Michael Ash dives into Cassel v. Sanchez, and run defense

[Hammock Parties]

http://kan.scout.com/2/902665.html

This week’s “quarterback controversy” seems largely contrived.

Todd Haley certainly didn’t help the cause by being so forthcoming during his Tuesday press conference, but he was only responding to the questions asked – questions that were apparently being raised because of a theory floated by former Chief Bill Maas on local Kansas City radio.

Since Haley did his best to end the discussion Thursday, let’s shift away from the topic of Matt Cassel (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4210794) vs. Brodie Croyle (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307425) and talk about a quarterback controversy of a different sort - Cassel vs. Mark Sanchez (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4322198).

With the obvious disclaimer that it’s much, much too early to draw definitive conclusions about either player, Sanchez is off to a solid start in New York – 435 passing yards, two touchdowns, a 90.1 quarterback rating .

The Jets, who finished 9-7 a year ago, are more talented than the Chiefs, haven’t protected Sanchez the way rookie quarterbacks often are. While it would be incredibly easy for the Jets to ease him in slowly, relying on their defense and running game, they came out with a Week 1 game plan that saw Sanchez throw 31 passes.

Following the 2008 season, Warpaint Illustrated featured several editorials concerning the Chiefs’ need for a quarterback. That topic wasn’t well-received by those who thought Tyler Thigpen (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307555) had already proven himself worthy of the job.

Prior to the draft, even after the Chiefs had acquired Cassel from the Patriots, I wrote a column supporting the idea of the Chiefs still drafting Sanchez in case Cassel didn’t live up to expectations. After all, there’s nothing more important to a team than having a franchise quarterback. But that idea went over about as well as the notion of replacing Thigpen.

The Chiefs, of course, didn’t take Sanchez in April’s draft, and weren’t the only team to pass on him. The Rams had the draft’s second pick, and with 32 year-old Marc Bulger (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4269440) and former Raven Kyle Boller (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4272433) as their top two quarterbacks, surely there are some in St. Louis watching Sanchez and wondering, “what if?”

Likewise, the Seahawks – led by oft-injured 34 year-old Matt Hasselbeck (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4325362) – picked fourth and were heavily rumored to have interest in Sanchez. But it may have simply been a smoke screen, as they chose to take linebacker Aaron Curry (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4325346) instead. I’ve even seen it suggested that after the uninspiring play of Brady Quinn (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4209188) thus far, the Cleveland Browns – who allowed the Jets to move up and take Sanchez – should have a case of trader’s remorse.

Unlike the teams we just mentioned, though, the Chiefs had their minds made up well before the draft. Just after the Chiefs acquired their new quarterback, I wrote:

By trading for Cassel when the Chiefs were in position to draft a top-rated quarterback, our new general manager hasn’t wasted any time putting himself in the line of fire. . . . Pioli is telling us that Cassel is better than Tyler Thigpen. More importantly, he’s telling us that no matter how good Matt Stafford or Mark Sanchez may turn out to be, Cassel will be better.

Again, we’re a long way from knowing if Sanchez will actually prove to be a top-flight quarterback. Matt Leinart (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4249477) looked like a can’t-miss superstar in his first outings against the Chiefs and Bears a few seasons ago. Aside from nearly leading his team to victory, he also threw two touchdown passes in the first quarter of both games, the first rookie to ever accomplish that feat in the first two starts of his career. But over the course of the season, Leinart only threw multiple touchdowns in one other game, showing that hot starts don’t always last.

We’re also an extremely long way from drawing any conclusions about Cassel. But if Sanchez continues playing the way he has, it’s going to be an interesting story to follow throughout the season and beyond.


Is Kansas City’s run defense better than we think?

As noted here a few weeks ago, Kansas City’s rush defense only surrendered an average of 3.1 yards per carry during the preseason. If it held up, a mark like that would rank the Chiefs among the league’s best run-stopping units.

Many are quick to dismiss preseason stats, and with good reason, but we can’t ignore that the stats from the 2008 preseason proved to be a sign of things to come for the Chiefs’ defense. After allowing 4.9 yards per carry during the four exhibition games, the average allowed during the regular season was 5.0 – a difference of only one-tenth of a yard.

In this year’s season opener, the Chiefs’ allowed a poor 4.8 yards-per-carry average. But as we covered last week, it was a tale of two halves. Before halftime, the Chiefs held the Ravens to 3.3 yards per carry – right in line with their preseason numbers. In the second half, things fell apart, with the average rising to 5.6.

Did the run defense get worse as the game wore on because the sputtering offense left Chiefs’ defenders on the field too long? Or did the run defense look good early because the Ravens came out passing and weren’t focused on establishing a ground game?

The answer may have been a little clearer after the matchup with Oakland.

The Raiders officially rushed for just 67 yards on the day, a drastic turnaround from the 300-yard explosion they put up in Arrowhead a year ago. Removing the sack and scrambling yardage for JaMarcus Russell (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4249031), who lost three yards in total, the Chiefs allowed 70 yards on 22 rushing attempts. That’s an average of 3.1 yards per carry – a number that, again, is right in line with their preseason stats and their first half against Baltimore.

Based on that data, we could draw ever closer to the conclusion that the Chiefs actually have a legitimate run defense. That would mean the poor second half against the Ravens was indeed due to a worn-down, tired out squad.

But, once again, there’s a caveat that needs to be examined.

For reasons known only to the Raiders’ brain trust, Oakland didn’t focus on their running game throughout Sunday’s contest. Instead, they were content to repeatedly put the ball in Russell’s hands, who responded by only completing seven of his 24 pass attempts.

If you saw the Raiders’ season opener against San Diego, you saw them start off the game with a clear focus on running the ball. On their first two drives alone, they rushed for more yardage than they achieved throughout four quarters against the Chiefs.

Their bizarre strategy from Sunday makes it difficult to properly evaluate what we saw, leading to the same question we had coming out of Baltimore. Like the Ravens in the first half, if the Raiders had actually focused on running the ball during the game, would the Chiefs still have held them to such a low output? Or would they have eventually started giving up the big runs that plagued them a season ago?

It doesn’t seem like we’ll get an answer to that question until the Chiefs face a team that’s determined to get their ground game going.

But in the meantime, after the 300-yard disaster we saw last year, the Chiefs shutting down the run under any circumstance has to be a silver lining in what was otherwise a disappointing afternoon.

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[boogblaster]

Cassel vs Sanchez .. who knows ... Run D .. much improved ....

[doomy3]

"More importantly, he’s telling us that no matter how good Matt Stafford or Mark Sanchez may turn out to be, Cassel will be better."

One error in this logic though is that the Chiefs didn't have an opportunity to draft Stafford. I agree that Pioli decided he thought Cassel was better than Sanchez though.

[BigRock]

"More importantly, he’s telling us that no matter how good Matt Stafford or Mark Sanchez may turn out to be, Cassel will be better."

One error in this logic though is that the Chiefs didn't have an opportunity to draft Stafford. I agree that Pioli decided he thought Cassel was better than Sanchez though.

It says that was written right after the Cassel trade, so Stafford still would have been on the table at that point. It wasn't for sure that Detroit would take him #1 back in February.

[Mecca]

And that is the very point Pioli believes Cassel is going to be better than they are so basically he has to be right about this or we're fucked.

[ChiefsCountry]

As many don't want to admit, Cassel vs. Sanchez will live on for their careers, at least here in Kansas City. Hopefully for the Chiefs and all of us, Cassel shuts everybody up and becomes a franchise QB and leads us to mulitple Super Bowls. If not its going to be like Jim Schaff selected Blackledge over Marino.

[DeezNutz]

If not its going to be like Jim Schaff selected Blackledge over Marino.

At least that died down after awhile.

