At the Quarter Mark: Better or Worse?

[OnTheWarpath15]

After the Haley hire, you couldn't throw a stick through this place without hitting someone that made the following comment:

"We'll be a better team based on coaching alone," or, "we'll win X amount of games due to coaching alone."

Yes, it's only been 4 games, and this is NOT a call for Haley's head - but is deserved criticism of the way he's prepared this team over the first 4 games of the regular season.

Also, IN NO WAY is the following an endorsement of Herman Edwards. What it is, however, is a giant red flag - this team - of which 60% has been handpicked by Pioli and Haley - is actually worse in almost all statistical categories when compared to the 2008 team after 4 games - which many here claimed were the darkest days of last season. We'll call it, B.S. - or, Before Spread.

Offensively (bolded number is 2009 totals):

1st downs: (63) (62)

3rd down conversions: (25/62 - 40%) (9/51 - 18%)

Total yards: (1145) (986)

Rushing yards: (554) (406)

Passing yards: (591) (580)

Sacks Allowed: (12) (13)

Penalties/Yardage: (10/109) 29/230

Scoring: (16.25 PPG) (16 PPG)


Not a single category in which we've improved over 2008, which happened to include going through 3 QB's - playing the 3rd stringer in 2 of the 4.


Defensively:

1st downs allowed: (74) (85)

3rd down conversions against: (25/54 - 46%) (25/58 - 43%)

Total yards allowed: (1517) (1516)

Rushing yards allowed: (706) (514)

Passing yards allowed: (811) (1002)

Sacks: (3) (5)

Points allowed: (24.25 PPG) (28 PPG)

Turnover margin: (+2) (Even)

Yea! 2 more sacks! And nice to see the 192 yard improvement from the rush defense, only to see 191 of it be given back up by the pass defense.


The 2008 team was apparently so bad that management felt the need to purge 30 players, yet is playing worse with a roster that is 60% their handpicked players?

What message are you trying to send, Todd? It seems like it changes on a weekly fucking basis.

As someone who predicted a 3 win season, the losses aren't surprising me.

The way we are losing, after hearing the phrase, "we're going to be a big, strong, fast, smart, tough, disciplined football team" IS surprising me.

There is no improvement over the "Dark Ages" of last season in ANY of those areas. And there's no excuse for it, especially the lack of discipline. Make 'em run some more, Todd - it seems to be working...

Enough excuses - enough with the "messages" - enough petty bullshit sitting players - time to see some fucking improvement. Not necessarily wins.

IMPROVEMENT.

[Micjones]

Can't argue with this. This team needs to get better in all three phases.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Can't argue with this. This team needs to get better in all three phases.

Holy Jesus.

Those Evelyn Wood Speed Reading classes are really paying off, Mic.

[DeezNutz]

At least we have a franchise QB.

[Chiefnj2]

The Chiefs are worse. I didn't think I'd ever say that after the first four games of 2008, but they are worse. Plus, they have no identity yet.

[chiefs1111]

well hey we might beat Cleveland later this season.... maybe......

[DeezNutz]

The penalties are really damning evidence.

[Sure-Oz]

The players are trying too hard to not make mistakes, like a driver that is too cautious causing wrecks

[OnTheWarpath15]

The penalties are really damning evidence.

Everyone talked about how undisciplined Herm's teams were.

Yet Haley the Disciplinarian's team has committed 19 more penalties for 119 yards after 4 games.

That running and screaming is really paying off.

[Hammock Parties]

We're appreciably worse but that's to be expected when you're installing new offensive and defensive systems and dumping talent like Tony Gonzalez.

By the way, we are a better team than we were at the beginning of last year when we tried to run the pro set to futility. And I believe we will be a better team by the end of the year than we were at the end of 2008.

We took two steps backwards to get pointed in the right direction. It will pay off.

[chiefs1111]

if there isn't an uncapped year I hope Clark will spend some money on some good,young free agents.. It would be nice for a change

[Chiefnj2]

Everyone talked about how undisciplined Herm's teams were.

Yet Haley the Disciplinarian's team has committed 19 more penalties for 119 yards after 4 games.

That running and screaming is really paying off.

At least they are thinner, looking svelte and their cardiologists thank Haley.

[OnTheWarpath15]

We're appreciably worse but that's to be expected when you're installing new offensive and defensive systems and dumping talent like Tony Gonzalez.

By the way, we are a better team than we were at the beginning of last year when we tried to run the pro set to futility. And I believe we will be a better team by the end of the year than we were at the end of 2008.

We took two steps backwards to get pointed in the right direction. It will pay off.

Uh, no, we're not.

Did you actually look at the numbers?

And how the fuck did we take 2 steps backwards, when all I heard last year is how it can't get any worse?

[Skyy God]

if there isn't an uncapped year I hope Clark will spend some money on some good,young free agents.. It would be nice for a change

Good luck with that. We've almost never spent the kind of money necessary to bring in expensive, 2nd contract players.

[JuicesFlowing]

The Chiefs are worse. I didn't think I'd ever say that after the first four games of 2008, but they are worse. Plus, they have no identity yet.

This is what frustrates me about this team. They don't even know what they want to do.

[Bane]

I knew we were gonna be pretty bad but this team so far hasn't come together like I had hoped.Right now I would have to vote for worse,but being this bad has to mean being good is next...I hope....
Posted via Mobile Device

[KCUnited]

Switch out last years Denver game for this years Giants game and those numbers may even out some. But yeah, we are worse no question.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

We're appreciably worse but that's to be expected when you're installing new offensive and defensive systems and dumping talent like Tony Gonzalez.

By the way, we are a better team than we were at the beginning of last year when we tried to run the pro set to futility. And I believe we will be a better team by the end of the year than we were at the end of 2008.

We took two steps backwards to get pointed in the right direction. It will pay off.

I almost started this very thread yesterday. OTWP did a better job with stats to back everything up. I found myself pondering whether or not this team was better than it was 1 year ago today. I determined it's not, and mostly for the reasons GoChiefs listed above. We'll see where it goes from here, but so far, not so good.

[DeezNutz]

Plus, they have no identity yet.

But what about that "message" that Haley sent in Philly? Didn't that help?

[DeezNutz]

Oh, and OTW, I'm going to be shocked if you didn't just write Whitlock's next column.

Congrats. LMAO.

[OnTheWarpath15]

But what about that "message" that Haley sent in Philly? Didn't that help?

Sunday is "opposite day" in the Haley household.

Run 10 of 11 plays when down 3 scores, throw 5 of 6 plays inside the 2 fucking yard line.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Oh, and OTW, I'm going to be shocked if you didn't just write Whitlock's next column.

Congrats. LMAO.

Hey, I've always wanted to be published.

[The Franchise]

That onside kick to open the second half was fucking retarded.

[KCUnited]

That onside kick to open the second half was ****ing retarded.
We are going to keep doing it until we get it right.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

It would be interesting to see these numbers during Haley's 3rd year when he has been at the helm.

All these numbers tell me is that Haley has put up near identical numbers with an overhauled team in his first year compared to Herms team which had been 3 years in the making...

[SenselessChiefsFan]

It would be interesting to see these numbers during Haley's 3rd year when he has been at the helm.

All these numbers tell me is that Haley has put up near identical numbers with an overhauled team in his first year compared to Herms team which had been 3 years in the making...

Give me a break. Herm wasn't allowed to tear down the team and start building until his third year.

I am not calling for Haley's head.... but this has been pathetic.

[Buehler445]

Good analysis OTW. Third Down futility had a lot to with replacing Gonzo with shit on a fucking shingle.

I was telling someone yesterday, that I had no idea why Pioli and Haley didn't go get some different starters.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hammock Parties]

Uh, no, we're not.

Did you actually look at the numbers?

And how the fuck did we take 2 steps backwards, when all I heard last year is how it can't get any worse?

Look at the games against Carolina and Tennessee last year.

Nothing nearly that bad has happened this year. Philly came close.

And that Oakland game last year was a disaster. This year it was just...disappointing.

[Hammock Parties]

All these numbers tell me is that Haley has put up near identical numbers with an overhauled team in his first year compared to Herms team which had been 3 years in the making...

Exactly. That is a huge difference.

[Shag]

I think some allowance has to be made for a new scheme on both sides of the ball, a late offensive playbook change, and quality of opponents faced. That being said, the team has been disappointing so far, even given very low expectations. The 3rd down efficiency and penalties are the most discouraging stats, IMHO - nearly impossible to win with those numbers.

I think the second half of the season will be the most telling. 8 weeks to get at least somewhat comfortable with the new schemes, and a much more reasonable schedule should give a much better idea of where this team is heading for the future.

[raybec 4]

9 of 51 on third down is fucking horrible. how in the blue fuck can you call yourself an offensive coach when you can't fall ass first into 25% of your third down conversions.

[DaneMcCloud]

Good analysis OTW. Third Down futility had a lot to with replacing Gonzo with shit on a fucking shingle.

I was telling someone yesterday, that I had no idea why Pioli and Haley didn't go get some different starters.
Posted via Mobile Device

This entire first quarter of the season is sickening.

I sat here and watched dozens of forum members suck off Pioli and Haley, all the while pointing fingers at Josh McDaniels and the Denver Broncos.

Denver is 4-0, has seven new starters on defense and has given up a league low of 6.5 points per game on defense.

The Chiefs are 0-4, look like a freakin' disaster both offensively and defensively. Their defense has given up 28 points per game and is ranked 30th, just ahead of Cleveland and Detroit.

I don't know what the fuck is going on at One Arrowhead Drive but if I'm Clark Hunt, I'm there first thing this morning demanding some answers.

Of course, I'm not Clark Hunt. He's in Dallas, counting his money.

[raybec 4]

This entire first quarter of the season is sickening.

I sat here and watched dozens of forum members suck off Pioli and Haley, all the while pointing fingers at Josh McDaniels and the Denver Broncos.

Denver is 4-0, has seven new starters on defense and has given up a league low of 6.5 points per game on defense.

The Chiefs are 0-4, look like a freakin' disaster both offensively and defensively. Their defense has given up 28 points per game and is ranked 30th, just ahead of Cleveland and Detroit.

I don't know what the **** is going on at One Arrowhead Drive but if I'm Clark Hunt, I'm there first thing this morning demanding some answers.

Of course, I'm not Clark Hunt. He's in Dallas, counting his money.

And fucking Mexican soccer players

[DaneMcCloud]

IMPROVEMENT.

Most excellent post, Dude.

MOST excellent.

:thumb:

[DaneMcCloud]

And fucking Mexican soccer players

He's gay?

NTTATWWT

[Just Passin' By]

Last season:
Patriots lost Brady in the first game and had Cassel come in cold. That was followed by the Raiders, Falcons and Broncos.

This season:
Chiefs started their season against the Ravens. That was followed by the Raiders, Eagles and Giants.

In other words, the schedule broke much easier last season than it has so far this season. The Chiefs don't have Gonzalez and Bowe's been hurt. Despite that, the scoring is just about the same, at 65 points last season to 64 this season. The defense had surrendered 97 points through 4 games last season, and has surrendered 112 through 4 games this season. Unless people expect the Chiefs to be shut out by the Cowboys this week, this season's offense will surpass last season's offense in points scored, and everyone knew that the defense would have problems due to the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4, the tougher schedule, and the lack of talent.

Also, for all the complaining people did about the team daring to lose against the Raiders, it lost to Oakland in K.C. last season, too.

[TEX]

This entire first quarter of the season is sickening.

I sat here and watched dozens of forum members suck off Pioli and Haley, all the while pointing fingers at Josh McDaniels and the Denver Broncos.

Denver is 4-0, has seven new starters on defense and has given up a league low of 6.5 points per game on defense.

The Chiefs are 0-4, look like a freakin' disaster both offensively and defensively. Their defense has given up 28 points per game and is ranked 30th, just ahead of Cleveland and Detroit.

I don't know what the **** is going on at One Arrowhead Drive but if I'm Clark Hunt, I'm there first thing this morning demanding some answers.

Of course, I'm not Clark Hunt. He's in Dallas, counting his money.

This.

[TEX]

Exactly. That is a huge difference.

You were in Herm's camp. Nothing you say counts. :p

[Fish]

Helluva thread OTWP. Pretty telling stats there..

[L.A. Chieffan]

Get over it

[Chiefnj2]

The Lions have a better 3rd down defense and more sacks than KC. Gunther laughs.

[L.A. Chieffan]

The Lions have a better 3rd down defense and more sacks than KC. Gunther laughs.

If matrix were here, he would laugh too

[ModSocks]

It would be interesting to see these numbers during Haley's 3rd year when he has been at the helm.

