Cutler thing drags out, the happier I get. It's getting more & more obvious that Cutler is indeed missing something upstairs, or at least lacks the leadership quality you'd like to have at the QB spot.

[Micjones]

The ONLY reason that I would argue that Cutler is inferior to Cassel is because I think Cassel still has the potential to be "that" kind of QB, the one that has the moxy to win it all.

I don't think Cutler will ever be that. He's got a million-dollar arm, but he just doesn't have the mental makeup to be "special".

Cassel still has something to prove so I'm not ready to even draw a comparison between the two. And that's coming from one of the people who's happy he'll be the Chiefs new QB.

Cutler's a good NFL QB. I take nothing away from the kid.
I just don't think he's proven yet that he's special.

[1ChiefsDan]

I think Cutler's missing something upstairs.

Cutler is woefully lacking in leadership skills.These

[Hootie]

This Cutler kid that posts on here doesn't realize we don't give a shit...his own coach wanted Cassel over Cutler...not us.

[htismaqe]

Cassel still has something to prove so I'm not ready to even draw a comparison between the two. And that's coming from one of the people who's happy he'll be the Chiefs new QB.

Cutler's a good NFL QB. I take nothing away from the kid.
I just don't think he's proven yet that he's special.

Hence why I said I'd only rate Cassel above Cutler in potential.

Cutler is the superior QB in just about every way - at this point in time.

[Pitt Gorilla]

He gave Cutler's stats but not Cassell's? Why would he do that?

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Cutler was a first-round pick for a reason. Cassel didn't even start at USC.

how is this relevant in the NFL in 2009?

[MagicHef]

The longer this Cutler thing drags out, the happier I get. It's getting more & more obvious that Cutler is indeed missing something upstairs, or at least lacks the leadership quality you'd like to have at the QB spot.

What exactly is dragging out? Nothing has happened with this story since the news came out that Cutler and McDaniels are meeting on Monday. This article is 3 days old.

[Titty Meat]

Why does everyone say Matt Cassel doesn't have an arm?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlyI3GA5X8A


Not alot of QB's would make that play.

[jAZ]

Cutler or Cassel? Not close call, seriously
March 2, 2009
By Pete Prisco
CBSSports.com Senior Writer


...

How could they have actually considered trading Cutler?

Their target was reportedly Matt Cassel, who played for McDaniels in New England.

Did I miss the memo that stated one season makes an NFL star? What is all the fuss about Matt Cassel? I'm not saying he can't be an effective NFL quarterback, or a top-15 passer. But the talk that the Broncos were willing to trade away Jay Cutler in a three-way deal to get Cassel is just stupid.

Cutler or Cassel?

Please.

...

Has anybody really studied the two?

Cutler has a rocket. Cassel does not.

Cutler was a first-round pick for a reason. Cassel didn't even start at USC.

Yet the word got out Saturday that the Broncos were willing to part with Cutler to get Cassel.

...

But to think that Cutler couldn't be that same kind of guy is naïve on the part of McDaniels. Cutler was good enough to play for Shanahan. The relationship between Cutler and the new staff will be fixed. He'll realize it's business.

Ummm... someone doesn't understand much about the Patriot Way...

It's the "ability to build a team, not simply collecting individual talent."

I would take Cutler over Cassel too, but then again, I have no idea how to "bulid a team". And I suspect neither does Pete.

[FringeNC]

It seems everyone thinks Cutler is better than Cassel -- except the NE guys, who, you know, have the most firsthand knowledge of Cassel. Either Pioli and McDaniels are right in their view that Cassel is a star quarterback, or they are not, and most likely Pioli's success or lack thereof in KC depends on his bet on Cassel. Pioli's goal is not to go 9-7.

In a weird way KC and Denver's future are a little linked -- if McDaniels is competent, Denver will be good, but KC most likely has a star QB.

[htismaqe]

It seems everyone thinks Cutler is better than Cassel -- except the NE guys, who, you know, have the most firsthand knowledge of Cassel. Either Pioli and McDaniels are right in their view that Cassel is a star quarterback, or they are not, and most likely Pioli's success or lack thereof in KC depends on his bet on Cassel. Pioli's goal is not to go 9-7.

In a weird way KC and Denver's future are a little linked -- if McDaniels is competent, Denver will be good, but KC most likely has a star QB.

I already suggested that, and it wasn't a popular opinion.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=203376

[DaFace]

Not that this is anything that hasn't already been said already, but Cutler's issue isn't his physical abilities. It's that he's a bit of a head case. I have my doubts that he'll ever be an elite QB in the league purely because of that. He's just not a good leader.

[htismaqe]

Not that this is anything that hasn't already been said already, but Cutler's issue isn't his physical abilities. It's that he's a bit of a head case. I have my doubts that he'll ever be an elite QB in the league purely because of that. He's just not a good leader.

Bingo.

[FringeNC]

I already suggested that, and it wasn't a popular opinion.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=203376

I think it's a far riskier move for Pioli's reputation to go after Cassel than draft Stafford or Sanchez. If the draftees don't pan out, there is always the transition excuse. Given that Pioli didn't go that route, he must feel very strongly about Cassel. He just bet a substantial amount of his reputation on Cassel and has no easy excuse if Cassel isn't a top QB.