[Mecca]

As many don't want to admit, Cassel vs. Sanchez will live on for their careers, at least here in Kansas City. Hopefully for the Chiefs and all of us, Cassel shuts everybody up and becomes a franchise QB and leads us to mulitple Super Bowls. If not its going to be like Jim Schaff selected Blackledge over Marino.

It'll probably be even worse than that, the team that drafted Sanchez means that if he's good he's going to be on TV all the time.

[JD10367]

That site seems to be the "Seinfeld" of sports reporting. You spend time reading it, and then realized it was all about absolutely nothing.

[JD10367]

As many don't want to admit, Cassel vs. Sanchez will live on for their careers, at least here in Kansas City. Hopefully for the Chiefs and all of us, Cassel shuts everybody up and becomes a franchise QB and leads us to mulitple Super Bowls. If not its going to be like Jim Schaff selected Blackledge over Marino.

Here's the thing: it's all a frigging crapshoot. The Patriots drafted Drew Bledsoe #1, and it was a toss-up between him and Rick Mirer, who went #2. Peyton Manning, #1; Ryan Leaf, #2. Tom Brady: 6th round... passed over a shitload of times by many teams, INCLUDING the Patriots.

It wasn't as much about whether or not Sanchez was for real; it was more about whether or not it was worth the RISK that he was for real. To use a pick that high, to pay him all that money when he'd never taken a snap in the NFL.

And, again, let's not line up to play tonsil-hockey with Sanchez's danglies just yet. It's two games in. And that last one, the Patriots played such piss-poor defense that my dead grandmother could've made those throws. Sanchez's uni was whiter than Conan O'Brien's skin. He had a bigger pocket than Tom Arnold on a NY subway train after eating ten Taco Bell burritos. It's easy to look great when you have all the time in the world and no pressure. Let's see what happens over the course of a season before we carve his bust for Canton.

[htismaqe]

At least that died down after awhile.

ROFL

The sarcasm is strong with this one.

[Brock]

This is the Chiefs. We all know how it'll turn out.

[Saccopoo]

It'll probably be even worse than that, the team that drafted Sanchez means that if he's good he's going to be on TV all the time.

http://www.everyjoe.com/squibkick/files/2009/04/mark-sanchez-nc-iosphotos058551-ncaa-football-south.jpg

Yummy!

[Reerun_KC]

This is the Chiefs. We all know how it'll turn out.

This....

We Epic Fail when learning from past mistakes....

Someday, someone will have the balls to make a change in Chiefs Epic Fail history, until then.... All you can do is LMAO at them...

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

That site seems to be the "Seinfeld" of sports reporting. You spend time reading it, and then realized it was all about absolutely nothing.

This.

Here's the thing: it's all a frigging crapshoot. The Patriots drafted Drew Bledsoe #1, and it was a toss-up between him and Rick Mirer, who went #2. Peyton Manning, #1; Ryan Leaf, #2. Tom Brady: 6th round... passed over a shitload of times by many teams, INCLUDING the Patriots.

It wasn't as much about whether or not Sanchez was for real; it was more about whether or not it was worth the RISK that he was for real. To use a pick that high, to pay him all that money when he'd never taken a snap in the NFL.

And, again, let's not line up to play tonsil-hockey with Sanchez's danglies just yet. It's two games in. And that last one, the Patriots played such piss-poor defense that my dead grandmother could've made those throws. Sanchez's uni was whiter than Conan O'Brien's skin. He had a bigger pocket than Tom Arnold on a NY subway train after eating ten Taco Bell burritos. It's easy to look great when you have all the time in the world and no pressure. Let's see what happens over the course of a season before we carve his bust for Canton.

I was with you until you arrived here. I seem to recall Baltimore playing dick-slap with that O-line like a two ruble Russian whore at a Summer vodka and sausage festival. Don't discount Sanchez ability to avoid pressure and avoid it well. He takes wider roll-outs than anyone I've seen in a while, and he knows how to get the job done when doing so.
Just sayin'.

[ChiefsCountry]

Sanchez's uni was whiter than Conan O'Brien's skin.

Last time I checked Meadowlands has FieldTurf. :)

[JD10367]

Last time I checked Meadowlands has FieldTurf. :)

Point being, the Patriots didn't come near the kid. He was able to release a pass, then stand there and admire it on its way to the receiver, 'cause there STILL wasn't a Patriot within three feet of him.

I'm not saying the kid will suck. He may turn out to be great. Or he may turn out to be terribly average. But starting 2-0, especially when a Patriots team's defense barely gets near you, doesn't guarantee he's going to be great.

Ranking QBs is kinda weird anyway. Some guys have natural talents but don't do as well as you'd expect them to. Other guys have intangibles that add up to more than the sum of their parts. I'm hoping Cassel is one of those guys.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Cassel=Second round pick.

We should not forget that in our analysis.

With that said, it is hard not to be impressed with Sanchez. He is on a much better team, so it's hard to compare the two.

The Chiefs gave up their second round pick for Cassel. It is about building a complete team. Getting Cassel for a #2 allowed the Chiefs to shore up their DL with their first round pick.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Cassel=Second round pick.

We should not forget that in our analysis.

With that said, it is hard not to be impressed with Sanchez. He is on a much better team, so it's hard to compare the two.

The Chiefs gave up their second round pick for Cassel. It is about building a complete team. Getting Cassel for a #2 allowed the Chiefs to shore up their DL with their first round pick.

I think you'd have to mind wipe this entire board to forget that.

But...but..Retardian told me they sucked, and had no chance of going 500.

[ChiefGator]

It is about building a complete team. Getting Cassel for a #2 allowed the Chiefs to shore up their DL with their first round pick.

Agreed.

And, frankly, we shouldn't have even had a shot at Sanchez. The dreadful Rams should have taken him with Stafford off the board. Their mistake. But, we had no way of knowing he would drop to us at all.

Cassel was available for a second and Pioli felt he could build around him and that he could possibly be the franchise guy. You make that trade every time.

[Mr. Laz]

sanchez benefits from being on a good team with a good oline and a great defense.

the jets rank

17th in points
19th in yrds
31st in passing attempts

Sanchez might turn out to be a great QB but there hasn't been much expected of him thus far. The article is faulty, the Jets are protecting Sanchez big time.

you switch the pieces and you will get Cassel with success and Sanchez looking rough.

[Chiefnj2]

I think Sanchez would look bad in KC. I don't think Cassel would have looked as good Sanchez in NY. Sanchez has made some nice throws.

[ChiefsCountry]

Fantasy Football drives way to much on how people think anymore. Aikman never put up great numbers yet we all would want him.

I find it ironic that Patriots fans keep bashing us about it when they are the ones who are fucked. Pioli and Mangina screwed them over by giving Sanchez to the Jets. Enjoy the next decade of getting your ass kicked by the Jets.

[ChiefsCountry]

I think Sanchez would look bad in KC. I don't think Cassel would have looked as good Sanchez in NY. Sanchez has made some nice throws.

I agree with this.

[Marcellus]

And that is the very point Pioli believes Cassel is going to be better than they are so basically he has to be right about this or we're fucked.

Hyperbole (pronounced /hʌɪˈpə:rbəli/[1], from ancient Greek "ὑπερβολή", meaning excess or exaggeration) is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

I really hope your not serious. Cassel does not have to be as good or better than Sanchez to be considered a success.

He does have to be good enough to contribute and Pioli has to make this team a winner or else he looks bad.

Not a fucking thing to do with who has a better personnel career.

Who do you think is better QB, Rothlisberger or Payton Manning? Who has more rings?