All these numbers tell me is that Haley has put up near identical numbers with an overhauled team in his first year compared to Herms team which had been 3 years in the making...

QFT

Lets also not forget the strength of schedule this year vs last year. And you also have to take into consideration that Herm was on the DECLINE with his team. They were getting progressivly worse each year. I wonder how Herm's team would look out there this season.

[Buehler445]

This entire first quarter of the season is sickening.

I sat here and watched dozens of forum members suck off Pioli and Haley, all the while pointing fingers at Josh McDaniels and the Denver Broncos.

Denver is 4-0, has seven new starters on defense and has given up a league low of 6.5 points per game on defense.

The Chiefs are 0-4, look like a freakin' disaster both offensively and defensively. Their defense has given up 28 points per game and is ranked 30th, just ahead of Cleveland and Detroit.

I don't know what the fuck is going on at One Arrowhead Drive but if I'm Clark Hunt, I'm there first thing this morning demanding some answers.

Of course, I'm not Clark Hunt. He's in Dallas, counting his money.

I had a minor meltdown, check that, I MELTED THE FUCK DOWN last night when I heard the Donko cunts beat the Cowgirls. IIRC, I was talking to Reerun, but seriously. Their defense was on par with ours last year, they spend much fewer picks than we do, and they're the 4th best Defense currently? Fucking how? Do they even have a nose tackle? WTF?

The only thing I can think of is that Dumerville provides enough of a passrush to mask some of their holes (I recognize they played Cleveland, which helps them out).

Offensively, I thought they would be average. A good OL and WR corps with a non-retarded QB will get you average.

I'm surprised as hell about their D though. I just don't fucking get it.
Posted via Mobile Device

[dirk digler]

Last season:
Patriots lost Brady in the first game and had Cassel come in cold. That was followed by the Raiders, Falcons and Broncos.

This season:
Chiefs started their season against the Ravens. That was followed by the Raiders, Eagles and Giants.

In other words, the schedule broke much easier last season than it has so far this season. The Chiefs don't have Gonzalez and Bowe's been hurt. Despite that, the scoring is just about the same, at 65 points last season to 64 this season. The defense had surrendered 97 points through 4 games last season, and has surrendered 112 through 4 games this season. Unless people expect the Chiefs to be shut out by the Cowboys this week, this season's offense will surpass last season's offense in points scored, and everyone knew that the defense would have problems due to the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4, the tougher schedule, and the lack of talent.

Also, for all the complaining people did about the team daring to lose against the Raiders, it lost to Oakland in K.C. last season, too.

Yep.

I have come to the conclusion though by listening to Haley's comments yesterday and observing Pioli and Clark Hunt chatting it up and laughing and joking yesterday for about 30 minutes that there is little or no pressure to win this season. Haley's comments reinforce that when it says they are still evaluating players that this year is more like extended pre-season.

[raybec 4]

I had a minor meltdown, check that, I MELTED THE **** DOWN last night when I heard the Donko ****s beat the Cowgirls. IIRC, I was talking to Reerun, but seriously. Their defense was on par with ours last year, they spend much fewer picks than we do, and they're the 4th best Defense currently? ****ing how? Do they even have a nose tackle? WTF?

The only thing I can think of is that Dumerville provides enough of a passrush to mask some of their holes (I recognize they played Cleveland, which helps them out).

Offensively, I thought they would be average. A good OL and WR corps with a non-retarded QB will get you average.

I'm surprised as hell about their D though. I just don't ****ing get it.
Posted via Mobile Device
Mike Nolan runs one hell of a D. Clancy Pederast does not.

[Halfcan]

Sorry but Haley has been the worst coach I have ever seen-if he is next year I would be surprised.

[Chiefnj2]

Mike Nolan runs one hell of a D. Clancy Pederast does not.

Not while he was in San Fran.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'm surprised as hell about their D though. I just don't fucking get it.
Posted via Mobile Device

I think there's no doubt that Dumerville is a catalyst but Mike Nolan has been an excellent defensive coordinator for years and years. He kinda reminds me of Pete Carroll in that he's an excellent coordinator that would excel as a college head coach.

But Denver's moves have been head and shoulders above the Chiefs and that alone sickens me beyond belief. I truly and honestly believe that it begins and ends with ownership.

I can tell you one thing's for sure: If I'm Clark Hunt and my head coach says "I'm going to hire Clancy Pendergast as my DC", I say "The fucking bloody hell your are! Find someone else!"

[dirk digler]

I'm surprised as hell about their D though. I just don't fucking get it.
Posted via Mobile Device

It is really really simple, they have Mike Nolan as their DC who knows how to coach defense. That is the downside of waiting to pick a head coach because all the good assistants are gone.

[Rausch]

Exactly. That is a huge difference.

I'd love to see a comparison between DV/Haley, year 1.

I'd argue both coaches came in with little to work with.

Not that I'm a fan of Haley. In fact I'd spank to the news he was canned...

[DaneMcCloud]

Not while he was in San Fran.

He wasn't the d-coordinator but he did help to provide the current 49ers with a shit-ton of defensive talent.

They're becoming a damn good football team.

[carlos3652]

OTW - Great Analysis...

That being said, has it been taken into account that we played vs 1 playoff team last year, and this year we have played 3 in the first quarter, and 2 on the road....

So i feel that even though we might be the same or worse as last year AT THIS POINT AND TIME i feel that after 4 Games we are better....

Statistically, I want to go down on the record stating that games 5-8 will be MUCH better than 2008.

OTW - again good analysis on your part... not taking anyway way from you on this... just wanted to state the schedule difference...

[Rausch]

Mike Nolan runs one hell of a D. Clancy Pederast does not.

I'm also getting sick of the "our offense left our defense on the field all day" argument.

Bullshit.

Haley preached on and on about how in shape this team was/would be. And you can look at any number of teams that had $3itty offenses and great (not just good, but GREAT) defenses. The Bucs, Bears, Steelers, Ravens, 90's Chiefs most of the time, Dolphins, etc.

Their offenses wouldn't show up entire games and yet the D would make plays to WIN games at the end...

[dirk digler]

One thing to keep in mind about Pioli and that was in 2000 the Pats were 5-11 and for a portion of the season didn't even have a full 53 man roster because Pioli\Belichick didn't like anybody that they could bring in or who they had on their practice squad.

Then the following year they started out 0-2 and everybody was thinking Belichick was going to be fired.

The rest is history. Now I am not saying that is going to happen here but the first year is basically a bloodletting.

[raybec 4]

I'm also getting sick of the "our offense left our defense on the field all day" argument.

Bullshit.

Haley preached on and on about how in shape this team was/would be. And you can look at any number of teams that had $3itty offenses and great (not just good, but GREAT) defenses. The Bucs, Bears, Steelers, Ravens, 90's Chiefs most of the time, Dolphins, etc.

Their offenses wouldn't show up entire games and yet the D would make plays to WIN games at the end...

Poor talent + poor decision making= Bad defense

Not too much time on the field.

[morphius]

I'm enjoying this year a lot more than last, at least we have pretended to be competitive. Maybe we should look at this after next week, 'cause last year week 5 was the 34-0 slaughter at the hands of the Panthers. Of course this years having 1/3 of our first downs taken away by penalties hasn't helped (yes, I pulled the 1/3 out of my ass).

[Buehler445]

I think there's no doubt that Dumerville is a catalyst but Mike Nolan has been an excellent defensive coordinator for years and years. He kinda reminds me of Pete Carroll in that he's an excellent coordinator that would excel as a college head coach.

But Denver's moves have been head and shoulders above the Chiefs and that alone sickens me beyond belief. I truly and honestly believe that it begins and ends with ownership.

I can tell you one thing's for sure: If I'm Clark Hunt and my head coach says "I'm going to hire Clancy Pendergast as my DC", I say "The fucking bloody hell your are! Find someone else!"

I hate Pendergast too. That was definitely a :spock: hiring.

I'm with you on some of the moves they made, but some of them should have been crippling. Cutler, trading this year's first and a second for a short CB, doing very little to help their D...on paper this should be an average offensive team and a shitbox defensive team.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Just Passin' By]

I'm surprised as hell about their D though. I just don't ****ing get it.
Posted via Mobile Device

Major overhaul, overlooked by a lot of people:

Dawkins
Hill
Goodman
Davis
McBean
Fields

That's 6 of 11 defensive starters that weren't on the team last season, and that's before you start looking at position changes, sub-package players, or backups.

Playing Cleveland and Oakland doesn't hurt, either.

[Tiger's Fan]

Fire em all/Sanchez....thread.

PS: Rome wasn't built in a day because those mother fuckers were lazy.

[cdcox]

We are getting worse at a slower rate than we were before. Therefore, we are near the bottom and will be improving soon.

Seriously, the roster was so bad that I'm giving Pioli/Haley 2 full years of free ride. I also don't think they got the benefit of a full off season because of the lateness in which the staff was assembled (I blame Clark and his insistence to evaluate Herm Edwards for that). I won't try to determine if we are on the right track until regular season of 2011. My major gripe so far is Cassel over Sanchez.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'd love to see a comparison between DV/Haley, year 1.

I'd argue both coaches came in with little to work with.

Not that I'm a fan of Haley. In fact I'd spank to the news he was canned...

2001 Chiefs:

Offense: #5 overall in points averaging 20 points per game (320 total)
#5 overall in yards per game (354 per game)

Defense: #23 overall in points at 21.5 (344 total allowed)
#23 overall in yards at 331 per game

[Rausch]

One thing to keep in mind about Pioli and that was in 2000 the Pats were 5-11 and for a portion of the season didn't even have a full 53 man roster because Pioli\Belichick didn't like anybody that they could bring in or who they had on their practice squad.

Then the following year they started out 0-2 and everybody was thinking Belichick was going to be fired.

The rest is history. Now I am not saying that is going to happen here but the first year is basically a bloodletting.

The same offensive line that got Bledsoe killed and everyone said was horrible Brady rode to a super bowl. Brady changed their whole team.

Those first two years under Brady the Pats scraped and clawed their way to victory. No huge blowouts or anything. Brady and co. just always found a way at the end...

[Rausch]

2001 Chiefs:

Offense: #5 overall in points averaging 20 points per game (320 total)
#5 overall in yards per game (354 per game)

Defense: #23 overall in points at 21.5 (344 total allowed)
#23 overall in yards at 331 per game

That was DV's first year? You sure?

I remember a lot of sacks, INT's, and Holmes didn't even really come on until about week 4 or so...

[dirk digler]

The same offensive line that got Bledsoe killed and everyone said was horrible Brady rode to a super bowl. Brady changed their whole team.

Those first two years under Brady the Pats scraped and clawed their way to victory. No huge blowouts or anything. Brady and co. just always found a way at the end...

That is not true about their OL. You are correct about clawing their way to victories.

2000 Final OL



78 Bruce Armstrong T
72 Sale Isaia G
70 Adrian Klemm G/T ^R
62 Josh Rawlings T ^UR
77 Greg Robinson-Randall T ^R
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

2001 Final OL



63 Joe Andruzzi G
77 Mike Compton G
74 Kenyatta Jones T/G ^R
72 Matt Light T ^R
61 Stephen Neal T/G
64 Greg Robinson-Randall T
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

They replaced 3 out of their 5 starters in 01.

[Just Passin' By]

That was DV's first year? You sure?

I remember a lot of sacks, INT's, and Holmes didn't even really come on until about week 4 or so...

They were 16th in scoring, not 5th as Dane posted:

Scored 320 points (20.0/g), 16th of 31 in the NFL.
Allowed 344 points (21.5/g), 23rd.
Differential of -24 points (-1.5/g), 17th...
Takeaway/Giveaway Differential -7 (-0.4/g), 22nd.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kan/2001.htm

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=SCORING&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2001&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

[keg in kc]

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

:clap:

[Rausch]

That is not true about their OL. You are correct about clawing their way to victories.

2000 Final OL



78 Bruce Armstrong T
72 Sale Isaia G
70 Adrian Klemm G/T ^R
62 Josh Rawlings T ^UR
77 Greg Robinson-Randall T ^R
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

2001 Final OL



63 Joe Andruzzi G
77 Mike Compton G
74 Kenyatta Jones T/G ^R
72 Matt Light T ^R
61 Stephen Neal T/G
64 Greg Robinson-Randall T
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

They replaced 3 out of their 5 starters in 01.

Bledsoe got knocked out (after getting beat around) and Brady rode that team to a SB. IIRC Brady even missed a game (or most of a game) that Bledsoe had to fill in for during the run due to injury.