[Reerun_KC]

I think it's a far riskier move for Pioli's reputation to go after Cassel than draft Stafford or Sanchez. If the draftees don't pan out, there is always the transition excuse. Given that Pioli didn't go that route, he must feel very strongly about Cassel. He just bet a substantial amount of his reputation on Cassel and has no easy excuse if Cassel isn't a top QB.

IF Cassel isnt top 5 QB next year, it will be a major disappointment... Seeing how he elevated the game in NE, I expect him to bring the Chiefs to the forefront again...

[htismaqe]

I think it's a far riskier move for Pioli's reputation to go after Cassel than draft Stafford or Sanchez. If the draftees don't pan out, there is always the transition excuse. Given that Pioli didn't go that route, he must feel very strongly about Cassel. He just bet a substantial amount of his reputation on Cassel and has no easy excuse if Cassel isn't a top QB.

I think it's fair to say that the expectation of the fans (as evidenced by Reerun's post right after years) will be higher for Cassel than for a drafted QB, especially in the first two years.

That being said, even if Pioli had drafted Sanchez or Stafford, he'd still likely sink or swim with them because of the confluence of time. GM's just don't get alot of time to succeed anymore. The entirety of professional sports leans towards "win now".

[redngold85]

I'm happy to have the one who isn't a whiny diabetic douche.

this!!!!!!

[Mile High Mania]

Everyone points to Cutler's skills but seem to forget he's got one of the best WR tandems in football and, more importantly, that he's never had a winning season.

Say what you want about Cassel but he did it in his first season. Also, Cassel got progressively better as the season wore on (really having only one bad game -- against the Steelers -- during that time) and Cutler, again, fell flat.

Last 11 games of 2008:

Cassel 8-3, Cutler 4-7
Cassel 321 points, Cutler 221 points

Statistically speaking the only area where Cutler really blows Cassel away was in 4th quarter Passer Rating (around 95 to 75 for Cassel).

Cassell had the likes of Moss and Welker... and a better defense.

But, dump it all on Cutler falling apart if you like. During those final 11 games that you reference, Cutler had 425 attempts with 6 games over 40 attempts. Cassel had 376 attempts and only 3 games over 40.

When your defense sucks, you're starting a new RB every week thanks to injury and you're QB is forced to throw more than 40 passes per game in the majority of your games... the losses, INTs, etc will be high.

Don't worry though, the KC environment is not like what he had in NE... so while KC should be improved over 2008, you'll see what a difference the system makes for Cassel in 2009.

[Mile High Mania]

IF Cassel isnt top 5 QB next year, it will be a major disappointment... Seeing how he elevated the game in NE, I expect him to bring the Chiefs to the forefront again...

Define Top 5.

In 2008, with that offense... he wasn't top 5 in yards, rating, TDs...

[Reerun_KC]

I think it's fair to say that the expectation of the fans (as evidenced by Reerun's post right after years) will be higher for Cassel than for a drafted QB, especially in the first two years.

That being said, even if Pioli had drafted Sanchez or Stafford, he'd still likely sink or swim with them because of the confluence of time. GM's just don't get alot of time to succeed anymore. The entirety of professional sports leans towards "win now".

I would have alot of patience for a drafted QB, especially Sanchez or Stafford, but when it comes to a QB like Cassel...

Its win now and you better put up some serious numbers while doing it.... Cassel did well with talent in NE, I expect him to come in here and put up some serious numbers while elevating everyones play around them. He proved with All world talent and coaching he can play at a high level.

[Reerun_KC]

Define Top 5.

In 2008, with that offense... he wasn't top 5 in yards, rating, TDs...

We are investing him to be the QB of this team... He needs to come in here and lead this franchise, with his play on the field and his ability to elevate others around him.

[Mile High Mania]

Everyone points to Cutler's skills but seem to forget he's got one of the best WR tandems in football and, more importantly, that he's never had a winning season.

Say what you want about Cassel but he did it in his first season. Also, Cassel got progressively better as the season wore on (really having only one bad game -- against the Steelers -- during that time) and Cutler, again, fell flat.

Last 11 games of 2008:

Cassel 8-3, Cutler 4-7
Cassel 321 points, Cutler 221 points

Statistically speaking the only area where Cutler really blows Cassel away was in 4th quarter Passer Rating (around 95 to 75 for Cassel).

Cassell had the likes of Moss and Welker... and a better defense.

But, dump it all on Cutler falling apart if you like. During those final 11 games that you reference, Cutler had 425 attempts with 6 games over 40 attempts. Cassel had 376 attempts and only 3 games over 40.

When your defense sucks, you're starting a new RB every week thanks to injury and you're QB is forced to throw more than 40 passes per game in the majority of your games... the losses, INTs, etc will be high.

Don't worry though, the KC environment is not like what he had in NE... so while KC should be improved over 2008, you'll see what a difference the system makes for Cassel in 2009.

It should be noted that during those final 11 games...

NE defense gave up 200 points or 18.1 average per game (4 over 24 pts)
DEN defense gave up 318 points or 28.9 average per game (8 over 24 pts)

Deny it if you like, but this doesn't help a QB's stats or W/L record.

