Top 5 NBA players ever

[OctoberFart]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?

[MIAdragon]

you forgot Jordan and Oscar Robertson

[Sure-Oz]

No MJ?

[Jim Jones]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?

This list is clearly racist.

[RealSNR]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?You forgot to put all the great players on your list.

[Sure-Oz]

Maybe he meant to say greatest white players of the NBA

[banyon]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

[DeezNutz]

Where are all the white guys, though?

[Mr. Arrowhead]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Oscar Robinson
5. Bill Russell

[Mr. Kotter]

Maybe he meant to say greatest white players of the NBA


If he did, he forgot to include Greg Ostertag.

Heh.

[MatriculatingHank]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

These 5 players in their prime would beat ANY team of ANY period.

[jeffery]

Uhm...kobe,bron bron,peirce, nash, and howard is todays top five
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[Buehler445]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

I think this is what it has to be.
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[Skip Towne]

I have yet to bring myself to care. Never been to an NBA game never will.

[Just Passin' By]

Any list of this sort that doesn't have Russell as #1 is a list not worth making.

[Tribal Warfare]

1) Bill Russell
2) Larry Bird
3) Michael Jordan
4) Elgin Baylor
5)Wilt Chamberlain

[KCCHIEFS27]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

This..except I replace Chamberlain with Kareem.

[SPATCH]

anyone who doesn't think michael jordan is the greatest of all time can suck it...

[BigMeatballDave]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?
No Jordan? LMAO You are retarded.

[MIAdragon]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

Wilt Chamberlain was a horrible shooter, he was a volume scorer he took 30-40 shots a night to get his points.

[eazyb81]

It's so funny how Oscar Robertson is so easily left out of greatest player conversations. The guy's stats are jaw-dropping; he averaged a g-damn triple double for an entire season! He is criminally underrated by most fans.

1. MJ (duh)
2. Oscar
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell

[MIAdragon]

It's so funny how Oscar Robertson is so easily left out of greatest player conversations. The guy's stats are jaw-dropping; he averaged a g-damn triple double for an entire season! He is criminally underrated by most fans.

1. MJ (duh)
2. Oscar
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell

See post #2

He missed another triple double season by one-tenth of a rebound per game.

[Basileus777]

1) Jordan
2) Wilt
3) Kareem
4) Russell
5) Magic
6) Bird
7) Shaq
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) West

Oscar being top 5 is way too high. He was never even the best player on a championship team. He averaged a triple-double, but he did it in a league where the pace where insanely higher.

[banyon]

Any list of this sort that doesn't have Russell as #1 is a list not worth making.

Russell was the greatest team player ever. That's why he's on the list. 12 rings is no joke. But Jordan and 4 bums could beat most teams.

[banyon]

Wilt Chamberlain was a horrible shooter, he was a volume scorer he took 30-40 shots a night to get his points.

Are you joking? Chamberlain has one of the highest career FG%'s among the top 20 scorers. It wasn't like he was Antoine Walker jacking up bricks from 40 feet out or something. If he did miss, he also rebounded at a ridiculous clip, so that has to be factored in too.

He was so dominant, that teams had to have whole game plans and they even changed the rules once or twice around him.

[banyon]

It's so funny how Oscar Robertson is so easily left out of greatest player conversations. The guy's stats are jaw-dropping; he averaged a g-damn triple double for an entire season! He is criminally underrated by most fans.

1. MJ (duh)
2. Oscar
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell

He's top 10 probably, but #2?

[Spott]

The top five that I've seen are MJ, Magic, Kareem, Bird and Hakeem, but I'm not old enough to have seen Oscar, Wilt, West, etc play. There's probably some that I've left off but I can think of about 20 guys off hand that are better than 4 of the 5 on AutumnGas's list.

[RJ]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?



Your team seems to pale in comparison to some of the others.

[eazyb81]

1) Jordan
2) Wilt
3) Kareem
4) Russell
5) Magic
6) Bird
7) Shaq
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) West

Oscar being top 5 is way too high. He was never even the best player on a championship team. He averaged a triple-double, but he did it in a league where the pace where insanely higher.

Wow, biased at all towards your own generation's players? I don't care if Oscar has 10 rings or 0, he was an outstanding player. It's not his fault he had the bad luck of playing in the era where the Celtics dominated.

Do you seriously think that if Oscar and Bird played one on one when they were both in their prime, Bird would win? I sure as hell don't.

[Basileus777]

Wilt Chamberlain was a horrible shooter, he was a volume scorer he took 30-40 shots a night to get his points.

He shot excellent percentages in an era where fg % was lower. And you can't compare shot attempts from the 60s with today without taking pace into account. Wilt took a lot of shots, but it was inflated because the 60s and 70s were crazy in terms of pace.

[Basileus777]

Wow, biased at all towards your own generation's players? I don't care if Oscar has 10 rings or 0, he was an outstanding player. It's not his fault he had the bad luck of playing in the era where the Celtics dominated.

Do you seriously think that if Oscar and Bird played one on one when they were both in their prime, Bird would win? I sure as hell don't.

What does one-on-one have to do with anything? It's irrelevant. Oscar was a great player and I'd put him at #11, but he was a point guard that didn't have the success or the impact on the game that the other players I listed ahead of him had.

The list isn't biased toward any generation. The list is dominated by big men because they are the most important players in basketball.

[eazyb81]

What does one-on-one have to do with anything? It's irrelevant. Oscar was a great player and I'd put him at #11, but he was a point guard that didn't have the success or the impact on the game that the other players I listed ahead of him had.

The list isn't biased toward any generation. The list is dominated by big men because they are the most important players in basketball.

Wow. Seriously? Evaluating players on who would win in a one-on-one contest is "irrelevant" when attempting to rank the all-time greatest individual players? Now I've heard it all on here.

You should have Will Perdue and Mark Madsen higher on your list, bud. They have a mad assortment of rings.

[Basileus777]

Wow. Seriously? Evaluating players on who would win in a one-on-one contest is "irrelevant" when attempting to rank the all-time greatest individual players? Now I've heard it all on here.

It's irrelevant because last time I checked NBA basketball was a team game. If you want to rank players by who would win in a pick-up game...well..have fun with that. Maybe Rafer Alston is better than Wilt.

You should have Will Perdue and Mark Madsen higher on your list, bud. They have a mad assortment of rings.

Laughable strawman is laughable.

[RJ]

Earl Monroe would have beaten Oscar in a game of one on one.

Earl Monroe would have beaten Superman in a game of one on one.

[RNR]

To leave Jordan off is rather strange as is Marovich and Stockton being on it

[RNR]

Earl Monroe would have beaten Oscar in a game of one on one.

Earl Monroe would have beaten Superman in a game of one on one.

If it is a one on one list, Connie Hawkins and non pro Earl the goat would be up there.

[Stewie]

Players du jour. Wilt changed the game and the rules were changed. MJ was all hype. Once established in the NBA he was allowed a running start at the hoop. It was unbearable to watch the shit the refs let him get away with. Bird/Magic... AWESOME. Julius Erving brought athletics/ballet into the game and it has never looked back. No one has emulated Dr. J since. They're all wannabes.

[Just Passin' By]

Russell was the greatest team player ever. That's why he's on the list. 12 rings is no joke. But Jordan and 4 bums could beat most teams.

Look, I'm not saying Jordan wasn't a hell of a player, but the 80's teams (Sixers/Celtics/Lakers) had to play each other year after year. Jordan & Company got to face the Jazz. Jordan couldn't win until the Celtics, Lakers and Pistons got old and injured. G.O.A.T. is a subjective thing, so I don't worry about it too much. I figure if you're in the top 3 ever at your position, you're a hell of a player.

Russell
Chamberlain
Jabbar

McHale
Malone
Duncan

Bird
Erving
Baylor

Jordan
West
Bryant

Robertson
Johnson
Stockton/Cousy/Thomas

My top 5 overall, for what it's worth, would be

Russell
Chamberlain
Bird
Jabbar
Jordan

[MIAdragon]

Are you joking? Chamberlain has one of the highest career FG%'s among the top 20 scorers. It wasn't like he was Antoine Walker jacking up bricks from 40 feet out or something. If he did miss, he also rebounded at a ridiculous clip, so that has to be factored in too.