I'm just saying that Brady's first year that was no super front 5 he played behind but his play did chance the whole dynamic...

[DaneMcCloud]

That was DV's first year? You sure?

I remember a lot of sacks, INT's, and Holmes didn't even really come on until about week 4 or so...

Positive.

That team started 1-6 and finished 6-10. They didn't know how to use Priest until the Redskins game.

If you want to get into serious stats like those that OTWP broke out, here's a link:

http://www.databasefootball.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=KAN&lg=NFL&yr=2001

[mikey23545]

That onside kick to open the second half was ****ing retarded.

We are going to keep doing it until we get it right.

Haley's trying to send a message.

[Rausch]

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

There were still some flashes. Not many, things did not look good, but Holmes did make one wonder.

I think with the (limited) talent this team has we should run the ball (and no, not 5 draw/shotgun handoff plays in a row) and use playaction. Our WR's are sub-par, our o line is teh sukh, and our QB is new to everything here.

Instead we're running a spread/pistol-similar offense 1/2 the time...

[DaneMcCloud]

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

I hated Vermeil's tenure. But you wanna see something really sick?

3-13 (75) - Eric Downing (http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=DOWNIERI01), Syracuse, DT
3-15 (77) - Marvin Minnis (http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MINNIMAR01), Florida State, WR
4-12 (107) - Monty Beisel (http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=BEISEMON01), Kansas State, DE
4-13 (108) - George Layne, Texas Christian, RB
5-10 (141) - Billy Baber (http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=BABERBIL01), Virginia, TE
5-19 (150) - Derrick Blaylock, Stephen F. Austin, RB
6-13 (176) - Alex Sulfsted, Miami (OH), G
7-12 (212) - Shaunard Harts (http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=HARTSSHA01), Boise State, DB
7-43 (243) - Terdell Sands, Chattanooga, DT

The ONLY guy still in the league, including Vermeil and Green. is Terdell Sands.

That is just downright pathetic.

[DaneMcCloud]

There were still some flashes. Not many, things did not look good, but Holmes did make one wonder.

I think with the (limited) talent this team has we should run the ball (and no, not 5 draw/shotgun handoff plays in a row) and use playaction. Our WR's are sub-par, our o line is teh sukh, and our QB is new to everything here.

Instead we're running a spread/pistol-similar offense 1/2 the time...

IMO, the Chiefs should be running the spread 90% of the time, excluding goal line situations.

This line sucks ass and The Spread at least gives Cassel a chance to complete passes.

[keg in kc]

There were still some flashes. Not many, things did not look good, but Holmes did make one wonder.

I think with the (limited) talent this team has we should run the ball (and no, not 5 draw/shotgun handoff plays in a row) and use playaction. Our WR's are sub-par, our o line is teh sukh, and our QB is new to everything here.

Instead we're running a spread/pistol-similar offense 1/2 the time...I don't think going pro-set or I-formation would work any better. Cox isn't very good and we don't have a tight end who can block worth a shit. And I don't think they'd slow down the pass rush an iota on playaction unless the running plays started to actually work.

[mikey23545]

Positive.

That team started 1-6 and finished 6-10. They didn't know how to use Priest until the Redskins game.

If you want to get into serious stats like those that OTWP broke out, here's a link:

http://www.databasefootball.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=KAN&lg=NFL&yr=2001

Damn nice website...rep.

[Rausch]

Haley's trying to send a message.

I liked the onside kick.

Didn't work, didn't help, but he was trying.

I don't like the predictable ruts he gets into with his playcalling.

For an hour the guy will decide to find every way possible to run out of the shotgun with LJ.

Why?

LJ prefers a FB, multiple carries, and has a $#it O line to work with. If this pistol/spread/shotgun offense is what Haley wants trade LJ, move Charles in there, and quit being stubborn about fitting square pegs in round holes...

[Rausch]

IMO, the Chiefs should be running the spread 90% of the time, excluding goal line situations.

This line sucks ass and The Spread at least gives Cassel a chance to complete passes.

If so then lets do it. I don't think we have the talent for it but find what we're trying to be and fucking commit to it. If that's the plan then let's use the best talent for it and not shift from 1st gear to 3rd, back to 2nd, up to 5th, etc.

The playcalling looks like Gunther's insane press conferences sounded...

[htismaqe]

Positive.

That team started 1-6 and finished 6-10. They didn't know how to use Priest until the Redskins game.

If you want to get into serious stats like those that OTWP broke out, here's a link:

http://www.databasefootball.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=KAN&lg=NFL&yr=2001

The 2001 team was 16th in points. They were 5th in yards.

[Rausch]

I don't think going pro-set or I-formation would work any better.

I disagree. In the short term I think making things simpler and infusing Haley's way into this team over time might be most productive.

I could be wrong.

Cox isn't very good and we don't have a tight end who can block worth a shit. And I don't think they'd slow down the pass rush an iota on playaction unless the running plays started to actually work.

Cox is a good athlete but not much of a blocking FB. A good blocking FB is still inexpensive and why teams neglect them is beyond me...

[DaneMcCloud]

The 2001 team was 16th in points. They were 5th in yards.

Ooops.

I guess I didn't sort like I thought I did.

:redface:

[Direckshun]

This is dumb.

We played three of the top five defenses in the league in the first month.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

This is dumb.

We played three of the top five defenses in the league in the first month.

San Diego didn't seem to have a problem racking up nearly 450 passing yards against Baltimore

NO didn't seem to have a problem putting up 48 against Philly

Dallas didn't seem to struggle running all over the Giants and dropping 31 on them.

Those defenses aren't top 5 because they're necessarily great defenses. One of the reasons why they are so high is because they played our sorry asses.

Did we break 200 YPG against any of those fucks?

[chiefzilla1501]

San Diego didn't seem to have a problem racking up nearly 450 passing yards against Baltimore

NO didn't seem to have a problem putting up 48 against Philly

Dallas didn't seem to struggle running all over the Giants and dropping 31 on them.

Those defenses aren't top 5 because they're necessarily great defenses. One of the reasons why they are so high is because they played our sorry asses.

Did we break 200 YPG against any of those ****s?

Philly, NY, and Baltimore are known year in and year out for fielding outstanding defenses. Baltimore's defense, I don't think, is as good as year's passed. But that's a touch benchmark if we're expected to put up as many points as Dallas or especially New Orleans. Most offenses struggle against those 3 defenses.

[Tiger's Fan]

San Diego didn't seem to have a problem racking up nearly 450 passing yards against Baltimore

NO didn't seem to have a problem putting up 48 against Philly

Dallas didn't seem to struggle running all over the Giants and dropping 31 on them.

Those defenses aren't top 5 because they're necessarily great defenses. One of the reasons why they are so high is because they played our sorry asses.

Did we break 200 YPG against any of those ****s?

Are you really this stupid?

Some chick should kick your ass again.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Philly, NY, and Baltimore are known year in and year out for fielding outstanding defenses. Baltimore's defense, I don't think, is as good as year's passed. But that's a touch benchmark if we're expected to put up as many points as Dallas or especially New Orleans. Most offenses struggle against those 3 defenses.

The same Dallas offense that put up 10 last week? Or 13 against Carolina?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Are you really this stupid?

Please, continue to obfuscate and say absolutely nothing, you stupid fuck. It's not like it's completely transparent or anything.

[Mecca]

Please, continue to obfuscate and say absolutely nothing, you stupid fuck. It's not like it's completely transparent or anything.

If you haven't noticed that is how he posts, he never has a take or a view on anything.

[chiefbowe82]

hey mecca can i get you to evaluate a player for me?

[boogblaster]

There was improvement this week ... very little but some ... the draws in the fourth killed us ... plus the first play of the game ... our D gave up too many running plays ... we had a couple bad calls from the refs ... but still I see a small improvement ....

[carlos3652]

San Diego didn't seem to have a problem racking up nearly 450 passing yards against Baltimore

SD still lost, at home... they rushed for less than 40 yds, and 200+yards of the 450 yards were on 4 passes... + I dont think you feel we are even close to having the offense that SD has, do you? Thats a top 5 offense of course they are going to put up numbers at home...


NO didn't seem to have a problem putting up 48 against Philly

NO offense is ridiculous... They put up #'s vs everyone...

Dallas didn't seem to struggle running all over the Giants and dropping 31 on them.

They did struggle, they turned it over 4 times at home vs the giants... they put up #'s at home vs a divisional rival... we would do the same... they lost to them at home...

Those defenses aren't top 5 because they're necessarily great defenses. One of the reasons why they are so high is because they played our sorry asses.

Hamas, i like your posting and usually you make good points... but those defenses are top 5 year in and out...

[Easy 6]

Damn nice website...rep.

Take a real good gander at our Dogshit Draft up there in the right hand corner.

Year after year after year, of THAT...does a lot to explain the current situation.

Could Pioli have done better in free agency, should he have picked up an O-lineman or two in the draft?...the short answer is - yes. But even had he aced all of it, it wouldnt have fixed all of those wasted years.

That draft list for '01 makes me want to, literally, puke.

[Dave Lane]

Holy Jesus.

Those Evelyn Wood Speed Reading classes are really paying off, Mic.

Yawn...

Get back to me next year then we can talk...

[milkman]

We're appreciably worse but that's to be expected when you're installing new offensive and defensive systems and dumping talent like Tony Gonzalez.

By the way, we are a better team than we were at the beginning of last year when we tried to run the pro set to futility. And I believe we will be a better team by the end of the year than we were at the end of 2008.

We took two steps backwards to get pointed in the right direction. It will pay off.

We're not running the pro set to futility this year?

That's a news flash to me.

I see Cassel as only a slight improvement, if that, over Thigpen in the pro set.

His success came in the shotgun and spread formations with the Pats last year, and I haven't really seen any indication yet that he is any more competent out of the pro set than Thigpen.

[Reerun_KC]

So your saying that last year with Edwards we could cruise through this schedule and easily win most of the games????

[milkman]

It would be interesting to see these numbers during Haley's 3rd year when he has been at the helm.

All these numbers tell me is that Haley has put up near identical numbers with an overhauled team in his first year compared to Herms team which had been 3 years in the making...

The roster at the start of last year was overhauled nearly as much as the roster this year.

That team was not 3 years in the making.

[keg in kc]

His success came in the shotgun and spread formations with the Pats last year, and I haven't really seen any indication yet that he is any more competent out of the pro set than Thigpen.Thigpen would have about 312 interceptions by now. Otherwise I agree with you.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't think we are near as much a clusterfuck as we were against Oakland, Carolina and Tennessee last year.

The first-quarter season stats from 2008 are being skewed big time by that game against Denver.

I do not expect this team to get beat 34-0 at any point this year. Nor do I expect a 34-10 loss at home.

Does anyone remember 7 carries, 2 yards for LJ last year in Carolina? I haven't forgotten. I do not expect to see that level if incompetency from this staff.

[milkman]

Exactly. That is a huge difference.

I know I call you a dumbass on occasion.

Don't make it so easy to prove me right.

[Reerun_KC]

The fact that people even care about last years teams and anything Herm Edwards has done here is ****ing stupid....

This is a total new beginning... God so many people love fail and embrace this stupid shit like retards in a room full of gum balls...

[DeezNutz]

I do not expect this team to get beat 34-0 at any point this year. Nor do I expect a 34-10 loss at home.

It's a process.

If you don't think we're going to get absolutely destroyed on the scoreboard this season, you're kidding yourself.

We've already been owned in every statistical category...so it's just a matter of time.

[DeezNutz]

The fact that people even care about last years teams and anything Herm Edwards has done here is ****ing stupid....

This is a total new beginning... God so many people love fail and embrace this stupid shit like retards in a room full of gum balls...

No one cares.

OTW is using last season simply to show what a clusterfuck this year is. It's far from praise of any kind.

[Reerun_KC]

It's a process.

If you don't think we're going to get absolutely destroyed on the scoreboard this season, you're kidding yourself.

We've already been owned in every statistical category...so it's just a matter of time.

True, but at least for the first time in a decade, this team has a plan, direction and goals. They are following it all regardless of the fail on the field...

We will be a much better team in 3 years than we ever were in the last 10 years...

[Hammock Parties]

It's a process.

If you don't think we're going to get absolutely destroyed on the scoreboard this season, you're kidding yourself.

We've already been owned in every statistical category...so it's just a matter of time.

I don't think anyone expected us to lose by 11 to the Giants?

Could it have been worse? Yeah. It could have been 24-0 in the first half. We made a couple plays that made it only shitty instead of downright disgusting.

