Chiefs Mike Martz isn't sold on Cassel [Archive]

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 05:04 AM

He only has a qb rating of 28 against the blitz???!!!

I hope to god that improved as the year went on or Thigpen will be making chicken salad again...

NE's line isn't and wasn't as solid as martz made it out to be, first off. Second off, watch the games, matt made many good decisions and showed visible improvements over the year. I'm excited about the potential. Third, we are going to play a different Offense than either NE or the Cards, because we have different players/coaches (well, players anyway, LOL).

on another note, I watched the hailey sit down. I like that he's an emotion guy, so I don't mind the firery attitude he's been getting flack for. I also like that he and Pioli haven't always been the best of friends, and have had disagreements before, but Pioli hired him anyway. I know this means Hailey could be the best of a bad situation, but it also could mean that Pioli likes the different views they have and still respects him for it. I think it's the later, or at least I hope it's the later.....

Mecca

06-12-2009, 05:13 AM

Actually if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QB's.

Chiefs=Champions

06-12-2009, 05:14 AM

http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d810c891e/32-in-32-Kansas-City-Chiefs

Mike Martz is also out of a job..... Haha, yes me 1 you and Fartz 0..

p.s if thats what he says about Cas, imagine what he'd say about Orton... :eek:

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 05:27 AM

Actually if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QB's.

what has he done with the 49ers or the Lions? do they not have qb's? Alex smith doesn't have the same talent as trent green or kurt warner? He did a great job with the redskins in 97-98, with gus......

beach tribe

06-12-2009, 05:47 AM

Without Marshall faulk, Torry Holt, Orlando Pace, Isaac Bruce, and Kurt Warner, a lot of people around here, probably including the thread starter, wouldn't even know who the fuck, Martz is.

The thing I remember most about Martz, is him single handedly giving the pats their first SB win with his ridiculous play calling.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 05:56 AM

Actually if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QB's.

Actually, I want you to explain this comment.
What QB is Martz's greatest pupil? Alex Smith? Trent Green? Kurt Warner?

You did know that martz and green were in washington together, in 98 (martz was QB coach) and took him to St. Louis, we got him after that, because undrafted Warner took over after green was injured, and green has his best years here with al saunders, terry shea and dick vermeil, but yea, Mecca is always right, Martz knows him some good QBs.......

Trent Green is a perfect example, he needed the best line in the game with an all world RB and it made him look good, so much so that people acted like he was the fuckin man when he still had a ton of flaws.

No offense to people who liked Green but he was put behind a great line, given a RB and basically never got touched...most QB's would succeed stats wise in that situation like he did...he always held the ball to long and when his perfect situation degraded a bit he basically died..

And he still never won a playoff game.

And we all knew he would get ear holed as soon as the line went down and he did...

Trent Green was in a situation many QB's would have killed for stand there for 8 seconds don't get touched hold onto the ball forever don't get touched.

Imagine if we had had Drew Bledsoe then? He'd have threw for 5000 yards.

I bet you could find people that really think Green was better than Bledsoe because they purposely forget how good he was when he was young and just remember the end of his career.

you're and idiot....

Warrior5

06-12-2009, 06:11 AM

Piss on Martz.

JimNasium

06-12-2009, 06:20 AM

JD10367

06-12-2009, 06:23 AM

Ever since the 2001 Super Bowl, when Bill Belichick bent Martz over and dry-humped him in front of the entire world, Martz has been a has-been.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 06:28 AM

I didn't have a problem with what Martz had to say. He's right, the QB is not going to carry this team alone and the cupboard is kinda bare right now. I predict a Trent Green like first year and we'll see how they do getting talent in here during the next couple of years.

I'm no martz or mecca, but I've been watching alot of cassel from last year, and it's colored me impressed. Have we found a saviour at QB, IDK. But he seems better than trent, imo anyway....

JimNasium

06-12-2009, 06:31 AM

I'm no martz or mecca, but I've been watching alot of cassel from last year, and it's colored me impressed. Have we found a saviour at QB, IDK. But he seems better than trent, imo anyway....

What I meant to convey was I think his first year will be comparable to Trent's first as a Chief. He's going to show some good and some bad this year but his future success is highly dependent on the talent that Pioli can bring here in the future.

HonestChieffan

06-12-2009, 06:35 AM

Mike Martz
Bob Gretz

Why do these people even get noticed?

They both have a z in their names.

Is there a trend there?

Bwana

06-12-2009, 06:45 AM

Mike Martz is a clown.
LMAO

LaChapelle

06-12-2009, 06:50 AM

These things come in threes. Waiting for Bilick's and Fassel's opinions, then grade on a curve.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 06:52 AM

What I meant to convey was I think his first year will be comparable to Trent's first as a Chief. He's going to show some good and some bad this year but his future success is highly dependent on the talent that Pioli can bring here in the future.

don't mean to be a dick, but - d'uh?
no I get what you're saying, and it's right on, I just didn't understand the first time, sorry.....

suds79

06-12-2009, 06:56 AM

So Mike Martz's, who said Cassel is a good player in there, big gripe is Matt holds that ball too long?

Okay. That's correctable. I'll take that.

It's not like he said "he's inaccurate", "he makes bad reads"

As good as a year Matt had last year, I expect him to be a better QB this year and the following because of the gained experience.

BossChief

06-12-2009, 07:02 AM

NE's line isn't and wasn't as solid as martz made it out to be, first off. Second off, watch the games, matt made many good decisions and showed visible improvements over the year. I'm excited about the potential. Third, we are going to play a different Offense than either NE or the Cards, because we have different players/coaches (well, players anyway, LOL).

on another note, I watched the hailey sit down. I like that he's an emotion guy, so I don't mind the firery attitude he's been getting flack for. I also like that he and Pioli haven't always been the best of friends, and have had disagreements before, but Pioli hired him anyway. I know this means Hailey could be the best of a bad situation, but it also could mean that Pioli likes the different views they have and still respects him for it. I think it's the later, or at least I hope it's the later.....First off, NEs line is better than ours

second, NE has better players at the skill positions for this offense than we will

third the offense we ran last year (called Perkins-Ernhart) is identical to the one NE and the Cards ran last year. It will differ a bit like you said because of difference in players but will resemble it more and more as the year goes on.

No matter what, Herm and his weak gameplans are gone and Haley will be a gameday god in comparison so, Im good!

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 07:06 AM

Look, I'm a huge Cassel fan, but it's crazy to discredit Martz's opinion. When it comes to QBs, he is an absolutely phenomenal judge of talent. This is the guy who found Trent Green, Kurt Warner, and Marc Bulger--it's not likek these guys were blue-chip prospects. These were guys that were either drafted at the butt-end of the draft or completely undrafted. It's too difficult to judge his success based on his stint in Detroit and San Fran--he was there way too short a time, and he wasn't given nearly the amount of license to pick his own guys as he was in San Fran. Still, you could argue that in that very short period of time, he got more out of Jon Kitna than any coach ever has and for as bad as you all say he was in San Fran, you forget that this was a team that finished with a 5-3 record in the second half. Martz is still a good coach who just happened to coach for two lousy teams and was given no time to finish either job. You can't bring in an o-coordinator and demand results from a building team in less than 3 seasons.

That being said, Martz's flaws are that he hates running the ball and his personality is abrasive. But that shouldn't take away the fact that he is phenomenal at developing talent, especially QBs. Besides, it's not like he said anything in this interview that we didn't already know. Cassel does have trouble holding onto the ball too long and avoiding the blitz. I think he'll get better at it because he got better as the season goes along, but it's still a point of concern.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 07:07 AM

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 07:10 AM

First off, NEs line is better than ours

second, NE has better players at the skill positions for this offense than we will

third the offense we ran last year (called Perkins-Ernhart) is identical to the one NE and the Cards ran last year. It will differ a bit like you said because of difference in players but will resemble it more and more as the year goes on.