[Mile High Mania]

We are investing him to be the QB of this team... He needs to come in here and lead this franchise, with his play on the field and his ability to elevate others around him.

That's the key... in 2008, he played well and that system and those veterans around him helped a great deal.

[rad]

IF Cassel isnt top 5 QB next year, it will be a major disappointment... Seeing how he elevated the game in NE, I expect him to bring the Chiefs to the forefront again...

That's just stupid.

[htismaqe]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Cassel to succeed right away. If he has a season 1 like Green did, it's going to be disappointing, no doubt about it.

[keg in kc]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Cassel to succeed right away. If he has a season 1 like Green did, it's going to be disappointing, no doubt about it.Depends on the right side of the line, I think. He has better receivers than Green ever had even if they don't add anyone else this offseason.

And these guys don't strike me as the type who'd go into the season without a decent line.

[Amnorix]

IF Cassel isnt top 5 QB next year, it will be a major disappointment... Seeing how he elevated the game in NE, I expect him to bring the Chiefs to the forefront again...


You're kidding? With NO offense around him at all, except TG and maybe Waters, you expect a top 5 performance or it's a "major disappointment"?

Wow.

[Pitt Gorilla]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Cassel to succeed right away. If he has a season 1 like Green did, it's going to be disappointing, no doubt about it.I disagree; I think Pioli and Cassel get a year to assemble more talent on O and to get familiar with that (hopefully) improving talent. If we had landed some combination of decent C, G, or T, I would expect more.

[Amnorix]

oh yeah, add to that that the whole team is learning a new offense under a new coaching staff.

Top 5 QB performance is an absurd expectation for 2009, IMHO.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

You're kidding? With NO offense around him at all, except TG and maybe Waters, you expect a top 5 performance or it's a "major disappointment"?

Wow.

Cmon, Bowe and Albert are pretty damn good players here and Tyler Thigpen was able to move the ball with these guys, so it's not like he has complete crap around him.....You are right though, Reerun's expectations are pretty unrealistic.

[htismaqe]

He better not perform worse than Thigpen. That's inexcusable.

[DaWolf]

Bill Belichick is arguably the best football mind in the business. Do you think he'd let a legitimate franchise passer go because of one bad summer of football?

This is funny. Belichick has become the Teflon Coach that Shanarat was. Yeah Prisco, do you think that if Belichick had any idea Tom Brady was going to be a hall of fame QB for him he would have waited until the sixth round to draft him and waited until Bledsoe got killed to start him? Give me a break. Belichick is not infallible, no one in football is. But Belichick knows what the football players he has have got, and he did not go out and sign anyone else out there when Brady went down, he just handed the job over to Cassel, just like he did with Brady...

[StcChief]

I'm happy to have the one who isn't a whiny diabetic douche.exactly. when he collapses on field or has to be taken out of a game.... cannon or not. Those wounded ducks, deer in headlights thing with him will catch up.

Not just McDaniel... there's something wrong with him. Mental.

[manchambo]

You mean to tell me that grown men who are elite athletes in a physically grueling sport wouldn't want to go to war with a whiny little crybaby like Cutler? Color me shocked.

It's demonstrably false that Cutler's teamates don't want to go to war with him. All reports were that his teamates were very upset by the trade talk.

[FringeNC]

oh yeah, add to that that the whole team is learning a new offense under a new coaching staff.

Top 5 QB performance is an absurd expectation for 2009, IMHO.

It'll be far easier to transition to the Chiefs than to come off the bench after zero playing time in a decade.

On a snippet on the NFL Network, Schefter claims all the NE coaches and players thinks this guy is one of the top 5-8 QBs in all of football and is going to be a big-time star. I haven't seen enough of him to know, but the NE folks are sold.

[Pioli Zombie]

Cutler was on my fantasy league team and in that capacity I love him

In real life if I want to win games I'll take Cassel.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Pasta Little Brioni]

He better not perform worse than Thigpen. That's inexcusable.

Agree completely. As long as Gonzo and Waters are kept, Cassel has players to work with. I don't think it is top 5 worthy talent, but the offense should be better next year. Hopefully, even get some O-line help somewhere in the draft outside of round 1 to help him out.

[htismaqe]

It'll be far easier to transition to the Chiefs than to come off the bench after zero playing time in a decade.

This.

He's gonna get a full offseason in starter's clothes for the first time since high school. Equalling or exceeding his performance from last year shouldn't be out of the question.

[MMXcalibur]

I agree that Cutler is a better QB than Cassel, but goddamn does Prisco act like a douchebag in saying it. Him and Skip Bayless are the two most annoyingly assholish commentators in the sports media.

[Amnorix]

It'll be far easier to transition to the Chiefs than to come off the bench after zero playing time in a decade.

On a snippet on the NFL Network, Schefter claims all the NE coaches and players thinks this guy is one of the top 5-8 QBs in all of football and is going to be a big-time star. I haven't seen enough of him to know, but the NE folks are sold.

You don't have to argue his qualities to me. I also think he'll be very good.

But look what you guys have:

1. new coaching staff.
2. unhappy RB.
3. highly questionable OLine
4. not a ton of talent at receiver positions other than TG.
5. new QB trying to figure out his coaches, the scheme, and the players around him.