[DaneMcCloud]

I do not expect this team to get beat 34-0 at any point this year. Nor do I expect a 34-10 loss at home.


LMAO

We know, GoChiefs. You expect LJ to rush for more than a 100 yards each week and you expect the defense to shut down opposing offenses.

It's hilarious. Really.

[Reerun_KC]

No one cares.

OTW is using last season simply to show what a cluster**** this year is. It's far from praise of any kind.

When you take a clusterfuck and try to right the ship? WTF do you think is going to happen....

Not even Jesus himself can unfuck this team after what we just went through.

[DaneMcCloud]

I don't think anyone expected us to lose by 11 to the Giants?

Could it have been worse? Yeah. It could have been 24-0 in the first half. We made a couple plays that made it only shitty instead of downright disgusting.

It could have been much worse if Eli Manning didn't suffer an injury and had to be removed from the game.

It would have been much worse if the Giants hadn't decided to basically run out the clock with David Carr at the helm.

It could have been much worse if the Giants hadn't been playing second teamers on defense in the second half.

The Chiefs lost.

Period.

And, they looked like fucking dogshit in the process.

[Hammock Parties]

LMAO

We know, GoChiefs. You expect LJ to rush for more than a 100 yards each week and you expect the defense to shut down opposing offenses.

It's hilarious. Really.

Why are you putting words in my mouth all of a sudden?

I think this defense sucks, but occasionally a guy like Hali or Flowers steps up and makes a play.

I do think we have shown signs of life in the running game and will continue to get better in that regard.

We're going to be showing major signs of improvement by December. And even then you will be hating.

It's hilarious. Really.

[Reerun_KC]

It could have been much worse if Eli Manning didn't suffer an injury and had to be removed from the game.

It would have been much worse if the Giants hadn't decided to basically run out the clock with David Carr at the helm.

It could have been much worse if the Giants hadn't been playing second teamers on defense in the second half.

The Chiefs lost. Period. And, they looked like ****ing dogshit in the process.

When you start with a Shit sandwich Dane, there isnt a GM, HC or God in this universe that cand make it eatible.....I actually feel sorry at times for Haley and Pioli...

[milkman]

I'm also getting sick of the "our offense left our defense on the field all day" argument.

Bullshit.

Haley preached on and on about how in shape this team was/would be. And you can look at any number of teams that had $3itty offenses and great (not just good, but GREAT) defenses. The Bucs, Bears, Steelers, Ravens, 90's Chiefs most of the time, Dolphins, etc.

Their offenses wouldn't show up entire games and yet the D would make plays to WIN games at the end...

Well, I'm sure where this came from exactly, but that is neither here nor there.

But the Bucs, Bears, Steelers, Ravens, 90's Chiefs are/were outstanding defenses that got off the field, and have/ playmakers to make plays to win games in the end.

Even if the offenses didn't show up, those defenses made enough plays and stops to provide their own rests.

[jaa1025]

These stats are skewed. Last year, the 3 of the 4 teams we played weren't playoff caliber teams. This year, 3 of the 4 are superbowl quality teams. Thats a huge difference. PLUS, that team had 2 years under herm in that crappy system. This team has had a month with the new offense not to mention the new players.

Its like comparing an apple to a hamburger...you can't.

[Hammock Parties]

These stats are skewed. Last year, the 3 of the 4 teams we played weren't playoff caliber teams. This year, 3 of the 4 are superbowl quality teams. Thats a huge difference.

GREAT point. We actually looked like a real football team against the Raiders. We just had a shotgun pointed at our feet.

And like I said, with such a small sample size, one good game against the Broncos is really skewing the data.

[DaneMcCloud]

When you start with a Shit sandwich Dane, there isnt a GM, HC or God in this universe that cand make it eatible.....I actually feel sorry at times for Haley and Pioli...

Not me.

Especially considering what Denver's done this season.

[chiefzilla1501]

It could have been much worse if Eli Manning didn't suffer an injury and had to be removed from the game.

It would have been much worse if the Giants hadn't decided to basically run out the clock with David Carr at the helm.

It could have been much worse if the Giants hadn't been playing second teamers on defense in the second half.

The Chiefs lost.

Period.

And, they looked like ****ing dogshit in the process.

From an offensive side, it was very offensive.

From the defensive side, I don't think it was nearly as bad as you might think. It's important to focus not on the players who won't be here, but the ones who you can build around. I thought the defensive line played much better yesterday. The ILBs didn't play bad. The corners, I though, did a really good job in many instances of going toe-to-toe with receivers.

They still get inconsistent pressure because Hali is way too inconsistent and Vrabel is mostly ineffective. And we need a playmaker at safety. Most of our blown plays were the result of a safety getting there a step or two too late in zone coverage. If we bring in a playmaking safety and an OLB/DE, the defense could actually be okay. And a nose tackle would be nice too. But at least you can boil down the biggest problems to a few key positions, as opposed to an entire defense.

[DaneMcCloud]

Why are you putting words in my mouth all of a sudden?

I think this defense sucks, but occasionally a guy like Hali or Flowers steps up and makes a play.

I do think we have shown signs of life in the running game and will continue to get better in that regard.

We're going to be showing major signs of improvement by December. And even then you will be hating.

It's hilarious. Really.

Well, I think you're out of your fucking mind. As usual.

You're a certified Chiefs Fluffer. This team could be the 1976 & 1977 Tampa Buccaneers and you'd still be waiting outside the stadium to fluff each player and coach.

[milkman]

The fact that people even care about last years teams and anything Herm Edwards has done here is ****ing stupid....

This is a total new beginning... God so many people love fail and embrace this stupid shit like retards in a room full of gum balls...

I don't think there are many people longing for the days of Herman fucking Edwards.

They are simply wondering if the people in charge now are any better.

[Reerun_KC]

Not me.

Especially considering what Denver's done this season.

Give Denver Herm and Carl for 3 years then get back to me... Oh and sprinkle in a touch of DV for kicks....


Just saying...

[Hammock Parties]

Not me.

Especially considering what Denver's done this season.

Denver had more pieces than the Chiefs. That offensive line and those receivers blow the Chiefs' away.

[Reerun_KC]

I don't think there are many people longing for the days of Herman ****ing Edwards.

They are simply wondering if the people in charge now are any better.

A fucking drunk monkey is better....

Shit we played 3 teams that have a legimate shot of a deep playoff run... Tell me that last years coached team would fair ANY better this year with Herm? Please?

Hell the Raiders put up 300 fucking yards rushing last year at arrowhead. 300 FUCKING YARDS....

[Hammock Parties]

Well, I think you're out of your fucking mind. As usual.

You're a certified Chiefs Fluffer. This team could be the 1976 & 1977 Tampa Buccaneers and you'd still be waiting outside the stadium to fluff each player and coach.

I'm not a fluffer. We suck. I actually got laughed at four weeks ago for saying the Chiefs had taken a step backwards, but it has turned out to be totally true. I just don't see it as a bad thing. You apparently believe it means the franchise is full of shit and is headed for doom. I'm more patient.

[Hammock Parties]

Not me.

Especially considering what Denver's done this season.

There's no comparison. Haley and Pioli didn't inherit an offensive line or receivers like Denver's.

The Chiefs might be 2-2 if they swapped offensive lines and receivers with the Broncos. (not to mention schedules)

[Reerun_KC]

I'm not a fluffer. We suck. I actually got laughed at four weeks ago for saying the Chiefs had taken a step backwards, but it has turned out to be totally true. I just don't see it as a bad thing. You apparently believe it means the franchise is full of shit and is headed for doom. I'm more patient.

I am willing to give these guys 3 years...

We had to endure the Herm ball washers when he arrived. Herm is one of the worst coaches to ever, ever coach in the NFL and yet people gave him the benefit of the doubt.

So if people can embrace a proven fail Head Coach.. Why is everyone bailing now when we actually are building a team for the future? Cant figure it out...

Dane?

[DaneMcCloud]

Denver had more pieces than the Chiefs. That offensive line and those receivers blow the Chiefs' away.

Denver added seven new defensive players and hired a real defensive coordinator and they are number one in points in the NFL. More than likely, they'll finish in the top ten.

The Chiefs have added Brown, Jackson, Mays and Vrabel, moved Dorsey, Tank and Derrick Johnson. They're ranked 30th.

While Denver most certainly had more talent on offense, there shouldn't be any excuses for this defense.

[Reerun_KC]

Denver added seven new defensive players and hired a real defensive coordinator and they are number one in points in the NFL. More than likely, they'll finish in the top ten.

The Chiefs have added Brown, Jackson, Mays and Vrabel, moved Dorsey, Tank and Derrick Johnson. They're ranked 30th.

While Denver most certainly had more talent on offense, there shouldn't be any excuses for this defense.

Stop drafting first round lazy ass linemen out of Loser State U....

Problem solved...

[Hammock Parties]

Denver added seven new defensive players and hired a real defensive coordinator and they are number one in points in the NFL. More than likely, they'll finish in the top ten.

The Chiefs have added Brown, Jackson, Mays and Vrabel, moved Dorsey, Tank and Derrick Johnson. They're ranked 30th.

While Denver most certainly had more talent on offense, there shouldn't be any excuses for this defense.

But surely you can recognize the effect the poor offense has on the Chiefs' defense.

Nor did Pioli or Haley inherit a pass rusher like Dumervil or a corner like Bailey.

I don't think the Denver comparison holds any water. They had enough talent to sniff the playoffs last year....the Chiefs had enough talent to sniff the first pick in the draft.

No comparison.

[DaneMcCloud]

I am willing to give these guys 3 years...

We had to endure the Herm ball washers when he arrived. Herm is one of the worst coaches to ever, ever coach in the NFL and yet people gave him the benefit of the doubt.

So if people can embrace a proven fail Head Coach.. Why is everyone bailing now when we actually are building a team for the future? Cant figure it out...

Dane?

I'm not "bailing" and my comments have absolutely nothing to do with the previous coaching staff.

I'm calling a spade a spade.

This team has not improved in any statistical category. This team is committing far more penalties. This team has essentially taken the ball out of their best offensive player's hands, week in and week out.

Haley is in WAY over his head as HC/OC/QB coach. Pendergast is performing as expected. This defense sucks ass.

I'm absolutely LIVID with Pioli's "moves". He failed to address the offensive line, running back and wide receiver in the offseason and the Chiefs would have been much better served to sign a guy like Canty or Ohshansky, allowing the Chiefs to take a true impact player with #3 overall.

How does Percy Harvin sound? Mark Sanchez? Jeremy Maclin? Knowshon Moreno? Hakeem Nicks? Hell, even Vontae Davis?

Who here wouldn't have rather had a combination of ANY of the above players and Canty/Olshansky?

This team is NOT making strides. They are in neutral or moving backwards.

And personally, I'm fucking sick and tired of seeing guys like GoChiefs offer up his fucking anus to people like Larry Johnson, Derrick Johnson, Jamal Charles and the rest of the merry band of fucktards that occupy space on the Chiefs roster.

Haley and Pioli so far, suck ass. If they continue down this path of destroying the roster, this team will NEVER improve.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm not "bailing" and my comments have absolutely nothing to do with the previous coaching staff.

I'm calling a spade a spade.

This team has not improved in any statistical category. This team is committing far more penalties. This team has essentially taken the ball out of their best offensive player's hands, week in and week out.

Haley is in WAY over his head as HC/OC/QB coach. Pendergast is performing as expected. This defense sucks ass.

I'm absolutely LIVID with Pioli's "moves". He failed to address the offensive line, running back and wide receiver in the offseason and the Chiefs would have been much better served to sign a guy like Canty or Ohshansky, allowing the Chiefs to take a true impact player with #3 overall.

How does Percy Harvin sound? Mark Sanchez? Jeremy Maclin? Knowshon Moreno? Hakeem Nicks? Hell, even Vontae Davis?

Who here wouldn't have rather had a combination of ANY of the above players and Canty/Olshansky?

This team is NOT making strides. They are in neutral or moving backwards.

And personally, I'm ****ing sick and tired of seeing guys like GoChiefs offer up his ****ing anus to people like Larry Johnson, Derrick Johnson, Jamal Charles and the rest of the merry band of ****tards that occupy space on the Chiefs roster.

I don't disagree with you on a lot of this.

[Hammock Parties]

This team has not improved in any statistical category.

Last year we gave up 5.0 yards per carry.

This year....4.1.

Would you like to know more?

[DaneMcCloud]

Last year we gave up 5.0 yards per carry.

This year....4.1.

Would you like to know more?

And we've given back those yards in the passing game.

Have you not read the thread starter?

