Trent Green & Matt Cassel, get off Cassel's back

[Ralphy Boy]

Didn't care to bury this in the thread about drafting a QB.

I'm not saying they are identical in every way, Green was less accurate in STL than Cassel was in NE but had a higher QB rating, yet there are many similarities between the two, except Green had a lot more experience and weapons in KC in 2001 than Cassel has now.

The only reason both ended up here was because they played huge for one season when the starting QB got hurt and the team converted to the offense that each QB had success with the prior season.

First season for both in KC:
Trent Green had a 56.6% completion % with a 71.1 QB rating, tossing 17 TD's & 24 INT's with 3,783 yards on 296 completed passes.

Matt Cassel has a 53.9% completion % with a 72.3 QB rating, tossing 13 TD's & 9 INT's with 1,982 yards on 188 completed passes so far.

Comparable numbers except that Green had a Pro Bowl TE that caught 73 of those balls for 917 yards and Priest had 1,555 yards rushing & 62 receptions for 614 yards. Priest was a huge reason that Green's completion % was as high as it was and Cassel hasn't got anywhere near the talent that Green had to work with.

Green had a 60.4% completion % with a 101.8 QB rating in STL, with stud receivers in 2000.
Cassel had a 63.4% completion % with an 89.4 QB rating in NE, with stud receivers in 2008.

Both took over the best offense in the league, though Green had the better running game with the league MVP, Faulk, rushing for 1,389 yards with 18 TD's and catching 81 balls for 830 yards & 8 more TD's. Cassel's leading rusher had 727 yards & 7 TD's. So even though Green had a higher QB rating, you could make the argument that Cassel was better filling in for NE in 2008 than Green was in STL in 2000.

The only reason Green got the job in STL was because of how he played in Washington in 1998.
Green's 1998 season in DC = 278 completions on 509 attempts for a 54.6% completion %, with 3,441 yards, 23TD's & 11 INT's and a 81.8 QB rating. His leading receiver had 44 catches for 736 yards, so those were very good numbers with no talent around him.
Cassel's 2008 season in NE = 327 completions on 516 attempts 63.4% completion %, with 3,693 yards & 21 TD's & 11 INT's and an 89.4 QB rating.

Obviously Green didn’t have as much talent in DC as Cassel had in NE, so this time you could make the argument that his rating would have been higher than Cassel’s was in NE.

Obviously those are a lot of stats to throw out there and this thread got a lot longer than I intended but if you look at the numbers, Cassel & Green have a LOT in common and if Cassel = Green 2.0, I'm fine with that. Get him a running game and a line and I'll be happy.

[DeezNutz]

Get him a running game, a line, and a starting QB to sit behind and he'll be.

FYP

(though I appreciate the effort that went into the OP)

[KurtCobain]

I believe.

[BigMeatballDave]

:popcorn: This should be fun...

[The Franchise]

Trent Green and Matt Cassel are a lot alike....because they're white.

/THREAD

[Micjones]

I'm not ready yet to give up on Cassel, but he has to start hitting open WR's and getting rid of the ball quicker. I think he's been pressing as of late without Bowe in the lineup. Trying to "create" a big play.

I don't so much mind the interceptions, but the poor decision-making needs to improve.

Get him a solid Offensive Line... some real talent at the skill positions... and we can really see what he has.

[DeezNutz]

How can we make any judgements without an o-line?

Dude was getting knocked silly yesterday. And there were so many perfect passes dropped that it's not even funny.

[DJ's left nut]

I'm sorry, but I'm presently fighting off this whole "Cassel is a viable starting QB in the NFL" plague in about 13 different threads, I'm gonna have to let someone else take point in this one.

[Hammock Parties]

yay stats

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm126/thew_902/KenPark-Suicide.gif

[BigMeatballDave]

I'm not ready yet to give up on Cassel, but he has to start hitting open WR's and getting rid of the ball quicker. I think he's been pressing as of late without Bowe in the lineup. Trying to "create" a big play.

I don't so much mind the interceptions, but the poor decision-making needs to improve.

Get him a solid Offensive Line... some real talent at the skill positions... and we can really see what he has.I agree with all this, but it doesn't explain his inaccuracy.

[KCbroncoHATER]

Trent was the best passing qb we have ever had in kc.

Steve DeBerg was the sneakiest.

[DeezNutz]

I'm sorry, but I'm presently fighting off this whole "Cassel is a viable starting QB in the NFL" plague in about 13 different threads, I'm gonna have to let someone else take point in this one.

And never, ever feed them after midnight.

[DeezNutz]

I agree with all this, but it doesn't explain his inaccuracy.

You know what might? Having the ceiling of an NFL backup.

[Hammock Parties]

Cassel is WORSE than Green with BETTER receivers.

Cassel is NOT showing progress at the end of the season as Green DID.

Cassel does NOT have a gimpy knee as Green did ALL YEAR.

Green had far more excuses for his shitty performance. Green also had a MUCH more accomplished history as a starting quarterback in the NFL. He certainly never played with Randy Moss.

STOP comparing Cassel to Trent Green, because Green NEVER had 14.6 quarterback rating. EVER.

