Other Sports Top 10 Boxing Heavyweights of All Time [Archive]

Dayze

12-14-2009, 11:33 AM

RaiderH8r

12-14-2009, 11:42 AM

Ali would have ****ing murdered Marciano.

Ali would have gotten wore the f out by Marciano. Marciano hit like a ton of bricks and had the endurance to keep going through Ali's rope a dope. Marciano would have had Ali crapping a liver by the 8th round.

RaiderH8r

12-14-2009, 11:44 AM

I love these debates; (not being sarcastic etc). because, really...thre isn't a 'wrong' answer.
I wish Lennox Lewis would be included, however. I remember a stat saying he's beaten everyone he's ever faced (sure, some required a rematch). Not sure of how many title defenses though.

Lewis is probably my favorite 'modern' era heavy weight.

But overall.....Ali was just a perfect mix of speed, size, chin...watching him jab, and setting up other punches is great to watch.

Lewis was a boxer not a fighter. He was great it's just that heavyweight boxers don't have the legend to surroudn their exploits. Lewis' best fight was when he fought Vitali Klitschko and Klitschko was using Lewis up. Had it not been for the fact that Klitschko's eyelid was about fall off or be flung into the third row Lewis would have been stopped.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 12:00 PM

Ali would have gotten wore the f out by Marciano. Marciano hit like a ton of bricks and had the endurance to keep going through Ali's rope a dope. Marciano would have had Ali crapping a liver by the 8th round.

Um, no.

A 187 pound guy with no movement against a 6-3, 225 pound man who could float like a butterfly?

No contest.

Ali wins hands-down. Every time.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 12:03 PM

Love him or hate him, Tyson at 21 yrs old could have knocked a lot of those guys out in two rnds.

Wrong.

Tyson was a fabrication of Bill Cayton. He didn't even fight ANYONE under the age of 30 until Buster Douglass, who disposed of him. Tyson was never again the same.

Tyson didn't even fight the best fighters of the day: Michael Dokes, Lennox Lewis (not until MUCH later) or Riddick Bowe.

Bowe would have destroyed him with his size, strength and power.

Tyson is a fabrication.

BigVE

12-14-2009, 12:04 PM

Love him or hate him, Tyson at 21 yrs old could have knocked a lot of those guys out in two rnds.

Tyson at 21 had not fought anyone of real significance....yes he had the power to KO anyone of them but they could have KO'd him if they hit him also. I was a big Tyson fan back then but the reality is once he got into some fights with guys who were not scared and could actually take a punch Tyson didn't do as well.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 12:07 PM

There are a lot of heavyweights who would have killed Marciano.

And Lewis, FWIW, had a glass jaw. Rahman and McCall both KTFOd him.

BigVE

12-14-2009, 12:12 PM

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 12:27 PM

Um, no.

A 187 pound guy with no movement against a 6-3, 225 pound man who could float like a butterfly?

No contest.

Ali wins hands-down. Every time.
Ali was best all time not even a debate there but it's apples to oranges. Like trying to compare a 240lb lineman from the 50's to the 300lb athletes of the 90's. Like you said rocky was under 190 what heavy weight fights that light nowadays? I'm no boxing expert so someone who is could throw some names out there but I bet it's a short list.
I think Wilt ushered the freakish athlete with Ali right after him and a bit later jim brown. That combo size/speed/explosiveness that we take for granted on a 3rd round pick today that you just didn't see often back then.
I think Ali was ahead of his time.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 12:34 PM

Ali was best all time not even a debate there but it's apples to oranges. Like trying to compare a 240lb lineman from the 50's to the 300lb athletes of the 90's. Like you said rocky was under 190 what heavy weight fights that light nowadays? I'm no boxing expert so someone who is could throw some names out there but I bet it's a short list.
I think Wilt ushered the freakish athlete with Ali right after him and a bit later jim brown. That combo size/speed/explosiveness that we take for granted on a 3rd round pick today that you just didn't see often back then.
I think Ali was ahead of his time.

We're not talking about guys from the 50's versus guys from 2009: We're talking about the heavyweight champion of the world in the mid-1950's versus the heavyweight champion of the world less than a decade later.

While I respect Marciano's 49-0 record, he fought a ton of bums and over-the-hill fighters to reach that mark. That being said, it wasn't his fault that the best fighters of the day were in their 30's and 40's (Archie Moore, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, etc.). He didn't run from anyone, even though he defended his title a mere six times.

Ali would have destroyed Marciano. Marciano was tailor-made for a fighter like Ali. And Ali would have been even better had the US government not unlawfully strip him of his title and not allowed him to fight for more than 3 years during his prime.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 12:36 PM

Honestly, wouldn't you think Larry Holmes would be somewhere on this list? He was one win shy of the most title defenses every. He wasn't spectacular to watch but he was pretty darn good...KO'd guys with his jab.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5zlQqSCzRrA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5zlQqSCzRrA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Best boxing related video of all time.

TrickyNicky

12-14-2009, 12:38 PM

Lewis was a boxer not a fighter. He was great it's just that heavyweight boxers don't have the legend to surroudn their exploits. Lewis' best fight was when he fought Vitali Klitschko and Klitschko was using Lewis up. Had it not been for the fact that Klitschko's eyelid was about fall off or be flung into the third row Lewis would have been stopped.

One thing about that fight. Klitschko's cutman Joe Souza, wiped across the cut with a towel and made it bigger after it first happened. If you ever get a chance to watch it again, pay attention to right after he gets cut. I don't know if it would've mattered, but it surprised the hell out of me that the cutman did that.

BIG_DADDY

12-14-2009, 12:44 PM

Ali is the all time king of boxing.

BigVE

12-14-2009, 12:44 PM

Brock

12-14-2009, 12:45 PM

Lennox Lewis would have killed all those dudes.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 12:48 PM

Lennox Lewis would have killed all those dudes.

Only if he wanted to.

Lewis was one of the most talented heavyweights of all time. Unfortunately, he was one of the laziest heavyweights of all time.

There are NO excuses for losing to Rachman and JFC, Oliver McCall.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 12:51 PM

Larry was the biggest flying ninja of all time!

Holmes is EXTREMELY under-rated.

He fought EVERYONE and defended his title more than anyone since Joe Louis.

Don King held him back for three full years while Ali was in decline. Holmes actually knocked out Ali in sparring practice in 1975 at the age of 19.

As soon as Ali regained the the title from Leon Spinks (what a joke!), Holmes fought Norton for the title and won.

He most likely would have beaten Ali in 1975 or '76, if he'd been given the chance.

BigVE

12-14-2009, 12:54 PM

Holmes is EXTREMELY under-rated.

He fought EVERYONE and defended his title more than anyone since Joe Louis.

Don King held him back for three full years while Ali was in decline. Holmes actually knocked out Ali in sparring practice in 1975 at the age of 19.

As soon as Ali regained the the title from Leon Spinks (what a joke!), Holmes fought Norton for the title and won.

He most likely would have beaten Ali in 1975 or '76, if he'd been given the chance.

Holmes was not well spoken, was very badly promoted and wasn't very exciting to watch but he won. A lot.

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 12:57 PM

We're not talking about guys from the 50's versus guys from 2009: We're talking about the heavyweight champion of the world in the mid-1950's versus the heavyweight champion of the world less than a decade later.

While I respect Marciano's 49-0 record, he fought a ton of bums and over-the-hill fighters to reach that mark. That being said, it wasn't his fault that the best fighters of the day were in their 30's and 40's (Archie Moore, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, etc.). He didn't run from anyone, even though he defended his title a mere six times.