[Deberg_1990]

And personally, I'm ****ing sick and tired of seeing guys like GoChiefs offer up his ****ing anus to people like Larry Johnson, Derrick Johnson, Jamal Charles and the rest of the merry band of ****tards that occupy space on the Chiefs roster.



Thank You.

[Hammock Parties]

And we've given back those yards in the passing game.

Have you not read the thread starter?

Actually the yards per attempt is about the same.

Did I mention we already have five sacks?

Improvement.

[DaneMcCloud]

Actually the yards per attempt is about the same.

Did I mention we already have five sacks?

Improvement.

Excellent.

We're on pace for 25 sacks this season.

Yipeee!

[Hammock Parties]

Excellent.

We're on pace for 25 sacks this season.

Yipeee!

Actually, just 20.

DOUBLE our total from last season.

Hail pederast!

[DaneMcCloud]

Actually, just 20.

DOUBLE our total from last season.

Hail pederast!

Yeah, my bad. Long day.


And Pedergasts sucks more cock than a Thailand tranny hooker.

[Hammock Parties]

Yeah, my bad. Long day.


And Pedergasts sucks more cock than a Thailand tranny hooker.

But less than a cursing german retard!

[Hammock Parties]

Here's some improvement that the thread starter didn't recognize.

KC leads the league in kickoff coverage (17.7 avg.), punt coverage (2.5 avg) and net punting average (44.5). Nice work, special teams.

[Reerun_KC]

Haley and Pioli so far, suck ass. If they continue down this path of destroying the roster, this team will NEVER improve.

So you want them fired?

Who are your replacements?


And please keep your credibilty, dont come with that weak ass Cowher shit...

[OnTheWarpath15]

Here's some improvement that the thread starter didn't recognize.

Because I don't have access to those stats.

Link?

If true, great.

However, I'd say that has more to do with the guys kicking than the coverage unit, but I've been really pleased with Succop so far. Definitely one of the rare bright spots this season.

[Chiefnj2]

How does Percy Harvin sound? Mark Sanchez? Jeremy Maclin? Knowshon Moreno? Hakeem Nicks? Hell, even Vontae Davis?

.

You would have used the #3 pick in the draft on Harvin, Maclin, Moreno, Nicks or Davis?

[DaneMcCloud]

So you want them fired?

Who are your replacements?


And please keep your credibilty, dont come with that weak ass Cowher shit...

No, where did I say that I want them fired?

I said that if they continue down this path of poor personnel evaluation and poor coaching, this team will never improve.

Hopefully, they'll learn on the job. But to date, I'm extremely unhappy with the performance of both, especially considering that we were all expecting so much more.

[DaneMcCloud]

You would have used the #3 pick in the draft on Harvin, Maclin, Moreno, Nicks or Davis?

Over Jackson? Absolutely.

Maybe it doesn't meet the mythical "value chart".

But godfuckingdammit, this team needs playmakers at every skill position.

If you're going to go off the chart, as did Pioli, get me a real impact player.

I said it on draft day. Jackson was a HUGE mistake at #3. Fucking sign Olshansky or Canty to be your DE and grab an impact player at #3.

A REAL game-changer.

[Sure-Oz]

Over Jackson? Absolutely.

Maybe it doesn't meet the mythical "value chart".

But god****ingdammit, this team needs playmakers at every skill position.

If you're going to go off the chart, as did Pioli, get me a real impact player.

I said it on draft day. Jackson was a HUGE mistake at #3. ****ing sign Olshansky or Canty to be your DE and grab an impact player at #3.

A REAL game-changer.

Jackson is definetly boring so far, eric hicks boring....hope he becomes a seymour but im still hoping dorsey becomes a sapp

[OnTheWarpath15]

Jackson is definetly boring so far, eric hicks boring....hope he becomes a seymour but im still hoping dorsey becomes a sapp

If he does, it will be for someone else, as we're not using him that way.

[Sure-Oz]

If he does, it will be for someone else, as we're not using him that way.

It sucks he has no value at all either to trade

[ChiTown]

This is fugging worthless to compare. Seriously, there are some many variables in play, it's meaningless.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

The roster at the start of last year was overhauled nearly as much as the roster this year.

That team was not 3 years in the making.

...sure, the roster was overhauled nearly as much.

We were young, moved some guys around...but the fact that we are implementing new schemes under a new coaching staff...regime...makes this Herm's 3rd year vs. Haley's 1st year a bit more skewed in comparison IMO.

[DaneMcCloud]

This is fugging worthless to compare. Seriously, there are some many variables in play, it's meaningless.

It's NOT meaningless.

99% of the people here thought this franchise was going the wrong direction under Herm, even though he had drafted young players and was working to overhaul the roster.

In the past two years alone, he drafted a stud WR, two young defensive end/tackles (Turk & Tank), a franchise left tackle, a stud DB in Flowers (and a damn good prospect in Carr), a supposed run stuffing DT in Dorsey and more.

Half those guys were sent packing and the rest were converted to a defense in which they weren't drafted to play. What Pioli's done is completely erase the past two drafts - threw them out the window.

Bowe's taken a step backwards, as has Albert. Pollard's gone. Turk's gone. Tank's a part-time player. Dorsey's playing out of position.

So, now that we're on this path, you'd think we'd be improved, right? WRONG. We're worse across the board. In throwing players in the trash in order to convert to a completely different defense, Pioli set the Chiefs back at least one year if not two. And he did nothing to compliment this team in free-agency.

In my opinion, it's an absolutely valid way to evaluate and quantify progress.

And so far, there's been NONE.

It's been all for naught.

[Reerun_KC]

Over Jackson? Absolutely.

Maybe it doesn't meet the mythical "value chart".

But god****ingdammit, this team needs playmakers at every skill position.

If you're going to go off the chart, as did Pioli, get me a real impact player.

I said it on draft day. Jackson was a HUGE mistake at #3. ****ing sign Olshansky or Canty to be your DE and grab an impact player at #3.

A REAL game-changer.

This you cant argue with... We NEED impact players and NEED them badly....

[Reerun_KC]

It's NOT meaningless.

99% of the people here thought this franchise was going the wrong direction under Herm, even though he had drafted young players and was working to overhaul the roster.

In the past two years alone, he drafted a stud WR, two young defensive end/tackles (Turk & Tank), a franchise left tackle, a stud DB in Flowers (and a damn good prospect in Carr), a supposed run stuffing DT in Dorsey and more.

Half those guys were sent packing and the rest were converted to a defense in which they weren't drafted to play. What Pioli's done is completely erase the past two drafts - threw them out the window.

Bowe's taken a step backwards, as has Albert. Pollard's gone. Turk's gone. Tank's a part-time player. Dorsey's playing out of position.

So, now that we're on this path, you'd think we'd be improved, right? WRONG. We're worse across the board. In throwing players in the trash in order to convert to a completely different defense, Pioli set the Chiefs back at least one year if not two. And he did nothing to compliment this team in free-agency.

In my opinion, it's an absolutely valid way to evaluate and quantify progress.

And so far, there's been NONE.

It's been all for naught.

That happens all the time all over the NFL not just in KC.. Many times a new GM and HC come in and want their players, team, etc.....

Yes the last 3 years were all for naught. We knew as they were happening any respectable GM who comes in is going to clean house and start over...

Its sucks, its going to take some time, but if we can endure 3 years of Herm, then we can endure Pioli and Haley finally trying to build a championship team in KC, first time in a long time.

[DaneMcCloud]

That happens all the time all over the NFL not just in KC.. Many times a new GM and HC come in and want their players, team, etc.....

If I'm Clark Hunt interviewing Scott Pioli and Pioli tells me "Hey, my philosophy on defense is the 3-4. So the first order of business is to dump all of your high draft picks from the past two years in order to implement my defense", I say "Thanks for you time" and I'm hiring someone else.

It was absolutely FOOLISH to spend THREE of the top draft picks in 2008 & 2009 on FIVE TECH PLAYERS. The Chiefs should have drafted Sanchez, Mauluga, offensive lineman and skill players in this past draft.

Instead, we're FUCKED for at least two more years because the amount of holes on both defense and offense cannot be filled with even adequate players in the draft and free agency.

Tom Dimitroff got that part right.

Scott Pioli did not.

Yes the last 3 years were all for naught. We knew as they were happening any respectable GM who comes in is going to clean house and start over...

Bullshit. Bull-FUCKING-Shit.

The last three years DID NOT have to be meaning less. The Chiefs made the right decisions in the draft. A pass rushing defensive end opposite Jared Allen. A stud WR to help in the passing game. Two 4-3 DT/DE's. A franchise LT, a college super-stud DT, a stud CB, a very good CB (Carr), etc.

Pioli is the guy that said "Fuck this. We're going 3-4" and basically negated the past few years. Hali can't play OLB in a 3-4. Dorsey's not a 5 Tech. Brandon Albert has taken a HUGE step backwards. Dwayne Bowe looks like fucking Derrick Alexander out there. Flowers and Carr are fine but BFD? Tyson Jackson should have NEVER been drafted with the #3 overall pick.

Pioli IGNORED this shit offensive line in free-agency and the draft and he continues to ignore it.

I'm not even TALKING about Herm or Peterson: This season's failures lie directly in the lap of one man: Scott Pioli.

PERIOD.

[htismaqe]

It was absolutely FOOLISH to spend THREE of the top draft picks in 2008 & 2009 on FIVE TECH PLAYERS. The Chiefs should have drafted Sanchez, Mauluga, offensive lineman and skill players in this past draft.

Let's keep it real here - the above is an opinion. Backed by considerable evidence it would seem, but an opinion nonetheless.

The last three years DID NOT have to be meaning less. The Chiefs made the right decisions in the draft.

There's not much evidence to support this. We've cut several of those draft picks and they sat out there with nobody wanting to pick them up. The guys that did get picked up immediately were guys like Turk McBride, who immediately went to play for Gunther.

[DaneMcCloud]

Let's keep it real here - the above is an opinion. Backed by considerable evidence it would seem, but an opinion nonetheless.

Of course it is. A very opinionated opinion at that.

:D

There's not much evidence to support this. We've cut several of those draft picks and they sat out there with nobody wanting to pick them up. The guys that did get picked up immediately were guys like Turk McBride, who immediately went to play for Gunther.

Well, we cut Pollard, who I did not include. We cut Turk who I felt could certainly be serviceable at a 4-3 player, more so at DT than DE.

The bottom line is that this team had invested heavily in 4-3 players, especially 4-3 defensive lineman and none of these guys had a chance to grow as players. You know as well as anyone that most defensive lineman take at least two years, if not three, to mature.

The Chiefs cut Turk after one.

My feeling is that if they had added a few linebackers, especially a Rey Maualuga and continued with the 4-3, this defense would be much better off now and in the future.

As it stands, we've got a long, long way to go before we even know what we have as a defense.

[Reerun_KC]

If I'm Clark Hunt interviewing Scott Pioli and Pioli tells me "Hey, my philosophy on defense is the 3-4. So the first order of business is to dump all of your high draft picks from the past two years in order to implement my defense", I say "Thanks for you time" and I'm hiring someone else.

It was absolutely FOOLISH to spend THREE of the top draft picks in 2008 & 2009 on FIVE TECH PLAYERS. The Chiefs should have drafted Sanchez, Mauluga, offensive lineman and skill players in this past draft.

Instead, we're ****ED for at least two more years because the amount of holes on both defense and offense cannot be filled with even adequate players in the draft and free agency.

Tom Dimitroff got that part right.

Scott Pioli did not.



Bullshit. Bull-****ING-Shit.

The last three years DID NOT have to be meaning less. The Chiefs made the right decisions in the draft. A pass rushing defensive end opposite Jared Allen. A stud WR to help in the passing game. Two 4-3 DT/DE's. A franchise LT, a college super-stud DT, a stud CB, a very good CB (Carr), etc.

Pioli is the guy that said "**** this. We're going 3-4" and basically negated the past few years. Hali can't play OLB in a 3-4. Dorsey's not a 5 Tech. Brandon Albert has taken a HUGE step backwards. Dwayne Bowe looks like ****ing Derrick Alexander out there. Flowers and Carr are fine but BFD? Tyson Jackson should have NEVER been drafted with the #3 overall pick.

Pioli IGNORED this shit offensive line in free-agency and the draft and he continues to ignore it.

I'm not even TALKING about Herm or Peterson: This season's failures lie directly in the lap of one man: Scott Pioli.

PERIOD.

Feel Better?

[DaneMcCloud]

Feel Better?

Not really.

This is probably the most angry I've ever been as a Chiefs fan.

More so than the Tom Bettis days.