[T-post Tom]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nXPfVU2dDOw/ShLuuqNjIkI/AAAAAAAAAj4/ZO4NGa8mhXk/s400/mark+sanchez.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2556309248_0275c64c62.jpg?v=0

http://www.kcchiefsfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tyler-thigpen-and-skeleton.jpg

http://union.sportsblognet.com/files/2008/10/kellie_croyle_brodie_croyle.jpg

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I agree with this.

I agree with half of it.

[HemiEd]

Agreed.

And, frankly, we shouldn't have even had a shot at Sanchez. The dreadful Rams should have taken him with Stafford off the board. Their mistake. But, we had no way of knowing he would drop to us at all.

Cassel was available for a second and Pioli felt he could build around him and that he could possibly be the franchise guy. You make that trade every time.

This. Timing was everything.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Agreed.

And, frankly, we shouldn't have even had a shot at Sanchez. The dreadful Rams should have taken him with Stafford off the board. Their mistake. But, we had no way of knowing he would drop to us at all.

Cassel was available for a second and Pioli felt he could build around him and that he could possibly be the franchise guy. You make that trade every time.

I'd say you make that trade if you already know what you're getting, as was the case here,

The rest of this post makes no sense whatsoever. You knew Stafford was going to Detroit. The Rams knew we had Cassel. If the Rams wanted Sanchez, he was there for the taking. To sign or hold hostage; he was there.

[milkman]

sanchez benefits from being on a good team with a good oline and a great defense.

the jets rank

17th in points
19th in yrds
31st in passing attempts

Sanchez might turn out to be a great QB but there hasn't been much expected of him thus far. The article is faulty, the Jets are protecting Sanchez big time.

you switch the pieces and you will get Cassel with success and Sanchez looking rough.

Yeah.

You are jsut quting stats with out actually having watched a game.

Sanchez is playing abve expectations, and in the game against the Texans, the Jets running game didn't get going until the fourth quarter.

And here's a stat for you.

3rd and 7 or longer in the two game, 11-14 for 246 yards.

[Mecca]

Hyperbole (pronounced /hʌɪˈpə:rbəli/[1], from ancient Greek "ὑπερβολή", meaning excess or exaggeration) is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

I really hope your not serious. Cassel does not have to be as good or better than Sanchez to be considered a success.

He does have to be good enough to contribute and Pioli has to make this team a winner or else he looks bad.

Not a fucking thing to do with who has a better personnel career.

Who do you think is better QB, Rothlisberger or Payton Manning? Who has more rings?

In case you didn't know the Steelers didn't choose Roethlisberger over Manning like the Chiefs did in this case.

If Cassel ends up as a league average QB and Sanchez is considered a franchise guy guess what the grade on that trade is?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I like the way the Jets went from "Meh-blah-suck" by the Pro Trade crowd, to "they're obviously a better team and kick much ass"!

I wish that football fairy with the magic fucking wand would swing by Arrowhead one of these days.:rolleyes:

[Mecca]

I remember being told the Jets would win 4 games.

Now all of the sudden they're a great team and Sanchez isn't doing anything.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I remember being told the Jets would win 4 games.

Now all of the sudden they're a great team and Sanchez isn't doing anything.

"Game Manager":rolleyes:

[chiefzilla1501]

I remember being told the Jets would win 4 games.

Now all of the sudden they're a great team and Sanchez isn't doing anything.

A bit of an exaggeration. Anyone who said Sanchez isn't doing anything is a moron.

The point, and it's a valid one, is that the Jets' biggest improvement by far is on defense. And that Sanchez has a ton more talent around him than Cassel does.

The question is whether Sanchez could achieve the same kind of results if he was on the Chiefs. That's a question nobody can answer. And yet, there are some who are already suggesting that the Chiefs screwed up by not drafting Sanchez.

I'm against snap judgments either way. Those who are already saying missing Sanchez was a mistake are idiots. Those who are saying Cassel is better than Sanchez are idiots.

[OnTheWarpath15]

A bit of an exaggeration. Anyone who said Sanchez isn't doing anything is a moron.

The point, and it's a valid one, is that the Jets' biggest improvement by far is on defense. And that Sanchez has a ton more talent than Cassel does.

FYP.

*had to be done

[chiefzilla1501]

FYP.

*had to be done

Who has more talent? Big Ben or Eli Manning? Philip Rivers or Jay Cutler?

I think Sanchez has more talent, but it's not like Cassel doesn't have any talent. Because talent is only a part of the equation in a QB's success. And in terms of how each QB contributes to their respective team, we don't fucking know, and yet people are trying to act as if that evaluation can be made after one game.

[htismaqe]

In case you didn't know the Steelers didn't choose Roethlisberger over Manning like the Chiefs did in this case.

If Cassel ends up as a league average QB and Sanchez is considered a franchise guy guess what the grade on that trade is?

If Cassel ends up as a league average QB, we get a new one and move on.

[Mecca]

If Cassel ends up as a league average QB, we get a new one and move on.

That's easy to say but this team hasn't been able to find a QB basically in my lifetime.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That's easy to say but this team hasn't been able to find a QB basically in my lifetime.

Nor mine.

Lenny was in the twilight of his career when I was born.

[chiefzilla1501]

If Cassel ends up as a league average QB, we get a new one and move on.

Added on top of that, Cassel shouldn't have to prove he's better than Sanchez. Eli Manning isn't better than Philip Rivers. But could Rivers have been as successful with the Giants as Eli is? I don't think he would be. Take Joe Montana out of a West Coast offense... is it possible he might not have been the quarterback he became?

A quarterback's success is not just about talent. Or about production. Often times, it's about being in the right situation surrounded by the right people. Rather than obsess over who we should have taken, how about we just keep a close eye on Cassel and see if he improves as he becomes more comfortable with the Chiefs' offense and the Chiefs' receivers.

[whoman69]

Cassel=Second round pick.

We should not forget that in our analysis.

With that said, it is hard not to be impressed with Sanchez. He is on a much better team, so it's hard to compare the two.

The Chiefs gave up their second round pick for Cassel. It is about building a complete team. Getting Cassel for a #2 allowed the Chiefs to shore up their DL with their first round pick.


Spot on. At that point to pick a QB after just picking up a young QB that we were obviously going to tie some money into would have been idiotic. You can't place all your eggs in the QB basket and then leave an obviously inadequate d-line alone. We essentially were left with the same crap on the O-line. If any second guessing is due it should not be in the fact we picked up Cassel, but in why we didn't pick up protection for him and the run game.

[chiefzilla1501]

Spot on. At that point to pick a QB after just picking up a young QB that we were obviously going to tie some money into would have been idiotic. You can't place all your eggs in the QB basket and then leave an obviously inadequate d-line alone. We essentially were left with the same crap on the O-line. If any second guessing is due it should not be in the fact we picked up Cassel, but in why we didn't pick up protection for him and the run game.

Agree wholeheartedly.

I'm not upset about the QB decision just yet. Not getting an o-line was absolutely inexcusable.

[Mecca]

Because we couldn't have signed Canty and Olshansky combined for cheaper than Jackson...and then used the 2nd round pick on an Olineman....

[OnTheWarpath15]

Because we couldn't have signed Canty and Olshansky combined for cheaper than Jackson...and then used the 2nd round pick on an Olineman....

Take your pick:

Maualuga
Britton
Brace
Sintim
Barwin
E. Brown
Unger
Levitre

Would have sucked to pick any of them.

[htismaqe]

That's easy to say but this team hasn't been able to find a QB basically in my lifetime.

My lifetime either. I just barely remember them drafting Blackledge.

But yes, it is easy to say. Law of averages says we'll find one eventually - if it's not Cassel, it might be the next guy, or the next one after that.

I can't make it happen any faster, so there's no sense in stewing over it.

[Mecca]

Take your pick:

Maualuga
Britton
Brace
Sintim
Barwin
E. Brown
Unger
Levitre

Would have sucked to pick any of them.