No matter what, Herm and his weak gameplans are gone and Haley will be a gameday god in comparison so, Im good!

I said NE's line is not as good as martz claimed, not that it was/is better than ours, but yet thigpen was sacked less...... Mmmmmmm

NE has better WR than us, ok, I said that already too,

The offense we ended up running is close to the NE and Cards O, but not what we started off as, and who compares to LJ (even if he's decsending) in NE or AR?

SAUTO

06-12-2009, 07:10 AM

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 07:30 AM

I'm no martz or mecca, but I've been watching alot of cassel from last year, and it's colored me impressed. Have we found a saviour at QB, IDK. But he seems better than trent, imo anyway....

Well, he definitely has better measurables--better pocket presence and a lot more zip on the ball. If that can translate to better play on the field, we'll see. But he's got the leadership and work ethic to do it, I think.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 07:33 AM

Well, he definitely has better measurables--better pocket presence and a lot more zip on the ball. If that can translate to better play on the field, we'll see. But he's got the leadership and work ethic to do it, I think.

and last year we saw him show better play on the field with improvement, and he's already showing work ethic....

Mecca

06-12-2009, 07:35 AM

Actually, I want you to explain this comment.
What QB is Martz's greatest pupil? Alex Smith? Trent Green? Kurt Warner?

You did know that martz and green were in washington together, in 98 (martz was QB coach) and took him to St. Louis, we got him after that, because undrafted Warner took over after green was injured, and green has his best years here with al saunders, terry shea and dick vermeil, but yea, Mecca is always right, Martz knows him some good QBs.......

you're and idiot....

Ok if you give him Green as an example...he turned a grocery store bagger into a league MVP and then took another piece of trash in Marc Bulger and gave him his best years..

But I'm the idiot huh?

You know what, you bag cause I said it, you got some issue with me so fuckin blow me really. It's old, grow up and stop acting like a 3 year old with a grudge.

DTLB58

06-12-2009, 07:45 AM

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 07:46 AM

Ok if you give him Green as an example...he turned a grocery store bagger into a league MVP and then took another piece of trash in Marc Bulger and gave him his best years..

But I'm the idiot huh?

You know what, you bag cause I said it, you got some issue with me so fuckin blow me really. It's old, grow up and stop acting like a 3 year old with a grudge.

Don't hate being called out, you say he really knows QBs, He was Trent's QB coach in Washington, and had a say in bringing him to STL. That bagger that won an MVP wasn't the starter, but you say Martz "turned him into a MVP". And Bulger? Really? WTF - (his best years were in 03-04?) he was a starter for the rams in 03 when they made the playoffs but what happened in 04, that's right, they were on the decline, then in 05, martz was in the hospital most of the year, but - sure Martz made Bulger into a great QB. Then what about his great QB influence on Alex Smith? yup - nothing, the lions? don't make me laugh

Just own up, you said Martz knows good QBs. He knows little about good QBs and you can't prove otherwise.

Mecca

06-12-2009, 07:49 AM

This is great a guy who developed more QB's in 6 years than the Chiefs have in 30, and I'm the idiot here.

You may not personally like the guy but that doesn't change the fact that his QB track record is as good as you will find for someone that has worked with multiple QB's.

I have a problem with you because you're debating skills consist if "you're wrong cause I said so" then you make up gay ass names like meccamist.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 07:50 AM

DTLB58

06-12-2009, 07:53 AM

It really didn't take Martz to point out that Cassel held the ball to long.

Several here pointed it out, ie. all the sacks last year with NE. So we really don't need the argument whether or not Martz knows football or not. It dosen't take a genuis to tell if a QB holds the ball to long. Just get a coach to get him to correct it. Simple.

Mecca

06-12-2009, 07:54 AM

All 3 of those guys I named went to pro bowls right?

I'm pretty sure a guy who got major production from dudes that were undrafted bagging groceries or drafted in the 6th round by another team should get some fucking credit here.

Of course you will somehow tell me how that isn't good enough I'm sure.

Mecca

06-12-2009, 07:55 AM

The Bad Guy

06-12-2009, 07:55 AM

Mike Martz actually thought JT O'Sullivan was going to be a good NFL QB. There are times he's right, and there are times he's wrong.

The Bad Guy

06-12-2009, 07:57 AM

Of course Cassel held the ball too long. Did you expect the guy was just going to come into an NFL game with all the pocket awareness in the world.

Lzen

06-12-2009, 08:01 AM

What I meant to convey was I think his first year will be comparable to Trent's first as a Chief. He's going to show some good and some bad this year but his future success is highly dependent on the talent that Pioli can bring here in the future.

I hope he doesn't throw as many INTs as Trent did his first year. Of course, part of that was because Trent had piss poor receivers to work with. That offense was based on timing and proper reads by the receivers as well as the QBs.

As far as the quote by Mecca about Trent never won a playoff game....
That is a dumb argument. Anybody who blames Trent for the crappy defenses that were his team over those years is ignorant. Kind of hard to even get to the playoffs with just offense and STs.

More specifically, in the game against the Colts he didn't make Priest Holmes fumble at a critical juncture in the 3rd quarter and he didn't play on that defense that never forced the Colts to punt once. Green played very well in the game. Well enough to win with even a mediocre defense. Unfortunately, ours was terrible.

Deberg_1990

06-12-2009, 08:03 AM

Mecca

06-12-2009, 08:04 AM

By the way for those posts he's quoting up there, is there anyone that on their best days really thinks Trent Green was a better player than Bledsoe was?

Dottefan

06-12-2009, 08:05 AM

I HATE MIKE MARTZ............BUT I HATE DENVER MORE

Lzen

06-12-2009, 08:06 AM

Oh, and another one of those Mecca comments that CC quoted was "Trent Green was in a situation many QB's would have killed for stand there for 8 seconds don't get touched hold onto the ball forever don't get touched". Bullshit. He never stood there for 8 seconds. Good Lord. If your argument is weak, you exaggerate? :shake: Any QB who puts up good numbers in the NFL has at least a decent offensive line. That is a retarded statement.

Mecca

06-12-2009, 08:08 AM

Um Trent Green stood there for alot longer than most QB's ever get...he could look at 5 options and still not get touched.

He got so use to really never being hit that any sort of real pressure fucked him all up, it would screw up his feet, his poise everything.

Lzen

06-12-2009, 08:09 AM

Oh and for the record, I don't really have much of a problem with what Martz said. I didn't really watch NE last year so I'll defer. It's not as if he was making up stuff from what I could tell. Just his opinion. I'm still gonna take a wait and see approach.

JD10367

06-12-2009, 08:10 AM

Football is a weird game. Things aren't always what they seem. Sometimes it looks like a QB is holding the ball too long or has no pocket awareness, but it may not be his fault. Perhaps the route-runner didn't get open in the manner he was supposed to, or the O-line got confused. (One thing I can say about the Patriots' lines, both O and D, is that they're sort of "feast or famine": on one play they block like world-beaters or destroy the opposing O-line and QB, and on the next play the O-line goes "Ole!" or the D-line gives the crappy opposing QB about 10 seconds to make a decision.) Or you might see a defender who looks like he got toasted by a wide-open receiver, but what you didn't see is that he was supposed to get help over the top and the other defensive back screwed up and never covered the guy.