Ali would have destroyed Marciano. Marciano was tailor-made for a fighter like Ali. And Ali would have been even better had the US government not unlawfully strip him of his title and not allowed him to fight for more than 3 years during his prime.

Those ali/frazier ali/foreman ali/norton fights back then were like superbowls from a hype excitement standpoint.
Read a story about when wilt considered fighting ali.
They were in a room to negotiate and ali looks at wilt and just says "timberrrr"
Fight was pretty much off at that point.:D

Chiefnj2

12-14-2009, 12:59 PM

Holmes deserves to be on the list with 20 title defenses.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 01:04 PM

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 01:12 PM

In some ways, I think a list of the best middleweights of all time would be a better debate.

Robinson
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
Roy Jones Jr.
Hopkins

The second tier of guys, like Duran, LaMotta, Graziano is excellent as well.

Leonard Hearns Hagler Duran was another great era of fights also.How many of them on your list fought at the same time shows what a great period that was.

Dayze

12-14-2009, 01:12 PM

every time I see Holmes, I'm reiminded of an Eddie Murphy bit where he acts as if he's Larry Holmes acting in a soup commercial.

"...I like th-oup"

Dayze

12-14-2009, 01:13 PM

I remember watching HBO fights with my dad (before the abortion that is PPV); Hagler Hearns is one of my favorite fights.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 01:15 PM

every time I see Holmes, I'm reiminded of an Eddie Murphy bit where he acts as if he's Larry Holmes acting in a soup commercial.

"...I like th-oup"

Larry was born with a speech impediment. He's an extremely smart guy and a very successful businessman. He owns half of freakin' Pennsylvania!

It's too bad that people made fun of him because of that.

alanm

12-14-2009, 01:18 PM

Teofilo Stevenson would of beat them all. Ali said he was glad he was a cuban and not allowed to turn Pro because he said he probably wouldn't have been able to beat him.

Dayze

12-14-2009, 01:30 PM

Larry was born with a speech impediment. He's an extremely smart guy and a very successful businessman. He owns half of freakin' Pennsylvania!

It's too bad that people made fun of him because of that.

hmm. didn't know that. Interesting.

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 01:34 PM

I remember watching HBO fights with my dad (before the abortion that is PPV); Hagler Hearns is one of my favorite fights.
Back in the day a friend of mine had a "special" cable box that allowed him to see PPV events.
One night we are all gathered to watch and the screen goes black and in white letters a message says

You are not authorized to view this event

Dead silence for a moment then a late arrival bangs on the door and makes us all jump.I told my friend it's the PPV police and they were going to bust his ass and take the tv.

After about 10 seconds the message goes away and the prelims start and we watch the fight.they had the technology to send the message but not block it. :evil:While we were watching the fight my friend turns to me and says "ill bet there are some dumbasses out there who thought "o well" and turned the station after that message.

RaiderH8r

12-14-2009, 01:37 PM

I remember watching HBO fights with my dad (before the abortion that is PPV); Hagler Hearns is one of my favorite fights.

Arguably the best 9 ish minutes of boxing in history.

BigVE

12-14-2009, 01:37 PM

Back in the day a friend of mine had a "special" cable box that allowed him to see PPV events.
One night we are all gathered to watch and the screen goes black and in white letters a message says

You are not authorized to view this event

Dead silence for a moment then a late arrival bangs on the door and makes us all jump.I told my friend it's the PPV police and they were going to bust his ass and take the tv.

After about 10 seconds the message goes away and the prelims start and we watch the fight.they had the technology to send the message but not block it. :evil:While we were watching the fight my friend turns to me and says "ill bet there are some dumbasses out there who thought "o well" and turned the station after that message.

Heck, I can remember "watching" the scrambled HBO feed...it was a treat just to be able to listen to the fights.

Micjones

12-14-2009, 01:37 PM

Can someone post the actual list?
I'm blocked here at work.
Thanks.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 01:38 PM

Teofilo Stevenson would of beat them all. Ali said he was glad he was a cuban and not allowed to turn Pro because he said he probably wouldn't have been able to beat him.

Ali was being polite.

While Stevenson was an amazing Olympic fighter, there's absolutely no way to confirm that he would have been just as accomplished in the professional ranks, especially considering the fights were five times as long as the time (15 rounds vs. 3).

Stevenson was a great amateur but often times, that doesn't translate to a successful pro career.

SDChiefs

12-14-2009, 01:39 PM

RaiderH8r

12-14-2009, 01:42 PM

Dayze

12-14-2009, 01:44 PM

How do you say that a guy that lost as many fights as Clay/Ali is better then Marciano whom never lost a fight. They even did a computer simulation to see who would have one and Marciano K0d Ali. He couldn't be hurt.

It’s something that can/will be argued until the end of time. Different eras, styles, etc….there’s no 1 statistic that means one person is the best ever.

I always look at the NFL rushing title; Emmit Smith owns it. Is he the best ever? Not even close in my opinion….no.
His stats say he was the best ever, but I disagree. Same thing with boxing (and most other sports) I suppose.

RaiderH8r

12-14-2009, 01:44 PM

How do you say that a guy that lost as many fights as Clay/Ali is better then Marciano whom never lost a fight. They even did a computer simulation to see who would have one and Marciano K0d Ali. He couldn't be hurt.

Marciano was a f'ing meat grinder. He had the endurance to chase a guy all over the ring and the power to absolutely brutalize the body and head when he finally got a hold of his opponent. He was tougher than rawhide, ate rocks and crapped gunpowder.

Somebody mentioned freaks of sport, the Hitman, Tommy Hearns was a freak for his weight class. Absolutely amazing stuff in those years.

FishingRod

12-14-2009, 01:45 PM

Honestly, wouldn't you think Larry Holmes would be somewhere on this list? He was one win shy of the most title defenses every. He wasn't spectacular to watch but he was pretty darn good...KO'd guys with his jab.

Not a bad list

Ali was a great Boxer but he in my opinion was given a win over Ken Norton because Ali was Ali. He didn't give Forman a rematch either. Having said that even if you don't consider him the best he would be on everyone list as one of the top 2 or 3. I think a young Forman would have destroyed a young Mike Tyson. A Frazier vs. Tyson or Frazier vs.Rocky fight would have been fun but I think Tyson didn't have the heart to hang with either of them had the fight lasted more than 3 or 4 rounds. When Asked who the greatest heavyweight of all time was, Rocky said Joe Lewis. When Larry Homes was asked about Rocky he said Rocky couldn't carry his Jock. Larry was at the end of his career when he lost and he was fighting a total bum in Spinks when he was trying to tie Rocky's record. Those are a couple of the reasons Larry gets no love.

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 01:46 PM

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 01:47 PM

How do you say that a guy that lost as many fights as Clay/Ali is better then Marciano whom never lost a fight. They even did a computer simulation to see who would have one and Marciano K0d Ali. He couldn't be hurt.

Yeah, that "simulation" was done in the 60's and was bogus. Made for TV.

Marciano was small for a heavyweight. All of the best fighters of his day were in their 30's and 40's. He was never seriously challenged because of the dearth of heavyweight fighters at the time (mainly due to the fact that most of our boys had been fighting in WWII and didn't get into boxing like the earlier and later generations).

Marciano didn't have the tools to be able to compete with Ali. No way.