He was so dominant, that teams had to have whole game plans and they even changed the rules once or twice around him.

Nope, he had a career free-throw percentage was 51.1% and if he wasn't close enough to the basket to dunk it he was SOL.

Do you think Shaq is a good shooter?

[Basileus777]

Nope, he had a career free-throw percentage was 51.1% and if he wasn't close enough to the basket to dunk it he was SOL.

Do you think Shaq is a good shooter?

You can't compare fg% across eras like that, Wilt was one of the most efficient players of his era. Hell, he shot 54% for his career and still has the record for fg% in a season with 73%. And Wilt wasn't Shaq, he had a 15-foot jumper and could hit fallaways on the baseline.

[RJ]

If it is a one on one list, Connie Hawkins and non pro Earl the goat would be up there.


When I was a kid in Baltimore there was a really great high school player there named Skip Wise. He threw it all away cause he liked drugs and cause he was a street kid from a pretty rough part of town. Anyway, he was supposed to be a pretty awesome one on one player. This article is written from an interesting perspective, good read for anyone with a few minutes to kill.

http://hoopshype.com/articles/greatest_ferranti.htm

[banyon]

Nope, he had a career free-throw percentage was 51.1% and if he wasn't close enough to the basket to dunk it he was SOL.

Do you think Shaq is a good shooter?

Well, you originally posted about him chucking up a bunch of bad shots. You're moving the goalposts now and have shifted to Free Throws. No one thnks he was a good FT shooter, but that's a very different argument. If Wilt was a good free throw shooter, he'd probably be #1 on the list.

[MIAdragon]

Well, you originally posted about him chucking up a bunch of bad shots. You're moving the goalposts now and have shifted to Free Throws. No one thnks he was a good FT shooter, but that's a very different argument. If Wilt was a good free throw shooter, he'd probably be #1 on the list.

his FG% was not much better at 54% either. Ok so maybe calling him a poor shooter was a little much.

[Jenson71]

Moses Malone
Dikembe Mutumbo
Manute Bol
Luol Deng
Julius Erving

[Mr. Kotter]

Moses Malone


Top 10? Nah.

[Just Passin' By]

his FG% was not much better at 54% either. Ok so maybe calling him a poor shooter was a little much.

FG% for players of vastly different decades is a bit of a tough basis for comparison if you don't make adjustments:

1959-60, Wilt Chamberlain's rookie year, saw the league shoot above 40% for the first time and never look back; Wilt would be the first significant NBA player to shoot 50% the following year.

http://www.baseballcrank.com/archives2/2004/08/basketball_shoo.php

[Miles]

his FG% was not much better at 54% either. Ok so maybe calling him a poor shooter was a little much.

So that isn't a damn good FG%.

[RNR]

When I was a kid in Baltimore there was a really great high school player there named Skip Wise. He threw it all away cause he liked drugs and cause he was a street kid from a pretty rough part of town. Anyway, he was supposed to be a pretty awesome one on one player. This article is written from an interesting perspective, good read for anyone with a few minutes to kill.

http://hoopshype.com/articles/greatest_ferranti.htm

Good read. Wichita had a kid named Ricky Ross that played at South High. He bounced around several colleges and finished at Tulsa. He was unreal in high school. I have heard he struggled with drugs, something happened. He never made the NBA.

[Miles]

Any list of this sort that doesn't have Russell as #1 is a list not worth making.

I would think #1 would have more of an offensive game.

[RNR]

Moses Malone
Dikembe Mutumbo
Manute Bol
Luol Deng
Julius Erving

Your understanding of basketball is right on par with you politics :)

[Mr. Kotter]

Moses Malone
Dikembe Mutumbo
Manute Bol
Luol Deng
Julius Erving

:spock:


You have to be kidding.....Erving and Malone are the only ones in the conversation, and not for long.

Top 50? Maybe. Top 25? Probably not even.

Your understanding of basketball is right on par with you politics :)

Heh. He'll outgrow both. Probably. LMAO

[Quesadilla Joe]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Oscar Robinson
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. Wilt Chamberlin
6. Larry Bird

[Quesadilla Joe]

Any list of this sort that doesn't have Russell as #1 is a list not worth making.

Man Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlin would not dominate playing against Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, and Shaq.

Russel and Chamberlin played against 6'6'' white boys. They were great for their era, but wouldn't be nearly as good against better competition.

[Just Passin' By]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Oscar Robinson
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. Wilt Chamberlin
6. Larry Bird

Man Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlin would not dominate playing against Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, and Shaq.

Russel and Chamberlin played against 6'6'' white boys. They were great for their era, but wouldn't be nearly as good against better competition.

Ummm..... I think your list followed by this posted comment says it all, so I'll just leave it there.

[milkman]

Nope, he had a career free-throw percentage was 51.1% and if he wasn't close enough to the basket to dunk it he was SOL.

Do you think Shaq is a good shooter?

You clearly never saw Wilt play and haven't a fucking clue.

[Quesadilla Joe]

Ummm..... I think your list followed by this posted comment says it all, so I'll just leave it there.

Oscar's style would fit in very well now. He wasn't a center. And he didn't have a 6 inch advantage over his competition like Russell and Chamberlain did.

And Chamberlin had a much better offensive game than Russell had, and he had rare athleticism for a big guy. Only David Robinson and Akeem were as agile as Chamberlain was.

I know i know... Russell has like 11 rings and Chamberlain has none but Chamberlain could play in any era and still be great.

[Stewie]

The Michael Jordan BS is sickening. The NBA was suffering and needed a new hero. The Bird/Magic era needed a bridge. MJ was mediocre at the start and then Bird/Magic started to fade.

"We need to improve ratings."
"Yeah, I've heard this Michael Jordan guy can play."
"Can we build interest around him?"
"We can turn good into great, I'll talk to the officiating crews."
"EXCELLENT!!!"
"Good. Michael Jordan, right?"
"Yeah."
"And who is he?"
"Our savior."
"I was hoping for someone more legitimate."
"Look! We're the NBA, it's the 80s, and we're sucking balls."
"OH! That Michael Jordan! I get it now."
"I knew you would."
"So what's our agreement with the officials?"
"It's not traveling if Michael's pivot foot moves less than five feet."
"Got it. That's easy."
"He's also allowed to pick up his dribble at the top of the key and run to the basket.
"What? Oh wait, I get it. We want a poster child."
"You're exactly right! We want everyone moving in the same direction... except for the guy who takes a charge and MJ gets free throws."
"Man, you guys are smart."
"Yep, and the brain dead fans won't know anything is amiss."
"Do we have control over their minds and wallets?"
"Of course! We invent heroes and they give us money and unmittigated bulletin board fodder defending what we tell them!"
"MJ is the best ever!"
"Uh, yeah, it pays my bills."

[Just Passin' By]

Oscar's style would fit in very well now. He wasn't a center. And he didn't have a 6 inch advantage over his competition like Russell and Chamberlain did.

And Chamberlin had a much better offensive game than Russell had, and he had rare athleticism for a big guy. Only David Robinson and Akeem were as agile as Chamberlain was.

I know i know... Russell has like 11 rings and Chamberlain has none but Chamberlain could play in any era and still be great.

Lousy logic, to put it kindly.

[milkman]

Ummm..... I think your list followed by this posted comment says it all, so I'll just leave it there.

The other thing that people forget is that Wilt was a great passer.

After being roundly critisized for being a selfish player, he went on to lead the league in assists the following year.

[Quesadilla Joe]

Lousy logic, to put it kindly.

The NBA CREATED new rules just to STOP Wilt Chamberlain. How many players were that dominant?

Bill Russel would be nothing more than a great defensive player and rebounder if he played against Shaq, Kareem, Olajuwan, Robinson, and Duncan.

[Quesadilla Joe]

The other thing that people forget is that Wilt was a great passer.