Cassel's pocket awareness and decision-making improved with each game last season. Yes, you have to take into account things like the play-calling, and the guys running the plays; you don't have Belichick, and you don't have Randy Moss and Wes Welker. Still, you can only judge a player long-term. Given the scenario (ice-cold lightly-regarded bench player comes in to take over a strong team with high standards, and has to replace a legend) Cassel put up very strong numbers (yardage, TDs, completion %) which indicate he's got a good head on his shoulders. Now, in the first few games, until the O-line gets going and his rapport with the skill players develops a bit, Cassel might very well look like a deer in the headlights, and I'm sure Martz will pat himself on the back... but I think Cassel's got the tools, and isn't going to develop shell-shock like our poor Tony Eason did in the '85 Super Bowl against the Bears (which his career never recovered from).

Mecca

06-12-2009, 08:11 AM

They probably told Cassel to take sacks instead of throwing picks due to the situation they were in but you'd still like to see him go through his reads faster.

Hootie

06-12-2009, 08:15 AM

Actually if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QB's.

He sure was money with his boy J.T. O'Sullivan last year!

Lzen

06-12-2009, 08:18 AM

7 Broncos blitzing. Green makes a great read and a great throw. That was just a quick couple minutes search (trying to get work done, too).
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801c845b/Trent-Green-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Broncos-2006

Mecca

06-12-2009, 08:23 AM

1 video is obviously an example of the majority of his team with the Chiefs.

It's nice to like him and all but he was afforded as much time in the pocket as any QB could ever ask for.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 08:40 AM

Actually if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QB's.

This is great a guy who developed more QB's in 6 years than the Chiefs have in 30, and I'm the idiot here.

You may not personally like the guy but that doesn't change the fact that his QB track record is as good as you will find for someone that has worked with multiple QB's.

I have a problem with you because you're debating skills consist if "you're wrong cause I said so" then you make up gay ass names like meccamist.

name the great QBs he developed

I'm still waiting, Mecca.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 08:41 AM

By the way for those posts he's quoting up there, is there anyone that on their best days really thinks Trent Green was a better player than Bledsoe was?

I used trent green as an example, he is the best QB developed by martz, you said Martz knows QBs, but you slam on Green all the time. Keep shuffling.....

Tribal Warfare

06-12-2009, 08:47 AM

I used trent green as an example, he is the best QB developed by martz, you said Martz knows QBs, but you slam on Green all the time. Keep shuffling.....

If Cassel develops and becomes another Trent Green I'll be very happy.

Mecca

06-12-2009, 08:48 AM

I want someone to get CrazyCoffey a reading comprehension book, but he probably wouldn't comprehend that either.

Deberg_1990

06-12-2009, 08:50 AM

I used trent green as an example, he is the best QB developed by martz,

Kurt Warner??

Chief Faithful

06-12-2009, 08:53 AM

I used trent green as an example, he is the best QB developed by martz, you said Martz knows QBs, but you slam on Green all the time. Keep shuffling.....

I thought Martz first season in St Louis Green was out with a knee injury. Thus, Martz didn't really have anything to do with the development of Trent Green.

Brock

06-12-2009, 08:54 AM

Martz gets too much credit for any QB he's ever worked with.

gblowfish

06-12-2009, 08:56 AM

Mike Martz = Wile E Coyote of the NFL

Mecca

06-12-2009, 09:00 AM

I thought Martz first season in St Louis Green was out with a knee injury. Thus, Martz didn't really have anything to do with the development of Trent Green.

Martz was with Green in Washington and was probably the main reason he signed with the Rams.

BarrySPAMAID

06-12-2009, 09:02 AM

Mike Martz is one of the biggest jokes to ever land in the NFL. I mean that. I'm in St. Louis, and I have had my fill of Martz.

Deberg_1990

06-12-2009, 09:04 AM

Mike Martz is one of the biggest jokes to ever land in the NFL.

and yet he took a team to a Super Bowl....

Rausch

06-12-2009, 09:08 AM

and yet he took a team to a Super Bowl....

So did Trent Dilfer...

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 09:08 AM

I thought Martz first season in St Louis Green was out with a knee injury. Thus, Martz didn't really have anything to do with the development of Trent Green.

He was Green's coach in Washington, so he is the main guy to credit for his development. He also developed both Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger. Again, these are not first round blue-chip picks. These are QBs who were very lowly regarded that he brought up out of nowhere--there's no doubt he has a terrific eye for QB talent. Also, for as much as you guys rip on his tenure in Detroit and San Fran, he got a lot out of offenses that were completely absent any kind of talent. He turned Kitna into a 4,000 yard QB and he squeezed 7 wins out of Shaun Hill.

When it comes to QBs, he's a really good developer of talent, but most importantly, he's an outstanding judge of QB talent. It's crazy to ridicule the guy for not grooming JT O'Sullivan or Shaun Hill--first of all, neither of those QBs are any good. Second of all, it's not like Martz had any say in bringing any of those guys in. Same applies for Detroit--personally, I thought Dan Orlovsky played pretty well last year, given the circumstances. But again, I doubt he had very much say in personnel decisions--that's a team whose front office has consistently fucked up personnel decisions.

boogblaster

06-12-2009, 09:09 AM

Should we be concerned by a coach's statement .. He coached a couple good QBs .. But that doesn't mean he knows anything bout Cassel other than he played on a good team and won 11 games.. Which looks to me he's good enough to start for many teams in the NFL ...

Brock

06-12-2009, 09:11 AM

He was Green's coach in Washington, so he is the main guy to credit for his development. He also developed both Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger.

He didn't develop Kurt Warner.

Rausch

06-12-2009, 09:12 AM

Kurt Warner??

Martz didn't create Warner.

Warner got very little practice time going into that season. His polish came from the pass-happy Arena league and his stint in NFLE.

If Martz did anything it was nearly ruin Warner. Martz set him up with empty backfield sets, abandoned the run, and let Warner get beated stupid. It almost ended his career.

Did anyone think he'd be 1/2 the QB he was in Zona after the beating Martz marched him out there to take in St. Louis?...

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 09:14 AM

Mike Martz is one of the biggest jokes to ever land in the NFL. I mean that. I'm in St. Louis, and I have had my fill of Martz.

I lived in St. Louis too. That is the most spoiled fan base I've ever seen in my life. They get a new team, and suddenly they're in the Super Bowl. Bunch of bandwagon hoppers. Of course they didn't like Martz... when he was losing.

The truth is, Martz is an absolutely phenomenal offensive mind and a terrific positions coach. His downfall is that he is arrogant and makes reckless decisions. That's why he was so great under Vermeil--he had a coach overlooking him to tell him "no" when need be. He also has a tendency to move completely away from the running game. Those are all game management decisions. From that perspective, he's average. I also think he has no concept of building an offensive line, which hurt him everywhere he's been. But that doesn't take away the fact that he's absolutely superb when it comes to QBs and WRs.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 09:21 AM

He didn't develop Kurt Warner.

So you think that what made Kurt Warner was the arena league and his coaching in college? Or that his ability to throw cereal boxes at Wal-mart trained him for the job?

Kurt Warner was a nobody with no NFL polish, except for crappy Arena League and NFL Europe coaching. Warner was with the Rams in 1998, where he had plenty of time to develop before the 1999 season. In one season, they turned him into an elite QB. It is absurd to say Martz had no role in that. And again, it's not just impressive that Martz developed Warner, it's equally impressive that he recognized his talent at all. This is a complete nobody that Martz trusted to be a backup for an NFL football team. Not a third-stringer, not a practice squad QB, but a backup. We give Belichick a lot of credit for recognizing Brady and Cassel's talent, even though their college resumes were unimpressive. Same should be said of Warner.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 09:24 AM

Martz didn't create Warner.