RaiderH8r

12-14-2009, 01:48 PM

Not a bad list

Ali was a great Boxer but he in my opinion was given a win over Ken Norton because Ali was Ali. He didn't give Forman a rematch either. Having said that even if you don't consider him the best he would be on everyone list as one of the top 2 or 3. I think a young Forman would have destroyed a young Mike Tyson. A Frazier vs. Tyson or Frazier vs.Rocky fight would have been fun but I think Tyson didn't have the heart to hang with either of them had the fight lasted more than 3 or 4 rounds. When Asked who the greatest heavyweight of all time was, Rocky said Joe Lewis. When Larry Homes was asked about Rocky he said Rocky couldn't carry his Jock. Larry was at the end of his career when he lost and he was fighting a total bum in Spinks when he was trying to tie Rocky's record. Those are a couple of the reasons Larry gets no love.

Holmes was a remarkable heavyweight. I think you're dead on about Tyson's heart. Once he ran into adversity in the ring he seemed to turtle up. Joe Frazier had the heart to go with Tyson but I don't think the same could be said of Iron Mike. But for those years Mike Tyson carried the sport.

I think Joe Louis should be ranked higher, he was a beast. He also gave up a chunk of his career to serve. The treatment he received by the IRS later in life was a tragedy.

FishingRod

12-14-2009, 02:05 PM

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 02:15 PM

If Cus D'Amato lived another 7-8 years and Tyson stayed with Atlas, there's no telling what he could have done.

BigVE

12-14-2009, 02:27 PM

If Cus D'Amato lived another 7-8 years and Tyson stayed with Atlas, there's no telling what he could have done.

Definitely...Tyson had the best physical tools but was lacking up top. Cus and Teddy together kept him in check mentally....once Cus died Tyson was done for.

RaiderH8r

12-14-2009, 02:28 PM

Definitely...Tyson had the best physical tools but was lacking up top. Cus and Teddy together kept him in check mentally....once Cus died Tyson was done for.

Once he got married and that broad poisoned his remaining three braincells he was done for.

The Franchise

12-14-2009, 02:42 PM

Jesus

Marciano put Carmine Vingo in a coma with one punch to the temple. When Vingo recovered, he retired. Marciano pounded on Roland LaStarza’s forearms and shoulders nonstop for 3 rounds, until LaStarza’s arms hurt so badly that he couldn’t lift them to his face. Then Marciano knocked him through the ropes. LaStarza’s forearms were both broken, and their bruises were beaten into thick jelly that had to be surgically removed.

Chiefnj2

12-14-2009, 02:42 PM

I think Joe Louis should be ranked higher, he was a beast. He also gave up a chunk of his career to serve. The treatment he received by the IRS later in life was a tragedy.

I'm surprised it hasn't been made into a big motion picture. He never should have been fighting guys like Marciano at his age. It was a shame what happened with him.

Otter

12-14-2009, 03:17 PM

Holmes was a remarkable heavyweight. I think you're dead on about Tyson's heart. Once he ran into adversity in the ring he seemed to turtle up. Joe Frazier had the heart to go with Tyson but I don't think the same could be said of Iron Mike. But for those years Mike Tyson carried the sport.

I think Joe Louis should be ranked higher, he was a beast. He also gave up a chunk of his career to serve. The treatment he received by the IRS later in life was a tragedy.

Joe Louis was screwed over by boxing powers almost as bad as he was from the IRS. Wiki:

Despite Louis's lucrative purses over the years, most of the proceeds went to his handlers. Of the over $4.6 million earned during his boxing career, Louis himself received only about $800,000.[13] Louis was nevertheless extremely generous to his family, paying for homes, cars and education for his parents and siblings,[83] often with money fronted by Jacobs.[84] He invested in a number of businesses, all which eventually failed,[83] including the Joe Louis Restaurant, the Joe Louis Insurance Company, a softball team called the Brown Bombers, Joe Louis Milk Company, Joe Louis Punch (a drink), the Louis-Rower P.R. firm, a horse farm, and the Rhumboogie Café in Chicago.[85] He gave liberally to the government as well, paying back the city of Detroit for any welfare money his family had received.[83]

Who's the criminal here?

HC_Chief

12-14-2009, 03:40 PM

Marciano put Carmine Vingo in a coma with one punch to the temple. When Vingo recovered, he retired. Marciano pounded on Roland LaStarza’s forearms and shoulders nonstop for 3 rounds, until LaStarza’s arms hurt so badly that he couldn’t lift them to his face. Then Marciano knocked him through the ropes. LaStarza’s forearms were both broken, and their bruises were beaten into thick jelly that had to be surgically removed.

Holy #$*^@! :eek:

Skip Towne

12-14-2009, 03:47 PM

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 03:49 PM

Which Leonard? Ray or Benny?

Ray, not the Ghetto Wizard.

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 05:16 PM

Ray, not the Ghetto Wizard.
One of my favs. Moved up and down wt classes. Put on a show without being arrogant to the point of :spock:
Ali was like that too his schtick was funny and entertaining not boring arrogance.

Friendo

12-14-2009, 05:30 PM

In some ways, I think a list of the best middleweights of all time would be a better debate.

Robinson
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
Roy Jones Jr.
Hopkins

The second tier of guys, like Duran, LaMotta, Graziano is excellent as well.

totally agree--in Hearn's early fights he could punch like a howitzer. Sweet Pea was another fav.

Skip Towne

12-14-2009, 06:19 PM

Ray, not the Ghetto Wizard.

My grandad fought Benny Leonard in the summer of 1915. He lost a decision.

Rain Man

12-14-2009, 06:23 PM

Reading these stories makes boxing sound like it's not a lot of fun.

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 06:33 PM

Reading these stories makes boxing sound like it's not a lot of fun.
It is if it's not your medical records they are quoting.
I loved it when I was younger can't watch it today like a food one loses taste for.

Saulbadguy

12-14-2009, 06:38 PM

Rocky Marciano used to punch out fuckin' horses. He ate raw meat. He shit vegetables.

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 07:10 PM

Rocky Marciano used to punch out fuckin' horses. He ate raw meat. He shit vegetables.
Rocky was the toughest SOB to enter a ring. Bleeding from a bashed in nose was like the sniffles for us annoying but not going to stop you from doing something.

http://livewithoutconflict.com/blog/images/2009/05/marciano.jpg

RNR

12-14-2009, 07:12 PM

Ali was being polite.

While Stevenson was an amazing Olympic fighter, there's absolutely no way to confirm that he would have been just as accomplished in the professional ranks, especially considering the fights were five times as long as the time (15 rounds vs. 3).

Stevenson was a great amateur but often times, that doesn't translate to a successful pro career.

To your other post you are spot on. Archie Moore, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, and Walcott were all well past their prime when Marciano fought them. he is the most overrated fighter of all time. Again on this post I agree but do not have the same level of respect for Stevenson that you do. He was a pro that fought amateur. He beat up teenagers not yet polished as fighters. Had he turned pro he could have sold advertisement on the soles of his shoes because he would have been on his back often.

RNR

12-14-2009, 07:15 PM

Tribal Warfare

12-14-2009, 07:19 PM

Rocky was the toughest SOB to enter a ring. Bleeding from a bashed in nose was like the sniffles for us annoying but not going to stop you from doing something.

http://livewithoutconflict.com/blog/images/2009/05/marciano.jpg

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RNR

12-14-2009, 07:36 PM

In some ways, I think a list of the best middleweights of all time would be a better debate.