After being roundly critisized for being a selfish player, he went on to lead the league in assists the following year.

Yeah ROFL

He actually passed up on shots on purpose just so he could do that.:)

He really could do anything he wanted.

[Mr. Kotter]

The Michael Jordan BS is sickening. The NBA was suffering and needed a new hero. The Bird/Magic era needed a bridge. MJ was mediocre at the start and then Bird/Magic started to fade.

"We need to improve ratings."
"Yeah, I've heard this Michael Jordan guy can play."
"Can we build interest around him?"
"We can turn good into great, I'll talk to the officiating crews."
"EXCELLENT!!!"
"Good. Michael Jordan, right?"
"Yeah."
"And who is he?"
"Our savior."
"I was hoping for someone more legitimate."
"Look! We're the NBA, it's the 80s, and we're sucking balls."
"OH! That Michael Jordan! I get it now."
"I knew you would."
"So what's our agreement with the officials?"
"It's not traveling if Michael's pivot foot moves less than five feet."
"Got it. That's easy."
"He's also allowed to pick up his dribble at the top of the key and run to the basket.
"What? Oh wait, I get it. We want a poster child."
"You're exactly right! We want everyone moving in the same direction... except for the guy who takes a charge and MJ gets free throws."
"Man, you guys are smart."
"Yep, and the brain dead fans won't know anything is amiss."
"Do we have control over their minds and wallets?"
"Of course! We invent heroes and they give us money and unmittigated bulletin board fodder defending what we tell them!"
"MJ is the best ever!"
"Uh, yeah, it pays my bills."

:spock:

You gotta be joking, right?

That or you were high as a kite during those Bulls Championships and his superman antics. :shake:

You can argue about whether he's THE best ever, but top 10....no doubt about it.

[DeezNutz]

Moses Malone
Dikembe Mutumbo
Manute Bol
Luol Deng
Julius Erving

This is a completely serious list and in no way a parody of the OP.

Fantastic work. All superstar players, indeed.

[milkman]

:spock:

You gotta be joking, right?

That or you were high as a kite during those Bulls Championships and his superman antics. :shake:

You can argue about whether he's THE best ever, but top 10....no doubt about it.

He is a little over the top, but he has a point.

There were some rules, like traveling that were.....uh......relaxed for MJ.

[Just Passin' By]

The other thing that people forget is that Wilt was a great passer.

After being roundly critisized for being a selfish player, he went on to lead the league in assists the following year.

And Russell was top 10 in assists (and assists per game) 4 times. He's 87th in total assists all-time and Wilt is 60th. People from today's era ignore far too much of the game's history to even really know what they are talking about.

I also love the "but the players in general are better" argument, because it takes so much into assumptions. Imagine Wilt on today's weight training schedule, or Jordan with the lack thereof and with the poorer sneakers of the 60's. I also love the size argument, because I'm pretty sure that Barkley's considered one of the top 5 power forwards of all time, and I believe he claims to actually be about 6'4 3/4".

[Basileus777]

Man Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlin would not dominate playing against Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, and Shaq.

Russel and Chamberlin played against 6'6'' white boys. They were great for their era, but wouldn't be nearly as good against better competition.

Here are the starting Cs of 1962 with their listed heights and weights. Everyone is measured barefoot or in socks; all but Wilt have college weights listed.

Walt Bellamy 6'11", 225; Clyde Lovelette 6'9", 234; Walter Dukes 7'0", 220; Wayne Embry 6'8", 240; Jim Krebs 6'8", 230; Darrell Imhoff 6'10", 220; Red Kerr 6'9", 230; Wilt Chamberlian 7'1", 275; Bill Russell 6'9", 215

That's an average height of 6'10" without shoes. To give you an idea how how tall that is, here are some players that were measured at exactly 6'10" in socks at NBA combines:

LaMarcus Aldridge, Nazr Mohammed, P.J. Brown, Kwame Brown, DeSagana Diop

To go a bit further--

Tony Battie, Channing Frye, Antonio McDyess, Alonzo Mourning, Rasheed Wallace and Troy Murphy measured *less* than that...between 6'9" and 6'10"

Adonal Foyle, Brian Grant, Amare Stoudemrie, Theo Ratliff and Emeka Okafor measured between 6'8" and 6'9"

The listed 1962 weights are pretty far off too. Wilt is actually overstated...he had said he played at about 250-260 in his first years. Gary Pomerantz lists him at 260 in his (excellent) book Wilt, 1962. Clyde Lovelette was described as closer to 300 than 250 in his final years in several sources...and his final year was 1964. According to Oscar, Wayne Embry was the shortest C in the league..at 6'8", and around 255-260 in his peak years. Most of the other players are probably around 10-15 pounds light in how they're listed. So, in modern measurements, the average starting C of 1962 is

6'11.275", 243 lbs.

So, really, I'd like to know. How are the NBA Cs Wilt and Russel faced undersized?



I just can't understand how people would think Wilt wouldn't dominate today, when Dwight Howard can be dominant mostly on athleticism.What if Dwight Howard were to grow 2 inches, pack on about 20-30 pounds of muscle, improve his defensive timing and instincts, develop a full array of post moves, a jumper out to 15 feet, and most of all being able to handle multiple defenders, possibly better than anyone in NBA history?

That would be scary right? Nah, that would just be Wilt.

Wilt would easily be the best player in the league today and Russell would be a dominant defender and rebounder winning DPOTY annually, someone who would anchor a championship defense.

[JuicesFlowing]

If AutumnWind ever has pos rep, I will kill myself. Hilarious thread. I hate basketball and even I know that Jordon should be in the top 2. Fucking hilarious, AW.

[Just Passin' By]

The NBA CREATED new rules just to STOP Wilt Chamberlain. How many players were that dominant?

Bill Russel would be nothing more than a great defensive player and rebounder if he played against Shaq, Kareem, Olajuwan, Robinson, and Duncan.

The match-ups between Russell and his era's other dominant center, Wilt Chamberlain, drew huge media and fan attention. Chamberlain usually led the league in scoring and won two championships, but when it came to crunch time, Russell's teams usually won. Eight times their teams faced each other in the playoffs; seven times Russell's team won.

It's really pretty easy to figure out. NBA basketball isn't one-on-one at the playground. Russell was the superior player, Chamberlain was the superior offensive force.

[Stewie]

:spock:

You gotta be joking, right?

That or you were high as a kite during those Bulls Championships and his superman antics. :shake:

You can argue about whether he's THE best ever, but top 10....no doubt about it.

What? Superman antics with an extra two steps and more? The NBA was looking for a marketing ploy and invented superman. MJ was the recipient and it was gobbled up by fans with an IQ below 90. Amazingly, there are lots of them.

[Mr. Kotter]

He is a little over the top, but he has a point.

There were some rules, like traveling that were.....uh......relaxed for MJ.

Agreed, that MJ's starpower created leiniency in some situations....but don't tell me the same couldn't be said for most, if not all, the players in the discussion. Wilt? Shaq? Bird? Magic? Hakeem? Ewing? Robinson? Robertson?

Heck, we are seeing it with Kobe and LaBron too...it goes with the territory, it seems IMHO.

[Mr. Kotter]

What? Superman antics with an extra two steps and more? The NBA was looking for a marketing ploy and invented superman. MJ was the recipient and it was gobbled up by fans with an IQ below 90. Amazingly, there are lots of them.

Please tell me that you are not suggesting many of the other stars don't get/didn't get.....similar treatment? :spock:

I agree MJ, got some perks; but so have/do the other stars.

So, are you a Celtics, Lakers, or Pistons sour-grapes fan? :hmmm:

:p

[Buehler445]

If AutumnWind ever has pos rep, I will kill myself. Hilarious thread. I hate basketball and even I know that Jordon should be in the top 2. Fucking hilarious, AW.

I think he was trying to stir the race pot.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Just Passin' By]

Please tell me that you are not suggesting many of the other stars don't get/didn't get.....similar treatment? :spock:

I agree MJ, got some perks; but so have/do the other stars.