Warner got very little practice time going into that season. His polish came from the pass-happy Arena league and his stint in NFLE.

If Martz did anything it was nearly ruin Warner. Martz set him up with empty backfield sets, abandoned the run, and let Warner get beated stupid. It almost ended his career.

Did anyone think he'd be 1/2 the QB he was in Zona after the beating Martz marched him out there to take in St. Louis?...

But you are pointing to scheme, and not to the actual development. And you are making a ridiculous suggestion that the Arena League prepared Warner for the NFL. The arena league and NFL Europe helped him get recognized. But he still needed to be coached up a LOT to be prepared for the NFL.

Martz gets reckless when it comes to scheming and game management. That doesn't take away from the fact that he is outstanding at developing QBs.

JD10367

06-12-2009, 09:27 AM

Before the Chiefs and Patriots teed off last September--before Brady's knee turned in directions God never intended--Martz, every other NFL coach, every NFL analyst, every non-Patriots fan, and almost all of the Patriots fans thought Matt Cassel sucked donkey balls. Apparently, Scott Pioli, Bill Belichick, and Cassel's parents were the only people who thought the kid was worth more than a half-dozen jockstraps and a case of Gatorade. Now there's worry because Mike "I got undressed in SB36" Martz thinks Cassel holds onto the ball too long? File that under "Things I Don't Give A Shit About", personally... :)

Brock

06-12-2009, 09:29 AM

So you think that what made Kurt Warner was the arena league and his coaching in college? Or that his ability to throw cereal boxes at Wal-mart trained him for the job?

Kurt Warner excelled at every level he ever played at. The few months that Martz actually worked with him at a minimal level didn't make any difference. He was ready to play, period.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 09:33 AM

I want someone to get CrazyCoffey a reading comprehension book, but he probably wouldn't comprehend that either.

Actually if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QB's.

prove it, that's what I'm saying, prove that if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QBs. Validate his statements on NFL network about not being sold on Cassel based on Martz's one thing that he's good at.

you never address an issue from the front, IMO. but here's your chance to prove me wrong this time. You say Martz is good at knowing QBs, I say he's not, show me I'm wrong.

Let me go ahead and prove you wrong anyway;

1992 martz LA Rams QB coach - starter = Jim Everett (Did Martz Develop him, no) other QBs - Mike Pagel (who)
1993 martz LA Rams QB coach - starter = Jim Everett (Did Martz Develop him, no - end of career) Mike Pagel still there and T.J Rubley (who)
1994 martz LA Rams QB coach - starter = Chris Chandler (Did Martz Develop him, no) other QBs - Maddox/ chris miller
1995 martz LA Rams WR coach - starter = Chris Miller (Did Martz Develop him, one year but now he's WR coach) Other QBs Dave Barr, Mark Rypien, neither drafted by the Rams.
1996 martz LA Rams WR coach - starter = Tony Banks, drafted by Rams while Martz is the WR coach, mmmmmmm..... other QBs, Jamie Martin, Steve Walsh
1997 martz is Redskins QB coach - starter = Gus Frerotte, other QBs Trent Green and Jeff Hostetler, none drafted by Martz or the redskins
1998 martz is Redskins QB coach - starter = Trent green, one year of development by the great Mike Martz and the Redskins go 6-10.
1999 Martz is Rams Offensive Coordinator, starter is Trent Green, injury puts Kurt Warner on the map, the rest is history, on a side note, the Rams and Martz draft Joe Germaine in the 4th (who)
2000 Martz is Rams Head Coach, starter is Kurt Warner, Trent does fill in duty after injury.
2001 Martz is Rams Head Coach, starter is Kurt Warner back up is Jamie Martin, shudder (where's Martz's draft pick Joe Germaine????)
2002 Martz is still Rams HC, Starter is Warner/Marc Bulger (not drafted or developed by Martz, but beats out Warner and Martin)
2003 Martz is Rams HC, Starter is Marc Bulger, first year as starter, one year development for Martz.
2004 Martz is Rams HC, Starter is Marc Bulger, finish the year 8-8, whoa, second year of development and there is a decline in production?
2005 martz is in hospital most of the year.....
2006 Martz is Lions OC, starting QB - Jon Kitna, back up - josh McGowan, neither developed by martz.
2007, Martz is Lions OC, starting QB - Jon Kitna, back up - JT O'sullivan, not drafted by martz, improvement but fired at the end of the season.
2008 49ers OC, Starting QB - Alex Smith (injuried) so Martz LOBBIED FOR J.T. O'Sullivan!!!!! Shaun Hill started the other half of the season.

I stand corrected, Mr. Martz sure does know something about QBs, :rolleyes:

MOhillbilly

06-12-2009, 09:38 AM

FOR J.T. O'Sullivan!!!!! Shaun Hill started the other half of the season.

I stand corrected, Mr. Martz sure does know something about QBs, :rolleyes:

meccas comments about bledsoe throwing for 5000 if hed been a chief should be enough for anyone who knows anything about NFL football. i read that and lol!

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 09:39 AM

Martz was with Green in Washington and was probably the main reason he signed with the Rams.

he was with JT O'Sullivan in Detriot and took him to San Fran too, the same thing could be said about him....

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 09:41 AM

Kurt Warner excelled at every level he ever played at. The few months that Martz actually worked with him at a minimal level didn't make any difference. He was ready to play, period.

and yet he got overlooked by EVERY PROFESSIONAL SCOUT!!! people that get paid to find talent didn't see his potential, Warner is a true underdog story....

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 09:53 AM

prove it, that's what I'm saying, prove that if there's one thing Martz is pretty good with, it's QBs. Validate his statements on NFL network about not being sold on Cassel based on Martz's one thing that he's good at.

you never address an issue from the front, IMO. but here's your chance to prove me wrong this time. You say Martz is good at knowing QBs, I say he's not, show me I'm wrong.

Let me go ahead and prove you wrong anyway;

1992 martz LA Rams QB coach - starter = Jim Everett (Did Martz Develop him, no) other QBs - Mike Pagel (who)
1993 martz LA Rams QB coach - starter = Jim Everett (Did Martz Develop him, no - end of career) Mike Pagel still there and T.J Rubley (who)
1994 martz LA Rams QB coach - starter = Chris Chandler (Did Martz Develop him, no) other QBs - Maddox/ chris miller
1995 martz LA Rams WR coach - starter = Chris Miller (Did Martz Develop him, one year but now he's WR coach) Other QBs Dave Barr, Mark Rypien, neither drafted by the Rams.
1996 martz LA Rams WR coach - starter = Tony Banks, drafted by Rams while Martz is the WR coach, mmmmmmm..... other QBs, Jamie Martin, Steve Walsh
1997 martz is Redskins QB coach - starter = Gus Frerotte, other QBs Trent Green and Jeff Hostetler, none drafted by Martz or the redskins
1998 martz is Redskins QB coach - starter = Trent green, one year of development by the great Mike Martz and the Redskins go 6-10.
1999 Martz is Rams Offensive Coordinator, starter is Trent Green, injury puts Kurt Warner on the map, the rest is history, on a side note, the Rams and Martz draft Joe Germaine in the 4th (who)
2000 Martz is Rams Head Coach, starter is Kurt Warner, Trent does fill in duty after injury.
2001 Martz is Rams Head Coach, starter is Kurt Warner back up is Jamie Martin, shudder (where's Martz's draft pick Joe Germaine????)
2002 Martz is still Rams HC, Starter is Warner/Marc Bulger (not drafted or developed by Martz, but beats out Warner and Martin)
2003 Martz is Rams HC, Starter is Marc Bulger, first year as starter, one year development for Martz.
2004 Martz is Rams HC, Starter is Marc Bulger, finish the year 8-8, whoa, second year of development and there is a decline in production?
2005 martz is in hospital most of the year.....
2006 Martz is Lions OC, starting QB - Jon Kitna, back up - josh McGowan, neither developed by martz.
2007, Martz is Lions OC, starting QB - Jon Kitna, back up - JT O'sullivan, not drafted by martz, improvement but fired at the end of the season.
2008 49ers OC, Starting QB - Alex Smith (injuried) so Martz LOBBIED FOR J.T. O'Sullivan!!!!! Shaun Hill started the other half of the season.

