Legal Steroids

[MTG#10]

Whats the closest thing to steroids that you can buy over the counter or online? Im looking for something that will enhance the effectiveness of working out without the side effects of illegal anabolic steroids.

I used to be pretty cut back in my early 20's and used all kinds of supplements but I never really knew if they were helping or not. Ive let myself go a little bit since then, Im not fat but Im definitely soft and with summer coming up ive decided to get back in shape.

[El Jefe]

Anti-Freeze gel capsules.

[RustShack]

Raw eggs.

[Gonzo]

Everytime I see a thread like this, I'm reminded of: (NSFW)

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[BigCatDaddy]

Whats the closest thing to steroids that you can buy over the counter or online? Im looking for something that will enhance the effectiveness of working out without the side effects of illegal anabolic steroids.

I used to be pretty cut back in my early 20's and used all kinds of supplements but I never really knew if they were helping or not. Ive let myself go a little bit since then, Im not fat but Im definitely soft and with summer coming up ive decided to get back in shape.

You can buy steroids over the counter but there will be side effects just like the illegal ones. Do some research at prohormoneforum.com. You will get much better advise there then here.

[MTG#10]

Everytime I see a thread like this, I'm reminded of: (NSFW)

<object height="344" width="425">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4JMOh-cul6M&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

Thats hilarious. Unfortunately Im not doing it for the pussy, Im married. :(

[jaa1025]

1.5 grams of protein per # of weight

[Gonzo]

Thats hilarious. Unfortunately Im not doing it for the pussy, Im married. :(

MUSCLE MILK!!!!

HGH!!!

PROTIEN!!!!

POWER BAR!!!!

[MTG#10]

1.5 grams of protein per # of weight

When I used to lift all protein did was go to my gut. Didnt help me much at all.

[MTG#10]

Do some research at prohormoneforum.com. You will get much better advise there then here.

Holy shit thats a lot of info to sort through. I was hoping there was something you could take before and/or after a workout that would give quick results. All that talk of stacking and cycles is too much info for me, maybe I'll just stick to eating right.

[BigCatDaddy]

When I used to lift all protein did was go to my gut. Didnt help me much at all.

It's required to help your body rebuild the muscle fibers you tear down while training. You probably didn't eat the correct type of foods, or have a solid ratio of carbs/proteins/fats.

[BigCatDaddy]

Holy shit thats a lot of info to sort through. I was hoping there was something you could take before and/or after a workout that would give quick results. All that talk of stacking and cycles is too much info for me, maybe I'll just stick to eating right.

There is, but you need to have your diet and training in check first. The list of the best over the counter steroids are Havoc, S-Drol, Pheraplex, H-Drol, and Trendadrol to name a few. There are possible side effects associated with each, most notiably gyno and shutdown of test production while on cycle. If you want something safer and more mainstream, try some SizeOn or MassFx.

[MTG#10]

Ive heard of MassFX, a guy at work bought some but never heard of SizeOn. Do they actually work? MassFX looks a little "gimmicky" to me.

[BigCatDaddy]

Ive heard of MassFX, a guy at work bought some but never heard of SizeOn. Do they actually work? MassFX looks a little "gimmicky" to me.

I have not used MassFx, but have good heard things. I have used SizeOn by Gasapri and it worked. It just depends on what you are expecting.

[MTG#10]

Everything Im reading about MassFX says to stack with Hyperdrol.

Im 5'11" and weigh 185 lbs - how much/often of the two would you recommend I take? Also is this a good deal and trustworthy store?

http://www.netnutri.com/browse.cfm/4,2955.htm?gclid=CNve0vnk_5kCFQoMDQodYShJFg

[Mr. Krab]

HGH fragments and peptides

[Iowanian]

Its just a guess, but you could probably absorb some legal testosterone by ingesting large quantities of semen....

[BWillie]

Some pro-hormones have more sides than illegal steroids.

[BigCatDaddy]

Everything Im reading about MassFX says to stack with Hyperdrol.

Im 5'11" and weigh 185 lbs - how much/often of the two would you recommend I take? Also is this a good deal and trustworthy store?

http://www.netnutri.com/browse.cfm/4,2955.htm?gclid=CNve0vnk_5kCFQoMDQodYShJFg

I haven't taken it so I'm not sure. I would recommend starting a thread on BodyBuilding.com and asking that question. I've bought from them before and they screwed up my order. I would also order from Bodybuilding.com. They are by far the best site to order from.

[loochy]

Ive heard of MassFX, a guy at work bought some but never heard of SizeOn. Do they actually work? MassFX looks a little "gimmicky" to me.

Dude, it's all gimmicky. Eat more protein and lift - that's it. Food is the most anabolic substance there is.

[BigCatDaddy]

Some pro-hormones have more sides than illegal steroids.

True. If he went that route then H-Drol would probably be the to go for a first timer.

[Skip Towne]

Its just a guess, but you could probably absorb some legal testosterone by ingesting large quantities of semen....

No doubt

[BigCatDaddy]

Dude, it's all gimmicky. Eat more protein and lift - that's it. Food is the most anabolic substance there is.

What is all gimmicky? Buy a bottle or RPN Havoc for $29.99 at Nutraplanet.com, take it for 4 weeks and get back to me.

[dj56dt58]

take gakic...shit works. don't take it right before bed though, you won't sleep for a while

it gives you a 10% strength increase so you can lift more weight and more reps than normal. It's 70.00 at gnc, you can get it on amazon for 40.00. 120 caplets, 8 per serving.

take creatine as well to fuel your muscles and build them back up quickly.

[BigCatDaddy]

take gakic...shit works. don't take it right before bed though, you won't sleep for a while

it gives you a 10% strength increase so you can lift more weight and more reps than normal. It's 70.00 at gnc, you can get it on amazon for 40.00. 120 caplets, 8 per serving.

take creatine as well to fuel your muscles and build them back up quickly.

Gakic is one of the few MT products worth a crap.

[MTG#10]

I thought all creatine did was make your muscles retain water so the look bigger?

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Cocunut Cream Pie.

[MTG#10]

What is all gimmicky? Buy a bottle or RPN Havoc for $29.99 at Nutraplanet.com, take it for 4 weeks and get back to me.

Would that stuff work better than the mass fx you recommended? Do you have to stack it to notice results like mass fx? Thats a pretty good price compared to other stuff Ive been looking at and it has great reviews. I would love to be able to use just one product instead of several at the same time.

[BigCatDaddy]

Would that stuff work better than the mass fx you recommended? Do you have to stack it to notice results like mass fx? Thats a pretty good price compared to other stuff Ive been looking at and it has great reviews. I would love to be able to use just one product instead of several at the same time.

Well the politically correct answer would be "No" steroids are bad, you need to research for a year and educate yourself first. But if your like me you say screw it and take a bottle, put 40 lbs on your bench in a month, and gain about 20lbs. But there really could be side effects. It will shut down your test production and could kill your labido and make you lethargic toward the last week. You should also take something for Post Cycle Therapy. The pro's will tell you to take a SERM, but you could get buy with a bottle of Reveristol. Again this isn't the most detailed and safest advice, but you could get a bottle of Havoc and then take a bottle of Reveristol after that to get your body back to normal function.