IMHO it's just unrealisitic to expect a Pro Bowl season out of him in 2009. If you want to say 2010, then fine. But 2009?

I'm not saying it's completely impossible. But to EXPECT it, and have anythign less be a major disappointment? That seems a bit much.

[Amnorix]

This.

He's gonna get a full offseason in starter's clothes for the first time since high school. Equalling or exceeding his performance from last year shouldn't be out of the question.

Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Kevin Faulk
Solid OLine (second half of the season anyway)
system that he's been in for 4 years.
Players that he's been with for at least 2 years

-- these are all things that KC doesn't have. Cut him a little slack. Geez.

[Brock]

I don't believe he'll be statistically superior to Thigpen. This team is a heap of shit right now.

[MagicHef]

IF Cassel isnt top 5 QB next year, it will be a major disappointment... Seeing how he elevated the game in NE, I expect him to bring the Chiefs to the forefront again...

This.

He's gonna get a full offseason in starter's clothes for the first time since high school. Equalling or exceeding his performance from last year shouldn't be out of the question.

Posts like these make me excited. To read the reactions on here mid-season, that is.

[htismaqe]

Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Kevin Faulk
Solid OLine (second half of the season anyway)
system that he's been in for 4 years.
Players that he's been with for at least 2 years

-- these are all things that KC doesn't have. Cut him a little slack. Geez.

I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm getting at here.

He's going to have a couple of things here that he didn't have in New England - an offseason program as the starter and Tony Gonzales.

I'm not expecting him to have a Pro Bowl season. I am however suggesting that it's not unreasonable to expect him to be better than "average".

As to my personal expectations, I expect him to be better than Tyler Thigpen.

[htismaqe]

Posts like these make me excited. To read the reactions on here mid-season, that is.

You too are confusing what I have said are REASONABLE expectations for Cassel with what my PERSONAL expectation is for Cassel.

Please read what you quoted again and think carefully about what it says.

[KCrockaholic]

How stupid. Of course they will pick Cutler. I would pick Cutler (right now) also. Cutler has experience and has given time to prove hes a good QB. Cassel is a one year starter, and with another year under his belt could become better than Cutler. I dont know yet.

[KCrockaholic]

I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm getting at here.

He's going to have a couple of things here that he didn't have in New England - an offseason program as the starter and Tony Gonzales.

I'm not expecting him to have a Pro Bowl season. I am however suggesting that it's not unreasonable to expect him to be better than "average".

As to my personal expectations, I expect him to be better than Tyler Thigpen.


I agree with you here. I expect Cassel to leave the regular season with atleast a 90 QB rating. He also must play better than Thigpen for me to feel satisfied.

[keg in kc]

Cassel is a better quarterback than Thigpen, and he knows the offense they're implementing. So I don't think expecting better performance out of him than Thigpen is exactly out in left field. Doesn't mean he'll deliver.

[KCrockaholic]

You don't have to argue his qualities to me. I also think he'll be very good.

But look what you guys have:

1. new coaching staff.
2. unhappy RB.
3. highly questionable OLine
4. not a ton of talent at receiver positions other than TG, and Bowe
5. new QB trying to figure out his coaches, the scheme, and the players around him.

IMHO it's just unrealisitic to expect a Pro Bowl season out of him in 2009. If you want to say 2010, then fine. But 2009?

I'm not saying it's completely impossible. But to EXPECT it, and have anythign less be a major disappointment? That seems a bit much.

ok its fixed.

[MagicHef]

You too are confusing what I have said are REASONABLE expectations for Cassel with what my PERSONAL expectation is for Cassel.

Please read what you quoted again and think carefully about what it says.

Hey, I'm not holding you to anything here, I'm just looking forward to seeing what everyone says about Cassel mid-season. On a side note, are you saying that your personal expectations are unreasonable?

[Quesadilla Joe]

Cutler was on my fantasy league team and in that capacity I love him

In real life if I want to win games I'll take Cassel.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yea because Cassel couldn't take the most talented team in the NFL to the playoffs, scoring close to 200 fewer points, and put up close to 1,000 fewer yards with Cassel than when they did the year before.:spock:

The Patriots had a top 5 O-line, a top 5 receiving corp, and a top 5 offensive coordinator. Cassel was a game manager last season.

Cutler has had the worst defense in franchise history the past 2 seasons. Since the NFL started the 16 game regular season, no team forced fewer turnovers than Denver's defense did last season. I don't think very many QB's could win more than 8 games with the defense and injuries to the RB's we had last year. If Cutler didn't score points on every drive we would lose the game.

[Tiger's Fan]

IF Cassel isnt top 5 QB next year, it will be a major disappointment... Seeing how he elevated the game in NE, I expect him to bring the Chiefs to the forefront again...

Good lord, you live to be miserable don't ya? Please continue with your escape from reality.

[htismaqe]

Cassel is a better quarterback than Thigpen, and he knows the offense they're implementing. So I don't think expecting better performance out of him than Thigpen is exactly out in left field. Doesn't mean he'll deliver.

This.