[LaChapelle]

I wanta have hope
vs
I have all the answers Threads

[BigMeatballDave]

Cassel is WORSE than Green with BETTER receivers.

Green didn't have TG and Holmes to throw to?

[Hammock Parties]

Green didn't have TG and Holmes to throw to?

I'm talking about wide receivers.

Green's suckage that year was in large part due to scabs like Snoop Minnis, DA and Chris Thomas.

[BigMeatballDave]

STOP comparing Cassel to Trent Green, because Green NEVER had 14.6 quarterback rating. EVER.Green was also never on a team that was so completely void of talent.

[BigMeatballDave]

I'm talking about wide receivers.

Green's suckage that year was in large part due to scabs like Snoop Minnis, DA and Chris Thomas. WR was never a huge part of that O. Its was always Priest and TG.

[BigMeatballDave]

Now, before you say anymore, I know Kennison has some damn good season here, but that was due to TG and Priest.

[Hammock Parties]

WR was never a huge part of that O. Its was always Priest and TG.

That year they tried to fit a square peg into a round hole and run it through the wide receivers....DV didn't learn until year two.

[Coach]

Green was also never on a team that was so completely void of talent.

Talent or not, Matt Cassel has shown in his career is that he's mediocre with a great supporting cast. Trent Green led the league in QB efficiency when Warner went down in St. Louis.

Also, Trent Green NEVER completed less than 40% of his passes OR threw for under 100 yards when he was in KC. Green's lowest yardage output was against the Bengals in 06 and he only played half of the game. In spite of that he still threw for more yards (90) than Cassel did for 3 quarters on Sunday (84).

[Red Dawg]

Cassel is WORSE than Green with BETTER receivers.

Cassel is NOT showing progress at the end of the season as Green DID.

Cassel does NOT have a gimpy knee as Green did ALL YEAR.

Green had far more excuses for his shitty performance. Green also had a MUCH more accomplished history as a starting quarterback in the NFL. He certainly never played with Randy Moss.

STOP comparing Cassel to Trent Green, because Green NEVER had 14.6 quarterback rating. EVER.

Did you read the thread? 1500 yard back, TG and an O-line. Big advantage for Green

[memyselfI]

Great thread. :clap:

Cassel will be fine when he gets some help.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Cassel fucking sucks, end of story, I want to nail him to the fucking cross.

[BigMeatballDave]

Cassel ****ing sucks, end of story, I want to nail him to the ****ing cross.Actually, I don't have anything against Cassell. I'm not thrilled about his play. But I'll never blame him. If he doesn't improve, you have to wonder how long Haley/Pioli will stay with him.

[Ralphy Boy]

I agree with all this, but it doesn't explain his inaccuracy.

I guess some people have selective memories. I'm a huge Green fan, always was, but do you not recall how Trent was very inaccurate on his throws to a WR his first year? Dumping the ball off to a RB like Priest does wonders for your completion %.

Aside from the obvious fact that Green had a 56.6% completion % for the entire season, when 62 of his 296 completions were caught by Priest.

I really wish I could see how many passes Green threw to Priest because those are such high completion % passes.

Our wide receivers in 2001 were as follows:
Snoop Minnis 33 catches, 511 yards
Derrick Alexander 27 catches, 470 yards
Chris Thomas 19 catches, 247 yards
Eddie Kennison 16 catches, 322 yards
Larry Parker 15 catches, 199 yards
Total = 110 catches, 1,749 yards
Good for 15.9 yards per catch with 5 WR's.

Our wide receivers in 2009 are as follows:
Dwayne Bowe 33 catches, 466 yards
Bobby Wade 29 catches, 299 yards
Chris Chambers 19 catches, 330 yards
Mark Bradley 18 catches, 233 yards
Lance Long 18 catches, 184 yards
Bobby Engram 5 catches, 61 yards
Terrance Copper 2 catches, 11 yards
Quinten Lawrence 1 catch, 9 yards
Total = 125 catches, 1,593 yards
Good for 12.7 yards per catch with 8 WR's.

Our 4 RB/FB's caught 94 balls in 2001 or 5.875 per game.
Our 8 RB/FB's have caught 58 balls this year or 4.83 per game. Obviously 1 more doesn't sound like a big difference, but its huge considering the fact that there have been twice as many players catching those passes and twice as many players trying to learn the offense.

Green had 12 players, between the RB/FB (4), TE (3) & WR (5) positions, to work with all season.
Cassel has had 19 players, between the RB/FB (8), TE (3) & WR (8) to work with.
That is 7 more players and a whole lot more complicated on what is obviously a worse team.

[RippedmyFlesh]

Trent was the best passing qb we have ever had in kc.

Steve DeBerg was the sneakiest.
I would have to disagree
http://www.athlonsports.com/store/images/ldawsonhof16x20.jpg

[KCrockaholic]

Trent was the best passing qb we have ever had in kc.

Steve DeBerg was the sneakiest.

Len Dawson was by far the best QB KC has ever had. I love Trent, but he was nothing compared to Dawson.