So, are you a Celtics, Lakers, or Pistons sour-grapes fan? :hmmm:

:p

The league pretty much eliminated both traveling and palming for Jordan, along with allowing him to push off opponents with full stiff arms. Utah team that desperately wishes that last one wasn't true. You're right in that the NBA has often given the best players a bit of an edge, but it went completely into the tank for Jordan after the Pistons got old and faded away.

[RippedmyFlesh]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?
That's a good white best 5 ever.
Mine
1) Jordan
2) Chamberlin
3) Robertson
4) Magic
5) Bird

[Tribal Warfare]

Bill Russel would be nothing more than a great defensive player and rebounder if .

and he shut Wilt down on a constant basis, thus nuff said.

[milkman]

and he shut Wilt down on a constant basis, thus nuff said.

This is what I love about ****ing idiots.

They say shit and hope no one calls them out.

Wilt averaged more than 28 pts a game in 142 games against Russell.

He scored 50 or more points 7 times.

That's what you call shutting him down?

Shut the **** up dumbass.

[OctoberFart]

Honorable mention.....John Havlicek, Steve Nash, Rick Barry, Dave Cowen.

[Mr. Kotter]

Honorable mention.....John Havlicek, Steve Nash, Rick Barry, Dave Cowen.

Okay, Orval. We figured out you were intending to stoke the racial aspect of this....don't you have a "Second Life" session coming up? Run along.

[Tribal Warfare]

Shut the **** up dumbass.



That's inflated due to one game which Wilt scored 65, but besides that he scored an average of 22 points against Russell.

[milkman]

That's inflated due to one game which Wilt scored 65, but besides that he scored an average of 22 points against Russell.

Wilt averaged 28.7 points a game in 142 career games, including playoffs, against Russell.

Throw out that inflating 65 point performance in one game, and he still averaged 28.4 points a game for the remaining 141 games.

Dumbass.

[banyon]

And Russell was top 10 in assists (and assists per game) 4 times. He's 87th in total assists all-time and Wilt is 60th. People from today's era ignore far too much of the game's history to even really know what they are talking about.

I also love the "but the players in general are better" argument, because it takes so much into assumptions. Imagine Wilt on today's weight training schedule, or Jordan with the lack thereof and with the poorer sneakers of the 60's. I also love the size argument, because I'm pretty sure that Barkley's considered one of the top 5 power forwards of all time, and I believe he claims to actually be about 6'4 3/4".

Don't forget talent dilution as well. With fewer teams, there were no Bobcats or Grizzlies to beat up on.

[Basileus777]

Don't forget talent dilution as well. With fewer teams, there were no Bobcats or Grizzlies to beat up on.

Exactly, if you want to talk about competition, you can't forget about how few teams there were in the past.

So if you were say comparing Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq, here are the top one third Cs in each league...the players these guys would go against 25-30 times per year.

Wilt (3 Cs on 7/8 remaining teams)
1961--Russell, Kerr, Embry
1962--Russell, Bellamy, Kerr
1963--Russell, Bellamy, Kerr

Kareem (5 Cs on 16/17 remaining teams)
1972--Wilt, Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, Hayes
1973--Wilt, Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, Hayes
1975--Walton, McAdoo, Lanier, Cowens, Unseld

Shaq (9 Cs on 28 remaining teams)
2000--Mutombo, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, Divac, Sabonis, Ratliff, Brown, D. Davis
2001--Mutombo, Wallace, Robinson, Camby, Ratliff, A. Davis, Brown, Divac, LaFrentz,
2003--Wallace, Yao, Magloire, Ilgauskas, Amare, Robinson, Thomas, Grant, Brown

2000 is the only year that is even remotely close in competition...and that's largely an illusion. Robinson was sliding downhill; Ewing was farther down the slope. Sabonis was a part time player. I mean, I like P.J. Brown and think he's a quality PF/C...but he's not nearly as good as Red Kerr was, let alone Elvin Hayes or Wes Unseld.

And even if you adjust for pace, Shaq also put up lesser numbers against notably weaker competition at his position. He scored less (about even in Kareem's case), rebounded less, got fewer assists, and was a considerably worse defender than Wilt or Kareem. Putting everyone on an equal playing field of 97 points and 44 rebounds a game, the three best years of Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq look like this:

Wilt:
1961--41.5 ppg, 18.0 rpg, 2.4 apg
1962--38.3 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 3.4 apg
1963--32.3 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 5.0 apg

Kareem:
1972--30.0 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 4.6 apg
1973--27.2 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 5.0 apg
1975--28.4 ppg, 13.1 rpg, 4.1 apg

Shaq:
2000--29.6 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 3.8 apg
2001--29.4 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.7 apg
2003--28.0 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 3.1 apg

And, of course, defense extends the difference. Wilt wasn't as good of a defender in the early 60s as he would be later--but he was still outstanding, better than Shaq. Kareem was better than either in the early and mid 1970s. Durability? Shaq missed more games in his peak seasons than Wilt or Kareem. Length of peak? Wilt has a couple more high scoring years, as well as 2-3 years where, adjusted for pace, he basically was a 20-20-7.5 player shooting over 60% and was the best defensive player in the league. Kareem has many, many years that are equivalent to his third best year. Shaq is already dropping off after his second big season, and the slide continues.

If you actually take a more in depth look at things, it's pretty clear that the best players from the past stand up when compared with the players of any generation.

[Just Passin' By]

Don't forget talent dilution as well. With fewer teams, there were no Bobcats or Grizzlies to beat up on.

Well, there's a problem with the dilution argument, so I tend not to use it very much. It's true that there's a talent dilution but, on the other hand, there's also a larger talent pool to choose from. I figure that it generally evens out after the first few years of expansion, but I've never really seen any satisfactory data on the issue.

[teedubya]

It's so funny how Oscar Robertson is so easily left out of greatest player conversations. The guy's stats are jaw-dropping; he averaged a g-damn triple double for an entire season! He is criminally underrated by most fans.

1. MJ (duh)
2. Oscar
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell

I think Oscar Robertson is the greatest General Manager of all-time. Oh wait, nm.

[Skip Towne]

Wilt scored 65 points? Damn! He must have made a free throw.

[banyon]

Well, there's a problem with the dilution argument, so I tend not to use it very much. It's true that there's a talent dilution but, on the other hand, there's also a larger talent pool to choose from. I figure that it generally evens out after the first few years of expansion, but I've never really seen any satisfactory data on the issue.

Basileus does a pretty good job of laying that out I think.

[Jenson71]

:spock:


You have to be kidding.....Erving and Malone are the only ones in the conversation, and not for long.

Top 50? Maybe. Top 25? Probably not even.

No, those are the top five greatest players of all time. It's not even a serious debate.

Okay, actually I just tried to think of the blackest people in the NBA that I knew. And then I added Dr. J because of his afro.

[JD10367]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

I'd go with this one. Honorable mention for Doctor J, 'cause he helped change the game IMO.

Some day, maybe, Kobe and Lebron get added into this mix.

[Pioli Zombie]

This..except I replace Chamberlain with Kareem.

You are on drugs.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Pioli Zombie]

This is what I love about ****ing idiots.

They say shit and hope no one calls them out.

Wilt averaged more than 28 pts a game in 142 games against Russell.

He scored 50 or more points 7 times.

That's what you call shutting him down?

Shut the **** up dumbass.

Thank you!! Russell played with 6 hall of famers and never had to play offense. He didn't "shut down" Wilt. He just played on better teams.
Posted via Mobile Device

[KCChiefsMan]

ya, he's obviously being racist.

[88TG88]

Jerry West
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Kobe

[WildTurkey]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

Perfect List Right there :clap:

[Micjones]

It took 2 pages for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's name to be mentioned?
:cuss:

[Mr. Kotter]

It took 2 pages for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's name to be mentioned?
:cuss:

That's what the dude gets for changing his friggin' name; people have a hard time keepin' track....:cuss:



;)

[Mr. Kotter]

FTR, my top five:

1. Magic
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Wilt Chamberlin
4. Michael Jordan
5.a. Lew Alcindor (Kareem)
5.b. Larry Bird (token white)

[Basileus777]

It took 2 pages for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's name to be mentioned?
:cuss:

While 20 posts isn't all that long, it's probably because most people remember Kareem at the end of his long career instead of how dominant he was in the 70s.