[MTG#10]

How often do take a cycle of Havoc? Is it just a one time thing, or do you take another cycle after you're finished with your Reversitol?

[BigCatDaddy]

How often do take a cycle of Havoc? Is it just a one time thing, or do you take another cycle after you're finished with your Reversitol?

Rule of thumb is time off should be time on + PCT. So I would take 2-3 months off before running another hormonal altering product.

[DenverChief]

V-Tren or T-bomb

Good stuff you can buy for $40 a bottle @ "The nutrition Company" I used it and saw amazing results. Just came off a cycle of 30 days. It is as close to trenblone as you can get ...just make sure you buy a bottle of reversitol at the same time and start taking it a couple of days before your cycle ends

[DenverChief]

FYI max muscle also sells the same stuff but at quite a markup of about $90 a bottle...I would reccomend buying their name brand protein mixes as they are very tasty. Also don't for get to get a vitamin to take every morning, I loved their liquid vitamin they sold...just take a shot in the AM, you are already taking a ton of pills why take more?

[SBK]

Do this for your workout. I'm doing it now and I've never gained strength, or mass as fast.

Do 4-7 exercises, I do bench, squat, back rows, shoulder press then vary between leg curls, extensions or biceps and triceps each week.

When lifting count to 5, one thousand one, one thousand 2 etc so you do 5 seconds up and 5 seconds down. Then you want to lift until failure, which should be 8-12 reps, no more. Wait 3 minutes between each exercise. It takes about 30 minutes and you should lift 2x per week.

For diet it's good to eat lots of protein, veggies and stuff like black beans, pinto beans or lentils. I usually have a meat, veggie and beans for meals, or I'll eat eggs sometimes too. Within 90 minutes of the workout you can have 'white' carbs, like pizza and things, but only in that time line. I'd be doing better if I obeyed that rule.

Anyway, I could see in 2 weeks a difference in my arms, legs and chest. That was a total of 4 workouts, 2 hours of time at the gym.

[BigCatDaddy]

V-Tren or T-bomb

Good stuff you can buy for $40 a bottle @ "The nutrition Company" I used it and saw amazing results. Just came off a cycle of 30 days. It is as close to trenblone as you can get ...just make sure you buy a bottle of reversitol at the same time and start taking it a couple of days before your cycle ends

V-Tren? Who makes that?

T-Bomb is a Natty Test Booster, not a steroid.

[MTG#10]

BCD - Do you take anything for your liver while taking Havoc?

[DenverChief]

Do this for your workout. I'm doing it now and I've never gained strength, or mass as fast.

Do 4-7 exercises, I do bench, squat, back rows, shoulder press then vary between leg curls, extensions or biceps and triceps each week.

When lifting count to 5, one thousand one, one thousand 2 etc so you do 5 seconds up and 5 seconds down. Then you want to lift until failure, which should be 8-12 reps, no more. Wait 3 minutes between each exercise. It takes about 30 minutes and you should lift 2x per week.

For diet it's good to eat lots of protein, veggies and stuff like black beans, pinto beans or lentils. I usually have a meat, veggie and beans for meals, or I'll eat eggs sometimes too. Within 90 minutes of the workout you can have 'white' carbs, like pizza and things, but only in that time line. I'd be doing better if I obeyed that rule.

Anyway, I could see in 2 weeks a difference in my arms, legs and chest. That was a total of 4 workouts, 2 hours of time at the gym.

Yea but in 30 days can you make a ~50% jump in weight?

[DenverChief]

V-Tren? Who makes that?

T-Bomb is a Natty Test Booster, not a steroid.

Max Muscle has their own blend, I took a cycle of that and bought abottle from TNC but I can't remember the manufacturers name "castle" something IIRC

[BigCatDaddy]

BCD - Do you take anything for your liver while taking Havoc?

Since it methylated you can if you want to be extra careful. Liv52 is a good choice and cheap on Ebay.

[DenverChief]

V-Tren? Who makes that?



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=782980

[SBK]

Yea but in 30 days can you make a ~50% jump in weight?

Body weight, or weight you lift?

[googlegoogle]

Try youtube searching p90x workouts. They don't use heavy heavy weights.

They use rubber bands. Burn off those extra calories with some sort of aerobics.

Don't DIET. Reducing calaries only wastes your muscle. I learned this the hard way.(angry)

Keep a log of what you eat. Only try and eat enough calories to grow more muscle. You will always get some fat with anabolism.

[B_Ambuehl]

Jesus Fuck.

For starters you might want to ask questions like this somewhere where more people have the knowledge to help you. You've gotten some VERY idiotic advice so far.

Next, how about training and dieting consistently?

IMO if you're gonna use steroids you're better off using real established steroids. The OTC options differ only in the fact that their molecular structure wasn't patented by drug companies. There are a multitude of reasons all these legal steroid moleculaes weren't sought after and patented by drug companies. Their effectiveness to side effect ratio is completely out of whack. The side effects are the, same if not even greater, while the benefits are less.

Cue the BB.com PH bro's.

[BigCatDaddy]

Try youtube searching p90x workouts. They don't use heavy heavy weights.

They use rubber bands. Burn off those extra calories with some sort of aerobics.

Don't DIET. Reducing calaries only wastes your muscle. I learned this the hard way.(angry)

Keep a log of what you eat. Only try and eat enough calories to grow more muscle. You will always get some fat with anabolism.

This = Stupid

[BigCatDaddy]

Jesus ****.

For starters you might want to ask questions like this somewhere where more people have the knowledge to help you. You've gotten some VERY idiotic advice so far.

Next, how about training and dieting consistently?

IMO if you're gonna use steroids you're better off using real established steroids. The OTC options differ only in the fact that their molecular structure wasn't patented by drug companies. There are a multitude of reasons all these legal steroid moleculaes weren't sought after and patented by drug companies. Their effectiveness to side effect ratio is completely out of whack. The side effects are the, same if not even greater, while the benefits are less.

Cue the BB.com PH bro's.

Which brings us back to the thread title "Legal Steroids".

[MOhillbilly]

iso- 4x8 3 on one off 3 on. drink lots of water.

4 exercises for each muscle group. so one day you do arms 4x8x4 Bis 4x8x4 Tris.
i did 1)arms/shoulders 2)legs/lower back 3)upper back/chest 4)off

hard work is the only way to get natural gains.

[googlegoogle]

Are you guys injecting this stuff?

[googlegoogle]

This = Stupid

I think stupid replies are the ones with replies of 'stupid' and nothing else.

P90x seems to make you cut legally. So you're saying it's a lie huh?

[Brock]

I thought all creatine did was make your muscles retain water so the look bigger?

LOL, no.

[jidar]

When I used to lift all protein did was go to my gut. Didnt help me much at all.

