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Tribal Warfare
08-06-2009, 02:12 PM
A Parcellsian Camp … Thursday Cup O’Chiefs (http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/a-parcellsian-camp-%E2%80%A6-thursday-cup-o%E2%80%99chiefs.html)
August 6, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

From River Falls, Wisconsin

The other day we wrote about the three major differences in Camp Pioli/Haley compared to previous Chiefs regimes. We mentioned the increased contact and conditioning and promised to address the third reason the next day.

Then Amani Toomer showed up and we got sidetracked with the old guys the Chiefs have added to the roster.

So now back to the third factor: the way the players are treated.

Understand that the biggest influence on Todd Haley’s coaching style was Bill Parcells. He worked on his staff with the Jets and then again with the Cowboys. This year’s Chiefs camp is very Parcellsian. The head coach is vocal and most of what he has to say is cutting and demanding. Injured players are made to work out by themselves, but close enough to the field to see their teammates. All the work is hard, long and physical.

And Haley isn’t worried about being anybody friend, or buddy, or father figure, or pal.

He wants workers, guys who show up each day and consistently work to get better. In what has now been a week in River Falls for his first camp, we have seen an organized, energized and motivated head coach. Haley has put his foot to the pedal for his team physically, mentally and emotionally. The players have no choice to get on the run, figuratively and physically.

All of it has led to grumbling, and some of the more veteran players on this team wonder how much longer this team can keep up the pace that Haley has set for it over the first eight practices. We won’t provide those players a forum for unnamed quotes, but we can say without equivocation that the roster is not completely thrilled with Camp Haley.

The head coach could care less. He’s poking and prodding his roster every day, learning more about how these guys tick. If a player is sensitive – and there are many who are – he’s going to have a hard time being part of Haley’s team. A list of the players who he has chastised or demanded greater effort from would cover the roster from top to bottom.

The receivers and quarterbacks – two areas where he has worked as an assistant coach and coordinator – have heard more from Haley than any other players. Nobody is immune, including Matt Cassel, including Bobby Engram, Zach Thomas, and Mike Vrabel and on.

All the players have learned – going back to the off-season program – that they don’t want to be injured. The guys on the rehab team often work harder there than they would during practice. Getting out of “no man’s land” as Haley called it the other day, is the goal of every player forced to ride the bikes, carry the weights and deal with all the other little drills they must go through. It includes not even mentioning those players by name. That really isn’t so much secrecy as it is trying to make the player more intent to get back into the discussion.

Haley wants players with two things: consistency and availability. He learned from Parcells that every player is hurt, but bones need to be broken or ligaments torn for a player to be injured. Players can get on the field if they understand that they are not injured, just hurt. Being sore is not an injury. Having a sprain is not an injury. Having a pull is not an injury.

This is very different from the way Dick Vermeil and Herm Edwards handled players when they were the head coach of the Chiefs. Both were demanding, but seldom criticized a player in front of his teammates. If you are a member of the Chiefs today and you haven’t been hit by a verbal barrage from Haley, you should probably start worrying. It means he doesn’t care or hasn’t noticed you.

Vermeil worked his players long and hard, but they could seldom do wrong in his eyes. It was his belief that if a player did something once, he could do it again and it was up to the coaching staff to pull that out of him. Edwards believed that if a player showed some talent, he wanted to see it again before he bought in.

Not only does Haley want to see the do it again, but he wants to see it consistently on an everyday and every practice basis. Anything less isn’t going to cut it.

Haley’s way works if the team produces victories. Players will not completely get on board with the program without eventually getting some sugar in return. They’ll go through the wall every day for a coach or a team if they see results, experience success and victories.

If it doesn’t happen, if this team struggles, the demanding nature of the head coach is not going to rally the troops.

There’s nothing unusual about the way Todd Haley is handling the players on a daily basis. He’s not plowing new ground in the coaching profession. It’s an old school approach that harkens back to the roots of what makes football the game that is so popular. It’s about being stronger, meaner, leaner and smarter than your opponent.

There are many different ways to coach a team built on those beliefs. Todd Haley’s way just happens to be different than what the Chiefs have seen in recent seasons.

JACKSON’S ABSENCE IS NOW A WEEK AND EIGHT PRACTICES

Another day, another two practices and Tyson Jackson falls further behind. No word on anything having to do with contract negotiations between the Chiefs and their first-round draft choice.

There was no change in the status of the nine unsigned first rounders on Wednesday.

Jackson is now the longest Chiefs first-round holdout since DT Ryan Sims in 2002. Sims did not sign until August 28th, missing the entire training camp. It was a bad start to what ended up being a bad stay in Kansas City for Sims.

Realistically, Jackson has not yet missed enough time to severely hamper his ability to catch up. The problem is if many more practices go by without him being at left defensive end, he’ll fall so far behind that he won’t be able to catch up. Jackson will be playing from back in the pack all season.

Not sure what type of conditioning Jackson is doing but there’s no way he’s getting done everything that he needs to get done to compete with what players are doing in camp. He can run, he can lift, but he can’t put himself in pads and bang around with other linemen. And nobody out there is going to ride his butt like defensive line coach Tim Krumrie.