[Dottefan]

I think he was trying to stir the race pot.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ding, ding ding..:clap:.and you win the bonus round. This must of been posted just to have people bring up race..:shake:

[Jenson71]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar was overrated.

How come no one has mentioned Lew Alcindor yet? He deserves to be top 5.

[KCCHIEFS27]

Kareem would abuse all of these big men being mentioned. The guy had THE toughest shot to defend in the history of basketball. He's in my starting 5.

[Tribal Warfare]

Wilt averaged 28.7 points a game in 142 career games, including playoffs, against Russell.

Throw out that inflating 65 point performance in one game, and he still averaged 28.4 points a game for the remaining 141 games.

Dumbass.

So sad too bad (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Wham!+Wake+me+up/video/x2aixj_wham-wake-me-up-before-you-gogo_music)

talk about high strung kids, dude you really need to get that bug out your ass

[svuba]

Wally Szczerbiak
Fred Hoiburg
Greg Ostertag
Adam Morrison
Brad Tinsley

[Quesadilla Joe]

Wally Szczerbiak
Fred Hoiburg
Greg Ostertag
Adam Morrison
Brad Tinsley

You forgot Rik Smits! :cuss:

[TEX]

Jordan
Bird
Magic
Chamberlin
Olajuwon

[milkman]

So sad too bad (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Wham!+Wake+me+up/video/x2aixj_wham-wake-me-up-before-you-gogo_music)

talk about high strung kids, dude you really need to get that bug out your ass

I'm sorry.

Your sheer unadulterated stupidity pisses me off.

And then you come back with this moronic crap, rather than admitting that you were wrong.

Dumbass.

[OctoberFart]

Wally Szczerbiak
Fred Hoiburg
Greg Ostertag
Adam Morrison
Brad Tinsley

BS! Mark Eaton is much better than those HOFers.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Magic
Kobe
Elgin
Kareem
Wilt


Worthy
Logo
Coop
Byron
Shaq

[Ebolapox]

hmmm. so many of the greats I never saw personally.

mike jordan (saw him, can't get over his greatness--I'm a bulls fan though)
wilt chamberlain
oscar robertson
kareem abdul jabbar
larry bird (he ran those 80's celtics teams)

[Pioli Zombie]

Kareem would abuse all of these big men being mentioned. The guy had THE toughest shot to defend in the history of basketball. He's in my starting 5.

Kareem did not abuse Wilt.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

I'm sorry.

Your sheer unadulterated stupidity pisses me off.



Yes, I concede that I was wromng, but have really expressed the traits of a surly asshole lately for no reason whatsoever. I've always tried to remain civil to everyone but you've made uncalled for comments to other posters by citing that they are a bitch ect...


It's the internet take a deep breath and chill out.

[milkman]

Yes, I concede that I was wromng, but have really expressed the traits of a surly asshole lately for no reason whatsoever. I've always tried to remain civil to everyone but you've made uncalled for comments to other posters by citing that they are a bitch ect...


It's the internet take a deep breath and chill out.

Lately?

I've always been a surly asshole.

[Pioli Zombie]

Lately?

I've always been a surly asshole.

This.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Skip Towne]

Lately?

I've always been a surly asshole.

And we love you for it. Some of these guys don't know they're dumbasses.

[HolyHandgernade]

Wilt should be number 1.
Led the League in:

Minutes played: 8 of 14 years
FG Made: 7 of 14 years
FG Attempted: 7 of 14 years
FG %: 9 of 14 years (including his last two years in the League)
Free Throws Made: 1 year ('61-'62)
Free Throws Attempted: 9 of 14 years
Rebounds: 11 of 14 years (including his last three as a pro)
Points: 7 of 14 years
RPG: 11 of 14 years
PPG: 7 of 14 years

Hall of Fame
Two NBA Championships
Finals MVP ('72)
NBA MVP ('60, '66, '67, '68)
All NBA:
1st Team: 7 times
2nd Team: 3 times
All Defensive Team ('72 and '73)
Rookie of the Year
One of 50 Greatest NBA players of all time

Only NBA player to score over 4000 points in a season
Only player to score 100 points in a single game
Most consecutive field goals in a single game (18)
Most rebounds in a single game (55)
Highest season PPG average (50.4 in '61-'62)
Highest Minutes per Game for a season (48.5 in '61-'62)
All time rebounds leader with 23,924
Retired as the All-Time points leader with 31,419 (Now 4th)
Games he scored 50+ points - 118, the all time record
Games he scored 40+ points...consecutively - 14, the all time record
Games he scored 30+ points...consecutively - 65, the all time record
Games he scored 20+ points...consecutively - 126, the all time record
Highest all time rookie scoring average: 37.6
Highest all time scoring % average: .727 (his final season)
It should be noted, second place for most of these records is very, very distant

Rule changes to minimize his dominance:

Widening the lane
Instituting offensive goal tending
Inbounding the ball
Freethrows (Wilt would jump from the free throw line and drop the ball in!)

Wilt's power was legendary, was one of a few players in history who could block dunks. During a fight, Wilt reached in to grab one of his players and picked him up like he was a sack full of feathers, a 6'8'' 220 pound sack of feathers. He wasn't just a heavy, he was coordinated and agile (a track star), he didn't play dirty and was sometimes criticized that he didn't get rougher against Robinson (said it wasn't his style). He wasn't just bigger and taller than the other players, he was better basketball player, not just a brute. Best all time in my opinion. You can probably answer almost any "all time" NBA trivia question with his name and be right over 2/3 of the time.

-HH

[tyton75]

Bird was awesome.. no question.. but top 5??

Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Olojuwan(sp), Jabbar, Robertson, Shaq??

[milkman]

Bird was awesome.. no question.. but top 5??

Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Olojuwan(sp), Jabbar, Robertson, Shaq??

I'd put Bird on the list before I'd put Barkley, Malone and Sahq.

Any top 5 has to include Wilt and MJ.

Any that doesn't is just useless.

[Tribal Warfare]

Lately?

I've always been a surly asshole.


At least you know that conjuncture

[milkman]

At least you know that conjuncture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TQByv_xkuc

I believe "surly" is an adjective, and "lately" is an adverb.

Where's the conjuncture?

[SPATCH]

The Michael Jordan BS is sickening. The NBA was suffering and needed a new hero. The Bird/Magic era needed a bridge. MJ was mediocre at the start and then Bird/Magic started to fade.

"We need to improve ratings."
"Yeah, I've heard this Michael Jordan guy can play."
"Can we build interest around him?"
"We can turn good into great, I'll talk to the officiating crews."
"EXCELLENT!!!"
"Good. Michael Jordan, right?"
"Yeah."
"And who is he?"
"Our savior."
"I was hoping for someone more legitimate."
"Look! We're the NBA, it's the 80s, and we're sucking balls."
"OH! That Michael Jordan! I get it now."
"I knew you would."
"So what's our agreement with the officials?"
"It's not traveling if Michael's pivot foot moves less than five feet."
"Got it. That's easy."
"He's also allowed to pick up his dribble at the top of the key and run to the basket.
"What? Oh wait, I get it. We want a poster child."
"You're exactly right! We want everyone moving in the same direction... except for the guy who takes a charge and MJ gets free throws."
"Man, you guys are smart."
"Yep, and the brain dead fans won't know anything is amiss."
"Do we have control over their minds and wallets?"
"Of course! We invent heroes and they give us money and unmittigated bulletin board fodder defending what we tell them!"
"MJ is the best ever!"
"Uh, yeah, it pays my bills."

kindly never speak to an NBA topic again, sir.

[TEX]

That's a good white best 5 ever.
Mine
1) Jordan
2) Chamberlin
3) Robertson
4) Magic
5) Bird

I'd agree with this list half the time. The other half, I'd replace Robertson with Olajuwon. Even Chamberlin marveled at Olajuwon.