...

lol

jesus fucking christ

[tooge]

If you are wanting to look good, your question should have been to the chicks on the board. It should have been "what looks better, a bulked up cut look, or a lean cut look?" I used to lift real heavy weights and take aminos and whey protein in order to add mass and size. Most gals I know think that look is really sort of funny, not hot. My wife tells me she thinks lean and cut is way hotter than bulky. Not to mention that when you get old enough that the metabolism really slows down, or a joint injury prevents you from working out, guess what happens to all that mass you built up? It turns to crap and you look bulky and uncut. Forever! Do what your body was designed to do. Lots of cardio (think of chasing and being chased by animals), eat lots of lean protein and fruits and vegetables. Take in 5 or 6 smaller meals a day. Lift with lots of reps of lighter weights. Train your core (abs, back, hips, gluts) hard daily

[MTG#10]

...

lol

jesus ****ing christ



Ok bad choice of words. It was probably helping during the healing process, but I swear as soon as I started drinking that shit my stomach got flabby and when I quit it tightened back up.

[MTG#10]

LOL, no.
Creatine doesnt help your muscles retain water?

[BigVE]

Wow. I read through this entire thread and there is alot of bad advice. First off, if you dont really know what creatine does then you really have no business messing with any type of pro-hormone or steroids. 2nd of all, the only legal steroids are ones given to by perscription by your Dr. 3rd, pro-hormones or any other oral steroids are not legal either....the real ones aren't. There are shady websites around that will sell u stuff that may or may not work. The old addage about steroids applies here, Oral steroids: all the bad side effects of REAL steroids with almost none of the benefits. FWIW, I have taken pro-hormone type oral "steroids" in the past *(they dont call them steroids) and YES I did have brief size and strength gains but they were temporary...they go away almost as soon as you quit taking them no matter how hard you keep working out. There is a reason the pro's take the real steroids for 16+ weeks, thats how u keep your gains. My whole-hearted honest recommendation would be to eat plenty of good quality protein, a good quality CEE (creatine ethyl ester), lots of water and eat lots of good food. Stay away from the drugs, especially oral type of steroids because the negative side-effects outweigh the brief positives. You only have one liver.

[CrazyPhuD]

Creatine doesnt help your muscles retain water?

No it does in fact, and I can demonstrate this not only by weight going up but by body water percentage also increasing. That said, creatine has been shown in actual medical studies to have a statistically significant gain in muscle mass.

I actually started using it way back in college but stopped a while ago, I started back again for my workouts, when I was talking to my dad about workouts and he actually mentioned it(he's an actual MD). Studies back up that it does help gain. Not nearly as huge as steriods obviously but also not the side effects.

[googlegoogle]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

[wild1]

interesting thread.

enough books have been written about this to fill the grand canyon. people will argue about it until the end of time.

it sounds like what is wanted is a shortcut but you're concerned about the risks. instead of worrying that your liver is going to blow up or something, why not just do the sure thing? make the requisite lifestyle changes.

[chiefbowe82]

First off you need to have your diet in check before you worry about any supplements or they won't be doing a whole lot of good. I don't know when you workout (you should be working out atleast 3-4 times per week) I go Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, I go upper body monday and thursday, lower body tuesday and friday. So go get yourself a gym membership. I don't know what your goals are exactly...For breakfast eat complex carbs and slow digesting protein such as oatmeal, eggs, and a banana. I don't know when/if you work out. but preworkout you want carbs and protein again, workout hard absolutely push yourself-you have to put in hard work in and out of the gym you can't have one without the other, especially after your beginner gains. Post workout speed is the key replenishing lost nutrients and rebuilding muscle fibers, so a quick acting protein like whey protein, along with fast acting carbs, and creatine is great here. I personally use universal torrent for postwork (a supplement that be found at bodybuilding.com) You should be eating 6 meals a day. Drink lots of water and eat a veggie with lunch and supper. Avoid processed foods, fats, beer, soda as much as possible I realize you may need a little once in awhile to keep yourself sain. You should get 20-30 grams of protein with each meal try to pick a main healthy protein, carb, and healthy fat source- aim for 1.5 g's of protein per pound of bodyweight each day. Before bed, Slow acting protein also known as casein protein is big to help fuel your body throughout the night so you don't go into the catabolic state. So milk and eggs or cottage cheeese is a good choice here. It takes hard work, consistency, motivation, and the willpower to follow through. Btw a GREAT place to learn about dieting, workouts, supplements, everything you possible need can be found at bodybuilding.com, and not chiefsplanet :) And heres to a happy transformation!

[Silock]

When I used to lift all protein did was go to my gut. Didnt help me much at all.

Your diet had to have sucked, then. Did you track your calories in/out? I suspect the answer to that is "No."

[Silock]

maybe I'll just stick to eating right.

First thing you've said that is a great idea.

[Silock]

I thought all creatine did was make your muscles retain water so the look bigger?

That's one of the aspects of it, but not the ONLY aspect. Are you under the impression that your muscles aren't composed of a ton of water as it is?

[Silock]

When lifting count to 5, one thousand one, one thousand 2 etc so you do 5 seconds up and 5 seconds down. Then you want to lift until failure, which should be 8-12 reps, no more. Wait 3 minutes between each exercise. It takes about 30 minutes and you should lift 2x per week.

I have no problem with your actual routine, but lifting to failure every time you workout isn't the most efficient or effective way to stimulate them. Lifting to failure more than once every few weeks isn't a good idea.

[Silock]

Don't DIET. Reducing calaries only wastes your muscle. I learned this the hard way.(angry)


That's absolutely ridiculous. Your diet must have sucked. You need the appropriate amount of fat, protein and carbohydrates (remember: carbs are protein-sparing).

[Silock]

Btw a GREAT place to learn about dieting, workouts, supplements, everything you possible need can be found at bodybuilding.com, and not chiefsplanet :) And heres to a happy transformation!

Good stuff. However, I've found that the store at dpsnutrition.com is usually cheaper than bb.com.

Also, he might want to look into time-release Beta Alanine supplementation instead of or in addition to creatine supplementation.

[wild1]

What is all gimmicky? Buy a bottle or RPN Havoc for $29.99 at Nutraplanet.com, take it for 4 weeks and get back to me.

i've heard of Havoc, what can you tell us about it?

afraid to look up things on the internet about this kind of stuff, there's so much viral marketing out there

[MTG#10]

I appreciate everyone's help and advice, I think Im just going to stick to a healthy diet and try protein shakes out again. Maybe try creatine later on but not until Ive got a good training program established. Im not big on going to the gym, cant stand people so I'll just do it like I did in my early 20's and stick to running, push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, dips, and my good ol' trusty curl bar.

