Was Glenn Dorsey a "safe" pick in last year's draft?

[RealSNR]

All this talk about safe picks and which pick is the safest and everything has me confused.

I don't doubt that considering the talent available and what the Chiefs had to work with (nothing) he was by far the SMARTEST pick, and the most sensible one to make.

But was he a "safe" pick? And does smart always equal "safe" when selecting a 1st rounder?

It'd be interesting to see how the people in the different camps view this question and answer it.

[Sam Hall]

I think he was more of a boom or bust pick.

[CupidStunt]

Not at all. But he was the clear-cut BPA. Curry may be both, but he doesn't have the upside of Dorsey.

[keg in kc]

I would say no. "Safe" indicates limited upside, high floor/low ceiling, whereas Dorsey was a legitimate top-5 talent, high floor/high ceiling. That doesn't mean he can't be a bust, of course.

[KCrockaholic]

Not at all. But he was the clear-cut BPA. Curry may be both, but he doesn't have the upside of Dorsey.

please, lets not discuss Curry again on CP until the day before the draft...I cant take it anymore.

[RustShack]

Hes as safe as a more talented Ryan Sims.

[DeezNutz]

"Safe" in the sense that he was the no-brainer selection, and thus the pick would receive almost no backlash from any circles (fans, "experts," etc).

The "safe" pick in terms of the least chance of busting probably would have been Rivers or Mayo, ironically enough. But, of course, these players still could have gone tits up, and still could, I suppose.

[CupidStunt]

please, lets not discuss Curry again on CP until the day before the draft...I cant take it anymore.

Don't worry, I deal in reality, not hyperbolic "Curry sucks, wahhh" or "Curry rules, shut up!" shit.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I don't think the DT position in particular is ever a "safe" pick. Those guys have to enjoy eating to get into that postion, and a lot of them are lazy after getting the big pay day. That said, I am confident we will all be ecstatic about the Dorsey pick a couple of years from now. 4-3, 3-4, whatever.

[kc rush]

"Safe" in the sense that he was the no-brainer selection, and thus the pick would receive almost no backlash from any circles (fans, "experts," etc).

The "safe" pick in terms of the least chance of busting probably would have been Rivers or Mayo, ironically enough. But, of course, these players still could have gone tits up, and still could, I suppose.

Having Herm Edwards as a coach sure doesn't help. Hopefully Dorsey can turn it around, but retaining captain slappy as his position coach worries me.

[DeezNutz]

Having Herm Edwards as a coach sure doesn't help. Hopefully Dorsey can turn it around, but retaining captain slappy as his position coach worries me.

No reason not to be hopeful about Dorsey, system be damned.

Let's give the kid plenty of time.

[KCrockaholic]

Don't worry, I deal in reality, not hyperbolic "Curry sucks, wahhh" or "Curry rules, shut up!" shit.

well thats reassuring. :)

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Having Herm Edwards as a coach sure doesn't help. Hopefully Dorsey can turn it around, but retaining captain slappy as his position coach worries me.

I don't personally think he has anything lost yet, my fellow Rushian. It generally takes DT's a while to progress.

[kc rush]

I don't personally think he has anything lost yet, my fellow Rushian. It generally takes DT's a while to progress.

I certainly haven't given up on him, I just worry that Krumrie will slow the guys natural progression.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I certainly haven't given up on him, I just worry that Krumrie will slow the guys natural progression.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that Krummie (sic) is a liability.

[KCrockaholic]

I wholeheartedly agree with you that Krummie (sic) is a liability.

Does anyone know why Pioli and Haley choose to keep him? That has to be the worst move so far by our new management.

[MoreLemonPledge]

Does anyone know why Pioli and Haley choose to keep him? That has to be the worst move so far by our new management.

They're not going to be able to trade him because of his salary. No team will take that on for an unproven player.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Herm destroyed our defense last year, Mr. cover 2 don't rush the QB dickhead. Dorsey will have a great year in 09, just watch. And yes he was the safe pick. Solid on and off the field with a good head on his shoulders and a great work ethic.