[vailpass]

kindly never speak to an NBA topic again, sir.

Absolutely right. I thought maybe he was joking.

[milkman]

kindly never speak to an NBA topic again, sir.

Kindly shut the fuck up.

[J Diddy]

Kindly shut the **** up.

Are you not getting lubed up before whomever is shoving that rod up your ass?

I mean you've taken being a grade a dickhead to a whole new level.

You'd be on the top 5 for that list by anyone.

[milkman]

Are you not getting lubed up before whomever is shoving that rod up your ass?

I mean you've taken being a grade a dickhead to a whole new level.

You'd be on the top 5 for that list by anyone.

Wait.

I'm not #1.

I must try harder.

[J Diddy]

Wait.

I'm not #1.

I must try harder.


Well, you're well on your way if that finds you comfort.

The true question is longevity.

How long before your puckered up heart gives out.

[DJ's left nut]

I like trying to put together the best 5 man unit.

C - Shaq; sorry, but he'd whup Chamberlain's ass, Wilt made his bones picking on 6 footers. No, he couldn't shoot free throws, but people forget what a physical marvel Shaq was for a decade. Speed, footwork, strength and great touch in the paint for a big man.

PF - Russell; played center but he'd be a power forward in today's game. Dominant defender and rebounder, you'd never get a clean look at the basket with this frontcourt. With this much offensive talent there aren't enough balls for guys like Malone so you want a defensive stopper here.

SF - Magic; Bird's a contender here as Magic played more of a point-foward, but this is where Magic's size and vision helps to create the most mis-matches. He could be exploited by the smaller guards if listed as a true point. He has the strength to man up small forwards and the vision and all-around offensive game to absolutely abuse them.

SG - Jordan; nuff said

PG - Oscar Robertson; actually averaged a triple double from 1960 - 1965, fast pace or not, that's incredible. Ultimately I think a team with Magic/Robertson is better both offensively and defensively than one with Magic/Bird. Robertson's lateral quickness gives him the nod due to the edge you'd get from your perimeter defense.

[kcxiv]

Mine would be

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
West
Robertson

All around greats

Magic, Bird, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Olajuwan, Malone, Stockton, Russel

and i am sure you can put a few others in there, but my top 5 are up there.

[milkman]

I like trying to put together the best 5 man unit.

C - Shaq; sorry, but he'd whup Chamberlain's ass, Wilt made his bones picking on 6 footers. No, he couldn't shoot free throws, but people forget what a physical marvel Shaq was for a decade. Speed, footwork, strength and great touch in the paint for a big man.

Let me guess.

You're 26-27 years old.

[Halfcan]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?

how can you forget George Mikan off your ALL white list??

they had to change the freakin rules he was so unstoppable.

[Halfcan]

I like trying to put together the best 5 man unit.

C - Shaq; sorry, but he'd whup Chamberlain's ass, Wilt made his bones picking on 6 footers. No, he couldn't shoot free throws, but people forget what a physical marvel Shaq was for a decade. Speed, footwork, strength and great touch in the paint for a big man.

PF - Russell; played center but he'd be a power forward in today's game. Dominant defender and rebounder, you'd never get a clean look at the basket with this frontcourt. With this much offensive talent there aren't enough balls for guys like Malone so you want a defensive stopper here.

SF - Magic; Bird's a contender here as Magic played more of a point-foward, but this is where Magic's size and vision helps to create the most mis-matches. He could be exploited by the smaller guards if listed as a true point. He has the strength to man up small forwards and the vision and all-around offensive game to absolutely abuse them.

SG - Jordan; nuff said

PG - Oscar Robertson; actually averaged a triple double from 1960 - 1965, fast pace or not, that's incredible. Ultimately I think a team with Magic/Robertson is better both offensively and defensively than one with Magic/Bird. Robertson's lateral quickness gives him the nod due to the edge you'd get from your perimeter defense.

how many 100 point games did Shaq have?? :shake:

[Priest31kc]

1. Michael Jordan - best player ever
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5a. Oscar Robertson
5b. Bill Russel

[milkman]

1. Michael Jordan - best player ever


Wrong.

[SPATCH]

Kindly shut the **** up.

kindly tongue my anal sphincter, sir.... kindly

[Saccopoo]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
- Still holds 39 NBA records. Scored 100 points in a game. Grabbed 55 rebounds in a game - against Bill Russell. Led the league in assists (something Jordan never did as a two guard). Averaged 55 points a game for an entire season. NBA started keeping blocked shot records the day Wilt retired. And Wilt did it night in and night out against Hall of Fame centers. How many Hall of Fame two guards did Jordan go against? No one, and I literally mean NO ONE, will ever be as good as Wilt. Ever. When the sun swallows the earth three billion years from now, Wilt will still be the best basketball player in history.

2. Oscar Robertson
- The most versatile player the NBA has ever seen. Averaged a triple double for a season. LeBron James is a poor man's Big O.

3. Bill Russell
- 11 NBA championships. 'Nuff said.

4. Michael Jordan
- Maybe the six championships had a bit to do with Phil Jackson's coaching, but Jordan was clutch and made the big plays time and time again. Best scorer the NBA has seen since Wilt, and dominated his position in his era.

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
- All time NBA scoring leader, ton of rings, a bunch of MVP awards, etc.

Top 20: 6. John Stockton, 7. Larry Bird, 8. Jerry West, 9. Pete Maravich, 10. Bob Cousy, 11. Magic Johnson, 12. Karl Malone, 13. Bob Pettit, 14. Shaquille O'Neal, 15. John Havlicek, 16. Tim Duncan, 16. Kobe Bryant, 17. Wes Unseld, 18. Elgin Baylor, 19. Hakeem Olajuwon, 20. Julius Erving

[stevieray]

these lists are funny..it's like naming your five favorite cars. paintings, etc...it's all subjective.

[Priest31kc]

these lists are funny..it's like naming your five favorite cars. paintings, etc...it's all subjective.

I agree.

[kcxiv]

these lists are funny..it's like naming your five favorite cars. paintings, etc...it's all subjective.

yep, but Jordan has to be the best player ever imo. I dont see how that is subjective.

Jordan 1
then everyone else 2nd, but people will think how they want

[Pioli Zombie]

Anyone who lists Barkley, Malone, Stockton or Olajuwon over Larry Bird needs to sit their ass down.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Amnorix]

Russell was the greatest team player ever. That's why he's on the list. 12 rings is no joke. But Jordan and 4 bums could beat most teams.

11 rings in 13 NBA seasons.

2 NCAA championshisp, and a gold medal.

A total of 14 championships in 15 seasons of basketball, starting when he was a junior in college. Sick.

[Amnorix]

Do you seriously think that if Oscar and Bird played one on one when they were both in their prime, Bird would win? I sure as hell don't.

Since when is basketball a one on one game?

By this standard, Russell doesn't even make the top 10...

[Amnorix]

Man Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlin would not dominate playing against Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, and Shaq.

Russel and Chamberlin played against 6'6'' white boys. They were great for their era, but wouldn't be nearly as good against better competition.


:rolleyes:

[Amnorix]

Oscar's style would fit in very well now. He wasn't a center. And he didn't have a 6 inch advantage over his competition like Russell and Chamberlain did.

And Chamberlin had a much better offensive game than Russell had, and he had rare athleticism for a big guy. Only David Robinson and Akeem were as agile as Chamberlain was.

I know i know... Russell has like 11 rings and Chamberlain has none but Chamberlain could play in any era and still be great.

You don't even understand your history.

Russell was really the first player to take the game above the rim. He was ungodly athletic. And you can say Wilt was athletic -- and he was -- but he was Goliath. Strongest guy in teh NBA by far. Picture Dwight Howard but give him two more inches of height (for comparison to other NBA players of thes ame era) and give him DAvid Robinson's agility.

Both Chamberlain and Russell could play in any era and be great.