I stand corrected, Mr. Martz sure does know something about QBs, :rolleyes:

That's great research, but a few things. First of all, you're placing really unrealistic expectations about a coach's ability to develop QBs. It's not like Martz was continually given marquee, blue-chip talent and it's not like the QB position is easy to develop anyway. How many of those guys that you mention are first day picks? (Not even first round, first day). Of course he's going to whiff a few times, but he's also succeeded far more than most coaches have in getting very good "nobody" QBs to outperform expectations.
Second, it's grossly unfair to not give him credit just because he wasn't the first to develop a player. He was integral in the development of most of his good players. If Martz had nothing to do with Green's development, than why did the Rams choose to bring Martz and Green over as a package deal in 1999? And Green's 2000 season where he had a 102 rating in 5 starts doesn't count, but his 6-10 record in his first starting season does?

And again, why does Martz not get credit for developing Kurt Warner? Do people actually believe that the Arena League and NFL Europe were successful vehicles for preparing players for the NFL? Martz deserves a ton of credit for getting Warner NFL-ready extremely quickly--true, his scheme ruined him, but in terms of getting him prepared for the NFL, he certainly deserves credit.

Finally, you put too much focus on record and not on QB achievement. Who cares if Bulger went 8-8 on a Rams team that had a joke of a defense? It doesnt' take away from the fact that he developed a complete nobody into a pro bowl calibre QB.

I'm not saying Mike Martz = Bill Walsh. But from the perspective of grooming QBs, it's hard to find a coach who has done more with less. Again, we're not talking about first round picks here. We're talking about a coach who had a huge role in making three complete nobody QBs into pro bowlers or borderline pro bowlers.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 10:01 AM

That's great research, but a few things. First of all, you're placing really unrealistic expectations about a coach's ability to develop QBs. It's not like Martz was continually given marquee, blue-chip talent and it's not like the QB position is easy to develop anyway. How many of those guys that you mention are first day picks? (Not even first round, first day). Of course he's going to whiff a few times, but he's also succeeded far more than most coaches have in getting very good "nobody" QBs to outperform expectations.
Second, it's grossly unfair to not give him credit just because he wasn't the first to develop a player. He was integral in the development of most of his good players. If Martz had nothing to do with Green's development, than why did the Rams choose to bring Martz and Green over as a package deal in 1999? And Green's 2000 season where he had a 102 rating in 5 starts doesn't count, but his 6-10 record in his first starting season does?

And again, why does Martz not get credit for developing Kurt Warner? Do people actually believe that the Arena League and NFL Europe were successful vehicles for preparing players for the NFL? Martz deserves a ton of credit for getting Warner NFL-ready extremely quickly--true, his scheme ruined him, but in terms of getting him prepared for the NFL, he certainly deserves credit.

Finally, you put too much focus on record and not on QB achievement. Who cares if Bulger went 8-8 on a Rams team that had a joke of a defense? It doesnt' take away from the fact that he developed a complete nobody into a pro bowl calibre QB.

I'm not saying Mike Martz = Bill Walsh. But from the perspective of grooming QBs, it's hard to find a coach who has done more with less. Again, we're not talking about first round picks here. We're talking about a coach who had a huge role in making three complete nobody QBs into pro bowlers or borderline pro bowlers.

I give credit to Martz being around Green in his "impressionable" years as a starter in the NFL, and we reeped the majority of the reward. Warner was an undrafted backup, you think he was "groomed" by Martz to be an MVP? Maybe, but IMO - I don't see it. Bulger started one year under Martz (he's first year as a ram, he was a backup and Martz was OC, not QB Coach, his third year, martz was sick in the hospital and fired before the year ended)

The whole point was his credibility in not "being sold" on Cassel, he was sold enough on O'Sullivan to bring him to San Fran. With 18-19 QBs he has one that he helped rise to some success in this league, yet "if there's one thing Martz knows it QBs" (quoted from Mecca earlier)

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 10:09 AM

Kurt Warner excelled at every level he ever played at. The few months that Martz actually worked with him at a minimal level didn't make any difference. He was ready to play, period.

This is the best article I've seen on the topic:
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/the-mind-mike-martz-teaches-the-science-of-offense-77765.html

Mike Martz is a phenomenal QBs coach. He is a tactician of the position and the one thing you can't argue, no matter how good Warner, Green, or Bulger, or any QB he's ever mentored have been, they have been absolutely flawless when it comes to fundamentals.

Don't confuse his inability to call a great gameplan with his ability to coach up QBs. And to say he didn't have any role in developing Green, Bulger, or Warner is basically saying that lightning magically struck in the same place 3 times in a short period of time.

Lzen

06-12-2009, 10:12 AM

1 video is obviously an example of the majority of his team with the Chiefs.

It's nice to like him and all but he was afforded as much time in the pocket as any QB could ever ask for.

Point was that you can't make up shit and expect everyone to buy your argument. 8 seconds? Gimme a damn break. And I think you are smart enough to know that any great pocket QB would not do as well with poor pass protection. That is a silly thing to argue.

Lzen

06-12-2009, 10:21 AM

meccas comments about bledsoe throwing for 5000 if hed been a chief should be enough for anyone who knows anything about NFL football. i read that and lol!

I must have missed that. That is awesome!! ROFL ROFL

beach tribe

06-12-2009, 10:26 AM

I give credit to Martz being around Green in his "impressionable" years as a starter in the NFL, and we reeped the majority of the reward. Warner was an undrafted backup, you think he was "groomed" by Martz to be an MVP? Maybe, but IMO - I don't see it. Bulger started one year under Martz (he's first year as a ram, he was a backup and Martz was OC, not QB Coach, his third year, martz was sick in the hospital and fired before the year ended)

The whole point was his credibility in not "being sold" on Cassel, he was sold enough on O'Sullivan to bring him to San Fran. With 18-19 QBs he has one that he helped rise to some success in this league, yet "if there's one thing Martz knows it QBs" (quoted from Mecca earlier)

I also have to add Marshal Faulk, Torry Holt, and Isaac bruce to this argument. These guys make QBs look real good.

Lzen

06-12-2009, 10:27 AM

This is the best article I've seen on the topic:
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/the-mind-mike-martz-teaches-the-science-of-offense-77765.html

Mike Martz is a phenomenal QBs coach. He is a tactician of the position and the one thing you can't argue, no matter how good Warner, Green, or Bulger, or any QB he's ever mentored have been, they have been absolutely flawless when it comes to fundamentals.

Don't confuse his inability to call a great gameplan with his ability to coach up QBs. And to say he didn't have any role in developing Green, Bulger, or Warner is basically saying that lightning magically struck in the same place 3 times in a short period of time.