[htismaqe]

Hey, I'm not holding you to anything here, I'm just looking forward to seeing what everyone says about Cassel mid-season. On a side note, are you saying that your personal expectations are unreasonable?

You won't see much of anything from me mid-season. I'm gonna give him more than 8 games to see what he can do.

And no, expecting him to be as good or better than Thigpen isn't unreasonable at all.

[AirForceChief]

now that's a sweet tag line:

"Yes, and Indianapolis, which had once had a way of speaking English all its own, and jokes and legends and poets and villains and heroes all its own, and galleries for its own artists, had itself become an interchangeable part in the American machine.

It was just another someplace where automobiles lived, with a symphony orchestra and all. And a race track.

Hi ho."

-Kurt Vonnegut

All I could add, in a very "ooooh who's an insider?" is: And so it goes.

[Archie Bunker]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-1710/Double-Coverage--Cassel-vs--Cutler.html

Double Coverage: Cassel vs. Cutler

March 5, 2009 12:30 PM

Posted by ESPN.com's Tim Graham and Bill Williamson

Tremors rumbled though the NFL after the New England Patriots traded quarterback Matt Cassel to the Kansas City Chiefs. But the actual deal wasn't as startling as the plot lines that emanated from it.

We learned that a three-way trade was possible in which Cassel would have gone to the Denver Broncos, who would have sent Jay Cutler to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The trade didn't materialize, but the mere fact the Broncos considered such a swap has caused considerable strain in Denver.

Does Broncos rookie head coach Josh McDaniels really think a breakout backup is a better quarterback than the 11th overall pick in the 2006 draft?

In this edition of Double Coverage, AFC West blogger Bill Williamson and AFC East counterpart Tim Graham debate the merits of Cutler and Cassel in an attempt to determine who the superior option is.

Why would McDaniels prefer Cassel over Cutler?

Tim Graham: Let's go ahead and cut to the chase, Bill. Cutler is one of the worst decision-makers in the NFL. He might be the league's most reckless starter now that Brett Favre has retired. McDaniels was raised within the Patriots organization, which places a premium on efficiency and accountability. McDaniels groomed Cassel from a player who hadn't started since high school into one of the NFL's more trustworthy passers. Cassel had a 2.1 interception percentage compared to Cutler's 2.9, but he rarely killed a drive with a bone-headed play.

Bill Williamson: Tim, there is no doubt about it. Cutler makes his share of mistakes. This guy is from the Brett Favre school of gun-slinging. He is fearless. Cutler has never seen a route he doesn't like. Often, it works in his favor; sometimes it doesn't. He does need to cut down on his interceptions. But the thing that teammates like so much about Cutler is that he tries to make the big play. And he is capable. Cutler has the ability to carry a team on his back. Cassel, again, is a system guy. In the fourth quarter, I'd take Cutler's arm and gumption any day.

TG: Cassel is no slouch late in games. Let's not forget that amazing play at the end of regulation in Week 11. With eight seconds left and the Patriots down by seven points from the New York Jets' 16-yard line, Cassel rolled right and threw a pin-point pass to Randy Moss along the sideline to send the game into overtime. It was a gutsy throw. But he never was tougher than in Week 15. A few days after his father passed away and before the funeral, Cassel threw for four touchdowns against the Raiders. Nobody can question the guy's heart.

BW: Good point, Tim. Cassel has been impressive in a short period of time. Cutler has his share of fourth-quarter magic as well. I think it all comes down to individual talent. Cutler possesses more talent than Cassel. There is a greater chance for Cutler to make a play by himself than Cassel. I think Cutler can freelance a little bit more, and he has the ability to wait out a play more because of his arm. If a play breaks down, Cutler can still make the best out of it because of his arm, field intelligence and scrambling ability.

Who has the better talent and upside?

BW: Tim, this is a no-brainer for several reasons. Cutler is younger. Cutler has 37 games of NFL experience. Cassel has 15-plus games of experience. Cutler has a rocket arm. Cassel relies on his receivers getting yards after the catch. Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback. Cassel is a system quarterback who was considered a backup until last September. Ask the other NFL teams who they'd rather have as their quarterback and in all likelihood, all of the teams that don't subscribe to the "Patriot Way" would pick Cutler. This is no knock on Cassel; he did a fine job in New England as Tom Brady's injury replacement, and he should be a good fit with former Patriot executive Scott Pioli in Kansas City. But Cutler is a player you can build a team around. Cassel is a player who fits a specific system.

TG: Cassel was a backup until September because he played behind two Heisman Trophy winners and a future Hall of Famer. That he was able to step in after so many years of holding a clipboard says an awful lot about the kind of ability he has. I'm not ready to classify Cassel a system quarterback. We do know that he thrived in the Patriots' system, but that doesn't mean he's limited to that. Cassel doesn't possess Cutler's rocket arm, but he can throw it. He also is a dangerous runner.

BW: Cutler also can run when he has to. He is a gamer who has a good field presence. If you take away their offenses and rebuild the other 10 players around them, I think Cutler's offense would succeed faster. Cassel seems to rely on the players around him. Cutler is a type of player who makes his teammates better.