[BigCatDaddy]

First off you need to have your diet in check before you worry about any supplements or they won't be doing a whole lot of good. I don't know when you workout (you should be working out atleast 3-4 times per week) I go Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, I go upper body monday and thursday, lower body tuesday and friday. So go get yourself a gym membership. I don't know what your goals are exactly...For breakfast eat complex carbs and slow digesting protein such as oatmeal, eggs, and a banana. I don't know when/if you work out. but preworkout you want carbs and protein again, workout hard absolutely push yourself-you have to put in hard work in and out of the gym you can't have one without the other, especially after your beginner gains. Post workout speed is the key replenishing lost nutrients and rebuilding muscle fibers, so a quick acting protein like whey protein, along with fast acting carbs, and creatine is great here. I personally use universal torrent for postwork (a supplement that be found at bodybuilding.com) You should be eating 6 meals a day. Drink lots of water and eat a veggie with lunch and supper. Avoid processed foods, fats, beer, soda as much as possible I realize you may need a little once in awhile to keep yourself sain. You should get 20-30 grams of protein with each meal try to pick a main healthy protein, carb, and healthy fat source- aim for 1.5 g's of protein per pound of bodyweight each day. Before bed, Slow acting protein also known as casein protein is big to help fuel your body throughout the night so you don't go into the catabolic state. So milk and eggs or cottage cheeese is a good choice here. It takes hard work, consistency, motivation, and the willpower to follow through. Btw a GREAT place to learn about dieting, workouts, supplements, everything you possible need can be found at bodybuilding.com, and not chiefsplanet :) And heres to a happy transformation!

Excellent post. Once you have this down then you can move on to more advanced things if you like, but some supplements do work and can help keep things fresh and intersting especially once you have hit the wall.

[Dante84]

As far as creatine goes, I take Storm EVF from Universal Nutrition. I am in my third week, and I can really tell the gains. Also, I can really feel the pump after a lift!
I lift 3 days a week, and very intense workouts. I take one scoop on non-lift days, and two scoops on lift days (30 mins before lifting, and as soon as I can after lifting).

Also, as an extra benefit, it tastes great! Fruit punch kinda tastes like mashed up sweet tarts. And I fucking love sweet tarts.

I also am taking a whey protein supplement as well. 1.5 scoops in the morning every day, and 1.5 scoops post workout on lifting days.

I am 5'11 and weigh 182 lbs. I am 23 years old on Saturday the 25th, and I am devoted to losing my college gut. I started working out last August 08, but I slacked and was very inconsistent. I noticed little gains, but that was because I went from nothing to something, even if I half assed it.

I got serious about it in Feb. 09. I want to get in shape for summer, and I desperately want a six pack like I had in highschool. I have the top two visible, the middle two are barely visible, and of course the bottom two are wrapped by an ever shrinking spare tire.

I ran three miles tonight, and I am very excited and proud of myself. I never thought I would be able to do that!

So keep it up, and good luck. As the other guys said, this probably isn't the place to learn about getting in shape and what-not, but it helps to talk to normal dudes in similar situations instead of meat heads at the gym or on body building forums.

PS- you said you aren't doing it to get pussy, because you are married. Do it for yourself then! Pull a Lester Burnam from American Beauty, just don't try and fuck your teenage daughter's friend. Or get shot. Man I love that movie.

[Simplex3]

There was a bodybuilder probably more than ten years ago who retired and said that it was no longer bodybuilding, it was chemical warfare.

[BWillie]

I thought all creatine did was make your muscles retain water so the look bigger?

Yes, precisely. I don't actually look bigger or gain much weight on creatine like most people though. I notice about 2 lbs gain if that, and that's it. But it hydrates you with more water where you need it so you can lift more. When you lift more, you put extra strain on your muscles that you otherwise wouldn't of had, thus forcing your muscles to adapt and get larger/stonger after creatine isn't in your system.

[googlegoogle]

Prohormones.

don't know if they work.

[T-post Tom]

.. just don't try and **** your teenage daughter's friend.

Too late: I think at least one poster has already confessed to this. :D

[BigCatDaddy]

Prohormones.

don't know if they work.

They do. Google it.

[Dante84]

Too late: I think at least one poster has already confessed to this. :D

Damnit! I haven't been here long enough yet! That would have been a really good thread back in my lurkin' days.

[MTG#10]

Which one of these creatine products would you guys recommend? Do the cheaper brands work as well as the more expensive brands?

http://www.nutraplanet.com/search?query=creatine

[BigVE]

Which one of these creatine products would you guys recommend? Do the cheaper brands work as well as the more expensive brands?

http://www.nutraplanet.com/search?query=creatine

I dont know about all the brands on that list but CEE (creatine ethyl ester) is what I would get. It's a bit more expensive but CEE is more easily absorbed by your body than monohydrate. The cheapest form is the powder that you mix in water or juice or something but you have to be TOUGH to choke that stuff down....i used up a whole jug and still dreaded taking it every time. The pills are much easier to deal with. lol

[MTG#10]

I was kind of wondering about that. Do the pills actually work? I would much rather take the pills but I have a feeling the powder would work better for some reason.

[BigVE]

I was kind of wondering about that. Do the pills actually work? I would much rather take the pills but I have a feeling the powder would work better for some reason.


Yeah, they work. Get a decent brand...doesnt have to be the most expensive ones though. CEE compared to monohydrate is like PRO football vs. pop warner.

[MTG#10]

What is nitric oxide creatine? Is it better than CEE?

http://www.amazon.com/BSN-NO-XPLODE-Nitric-Oxide-Creatine-Servings/dp/B000JWBZUS/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1241275002&sr=1-7

[BigVE]

What is nitric oxide creatine? Is it better than CEE?

http://www.amazon.com/BSN-NO-XPLODE-Nitric-Oxide-Creatine-Servings/dp/B000JWBZUS/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1241275002&sr=1-7

Not sure...guys used to take N.O. along with the creatine so its a natural mix I guess. The N.O. would usually give you an extreme muscle pump while/after lifting...I didnt care for it but some guys loved it.

[kcfan82]

You used to be able to get cyclofenil at GNC back before I knew what it was.

The guy at GNC told me the Chiefs and KU football came in a regularly bought them out of it.

http://www.cyclofenil.com/

[chiefbowe82]

I was kind of wondering about that. Do the pills actually work? I would much rather take the pills but I have a feeling the powder would work better for some reason.

Powder is much better than the pills

[chiefbowe82]

CEE is very gross tasting but one of the best creatine products out their for the money. Your not taking supplements for their taste though are you?

I mentioned in another post I take universal torrent post workout, It's regarded as possibly the best post workout sub with great taste. I almost puked the first couple times taking it, but got used to it very quickly.

[bdeg]

www.bulknutrition.com best site to buy bulk cee

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=1619

yellow gatorade masks it pretty well

their 500g is significantly cheaper than the site you posted too

[MTG#10]

Powder is much better than the pills

Thats what I figured, but Im not sure why. The capsules are pretty much the same thing as the powder, just more concentrated. If you took the capsules with a big glass of water wouldnt it be the same?

[BigVE]

Thats what I figured, but Im not sure why. The capsules are pretty much the same thing as the powder, just more concentrated. If you took the capsules with a big glass of water wouldnt it be the same?

Yes. The only reason to buy the powder is you get SO much for the money...a dose of CEE is pretty much the same if you take it in capsule form or choke down the god-awful powder.

[MTG#10]

Yes. The only reason to buy the powder is you get SO much for the money...a dose of CEE is pretty much the same if you take it in capsule form or choke down the god-awful powder.

Do you have a brand recommendation/website for capsules?

[BigVE]

Do you have a brand recommendation/website for capsules?

Nope, I was cheap so I choked down the powder...it was from nutraplanet.

[MTG#10]

These look like the most creatine/serving for the price.