Which is why I laugh when I read posts like "this was how we had to do it" no it wasn't there were numerous options.

[htismaqe]

Because we couldn't have signed Canty and Olshansky combined for cheaper than Jackson...and then used the 2nd round pick on an Olineman....

We could have.

But we didn't.

[Mecca]

We could have.

But we didn't.

Which simply plays into my point of, don't act like this is how we had to do things. We couldn't draft a QB because we had to take a DL, when that isn't exactly the case.

[htismaqe]

Which simply plays into my point of, don't act like this is how we had to do things. We couldn't draft a QB because we had to take a DL, when that isn't exactly the case.

We could have done things a myriad of ways, true.

Regardless, it's already been done and it was done THIS way. For better or worse, it's what we have to live with for the near future.

[Mecca]

We could have done things a myriad of ways, true.

Regardless, it's already been done and it was done THIS way. For better or worse, it's what we have to live with for the near future.

The thing is most of the people who don't like the moves aren't even playing hindsight.

I'll just frankly say I've been heavily disappointed with this offseason.

[chiefzilla1501]

Which simply plays into my point of, don't act like this is how we had to do things. We couldn't draft a QB because we had to take a DL, when that isn't exactly the case.

While true, I hardly think that the Chiefs passed on Canty/Olshansky because they were waiting to draft Tyson Jackson. I'm not sure why they passed. But once we made the decision to pass on those two, then yes, drafting Jackson became a pretty high priority.

I agree. I would have rather taken Olshansky/Canty. But even if you take those two, you can still draft BJ Raji and trade for Cassel. And that's still a pretty good 1-2 combo.

[stevieray]

For better or worse, it's what we have to live with for the near future.

It truly is that simple

[Mecca]

So if we're not gonna talk about anything cause we "have what we have" why do we have a forum again?

[htismaqe]

The thing is most of the people who don't like the moves aren't even playing hindsight.

That's not true at all, man.

[KCChiefsMan]

the Jets o-line is a lot better than ours

[Mecca]

That's not true at all, man.

The people who are thought of at the forefront of being anti this or anti that, have the same views they had months ago.

It wasn't like it was some major flip flopping move after they saw the results.

[Mecca]

the Jets o-line is a lot better than ours

Yea, their head coach is alot better than ours too.

[htismaqe]

So if we're not gonna talk about anything cause we "have what we have" why do we have a forum again?

What's the difference between discussing something and incessant harping?

It's not that we can't, or shouldn't, discuss such things.

But it's not productive, and slightly silly, to have the discussion after EVERY game turn into "if we'd only drafted X".

We didn't draft X. Why not discuss moves that could be made in the FUTURE rather than dwell on the past?

[chiefzilla1501]

So if we're not gonna talk about anything cause we "have what we have" why do we have a forum again?

Because a lot of the hypotheticals people pose are situations that you have no idea if it would improve or hurt the team. Who's to say Cassel couldn't do the same thing with the Jets, and whose to say Sanchez wouldn't struggle with the Chiefs?

I understand the argument about missing out on guys like Olshansky and Canty. Because we had a chance to pick them up, and instead chose to do nothing. In the QB situation, we chose one QB over the other. I don't understand the obsession with comparing two quarterbacks cast in totally different situations. If Cassel does well as a Chief, we made the right decision. If Cassel struggles as a Chief, we made the wrong decision. Sanchez shouldn't even matter at this point.

[htismaqe]

The people who are thought of at the forefront of being anti this or anti that, have the same views they had months ago.

It wasn't like it was some major flip flopping move after they saw the results.

Never accused anybody of flip-flopping. Far from it. Flip-flopping might actually be refreshing - the arguments around here are pretty stale.

Furthermore, it's not flip-flopping to accept reality and move on. Nor is it flip-flopping to be happy if something works out, even if you were initially against it.

[Mecca]

Never accused anybody of flip-flopping. Far from it. Flip-flopping might actually be refreshing - the arguments around here are pretty stale.

Furthermore, it's not flip-flopping to accept reality and move on. Nor is it flip-flopping to be happy if something works out, even if you were initially against it.

I can't do that flop stuff. I didn't like Cassel before he was traded for, I can't 180 my view because he put the Arrowhead on his helmet. That just isn't how I do things and is the definition of being a homer.

Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but to go back and look at the Cassel thread where basically 9 out of 10 people didn't want him then to see the 180's done after the trade do amuse me.

[htismaqe]

I can't do that flop stuff. I didn't like Cassel before he was traded for, I can't 180 my view because he put the Arrowhead on his helmet. That just isn't how I do things and is the definition of being a homer.

Whoa.

First of all, there's a HUGE difference between saying "YEAH! Matt Cassel rules!" and saying "well, he's our QB, I'm gonna get behind him".

Second, are you saying that because you were against the trade, that if you turn out to be WRONG, you're not going to enjoy it, because that would make you a "homer"?

Sorry man, but that's just downright dumb.

Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but to go back and look at the Cassel thread where basically 9 out of 10 people didn't want him then to see the 180's done after the trade do amuse me.

Again, I don't see alot of people here that didn't want to trade him that are now singing his praises. Far from it. But that doesn't mean we have to bitch every moment that he's here - that's a pretty miserable existence, considering he's here and we can't change that.

[Mecca]

I'm saying that until he proves he's good I'm going to be skeptical because I was skeptical before he was a part of the Chiefs.

You can go pull up the thread when there was a trade rumor and a good majority did not want him, then that all changed when it actually happened.

[htismaqe]

I'm saying that until he proves he's good I'm going to be skeptical because I was skeptical before he was a part of the Chiefs.

You can go pull up the thread when there was a trade rumor and a good majority did not want him, then that all changed when it actually happened.

Pretty much everybody here is skeptical. Not bringing it up every 5 minutes doesn't make them less skeptical than anybody else.

And yes, I could bring up such threads. They absolutely exist. The problem is that you can't distinguish concession from satisfaction.

You won't find many, if ANY, people that were anti-trade that are HAPPY that we have Cassel. You'll find almost all of them realize that we have Cassel and we can't change that, so we might as well support him.

This isn't an either/or proposition. Holding fast to a completely polarized point-of-view isn't noble or principled. It's simply stubborn.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

If Cassel ends up as a league average QB, we get a new one and move on.

HELLO?!

[Mecca]

I am stubborn until the player proves my initial thought of him wrong.

[htismaqe]

HELLO?!

I know, I know. You brought this up in another thread.

It doesn't make it any less tangential.

[Mecca]

I would say if Cassel isn't the guy and we have to get another QB, that's a much bigger deal than oh well just get another one. Fuck ups on decisions like that get people fired.

[htismaqe]

I am stubborn until the player proves my initial thought of him wrong.

That's cool, man. I'm not going to begrudge you your opinion. I'm just hoping that maybe you'll return to the favor once in a while, and not just to me.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I know, I know. You brought this up in another thread.

It doesn't make it any less tangential.

JesusMotherfuckingChrist.:banghead:

[htismaqe]

I would say if Cassel isn't the guy and we have to get another QB, that's a much bigger deal than oh well just get another one. **** ups on decisions like that get people fired.

So Haley gets fired.

Or Pioli.

And guess what? We hire a new GM and a new head coach.

I still don't have any control over it.

[Mecca]

That's cool, man. I'm not going to begrudge you your opinion. I'm just hoping that maybe you'll return to the favor once in a while, and not just to me.

Some guys do, some guy's don't, Tamba Hali never has and I went round and round about him numerous times.

Pollard never did either.

[Mecca]

So Haley gets fired.

Or Pioli.

And guess what? We hire a new GM and a new head coach.

I still don't have any control over it.

I would say Pioli since I assume that was his call, if we're here 4 years later and it hasn't panned out, I'd wave by to him for that.