TG: I get where you're coming from, Bill. Cutler is a franchise quarterback. I realize he was selected 11th overall and Cassel was lucky to get drafted at all. But I would be interested to see how many personnel executives would value Cassel's rare combination of age and potential if they could draft him today. This isn't a Chris Weinke situation, where you have an older quarterback with little experience. Cassel has been in the NFL for four years, albeit as a backup, but he has been working with elite teammates and has proven he can compete against elite opposition. He has the wisdom of years, but at the same time, he still might have untapped potential.

When it comes to being a winner, who has the edge?

TG: I think we can agree that both quarterbacks have had incredible supporting casts. Cassel had Moss, Wes Welker and a deep backfield. Cutler has Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley and Tony Scheffler. They both have benefited from legendary coaches. But maybe the bottom line is Cassel won 11 games and the Patriots got better as the season wore on. They should have appeared in the playoffs. With Cutler at the controls, the Broncos fell apart.

BW: Did you pay attention to that Denver defense, Tim? San Diego is still scoring points from that last game. Yes, Denver fell apart as the season wore on, but don't blame the quarterback. He didn't make all the right moves, but he had incredible pressure on him. Cutler virtually had to score every time the ball got into his hands. The defense was a liability all season, and it was incredibly porous at the end of the season, when it allowed a combined 112 points in the final three games. Denver blew a three-game lead with three games to go. It all culminated with that 52-point beauty at San Diego in the season-finale in a winner-takes-the-division game. Without Cutler, Denver would have won four or five games.

TG: Did you see the Patriots' offensive line? Cutler was sacked only 11 times. Cassel got dumped 47 times. That Cassel never went into shellshock is a miracle. But you're right: The Patriots had a defense that helped keep games manageable for Cassel. I guess the last thing I will say in Cassel's defense is that the guy is a survivor. He came to work every day and just waited for his chance to be an NFL starter. Now he finally gets a team to call his own. Cutler, on the other hand, has a team and he already wants out. I guess I find Cassel to have a cooler head inside his Riddell.

BW: Tim, I can't argue with the first part of your response, so I will take my shots at the last part. First, Cutler didn't want out until McDaniels wanted him out. Second, Cutler is as cool as they come. He is always composed, almost to the point where you wonder if he even has a pulse on the field. This stems from his days of excelling in the SEC despite playing for perennially outmanned Vanderbilt. Again, Cassel had a nice season and he should be fine with the Chiefs, but Cutler is a more known commodity, and he is more refined and more experienced. We know Cutler will get better because of his tools and his age. He's a sure thing. Cassel is a bit of a mystery. Is he a product of the Patriots' system or is he a diamond in the rough? We already know Cutler is a diamond.

[MagicHef]

You won't see much of anything from me mid-season. I'm gonna give him more than 8 games to see what he can do.

And no, expecting him to be as good or better than Thigpen isn't unreasonable at all.

Fair enough. I guess I'll just have to settle for reading hundreds of other people's posts instead of yours.

[MagicHef]

now that's a sweet tag line:

"Yes, and Indianapolis, which had once had a way of speaking English all its own, and jokes and legends and poets and villains and heroes all its own, and galleries for its own artists, had itself become an interchangeable part in the American machine.

It was just another someplace where automobiles lived, with a symphony orchestra and all. And a race track.

Hi ho."

-Kurt Vonnegut

All I could add, in a very "ooooh who's an insider?" is: And so it goes.

Who died?

[ChiefRon]

Damn, some of you better be careful of guzzling that kool-aid, you might choke on it.

[FringeNC]

You don't have to argue his qualities to me. I also think he'll be very good.

But look what you guys have:

1. new coaching staff.
2. unhappy RB.
3. highly questionable OLine
4. not a ton of talent at receiver positions other than TG.
5. new QB trying to figure out his coaches, the scheme, and the players around him.

IMHO it's just unrealisitic to expect a Pro Bowl season out of him in 2009. If you want to say 2010, then fine. But 2009?

I'm not saying it's completely impossible. But to EXPECT it, and have anythign less be a major disappointment? That seems a bit much.

I'm really not suggesting how good he's going to be. I honestly don't know. I do think that PIOLI has very high expectations for the guy. And then throw in the fact that McDaniels wanted him over Cutler (which is stunning)....It's the NE guys that think he's a Pro Bowl talent, not us. We're just hoping he is.

[Amnorix]

I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm getting at here.

He's going to have a couple of things here that he didn't have in New England - an offseason program as the starter and Tony Gonzales.

I'm not expecting him to have a Pro Bowl season. I am however suggesting that it's not unreasonable to expect him to be better than "average".

As to my personal expectations, I expect him to be better than Tyler Thigpen.

I don't think better than average or better than Thigpen is unreasonable. Someone threw around "top 5", which I think is silly.

[Amnorix]

Yea because Cassel couldn't take the most talented team in the NFL to the playoffs, scoring close to 200 fewer points, and put up close to 1,000 fewer yards with Cassel than when they did the year before.:spock:

We're the most talented team in the NFL? Really? Without Brady I'm not sure how many would say that.

The Patriots had a top 5 O-line, a top 5 receiving corp, and a top 5 offensive coordinator. Cassel was a game manager last season.

OLine was a mess first half of the year.