[TEX]

Does anyone know why Pioli and Haley choose to keep him? That has to be the worst move so far by our new management.

So Haley can get some new material...

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Does anyone know why Pioli and Haley choose to keep him? That has to be the worst move so far by our new management.



Ummm....Maybe because they know more about it than you and I :shrug:

[Chiefnj2]

I don't think QB's or DT's are ever "safe". Large bust margin on those guys.

[kc rush]

They're not going to be able to trade him because of his salary. No team will take that on for an unproven player.

Krumrie not Dorsey.

[KCrockaholic]

They're not going to be able to trade him because of his salary. No team will take that on for an unproven player.

What? Im talking about Tim Krumrie...Not Dorsey, but I agree with what you said refering to Dorsey.

[melbar]

I would say no. "Safe" indicates limited upside, high floor/low ceiling, whereas Dorsey was a legitimate top-5 talent, high floor/high ceiling. That doesn't mean he can't be a bust, of course.

Since when does "safe" mean limited upside? I know it is thrown around here like it does, but safe only means less chance of bust. It means a guy has a higher floor not lower ceiling. Now, a guy may be closer to his ceiling meaning he has already achieved more with his talent. If 100 were the ceiling on 2 players the safer pick would be a guy who is already an 80 not a guy who is at 60. Sure the 2nd guy has potential to grow 40%, but the guy who only has 20% isnt a less talented player because he only has the potential to grow half as much. He's just fulfilled more of his potential in less time. You already know he's at least 80. Player 2 may end up better but #1 is better now thus making him "safer".

Dorsey had NO talent around him in the front 7 and I think he did pretty well considering that fact.

[DeezNutz]

Dorsey had NO talent around him in the front 7 and I think he did pretty well considering that fact.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the front four was/is comprised of all first day picks.

Yikes. But Edwards was still a great evaluator of talent.

[Saccopoo]

Everyone on this defense from last year gets a two year free pass from me. Having to work in an amalgamated system that tried to employ Gun's blitz/stunt "mad scientist" schemes and a straight-forward Cover 2 approach via Herm was a train wreck. I didn't like the cover two, as it seemed to utilize coverage schemes that were not conducive to the pass interference rules that became increasingly enforced since the 2004 season. And without a true pass rusher, such as Jared Allen, Gun's system wasn't going to be effective.

Several players have mentioned that they had no idea what was going on out there and felt that they were playing out of position.

Dorsey had moments last year. Disappeared as well. He was a rookie. There is a learning curve going from the college ranks to the NFL. I thought he did okay.

He was generally considered the best player in the draft. The safest picks would have been Jake Long, followed by Jerod Mayo, Brandon Albert and Dustin Keller. There were a lot of players last year who I would have considered a reach. I think that the Chiefs did a miraculous job of getting some really good players at each pick. Players with both upside and potential, as well as some degree of safety. It was a really good draft, and should serve as a cornerstone for this franchise as we move towards respectability in the NFL.

[KCrockaholic]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the front four was/is comprised of all first day picks.

Yikes. But Edwards was still a great evaluator of talent.

As much as I hate him...I wont argue that he was very good at finding the talent. Being a scout in the late 80's/early 90's really helped him in finding talent IMO.

[KCrockaholic]

Everyone on this defense from last year gets a two year free pass from me. Having to work in an amalgamated system that tried to employ Gun's blitz/stunt "mad scientist" schemes and a straight-forward Cover 2 approach via Herm was a train wreck. I didn't like the cover two, as it seemed to utilize coverage schemes that were not conducive to the pass interference rules that became increasingly enforced since the 2004 season. And without a true pass rusher, such as Jared Allen, Gun's system wasn't going to be effective.

Several players have mentioned that they had no idea what was going on out there and felt that they were playing out of position.

Dorsey had moments last year. Disappeared as well. He was a rookie. There is a learning curve going from the college ranks to the NFL. I thought he did okay.