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=7113

Anyone ever tried anything made by Sports Nutrition International?
(http://www.bulknutrition.com/?manufacturers_id=390)

[googlegoogle]

Most of the information offered here is wrong. Typical cliched bs you hear at bodybuilding websites who live off of steroids. High Protein does keep you leaner but it's expensive.

Bodybuilding websites just push expensive supplements. We get enough protein in our diets already.

There is zero research showing protein builds muscle. Muscle is mostly water.

Calories/energy needed for the body make muscle. google it.

I ate a high high protein diet and didn't gain any muscle mass. You need to gain weight to build muscle and you will gain some fat. You will need to do some aerobic type calorie burning excercises. Reducing calories will burn some muscle. It's unstoppable.

[Silock]

High Protein does keep you leaner but it's expensive.

Um, no, it's not.

Bodybuilding websites just push expensive supplements. We get enough protein in our diets already.

Actually, most people DON'T get enough protein. "Many of us don't get the RDA for protein. Roughly 25 percent of adults over age 20, and 40 percent of those age 70 and up, fall below it, according to United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics, let alone eat enough to protect bones or muscle." That's not even taking into account that the RDA for protein is ridiculously low.

There is zero research showing protein builds muscle. Muscle is mostly water.

Wow, talk about irony. "Most of the information offered here is wrong."

Do you even KNOW what makes muscles grow? Obviously not. Muscles are built from protein. Sorry you failed 5th grade biology, but that's a fact. Google that. When you exercise, you break down muscle fibers. In order for them to grow, they need to repair. They don't repair with just water. They repair with amino acids/proteins and take on additional mass in order to cope with the next time you exercise. Now, there is some contradictory research as to whether or not one actually builds more muscle fibers or if the ones one has simply get bigger, but there is no serious medical or biological doubt that proteins are absolutely necessary to build muscle.

Calories/energy needed for the body make muscle. google it.

Yes, it's true that you need energy to build muscle.

I ate a high high protein diet and didn't gain any muscle mass.

That anecdotal evidence doesn't fly. Not gaining muscle mass could be due to a multitude of factors, such as total caloric intake and what routine you were doing. Given the massive amount of misinformation you've been spewing, it wouldn't surprise me at all if your routine blew goat nuts.

You need to gain weight to build muscle and you will gain some fat.

Again, not true. You can most certainly build muscle without gaining fat. It's just a slower process than consuming mass quantities of food every day and hoping for the best. Eating a clean, balanced diet can shed fat and build muscle at the same time; just don't expect results overnight.

[MTG#10]

I decided to cut back on my calorie intake and start running everyday to try to get rid of this spare tire Ive put on in the last few years - does this mean I wont be able to build any new muscle since I will be burning more calories than Im taking in?

[BigCatDaddy]

Most of the information offered here is wrong. Typical cliched bs you hear at bodybuilding websites who live off of steroids. High Protein does keep you leaner but it's expensive.

Bodybuilding websites just push expensive supplements. We get enough protein in our diets already.

There is zero research showing protein builds muscle. Muscle is mostly water.

Calories/energy needed for the body make muscle. google it.

I ate a high high protein diet and didn't gain any muscle mass. You need to gain weight to build muscle and you will gain some fat. You will need to do some aerobic type calorie burning excercises. Reducing calories will burn some muscle. It's unstoppable.

Wrong Wrong wrong!!! Quit posting your bullshit. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

[rtmike]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=782980

Thanks for the link. :thumb:

I browsed around and found the stickied thread of the paralyzed dude who's a body builder. He's actually from Ottawa, Ks. He's had an L1 fractured spine like me. One of the videos shows him eventually walking with no crutches.

Now that's an inspiration for me to get back off my ass & start walking more again. I always wondered if an L1 survivor eventually walked without lofstran crutches, now I have proof.

My daughter's only 8 so I have plenty of time to fullfill my dream of walking her down the isle w/o crutches. IT CAN BE DONE.

[googlegoogle]

Wrong Wrong wrong!!! Quit posting your bullshit. You don't know what the **** you are talking about.

You call science bull. Ok, where is the proof that muscle growth is just with high protein diets. All the research i have read says it's calories and not protein. Science and dietitians say it's calories and we get enough protein in a regular diet.

[luv]

Why do you need steroids of any kind to get in shape?

[chiefbowe82]

Why do you need steroids of any kind to get in shape?

I'm baffled to

[Silock]

You call science bull. Ok, where is the proof that muscle growth is just with high protein diets. All the research i have read says it's calories and not protein. Science and dietitians say it's calories and we get enough protein in a regular diet.

Link to peer reviewed articles, please. Seriously, that doesn't even make sense. Why would they need just random calories in order to grow? By that logic, you could scarf down a bucket of lard and grow muscles. There has to be some kind of building blocks for the muscles to use. Do you think muscles need calories in order to take on water? That's not how that works, anyway. Muscles need calories and energy for a reason: They're using it to repair. And that repair isn't done just by expending energy. It's done by assembling the cellular structures inside muscles needed to grow.

[Silock]

I decided to cut back on my calorie intake and start running everyday to try to get rid of this spare tire Ive put on in the last few years - does this mean I wont be able to build any new muscle since I will be burning more calories than Im taking in?

Not necessarily. Part of burning calories when you're overweight is the mobilization of fat stores to energy use. I mean, you're going to have to do weight training in addition to running. And really, weight training should take priority over running... building and maintaining muscles requires energy every second of the day, whereas running does not. And if you really want to maximize your cardio time, look into HIIT. You get more fat burn bang for your time. Doing a full-body weight routine 3 times per week, followed by 30 minutes of HIIT, and 30-45 minutes of HIIT on the days in between will shed the fat like you wouldn't believe, and you won't have to starve yourself in order for it to happen.

Make sure you're getting enough protein (and no, it doesn't have to be in supplement form... chicken is cheap at Sam's in bulk, as is flash frozen salmon, which is preferable), and not starving yourself and you'll be fine. I mean, you're not going to turn into Arnold overnight or anything, but of course you'll be building some muscle. Your body will respond to the stresses put on it. However, if you're not getting enough calories, your body will go into starvation mode and being conserving as much fat as possible.

But 300-400 calories per day under maintenance will do fine. That's a little under 1 pound per week of weight loss just from diet alone, not counting whatever exercise you do.

[wild1]

Why do you need steroids of any kind to get in shape?

Everyone likes shortcuts. I wish there were one too.

If most people made any kind of reasonable boundaries for their diet and worked hard every day on their bodies, a year from now you wouldn't recognize them. It isn't that complicated.

Tell someone that they should cut out all fast food, fried food, dessert food, candy, soft drinks, alcohol.. to work out every day for an hour and that they have to do all that forever.. you might as well have kicked their dog.

We want to buy a bottle of magic beans that will take care of it while we sit around eating baconators.

I'm not beating up on the original poster, it sounds like he is working hard and it will work, eventually. we have an instant gratification culture. it's not just him, we're all conditioned to think that way.