As far as Warner, Martz's first year with the Rams was 1999. Warner played outstanding that year and lead the Rams to a SB victory. My question would be why are you giving Martz credit for his development? Seems to me that would take longer than the few months that they worked together in TC and OTAs.

Don't get me wrong. I believe Martz is a good tactician as coordinator and a good QB coach. He was not a good head coach. His ego got in the way too often, it seems.

Rausch

06-12-2009, 10:30 AM

But you are pointing to scheme, and not to the actual development. And you are making a ridiculous suggestion that the Arena League prepared Warner for the NFL. The arena league and NFL Europe helped him get recognized. But he still needed to be coached up a LOT to be prepared for the NFL.

Martz gets reckless when it comes to scheming and game management. That doesn't take away from the fact that he is outstanding at developing QBs.

Martz signed Warner and shipped him to NFLE.

Martz did not coach, or "develop," Warner while he was over there.

Warner comes back in as the b/u, and we all know how much time the b/u gets in the preseason. He was working on developing Green as the starter, not Warner.

Green continues as the starter until Green is friggen crippled in a preseason game. So with 3-4 weeks you think Martz, I mean QB Jesus, "groomed" or "developed" Warner into a league MVP?

Really?

Bill Walsh couldn't develop a QB in one offseason.

You can credit Martz with finding the perfect QB for his system, that's true. Valid point. Good call.

But to insinuate that Martz "developed" Warner?...LMAO

JD10367

06-12-2009, 10:31 AM

I also have to add Marshal Faulk, Torry Holt, and Isaac bruce to this argument. These guys make QBs look real good.

Yeah, but that's a chicken-and-egg argument. Hell, there are still people who think Brady is a "system QB" or is only good because of the offensive weapons around him.

I think the key for Martz is what was mentioned about the QBs and his lack of development. As much as guys like Brady and Cassel shocked Patriots fans, those guys were a.) drafted by Belichick, when other teams ignored them, b.) kept around on the roster even though fans didn't see why, and c.) elevated to backup states even though fans didn't see why. It's not like Martz is polishing gems into quarterbacks or something. His opinion of Cassel is no more or less valid or worthy than any other analyst, IMO.

Now, if, say, Joe Montana or Dan Marino has an opinion on Cassel, I'm all ears...

tk13

06-12-2009, 10:34 AM

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 10:35 AM

As far as Warner, Martz's first year with the Rams was 1999. Warner played outstanding that year and lead the Rams to a SB victory. My question would be why are you giving Martz credit for his development? Seems to me that would take longer than the few months that they worked together in TC and OTAs.

Don't get me wrong. I believe Martz is a good tactician as coordinator and a good QB coach. He was not a good head coach. His ego got in the way too often, it seems.

I realize that what you just read was largely a fluff piece, but read that article because it shows very specific evidence of things that he taught Warner. I thought it was great how he talked about muscle memory in teaching a QB balance and footwork. And it also speaks to the mentality of throwing in spots that Martz developed--a characteristic that was trademark Green and Warner. It sounds to me that his approach is geared toward getting QBs ready to go in a hurry. And I think the strongest evidence of Martz's influence is how uncannily similar Warner, Green, and Bulger are in their mechanics, fundamentals, and approach to the game. The thing about teaching mechanics is, it's the surest way to get quick improvement. You just have to untrain your muscles and then train them to do the right things--with enough practice, you can quickly train your muscles to do things automatically without even thinking about it.

I agree with you completely on the second point. He's too arrogant and too reckless to be a head coach or coordinator (though, I think he could be a good coordinator if he had a strong offensive coach above him). But this thread is trying to suggest that Martz doesn't have any credibility to critique Cassel. Given that Martz is a perfectionist on fundamentals, that tells us two things: 1) Martz is a very credible source on the topic; 2) given that Martz flips out about the slightest imperfections, it's possible he's making a big deal out of a small flaw. But do I trust that he's right on this? Absolutely. And I'm a huge fan of Cassel.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 10:36 AM

Martz signed Warner and shipped him to NFLE.

Martz did not coach, or "develop," Warner while he was over there.

Warner comes back in as the b/u, and we all know how much time the b/u gets in the preseason. He was working on developing Green as the starter, not Warner.

Green continues as the starter until Green is friggen crippled in a preseason game. So with 3-4 weeks you think Martz, I mean QB Jesus, "groomed" or "developed" Warner into a league MVP?

Really?

Bill Walsh couldn't develop a QB in one offseason.

You can credit Martz with finding the perfect QB for his system, that's true. Valid point. Good call.

But to insinuate that Martz "developed" Warner?...LMAO

Read the article. You apparently have not.

JD10367

06-12-2009, 10:38 AM

I think Martz is a solid QB coach. But he got a little lucky with Warner. But then again the Patriots got a little lucky with Brady. That's how it goes sometimes, a lucky break can make you a "genius".

Well, not to derail, but there were rumors that Belichick and his staff were unhappy with Bledsoe and were considering making the switch anyway. The vicious hit by the Jets that derailed Bledsoe's career probably just speeded it up a bit. But it was certainly a lucky break that Brady stuck around until the 6th round in the 2000 draft; if another team had bit, some other coach might look like a genius. But it happens that way; it was a lucky break for Cassel that Brady got injured. (The Chiefs have been good to Cassel twice now, LOL.)

Tribal Warfare

06-12-2009, 10:39 AM

I also have to add Marshal Faulk, Torry Holt, and Isaac bruce to this argument. These guys make QBs look real good.

Az Hakim and Ricky Proehl weren't slouches either

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 10:40 AM

This is the best article I've seen on the topic:
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/the-mind-mike-martz-teaches-the-science-of-offense-77765.html

Mike Martz is a phenomenal QBs coach. He is a tactician of the position and the one thing you can't argue, no matter how good Warner, Green, or Bulger, or any QB he's ever mentored have been, they have been absolutely flawless when it comes to fundamentals.

Don't confuse his inability to call a great gameplan with his ability to coach up QBs. And to say he didn't have any role in developing Green, Bulger, or Warner is basically saying that lightning magically struck in the same place 3 times in a short period of time.

So before Trent, he had Jim Everett for two years and Chris Chandler for one (while he had Chandler he had tommy maddox) as a QB Coach and failed to develop maddox into a starter over chandler? Then when he came back to the Rams he brings Trent (already gave him credit for starting the development of Trent) but as OC during the offseason, he developed his unknown backup, off the street, to be an MVP? I think you give him too much credit. Bulger he had one year with as a Ram, after Warner got hurt you could give him 1 1/2 years, but that third year with the Rams, Martz was in the hospital and ended up being fired when he tried to return to the team, the next year Bulger went to the probowl for his second of three trips (the first in 04 he was an injury replacement), you think Martz had more to do with Bulger's success than any other coach?

Rausch

06-12-2009, 10:40 AM

I realize that what you just read was largely a fluff piece, but read that article because it shows very specific evidence of things that he taught Warner. I thought it was great how he talked about muscle memory in teaching a QB balance and footwork. And it also speaks to the mentality of throwing in spots that Martz developed--a characteristic that was trademark Green and Warner. It sounds to me that his approach is geared toward getting QBs ready to go in a hurry. And I think the strongest evidence of Martz's influence is how uncannily similar Warner, Green, and Bulger are in their mechanics, fundamentals, and approach to the game. The thing about teaching mechanics is, it's the surest way to get quick improvement. You just have to untrain your muscles and then train them to do the right things--with enough practice, you can quickly train your muscles to do things automatically without even thinking about it.