He was generally considered the best player in the draft. The safest picks would have been Jake Long, followed by Jerod Mayo, Brandon Albert and Dustin Keller. There were a lot of players last year who I would have considered a reach. I think that the Chiefs did a miraculous job of getting some really good players at each pick. Players with both upside and potential, as well as some degree of safety. It was a really good draft, and should serve as a cornerstone for this franchise as we move towards respectability in the NFL.


Defensive Lineman take about 2 full years on average to develop into good players...There is nothing wrong with Dorsey IMO. But I agree with your post.

[MoreLemonPledge]

It's going to be very interesting to see how he pans out this year. I really don't think he'll be a successful NT.

[melbar]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the front four was/is comprised of all first day picks.

Yikes. But Edwards was still a great evaluator of talent.

I know...sad isnt it?:shake:

[htismaqe]

Since when does "safe" mean limited upside?

Since forever.

If a guy has a high floor AND a high ceiling, he's called Calvin Johnson.

[KCrockaholic]

It's going to be very interesting to see how he pans out this year. I really don't think he'll be a successful NT.

He needs to get bigger if he even wants to attempt playing NT. Maybe he could try out DE first in the 3-4. Its worth a try I guess.

[MoreLemonPledge]

He needs to get bigger if he even wants to attempt playing NT. Maybe he could try out DE first in the 3-4. Its worth a try I guess.

I talked to a couple of Chiefs players at work last night and they're trying Dorsey at NT. They said he's up to 330 and they're going to give him a shot.

[melbar]

I think outside of the injury questions Dorsey was considered a "safe" cant miss pick even though he was considered the best player in the draft.

[bdeg]

Everyone on this defense from last year gets a two year free pass from me. Having to work in an amalgamated system that tried to employ Gun's blitz/stunt "mad scientist" schemes and a straight-forward Cover 2 approach via Herm was a train wreck. I didn't like the cover two, as it seemed to utilize coverage schemes that were not conducive to the pass interference rules that became increasingly enforced since the 2004 season. And without a true pass rusher, such as Jared Allen, Gun's system wasn't going to be effective.

Several players have mentioned that they had no idea what was going on out there and felt that they were playing out of position.

Dorsey had moments last year. Disappeared as well. He was a rookie. There is a learning curve going from the college ranks to the NFL. I thought he did okay.

He was generally considered the best player in the draft. The safest picks would have been Jake Long, followed by Jerod Mayo, Brandon Albert and Dustin Keller. There were a lot of players last year who I would have considered a reach. I think that the Chiefs did a miraculous job of getting some really good players at each pick. Players with both upside and potential, as well as some degree of safety. It was a really good draft, and should serve as a cornerstone for this franchise as we move towards respectability in the NFL.

Good points. Running the cover 2 with those safeties and pass rush is the definition of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

I do still see it as a great draft, no question.

[melbar]

Since forever.

If a guy has a high floor AND a high ceiling, he's called Calvin Johnson.

So the best players are gambles?

[bdeg]

It's going to be very interesting to see how he pans out this year. I really don't think he'll be a successful NT.
I was very happy to hear Haley's comments that he'll be used in an attacking role. Hopefully that means shooting gaps.

[bdeg]

I talked to a couple of Chiefs players at work last night and they're trying Dorsey at NT. They said he's up to 330 and they're going to give him a shot.

Really? That sounds like the opposite of what Haley said.

[KCrockaholic]

I talked to a couple of Chiefs players at work last night and they're trying Dorsey at NT. They said he's up to 330 and they're going to give him a shot.

Ok, Sure

I was very happy to hear Haley's comments that he'll be used in an attacking role. Hopefully that means shooting gaps.

I was thinking the same thing when I read that.

[MoreLemonPledge]

Really? That sounds like the opposite of what Haley said.

I was surprised to hear it, too, but that's what the player, who is a defensive lineman, said. Whether he was just humoring me or not, I don't know. I found it interesting, though.

[DeezNutz]

As much as I hate him...I wont argue that he was very good at finding the talent. Being a scout in the late 80's/early 90's really helped him in finding talent IMO.

Good thing I was being serious.

Edwards has the reverse Midas touch with all things football related. Being able to draft slightly better than Vermeil hardly makes one competent.