Cassell was indeed a game manager early part of the season. By the time he was winging the ball for 400 yards two games in a row late in the season, he had certainly broken out of that straitjacket.

And don't get carried away with the "no playoffs" thing. The "win 11 games but miss the playoffs" is a VERY rare event in the NFL. Pats bad luck, mostly self-inflicted by losing very tight games to the teams they could have or needed to beat, such as Indy, Steelers, second Jets game, etc.

[Chief Faithful]

Not that this is anything that hasn't already been said already, but Cutler's issue isn't his physical abilities. It's that he's a bit of a head case. I have my doubts that he'll ever be an elite QB in the league purely because of that. He's just not a good leader.

I fully expect Cutler's efficiency will drop without Shanarat.

[htismaqe]

I don't think better than average or better than Thigpen is unreasonable. Someone threw around "top 5", which I think is silly.

For the record, I think Top 5 is pretty silly too.

[Chief Faithful]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-1710/Double-Coverage--Cassel-vs--Cutler.html

Double Coverage: Cassel vs. Cutler

March 5, 2009 12:30 PM

Posted by ESPN.com's Tim Graham and Bill Williamson

Tremors rumbled though the NFL after the New England Patriots traded quarterback Matt Cassel to the Kansas City Chiefs. But the actual deal wasn't as startling as the plot lines that emanated from it.

We learned that a three-way trade was possible in which Cassel would have gone to the Denver Broncos, who would have sent Jay Cutler to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The trade didn't materialize, but the mere fact the Broncos considered such a swap has caused considerable strain in Denver.

Does Broncos rookie head coach Josh McDaniels really think a breakout backup is a better quarterback than the 11th overall pick in the 2006 draft?

In this edition of Double Coverage, AFC West blogger Bill Williamson and AFC East counterpart Tim Graham debate the merits of Cutler and Cassel in an attempt to determine who the superior option is.

Why would McDaniels prefer Cassel over Cutler?

Tim Graham: Let's go ahead and cut to the chase, Bill. Cutler is one of the worst decision-makers in the NFL. He might be the league's most reckless starter now that Brett Favre has retired. McDaniels was raised within the Patriots organization, which places a premium on efficiency and accountability. McDaniels groomed Cassel from a player who hadn't started since high school into one of the NFL's more trustworthy passers. Cassel had a 2.1 interception percentage compared to Cutler's 2.9, but he rarely killed a drive with a bone-headed play.

Bill Williamson: Tim, there is no doubt about it. Cutler makes his share of mistakes. This guy is from the Brett Favre school of gun-slinging. He is fearless. Cutler has never seen a route he doesn't like. Often, it works in his favor; sometimes it doesn't. He does need to cut down on his interceptions. But the thing that teammates like so much about Cutler is that he tries to make the big play. And he is capable. Cutler has the ability to carry a team on his back. Cassel, again, is a system guy. In the fourth quarter, I'd take Cutler's arm and gumption any day.

TG: Cassel is no slouch late in games. Let's not forget that amazing play at the end of regulation in Week 11. With eight seconds left and the Patriots down by seven points from the New York Jets' 16-yard line, Cassel rolled right and threw a pin-point pass to Randy Moss along the sideline to send the game into overtime. It was a gutsy throw. But he never was tougher than in Week 15. A few days after his father passed away and before the funeral, Cassel threw for four touchdowns against the Raiders. Nobody can question the guy's heart.

BW: Good point, Tim. Cassel has been impressive in a short period of time. Cutler has his share of fourth-quarter magic as well. I think it all comes down to individual talent. Cutler possesses more talent than Cassel. There is a greater chance for Cutler to make a play by himself than Cassel. I think Cutler can freelance a little bit more, and he has the ability to wait out a play more because of his arm. If a play breaks down, Cutler can still make the best out of it because of his arm, field intelligence and scrambling ability.

Who has the better talent and upside?

BW: Tim, this is a no-brainer for several reasons. Cutler is younger. Cutler has 37 games of NFL experience. Cassel has 15-plus games of experience. Cutler has a rocket arm. Cassel relies on his receivers getting yards after the catch. Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback. Cassel is a system quarterback who was considered a backup until last September. Ask the other NFL teams who they'd rather have as their quarterback and in all likelihood, all of the teams that don't subscribe to the "Patriot Way" would pick Cutler. This is no knock on Cassel; he did a fine job in New England as Tom Brady's injury replacement, and he should be a good fit with former Patriot executive Scott Pioli in Kansas City. But Cutler is a player you can build a team around. Cassel is a player who fits a specific system.

TG: Cassel was a backup until September because he played behind two Heisman Trophy winners and a future Hall of Famer. That he was able to step in after so many years of holding a clipboard says an awful lot about the kind of ability he has. I'm not ready to classify Cassel a system quarterback. We do know that he thrived in the Patriots' system, but that doesn't mean he's limited to that. Cassel doesn't possess Cutler's rocket arm, but he can throw it. He also is a dangerous runner.

BW: Cutler also can run when he has to. He is a gamer who has a good field presence. If you take away their offenses and rebuild the other 10 players around them, I think Cutler's offense would succeed faster. Cassel seems to rely on the players around him. Cutler is a type of player who makes his teammates better.