SIGNINGS, INJURIES & MOVEMENT AROUND THE LEAGUE

BENGALS – placed TE Reggie Kelly on the injured-reserve list; signed TE Matt Sherry.

CARDINALS – signed FB Reagan Maui’a.

GIANTS – signed QB Eli Manning to a six-year, $97.5 million contract extension.

JETS - claimed WR Aundrae Allison on waivers (Vikings).

RAIDERS – signed OT Seth Wand; OT Khalif Barnes is expected to miss 6 to 8 weeks with a fractured ankle; released LB Chris O’Neill.

RAVENS – placed RT Adam Terry on the injured-reserve list; signed DT Nader Abdallah.

FROM THE PAGES OF CHIEFS HISTORY

On August 6, 1988 the Chiefs beat the Cincinnati Bengals 34-21 in a pre-season game at Arrowhead Stadium. With 31,947 fans in the stands, the Chiefs jumped to an early lead thanks to a 79-yard punt return from WR Kitrick Taylor. Later they added a 1-yard TD run by RB Herman Heard, a 2-yard run by FB James Saxon and then Saxon caught a 10-yard TD pass from QB Steve DeBerg. Saxon finished the game with 59 yards in total offense.

Shag
08-06-2009, 02:23 PM
Haley’s way works if the team produces victories. Players will not completely get on board with the program without eventually getting some sugar in return. They’ll go through the wall every day for a coach or a team if they see results, experience success and victories.

If it doesn’t happen, if this team struggles, the demanding nature of the head coach is not going to rally the troops.


While I'm really loving Haley's approach, this is what worries me. There is a very reasonable chance this team goes 1-7 in the first half of the season, and I worry that he may lose the team. Bad year for this type of schedule, IMHO, as the record may not be truly indicative of the progress of the team, and may hurt player buy-in to a new system and coach...

wasi
08-06-2009, 02:27 PM
While I'm really loving Haley's approach, this is what worries me. There is a very reasonable chance this team goes 1-7 in the first half of the season, and I worry that he may lose the team. Bad year for this type of schedule, IMHO, as the record may not be truly indicative of the progress of the team, and may hurt player buy-in to a new system and coach...

The most recent Red Zone podcast dealt with this. Gammon made a good point that players aren't going to buy in or a coach will lose his team no matter what approach he takes if the team isn't winning.

Winning is everything.

Amnorix
08-06-2009, 02:32 PM
While I'm really loving Haley's approach, this is what worries me. There is a very reasonable chance this team goes 1-7 in the first half of the season, and I worry that he may lose the team. Bad year for this type of schedule, IMHO, as the record may not be truly indicative of the progress of the team, and may hurt player buy-in to a new system and coach...

First, no coach loses a team in eight weeks unless he really, really f's it up. Parcells and Belichick had mediocre teams their first years with their various teams, for the most part.

Second, you mistakenly assume that the players he loses matter. The players that he does lose the first year are guys he won't want anyway. The turnover after this season will be tremendous. It will separate those who can handle and wnat to be part of the program, from those who won't, who will get the axe.

Bruce Armstrong is a perfect example. Former Pro Bowler near the end, he was a headache and locker room cancer the first year. Axe. Bledsoe never really completely bought in, then got hurt. Axe.

JuicesFlowing
08-06-2009, 02:34 PM
The most recent Red Zone podcast dealt with this. Gammon made a good point that players aren't going to buy in or a coach will lose his team no matter what approach he takes if the team isn't winning.

Winning is everything.


While I'm really loving Haley's approach, this is what worries me. There is a very reasonable chance this team goes 1-7 in the first half of the season, and I worry that he may lose the team. Bad year for this type of schedule, IMHO, as the record may not be truly indicative of the progress of the team, and may hurt player buy-in to a new system and coach...

I agree. I'm hoping Pioli/Haley have brought in enough of the "right kind of guys" to endure a bad start. I'm still drinking Pioli kool aid and I'm confident this whole thing won't implode 8 games into the season. Who knows. A lot of variables here.

Sweet Daddy Hate
08-06-2009, 02:36 PM
First, no coach loses a team in eight weeks unless he really, really f's it up. Parcells and Belichick had mediocre teams their first years with their various teams, for the most part.

Second, you mistakenly assume that the players he loses matter. The players that he does lose the first year are guys he won't want anyway. The turnover after this season will be tremendous. It will separate those who can handle and wnat to be part of the program, from those who won't, who will get the axe.

Bruce Armstrong is a perfect example. Former Pro Bowler near the end, he was a headache and locker room cancer the first year. Axe. Bledsoe never really completely bought in, then got hurt. Axe.

Excellent point. Is it any surprise that the guys who are grumbling are the same guys most of us would like to kick to the curb?

I think not.