He hitched his wagon to Brodie Croyle. That's how astute Edwards' eye is when it comes to player evaluations and all the variables that contribute to making a successful NFL player.

[Dave Lane]

Not at all. But he was the clear-cut BPA. Curry may be both, but he doesn't have the upside of Dorsey.

Not even close...

I was thrilled with Dorsey as a pick. On the field meh...

[Dave Lane]

Good thing I was being serious.

Edwards has the reverse Midas touch with all things football related. Being able to draft slightly better than Vermeil hardly makes one competent.

He hitched his wagon to Brodie Croyle. That's how astute Edwards' eye is when it comes to player evaluations and all the variables that contribute to making a successful NFL player.

Agreed. Drafting 5th and having 9 picks could make a genius out of me too.

[Demonpenz]

I talked to a couple of Chiefs players at work last night and they're trying Dorsey at NT. They said he's up to 330 and they're going to give him a shot.

that is what I heard too. I thought he was going to be more warren sapp than ted washington, but I guess they are going to play at nt :( :( :(

[bdeg]

that is what I heard too. I thought he was going to be more warren sapp than ted washington, but I guess they are going to play at nt :( :( :(

And you heard this from a legit source as well?

If he's really at 330 maybe he'll be able to handle it, I'm excited to find out exactly what they'll do.

[KCrockaholic]

I was surprised to hear it, too, but that's what the player, who is a defensive lineman, said. Whether he was just humoring me or not, I don't know. I found it interesting, though.

he seriously gained 30 pounds over just 4 months? I have a hard time believing it is mostly muscle if thats the case.

[bdeg]

he seriously gained 30 pounds over just 4 months? I have a hard time believing it is mostly muscle if thats the case.

There were reports he was playing at 315-320 last year at request of the coaching staff.

[Demonpenz]

And you heard this from a legit source as well?

If he's really at 330 maybe he'll be able to handle it, I'm excited to find out exactly what they'll do.

it wasn't legit but just the hersay, but I am dissapointed that we can't find a fatass from zarda bbq and plop his fat ass in at nt instead of taking a guy who I thought would provide pressure up the middle

[MoreLemonPledge]

he seriously gained 30 pounds over just 4 months? I have a hard time believing it is mostly muscle if thats the case.

He was at my work last night, too. I wanted to see exactly how much bigger he looked but he was sitting down.

[KCrockaholic]

He was at my work last night, too. I wanted to see exactly how much bigger he looked but he was sitting down.

pot belly? or bulk? thats all I wanna know.

[KCrockaholic]

There were reports he was playing at 315-320 last year at request of the coaching staff.

320? thats not far from NT weight.

[MoreLemonPledge]

pot belly? or bulk? thats all I wanna know.

Bulk I would say. I didn't get a real good look though.

[Saccopoo]

Agreed. Drafting 5th and having 9 picks could make a genius out of me too.

The Chiefs had the luxury of the 15th pick, which allowed them to be a bit more adventurous with the 5th pick on Dorsey. Albert was the safe necessary pick, Dorsey was the roll the dice because of his insane college level play in a good conference and hope it translates to a potential "next Warren Sapp" at the NFL level.

They could have reached at the five spot and selected a guy like Gholston or Harvey. Chris Long was a huge reach IMHO as well.

But they also got great value in the draft with Flowers, Charles, Cottam, Morgan and Carr. Freaking stole these guys. Flowers would have been a top ten pick if he ran a tenth of a second faster at the combine, but because of his great fluidity in his hips and positioning of his feet on the run, he plays much faster in pads in a game situation.

Getting guys like Franklin, Richardson, Robinson and Johnston were nice picks in that they had potential, and with some coaching, I think they'll be good complimentary players - Johnston and Robinson especially. (Robinson gets a ration of crap around here for some reason, but the guy was hurt for most of the season. I think he'll play well this next season if he's still on the team after the cut down to 53.)

[MoreLemonPledge]

I think almost everyone agreed last year that the Chiefs were the draft day winners and that Dorsey was a steal where we got him.