[KCrockaholic]

I would have to disagree
http://www.athlonsports.com/store/images/ldawsonhof16x20.jpg

Thank you :)

[TheGuardian]

I didn't read all of this, but Trent Green was still rehabbing his torn up knee his first year as a starter in KC and could never set properly in his drop and/or throws. And he had Snoop Minnis and some other scrub as the starting wide outs at the time. After Trent's knee got back to 100% (the following season) he was playing at a pro bowl level.

/thread

[BigMeatballDave]

I didn't read all of this, but Trent Green was still rehabbing his torn up knee his first year as a starter in KC and could never set properly in his drop and/or throws. And he had Snoop Minnis and some other scrub as the starting wide outs at the time. After Trent's knee got back to 100% (the following season) he was playing at a pro bowl level.

/threadThat following season he also had Roaf protecting his backside.

[TheGuardian]

That following season he also had Roaf protecting his backside.

This is true, however Cassel had good protection yesterday and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He just doesn't have very good accuracy. People can blame the line all day but Aaron Rogers has been getting his nuts kicked in this year and uh, he's doing alright.

[Ralphy Boy]

Cassel is WORSE than Green with BETTER receivers.
You're not taking Priest or Tony into account. They combined to catch 135 passes for 1531 yards.

Cassel is NOT showing progress at the end of the season as Green DID.
You are right about this though you could argue that Bowe's absence has something to do with it because Green never lost his best receiver/player during his first season. Green's worst game in 2001 was week 9 when he had a 35.5 QB rating, his high after the bye was week 14 with a 114.8 followed by a low of 60.7 in week 17.
He had QB ratings in order of 60.9, 54.0, 154.3, 44.1, 45.9, 63.8, 70.3, 53.1, 35.5, bye week, 94.4, 75.1, 81.9, 114.8, 71.0, 94.2 & 60.7.
Before the week 10 bye, Green threw 9 TD's & 16 INT's. After the bye he threw 8 TD's & 8 INT's. You got me there, his INT to TD ratio went from 1.7:1 to 1:1.

Cassel does NOT have a gimpy knee as Green did ALL YEAR.
Trent injured his knee in 1999, played in 2000 just fine with that gimpy knee. Cassel sprained his MCL before the season started and missed the opener. Do you know for sure its not bothering him?

Green had far more excuses for his shitty performance. You have to be kidding me, Trent had far more excuses?????? Do Tony Gonzalez & Priest Holmes equate to excuses???Green also had a MUCH more accomplished history as a starting quarterback in the NFL. Saying Trent was "MUCH more accomplished" is funny. He played in 24 games before coming to KC and arrived here with a 56% completion %, 39 TD's and 22 INT's for his career. He finished his first season with KC with a 56.6% completion %. Cassel arrived with a 62.9% completion % and 23 TD & 13 INT's for his career.This is hardly what I would consider "MUCH more accomplished"
He certainly never played with Randy Moss. Torry Holt had 82 catches for 1,635 yards in 2000. Compared to Moss' 69 for 1,008. Combined Holt & Bruce had 3,106 yards receiving. Welker & Moss had 2,173 combined. The top 3 receivers for the Rams had 250 catches for 3,936 yards. The top 3 for NE had 238 catches for 2,659 yards. That is 1,277 more receiving yards.

STOP comparing Cassel to Trent Green, because Green NEVER had 14.6 quarterback rating. EVER. No, but again see the 35.5 QB rating in 2001 when we lost to Herm's Jets and Trent threw 3 picks


Look, I'm not bashing Trent. I was his biggest fan, but to not take the ridiculous coaching and revolving door we have at the RB, TE, WR position into account is foolish even for you.

[KCbroncoHATER]

I think I said "passing" qb.

Thanks!

[KCbroncoHATER]

He was better than Bill Kenney

[Hammock Parties]

This offense isn't even near as complicated as the one Green was running, either.

Half the time Cassel misses a guy the dude is wide open and standing still or something, or running a simple route that doesn't require much timing, just innate accuracy and an ability to lead a receiver.

Green was throwing to guys before they even made their break...that's why there were so many problems.

Cassel is garbage. We don't even know if he can read a defense properly at this point. Green at least had that down.

[Mojo Jojo]

Listening to Bill Maas this afternoon...talking about Cassel Bill said I've seen this guy before in fact I played with this same guy...his name was Todd Blackledge. I laughed...almost spit soda out my nose.

[DeezNutz]

Listening to Bill Maas this afternoon...talking about Cassel Bill said I've seen this guy before in fact I played with this same guy...his name was Todd Blackledge. I laughed...almost spit soda out my nose.

What was his rationale?

[Mojo Jojo]

What was his rationale?

He just said watching Cassel reminds him of watching Todd back in the day. Their reactions to situations, the panic, a look of being lost. Todd had no running game a poor offensive line and average receivers...sound familiar?

[Mecca]

Cassel just isn't accurate and has no awareness of the pocket at all. Even when he has a clean pocket for an entire day he can't help but move around.

All of the issues he had before that had been pointed out months ago are all proving to be true.

[jidar]

You're gonna compare Cassel and Green? You keep this shit up and I will burn this motherfucker down.
BURN IT DOWN

[KCbroncoHATER]

Could you tell if Bill Maas was high on coke, weed or booze at the time?