Viva Haley!

chuxtrux
08-06-2009, 03:17 PM
Eh, I don't agree with Vermiel. It seems like he ripped guys all the time. Ryan Sims, Larry Johnson, Johnny Morton , etc.

bobbything
08-06-2009, 03:19 PM
The head coach could care less.
YES! It wouldn't be a true blog without improper grammar.

talastan
08-06-2009, 03:31 PM
Excellent point. Is it any surprise that the guys who are grumbling are the same guys most of us would like to kick to the curb?

I think not.

Viva Haley!

Sackintosh for example!! Curb his @ss Haley!!

Titty Meat
08-06-2009, 03:35 PM
Atleast we won't have to hear Herms bullshit when the Chiefs lose

CoMoChief
08-06-2009, 03:35 PM
The most recent Red Zone podcast dealt with this. Gammon made a good point that players aren't going to buy in or a coach will lose his team no matter what approach he takes if the team isn't winning.

Winning is everything.

Coaches dont play, players do.

If players want to win, they have to play hard and perform well. If they don't, they will lose, and will lose often in this league.

It's actually quite simple really.

Halfcan
08-06-2009, 03:36 PM
Jackson is looking more like a bad pick. He was damm lucky to get that spot-so he should take what he can get-It will be much higher than anything around the 18th or so slot-he was mocked at.

Titty Meat
08-06-2009, 03:38 PM
Jackson is looking more like a bad pick. He was damm lucky to get that spot-so he should take what he can get-It will be much higher than anything around the 18th or so slot-he was mocked at.

What he hasn't even played yet how can you say he's a bad pick?

"Bob" Dobbs
08-06-2009, 03:38 PM
YES! It wouldn't be a true blog without improper grammar.Heh. I was gonna mention that too. What really matters most of all is that it sure sounds like we have a REAL FUCKING COACH for the first time in quite a while. I'm diggin' it.

Halfcan
08-06-2009, 03:45 PM
What he hasn't even played yet how can you say he's a bad pick?

someone just posted that he has signed-so that is good news-if true.

I meant if he holds out camp like Simms did-Simms never caught on.

Fish
08-06-2009, 03:46 PM
What's with Gretz and the typos recently?

Mr. Krab
08-06-2009, 03:47 PM
Jackson is looking more like a bad pick. He was damm lucky to get that spot-so he should take what he can get-It will be much higher than anything around the 18th or so slot-he was mocked at.:spock:

DaneMcCloud
08-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Eh, I don't agree with Vermiel. It seems like he ripped guys all the time. Ryan Sims, Larry Johnson, Johnny Morton , etc.

Yeah, but it was bullshit.

He didn't really coach anyone up and he really didn't make anyone improve. He just jumped a few guys he didn't like.

I fucking hate Dick Vermeil and the damage he did to this franchise.

wasi
08-06-2009, 03:56 PM
Coaches dont play, players do.

If players want to win, they have to play hard and perform well. If they don't, they will lose, and will lose often in this league.

It's actually quite simple really.

and Gammon was saying it doesn't matter what method is used by the coach to try and get players to play hard and perform.

OnTheWarpath15
08-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Yeah, but it was bullshit.

He didn't really coach anyone up and he really didn't make anyone improve. He just jumped a few guys he didn't like.

I fucking hate Dick Vermeil and the damage he did to this franchise.

But, but...

13-3!

Circus offense!

Sweet Daddy Hate
08-06-2009, 04:00 PM
He signed.

Titty Meat
08-06-2009, 04:07 PM
So is Jackson still a bad pick?

Sweet Daddy Hate
08-06-2009, 04:11 PM
So is Jackson still a bad pick?

No.

Pioli is bad ass negotiator.

Baby Lee
08-06-2009, 05:33 PM
He learned from Parcells that every player is hurt, but bones need to be broken or ligaments torn for a player to be injured. Players can get on the field if they understand that they are not injured, just hurt. Being sore is not an injury. Having a sprain is not an injury. Having a pull is not an injury.

Now I've never broken a bone [knock wood], but as a guy who recently turned a minor strain into three full weeks of heavy pain by trying to tough it out and instead pulling muscles and ligaments from stem to stern in the same foot by favoring it, I have to question this at least a little.

Understand the sentiment, question the logic.

Dylan
08-06-2009, 10:11 PM
I like Haley's attitude. Seems like he is set on building a strong team around his system. He did build a strong offense in AZ.

I like disciplinarian style coaches. They tend to weed out the uncoachable players pretty quickly.

It takes a lot of hard work in getting players into tremendous shape. However, I believe, it takes a disciplinarian style coach to keep them there.

Dylan
08-06-2009, 10:18 PM
What's with Gretz and the typos recently?

He's lazy? :D

at home blogging ?

no copy pass editor?

LMAO

keg in kc
08-06-2009, 10:20 PM
Now I've never broken a bone [knock wood], but as a guy who recently turned a minor strain into three full weeks of heavy pain by trying to tough it out and instead pulling muscles and ligaments from stem to stern in the same foot by favoring it, I have to question this at least a little.

Understand the sentiment, question the logic.They have a training staff and facilities at their disposal that (I assume....) you don't. I don't see much of a problem with the logic with that in mind...