Your body is a reflection of who you are. It broadcasts to everyone you meet what you think of yourself, and they form an opinion about you in accordance to what you tell them with your body. You have to take pride in yourself and invest in yourself and your body will reflect it. But it doesnt happen overnight, it is a pursuit that you have to follow as a way of life

[googlegoogle]

Link to peer reviewed articles, please. Seriously, that doesn't even make sense. Why would they need just random calories in order to grow? By that logic, you could scarf down a bucket of lard and grow muscles. There has to be some kind of building blocks for the muscles to use. Do you think muscles need calories in order to take on water? That's not how that works, anyway. Muscles need calories and energy for a reason: They're using it to repair. And that repair isn't done just by expending energy. It's done by assembling the cellular structures inside muscles needed to grow.

I have read most of the research articles and none show big growth of muscles eating high protein diets. (rat experiments are inconclusive) The protein is just burnt for energy. Eating a bucket of lard would have the calories but would be hazardous to your health but so is high fat in high protein foods like red meats. The dietitians recommend eating carbs to give your body the energy for muscle growth.

I got a lot stronger supplementing my diet with pizza. 300lbs on the bench and ZERO supplements. Just natural food and gaining weight.

[googlegoogle]

Everyone likes shortcuts. I wish there were one too.

If most people made any kind of reasonable boundaries for their diet and worked hard every day on their bodies, a year from now you wouldn't recognize them. It isn't that complicated.

Tell someone that they should cut out all fast food, fried food, dessert food, candy, soft drinks, alcohol.. to work out every day for an hour and that they have to do all that forever.. you might as well have kicked their dog.

We want to buy a bottle of magic beans that will take care of it while we sit around eating baconators.

I'm not beating up on the original poster, it sounds like he is working hard and it will work, eventually. we have an instant gratification culture. it's not just him, we're all conditioned to think that way.

Your body is a reflection of who you are. It broadcasts to everyone you meet what you think of yourself, and they form an opinion about you in accordance to what you tell them with your body. You have to take pride in yourself and invest in yourself and your body will reflect it. But it doesnt happen overnight, it is a pursuit that you have to follow as a way of life

Steroids should be legal. I can understand what your saying. Our bodies change after time. I think all people at a certain time should take them to replace hormones our bodies make less of.

[Silock]

I have read most of the research articles and none show big growth of muscles eating high protein diets. (rat experiments are inconclusive) The protein is just burnt for energy. Eating a bucket of lard would have the calories but would be hazardous to your health but so is high fat in high protein foods like red meats. The dietitians recommend eating carbs to give your body the energy for muscle growth.

I got a lot stronger supplementing my diet with pizza. 300lbs on the bench and ZERO supplements. Just natural food and gaining weight.

Complaining about the fat in red meat and then talking about gorging on pizza = a fucking joke, dude. You do realize that even cheese pizza contains a pretty large amount of protein, right? And never mind the fact that grass fed beef contains high levels of omega 3s, linoleic acid, and has about the same amount of fat as a skinless chicken breast . . . googlegoogle says red meat is bad, so it must therefore be!!! I suppose next you're going to tell me that eating high-protein foods like salmon is a no-no, too.

And no one ever said supplements were necessary. They're not. They're just easier.

Just satisfy my curiosity -- How tall are you, what do you weigh, and what's your body fat %? Bonus points if you post your workout routine and how many times per week you do it.

Still waiting on that peer reviewed research.

[Silock]

Just because I'm an asshole, I'm going to go ahead and put your ridiculous argument to rest. Yes, protein builds muscle. Took about 10 minutes of a PubMed search.

Here you go:
Effects of dietary carbohydrate restriction with high protein intake on protein metabolism and the somatotropic axis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15972575?ordinalpos=54&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

CONCLUSIONS: Increasing dietary protein content during a 7-d carbohydrate restricted diet stimulated muscle protein synthesis and whole-body proteolysis without a measurable change in fat free mass.

Level of dietary protein impacts whole body protein turnover in trained males at rest.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16546481?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Protein oxidation increased with increasing protein intake (54% +/- 6%, 25% +/- 1%, and 14% +/- 2% for HP, MP, and LP diets, respectively). Findings from this study show that variations in protein intake can modulate WBPTO and that protein intake approximating the current recommended dietary allowance was not sufficient to achieve nitrogen balance in the endurance-trained males in this investigation. Our results suggest that a protein intake of 1.2 g/kg or 10% of total energy intake is needed to achieve a positive nitrogen balance. This is not a concern for most endurance athletes who routinely consume protein at or above this level.

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562251?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

(INCONCEIVABLE!)

Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

In summary, protein requirements for athletes performing strength training are greater than for sedentary individuals and are above current Canadian and US recommended daily protein intake requirements for young healthy males.

Dietary protein intake impacts human skeletal muscle protein fractional synthetic rates after endurance exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15914508?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Protein oxidation increased with increasing protein intake, with each trial being significantly different from the other (P < 0.01). FSR after exercise was significantly greater for LP (0.083%/h) and MP (0.078%/h) than for HP (0.052%/h; P < 0.05). There was no difference in FSR between LP and MP. This is the first investigation to establish that habitual dietary protein intake in humans modulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis after an endurance exercise bout.

International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_PMC&linkpos=1&log$=citedinpmcarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

1) Vast research supports the contention that individuals engaged in regular exercise training require more dietary protein than sedentary individuals. 2) Protein intakes of 1.4 - 2.0 g/kg/day for physically active individuals is not only safe, but may improve the training adaptations to exercise training. 3) When part of a balanced, nutrient-dense diet, protein intakes at this level are not detrimental to kidney function or bone metabolism in healthy, active persons. 4) While it is possible for physically active individuals to obtain their daily protein requirements through a varied, regular diet, supplemental protein in various forms are a practical way of ensuring adequate and quality protein intake for athletes. 5) Different types and quality of protein can affect amino acid bioavailability following protein supplementation. The superiority of one protein type over another in terms of optimizing recovery and/or training adaptations remains to be convincingly demonstrated. 6) Appropriately timed protein intake is an important component of an overall exercise training program, essential for proper recovery, immune function, and the growth and maintenance of lean body mass. 7) Under certain circumstances, specific amino acid supplements, such as branched-chain amino acids (BCAA's), may improve exercise performance and recovery from exercise.

Protein coingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18430966?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein coingestion stimulates whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during resistance-type exercise.

Contemporary Issues in Protein Requirements and Consumption for Resistance Trained Athletes

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18500966

In summary protein requirements appear to be elevated for strength training athletes. This increased need is attributed to enhanced oxidation rates of endogenous amino acids during exercise [27], the need for increased substrate to repair damaged muscle tissue [12], and the capacity to maintain elevated protein synthesis for greater amounts of muscle tissue [18].

(But protein doesn't build muscle, right?)

Amino acids have two critical attributes in the regulation of protein synthesis. First, they act as building blocks for the formation of new muscle tissue [12], and secondly, they act as signaling molecules which stimulate the protein synthetic pathway [62].

(And amino acids come from where? Oh, that's right... protein.)

Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16448570

There is evidence that high protein intake increases protein synthesis by increasing systemic amino acid availability [21], which is a potent stimulus of muscle protein synthesis [22]

[Coach]

ROFL @ nlm on the links.