[Saccopoo]

320? thats not far from NT weight.

I don't know why we are worrying about Dorsey as the NT. If Tank isn't a legit 340 I'd be shocked. I thought Tank played well last year all things considered, and felt that he'd be able to transition to the two-gap NT in a 3-4 if the Chiefs decided to go that route.

[bdeg]

320? thats not far from NT weight.

Yes, and he knows how to throw his weight around and bullrush from his college days.

He may be a great NT, but my thinking at this point after seeing us get run all over last year(not all his fault, but he certainly didn't have a positive impact on it save a few good plays) is closer to this:
it wasn't legit but just the hersay, but I am dissapointed that we can't find a fatass from zarda bbq and plop his fat ass in at nt instead of taking a guy who I thought would provide pressure up the middle
Dorsey's quickness will be neutralized.

Anyway thanks for the info lemon and penz.

[KCrockaholic]

I don't know why we are worrying about Dorsey as the NT. If Tank isn't a legit 340 I'd be shocked. I thought Tank played well last year all things considered, and felt that he'd be able to transition to the two-gap NT in a 3-4 if the Chiefs decided to go that route.

according to everything ive seen, Tyler hardly touches 310. At 310 he cant be our NT.

[bdeg]

I don't know why we are worrying about Dorsey as the NT. If Tank isn't a legit 340 I'd be shocked. I thought Tank played well last year all things considered, and felt that he'd be able to transition to the two-gap NT in a 3-4 if the Chiefs decided to go that route.

Has Tank ever been close to that weight? I thought he was closer to 300-310.

306 according to chiefs site

[KCrockaholic]

Has Tank ever been close to that weight? I thought he was closer to 300-310.

306 according to chiefs site

Not even close I dont think. The most hes ever weighed according the sources that ive found is 320. But hes actually lost weight since then.

[Saccopoo]

according to everything ive seen, Tyler hardly touches 310. At 310 he cant be our NT.

Tank's head and neck alone are worth three bills. 306 seems like a fabrication or just a continuation of his combine weight. Does anyone really think that Shaun Rogers is 350?

[KCrockaholic]

Sam Adams: 6-3, 350
Jamal Williams: 6-3, 348
Haloti Ngata: 6-4, 340
Vince Wilfork: 6-2, 325
Pat Williams: 6-3, 317

we need NT's this size.

[Demonpenz]

not that I really give a shit about these robot players, but I can't think it is good for a black guy to be 340 pounds.

[bdeg]

Tank's head and neck alone are worth three bills. 306 seems like a fabrication or just a continuation of his combine weight. Does anyone really think that Shaun Rogers is 350?

Fair enough. I thought Tank played well last year all things considered, too.

[KCrockaholic]

He needs to get more consistent. His "lights on, lights off" play is unacceptable.

[bdeg]

He definitely hasn't reached his potential yet, but he's shown flashes of dominance. Consistency is definitely key.

[Nightfyre]

Dorsey is almost a waste at NT. I'd be more interested in seeing what he can do at DE in the 3-4. His strengths coming out of college were definitely working in space and beating the double-team. Sounds like a good fit for 3-4 DE for me.

[EyePod]

He was the can't miss best player in the draft. He will get better.

[Talisman]

He wasn't a safe jersey pick, but hey, I'm always reaching when it comes to picking jerseys to buy. My Boerigter one works almost as well as a ShamWow when it comes to cleaning up spills.

[keg in kc]

There were reports he was playing at 315-320 last year at request of the coaching staff.Yeah. I really don't like the idea of having him play even heavier than that, and was hoping they'd drop him down. He looked like he'd lost most of his explosion in 2008.

Haley mentioned something in a press conference a few weeks back about using him in more of a penetrating role, to take advantage of his quickness, but bulking him another 10 pounds so he can play fireplug NT sounds like the opposite, and may be a real waste.

[Chief Faithful]

Good thing I was being serious.

Edwards has the reverse Midas touch with all things football related. Being able to draft slightly better than Vermeil hardly makes one competent.