Problem with that is Green's mechanics sucked when he first got here. He was flat out terrible his first year. Throwing off his back foot, not planting, etc. I know green had garbage to throw to but having poor WR's shouldn't alter the process of your throws.

If the poor mechanics were coached out of him it was done in KC by DV/Saunders...

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 10:41 AM

Yeah, but that's a chicken-and-egg argument. Hell, there are still people who think Brady is a "system QB" or is only good because of the offensive weapons around him.

I think the key for Martz is what was mentioned about the QBs and his lack of development. As much as guys like Brady and Cassel shocked Patriots fans, those guys were a.) drafted by Belichick, when other teams ignored them, b.) kept around on the roster even though fans didn't see why, and c.) elevated to backup states even though fans didn't see why. It's not like Martz is polishing gems into quarterbacks or something. His opinion of Cassel is no more or less valid or worthy than any other analyst, IMO.

Now, if, say, Joe Montana or Dan Marino has an opinion on Cassel, I'm all ears...

Just because you play the position well, doesn't mean you know how to coach it. Bernie Kosar was an outstanding QB--would you want him coaching guys on fundamentals, given his awkward throwing style? Would you want Dan Quisenberry teaching every pitcher how to pitch?

Martz has spent his entire life breaking down every last bit of fundamentals and mechanics on the guy. And he's spent his life coaching players on how to do it right. He has it down to literally a science. The one thing you can't argue is that the stars from his system were absolutely flawless fundamentally.

A lot of the great coaches were lousy players. I would trust a coach on this topic a hell of a lot more than I would trust an ex-player who's never coached in his life.

MOhillbilly

06-12-2009, 10:46 AM

Well, not to derail, but there were rumors that Belichick and his staff were unhappy with Bledsoe and were considering making the switch anyway. The vicious hit by the Jets that derailed Bledsoe's career probably just speeded it up a bit. But it was certainly a lucky break that Brady stuck around until the 6th round in the 2000 draft; if another team had bit, some other coach might look like a genius. But it happens that way; it was a lucky break for Cassel that Brady got injured. (The Chiefs have been good to Cassel twice now, LOL.)

Brian Cox?

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 10:51 AM

So before Trent, he had Jim Everett for two years and Chris Chandler for one (while he had Chandler he had tommy maddox) as a QB Coach and failed to develop maddox into a starter over chandler? Then when he came back to the Rams he brings Trent (already gave him credit for starting the development of Trent) but as OC during the offseason, he developed his unknown backup, off the street, to be an MVP? I think you give him too much credit. Bulger he had one year with as a Ram, after Warner got hurt you could give him 1 1/2 years, but that third year with the Rams, Martz was in the hospital and ended up being fired when he tried to return to the team, the next year Bulger went to the probowl for his second of three trips (the first in 04 he was an injury replacement), you think Martz had more to do with Bulger's success than any other coach?

Again, you're not going to hit a home run on every quarterback you develop. Chandler and Tommy Maddox weren't talented to begin with, and having a good QB means nothing if they operate in a poor scheme. St. Louis had a lousy scheme during those years.

As for Bulger, again... what did I say? You have to separate teaching mechanics from teaching scheme. And you have to throw out W-L records. The reason Bulger underachieved the first 2 seasons is because 1) he was learning the craft; 2) Martz's offensive scheme was wildly erratic. Martz prepared Bulger to be a fundamentally sound QB, but then he placed him in a bad scheme where the team passed way too often and it broke down protection, because teams were gunning for the pass.

As for Warner, again, read the article. Mechanics and fundamentals don't take a ton of time to unlearn/train--it's all about repetition and doing it the right way. And so, it's not ridiculous to believe that Martz got massive improvement from Warner in a very short period of time. I agree that Warner's grasp of X's and O's were probably largely developed before he got there, but Warner displays a lot of characteristics in his style of play that is signature Martz. As the article states, Martz was a huge proponent of training a QB to throw in spots. And Kurt Warner was a tactician of that very thing. Warner was probably a pretty good product under Vermeil's tutelage, but it's hard to deny that Martz was the guy to put him over the top.

And again, this topic is about Martz's credibility as a tactician of the QB position. Anybody who actually, seriously read the article, I don't know how anyone could possibly deny that the guy knows the position and is a very good authority to speak out about it.

Rausch

06-12-2009, 10:53 AM

Read the article. You apparently have not.

FROM YOUR ARTICLE:

"Muscle memory," he said. "That's what this is about. But it's not going to happen in 15 weeks."

Read the article. Supports my point.

MIKE MARTZ DID NOT MOLD WARNER IN 2 MONTHS...

DaWolf

06-12-2009, 10:58 AM

The only thing he said that was negative was that he had a tendency to hold the ball to long.

You don't think he himself hasn't noticed that and hasn't had coaches point that out to him yet?

Corretcable. Move on.

I was recently watching the story of the Pats first Super Bowl on NFLN and they had a piece where Brady was talking about how he noticed after a QB meeting that the QB coach had left on the table a notebook with notes on him as a QB and he picked it up and looked at it and it said things like "Slow to read a defense" and "Slow to deliver the ball" and he said that just pissed him off and he went out and made sure that he addressed those issues. If Cassel has the same makeup, he'll do the same thing.

As far as the whole talent argument goes, of course a QB isn't going to be as good without an all star cast around him. Brady on this team or Manning on this team wouldn't make the pro bowl. Heck, Kurt Warner has only been good in his career when he's been throwing to Holt and Bruce or Boldin and Fitzgerald. It's Pioli's job to get more talent for this offense. In the meantime, it is Haley and Gailey's job to adjust the current offense to take advantage of what the existing players can do...

Brock

06-12-2009, 10:59 AM

The reason Bulger underachieved the first 2 seasons is because 1) he was learning the craft; 2) Martz's offensive scheme was wildly erratic.

What? You're saying Martz turned Kurt Warner into a diamond in a couple of months, but he couldn't get Bulger to play to his potential in two seasons?

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 10:59 AM

FROM YOUR ARTICLE:

Read the article. Supports my point.

MIKE MARTZ DID NOT MOLD WARNER IN 2 MONTHS...

July, August, September
and a whole season to continue to reinforce the same fundamentals.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 11:02 AM

What? You're saying Martz turned Kurt Warner into a diamond in a couple of months, but he couldn't get Bulger to play to his potential in two seasons?

Bulger was a player with zero post college experience. And he was a guy operating in a poor scheme.

Again, Martz is NOT a good gameplanner. That has nothing to do with his ability to teach a QB the game. Like Solari, he is an outstanding football coach with no understanding of playcalling progressions.

Brock

06-12-2009, 11:05 AM

Bulger was a player with zero post college experience. And he was a guy operating in a poor scheme.

Okay, so Martz didn't develop Warner, just like I said.

Rausch

06-12-2009, 11:06 AM

July, August, September
and a whole season to continue to reinforce the same fundamentals.

He didn not have the full month of september.

Warner played well out of the gate.

Just like the HB coach then did not make Faulk.

They found the perfect piece for their offense and stuck it in there. All the credit in the world for that.

I'm not saying Martz is a bad QB coach, I'm saying you can't give him credit for developing Warner.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 11:10 AM

Problem with that is Green's mechanics sucked when he first got here. He was flat out terrible his first year. Throwing off his back foot, not planting, etc. I know green had garbage to throw to but having poor WR's shouldn't alter the process of your throws.

If the poor mechanics were coached out of him it was done in KC by DV/Saunders...

Well, what you're pointing to are fundamentals you develop when you are unsure of your protection. It's something that's hard to simulate in practice situations and especially behind a Rams' o-line that was absolutely stellar in game situations.