[wild1]

Steroids should be legal. I can understand what your saying. Our bodies change after time. I think all people at a certain time should take them to replace hormones our bodies make less of.

they are legal... when used for legitimate purposes under the supervision of an individual qualified to oversee that.

[MTG#10]

Why do you need steroids of any kind to get in shape?

Honestly when I started this thread I had convinced myself that if they were legal they must be safe, so why not? After researching this for the last couple weeks I have found that they arent as safe as I thought and have decided against it. Im just going to stick with eating right, hard work, and protein/creatine supplements. I will probably continue looking for "shortcuts", but none that involve messing with my hormones.

[luv]

Honestly when I started this thread I had convinced myself that if they were legal they must be safe, so why not? After researching this for the last couple weeks I have found that they arent as safe as I thought and have decided against it. Im just going to stick with eating right, hard work, and protein/creatine supplements. I will probably continue looking for "shortcuts", but none that involve messing with my hormones.

Good.

[BigCatDaddy]

Just because I'm an asshole, I'm going to go ahead and put your ridiculous argument to rest. Yes, protein builds muscle. Took about 10 minutes of a PubMed search.

Here you go:
Effects of dietary carbohydrate restriction with high protein intake on protein metabolism and the somatotropic axis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15972575?ordinalpos=54&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum



Level of dietary protein impacts whole body protein turnover in trained males at rest.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16546481?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562251?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



(INCONCEIVABLE!)

Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Dietary protein intake impacts human skeletal muscle protein fractional synthetic rates after endurance exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15914508?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_PMC&linkpos=1&log$=citedinpmcarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Protein coingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18430966?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Contemporary Issues in Protein Requirements and Consumption for Resistance Trained Athletes

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18500966



(But protein doesn't build muscle, right?)



(And amino acids come from where? Oh, that's right... protein.)

Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16448570

I gave him a link to similar studies and he still just sticks his head up his ass and pretends like they don't exist.

[Silock]

Well, hopefully someone else can get some mileage out of those links.

[DenverChief]

Thanks for the link. :thumb:

I browsed around and found the stickied thread of the paralyzed dude who's a body builder. He's actually from Ottawa, Ks. He's had an L1 fractured spine like me. One of the videos shows him eventually walking with no crutches.

Now that's an inspiration for me to get back off my ass & start walking more again. I always wondered if an L1 survivor eventually walked without lofstran crutches, now I have proof.

My daughter's only 8 so I have plenty of time to fullfill my dream of walking her down the isle w/o crutches. IT CAN BE DONE.

AWESOME! good luck and keep me up to date!

[googlegoogle]

Just because I'm an asshole, I'm going to go ahead and put your ridiculous argument to rest. Yes, protein builds muscle. Took about 10 minutes of a PubMed search.

Here you go:
Effects of dietary carbohydrate restriction with high protein intake on protein metabolism and the somatotropic axis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15972575?ordinalpos=54&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum



Level of dietary protein impacts whole body protein turnover in trained males at rest.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16546481?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562251?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



(INCONCEIVABLE!)

Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Dietary protein intake impacts human skeletal muscle protein fractional synthetic rates after endurance exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15914508?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_PMC&linkpos=1&log$=citedinpmcarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Protein coingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18430966?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed



Contemporary Issues in Protein Requirements and Consumption for Resistance Trained Athletes

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18500966



(But protein doesn't build muscle, right?)



(And amino acids come from where? Oh, that's right... protein.)

Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16448570

It was found that hyperinsulemia increased protein synthesis greatly. Therefore, mechanisms which enhance the insulin response to food may enhance protein accretion. The efficacy of combining carbohydrates and protein on insulin secretion was demonstrated by Ivy et al. [98] who found that the combined effects of protein and a high glycemic carbohydrate were greater on stimulating insulin secretion than their independent effects.
Summary of the effect of carbohydrates and fats on protein balance
In summary it appears that both carbohydrates and proteins have similar nitrogen sparing effects [34,83]. In this context it may be advisable to increase fats when carbohydrates are lowered. However because carbohydrates are critical to athletic performance [84] the athlete should be conscious of decreased intensity and performance with decreased carbohydrate intakes. Finally, there appears to be an interaction effect between protein and carbohydrates in stimulating insulin secretion [98-100]. This latter effect may be beneficial when manipulated for protein accretion purposes.

do you read this stuff or just post links. We get enough protein in our diets already to build muscle. If you don't have calories and carbs then you aren't going to gain mass.

[MTG#10]

do you read this stuff or just post links. We get enough protein in our diets already to build muscle. If you don't have calories and carbs then you aren't going to gain mass.

So are you saying its impossible to lose belly fat and build mass at the same time? Its well known that all the sit ups and crunches in the world will not remove belly fat, only build the muscle underneath the fat. To remove fat you have to burn more calories than you take in. If you burn more calories than you take in according to your logic you cant build muscle. If this is true I have a problem. I really hate my gut but I really want to get bigger in the upper body. Am I going to have to pick between the two?

[googlegoogle]

So are you saying its impossible to lose belly fat and build mass at the same time? Its well known that all the sit ups and crunches in the world will not remove belly fat, only build the muscle underneath the fat. To remove fat you have to burn more calories than you take in. If you burn more calories than you take in according to your logic you cant build muscle. If this is true I have a problem. I really hate my gut but I really want to get bigger in the upper body. Am I going to have to pick between the two?


More calories than daily maintenance builds muscle when working out.

The fat in your stomach will get burned off through just aerobic excercise and you wont waste your muscle if you just lose pounds fast with fasting/dieting.

I fasted and lost 50lbs off my bench press. It sucked. yeah i lost weigh but i lost muscle.

Got to combine it with some weekly walking ,bicycling, aerobics to burn off the excess.

It sucks but thats the only way to do it naturally. Keep a log and try not to go overboard with the calories. just enough to build muscle. Google how many calories and pounds you should be gaining to build muscle.

[Silock]

do you read this stuff or just post links. We get enough protein in our diets already to build muscle. If you don't have calories and carbs then you aren't going to gain mass.

Of course I read it. EDIT: Do you even know what you highlighted? Insulin secretion is greater with carbs + protein. No shit. That's why I put dextrose in my post-workout shakes. But insulin doesn't actually build muscle. What it does is make it easier for your muscles to absorb protein and energy. And yes, they both have nitrogen sparing effects . . . big whoop. That doesn't mean that protein isn't necessary for muscle growth. Again, I've provided more than enough evidence that prove me right. Go ahead and post some evidence to prove me wrong. You can't, because 1) you're too lazy, and 2) it doesn't exist. Still waiting on your proof, body fat%, height and weight. Do tell.

And the debate isn't about whether or not you need carbs. You absolutely do. You need carbs for energy, and everyone has been saying that. What YOU said is that protein does not build muscle, which is patently false. The links above prove it. Protein breaks down into amino acids, which are used to build muscle. And the more active you are, the more protein you need, as evidenced by the above studies.

Carbohydrates simply do not break down into amino acids. So, where is the substrate for muscle growth coming from? Protein. And you need it.

So, you are wrong. As usual.