Robinson
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
Roy Jones Jr.
Hopkins

The second tier of guys, like Duran, LaMotta, Graziano is excellent as well.

If you list Graziano You would be remiss to not list Tony Zale who whipped him two out of three and IMO should be listed as one of the all time greats.
http://www.fighttoys.com/Zale%20vintage%20signed%20photo.htm

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 07:38 PM

Its not Rocky's fault the best of his day were on the downside. He beat everyone they through at him. Kind of like winning golf tournements just before Tiger came along.

WilliamTheIrish

12-14-2009, 07:39 PM

Goddam, sometimes planet dumbassery is a marvel to watch.

Marciano would outlast Ali? JFC, just go sit in the corner and listen to the conversation if you're that ignorant.

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 07:43 PM

If you list Graziano You would be remiss to not list Tony Zale who whipped him two out of three and IMO should be listed as one of the all time greats.
http://www.fighttoys.com/Zale%20vintage%20signed%20photo.htm

This is great
ROFL
Zale was originally cast to play himself in the movie Somebody Up There Likes Me. When Paul Newman (playing Graziano) and he were sparring prior to filming, Newman got rough and Zale knocked him out. Zale was replaced by Courtland Shepard for the final fight scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Zale

WilliamTheIrish

12-14-2009, 07:46 PM

Teofilo Stevenson would of beat them all. Ali said he was glad he was a cuban and not allowed to turn Pro because he said he probably wouldn't have been able to beat him.

Why? Because he beat up Duane Bobbick?

So did Ken Norton. Teo Stevenson would have had his Coobano ass handed to him by Ali, then Castro would have had him killed for losing.

Ali, was one of the nicest men to ever grace the sport. A warrior. And he could move so gracefully. And he stung the living shit outta other great fighters with that jab.

RNR

12-14-2009, 07:47 PM

Goddam, sometimes planet dumbassery is a marvel to watch.

Marciano would outlast Ali? JFC, just go sit in the corner and listen to the conversation if you're that ignorant.

People can love him or hate him but Clay would have destroyed Marciano. Joe Lewis would have done the same had Marciano not caught him well past his prime in a feeble comeback desperate for a paycheck. The greatest heavy of all time is between Lewis and Clay/Ali IMO I am surprised Jack Johnson gets no respect~

RippedmyFlesh

12-14-2009, 07:49 PM

Lewis would have looked like a statue in the ring with Ali

RNR

12-14-2009, 07:53 PM

Lewis would have looked like a statue in the ring with Ali

A slow starter which may have been his undoing against Ali/Clay but still the sweetest left hook I have seen from a heavy including Frazier. Joe Lewis was a amazing fighter

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 07:57 PM

Its not Rocky's fault the best of his day were on the downside. He beat everyone they through at him. Kind of like winning golf tournements just before Tiger came along.

I mentioned that earlier.

He had 43 wins against a bunch of tomato cans before winning the championship.

38 year old Jersey Joe Walcott went 13 rounds with him and knocked Marciano to the canvass in round one. He didn't fight again for a full year, in which he faced a 39 year-old Jersey Joe.

Then, he fought Ezzard Charles, twice. One 15 rounder on points and the other by 8th round TKO.

Then Roland La Starza, again.

Finally, he finished his pro career by beating Archie Moore, a converted light heavy, who also knocked Marciano to the canvass.

There just wasn't any talent in the heavyweight division at that time and it's no fault of Marciano's.

But to say that he'd beat Joe Louis or Muhammed Ali is silly.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 08:23 PM

Marciano doesn't even make my top 10. Every name fighter on his resume was well past his prime. I believe Charles was suffering from Gehrig's disease when Marciano beat him.

Ali is #1 with Louis @ #2. Probably J. Johnson @3, followed by Walcott @4 and Frazier @5.

Holmes @6, Dempsey @7, Liston @8, Foreman @9 and Corbett @10.

I love Ezzard Charles, probably in the top 5 as far as ATG's go, but, he didn't do enough @ hwt to be in the top 10, IMHO.

Also, I would rate The Brown Bomber #1 if his comp had been better.

RNR

12-14-2009, 08:24 PM

My grandad fought Benny Leonard in the summer of 1915. He lost a decision.

That is very cool I would have loved to talk to him about it. Benny Leonard was one of the all time greats~

RNR

12-14-2009, 08:29 PM

Marciano doesn't even make my top 10. Every name fighter on his resume was well past his prime. I believe Charles was suffering from Gehrig's disease when Marciano beat him.

Ali is #1 with Louis @ #2. Probably J. Johnson @3, followed by Walcott @4 and Frazier @5.

Holmes @6, Dempsey @7, Liston @8, Foreman @9 and Corbett @10.

I love Ezzard Charles, probably in the top 5 as far as ATG's go, but, he didn't do enough @ hwt to be in the top 10, IMHO.

Rep given for a fellow student of the "Sweet Science"

ceebz

12-14-2009, 08:34 PM

Rep given for a Rep given for a fellow student of the "Sweet Science"

It's amazing how horrid that list is. An 'all-time heavyweights' list without Jack Johnson? The 'Fight of the Century' may be one of the most important sports events of all time.

And thanks for the rep.

penchief

12-14-2009, 08:35 PM

Agreed. I recently saw some of Tyson's older matches when he was late teens early 20's.........and HOLY SHIT. He would almost kill people in the ring. Best mix of power and speed I've seen.

Too bad he was too much of a pussy to fight anyone. He dodged Holyfield until he thought Holyfield was over the hill. And Holyfield still kicked his ass.

Tyson was the most overhyped boxer in history. He built his reputation by never fighting anyone worth a shit and when he finally did he got his ass kicked. Once he was exposed his overhyped career pretty much crashed and burned from that point on.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 08:41 PM

Too bad he was too much of a pussy to fight anyone. He dodged Holyfield until he thought Holyfield was over the hill. And Holyfield still kicked his ass.

Tyson was the most overhyped boxer in history. He built his reputation by never fighting anyone worth a shit and when he finally did he got his ass kicked. Once he was exposed his overhyped career pretty much crashed and burned from that point on.

Sorry, but, I disagree. Tyson unified the titles. He fought everyone. He was scheduled to fight Holyfied after the Douglas fight, but, he lost.

Tyson's downfall was his inability to keep good people around him, and combined with his fragile psyche, his career quickly turned and it left his legacy unfulfilled.

In all my years of watching and reading about boxing, never have I seen a heavyweight with the power, speed and combination punching that Tyson exhibited in his rise to undisputed Heavyweight Champion.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 08:42 PM

If you list Graziano You would be remiss to not list Tony Zale who whipped him two out of three and IMO should be listed as one of the all time greats.
http://www.fighttoys.com/Zale%20vintage%20signed%20photo.htm

No, you're right. I just put him on there not to have the list be exhaustive, but indicative of the fighters who weren't quite the cream of the crop when it came to middleweights.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 08:43 PM

Goddam, sometimes planet dumbassery is a marvel to watch.

Marciano would outlast Ali? JFC, just go sit in the corner and listen to the conversation if you're that ignorant.

Great White Hope.

TrickyNicky

12-14-2009, 08:44 PM

John Ruiz didn't make the list!??!??!??!

(please dont take that seriously)

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 08:47 PM

Sorry, but, I disagree. Tyson unified the titles. He fought everyone. He was scheduled to fight Holyfied after the Douglas fight, but, he lost.