[htismaqe]

JesusMother****ingChrist.:banghead:

Dude, it's ok.

You wanted Sanchez and you won't let it go.

You made a statement that unequivocally said that you won't accept Cassel until he proves he's better than Sanchez.

If you want to now try to say that you weren't talking about Sanchez and instead talking about what might happen IF Cassel doesn't pan out, more power to you.

It's all right there in that thread in black and white what was being discussed.

[htismaqe]

I would say Pioli since I assume that was his call, if we're here 4 years later and it hasn't panned out, I'd wave by to him for that.

I would to.

[htismaqe]

Some guys do, some guy's don't, Tamba Hali never has and I went round and round about him numerous times.

Pollard never did either.

I'm sure that I was one of the guys you went round and round with.

[Mecca]

I would to.

What bothers me is I don't trust the Chiefs to do that...

[Mecca]

I'm sure that I was one of the guys you went round and round with.

Possibly, I remember arguing with a lot of people going into that draft.

[htismaqe]

What bothers me is I don't trust the Chiefs to do that...

You don't have any reason to - Carl was here for 20 years and knowing you from talking to you here, he's the only GM you've ever known.

That being said, the Chiefs have also had exactly ONE owner in their entire existence. Basing future precedent on a past with such a tiny sample size isn't logical at all. The chances of the last 20 years repeating are remote, simply because of the law of averages.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Dude, it's ok.

You wanted Sanchez and you won't let it go.

You made a statement that unequivocally said that you won't accept Cassel until he proves he's better than Sanchez.

If you want to now try to say that you weren't talking about Sanchez and instead talking about what might happen IF Cassel doesn't pan out, more power to you.

It's all right there in that thread in black and white what was being discussed.

I don't deny anything. I think Cassel is Trent Green at best, a big weenie head failure at worst, and neither is good enough to consistently win Championships.

No excuses, no diversions; it is what it is.

[Hammock Parties]

I think Cassel is Trent Green at best.

If he's Trent Green with mobility he's a lot better than Trent Green...

[RippedmyFlesh]

Because we couldn't have signed Canty and Olshansky combined for cheaper than Jackson...and then used the 2nd round pick on an Olineman....
I can't say for sure that we didn't try. I'm a chiefs fan but selling a 2-14 team to a free agent prob isn't easy.You can say everyone has a price but it wasn't like kc was going to double someone else's offer.KC has to get to at least respectable before upper level free agents even listen.

[Chiefnj2]

What's wrong with Cassel being Trent Green? In his years with Vermeil he averaged a 62% completion percentage, 22TDs, 15 INTs and over 4,000 yards a year. Surround that with a good defense and you can win championships.

[RippedmyFlesh]

What's wrong with Cassel being Trent Green? In his years with Vermeil he averaged a 62% completion percentage, 22TDs, 15 INTs and over 4,000 yards a year. Surround that with an average defense and you can win championships.

FYP

[Hammock Parties]

What's wrong with Cassel being Trent Green?

If Sanchez turns out to be Steve Young, the Chiefs trading for Trent Green looks dumb.

[OnTheWarpath15]

What's wrong with Cassel being Trent Green? In his years with Vermeil he averaged a 62% completion percentage, 22TDs, 15 INTs and over 4,000 yards a year. Surround that with a good defense and you can win championships.

Stats are nice, but if you made me pick a QB that had to lead a game winning TD drive, or one of my family members got a bullet to the brain, Trent Green doesn't come to mind in the first few HOURS I'm considering who to pick.

[OnTheWarpath15]

If Sanchez turns out to be Steve Young, the Chiefs trading for Trent Green looks dumb.

I see what you did there.

[Chiefnj2]

Stats are nice, but if you made me pick a QB that had to lead a game winning TD drive, or one of my family members got a bullet to the brain, Trent Green doesn't come to mind in the first few HOURS I'm considering who to pick.

I guess you don't mind mopping up mom's gray matter.

"played six seasons with Kansas City and is among team’s all-time passing leaders…Chiefs’ all-time leader in completion percentage (61.9%), passer rating (87.3), average gain per attempt (7.73) and completions of 20 yards or longer (261)…ranks second in team history in attempts (3,696), completions (2,115), yards (28,507) and touchdown passes (237)… threw 159 passes without an interception from 10/2/05-11/13/05…has rallied his teams form a fourth quarter deficit for a victory on 15 occasions"

[htismaqe]

I don't deny anything. I think Cassel is Trent Green at best, a big weenie head failure at worst, and neither is good enough to consistently win Championships.

No excuses, no diversions; it is what it is.

So you've predetermined that Cassel will be a failure.

Fair enough.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I guess you don't mind mopping up mom's gray matter.

"played six seasons with Kansas City and is among team’s all-time passing leaders…Chiefs’ all-time leader in completion percentage (61.9%), passer rating (87.3), average gain per attempt (7.73) and completions of 20 yards or longer (261)…ranks second in team history in attempts (3,696), completions (2,115), yards (28,507) and touchdown passes (237)… threw 159 passes without an interception from 10/2/05-11/13/05…has rallied his teams form a fourth quarter deficit for a victory on 15 occasions"

Wow.

15 times in 10 seasons.

To put that in perspective, Ben Roethlisberger has 19, IIRC, in 4 seasons.

You can pull all the stats you want, anyone who thinks of the word "clutch" when thinking of Green must be borrowing Terri Schiavo's brain.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

So you've predetermined that Cassel will be a failure.

Fair enough.

He'll be good enough to drag people's expectations and hopes along far enough to the eventual Big Letdown.

[Chiefnj2]

Wow.

15 times in 10 seasons.

To put that in perspective, Ben Roethlisberger has 19, IIRC, in 4 seasons.

You can pull all the stats you want, anyone who thinks of the word "clutch" when thinking of Green must be borrowing Terri Schiavo's brain.

Ben also starts off slow and often has to come back. Green was pretty consistent. Ben also has a hell of a defense to help protect a lead once they get one. Green did not have that benefit.

[cdcox]

My gosh the [insert current starter here] apologists are out in force already. This is a very bad omen.

[htismaqe]

He'll be good enough to drag people's expectations and hopes along far enough to the eventual Big Letdown.

Can you let me know the winning lottery numbers while you're at it?

[htismaqe]

My gosh the [insert current starter here] apologists are out in force already. This is a very bad omen.

Not wanting to spend the next 3+ years bitching and moaning about something I have no control over does not equal being an apologist.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Can you let me know the winning lottery numbers while you're at it?

6-8-24-32-48 PB 11

[Mecca]

Not wanting to spend the next 3+ years bitching and moaning about something I have no control over does not equal being an apologist.

Isn't part of being a fan bitching? I thought that was what forums were for.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Isn't part of being a fan bitching? I thought that was what forums were for.

That only applies to fans and media of both New York teams. Check the hand book.

[Pablo]

Isn't part of being a fan bitching? I thought that was what forums were for.Yes, it's part of it. Not the entirety. Try it out some time.

[htismaqe]

Isn't part of being a fan bitching? I thought that was what forums were for.

PART of it, sure.

I'd think if it became 100% frustration all the time, I'd look for a new hobby.

[Hammock Parties]

PART of it, sure.

I'd think if it became 100% frustration all the time, I'd look for a new hobby.

It can get a lot worse, for sure.

http://www.gambling911.com/files/publisher/Raiders-Nation-070109L.jpg

[htismaqe]

It can get a lot worse, for sure.

http://www.gambling911.com/files/publisher/Raiders-Nation-070109L.jpg

ROFL

[stevieray]

tk nailed it the other day...it's about being right, therfore the Chiefs are wrong.

[Mecca]

People wouldn't care so much about these views if they wanted the team to suck.