[ChiTown]

In no particular order

MJ - Mr. Clutch

Bill Russell - Mr. Defender

Wilt Chamberlain - Mr. Game Changer

Oscar Robertson - Mr. All-Around

Pete Maravich - Mr. Scorer

[ChiTown]

Wrong.

No, that would be RIGHT:)

[Amnorix]

Wilt would easily be the best player in the league today and Russell would be a dominant defender and rebounder winning DPOTY annually, someone who would anchor a championship defense.

This.

[Amnorix]

and he shut Wilt down on a constant basis, thus nuff said.

I'm a Celtics fan, and a complete Homer for Russ. I've read all of Russ's books, even.

And this just ain't true. I think Wilt once scored 60 on Russ.

[ChiTown]

My 6-10

Kareem A-J

Larry Bird

Jerry West

John Stockton

Magic Johnson

[ChiTown]

I'm a Celtics fan, and a complete Homer for Russ. I've read all of Russ's books, even.

And this just ain't true. I think Wilt once scored 60 on Russ.

That WAS shutting Wilt down

:)

The battles between Wilt and Russell were epic. I wish I could have seen them live.

[Amnorix]

Thank you!! Russell played with 6 hall of famers and never had to play offense. He didn't "shut down" Wilt. He just played on better teams.
Posted via Mobile Device

Don't oversimplify. The '69 Lakers were almost certainly more talented than the Celtics of that year with Russ and Sam Jones retiring after that year as old geezers.

I honestly think that Russ had more killer instinctive and competitive desire than just about anyone ever. His teams beat Wilt's teams in every way and it wasn't always taht the Celtics obviously had better talent.

[EyePod]

I always found it crazy that either Horry or Kerr were on 12 out of 14 championship teams through the 93-94 season to the 02-03 season, and Horry has 7 championships (and he wasn't a 60's Celtic). That's crazy shit right there. I wouldn't put him in any top 5 list, but I think he's one of my favorite non-important-but-still-kind-of-important players.

[EyePod]

Don't oversimplify. The '69 Lakers were almost certainly more talented than the Celtics of that year with Russ and Sam Jones retiring after that year as old geezers.

I honestly think that Russ had more killer instinctive and competitive desire than just about anyone ever. His teams beat Wilt's teams in every way and it wasn't always taht the Celtics obviously had better talent.

I'm sure that's coming from an unbiased perspective... Go back to your old money and stupid accents. ;)

[loochy]

You forgot Rik Smits! :cuss:

and Jeff Hornacek.

[Amnorix]

Bird was awesome.. no question.. but top 5??

Did you see him play? Magic has a great quote about him. He said some thing like:

"Sometimes young black guys will ask me, 'was Larry Bird really that good?' And I say, 'he was so good, it was scary.'"

[Amnorix]

1. Larry Bird

2. Jerry West

3. Bob Cousy

4. Pistol Pete Marovich

5. John Stockton

Who is in your top 5?


Coach: Adolph Rupp.

[CoMoChief]

As of now.....

Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar




15 yrs from now......

1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Larry Bird

[CoMoChief]

Coach: Adolph Rupp.

Phil Jackson

[Chief Faithful]

Jordan - hands down best all around in history of game
Magic - best point guard although I see Lebron passing him in time
Bird - my personal favorite
Wilt Chamberlain - changed the league
Oscar Robertson - best all around of his time

[Amnorix]

Phil Jackson

You missed the joke.

And it'd be Red Auerbach anyway. ;)

[milkman]

kindly tongue my anal sphincter, sir.... kindly

It doesn't bother me that you're gay, but I'm not, so you'll have to find another gay to satisfy your longing to have your ass licked by another man.

[milkman]

yep, but Jordan has to be the best player ever imo. I dont see how that is subjective.

Jordan 1
then everyone else 2nd, but people will think how they want

It is subjective, because Wilt is the best player ever to many who have seen both play.

And the fact is, rules were created and changed specifically to contain Wilt, while every other star, including MJ, had rules relaxed in order to facilitate their game.

[Deberg_1990]

Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Magic

[Amnorix]

Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Magic

Wow. Basketball started in 1980. I didn't know that...


:p

[Amnorix]

It is subjective, because Wilt is the best player ever to many who have seen both play.

And the fact is, rules were created and changed specifically to contain Wilt, while every other star, including MJ, had rules relaxed in order to facilitate their game.

Wellll....I agree that rules were changed due to Wilt, though they were probably overdue anyway as the nature of the game was changing, etc. But yes, Wilt was the demonstrator of how the then-existing rules couldn't handle someone of that size, etc.

But IIRC he never, EVER fouled out of a game his entire career. I dont' doubt for a second that he got the benefit of many calls during his career.

[Basileus777]

But IIRC he never, EVER fouled out of a game his entire career. I dont' doubt for a second that he got the benefit of many calls during his career.

I'd say that it's more of a reflection of how good he was at avoiding fouls combined with officiating that didn't constantly call touch fouls and screw over big men.

[Amnorix]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson (tie)
3. Larry Bird (tie)
5. Bill Russell

I never said my top 5, and it's this, though I won't bother to say whether I'd keep that same order.

This team has tremendous defensive talent as well. Russ wasn't a great scorer, but with those other 4 guys on the court, and Russ with his great hands/vision (he was a VERY good passer), he'd be just fine.

The defense is beyond sick. Jordan is the only guy shorter than 6'9". Wilt and Russ are, BY FAR, the two greatest rebounders in NBA history, and both were also great shot blockers.

I admit I'm half-tempted to switch out Bird for the Big O, because that team would be a truly dominant fast-break type team, whereas Bird was never fast and Wilt while agile wasn't fleet a' foot either. But... I can't. I'm sure you can understand why. :D

[Amnorix]

I'd say that it's more of a reflection of how good he was at avoiding fouls combined with officiating that didn't constantly call touch fouls and screw over big men.

I agree, he was good at avoiding fouls, but honestly...some do say that it was also a result of him playing a little too soft.

Some speculate that he was SO big, SO strong, SO dominant, that he was afraid to bring it all to bear. He didn't have neough killer instinct.

IIRC he once AVERAGED over 48 minutes per game for an entire season (due to overtimes). He never came out. He was a center. And he NEVER fouled out? Not once? It really is unfathomable. Touch fouls or not...

[Amnorix]

I never said my top 5, and it's this, though I won't bother to say whether I'd keep that same order.

This team has tremendous defensive talent as well. Russ wasn't a great scorer, but with those other 4 guys on the court, and Russ with his great hands/vision (he was a VERY good passer), he'd be just fine.

The defense is beyond sick. Jordan is the only guy shorter than 6'9". Wilt and Russ are, BY FAR, the two greatest rebounders in NBA history, and both were also great shot blockers.

I admit I'm half-tempted to switch out Bird for the Big O, because that team would be a truly dominant fast-break type team, whereas Bird was never fast and Wilt while agile wasn't fleet a' foot either. But... I can't. I'm sure you can understand why. :D

This thread has inspired me, as I am wont to do, to watch interviews and film of old players and games.

This fascinating interview with Wilt is exactly why the top 5 team should have Russell. Watch it starting at the 1:30 mark. Brilliant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CqQ4x3klT4&feature=related

[banyon]

As of now.....

Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar




15 yrs from now......

1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Larry Bird


I like him, but LeBronze might want to win a ring sometime to make this happen.

[banyon]

I never said my top 5, and it's this, though I won't bother to say whether I'd keep that same order.

This team has tremendous defensive talent as well. Russ wasn't a great scorer, but with those other 4 guys on the court, and Russ with his great hands/vision (he was a VERY good passer), he'd be just fine.

The defense is beyond sick. Jordan is the only guy shorter than 6'9". Wilt and Russ are, BY FAR, the two greatest rebounders in NBA history, and both were also great shot blockers.

I admit I'm half-tempted to switch out Bird for the Big O, because that team would be a truly dominant fast-break type team, whereas Bird was never fast and Wilt while agile wasn't fleet a' foot either. But... I can't. I'm sure you can understand why. :D

You'd lose a little last second clutch shooting and team intangibles too with that switch, IMO.