Those don't represent poor mechanics. That's just poor mechanics on a select situation and I think it's true that his QBs usually don't handle pressure well, which is a flaw in his coaching style. But that doesn't change the effect that absent a rush, Green's mechanics were always very fundamentally sound and, again, his mentality of throwing in spots were all elements that Martz coached him on.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 11:11 AM

Okay, so Martz didn't develop Warner, just like I said.

Develop isn't the right word. And if I used it, you're right, it's not the right way to phrase it.

But we're not talking about development here. We're talking about a coordinator analyzing a guy's fundamentals. And from a fundamentals standpoint, yes, Martz made Kurt Warner.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 11:13 AM

He didn not have the full month of september.

Warner played well out of the gate.

Just like the HB coach then did not make Faulk.

They found the perfect piece for their offense and stuck it in there. All the credit in the world for that.

I'm not saying Martz is a bad QB coach, I'm saying you can't give him credit for developing Warner.

But you're assuming that the 2 months prior to the season didn't count as part of his training time. And you're assuming that he didn't improve significantly as the season progressed, which he clearly did. He was good out the gate, and outstanding as the season closed.

The point is, starting to hammer fundamentals on a very coachable guy like Warner in July is enough time to get him to be a well-oiled machine. It's not like they had to teach him the entire scheme. They taught him fundamentals and a new mental approach to playing the position.

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 11:15 AM

Again, you're not going to hit a home run on every quarterback you develop. Chandler and Tommy Maddox weren't talented to begin with, and having a good QB means nothing if they operate in a poor scheme. St. Louis had a lousy scheme during those years.

As for Bulger, again... what did I say? You have to separate teaching mechanics from teaching scheme. And you have to throw out W-L records. The reason Bulger underachieved the first 2 seasons is because 1) he was learning the craft; 2) Martz's offensive scheme was wildly erratic. Martz prepared Bulger to be a fundamentally sound QB, but then he placed him in a bad scheme where the team passed way too often and it broke down protection, because teams were gunning for the pass.

As for Warner, again, read the article. Mechanics and fundamentals don't take a ton of time to unlearn/train--it's all about repetition and doing it the right way. And so, it's not ridiculous to believe that Martz got massive improvement from Warner in a very short period of time. I agree that Warner's grasp of X's and O's were probably largely developed before he got there, but Warner displays a lot of characteristics in his style of play that is signature Martz. As the article states, Martz was a huge proponent of training a QB to throw in spots. And Kurt Warner was a tactician of that very thing. Warner was probably a pretty good product under Vermeil's tutelage, but it's hard to deny that Martz was the guy to put him over the top.

And again, this topic is about Martz's credibility as a tactician of the QB position. Anybody who actually, seriously read the article, I don't know how anyone could possibly deny that the guy knows the position and is a very good authority to speak out about it.

I'll keep my rebuttal on Bulger as simple as I can;
Martz was the Offensive Coordinator for three years with Bulger, the first he started Warner, the second Bulger started, the third Martz was hosptialized. I'm really not considering W-L records in saying that his influence over Bulger.

I am saying that 1st as an OC and second as having "his guy" already and third being sick, out of the picture and fired that third year, he prolly didn't have as much influence as you say over Bulger.....

crazycoffey

06-12-2009, 11:19 AM

Bulger was a player with zero post college experience. And he was a guy operating in a poor scheme.

Again, Martz is NOT a good gameplanner. That has nothing to do with his ability to teach a QB the game. Like Solari, he is an outstanding football coach with no understanding of playcalling progressions.

you do realize the basis for this entire conversation started with the OP "Martz not sold on Cassel", went to Mecca with "One thing Martz knows is QBs", then to me "mecca, Martz doesn't know QBs like you think, prove me wrong"

And so far, mecca ran away, and everyone else took the discussion and went further than the point to begin with.

meccamist will show up and say something about my reading/posting/writing skills and not touch the topic again.....

whoman69

06-12-2009, 11:26 AM

EyePod

06-12-2009, 11:31 AM

I'm no martz or mecca, but I've been watching alot of cassel from last year, and it's colored me impressed. Have we found a saviour at QB, IDK. But he seems better than trent, imo anyway....

He's an upgrade over Thigpen too. He's like a super Thigpen. He can still run but he can also throw the ball more than 30 yards. I'm just worried about him not having his dump machine (Welker). I thought it was going to be Tony G., but we all know what happened there... still makes me sad..

Rausch

06-12-2009, 11:40 AM

The point is, starting to hammer fundamentals on a very coachable guy like Warner in July is enough time to get him to be a well-oiled machine.

And that's where I disagree with you.

July and August, two months, is not enough time to change a QB's mechanics and muscle memory.

The QB, working under Martz at the time of the article you linked, said it wouldn't happen in 15 weeks.

15 WEEKS.

He would know better than you or I...

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 11:44 AM

I'll keep my rebuttal on Bulger as simple as I can;
Martz was the Offensive Coordinator for three years with Bulger, the first he started Warner, the second Bulger started, the third Martz was hosptialized. I'm really not considering W-L records in saying that his influence over Bulger.

I am saying that 1st as an OC and second as having "his guy" already and third being sick, out of the picture and fired that third year, he prolly didn't have as much influence as you say over Bulger.....

Coffey, but Martz is the case of a guy who knows what he's good at. He is terrific at working with QBs and he's great at working with receivers. Most people in STL would argue that in his time in STL, he completely ignored his offensive line. Kind of like Holmgren--while he was a terrific OC and HC, you knew that his emphasis was on QBs. Same with Herm and D-backs. Or even Gun and his penchant for LBs. Those might be bad examples, but you get the point that Coordinators and Coaches tend to spend more time with the position that they like to coach. Without any evidence, I'm willing to bet that the majority of his time was spent with Bulger, especially when you consider that they were stocked with veterans at the receiver position (his other forte).

What I am saying is that given Bulger's style of play and his mechanics, it has Martz written all over it. Now, Martz didn't put him in a position to succeed because of poor scheming and neglect of the o-line, but I think he had a lot more influence in Bulger's being a tactician of the position than you might think.

chiefzilla1501

06-12-2009, 11:54 AM

And that's where I disagree with you.

July and August, two months, is not enough time to change a QB's mechanics and muscle memory.

The QB, working under Martz at the time of the article you linked, said it wouldn't happen in 15 weeks.

15 WEEKS.

He would know better than you or I...

But again, you are talking about this as if it were an absolute. That 15 weeks is standard for everyone. Or most importantly, that you won't improve significantly well before those 15 weeks are up. 15 weeks is how long it takes for muscle memory to work like clockwork. That doesn't mean that within those 15 weeks, you don't start to become markedly better at your game.

It's like teaching a golf swing. Are you going to be an expert in 15 weeks, despite massive repetition? No. In the first weeks of learning a new swing, you think a lot about what you're doing, and a lot of times you screw something up and you have to adjust. You spend a lot of time thinking and less doing. Over time, you begin to train yourself to do without thinking, but you occasionally make mistakes and you have to think through how to adjust upon that.

It's not like the process of improving muscle memory is a "switch of the lightbulb" where everything clicks at the same instant. As you train, you get a lot better. And I have no doubt in my mind that a guy who had been through hell and back to get to the NFL was training his heart out. July and August is more than enough time to get massive improvement out of a QB, if you train them in the right habits and you are consistent in enforcing those habits. The process is only prolonged when you as a coach are not good enough to enforce perfect fundamentals and mechanics, and if you're not observant enough to spot them after they screw up. Training mechanics is much quicker than training thinking, but it requires you to really know what you're doing.