He has lost all his cred.

[Ralphy Boy]

Talent or not, Matt Cassel has shown in his career is that he's mediocre with a great supporting cast. Trent Green led the league in QB efficiency when Warner went down in St. Louis.

Also, Trent Green NEVER completed less than 40% of his passes OR threw for under 100 yards when he was in KC. Green's lowest yardage output was against the Bengals in 06 and he only played half of the game. In spite of that he still threw for more yards (90) than Cassel did for 3 quarters on Sunday (84).

Okay, assuming Trent is the benchmark:
Trent completed less than 50% of his passes in 5 games in 2001.
Matt has completed less than 50% of his passes in 3 games so far.

Yes Matt had a lower QB rating & completion % last week than Green did in any game in 2001.
Matt's lowest was 34.5% completion % with a 14.6 rating.
Green's lowest was 43.2% and a 35.5 rating.

Green completed 80.8% of his passes in one game & 81% in another.
Cassel completed 77.8% of his passes in one game.

Green completed less than 55% of his passes in 9 games.
Cassel has completed less than 55% of his passes in 6 games.

Green had 2 games with a QB rating over 100 in 2001
Cassel has 2 games with a QB rating over 100 this year.
Green's best games that year were following losses. He had a 54.0 QB rating in week 2 followed by a 154.3 in week 2. He had a 46.9% completion % in week 13 followed by a 81% in week 14.
Cassel's best games this year 124.5 QB rating in week 3 following a 66.3 in week 2. He then had a 62.9 in week 10 followed by a 100.4 in week 11.

Lets not all forget that Cassel completed 61.3% of his passes against San Diego last week and it was just two weeks ago when he had the 100.4 rating.

[Mecca]

You can pull up all the stats you want, all you have to do is watch them. Green was a prototypical pocket passer, good footwork, good accuracy, went through his progressions properly etc etc.

Cassel basically is none of that, hell even when the pocket is fine he starts moving around and he is wildly inaccurate.

[milkman]

I guess some people have selective memories. I'm a huge Green fan, always was, but do you not recall how Trent was very inaccurate on his throws to a WR his first year? Dumping the ball off to a RB like Priest does wonders for your completion %.

Aside from the obvious fact that Green had a 56.6% completion % for the entire season, when 62 of his 296 completions were caught by Priest.

I really wish I could see how many passes Green threw to Priest because those are such high completion % passes.

Our wide receivers in 2001 were as follows:
Snoop Minnis 33 catches, 511 yards
Derrick Alexander 27 catches, 470 yards
Chris Thomas 19 catches, 247 yards
Eddie Kennison 16 catches, 322 yards
Larry Parker 15 catches, 199 yards
Total = 110 catches, 1,749 yards
Good for 15.9 yards per catch with 5 WR's.

Our wide receivers in 2009 are as follows:
Dwayne Bowe 33 catches, 466 yards
Bobby Wade 29 catches, 299 yards
Chris Chambers 19 catches, 330 yards
Mark Bradley 18 catches, 233 yards
Lance Long 18 catches, 184 yards
Bobby Engram 5 catches, 61 yards
Terrance Copper 2 catches, 11 yards
Quinten Lawrence 1 catch, 9 yards
Total = 125 catches, 1,593 yards
Good for 12.7 yards per catch with 8 WR's.

Our 4 RB/FB's caught 94 balls in 2001 or 5.875 per game.
Our 8 RB/FB's have caught 58 balls this year or 4.83 per game. Obviously 1 more doesn't sound like a big difference, but its huge considering the fact that there have been twice as many players catching those passes and twice as many players trying to learn the offense.

Green had 12 players, between the RB/FB (4), TE (3) & WR (5) positions, to work with all season.
Cassel has had 19 players, between the RB/FB (8), TE (3) & WR (8) to work with.
That is 7 more players and a whole lot more complicated on what is obviously a worse team.

What you are failing to recognize is that Cassel can't even fucking dump the ball off to RBs in the flat accurately.

[Mecca]

Watch the game that's on now, watch Rodgers he's under constant pressure and still look at how he stays in the pocket and makes accurate throws.

Frankly we have a QB that can't make NFL throws.

[milkman]

I think I said "passing" qb.

Thanks!

Different eras.

Dawson played in an era when DBs could mug receivers all over the field until the ball was in the air, when O-Lineman were not allowed ot use their hands to block, D-Lineman were allowed to head slap, QBs were not allowed to throw the ball away if they were out of the pocket.

Dawson never attempted more than 357 passes in a full season as a Chief.
Green never attempted fewer 470 passes in a full season as a Chief.

At the time that Dawson retired, he was among the all time leaders in completion percentage, and the all time leader in Passer rating.

Given the different rules and the way the game evolved to give QBs far more advantages, I'd say that you are, as usual, wrong again.

[bowener]

yay stats

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm126/thew_902/KenPark-Suicide.gif

Good god, what is this from?

[Ralphy Boy]

Look, the fact is that Trent was more of a leader than Cassel. There is no disputing that and he did have a better feel for the game. I'm not saying paying Cassel a truckload of money was a good idea. King Carl didn't give Trent a new contract before he played a down in a Chiefs uni. Pioli shouldn't have.
Trent also had a lot better coaching, not to mention more playing experience since he actually started in college and more talent around him. If anyone cares to argue that Cassel is playing with more talent now, or did last year, thats disputable.