Tyson's downfall was his inability to keep good people around him, and combined with his fragile psyche, his career quickly turned and it left his legacy unfulfilled.

In all my years of watching and reading about boxing, never have I seen a heavyweight with the power, speed and combination punching that Tyson exhibited in his rise to undisputed Heavyweight Champion.

This.

Once D'Amato died and he left Atlas, Don King and his own demons completely consumed him.

Tyson's hand speed and ability to throw kill shots from odd angles was probably among the most unique skill sets in boxing history.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 08:52 PM

This.

Once D'Amato died and he left Atlas, Don King and his own demons completely consumed him.

Tyson's hand speed and ability to throw kill shots from odd angles was probably among the most unique skill sets in boxing history.

His 'duck-under-the-jab-and-murder-you-with-this-uppercut-killshot' is one of the best techniques I've ever seen, and I've yet to see it replicated.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 08:52 PM

Sorry, but, I disagree. Tyson unified the titles. He fought everyone.

EVERYONE? Before being incarcerated?

Ah, no.

Michael Dokes, Razor Ruddick, Lennox Lewis, Bert Cooper, Riddick Bowe, Mike Weaver and Evander Holyfield all would have whooped his ass before going to jail.

He didn't fight ANYONE under the age of 30 until Buster Douglass, who was 29 years old at the time.

Tyson was a media creation.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 08:53 PM

This.

Once D'Amato died and he left Atlas, Don King and his own demons completely consumed him.

Tyson's hand speed and ability to throw kill shots from odd angles was probably among the most unique skill sets in boxing history.

Too bad he never fought anyone worth a shit before he went to prison.

penchief

12-14-2009, 09:00 PM

Sorry, but, I disagree. Tyson unified the titles. He fought everyone. He was scheduled to fight Holyfied after the Douglas fight, but, he lost.

Tyson's downfall was his inability to keep good people around him, and combined with his fragile psyche, his career quickly turned and it left his legacy unfulfilled.

In all my years of watching and reading about boxing, never have I seen a heavyweight with the power, speed and combination punching that Tyson exhibited in his rise to undisputed Heavyweight Champion.

I respect your opinion and I don't disagree that Tyson had skills but I watched him build his reputation fighting a bunch of bums. Name one really good boxer that he beat. Michael Spinks?

Tyson dodged Holyfield for a long time. IMO, he feared fighting Holyfield because there was too much money to lose if his aura of invincibility was shattered by a better boxer. Hence, he continued to fight bums in order to keep his overhyped career on track.

And when he finally did fight Holyfield he was exposed by the better boxer. JMO.

penchief

12-14-2009, 09:01 PM

ceebz

12-14-2009, 09:03 PM

EVERYONE? Before being incarcerated?

Ah, no.

Michael Dokes, Razor Ruddick, Lennox Lewis, Bert Cooper, Riddick Bowe, Mike Weaver and Evander Holyfield all would have whooped his ass before going to jail.

He didn't fight ANYONE under the age of 30 until Buster Douglass, who was 29 years old at the time.

Tyson was a media creation.

Tyson unified the titles in 87. Then went on to fight an undefeated Tony Tucker and an undefeated Tyrell Biggs. Then after a $ with Holmes, he fought Tubbs then Spinks. Are these really nobodies? :rolleyes:

Tyson had two fights with Ruddock BEFORE he went to jail in 91. Bowe didn't start his pro career until 89. Neither did Lewis. I think you need to take a look at all of these fighter pro careers before you make these baseless accusations. Mike Weaver? Seriously? ROFL

ceebz

12-14-2009, 09:07 PM

I respect your opinion and I don't disagree that Tyson had skills but I watched him build his reputation fighting a bunch of bums. Name one really good boxer that he beat. Michael Spinks?

Tyson dodged Holyfield for a long time. IMO, he feared fighting Holyfield because there was too much money to lose if his aura of invincibility was shattered by a better boxer. Hence, he continued to fight bums in order to keep his overhyped career on track.

And when he finally did fight Holyfield he was exposed by the better boxer. JMO.

Dodged Holyfield? When Tyson was unifying the HWT division, Holyfield was fighting @ Cruiser. Holyfield won the WBC Continental Americas Heavyweight Championship in 89 and a year later, had a scheduled fight with Tyson, (he was ringside in Tokyo) but, Tyson lost to Douglas.

Tyson didn't 'duck' Holyfield nearly as long as you 'remember'.

penchief

12-14-2009, 09:09 PM

Tyson unified the titles in 87. Then went on to fight an undefeated Tony Tucker and an undefeated Tyrell Biggs. Then after a $ with Holmes, he fought Tubbs then Spinks. Are these really nobodies? :rolleyes:

Uh, yeah. Other than Holmes who was way over the hill, they were all pretty much nobodies. He could have fought others who were better. He intentionally dodged Holyfield for a long time. Once Holyfield had the title how long did it take before he gave Tyson a shot? How long did it take him to kick Tyson's ass?

Tyson was way overrated.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 09:12 PM

Tyson unified the titles in 87. Then went on to fight an undefeated Tony Tucker and an undefeated Tyrell Biggs. Then after a $ with Holmes, he fought Tubbs then Spinks. Are these really nobodies? :rolleyes:

Tyson had two fights with Ruddock BEFORE he went to jail in 91. Bowe didn't start his pro career until 89. Neither did Lewis. I think you need to take a look at all of these fighter pro careers before you make these baseless accusations. Mike Weaver? Seriously? ROFL

Biggs? Ha! Tony Tucker was 35 years old took Tyson the full 15 rounds. Michael Spinks was a bloated light heavyweight who fell down and didn't even try to fight.

Lewis beat Tyson in the amateurs. Tyson wouldn't face Dokes, Cooper, Holyfield or Ruddick before Buster Douglass.

Larry Holmes was done. After the fight, Larry was asked who was the better fighter, Earnie Shavers or Mike Tyson. "Tyson hits harder but Shavers was more accurate and a better fighter". Would you face Tyson again? "For another $4 million dollars? I'll do it right now!".

Again, Tyson fought a lot of BUMS before finally fighting Buster Douglas and in no way, shape or form did he face the best fighters of his day while champion.

Once he did, he was beaten. Badly.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 09:14 PM

Uh, yeah. Other than Holmes who was way over the hill, they were all pretty much nobodies. He could have fought others who were better. He intentionally dodged Holyfield for a long time. Once Holyfield had the title how long did it take before he gave Tyson a shot? How long did it take him to kick Tyson's ass?

Tyson was way overrated.

OK, name people he should have fought other than Biggs, Tucker, Tubbs, Bruno and Williams.

I've already stated why fights with Lewis and Bowe were not reasonable at the time, who else should he have fought?

And again, Holyfield won a lesser title @ HWT in 1989. A year later, they had a fight scheduled, but, Tyson lost. How in the world is that ducking Holyfield? :doh!:

penchief

12-14-2009, 09:14 PM

Dodged Holyfield? When Tyson was unifying the HWT division, Holyfield was fighting @ Cruiser. Holyfield won the WBC Continental Americas Heavyweight Championship in 89 and a year later, had a scheduled fight with Tyson, (he was ringside in Tokyo) but, Tyson lost to Douglas.

Tyson didn't 'duck' Holyfield nearly as long as you 'remember'.