More so than the Wing T with Levy.

More so than with Mackovic and his firing.

Way more than Ganz.

More frustrated than 1997.

Just angry.

[Reerun_KC]

Dane, it just goes to show us as fans, that this franchise has never planned for the future.

Lets hope now that we have a new GM, we are planning for the future. Regardless of what has happened in the darkest of Chiefs years, we might be working towards a goal..

[Reerun_KC]

Not really.

This is probably the most angry I've ever been as a Chiefs fan.

More so than the Tom Bettis days.

More so than the Wing T with Levy.

More so than with Mackovic and his firing.

Way more than Ganz.

More frustrated than 1997.

Just angry.

Now you are feeling what I have felt the Day Herm was hired....

Hell after beeing drug through the depths of hell recently with the Chiefs. To me and my opinion, I feel we have the guys in place to make this better...

Yes it seems bleak, but never as hopeless as it was with Carl and Herm.

[DaneMcCloud]

Dane, it just goes to show us as fans, that this franchise has never planned for the future.

And that continues to this day.

Instead of drafting a young QB, linebackers and offensive lineman, which were positions of dire need, they instead traded for a 27 year-old that played in 15 games in 7 years, signed a 33 year old POS guard and signed a couple of scrubs and a couple of statues to play linebacker.

No foresight, no future, no forward thinking.

Lets hope now that we have a new GM, we are planning for the future. Regardless of what has happened in the darkest of Chiefs years, we might be working towards a goal..

I don't see it.

I just don't see it.

[DaneMcCloud]

Now you are feeling what I have felt the Day Herm was hired....

Well, that's complete nonsense. NO ONE knew what would happen in Kansas City after Herm was hired. He's taken 3 teams out of 5 to the playoffs and still managed to take the Chiefs to the playoffs in his first year even though he lost his starting QB and starting left tackle immediately.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Carl Peterson for allowing this franchise to piss away draft choices for aging players and coaches that brought nothing in the long or short run. They pissed away 35 draft choices over that five year period.

Hell after beeing drug through the depths of hell recently with the Chiefs. To me and my opinion, I feel we have the guys in place to make this better...

To date, I disagree. Haley seems overworked and overmatched and Pioli's personnel moves leave a considerable amount to be desired.

Do you think there's even ONE team in the NFL that would trade their 2009 draft with the Chiefs?

LMAO

Yes it seems bleak, but never as hopeless as it was with Carl and Herm.

I disagree.

It feels exactly the same. Although I liked the 2008 draft much more than the 2009 draft.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Herm was a terrible game day coach, and too much of a slackass in practice. But he had the right idea on how to build a team.

I really wish that we could have used Herm's approach to team building with DV's practice habits, and had a decent talent evaluator with a long term plan

Considering we were deficient in two of the three phases for the last 20 years, with no planning for the future, it's no fucking doubt that we are as bad as we are.

Gun was awful at all three and had no foresight
Vermeil was a decent game day coach, a great practice coach, and terrible at talent, and he was shortsighted
Marty was a mediocre game day coach (awful in the clutch), one of the best practice coaches of all time, and a poor evaluator of talent with middling foresight.
Herm was a terrible gameday coach, a terrible practice coach, and a mediocre talent evaluator with great foresight.

[SDChiefs]

I don't think we are near as much a cluster**** as we were against Oakland, Carolina and Tennessee last year.

The first-quarter season stats from 2008 are being skewed big time by that game against Denver.

I do not expect this team to get beat 34-0 at any point this year. Nor do I expect a 34-10 loss at home.

Does anyone remember 7 carries, 2 yards for LJ last year in Carolina? I haven't forgotten. I do not expect to see that level if incompetency from this staff.

Matt Cassel. 14-18 for 90 yards passing. Hmmm, yeah no incompetence on this staff.

[Chiefnj2]

Well, that's complete nonsense. NO ONE knew what would happen in Kansas City after Herm was hired.



Anyone from the New York area, or any Jet fan could tell you what was going to happen with Herm. And it did happen.

[DaneMcCloud]

Matt Cassel. 14-18 for 90 yards passing. Hmmm, yeah no incompetence on this staff.

If Dick Curl were still the QB coach, we'd never hear the end of it from Reerun.

[DaneMcCloud]

Anyone from the New York area, or any Jet fan could tell you what was going to happen with Herm. And it did happen.

What, that he'd coach a team to the playoffs after losing his franchise left tackle in training camp and his starter on opening day?

Wow, what a bunch of fooking New Yawk geniouses!

[RippedmyFlesh]

Anyone from the New York area, or any Jet fan could tell you what was going to happen with Herm. And it did happen.
Agree the qb killing rrpp herm was familiar to anyone in ny getting jets games. He was fun to watch at press conferences when he WASN'T YOUR coach.

[ThunderChief]

Trust your eyes. Trust you instincts. Really....what the HELL do you think???

[DaneMcCloud]

Agree the qb killing rrpp herm was familiar to anyone in ny getting jets games. He was fun to watch at press conferences when he WASN'T YOUR coach.

So who do you blame for Chad Pennington's current injury status?

You DO know that he's out for the year, right?

Is that Herm's fault?

:shake:

[the Talking Can]

now we're pro-herm....anybody with a brain knew exactly what Herm was, and what he'd do in KC...he was Carl's cronie and he simply continued our mediocrity until it literally imploded...he was a failure anyone could see coming from a mile away, and most here did actually...


this board is in a state of hysteria unlike anything I've ever seen....


like Glenn Beck eating acid and walking through a hall of mirrors while wearing an obama mask hysterics...

[ChiefsCountry]

It's NOT meaningless.

99% of the people here thought this franchise was going the wrong direction under Herm, even though he had drafted young players and was working to overhaul the roster.

In the past two years alone, he drafted a stud WR, two young defensive end/tackles (Turk & Tank), a franchise left tackle, a stud DB in Flowers (and a damn good prospect in Carr), a supposed run stuffing DT in Dorsey and more.

Half those guys were sent packing and the rest were converted to a defense in which they weren't drafted to play. What Pioli's done is completely erase the past two drafts - threw them out the window.

Bowe's taken a step backwards, as has Albert. Pollard's gone. Turk's gone. Tank's a part-time player. Dorsey's playing out of position.

So, now that we're on this path, you'd think we'd be improved, right? WRONG. We're worse across the board. In throwing players in the trash in order to convert to a completely different defense, Pioli set the Chiefs back at least one year if not two. And he did nothing to compliment this team in free-agency.

In my opinion, it's an absolutely valid way to evaluate and quantify progress.

And so far, there's been NONE.

It's been all for naught.

If I'm Clark Hunt interviewing Scott Pioli and Pioli tells me "Hey, my philosophy on defense is the 3-4. So the first order of business is to dump all of your high draft picks from the past two years in order to implement my defense", I say "Thanks for you time" and I'm hiring someone else.

It was absolutely FOOLISH to spend THREE of the top draft picks in 2008 & 2009 on FIVE TECH PLAYERS. The Chiefs should have drafted Sanchez, Mauluga, offensive lineman and skill players in this past draft.

Instead, we're ****ED for at least two more years because the amount of holes on both defense and offense cannot be filled with even adequate players in the draft and free agency.

Tom Dimitroff got that part right.

Scott Pioli did not.



Bullshit. Bull-****ING-Shit.

The last three years DID NOT have to be meaning less. The Chiefs made the right decisions in the draft. A pass rushing defensive end opposite Jared Allen. A stud WR to help in the passing game. Two 4-3 DT/DE's. A franchise LT, a college super-stud DT, a stud CB, a very good CB (Carr), etc.

Pioli is the guy that said "**** this. We're going 3-4" and basically negated the past few years. Hali can't play OLB in a 3-4. Dorsey's not a 5 Tech. Brandon Albert has taken a HUGE step backwards. Dwayne Bowe looks like ****ing Derrick Alexander out there. Flowers and Carr are fine but BFD? Tyson Jackson should have NEVER been drafted with the #3 overall pick.

Pioli IGNORED this shit offensive line in free-agency and the draft and he continues to ignore it.

I'm not even TALKING about Herm or Peterson: This season's failures lie directly in the lap of one man: Scott Pioli.

PERIOD.

:clap::clap::clap:

[ChiefsCountry]

now we're pro-herm....anybody with a brain knew exactly what Herm was, and what he'd do in KC...he was Carl's cronie and he simply continued our mediocrity until it literally imploded...he was a failure anyone could see coming from a mile away, and most here did actually...

Herm had the right idea to build the roster - his problem was his coaching.

[DaneMcCloud]

Herm had the right idea to build the roster - his problem was his coaching.

Exactly.

If Herm had been allowed to begin the rebuilding process in 2006 or 2007, do I think he'd be the head coach today?

No.

But, for the first time in nearly 40 years, someone inside this organization had it right.

Build your team through the draft.

Period.

[Reerun_KC]

So who do you blame for Chad Pennington's current injury status?

You DO know that he's out for the year, right?

Is that Herm's fault?

:shake:

Yes..... :D

110%

[Reerun_KC]

now we're pro-herm....anybody with a brain knew exactly what Herm was, and what he'd do in KC...he was Carl's cronie and he simply continued our mediocrity until it literally imploded...he was a failure anyone could see coming from a mile away, and most here did actually...


this board is in a state of hysteria unlike anything I've ever seen....


like Glenn Beck eating acid and walking through a hall of mirrors while wearing an obama mask hysterics...


I agree TTC, some of the best posters on the board are in full meltdown mode? Just a bunch of crazy talk, They begged for change and when change happened? They paniced...

I am not sure what is happening, but something is runnng a muck through this message board..

It is scary.... Very scary....

[Fish]

Herm had the right idea to build the roster - his problem was his coaching.

:clap:

[DaneMcCloud]

I agree TTC, some of the best posters on the board are in full meltdown mode? Just a bunch of crazy talk, They begged for change and when change happened? They paniced...



No.

People that are "upset" didn't beg for change.

They asked for improvement.

"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss".

[chiefzilla1501]

Exactly.

If Herm had been allowed to begin the rebuilding process in 2006 or 2007, do I think he'd be the head coach today?

No.

But, for the first time in nearly 40 years, someone inside this organization had it right.

Build your team through the draft.

Period.

FINALLY.

I have taken so much shit with this same exact position. A LOT of shit.

[chiefzilla1501]

That happens all the time all over the NFL not just in KC.. Many times a new GM and HC come in and want their players, team, etc.....

Yes the last 3 years were all for naught. We knew as they were happening any respectable GM who comes in is going to clean house and start over...

Its sucks, its going to take some time, but if we can endure 3 years of Herm, then we can endure Pioli and Haley finally trying to build a championship team in KC, first time in a long time.

If Herm Edwards didn't insist on the rebuild, we'd be two years behind schedule. Whether you agree or not about the talent he brought in, you can't deny that he made a very bold move to demand that he take a wrecking ball and rebuild from scratch.

Herm knew he'd end up losing a lot of games in 2008. He could've easily told Peterson to spend a bunch of money to make the team a fringe playoff contender, but he insisted that he do it the right way. Much as people hate Herm, he fell on his sword for the good of the franchise.

You think Pioli had a hard time getting rid of Herm guys. Imagine how much tougher it would have been if we had a bunch of average, cap-eating free agents on our roster right now. At least when Pioli cut Herm's young guys, they were free to cut.

[SAUTO]

Herm had the right idea to build the roster - his problem was his coaching.

IMO herms problem was THE PLAYERS he picked coupled with his coaching.

[DaneMcCloud]

IMO herms problem was THE PLAYERS he picked coupled with his coaching.

Like who?

Hali? Bowe? Flowers? Carr? Leggett? Dorsey? Albert? Page?

Who?

[CoMoChief]

if there isn't an uncapped year I hope Clark will spend some money on some good,young free agents.. It would be nice for a change

Good young FA's don't hit the FA market, Only the Chiefs get rid of their good young players (JA).

[SAUTO]

Like who?

Hali? Bowe? Flowers? Carr? Leggett? Dorsey? Albert? Page?

Who?

come on dane, hali? he gets so much shit on this board. how about mcbride? pollard? there's more. for sure

[Reerun_KC]

If Herm Edwards didn't insist on the rebuild, we'd be two years behind schedule. Whether you agree or not about the talent he brought in, you can't deny that he made a very bold move to demand that he take a wrecking ball and rebuild from scratch.

Herm knew he'd end up losing a lot of games in 2008. He could've easily told Peterson to spend a bunch of money to make the team a fringe playoff contender, but he insisted that he do it the right way. Much as people hate Herm, he fell on his sword for the good of the franchise.