Bash Haley all you want, you'll get no argument from me.

He completed 40% of his passes in the first game at home against San Diego and 61.3% against them, in their house, a month later.
Week 7, he was 10 of 25 for 97 yards with 1 TD & 3 INT's and a 25.3 QB rating.
Week 12, he was 19 of 31 for 178 yards with 1 TD & 1 INT and a 74.4 QB rating.

When he's bad, he's awful. I'd like to think he'll show some progress against Denver in our final game like he did against San Diego & Oakland.

Green got sacked 39 times in 2001
Cassel has been sacked 37 times in 2009.
Green got much better when Willie Roaf was added to the line. Green had more talent around him in 2001 than Cassel has had in 2009. We had 3 Pro-Bowlers on offense in 2001; Priest, Gonzo & Shields.
Do you think we'll have any this year?

[RedThat]

You can pull up all the stats you want, all you have to do is watch them. Green was a prototypical pocket passer, good footwork, good accuracy, went through his progressions properly etc etc.

Cassel basically is none of that, hell even when the pocket is fine he starts moving around and he is wildly inaccurate.

Those are some good points Mecca. In my opinion, he could use a good quarterbacks coach. In fact, I think he needs one. Thats the only solution I could possibly think of for him to develop and possibly become a good quarterback, and I know thats sad since the Chiefs are paying him 63 mil. Quite frankly at this point all they could do is rectify their mistakes.

[Ralphy Boy]

What you are failing to recognize is that Cassel can't even ****ing dump the ball off to RBs in the flat accurately.

What you are failing to realize is that not having Priest, TRich & Gonzo to throw to is HUGE.

[bowener]

You can pull up all the stats you want, all you have to do is watch them. Green was a prototypical pocket passer, good footwork, good accuracy, went through his progressions properly etc etc.

Cassel basically is none of that, hell even when the pocket is fine he starts moving around and he is wildly inaccurate.

Would you say this is the dreaded David Carr disease?

We can at least rule out that this is not Jamarcus Russel syndrome.

[DeezNutz]

What you are failing to realize is that not having Priest, TRich & Gonzo to throw to is HUGE.

Admittedly, I have never seen anyone argue that our current personnel would be causing Cassel to be inaccurate in the flats.

[ChiefsCountry]

I love how people are throwing out that Green started in Washington before going to St. Louis. Also Bowe & Chambers are more talented than any receivers that Green had during his time here.

[BossChief]

Trent threw for 3800 yards
Cassel is on pace for 2700

Trent had heart and would take a monster shot while trying to make a big play for us, Cassel holds the ball and fetals it up and is MUCH closer to Huard that Trent. So far anyway.

MUCH CLOSER!

[BigChiefFan]

I love how people are throwing out that Green started in Washington before going to St. Louis. Also Bowe & Chambers are more talented than any receivers that Green had during his time here.Again, they've played in TWO GAMES TOTAL TOGETHER. TWO.

[O.city]

I actually think the best QB on the roster is probably.....wait for it....Brodie Croyle...If he is actually givin the reins to Haley's offense of pressing the ball down the field with Chambers and Bowe when he returns , everyone knows he can sling it and he is accurate....he was just always in Herm's make no mistakes offense. He has as good an arm as anyone in the NFL

[ChiefsCountry]

I actually think the best QB on the roster is probably.....wait for it....Brodie Croyle...If he is actually givin the reins to Haley's offense of pressing the ball down the field with Chambers and Bowe when he returns , everyone knows he can sling it and he is accurate....he was just always in Herm's make no mistakes offense. He has as good an arm as anyone in the NFL

I loved Brodie at Bama, I wish him all the luck in the world but he is just too brittle.

[Bwana]

ROFL

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Cassell sucks and we need to move on . But Trent Green did have a much,much better O-Line which does make a world of difference. Cassel did win 11 games last year. Why ?

[O.city]

i dunno if he is too brittle.....maybe it was just bad luck...i dunno if he will ever get the chance to actually play because of Cassel but he has had injury problems so who knows.......He does throw the ball so well however, it is just so fluid and it comes out so well. i think he actually could be Aaron Rodgers type of player. he looks good in the pocket and is pretty smart.......plus his wife is SMOKIN HOTT.

[notorious]

Cassell sucks and we need to move on . But Trent Green did have a much,much better O-Line which does make a world of difference. Cassel did win 11 games last year. Why ?

It gets better, he won 11 games with the same team that is imploding this year, minus a few defensive players.


WTF?!

[ChiefsCountry]

i dunno if he is too brittle.....maybe it was just bad luck...i dunno if he will ever get the chance to actually play because of Cassel but he has had injury problems so who knows.......He does throw the ball so well however, it is just so fluid and it comes out so well. i think he actually could be Aaron Rodgers type of player. he looks good in the pocket and is pretty smart.......plus his wife is SMOKIN HOTT.

Brodie has been injury prone since high school and he was in college. Wish he wasn't bc he could be a hell of a QB.