Don King dragged his feet for a long time. And I believe Tyson even backed out once because of injury. IMO, Tyson and King wanted no part of Holyfield.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 09:15 PM

Dodged Holyfield? When Tyson was unifying the HWT division, Holyfield was fighting @ Cruiser. Holyfield won the WBC Continental Americas Heavyweight Championship in 89 and a year later, had a scheduled fight with Tyson, (he was ringside in Tokyo) but, Tyson lost to Douglas.

Tyson didn't 'duck' Holyfield nearly as long as you 'remember'.

Yes, he did.

Tyson pulled out of a fight with Holyfield, IIRC, in 1989 due to "injury".

The injury was to his mangina.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 09:19 PM

Yeah, a fighter getting injured, how fucking ridiculous, right?

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 09:27 PM

Yeah, a fighter getting injured, how fucking ridiculous, right?

Wow, getting a little testy, aren't we?

The bottom line is that Tyson avoided the better boxers of the day while champion and he tried to avoid them as much as possible after he lost the title.

Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield for years. Hell, he didn't even fight George Foreman because he knew that his style was tailor-made for Foreman.

Tyson had a few nice, good years. After that, he lost more than he won.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 09:30 PM

ceebz

12-14-2009, 09:35 PM

Wow, getting a little testy, aren't we?

The bottom line is that Tyson avoided the better boxers of the day while champion and he tried to avoid them as much as possible after he lost the title.

Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield for years. Hell, he didn't even fight George Foreman because he knew that his style was tailor-made for Foreman.

Tyson had a few nice, good years. After that, he lost more than he won.

I just think it's ridiculous when people who don't lace up the gloves and get into the ring charge fighters with 'ducking' when they have an injury.

So, ok, let's say Tyson 'ducked' Holyfield in 89. He still planned to fight Holy in the summer of 90. Not exactly the monumental 'dodge' you're making it out to be, is it?

And now it's switched from "Tyson ducked everyone before he went to prison" to "Tyson ducked everyone after he got out." Which is it? I mean, if he so blatantly ducked Bowe and Lewis, you would've known it had to be after he went to jail, right? But, no, you accused him of ducking them prior to his incarceration, even tho they were nobodies at the time. Same with Ruddock. You said, "Tyson ducked him before he went to prison." when Tyson clearly fought him TWICE before he prison term.

Revisionist history at its best. :clap:

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 09:35 PM

Dane, there are a few things that you're forgetting.

1) His handler's were fucked
2) He was fucked in the head.
3) He completely changed his style from a boxer to a one-punch headhunter

Hell, he didn't even hardly train for the Tokyo fight, he was on anti depressants and antibiotics for the clap

Oh, I know about all that stuff. But we could make excuses for Ali as well. He was illegally stripped of his title and not allowed to fight for more than 3 years, losing his prime boxing years. Some people believed Sonny Liston to be truly unbeatable and the toughest man alive, yet he was killed just a few years after he lost the title.

Unfortunately, there's nothing new with Tyson's story or legacy.

Tyson most certainly had potential but he never lived up to it. So, all we have is his ring record to go on.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 09:37 PM

I just think it's ridiculous when people who don't lace up the gloves and get into the ring charge fighters with 'ducking' when they have an injury.

So, ok, let's say Tyson 'ducked' Holyfield in 89. He still planned to fight Holy in the summer of 90. Not exactly the monumental 'dodge' you're making it out to be, is it?

And now it's switched from "Tyson ducked everyone before he went to prison" to "Tyson ducked everyone after he got out." Which is it? I mean, if he so blatantly ducked Bowe and Lewis, you would've known it had to be after he went to jail, right? But, no, you accused him of ducking them prior to his incarceration, even tho they were nobodies at the time. Same with Ruddock. You said, "Tyson ducked him before he went to prison." when Tyson clearly fought him TWICE before he prison term.

Revisionist history at its best. :clap:

Bullshit.

Tyson dodged Holyfield, plain and simple. If he truly had an injury, the fight would have been rescheduled. Instead, they chose NOT to fight Holyfield and instead fight another supposed tomato can in Buster Douglas.

There's no denying that AFTER the Douglas fight, Tyson was never the same.

And lastly, I DID "lace up the gloves" and boxed for more than three years in the amateurs.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 09:43 PM

Bullshit.

Tyson dodged Holyfield, plain and simple. If he truly had an injury, the fight would have been rescheduled. Instead, they chose NOT to fight Holyfield and instead fight another supposed tomato can in Buster Douglas.

There's no denying that AFTER the Douglas fight, Tyson was never the same.

And lastly, I DID "lace up the gloves" and boxed for more than three years in the amateurs.

So, now, he 'just' dodged Holyfield? Quite a change from the "media-driven hype-job that fought no one of significance until 1997." ROFL

They had a fight with Holyfield scheduled after the Douglas fight. Holyfield was sitting at ringside for chrissakes.

Tyson was never the same after he married Robin Givens. That was the beginning of the end.

RNR

12-14-2009, 09:46 PM

EVERYONE? Before being incarcerated?

Ah, no.

Michael Dokes, Razor Ruddick, Lennox Lewis, Bert Cooper, Riddick Bowe, Mike Weaver and Evander Holyfield all would have whooped his ass before going to jail.

He didn't fight ANYONE under the age of 30 until Buster Douglass, who was 29 years old at the time.

Tyson was a media creation.

We will have to disagree about Tyson. We are talking what could have been which does not amount to shit. However had he stayed under the guidance of Cus D'Amato, Teddy Atlas, and Teddy Rooney he could have been special. I detest his rapist ass but his raw power and unorthodox style made him a unique fighter. He was much like Roy Jones Jr. to bring Michael Dokes, Razor Ruddick, Bert Cooper, Riddick Bowe, Mike Weaver into the conversation is a little rich like they fought several greats.

As far as Lennox Lewis he was suited to fight Tyson and I believe he would have handled Tyson regardlessly as he just matches well against him. And Holifield Tyson would have destroyed that roid puffed light heavyweight and he lucked out that he caught Tyson over the hill.

Cannibal

12-14-2009, 09:46 PM

Cannibal

12-14-2009, 09:48 PM

Wrong.

Tyson was a fabrication of Bill Cayton. He didn't even fight ANYONE under the age of 30 until Buster Douglass, who disposed of him. Tyson was never again the same.

Tyson didn't even fight the best fighters of the day: Michael Dokes, Lennox Lewis (not until MUCH later) or Riddick Bowe.

Bowe would have destroyed him with his size, strength and power.

Tyson is a fabrication.

Your post is true.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 09:48 PM

Oh, I know about all that stuff. But we could make excuses for Ali as well. He was illegally stripped of his title and not allowed to fight for more than 3 years, losing his prime boxing years. Some people believed Sonny Liston to be truly unbeatable and the toughest man alive, yet he was killed just a few years after he lost the title.

Unfortunately, there's nothing new with Tyson's story or legacy.

Tyson most certainly had potential but he never lived up to it. So, all we have is his ring record to go on.

Here's the thing:

I think you have to view Tyson and Ali as two different fighters themselves.

Tyson pre-King, Tyson post-King.

Same w/Ali except pre and post 'Nam.

Tyson's handlers helped to ruin him. The gov't fucked over Ali, and his forced suspension robbed him of his speed.

It's not an either/or in their cases.

Tyson pre-King was probably one of the most talented HW's of all time, and would have went down as an all-time great.

Ali, if allowed to fight for those three years probably doesn't end up hanging on as long at the end and doesn't take all the damage that leads to his pugilistic Parkinson's.