You think Pioli had a hard time getting rid of Herm guys. Imagine how much tougher it would have been if we had a bunch of average, cap-eating free agents on our roster right now. At least when Pioli cut Herm's young guys, they were free to cut.

Fair enough, I am all for the rebuild from scratch, but not with Herm within 1000 miles of KC...

Glad he feel on a sword, he sucked, plain and simple....

[the Talking Can]

Herm used rebuilding to buy himself another year excuse free...it blew up in his face, thankfully....


Herm only had a job because of Carl. Period. And if he wasn't under Carl's thumb and truly "bold" he would have rebuilt right away...and not stuck with Gunther.

Herm brought us Huard and Croyle and Thigpen. Whoppity fucking doo.

fascinating to watch history being re-written in this thread....Herm the great talent evaluator! Herm the bold rebuilder! Herm the great motivator!

LMAO

:banghead:

:deevee:

[TEX]

If Herm Edwards didn't insist on the rebuild, we'd be two years behind schedule. Whether you agree or not about the talent he brought in, you can't deny that he made a very bold move to demand that he take a wrecking ball and rebuild from scratch.

Herm knew he'd end up losing a lot of games in 2008. He could've easily told Peterson to spend a bunch of money to make the team a fringe playoff contender, but he insisted that he do it the right way. Much as people hate Herm, he fell on his sword for the good of the franchise.

You think Pioli had a hard time getting rid of Herm guys. Imagine how much tougher it would have been if we had a bunch of average, cap-eating free agents on our roster right now. At least when Pioli cut Herm's young guys, they were free to cut.

IMO, Herm is a master manipulator who gained Clark's ear with the whole rebuild thing. He hoped that it would "buy" him more time - plain and simple. I don't give that clown any credit for doing anything for the "good" of the franchise. It was more about his personal gain. Problem is his plan backfired when Carl stepped down. Herm was / is more shrewd than anything else.

[POND_OF_RED]

I think one stat that increased is games against defending playoff teams. 1 last year. 3 this year. I think that evens out the numbers a little IMO.

[BWillie]

The players are trying too hard to not make mistakes, like a driver that is too cautious causing wrecks

I don't know how a driver that is too cautious of causing wrecks would make more mistakes. LOL

I just don't understand that analogy?

[DaneMcCloud]

Herm used rebuilding to buy himself another year excuse free...it blew up in his face, thankfully....

You're wrong. Herm wanted to rebuild in 2006 and again in 2007.

Peterson said no both times.

Herm only had a job because of Carl.

This is intellectually dishonest.

Herm had taken the NY Jets to the playoffs three out of five years. If the Chiefs hadn't traded for him, it's likely that he would have gotten another job elsewhere.

Don't pretend to know more than you do.

Period. And if he wasn't under Carl's thumb and truly "bold" he would have rebuilt right away...and not stuck with Gunther.

So, when you're hired by the President of a company that you know needs to be re-organized, you just walk in the door and say "X, X and X need to happen, NOW, Motherfucker"?

Given the level of intelligence you repeatedly display in this forum, I find that highly unlikely.

Herm brought us Huard and Croyle and Thigpen. Whoppity fucking doo.

Again, more bullshit from the Talking Can.

Huard had been on the Chiefs roster since 2004. Croyle was a third round draft choice. Thigpen was a waiver pick up who BTW, just netted a draft pick in return. Croyle played better than the $60 million dollar man.

What a load of horseshit.

fascinating to watch history being re-written in this thread....Herm the great talent evaluator! Herm the bold rebuilder! Herm the great motivator!

Rewritten? Again, WTF are you talking about?

And I'll tell you what: I'll take the 2008 draft every day of the week over the 2009 draft.

[DaneMcCloud]

I think one stat that increased is games against defending playoff teams. 1 last year. 3 this year. I think that evens out the numbers a little IMO.

Losses are losses.

Plain and simple.

[Reerun_KC]

Losses are losses.

Plain and simple.

And Herm racked them up at an alarming rate...


Plain and simple....

[SAUTO]

You're wrong. Herm wanted to rebuild in 2006 and again in 2007.

Peterson said no both times.



This is intellectually dishonest.

Herm had taken the NY Jets to the playoffs three out of five years. If the Chiefs hadn't traded for him, it's likely that he would have gotten another job elsewhere.

Don't pretend to know more than you do.



So, when you're hired by the President of a company that you know needs to be re-organized, you just walk in the door and say "X, X and X need to happen, NOW, Motherfucker"?

Given the level of intelligence you repeatedly display in this forum, I find that highly unlikely.



Again, more bullshit from the Talking Can.

Huard had been on the Chiefs roster since 2004. Croyle was a third round draft choice. Thigpen was a waiver pick up who BTW, just netted a draft pick in return. Croyle played better than the $60 million dollar man.

What a load of horseshit.



Rewritten? Again, WTF are you talking about?

And I'll tell you what: I'll take the 2008 draft every day of the week over the 2009 draft.

dane, there are MANY posts on this site that bash herm for his talent evaluation. i'm too busy to search but i would bet you have at least a couple

[DaneMcCloud]

dane, there are MANY posts on this site that bash herm for his talent evaluation. i'm too busy to search but i would bet you have at least a couple

Jason, I don't give a fuck about "other people".

If you're going to bash someone, back it up.

[Chiefless]

Sometimes in order to clean up a mess you have to make an even bigger mess. I just hope Haley/Pioli know what their doing, because this team has been completely taken apart...and the putting it back together part does not seem to be going according to plan. This off-season better see the shoring up of the o-line. Because that unit is unwatchable right now.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I agree TTC, some of the best posters on the board are in full meltdown mode? Just a bunch of crazy talk, They begged for change and when change happened? They paniced...

I am not sure what is happening, but something is runnng a muck through this message board..

It is scary.... Very scary....

Jesus Christ, no one is pro Herm. You aren't this fucking stupid. No one is. Saying that Herm had the right idea on how to build a franchise does not mean that he was a good coach, or that he was the right guy to continue the rebuild.

It means what it means: building through the draft is the way to go.

Anyone who wants to extract that someone is "pro-Herm" from that is a morally bankrupt cocksucker.

[keg in kc]

Jason, I don't give a **** about "other people".

If you're going to bash someone, back it up.Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.

[DaneMcCloud]

And Herm racked them up at an alarming rate...


Plain and simple....

So did Vermeil.

2001 & 2002: 14-18

2006 & 2007: 13-19

Are you bitching about a one game difference or are you bitching about Year 3, when he was finally allowed to blow shit the fuck up?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Herm used rebuilding to buy himself another year excuse free...it blew up in his face, thankfully....


Herm only had a job because of Carl. Period. And if he wasn't under Carl's thumb and truly "bold" he would have rebuilt right away...and not stuck with Gunther.

Herm brought us Huard and Croyle and Thigpen. Whoppity fucking doo.

fascinating to watch history being re-written in this thread....Herm the great talent evaluator! Herm the bold rebuilder! Herm the great motivator!

LMAO

:banghead:

:deevee:

Nice to see that TheTalkingGoebbels still has the reading comprehension of a Fragile X child.

[the Talking Can]

Nice to see that TheTalkingGoebbels still has the reading comprehension of a Fragile X child.

dude, you totally got me...and you didn't even have to post that one gif you post in every post either....good job, dude...

[SAUTO]

Jason, I don't give a fuck about "other people".

If you're going to bash someone, back it up.

dane i wouldnt bash you. but i do recall your posts about this being the LEAST talented team in football. many in fact. who was responsible for that? herm and carl. the blame falls on both

[Reerun_KC]

So did Vermeil.

2001 & 2002: 14-18

2006 & 2007: 13-19

Are you bitching about a one game difference or are you bitching about Year 3, when he was finally allowed to blow shit the **** up?

And he blew this franchise the fuck up!

Vermiel started planting the bombs, Herm pushed the button...

[SAUTO]

Jason, I don't give a fuck about "other people".

If you're going to bash someone, back it up.

Dude, you're preaching to the pastor.

I've been complaining about the Chiefs drafts on the 'Planet for years. I've been saying since 2007 that the roster has been depleted of talent. I've been countering people who told me that guys like Kevin Samson and Will Svittek and Tre Stallings "just needed time".

This roster is the least talented in the NFL and it's going to take a few years, at best, before they've got guys that can take over a game and WIN.

Nah.

This is the most talent-depleted roster in the entire league.

The team that Marty took over had a plethora of high first and high second round picks.

The current roster is pretty much crap.

While that's true to some extent, let's not confuse the Chiefs 2008 roster with the roster of the 1994 Dallas Cowboys, 1989 49ers or even the current elite teams such as the Giants, Panthers, Ravens and Patriots.

The Chiefs have a few more drafts and several holes to fill in free-agency before declaring this roster "talented".

.[/QUOTE]

here are just a few posts dane. all from this year 2009. the 2nd from last was 1-29-2009

[DaneMcCloud]

.

here are just a few posts dane. all from this year 2009.[/quote]

Jason, I wasn't talking about the drafts that occurred in 2007 and 2008 (hell, really not even 2009).

I don't really have a problem with Herm's drafts, especially 2008.

It's other people that have a problem with Herm, period.

[JD10367]

The "better or worse after four games" argument is a short-term view. You need to think long-term. As has been said before, Pioli could've easily made the Chiefs look really good. He could've kept Tony Gonzalez. He could've hired a "name" coach. He could've signed an old retread QB like Jeff Garcia. And the Chiefs might be 2-2 right now, and might bob along to a 7-9 or 8-8 record. But as a team they wouldn't be any better in the long-term, with no plan or solution. Thinking short-term is what got the Chiefs into the mess they're in. Sometimes you have to suffer a bit more on the front end to get the results on the back end.

[SAUTO]

here are just a few posts dane. all from this year 2009.

Jason, I wasn't talking about the drafts that occurred in 2007 and 2008 (hell, really not even 2009).

I don't really have a problem with Herm's drafts, especially 2008.

It's other people that have a problem with Herm, period.[/QUOTE]

dane if herms drafts were so great how could we have the least talented roster in the league?

[SAUTO]

the quote function must be fucked up today

[DaneMcCloud]

The "better or worse after four games" argument is a short-term view. You need to think long-term. As has been said before, Pioli could've easily made the Chiefs look really good. He could've kept Tony Gonzalez. He could've hired a "name" coach. He could've signed an old retread QB like Jeff Garcia. And the Chiefs might be 2-2 right now, and might bob along to a 7-9 or 8-8 record. But as a team they wouldn't be any better in the long-term, with no plan or solution. Thinking short-term is what got the Chiefs into the mess they're in. Sometimes you have to suffer a bit more on the front end to get the results on the back end.

You're missing the whole point of this discussion:

Pioli didn't ANYTHING this year long-term for the Chiefs.

Do you think Goff will be with the Chiefs next year? Vrabel? Waters? LJ? Bradley? Mays? Belcher? Hell, even DJ? Ron Edwards?

Where's the "foundation" of the future? Where's the game-changers? Where's the improvement, period?

Oh that's right: There is none.

[Reerun_KC]

You're missing the whole point of this discussion:

Pioli didn't ANYTHING this year long-term for the Chiefs.

Do you think Goff will be with the Chiefs next year? Vrabel? Waters? LJ? Bradley? Mays? Belcher? Hell, even DJ? Ron Edwards?

Where's the "foundation" of the future? Where's the game-changers? Where's the improvement, period?

Oh that's right: There is none.


I guess they should just quit and dissolve the franchise?

[DaneMcCloud]

dane if herms drafts were so great how could we have the least talented roster in the league?

Jason, how many draft picks are there per year?

Oh, that's right: 7.

So, if the Chiefs hit on every single player during Herm's three year tenure (which is virtually impossible for any team to achieve), that's 21 players.

21 players. Out of 53.

Now, that nonsense aside, let's say the Chiefs went 4-3 this year instead of fucking up the last three years and changing to the 3-4.

The Chiefs would have Flowers, Carr, Page, Hali, Dorsey, Turk, Tank, Albert, Cottam, Charles, Morgan, Pollard, Bowe, Leggett, Derrick Johnson and Kolby Smith as their building blocks.

How many guys is that? 16 guys. 16 guys out of 53.

You still need another seven very good players to complete your starting roster, which the Chiefs STILL do not have. Center, Right Guard, Right Tackle, two linebackers, two wide receivers, two running backs and a ton of depth. Oh, and a QB.

I'd say that's the least talented roster in the league, especially given that many of those guys are nothing more than average.

[DaneMcCloud]

I guess they should just quit and dissolve the franchise?

Are you kidding?