And yes I would love to nail Kellie.

[O.city]

Yeah def. but I would be one to give him another chance.....arms like his aren't a dime a dozen....I mean as a chief have you ever seen him get comfortable in the pocket and start slinging it around like you know he can?

Could you imagine if he could get in a game get in rhythm in Haley's system with his arm...

If he could stay healthy that is like you said.

[O.city]

I actualy played quite a bit of qb and have watched alot of different ones and i just don't think Cassel's motion is right and the ball doesn't explode off his fingers like it does with the Brady's and Brees.

Brodie's ball does

[Ralphy Boy]

Admittedly, I have never seen anyone argue that our current personnel would be causing Cassel to be inaccurate in the flats.

I'm not saying he isn't throwing the passes to them, missing them or whatever. I don't know how many of them he's missed. That should be a high completion % pass.

He's completing 4.8 passes a game to them, so a fair amount of them are completed, just not as many as the 6.4 per game that Green was getting. That's 1.5 more completions per game to an easy outlet.

NE had 81 passes for 743 yards to RB/FB's last year, an average of 46 yards a game.
Green threw 103 passes to the RB/FB position that season for 1,389 yards, 86.8 yards per game.
Brady threw 62 to the RB/FB position in 2007 for 583 yards, 36.4 yards per game.
Cassel has 58 for 499 yards, 41.5 yards per game.
Obviously this style of offense doesn't dump off to the RB/FB position as much.

The differing types of offense, and ability of our old O-line to block for those types of passes, affects any comparison to the way Cassel compares to Green in 2001.

Its only an average of 1 less pass each game, but its 45.3 less yards each game.

A lot of the difference is that our O-line was capable of pulling and getting into the flats to block and that the defense was usually so pre-occupied with Gonzo that they weren't playing as close to the line.

The QB rating is affected by the total number of passing yards, so those short little dump offs that go for big yardage, because our old O-line knew how to block downfield, affect the total and play a large part in any comparison between Green & Cassel.

[jidar]

Yeah def. but I would be one to give him another chance.....arms like his aren't a dime a dozen....I mean as a chief have you ever seen him get comfortable in the pocket and start slinging it around like you know he can?

Could you imagine if he could get in a game get in rhythm in Haley's system with his arm...

If he could stay healthy that is like you said.

edit: oh wait.. you said stay healthy. You must be talking about Croyle.
nevermind

[Ralphy Boy]

I love how people are throwing out that Green started in Washington before going to St. Louis. Also Bowe & Chambers are more talented than any receivers that Green had during his time here.

It's very relevant that Green started in Washington, not sure I follow you.

Bowe has all the talent in the world but hasn't played since the win over Oakland. Without him, Cassel still had a 100 QB rating over Pitt & a 61.3 % completion % against San Diego.

Trent had Gonzo & Priest, two Pro Bowlers, in 2001. Priest being a Pro Bowler had a lot less to do with Trent than it did his own ability to create something out of nothing. Chambers hasn't made a Pro Bowl since???
Gonzo & Priest made Trent better.

[Hammock Parties]

Listening to Bill Maas this afternoon...talking about Cassel Bill said I've seen this guy before in fact I played with this same guy...his name was Todd Blackledge. I laughed...almost spit soda out my nose.

That's the smartest thing Maas has ever said.

The Grbac comparison he made was horrible.

Cassel wishes he was Grbac.

[DBOSHO]

Brodie was born with abnormally sharp bones near his knees. Thats why hes always had knee trouble.

[Ralphy Boy]

Trent threw for 3800 yards
Cassel is on pace for 2700

Trent had heart and would take a monster shot while trying to make a big play for us, Cassel holds the ball and fetals it up and is MUCH closer to Huard that Trent. So far anyway.

MUCH CLOSER!

2001
Gonzo = 917 yards
Priest = 614 yards
That's 1,531 yards receiving between two PRO BOWLERS. Take them away and he's a lot more like Cassel than you'd care to admit. Cassel doesn't have anyone NEAR as good as those two.

Not that it matters, but Cassel was also in one less game this year.

Someone mentioned Green's 2000 QB rating of 101.8, but he got it while only throwing for 2,063 yards. Still impressive, but Warner was right behind him with a 98.3 rating, which was more impressive considering he threw for 3,429 yards. Warner's completion % was 67.7% while Green was 60.4%.

[Ralphy Boy]

I'm talking about wide receivers.

Green's suckage that year was in large part due to scabs like Snoop Minnis, DA and Chris Thomas.


Derrick Alexander was a 1,300 yard receiver in KC in 2000. From 1996 to 2000, he had 5,323 receiving yards & 34 TD's. That's an average of 1,064 yards & 6.8 TD's per season. He wasn't a fit in this offense but did have 3 games with 70+ yards in 2001.
That, you might say, isn't the point, but my point is he accomplished more the prior season than anyone on our roster did last season including Bowe and was a more accomplished receiver on our opening day roster than anyone we had this year on our opening roster.

Bowe in 2008 86 catches, 1,022 yards & 7 TD's.
DA in 2000 78 catches, 1,391 yards & 10 TD's.