RNR

12-14-2009, 09:59 PM

Just out of curiosity how many people here have stepped inside the ropes? Not for any other reason other than just wondering~

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:00 PM

We will have to disagree about Tyson. We are talking what could have been which does not amount to shit. However had he stayed under the guidance of Cus D'Amato, Teddy Atlas, and Teddy Rooney he could have been special. I detest his rapist ass but his raw power and unorthodox style made him a unique fighter. He was much like Roy Jones Jr. to bring Michael Dokes, Razor Ruddick, Bert Cooper, Riddick Bowe, Mike Weaver into the conversation is a little rich like they fought several greats.

As far as Lennox Lewis he was suited to fight Tyson and I believe he would have handled Tyson regardlessly as he just matches well against him. And Holifield Tyson would have destroyed that roid puffed light heavyweight and he lucked out that he caught Tyson over the hill.

I'd take Dokes, Ruddick, Bowe and Bert Cooper over Marvcus Frazier, Mitch "Blood" Green and James "Quick" Tillis any day of the week. Tony Tubbs? Fitting name. Frank Bruno? Glass jaw himself. Bonehugger Smith? Trevor Berbick? Ha! What a joke those guys were.

:D

As for Holyfield, I too think that Tyson should have fought him earlier rather than later. By the time they finally met, Holyfield had been battled tested as a heavyweight.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:01 PM

Just out of curiosity how many people here have stepped inside the ropes? Not for any other reason other than just wondering~

I fought for three years but it gave way to football and basketball. There just wasn't enough time to do everything.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:01 PM

In some ways, I think a list of the best middleweights of all time would be a better debate.

Robinson
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
Roy Jones Jr.
Hopkins

The second tier of guys, like Duran, LaMotta, Graziano is excellent as well.

I have been thinking about this and at this time, I have:

Greb
Monzon
Robinson
Hagler
Cerdan
Hopkins
Ketchel
Burley
R. Jones Jr.
Zale

Any feedback?

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 10:04 PM

It's Bonecrusher, not Bonehugger

ROFL..

Bonehugger is the greatest porn name, ever..

:)

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 10:05 PM

Just out of curiosity how many people here have stepped inside the ropes? Not for any other reason other than just wondering~

Monday Morning QB, here.

Although when I was 9 I used to box the trim in our house pretending it was Ivan Drago.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:05 PM

So, now, he 'just' dodged Holyfield? Quite a change from the "media-driven hype-job that fought no one of significance until 1997." ROFL

They had a fight with Holyfield scheduled after the Douglas fight. Holyfield was sitting at ringside for chrissakes.

Tyson was never the same after he married Robin Givens. That was the beginning of the end.

I don't know why you're laughing. You're clearly in love with Tyson and therefore incapable of having a civil discussion.

And furthermore, you're incorrect, once again: Tyson was never the same after he signed with Don King.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:06 PM

I'd take Dokes, Ruddick, Bowe and Bert Cooper over Marvcus Frazier, Mitch "Blood" Green and James "Quick" Tillis any day of the week. Tony Tubbs? Fitting name. Frank Bruno? Glass jaw himself. Bonehugger Smith? Trevor Berbick? Ha! What a joke those guys were.

:D

As for Holyfield, I too think that Tyson should have fought him earlier rather than later. By the time they finally met, Holyfield had been battled tested as a heavyweight.

Smith and Berbick were the WBA and WBC beltholders at that time. Tyson shouldn't have fought them? Frank Bruno was the Commonwealth champ while Lewis was a nobody at the time.

Clearly your time scale is off, because a lot of the people you complain about Tyson not fighting when he was on top, weren't worthy of a title shot at the time and their handlers would've had nothing to do with a proposed fight with Tyson.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:07 PM

It's Bonecrusher, not Bonehugger

ROFL..

Bonehugger is the greatest porn name, ever..

:)

Do you remember that fight? "Bonecrusher" just held on to Tyson for 12 rounds. He never engaged him. Tyson's legend got to him and he wouldn't fight.

That night, my friends and I renamed him "Bonehugger".

RNR

12-14-2009, 10:08 PM

I fought for three years but it gave way to football and basketball. There just wasn't enough time to do everything.

Respect to a man who is tested by leather by another one who has been also~

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:08 PM

Smith and Berbick were the WBA and WBC beltholders at that time. Tyson shouldn't have fought them? Frank Bruno was the Commonwealth champ while Lewis was a nobody at the time.

Clearly your time scale is off, because a lot of the people you complain about Tyson not fighting when he was on top, weren't worthy of a title shot at the time and their handlers would've had nothing to do with a proposed fight with Tyson.

The point is that they were OLD. They were OLD and washed up. It's not a great achievement to beat a bunch of washed up guys in their mid-30's.

What about that don't you understand?

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:09 PM

Just out of curiosity how many people here have stepped inside the ropes? Not for any other reason other than just wondering~

I have, but, I don't have the skill. Plain and simple.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:09 PM

Respect to a man who is tested by leather by another one who who has also~

Right back at you!

We used to have boxing matches with neighborhood kids in our basement growing up as well (this was before the boxing club). My mom or dad would referee. It was a blast!

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 10:10 PM

Demonpenz

12-14-2009, 10:12 PM

if king hippo had better training he could have been real good, some reason his pants always fell down, I blame that on his ring corner

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:13 PM

The point is that they were OLD. They were OLD and washed up. It's not a great achievement to beat a bunch of washed up guys in their mid-30's.

What about that don't you understand?

You came at me claiming Tyson ducked everyone worth fighting during his reign as champ. That has since changed to he ducked Holyfield and only fought old guys. You have constantly ripped on Tyson for not fighting Bowe and lewis prior to his imprisonment, even though I've pointed out that they didn't start their pro careers until 89.

Yes, your constantly changing argument has me confused, and I give up. Cheers. :clap:

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:14 PM

I think Roy Jones is underrated b/c of his recent exploits and how dominant of a fighter he was.

My favorite fighter of all time is Ray Leonard, but Hagler was definitely the better fighter, and, IMO, the best MW of all time. I don't know if anyone ever legitimately beat Hagler.

If it weren't for the "10 Point Must System", Hagler would have won that fight.

RNR

12-14-2009, 10:15 PM

I think Roy Jones is underrated b/c of his recent exploits and how dominant of a fighter he was.

My favorite fighter of all time is Ray Leonard, but Hagler was definitely the better fighter, and, IMO, the best MW of all time. I don't know if anyone ever legitimately beat Hagler.

Ray Robinson would have toyed with all you listed IMO~

Easy 6

12-14-2009, 10:15 PM

Theres a reason that 'Ali vs. Tyson' video game is so popular... its the Ultimate old against new matchup, both men in their prime were incredible.

I'll take those two, these guys disagree...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rdjblkRkoPU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rdjblkRkoPU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:16 PM

Ray Robinson would have toyed with all you listed IMO~

At welterweight for sure, but at middle? I'm not so sure.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:19 PM

You came at me claiming Tyson ducked everyone worth fighting during his reign as champ. That has since changed to he ducked Holyfield and only fought old guys. You have constantly ripped on Tyson for not fighting Bowe and lewis prior to his imprisonment, even though I've pointed out that they didn't start their pro careers until 89.

Yes, your constantly changing argument has me confused, and I give up. Cheers. :clap:

Tyson didn't fight anyone under the age of 30 while holding the title until Buster Douglas.

Fact.

Tyson beat a bunch of washed up, over-the-hill, mid-30's men to win his titles.