He hitched his wagon to Brodie Croyle. That's how astute Edwards' eye is when it comes to player evaluations and all the variables that contribute to making a successful NFL player.

I saw four things Edwards f'd up bad:
1. Like you say, "he hitched his wagon to Brodie Croyle". But Huard was argueably a bigger goof.
2. Needed to fill the gaps with veteran free agents. You can't rely on guys like Adrian Jones and Pat Thomas as stop gaps until the team can draft replacements.
3. Needed to let Gun run his own defense and stop trying to shove an outdated cover 2 scheme down the teams throat. They didn't have the talent, leadership, or experience to run that defense.
4. Can't fix defensive shortcomings by throttling the offense.

As for Dorsey I thought he was the right pick and will be a productive player for the Chiefs.

[Saccopoo]

I saw four things Edwards f'd up bad:
1. Like you say, "he hitched his wagon to Brodie Croyle". But Huard was argueably a bigger goof.
2. Needed to fill the gaps with veteran free agents. You can't rely on guys like Adrian Jones and Pat Thomas as stop gaps until the team can draft replacements.
3. Needed to let Gun run his own defense and stop trying to shove an outdated cover 2 scheme down the teams throat. They didn't have the talent, leadership, or experience to run that defense.
4. Can't fix defensive shortcomings by throttling the offense.

As for Dorsey I thought he was the right pick and will be a productive player for the Chiefs.

I agree with all of these, #3 being the biggest shortcoming. I know he doesn't get much love around here, but I liked Croyle. Smart and makes all the throws. Guys seemed to like him on the team and mentioned that he had an excellent huddle demeanor. And I feel bad for him on the broken leg. That sandwich hit would have broken any quarterbacks leg. Freak accident that probably doomed his career as he's now perceived as fragile (and probably always was to an extent). I think he will be an excellent #2 for the Chiefs for a long time. A good guy to run against the defense in practice due to his arm strength. I'd say that the biggest screw up last season was when Croyle and Huard went down, and the Chiefs decided that Thigpen was their guy and they hitched the team to him. It was unbelievably painful to watch him "throw" passes and Herm and Carl just sat there like a deer in the headlights, watching the tragedy unfold. Gailey worked miracles by the end of the season, but Thigpen still couldn't make a pass to save his life - even by game 16.

[htismaqe]

Vermeil let Gunther run his own defense and it was awful.

[KcFanInGA]

Gunther has to be one of the most overrated Dc's of all time. Period.

[bdeg]

I'd say that the biggest screw up last season was when Croyle and Huard went down, and the Chiefs decided that Thigpen was their guy and they hitched the team to him. It was unbelievably painful to watch him "throw" passes and Herm and Carl just sat there like a deer in the headlights, watching the tragedy unfold. Gailey worked miracles by the end of the season, but Thigpen still couldn't make a pass to save his life - even by game 16.

Haha I love it, couldn't agree more. You could see the opposing DC's realized it as the safeties wouldn't worry too much about the deep stuff. It was very frustrating to see Bradley or Darling break past the last line of d only to have Thigpen consistently throw it out of bounds or 10 yards short.

I also agree Croyle will be a good backup. Some have advocated drafting a developmental QB late this year, but I think Croyle's that guy. He can get stronger which would improve his durability.

[DaneMcCloud]

I also agree Croyle will be a good backup. Some have advocated drafting a developmental QB late this year, but I think Croyle's that guy. He can get stronger which would improve his durability.

Fully and completely disagree.

The guy has torn both ACL's, had shoulder injuries and just can't stay healthy. Adding more weight and muscle to his frame would likely cause further issues with his knees.

I can't imagine that he'll be on the Chiefs roster in September, let alone be a good backup anywhere.

His body won't allow it.

[Jethopper]

Fully and completely disagree.

The guy has torn both ACL's, had shoulder injuries and just can't stay healthy. Adding more weight and muscle to his frame would likely cause further issues with his knees.

I can't imagine that he'll be on the Chiefs roster in September, let alone be a good backup anywhere.

His body won't allow it.

This