[Amnorix]

You'd lose a little last second clutch shooting and team intangibles too with that switch, IMO.

I agree. I don't know how clutch the Big O was, but Larry was the clutchest (if that's a word) I ever saw, pretty much.

I remember an interview with MJ halfway or so through his career. Some reporter was halfway through a question about who MJ would want shooting (otehr than himself) a game winning shot. The guy didn't even finish the answer and MJ said "Bird."

:LOL:

But I love the fast break possibilities.

But yeah, push comes to shove I gotta give it to Bird.

[vailpass]

I agree. I don't know how clutch the Big O was, but Larry was the clutchest (if that's a word) I ever saw, pretty much.

I remember an interview with MJ halfway or so through his career. Some reporter was halfway through a question about who MJ would want shooting (otehr than himself) a game winning shot. The guy didn't even finish the answer and MJ said "Bird."

:LOL:

But I love the fast break possibilities.

But yeah, push comes to shove I gotta give it to Bird.

Larry Bird woke up wanting to be the one to take the game winning shot and went to bed wanting to be the guy to take the game winning shot. In between Larry Bird knew that when his chance came to take the game winning shot he would make it.

I'm sure you've seen them but I love watching the clips where Larry points out different spots on the floor to the young guy gaurding him telling where he is going to shoot from. Each time he shoots from the exact spot he named and each time he hits the shot. Funniest part:The guys on the other team's bench were falling off laughing.

[Amnorix]

Larry Bird woke up wanting to be the one to take the game winning shot and went to bed wanting to be the guy to take the game winning shot. In between Larry Bird knew that when his chance came to take the game winning shot he would make it.

I'm sure you've seen them but I love watching the clips where Larry points out different spots on the floor to the young guy gaurding him telling where he is going to shoot from. Each time he shoots from the exact spot he named and each time he hits the shot. Funniest part:The guys on the other team's bench were falling off laughing.

Oh yeah.

Barkley has a good story of something McHale said. I'll find the YouTube post...

it's at the beginning of this video dedicated to McHale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSZC4TAYVc


Also, I love the video of Bird raining 60 down on the Hawks one game. The thing to focus on are the Hawks players on the bench who literally are falling off the bench laughing at some of the totally absurd shots Bird was hitting.

You can skip forward to the 4 minute mark. The Atlanta fans start rooting for Bird to keep hitting. ROFL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto2_oYVs0I

[Deberg_1990]

Wow. Basketball started in 1980. I didn't know that...


:p

That lineup in their primes would wipe the floor with just about anybody.

[Amnorix]

That lineup in their primes would wipe the floor with just about anybody.

Of course it would.

But you've basically traded out Shaq and Duncan for Wilt and Russ. Nothing personal, but that's nuts.

[Cannibal]

Kobe is not a top 5 player all time. Possibly top 10, maybe.

[Basileus777]

I'd rather have a more interesting mix of a team, something like:

Wilt
Bird
Jordan
West
Oscar

Ultimate small ball team full of excellent shooters, good passers, and some nice penetrating ability. Good luck guarding this team on the break or in pick and roll situations. The only problem would be Bird on defense at the 4, but Bird would give any PF hell trying to guard him in turn.

[Cannibal]

I'd rather have a more interesting mix of a team, something like:

Wilt
Bird
Jordan
West
Oscar

Ultimate small ball team full of excellent shooters, good passers, and some nice penetrating ability.

I think you nailed it.

[Amnorix]

I'd rather have a more interesting mix of a team, something like:

Wilt
Bird
Jordan
West
Oscar

Ultimate small ball team full of excellent shooters, good passers, and some nice penetrating ability. Good luck guarding this team on the break or in pick and roll situations. The only problem would be Bird on defense at the 4, but Bird would give any PF hell trying to guard him in turn.

I must admit, this team would be pretty sick. Wilt was an extremely good passer for a big man.

Who are you going to play at small forward? Jordan I guess, since he's got a few inches on everyone other than Wilt/Bird.

These guys were pretty good rebounders, in general, but I'm not sure how they would fare against, say:

Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
MJ

Assuming you could clone MJ and Bird, and Wilt, I'm not sure that the rebounding advantage isn't so overwhelming with this second group that it beats the first. And I'm certainly not giving up anything on defense. Penetrators won't be happy to find Wilt/Russ in the middle of the lane waiting on them...

[Basileus777]

Penetrators won't be happy to find Wilt/Russ in the middle of the lane waiting on them...

With Bird drawing Russell our to the three-point line, they won't have to. With Bird playing PF and the other shooters on the team, the spacing should be excellent. The team is built like the Orlando Magic in that regard. My team is a lot smaller and quicker, which will give your team trouble in transition. That combined with their shooting ability is going to make the pick and roll very difficult to guard. When you have to deal with Jordan penetrating to the lane or taking a pull-up jumper, Wilt rolling to the basket, and West, Oscar, and Bird at the three-point line, who do you leave open? Bird and Magic guarding Oscar and West is going to give your team problems on defense too.

As a result of your team playing two centers together, my team is going to be able to help of off Russell on defense and pack the lane because none of your bigs can shoot. And that's going to make it a lot tougher for Magic and Bird to take advantage of their size advantage by posting up my guards.

Rebounding would be a problem, but if my team pushed the pace and was able to hit their outside shots, I like their chances.

[Amnorix]

With Bird drawing Russell our to the three-point line, they won't have to. With Bird playing PF and the other shooters on the team, the spacing should be excellent. The team is built like the Orlando Magic in that regard. My team is a lot smaller and quicker, which will give your team trouble in transition. That combined with their shooting ability is going to make the pick and roll very difficult to guard. When you have to deal with Jordan penetrating to the lane or taking a pull-up jumper, Wilt rolling to the basket, and West, Oscar, and Bird at the three-point line, who do you leave open? Bird and Magic guarding Oscar and West is going to give your team problems on defense too.

As a result of your team playing two centers together, my team is going to be able to help of off Russell on defense and pack the lane because none of your bigs can shoot. And that's going to make it a lot tougher for Magic and Bird to take advantage of their size advantage by posting up my guards.

Rebounding would be a problem, but if my team pushed the pace and was able to hit their outside shots, I like their chances.

Maybe. I think you underestimate Russell's defense on pick and rolls. He was crazy athletic, not some plodding big man. He'd keep up fine on transition and my group will get offensive rebounds like mad.

We're always fascinated with offense. There's only one ball. Swapping out yet another offensive stud for the best defensive player in NBA history makes sense to me. :shrug:

[Pioli Zombie]

Wilt at center. Russell power forward. Bird small forward. Magic point guard. MJ shooting guard.

What is more to say?

Btw, that is why the '92 will always be the greatest team ever assembled. When you have Bird,Magic and MJ. And then have the likes of Robinson, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, Malone. I mean good God.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Basileus777]

Maybe. I think you underestimate Russell's defense on pick and rolls. He was crazy athletic, not some plodding big man. He'd keep up fine on transition and my group will get offensive rebounds like mad.

We're always fascinated with offense. There's only one ball. Swapping out yet another offensive stud for the best defensive player in NBA history makes sense to me. :shrug:

Russell obviously isn't some plodding big man, he's quick and athletic...for a center. He's still going to have trouble guarding Larry Bird, just as Magic and Bird will have problems with Oscar and West. Defense is obviously the key, and it's your team's problem. A team that is essentially a tall SG, two tall SFs, and two centers on defense isn't going to be able to matchup up with or guard a smaller team. Your team is simply too big, if you want defense you'd be better off switching out Magic or Bird for someone like Frazier.

I also think sometimes people overlook how important it is to have people who can shoot when building teams like this. Basketball is essentially a game of spacing, if you don't have enough players who can hit outside shots or play off the ball, you're going to have some problems when playing another all-great team who can do that. Team USA's past struggles show this. I think my team works pretty well in that regard. Despite the difference in talent and ability, I wonder if my team might actually be better if I switched out Oscar for Ray Allen for those reasons.