Not saying he had half of Bowe's talent, but was a more accomplished (and I use that term loosely) receiver. Point is; our roster wasn’t completely void of talent and the players didn’t all fit the system but they had more time to work together than Cassel has had with anyone other than Bowe. What receiver, other than Bowe, had a full camp to establish a rapport with Cassel?

Only Mark Bradley.
Wade was signed on 9/14, Chambers 11/9, Pope 9/29, Long added to the practice squad on 9/16 and added to the roster on 10/24.

The only receiver Green had to get familiar with after the season started was Kennison and it was after we added Kennison that Green finally showed an ability to connect with a WR.

Interesting:
Green was sacked a league-leading 49 times in 1998, for a league-leading 338 yards lost. His first season in KC in 2001 Green was sacked 39 times for 198 yards and led the league in INT’s.
Cassel was sacked a league-leading 47 times in 2008 for 219 yards lost. His first season in KC Cassel has been sacked 37 times for 212 yards.

Trent was 28 years old before the 1998 season in DC. Cassel is 27 now. Green was 31 when he got here. Did he have more experience, yes. He also had a QB coach, a OC and a head coach with some patience. He didn't have musical chairs going on at the WR, TE & RB position and a change in offense to start the season.

Cassel will do better when he gets Bowe back, gets a better O-line and an established running game.

I'm done.

[Hammock Parties]

Someone mentioned Green's 2000 QB rating of 101.8, but he got it while only throwing for 2,063 yards.

HE DIDN'T PLAY EVERY GAME YOU DUMB FUCK.

[Ralphy Boy]

HE DIDN'T PLAY EVERY GAME YOU DUMB ****.

No s#!t f@ckst@!n. That's precisely the point. One person brought up his QB rating and I'm saying it was a good rating, but not quite as meaningful when he only played in 8 games and started 5.

You really are an idiot.

[BossChief]

2001
Gonzo = 917 yards
Priest = 614 yards
That's 1,531 yards receiving between two PRO BOWLERS. Take them away and he's a lot more like Cassel than you'd care to admit. Cassel doesn't have anyone NEAR as good as those two.



but really, how much better are
derrick alexander
tony g
snoop minnis
larry parker
chris thomas
dante hall
priest holmes

over

chris chambers
dwayne bowe
lance long
sean ryan/cottam
jamaal charles
bobby wade
mark bradley

the lone trent had was better than this one, but he took 39 sacks that year iirc.

put that trent green on this team and all the games that werent blowouts are wins instead of mostly losses. all the games that were blowouts, would have been closer games.

I want to support Cassel, I love this team and want to see us reach the superbowl with him as the qb. I am just doubting that I will get to see that happen anytime soon. I hope to god Im wrong brotha.

who knows maybe Im off base, but I really dont think so.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Jesus Assraping Christ; this kind of bullshit thread is getting SO fucking old.

Chiefs Nation: would you even know what to think or feel if you had an elite young Quarterback suiting up for your team?

Just DIE with this fucking horseshit already!

[Galileo Humpkins]

I actually think the best QB on the roster is probably.....wait for it....Brodie Croyle.

Croyle's crumpled, flailing arm > Cassel's missile guided arm in 80° weather w/ Tebow praying for him on the sideline.

I would rather use the 60 mil on health insurance for Brodie Croyle's offspring.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Croyle's crumpled, flailing arm > Cassel's missile guided arm in 80° weather w/ Tebow praying for him on the sideline.

I would rather use the 60 mil on health insurance for Brodie Croyle's offspring.

Who's got the shit-arm of the two?

Okay, who's got the LESS shitty arm of the two? I think we're going to find out. Might as well give Brodie the reps with first squad this week since he'll end up behind the line in the 4th anyway.

[jidar]

Who's got the shit-arm of the two?

Okay, who's got the LESS shitty arm of the two? I think we're going to find out. Might as well give Brodie the reps with first squad this week since he'll end up behind the line in the 4th anyway.

Um... Brodie has a pretty good arm, and in his time here he's made some damned impressive throws... it's his accuracy, decision making and durability that are the problem.

[Hammock Parties]

Personally I think Croyle is plenty accurate, and more consistent with his accuracy than Cassel has been this year. Cassel will make a good throw on one snap and then leave you scratching your head on the next.

Croyle's only issue, to me, is staying healthy. He's less mobile than Cassel, but who gives a fuck when you can sling the rock with zip and accuracy?

This year Croyle proved he could take a hit. Cassel proved...he can disappoint us.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Um... Brodie has a pretty good arm, and in his time here he's made some damned impressive throws... it's his accuracy, decision making and durability that are the problem.

I'd LOVE to see him get a full week of reps and a whole game; we've got nothing to lose at this point.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Personally I think Croyle is plenty accurate, and more consistent with his accuracy than Cassel has been this year. Cassel will make a good throw on one snap and then leave you scratching your head on the next.

Croyle's only issue, to me, is staying healthy. He's less mobile than Cassel, but who gives a fuck when you can sling the rock with zip and accuracy?

This year Croyle proved he could take a hit. Cassel proved...he can disappoint us.