It's already been completely dismantled.

As I've said since November 2008: This is an expansion franchise in terms of talent.

[SAUTO]

Jason, how many draft picks are there per year?

Oh, that's right: 7.

So, if the Chiefs hit on every single player during Herm's three year tenure (which is virtually impossible for any team to achieve), that's 21 players.

21 players. Out of 53.

Now, that nonsense aside, let's say the Chiefs went 4-3 this year instead of fucking up the last three years and changing to the 3-4.

The Chiefs would have Flowers, Carr, Page, Hali, Dorsey, Turk, Tank, Albert, Cottam, Charles, Morgan, Pollard, Bowe, Leggett, Derrick Johnson and Kolby Smith as their building blocks.

How many guys is that? 16 guys. 16 guys out of 53.

You still need another seven very good players to complete your starting roster, which the Chiefs STILL do not have. Center, Right Guard, Right Tackle, two linebackers, two wide receivers, two running backs and a ton of depth. Oh, and a QB.

I'd say that's the least talented roster in the league, especially given that many of those guys are nothing more than average.

cottam smith turk hali morgan pollard? come on dane

[DaneMcCloud]

cottam smith turk hali morgan pollard? come on dane

What? Are you telling me that those guys aren't average football players?

Your roster cannot be built on the backs of Superstars.

You need average to above average players at most positions, save QB and pass rusher, who need to be exceptional if there's any chance of a championship.

Everyone can't be a Pro-Bowler, Jason.

And as it stands currently, the Chiefs have maybe eight players on their roster that are average or above.

The rest suck ass.

[DeezNutz]

dane i wouldnt bash you. but i do recall your posts about this being the LEAST talented team in football. many in fact. who was responsible for that? herm and carl. the blame falls on both

Carl, then DV, then...................Herm.

The only talent on the team comes from the Herm years. DV and Carl's blind loyalty and indiscretion to Grandpa are the elements that really fucked this franchise.

[Reerun_KC]

Carl, then DV, then...................Herm.

The only talent on the team comes from the Herm years. DV and Carl's blind loyalty and indiscretion to Grandpa are the elements that really ****ed this franchise.'

Agreed, but the so called talent that came form the Herm years is pretty bleak....

[SAUTO]

What? Are you telling me that those guys aren't average football players?


.

so cottam is an avg nfl player? pollard? turk hali? i dont buy it

[Fish]

dane if herms drafts were so great how could we have the least talented roster in the league?

We've had the least talented roster for a lot longer than most people realized. It was masked by several factors. Petersen became an absolute genius on how to have a borderline horrible team and still keep people entertained just enough not to jump. And that went on for a long time. He ignored the draft and placated fans with mediocrity. He satisfied fans with Tony G, and neglected the WR position. He sold fans on the TE being the leading receiver for years. Which is a travesty. He loaded up the offense for a while, and neglected the defense. But we still won just enough and threw enough TDs that fans held hope. Even though he let our defense get so bad we couldn't do a damn thing with the powerful offense. Realistically we didn't have a legit chance. But he kept the team borderline enough to drag fans along, while the roster got older and older and those long contracts were all getting bigger and bigger. It was safer to overpay old guys that they knew then taking chances on draft guys or inexperienced players. Those contracts built up and the roster got older and the backups got worse. He didn't bother trying to draft a QB, because it was much safer to go with has-beens for modest contracts. And the plan worked. The front office got stale and nobody pushed for significant change because nobody wanted to rock the boat.

Herm stepped in and at least made an effort to change the ways of the franchise. We needed to put more focus on the draft and create competition and he planned to emphasize that. He saw the need for the team to get younger. He ended up being a really crappy game day coach.

That's how I think we landed the worst talented roster in the league.

[SAUTO]

'

Agreed, but the so called talent that came form the Herm years is pretty bleak....

yep.

[Mecca]

'

Agreed, but the so called talent that came form the Herm years is pretty bleak....

While true the switching of defensive schemes made those guys either more incompetent or completely useless.

[SAUTO]

While true the switching of defensive schemes made those guys either more incompetent or completely useless.

so mecca what do you think of the guys dane named as building blocks of the franchise?

[Reerun_KC]

While true the switching of defensive schemes made those guys either more incompetent or completely useless.


Agreed, and if your going to switch to a 3-4, get a 3-4 coach like mike nolan...

not some douche nuckle....

This guy is a mini gunther...

[Mecca]

so mecca what do you think of the guys dane named as building blocks of the franchise?

I didn't see that post so I can't really comment on it.

[R&GHomer]

Good luck with that. We've almost never spent the kind of money necessary to bring in expensive, 2nd contract players.

True, but I'm crossing my fingers that he "Clark" dips into the old piggy bank and Free's up some of that coin he hasn't spent over the last couple of seasons. We will see, I'm not holding my breath, just hopeful.

[SAUTO]

I didn't see that post so I can't really comment on it.

ROFL and you cant look back a page?

[SAUTO]

The Chiefs would have Flowers, Carr, Page, Hali, Dorsey, Turk, Tank, Albert, Cottam, Charles, Morgan, Pollard, Bowe, Leggett, Derrick Johnson and Kolby Smith as their building blocks.

.

here is the list mecca. he also said they are all average players

[Mecca]

I really didn't like about half those picks....

[SAUTO]

I really didn't like about half those picks....

but are they average players that would form the nucleus of a good/great team?

[Mecca]

It's hard to say some of those guys haven't played enough..

That's something I really have a gripe with, this team fucking sucks, put DaJuan Morgan on the field, put Cottam on the field, Sean Ryan and Mike Brown mean shit to us.

Dorsey was a building block, he's not now.

[SAUTO]

It's hard to say some of those guys haven't played enough..

That's something I really have a gripe with, this team fucking sucks, put DaJuan Morgan on the field, put Cottam on the field, Sean Ryan and Mike Brown mean shit to us.

Dorsey was a building block, he's not now.
maybe those guys arent any better than what we are putting out there. remember that herm didnt play them much and they were his guys

[ChiefsCountry]

maybe those guys arent any better than what we are putting out there. remember that herm didnt play them much and they were his guys

Maybe its bc they were rookies. And Cottam played quite abit actually.

[SAUTO]

Maybe its bc they were rookies. And Cottam played quite abit actually.

hey flowers charles carr leggett dorsey, they all played as rooks no? herm wasnt scared to play rookies why didnt those play? morgan cant see the field through two coaches. why?

[whoman69]

The stats are way skewed for those games. If you recall we doubled our point output in the 4th game against Denver where we put up an Arena League 33 points on the board. After the bye we came down to Earth again and got shut out 34-0 by Carolina. They switched to the spread two weeks later after only scoring 10 against Tennessee in which Huard and Croyle were both hurt. Pre-spread we scored 12.5 points per game.

[Reerun_KC]

It's hard to say some of those guys haven't played enough..

That's something I really have a gripe with, this team ****ing sucks, put DaJuan Morgan on the field, put Cottam on the field, Sean Ryan and Mike Brown mean shit to us.

Dorsey was a building block, he's not now.

So answer this? Does the new GM and HC have to follow the previous GM and HC's direction because of the draft picks?

Or do they build it the way they want and take the losses up front?

Just curious?

[SAUTO]

Maybe its bc they were rookies. And Cottam played quite abit actually.

oh yeah cottam of the great 7 catches in 16 games? and the guy who doesnt know what blocking is?

[ChiefsCountry]

oh yeah cottam of the great 7 catches in 16 games? and the guy who doesnt know what blocking is?

Playing behind freaking Tony Gonzalez. He showed some flashes last year of being a pretty good starter in the NFL.

[Raptor]

[QUOTE=chiefzilla1501;6146196]Much as people hate Herm, he fell on his sword for the good of the franchise.

/QUOTE]

I'm not a Herm Lover or hater, but I agree with this statement. It did take some guts to do what he did and he ended up paying a heavy price for it.

[milkman]

FINALLY.

I have taken so much shit with this same exact position. A LOT of shit.

No, you took shit because of your position that he should have been retained beyond last season because he had just started the rebuild.

Hell, I agree that he finally did what needed to be done, but he's a terrible fucking coach, and there's no way in hell that I wanted him here from the start, much less another year or two.

Let's rebuild with a coach who actually has a chance to grow with the team.

[Chiefless]

but are they average players that would form the nucleus of a good/great team?

I think the chiefs need to look at it this way: The nucleus of this team is everything but the O-Line. Nobody's job in that unit should be safe. If you get an upgrade at any of those positions I think you take it (even if it means moving players like Albert or Waters to another position or off the team). There is a severe lack of talent on that line. It's so bad in my opinion that there's really no way to properly evaluate the rest of the entire team. If they get the o-line in order I think we'll find that most of the other units are at least NFL-average.

[StcChief]

It all starts up front. DL has gotta alot of attention, time to turn that to OLine....Rome wasn't built in a day.

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm used rebuilding to buy himself another year excuse free...it blew up in his face, thankfully....


Herm only had a job because of Carl. Period. And if he wasn't under Carl's thumb and truly "bold" he would have rebuilt right away...and not stuck with Gunther.

Herm brought us Huard and Croyle and Thigpen. Whoppity ****ing doo.

fascinating to watch history being re-written in this thread....Herm the great talent evaluator! Herm the bold rebuilder! Herm the great motivator!

LMAO

:banghead:

:deevee:

Bullshit revisionist history.

It's been well publicized that Herm wanted to rebuild a year earlier.

And it's been pretty much well publicized that Herm pushed for it and Carl Peterson refused, and that the relationship soured, and that Herm had to go all the way to Clark Hunt to finally get it done.

What the fuck is the head coach supposed to do when your GM, the guy who signs off on all the decisions for the team, refuses to let you do what you think you need to do?

And yes, opening up a can of worms because I know milkman is going to react to this, but I still don't understand why people think Gunther and Solari was Herm's call. We know now that Gunther and Herm never saw eye-to-eye on the defense. We saw in year 2 that Herm hated Solari's offense so much that he forced Solari to scrap it in favor of a more conservative scheme. You can either choose to believe that Herm wanted to hire two coaches who ran schemes that he hated, or you can come to the logical conclusion that the only reason Solari and Gun were kept on Herm's coaching staff was because of Peterson's long history of being overly loyal to coaches within his network. After all, how do you think Herm was hired? It wasn't through an open interview process. Herm was hired because he was in Peterson's rolodex. Just like Gunther and Solari.

[chiefzilla1501]

No, you took shit because of your position that he should have been retained beyond last season because he had just started the rebuild.

Hell, I agree that he finally did what needed to be done, but he's a terrible ****ing coach, and there's no way in hell that I wanted him here from the start, much less another year or two.

Let's rebuild with a coach who actually has a chance to grow with the team.

I'm not afraid to still stand by that position. But you're oversimplifying it. I said that Herm should have been kept on board because I expected Carl Peterson to be on the last year of his contract, and that if Herm didn't put up results in 2009, he should have been fired alongside Peterson. The minute Peterson was fired, I said that Herm was probably going to be fired and it was a shitty, but correct decision to make.

As much as people hate Herm, he got a really shitty deal. He was basically promised that he could blow up the franchise, and the front office would be patient enough to let him go through a rough 2008 season because it was something that had to be done. It was the right business decision, but it's pretty shitty when a coach is the victim of a broken promise.

[Chiefless]

I'm not afraid to still stand by that position. But you're oversimplifying it. I said that Herm should have been kept on board because I expected Carl Peterson to be on the last year of his contract, and that if Herm didn't put up results in 2009, he should have been fired alongside Peterson. The minute Peterson was fired, I said that Herm was probably going to be fired and it was a shitty, but correct decision to make.

As much as people hate Herm, he got a really shitty deal. He was basically promised that he could blow up the franchise, and the front office would be patient enough to let him go through a rough 2008 season because it was something that had to be done. It was the right business decision, but it's pretty shitty when a coach is the victim of a broken promise.

That makes me hate herm less. But he did preside over the collapsing of the Chiefs. I'm not real sure Edwards feels real bad tho. Trying to fix the mess you made under the eye of a new management is hard enough but I bet Pioli is a MAJOR hard ass to work for. In a way I think Pioli did Edwards a favor by letting him go.

[easymobee]

There's no comparison. Haley and Pioli didn't inherit an offensive line or receivers like Denver's.

The Chiefs might be 2-2 if they swapped offensive lines and receivers with the Broncos. (not to mention schedules)

McDaniels and Xanders didn't inherit a 100 million dollar DL like the new KC brass did either.

Or land a new franchise QB in the offseason.

just kidding Goatcheese ........ bump - this was an interesting thread to read through