TG: I get where you're coming from, Bill. Cutler is a franchise quarterback. I realize he was selected 11th overall and Cassel was lucky to get drafted at all. But I would be interested to see how many personnel executives would value Cassel's rare combination of age and potential if they could draft him today. This isn't a Chris Weinke situation, where you have an older quarterback with little experience. Cassel has been in the NFL for four years, albeit as a backup, but he has been working with elite teammates and has proven he can compete against elite opposition. He has the wisdom of years, but at the same time, he still might have untapped potential.

When it comes to being a winner, who has the edge?

TG: I think we can agree that both quarterbacks have had incredible supporting casts. Cassel had Moss, Wes Welker and a deep backfield. Cutler has Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley and Tony Scheffler. They both have benefited from legendary coaches. But maybe the bottom line is Cassel won 11 games and the Patriots got better as the season wore on. They should have appeared in the playoffs. With Cutler at the controls, the Broncos fell apart.

BW: Did you pay attention to that Denver defense, Tim? San Diego is still scoring points from that last game. Yes, Denver fell apart as the season wore on, but don't blame the quarterback. He didn't make all the right moves, but he had incredible pressure on him. Cutler virtually had to score every time the ball got into his hands. The defense was a liability all season, and it was incredibly porous at the end of the season, when it allowed a combined 112 points in the final three games. Denver blew a three-game lead with three games to go. It all culminated with that 52-point beauty at San Diego in the season-finale in a winner-takes-the-division game. Without Cutler, Denver would have won four or five games.

TG: Did you see the Patriots' offensive line? Cutler was sacked only 11 times. Cassel got dumped 47 times. That Cassel never went into shellshock is a miracle. But you're right: The Patriots had a defense that helped keep games manageable for Cassel. I guess the last thing I will say in Cassel's defense is that the guy is a survivor. He came to work every day and just waited for his chance to be an NFL starter. Now he finally gets a team to call his own. Cutler, on the other hand, has a team and he already wants out. I guess I find Cassel to have a cooler head inside his Riddell.

BW: Tim, I can't argue with the first part of your response, so I will take my shots at the last part. First, Cutler didn't want out until McDaniels wanted him out. Second, Cutler is as cool as they come. He is always composed, almost to the point where you wonder if he even has a pulse on the field. This stems from his days of excelling in the SEC despite playing for perennially outmanned Vanderbilt. Again, Cassel had a nice season and he should be fine with the Chiefs, but Cutler is a more known commodity, and he is more refined and more experienced. We know Cutler will get better because of his tools and his age. He's a sure thing. Cassel is a bit of a mystery. Is he a product of the Patriots' system or is he a diamond in the rough? We already know Cutler is a diamond.

Are these guys in love with each other? They sure stroke each other a lot.

[Titty Meat]

We're the most talented team in the NFL? Really? Without Brady I'm not sure how many would say that.



OLine was a mess first half of the year.

Cassell was indeed a game manager early part of the season. By the time he was winging the ball for 400 yards two games in a row late in the season, he had certainly broken out of that straitjacket.

And don't get carried away with the "no playoffs" thing. The "win 11 games but miss the playoffs" is a VERY rare event in the NFL. Pats bad luck, mostly self-inflicted by losing very tight games to the teams they could have or needed to beat, such as Indy, Steelers, second Jets game, etc.

Wasn't it the Defense fault the Pats missed the playoffs? The Dolphins moved the ball over them with the Wildcat and they lost that Jets game in OT but didn't the offense rally down three scores?

[Al Czervik]

Yea because Cassel couldn't take the most talented team in the NFL to the playoffs, scoring close to 200 fewer points, and put up close to 1,000 fewer yards with Cassel than when they did the year before.:spock:

The Patriots had a top 5 O-line, a top 5 receiving corp, and a top 5 offensive coordinator. Cassel was a game manager last season.

Cutler has had the worst defense in franchise history the past 2 seasons. Since the NFL started the 16 game regular season, no team forced fewer turnovers than Denver's defense did last season. I don't think very many QB's could win more than 8 games with the defense and injuries to the RB's we had last year. If Cutler didn't score points on every drive we would lose the game.

So basically, Denver's defense caused Cutler to throw 18 interceptions?

LOL....Right.....Face it....He is a freakin basket case....Was at Vandy, and continues in Dungver

[vailpass]

Josh McDaniels has been very unimpressive to date. The kid coach wanting to bring in the Patriot back-up and pissing off the franchise QB is straight up stupid. Fucking Belichick-ite twerp.
I'm hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

[crazycoffey]

Neither one has really proved anything yet

[Quesadilla Joe]

So basically, Denver's defense caused Cutler to throw 18 interceptions?

LOL....Right.....Face it....He is a freakin basket case....Was at Vandy, and continues in Dungver

He is a little too cocky for his own good and thinks he can squeeze balls in between 3 defenders. Most of the time he completes it. The Brett Favre comparisons aren't that far off but Cutler has more mobility.

How is he a basket case? Because his new head coach told him one thing and then went and did the other?? Cutler wasn't mad because he was "on the trading block", he was mad because McDouchebag lied to him about it.

[MahiMike]

That seals the deal. Prisco is an idiot. Whatever he says, opposite is true.