[Silock]

So are you saying its impossible to lose belly fat and build mass at the same time? Its well known that all the sit ups and crunches in the world will not remove belly fat, only build the muscle underneath the fat. To remove fat you have to burn more calories than you take in. If you burn more calories than you take in according to your logic you cant build muscle. If this is true I have a problem. I really hate my gut but I really want to get bigger in the upper body. Am I going to have to pick between the two?

Stop asking that dumbshit. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

You absolutely do not have to pick. Your body will respond.

Disclaimer: Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken and you're just trying to call him out. In which case, carry on!

[beach tribe]

Of course I read it. EDIT: Do you even know what you highlighted? Insulin secretion is greater with carbs + protein. No shit. That's why I put dextrose in my post-workout shakes. But insulin doesn't actually build muscle. What it does is make it easier for your muscles to absorb protein and energy. And yes, they both have nitrogen sparing effects . . . big whoop. That doesn't mean that protein isn't necessary for muscle growth. Again, I've provided more than enough evidence that prove me right. Go ahead and post some evidence to prove me wrong. You can't, because 1) you're too lazy, and 2) it doesn't exist. Still waiting on your proof, body fat%, height and weight. Do tell.

And the debate isn't about whether or not you need carbs. You absolutely do. You need carbs for energy, and everyone has been saying that. What YOU said is that protein does not build muscle, which is patently false. The links above prove it. Protein breaks down into amino acids, which are used to build muscle. And the more active you are, the more protein you need, as evidenced by the above studies.

Carbohydrates simply do not break down into amino acids. So, where is the substrate for muscle growth coming from? Protein. And you need it.

So, you are wrong. As usual.

Oh yeah. You absolutely need protein to build any kind of muscle. The more muscle he builds the more fat he will burn during workouts as well. If he wants to loose that belly, all I can say is he's gonna have to work his ass off, but if he puts in the work, it's not that hard to do.

[BigCatDaddy]

Of course I read it. EDIT: Do you even know what you highlighted? Insulin secretion is greater with carbs + protein. No shit. That's why I put dextrose in my post-workout shakes. But insulin doesn't actually build muscle. What it does is make it easier for your muscles to absorb protein and energy. And yes, they both have nitrogen sparing effects . . . big whoop. That doesn't mean that protein isn't necessary for muscle growth. Again, I've provided more than enough evidence that prove me right. Go ahead and post some evidence to prove me wrong. You can't, because 1) you're too lazy, and 2) it doesn't exist. Still waiting on your proof, body fat%, height and weight. Do tell.

And the debate isn't about whether or not you need carbs. You absolutely do. You need carbs for energy, and everyone has been saying that. What YOU said is that protein does not build muscle, which is patently false. The links above prove it. Protein breaks down into amino acids, which are used to build muscle. And the more active you are, the more protein you need, as evidenced by the above studies.

Carbohydrates simply do not break down into amino acids. So, where is the substrate for muscle growth coming from? Protein. And you need it.

So, you are wrong. As usual.


LMAO I tried to warn you.

[googlegoogle]

Of course I read it. EDIT: Do you even know what you highlighted? Insulin secretion is greater with carbs + protein. No shit. That's why I put dextrose in my post-workout shakes. But insulin doesn't actually build muscle. What it does is make it easier for your muscles to absorb protein and energy. And yes, they both have nitrogen sparing effects . . . big whoop. That doesn't mean that protein isn't necessary for muscle growth. Again, I've provided more than enough evidence that prove me right. Go ahead and post some evidence to prove me wrong. You can't, because 1) you're too lazy, and 2) it doesn't exist. Still waiting on your proof, body fat%, height and weight. Do tell.

And the debate isn't about whether or not you need carbs. You absolutely do. You need carbs for energy, and everyone has been saying that. What YOU said is that protein does not build muscle, which is patently false. The links above prove it. Protein breaks down into amino acids, which are used to build muscle. And the more active you are, the more protein you need, as evidenced by the above studies.

Carbohydrates simply do not break down into amino acids. So, where is the substrate for muscle growth coming from? Protein. And you need it.

So, you are wrong. As usual.


I said calories and a good diet build muscle. I said you don't need high protein diets because you get most of the protein that you need from an American diet.

Most of the models and bodybuilder advertising those diets are using steroids in the magazines.

[Time's Yours]

I said calories and a good diet build muscle. I said you don't need high protein diets because you get most of the protein that you need from an American diet.

Actually you did say, and have said before, that any calories are fine for building muscle.

There is zero research showing protein builds muscle. Muscle is mostly water.

Calories/energy needed for the body make muscle. google it.


All the research i have read says it's calories and not protein.

[wild1]

good lord... go talk to your doctor... there is as much bad advice as good in this thread

[Silock]

I said calories and a good diet build muscle. I said you don't need high protein diets because you get most of the protein that you need from an American diet.

Most of the models and bodybuilder advertising those diets are using steroids in the magazines.

No, you didn't, as has been proven above. Regardless, I still posted multiple sources that say you're completely wrong. The less active you are, the less protein you need. Conversely, the more active you are, the more you need.

And what do models and bodybuilders have to do with anything? Just because they're on steroids doesn't mean that the high-protein diets are wrong for everyone else . . . the research proves that to be true. Conveniently ignored by you, though.

Still waiting on your height, weight and bf% numbers.

[wild1]

Because I know there is a community around here trying to lose weight:


Remember when the FDA put out warnings about weight loss drugs in January?

They're back! With a very stern warning about liver damage and other problems due to Hydroxycut.

According to the FDA press release, "reports of serious health problems ranging from jaundice and elevated liver enzymes, an indicator of potential liver injury, to liver damage requiring liver transplant. One death due to liver failure has been reported to the FDA. Other health problems reported include seizures; cardiovascular disorders; and rhabdomyolysis, a type of muscle damage that can lead to other serious health problems such as kidney failure."

On the recall list are all Hydroxycut products except its cleanse and hoodia products.

If you have any of these Hydroxycut products on hand, you are urged to stop taking them, and to return the unused product to your point of purchase.

Hydroxycut has agreed to the recall and is updating its website with current information.

Further, the FDA urges consumers to continue reporting adverse events so they can track problems. You can do that at the FDA's MedWatch.

[googlegoogle]

Actually you did say, and have said before, that any calories are fine for building muscle.

I meant high protein.

[BigCatDaddy]

I meant high protein.

So now you admit a higher amount of protein is more beneficial to muscle growth after months of being a douche?

[Kyle DeLexus]

So now you admit a higher amount of protein is more beneficial to muscle growth after months of being a douche?

I have a feeling he's still being a douche and is saying that he meant you don't need high protein just normal diet. Personally, I'll trust the research that suggests getting high protein. Not too mention if the average person tracked their food intake they might not be getting the RDA of protein. I'm overweight and didn't have sufficient caloric intake and all three protein, fats, and carbs were low. I am trying to change and start getting closer to 2000 a day.

[wild1]

So now you admit a higher amount of protein is more beneficial to muscle growth after months of being a douche?

i think he was always saying that you get plenty in your diet already and taking extra isn't going to help you bulk up.

which of course is preposterous, but I think that was his point.