He took some quality pops from Baltimore. If it weren't for the clusterfuck at the end of that game, I think more people would be willing to give him another shot in light of how inconsistent Cassel has been.

[Hammock Parties]

He took some quality pops from Baltimore. If it weren't for the clusterfuck at the end of that game, I think more people would be willing to give him another shot in light of how inconsistent Cassel has been.

Not just Baltimore. Croyle got fucking ROCKED in preseason.

I don't blame him a bit for the clusterfuck at the end of the game. We just installed the offense two weeks prior.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Not just Baltimore. Croyle got fucking ROCKED in preseason.

I don't blame him a bit for the clusterfuck at the end of the game. We just installed the offense two weeks prior.

And there's that too.

[Dave Lane]

I agree with all this, but it doesn't explain his inaccuracy.

Dude then you have never played QB with a pass rush. Even in flag football if you only have 2-3 seconds to get a pass off there is no way to be accurate or make good choices. If you could give me 10 seconds to pass in the NFL hell I'd be a great QB.

[Dave Lane]

There is NO hope for Brokie being the future. Let Cassel sink or swim this season makes no difference if we win 3 or 5 games.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Dude then you have never played QB with a pass rush. Even in flag football if you only have 2-3 seconds to get a pass off there is no way to be accurate or make good choices. If you could give me 10 seconds to pass in the NFL hell I'd be a great QB.

Bring Dave Lane in for a look?

[NewChief]

but really, how much better are
derrick alexander
tony g
snoop minnis
larry parker
chris thomas
dante hall
priest holmes

over

chris chambers
dwayne bowe
lance long
sean ryan/cottam
jamaal charles
bobby wade
mark bradley

the lone trent had was better than this one, but he took 39 sacks that year iirc.

put that trent green on this team and all the games that werent blowouts are wins instead of mostly losses. all the games that were blowouts, would have been closer games.

I want to support Cassel, I love this team and want to see us reach the superbowl with him as the qb. I am just doubting that I will get to see that happen anytime soon. I hope to god Im wrong brotha.

who knows maybe Im off base, but I really dont think so.

On top of that, Trent's first year receiving corps was trying to pick up one of the most complicated offenses in professional football. Many, many, many of his picks that first year were the result of receivers running the wrong routes. Derrick Alexander had basically quit on the team at that point as well.

[Ralphy Boy]

but really, how much better are
derrick alexander,tony g, snoop minnis, larry parker, chris thomas,
dante hall, priest holmes

over

chris chambers, dwayne bowe, lance long, sean ryan/cottam, jamaal charles,
bobby wade, mark bradley

A LOT BETTER. Look, I'm not saying our WR's aren't better and this isn't intended to be a bash Trent but his supporting cast was a lot better. Try not to forget that Trents running game was an ass load better than Cassel's. For the first 7 games we had LJ and his 2.9 avg compared to Priest's 4.8.

And you are leaving out Kennison, who's arrival helped Green's completion % tremendously. Before Eddie arrived, Trents completion % on the season was 55.36%. AFTER Eddie it was 63.12%. His QB rating thru the first 11 games was 68.3 compared to the last 5 when it was 84.5.

Pre EK (11 games): Trents best game all season was Washington in week 3 when he had a 154.3 QB rating. After that game and before EK, his best rating was 94.4 in week 11. His highest QB rating in any other game, before EK, was 75.1 and he threw 10 TD's to 17 INT's. In five games he had a QB rating below 60. His completion % was 60 or better in 4 games.

With EK (5 games): He topped an 80.0 QB rating 3 times and his worst QB rating was the last game with a 60.7. He threw for 7 TD's to 7 INT's, obviously improving his TD/INT ratio considerably. Yards per attempt went up from a 6.92 average to 8.61. His completion % was 60 or better in 3 games.

Now compare that to Cassel with and without Bowe and you can probably better appreciate his position.
With Bowe, his avg completion % is 56.1, 10 TD's & 6 INT's and a 76.8 QB rating.
Without Bowe, avg completion % is 48.6, 3 TD's & 3 INT's and a 63.1 QB rating.
Cassel has had 4 games with a QB rating over 90 and 7 over 70. Trent played in 5 more games and also had 4 games with a QB rating over 90 and 8 games over 70.

With all of that said, Cassel has topped the 60% completion % number only 3 times in 11 games. Green topped it 7 in 16, but 3 of those came with EK's arrival.

Two sides of the same coin: Cassel's INT's aren't high because he's not taking enough chances // Cassel isn't losing games for us by tossing costly INT's.

[CHIEFS58]

goddamn, people, its not even been a full season. GIVE THEM SOME TIME TO FIX HERM AND CARLS FUCKUPS. its not going to magically change overnight. its like theres a bunch of 8 year old girls in here whining about getting a pony. FUCK.

[milkman]

What you are failing to realize is that not having Priest, TRich & Gonzo to throw to is HUGE.

I understand that the cast was better, but again, how would Priest or Tony have helped Cassel out if he can't get the ball to them accurately.

If you are missing RBs in the flat, 5 to 10 yards away from where you're standing, misssing them badly, I don't care who they are, they aren't going to help you dumb ass put up decent numbers if you can't get the ball into the same fucking zip code.