Do you really think anyone would take time out of their day to passionately argue something if they didn't care?

[keg in kc]

People wouldn't care so much about these views if they wanted the team to suck.

Do you really think anyone would take time out of their day to passionately argue something if they didn't care?Some people just like to argue.

[keg in kc]

Some people just like to argue.No they don't, you fucking moron.

[keg in kc]

No they don't, you ****ing moron.Hey, **** you, assface.

[Mecca]

Keg has split personality disorder.

[cdcox]

Some people just like to argue.

No they don't, you ****ing moron.

You're both wrong.

[Pablo]

Some people just like to argue.Pretty much. Arguing and feigning outrage have become a viable hobby for a handful of posters on this board. Trust me; when you've heard the exact same stance, from the exact same people, for a prolonged period of time it doesn't speak to the passion of those posters. It speaks to their own arrogance.

The Lounge has felt like DC forum for some time now; with separate camps so entrenched in their belief structure it's sickening. Don't waver. Don't budge. Fight the good fight. If posters want to be absolute homers. Fine. If posters want to be absolute pessimists and a general drag on the board. Fine. But I'm less inclined to believe it's because of general concern for the franchise; and more for a personal agenda to look like the ultimate CP genious.

[Mecca]

No one is going to talk about Sanchez much I've really not done it, there's not much point in it, he's a Jet and will always be a Jet.

Now if Cassel is a bomb I'll talk about the next guys coming down the pipe...Jacory Harris and Matt Barkley.

[Hammock Parties]

Now if Cassel is a bomb I'll talk about the next guys coming down the pipe...Jacory Harris and Matt Barkley.

lol drop some knowledge on us...as usual half this board probably hasn't even heard of Harris or Barkley. Including me.

[Pablo]

lol drop some knowledge on us...as usual half this board probably hasn't even heard of Harris or Barkley. Including me.What?

Watch college football. You'll hear these guys talked about all day long.

[Mecca]

lol drop some knowledge on us...as usual half this board probably hasn't even heard of Harris or Barkley. Including me.

Jacory Harris is a 19 year old true sophomore starting for the Hurricanes and Barkley is the true freshman starting at SC.

[Hammock Parties]

What?

Watch college football. You'll hear these guys talked about all day long.

Yeah, I don't. I catch about 30 minutes of highlights a week. For some reason the college game has never really interested me that much. Too many players coming and going too quickly.

[Mecca]

What?

Watch college football. You'll hear these guys talked about all day long.

You'd be surprised how many NFL fans don't follow college.

[Hammock Parties]

Barkley is the true freshman starting at SC.

So he is basically headed to the HOF....good to know.

[Mecca]

Yeah, I don't. I catch about 30 minutes of highlights a week. For some reason the college game has never really interested me that much. Too many players coming and going too quickly.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/c2j7OJkkmW8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/c2j7OJkkmW8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Watch the throw at about 2:25.

[keg in kc]

lol drop some knowledge on us...as usual half this board probably hasn't even heard of Harris or Barkley. Including me.Jesus.

[Hammock Parties]

Vince Young!

[Mecca]

He's not Vince Young not by a long shot...

Better throwing mechanics and he rarely runs. If he moves in the pocket he does it looking to pass.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Pretty much. Arguing and feigning outrage have become a viable hobby for a handful of posters on this board. Trust me; when you've heard the exact same stance, from the exact same people, for a prolonged period of time it doesn't speak to the passion of those posters. It speaks to their own arrogance.

The Lounge has felt like DC forum for some time now; with separate camps so entrenched in their belief structure it's sickening. Don't waver. Don't budge. Fight the good fight. If posters want to be absolute homers. Fine. If posters want to be absolute pessimists and a general drag on the board. Fine. But I'm less inclined to believe it's because of general concern for the franchise; and more for a personal agenda to look like the ultimate CP genious.

See, I find THIS post arrogant.

Do you want to know what brought me around to the same way of thinking as the people you are deriding in your post?

Facts.
Proof.
Undeniable Evidence.

Not wishes.
Not hope.
And sure as hell not franchise history as it relates to winning Championships.

The Chiefs Experience is what has kept this franchise alive, not the Chiefs themselves. Will the latest management right the ship? I don't know.
Will Pioli create "NE West"? I couldn't begin to say. But when you go against time-proven methods, and eschew the best talent in favor of some personal philosophy that quite frankly rings rather hollow, it doesn't inspire much faith or hope in me.

[stevieray]

People wouldn't care so much about these views if they wanted the team to suck.

Do you really think anyone would take time out of their day to passionately argue something if they didn't care?
we all care. that's why we are here. i don't yhink that is ever in question. it's about approach.

the current wave of negativity isn't unique...most of us originals met shortly after the 97 playoff game with Denver and endured the Gannon/Grbac debate for months.it divided the board. We watched Gun crash and burn everywhere but Denver,, and then watched DV build us up only to rip our hearts out(and the franchises') in 2003 in last ditch attempt to win it before Lamar died. We don't need to talk about Herm, that will always speak for itself.

chiefs fan are long suffering in an instant gratification society.The deep rooted mediocrity from scouting to drafting. etc are slowly being chipped away, and there are bound to be mistakes along the way..but to not even give the new regime a chance is just a waste of spirit...I know, wasn't that lomg ago that I was pissing my wife off for yelling at the Chiefs on sunday ticket... to the point where she didn't want to be around on game day.....

for a long time in the beginning, the biggest detractors were Jim(RIP),milkman, laz, keg, htis and talking can. ruthless, bitter...passionately pissed off...now, most of those are at least willing to concede that maybe, just maybe, its gonna be different, and to give them a chance to prove themselves over the course of a season. ....not only with football, but with life, we can second guess till the cows come home, but we don't need to look over our shoulders to see what we're after...in other words you can't move forward with one foot in the past.

I just want a GM and HC who really wants to win. I think they do. time will tell.

off box.

[ChiefsCountry]

Barkley by the time he is a senior 95% of the board will hate him, he will be talked about so much on ESPN and the likes. He has the chance to be even a better prospect than any of the other USC QBs so far.

[Mecca]

Barkley by the time he is a senior 95% of the board will hate him, he will be talked about so much on ESPN and the likes. He has the chance to be even a better prospect than any of the other USC QBs so far.

I'll be surprised if he stays 4 years.

[keg in kc]

for a long time in the beginning, the biggest detractors were Jim(RIP),milkman, laz, keg, htis and talking can. ruthless, bitter...passionately pissed off...now, most of those are at least willing to concede that maybe, just maybe, its gonna be different, and to give them a chance to prove themselves over the course of a season. ....Wait, what?

In '99 when Gun took over I might have been unhappy, I can't even remember that far back, but my approach with Vermeil, Herm and now Halioli was always to give them a chance to show it on the field. I never liked Marty, but that doesn't have anything with my experiences in KC; I wasn't even here in '97 or '98 for that. I didn't move here from Virginia until '99. So I was certainly never "bitter" about the Chiefs. And never particularly pissed-off, either. They have yet to win anything with me as a fan, so it's not like I'm missing the good ol' days or something like that.

I usually judge everything I say based on what happens on the field. I've always been like that.

[Mecca]

Wait, what?

In '99 when Gun took over I might have been, I can't even remember that far back, but my approach with Vermeil, Herm and now Halioli was always to give them a chance to show it on the field. I never liked Marty, but that doesn't have anything with my experiences in KC; I wasn't even here in '97 or '98 for that. I didn't move here from Virginia until '99. So I was certainly never "bitter" about the Chiefs. And never particularly pissed-off, either. They have yet to win anything with me as a fan, so it's not like I'm missing the good ol' days or anything.

Maybe you're the bad luck charm.

[ChiefsCountry]

I'll be surprised if he stays 4 years.

Thats probably true. I wish Pinkel would grow a sack and go to a pro-set offense - Gabbert has everything you want in a QB expect he runs the freaking damn spread.

[stevieray]

Wait, what?

In '99 when Gun took over I might have been unhappy, I can't even remember that far back, but my approach with Vermeil, Herm and now Halioli was always to give them a chance to show it on the field. I never liked Marty, but that doesn't have anything with my experiences in KC; I wasn't even here in '97 or '98 for that. I didn't move here from Virginia until '99. So I was certainly never "bitter" about the Chiefs. And never particularly pissed-off, either. They have yet to win anything with me as a fan, so it's not like I'm missing the good ol' days or something like that.

I usually judge everything I say based on what happens on the field. I've always been like that.

keep telling yourselves that...

...must've been thinking about a marriage thread with you...;)

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Thats probably true. I wish Pinkel would grow a sack and go to a pro-set offense - Gabbert has everything you want in a QB expect he runs the freaking damn spread.

This. And doesn't that setup weaken your O-line anyway?

[keg in kc]

Maybe you're the bad luck charm.I don't know, when I was in college I was a cowboys fan (living close to DC, I was as anti-redskin as you could get) and they won 3 titles. But they sucked for a long time while I was growing up, and started paying attention to the NFL, in the late 80s (this was my mid-teens).

Funny how 20 years later I hate Dallas almost as much as Denver and Oakland. And Washington.

[Mecca]

Thats probably true. I wish Pinkel would grow a sack and go to a pro-set offense - Gabbert has everything you want in a QB expect he runs the freaking damn spread.

Like that'll happen, the spread fixation has taken over college. Now we have teams that recruit future NFL talent running it.

[keg in kc]

keep telling yourselves that...

...must've been thinking about a marriage thread with you...;)I didn't get married until 2001, either. And my divorce wasn't until 2003-2004.

I think your mind's going. I wasn't around in '97.

[stevieray]

I didn't get married until 2001, either. And my divorce wasn't until 2003-2004.

I think your mind's going. I wasn't around in '97.

joke, kyle. joke.

sorry for adding your name to a list it didn't belong on.

[keg in kc]

I should've thrown in a smiley. I was just fucking with you.

:D

[smittysbar]

See, I find THIS post arrogant.

Do you want to know what brought me around to the same way of thinking as the people you are deriding in your post?

Facts.
Proof.
Undeniable Evidence.

Not wishes.
Not hope.
And sure as hell not franchise history as it relates to winning Championships.

The Chiefs Experience is what has kept this franchise alive, not the Chiefs themselves. Will the latest management right the ship? I don't know.
Will Pioli create "NE West"? I couldn't begin to say. But when you go against time-proven methods, and eschew the best talent in favor of some personal philosophy that quite frankly rings rather hollow, it doesn't inspire much faith or hope in me.

Can't believe I am saying this..........I AGREE

Look, I wanted Sanchez, BAD. When they did the Cassel deal I was pissed. IMO we had a chance to get someone great, if he didn't work out fine, me as a Chiefs fan I understand that. On the other hand, Pioli knows this guy better than any other team, and McDipshit wanted him too. So I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and go with it. I won't make my mind up for a couple years, but I still do think we batched this 1st rounder. Hopefully I am wrong.

The Chiefs are in a bad spot right now. We are limited on talent and have a group of fans that are striving for a mediocre season. It is going to take a while to rid this franchise of Herm and his lazy ways.

Then again, they dominated the stats in the Oakland game and pissed it away. Time to teach this team to finish the job.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

The Chiefs are in a bad spot right now. We are limited on talent and have a group of fans that are striving for a mediocre season. It is going to take a while to rid this franchise of Herm and his lazy ways.

Then again, they dominated the stats in the Oakland game and pissed it away. Time to teach this team to finish the job.

When a back to back win looks and seems like hitting the Power Ball Lottery...

The 6 or so players that we would like to see renew come contract time, have GOT to start experiencing and learning how to win in this league.

[Tribal Warfare]

Jacory Harris is a 19 year old true sophomore starting for the Hurricanes and Barkley is the true freshman starting at SC.

If Mallett gets it together he could be one too.

[htismaqe]

No one is going to talk about Sanchez much I've really not done it, there's not much point in it, he's a Jet and will always be a Jet.

My point exactly.

Yet it keeps coming up. :hmmm:

[htismaqe]

See, I find THIS post arrogant.

Do you want to know what brought me around to the same way of thinking as the people you are deriding in your post?

Facts.
Proof.
Undeniable Evidence.

Not wishes.
Not hope.
And sure as hell not franchise history as it relates to winning Championships.

The Chiefs Experience is what has kept this franchise alive, not the Chiefs themselves. Will the latest management right the ship? I don't know.
Will Pioli create "NE West"? I couldn't begin to say. But when you go against time-proven methods, and eschew the best talent in favor of some personal philosophy that quite frankly rings rather hollow, it doesn't inspire much faith or hope in me.

Facts? Proof? Undeniable evidence?

You've already said that the Chiefs WON'T amount to shit and Matt Cassel WILL BE a failure.

That's future tense. There is no "undeniable evidence" that tells you the future.

Frankly, your last paragraph is laughable. What are "time-proven methods"? I must have missed where there was one, and ONLY ONE, way to build a championship team. And just who was the "best talent" that Pioli missed on? Just come out and say it - he didn't do it the way YOU wanted him to. That's your opinion. Not fact.

By the way, that "hollow personal philosophy" brought Scott Pioli 3 Super Bowl rings and 4 NFL Exec of the Year awards. That's not my opinion. THAT is a fact.

[htismaqe]

Wait, what?

In '99 when Gun took over I might have been unhappy, I can't even remember that far back, but my approach with Vermeil, Herm and now Halioli was always to give them a chance to show it on the field. I never liked Marty, but that doesn't have anything with my experiences in KC; I wasn't even here in '97 or '98 for that. I didn't move here from Virginia until '99. So I was certainly never "bitter" about the Chiefs. And never particularly pissed-off, either. They have yet to win anything with me as a fan, so it's not like I'm missing the good ol' days or something like that.

I usually judge everything I say based on what happens on the field. I've always been like that.

Oh I was.

99 was a bad year. I was ready for Marty to be gone - screechingly vocal about wanting Marty to be gone - and Carl hired Marty Lite "he's growing a beard".

I was a raving lunatic for the better part of 2 years. :D

[SAUTO]

Take your pick:

Maualuga
Britton
Brace
Sintim
Barwin
E. Brown
Unger
Levitre

Would have sucked to pick any of them.

ALMOST every guy you mentioned was bashed by some of you guys before the draft

[SAUTO]

Yea, their head coach is alot better than ours too.

ROFL and you know this for a fact after 2 games?ROFL

[SAUTO]

What's wrong with Cassel being Trent Green? In his years with Vermeil he averaged a 62% completion percentage, 22TDs, 15 INTs and over 4,000 yards a year. Surround that with a good defense and you can win championships.

ROR doesnt know ANYTHING about that era. he didnt watch the chiefs then

[SAUTO]

lol drop some knowledge on us...as usual half this board probably hasn't even heard of Harris or Barkley. Including me.

where have YOU been? and harris better put on some weight. he looks like a stick man my 4 year old drew last night

[SAUTO]

See, I find THIS post arrogant.

Do you want to know what brought me around to the same way of thinking as the people you are deriding in your post?

Facts.
Proof.
Undeniable Evidence.

Not wishes.
Not hope.
And sure as hell not franchise history as it relates to winning Championships.

The Chiefs Experience is what has kept this franchise alive, not the Chiefs themselves. Will the latest management right the ship? I don't know.
Will Pioli create "NE West"? I couldn't begin to say. But when you go against time-proven methods, and eschew the best talent in favor of some personal philosophy that quite frankly rings rather hollow, it doesn't inspire much faith or hope in me.

what facts, proof, or undeniable evidence have you got? show us.

[milkman]

ALMOST every guy you mentioned was bashed by some of you guys before the draft

Come on Jason.

Of course, we are all not going to agree about every player, but that doesn't in any way diminish the point of Path's post.

[Skip Towne]

ROR doesnt know ANYTHING

FYP

[SAUTO]

Come on Jason.

Of course, we are all not going to agree about every player, but that doesn't in any way diminish the point of Path's post.

i agree, but to CONSTANTLY bash guys BEFORE the draft and then come out and act as though we should have drafted them is a little fucked up if you ask me. just bitching to bitch.


everette brown? how many posts on this board bashing him?

[milkman]

i agree, but to CONSTANTLY bash guys BEFORE the draft and then come out and act as though we should have drafted them is a little ****ed up if you ask me. just bitching to bitch.


everette brown? how many posts on this board bashing him?

People were bashed for suggesting that Evertte Brown should be taken with the #3 overall.

I highly doubt you'd find anyone suggesting before the draft that taking him in the 2nd round would be a bad pick.

[htismaqe]

People were bashed for suggesting that Evertte Brown should be taken with the #3 overall.

I highly doubt you'd find anyone suggesting before the draft that taking him in the 2nd round would be a bad pick.

I was one of the ones that early on wanted Brown at #3. I got bashed for it, and RIGHTFULLY SO in hindsight.

It became apparent as the draft drew closer that taking Brown at #3 wasn't a good idea. And where he actually WENT just proved it.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Facts? Proof? Undeniable evidence?

You've already said that the Chiefs WON'T amount to shit and Matt Cassel WILL BE a failure.

That's future tense. There is no "undeniable evidence" that tells you the future.

Frankly, your last paragraph is laughable. What are "time-proven methods"? I must have missed where there was one, and ONLY ONE, way to build a championship team. And just who was the "best talent" that Pioli missed on? Just come out and say it - he didn't do it the way YOU wanted him to. That's your opinion. Not fact.

By the way, that "hollow personal philosophy" brought Scott Pioli 3 Super Bowl rings and 4 NFL Exec of the Year awards. That's not my opinion. THAT is a fact.

I'll address this when I get back from running errands.

[milkman]

Incorrect. I said Cassel won't amount to shit. As far as the other positions around him go, that is yet to be seen. And as I stated before; his ceiling will be high enough to get us back to another repeat of 1997 or 2003 in the overall results-column.
Choose whichever interchangeable FAIL from above tickles your naughty bits.

Now you know that I was pissed when we traded for Cassel, and that we didn't draft Sanchez, so take this for the objective view that it is.

If the Cassel that played for the Pats in the latter half of last season had played QB for the Chiefs in '95 and '97, those teams could very well have advanced to the SB, if Marty doesn't hamstring them.

I don't believe that Cassel will ever be top 5 quality, but he does have the tools, I think, to be top 12, and if you build a team around him, that very well could be good enough.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Now you know that I was pissed when we traded for Cassel, and that we didn't draft Sanchez, so take this for the objective view that it is.

If the Cassel that played for the Pats in the latter half of last season had played QB for the Chiefs in '95 and '97, those teams could very well have advanced to the SB, if Marty doesn't hamstring them.

I don't believe that Cassel will ever be top 5 quality, but he does have the tools, I think, to be top 12, and if you build a team around him, that very well could be good enough.

Meh. We'll see.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

You've already said that the Chiefs WON'T amount to shit and Matt Cassel WILL BE a failure.Incorrect. I said Cassel won't amount to shit. As far as the other positions around him go, that is yet to be seen. And as I stated before; his ceiling will be high enough to get us back to another repeat of 1997 or 2003 in the overall results-column.
Choose whichever interchangeable FAIL from above tickles your naughty bits.

That's future tense. There is no "undeniable evidence" that tells you the future.
That was made in reference to building a consistent, Championship winning franchise.

Frankly, your last paragraph is laughable. What are "time-proven methods"?You were around in the months leading up to the draft, so you should remember the many cases brought forward by other posters regarding building a winning franchise outside of New England without ME having to dredge through the archives and present them to you again.
These takes were accompanied with stats/numbers that did IN FACT prove their credibility.

I must have missed where there was one, and ONLY ONE, way to build a championship team.

And now we arrive at the meat of the matter: the much ballyhooed "Patriot Way".
Has Belichick created his own niche for success in the History of the NFL?
Absolutely.
But please don't try and convince me that in the 89 year history of the league, one decade of winning spurred on by the greatest winning power ball ticket to ever throw a football in the NFL constitutes a rewrite of the entire textbook.
NOT buying. Thank you.

And just who was the "best talent" that Pioli missed on?"Bill and I have a rule; if a guy needs the sizzle, he's not for us".Unless "sizzle" is code for "problem child"; that is the dumbest fucking take on talent I have ever read.

Just come out and say it - he didn't do it the way YOU wanted him to.He didn't do it the way I wanted him to. :shrug:

By the way, that "hollow personal philosophy" brought Scott Pioli 3 Super Bowl rings and 4 NFL Exec of the Year awards. That's not my opinion. THAT is a fact.


By the way, that success was cultivated by a partnership of TWO people, NOT one. And last I looked, our sideline was conspicuously devoid of a sleeveless hoodie.
And THAT too is a fact.

Good day Sir.

[htismaqe]

Incorrect. I said Cassel won't amount to shit.

Thanks for the lotto numbers.

That was made in reference to building a consistent, Championship winning franchise.

You were around in the months leading up to the draft, so you should remember the many cases brought forward by other posters regarding building a winning franchise outside of New England without ME having to dredge through the archives and present them to you again.
These takes were accompanied with stats/numbers that did IN FACT prove their credibility.

And now we arrive at the meat of the matter: the much ballyhooed "Patriot Way".
Has Belichick created his own niche for success in the History of the NFL?
Absolutely.
But please don't try and convince me that in the 89 year history of the league, one decade of winning spurred on by the greatest winning power ball ticket to ever throw a football in the NFL constitutes a rewrite of the entire textbook.
NOT buying. Thank you.

So you have "undeniable evidence" that what the Chiefs are doing won't work, huh? You might want to let the 1996 Green Bay Packers know, since they acquired their Super Bowl winning QB by trading a 2nd round draft pick. Oh and acquired their best defensive player via free agency.

The fact that you firmly believe there is one way, and one way only, to build a championship team is laughable.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Thanks for the lotto numbers.



So you have "undeniable evidence" that what the Chiefs are doing won't work, huh? You might want to let the 1996 Green Bay Packers know, since they acquired their Super Bowl winning QB by trading a 2nd round draft pick. Oh and acquired their best defensive player via free agency.

The fact that you firmly believe there is one way, and one way only, to build a championship team is laughable.

I'm disappointed. I honestly expected more from you. I'm done with this thread.

[htismaqe]

I'm disappointed. I honestly expected more from you. I'm done with this thread.

What did you expect from me?

Tacit approval for an opinion that is so narrow-minded it makes Tom Cash look liberal?

All I've asked is that you acknowledge that the future isn't set in stone. All I've done is present you with a fine example of a championship team that WASN'T BUILT the way you claim is the only way to build one.

Look man, I know where your at. Take a look at what Mecca and Hamas are saying. Or Dane. Why are you out there on an island?

As I've said before, staying the course with something like this doesn't make you principled, it makes you stubborn.

[Hammock Parties]

You know, our run defense really wasn't bad today. They tightened up.

[Mecca]

Look man no one on this forum wanted Mark Sanchez to play for the Chiefs more than me but that ship is gone, you can't turn back time.