Fact.

Tyson did not face the best fighters of his day. He did not fight Foreman, Moorer, Bowe, etc. He fought Holyfield twice and lost. His first fight with Ruddick was stopped abruptly and should NOT have been stopped.

Regardless of his life outside the ring, Tyson should in no way, shape or form be listed among the Top Ten Heavyweights of all time.

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-14-2009, 10:20 PM

Ray Robinson would have toyed with all you listed IMO~

I think he's the second best of all time, but I think Hagler wears him out. Too good of a chin, too versatile of a fighter.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:27 PM

Tyson didn't fight anyone under the age of 30 while holding the title until Buster Douglas.

Fact.

False. After beating Tucker for the IBF title, Tyson fought Biggs (27), Bruno (28) and Carl Williams (29).

Tyson beat a bunch of washed up, over-the-hill, mid-30's men to win his titles.

Fact.

Maybe so. But, it wasn't Tyson's fault that Berbick, Smith and Tucker were the titleholders. If there were so many better fighters in the division for Tyson to fight, why hadn't any of them taken any belts?

Regardless of his life outside the ring, Tyson should in no way, shape or form be listed among the Top Ten Heavyweights of all time.

I never said he should be. I posted my top ten a few pages back, Tyson is not on the list. Not even close.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:28 PM

I never said he should be. I posted my top ten a few pages back, Tyson is not on the list. Not even close.

Then why are you arguing about Tyson? Why are you taking this so personal?

RNR

12-14-2009, 10:29 PM

At welterweight for sure, but at middle? I'm not so sure.

http://www.secondsout.com/youtube/sugar-ray-robinson/sugar-ray-robinson-vs-joey-maxim
Sorry IMO he is the greatest fighter pound for pound and came damn close to being the LHW champion. And like I said would toy with those listed~

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:32 PM

Maybe so. But, it wasn't Tyson's fault that Berbick, Smith and Tucker were the titleholders. If there were so many better fighters in the division for Tyson to fight, why hadn't any of them taken any belts?

Are you kidding? Do you not remember guys like Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Mike Weaver, Tim Witherspoon, etc.? It was ridiculous. There were so many title holders out there. It was like musical chairs.

Dallas Chief

12-14-2009, 10:33 PM

I think Roy Jones is underrated b/c of his recent exploits and how dominant of a fighter he was.

My favorite fighter of all time is Ray Leonard, but Hagler was definitely the better fighter, and, IMO, the best MW of all time. I don't know if anyone ever legitimately beat Hagler.
This. Ray Leonard is my all time favorite boxer.I hated Hagler for no other reason than I was such a Leonard homer, but I have to agree with your statement about him.
Posted via Mobile Device

Dallas Chief

12-14-2009, 10:39 PM

Monday Morning QB, here.

Although when I was 9 I used to box the trim in our house pretending it was Ivan Drago.
Oh I bet that pissed you off royally when Drago cracked Apollo Creed in the forehead. I was a Russian hatin redneck for a few weeks after I first saw Rocky IV.
Posted via Mobile Device

Earthling

12-14-2009, 10:40 PM

Any list without Jack Johnson in the top 5 all time is incomplete. :D

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:42 PM

Then why are you arguing about Tyson? Why are you taking this so personal?

Because the guy was really great for a period of four years. One of the best I'd ever seen. IMO, he didn't duck anyone in his prime, however, his prime was cut very short because of mental shortcomings, poor management and complacency.

After his return from prison, Tyson was shot. He had the physical tools, but, mentally he was gone. I don't believe he ducked Bowe, Lewis, or anyone else in his post-prison career, because he didn't belong in the ring with them.

I'm very passionate about boxing and it's history. And while Tyson's legacy fell way short of his talents, I just think it's wrong to shit on the guys career and call him a ducker and a cherry picker. From 86-89, there was nobody better. I firmly believe he would've been trouble for any heavyweight throughout history in that form. Unfortunately, he wasn't mentally strong, and it destroyed his career. Call him an underachiever, a rapist, a thug; because he was all those things. But, he was not a ducker and a cherry picker.

Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I just like to see fighters remembered for what they were, not for what the media and haters paint them to be.

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:46 PM

http://www.secondsout.com/youtube/sugar-ray-robinson/sugar-ray-robinson-vs-joey-maxim
Sorry IMO he is the greatest fighter pound for pound and came damn close to being the LHW champion. And like I said would toy with those listed~

Oh, there's no arguing that Sugar is the best ever. But, I'm not sure he was the best ever @ middleweight. His career as a whole, surpasses anything that anyone else has done. But, at middleweight, I'm not so sure he's the best ever. Greb and Monzon would've given him a run for his money. Hagler, too, I believe.

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 10:46 PM

Because the guy was really great for a period of four years. One of the best I'd ever seen. IMO, he didn't duck anyone in his prime, however, his prime was cut very short because of mental shortcomings, poor management and complacency.

After his return from prison, Tyson was shot. He had the physical tools, but, mentally he was gone. I don't believe he ducked Bowe, Lewis, or anyone else in his post-prison career, because he didn't belong in the ring with them.

I'm very passionate about boxing and it's history. And while Tyson's legacy fell way short of his talents, I just think it's wrong to shit on the guys career and call him a ducker and a cherry picker. From 86-89, there was nobody better. I firmly believe he would've been trouble for any heavyweight throughout history in that form. Unfortunately, he wasn't mentally strong, and it destroyed his career. Call him an underachiever, a rapist, a thug; because he was all those things. But, he was not a ducker and a cherry picker.

Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I just like to see fighters remembered for what they were, not for what the media and haters paint them to be.

No problem, Dude. Just try to keep it civil.

We're not talking Chiefs here!

:D

ceebz

12-14-2009, 10:49 PM

Are you kidding? Do you not remember guys like Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Mike Weaver, Tim Witherspoon, etc.? It was ridiculous. There were so many title holders out there. It was like musical chairs.

Yeah, I know this, but, at the time Tyson was ready to go for the belts, Smith, Tucker and Berbick were the beltholders. What was Tyson to do, not fight them?

If it was Thomas, (who Tyson did fight) Dokes and Weaver holding the belts, you'd be complaining that Tyson didn't fight the undefeated Tucker and Berbick. :D

DaneMcCloud

12-14-2009, 11:25 PM

Yeah, I know this, but, at the time Tyson was ready to go for the belts, Smith, Tucker and Berbick were the beltholders. What was Tyson to do, not fight them?

If it was Thomas, (who Tyson did fight) Dokes and Weaver holding the belts, you'd be complaining that Tyson didn't fight the undefeated Tucker and Berbick. :D

Like I mentioned earlier, it's just not that impressive to me that Tyson beat a bunch of bums. I really don't respect any of those fighters, especially Bonehugger Smith. He didn't even fight.

It's a shame that Tyson fell apart because it would have been nice to see him truly tested in his prime. Ali wasn't tested until after he hadn't fought in years, yet he battled through it all (including a broken jaw against Norton).

I personally have a very hard time believing that Tyson would be anything other than a footnote had he fought in the 70's against Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ali and Ron Young.

I just don't think he matches up well with any of them but we'll never know.

Pioli Zombie

12-14-2009, 11:47 PM

"His Mama call him Clay. I'm gonna call him Clay"
Posted via Mobile Device

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-15-2009, 12:02 AM

"His Mama call him Clay. I'm gonna call him Clay"
Posted via Mobile Device

He took a fuckin' beatin for that shit.

alanm

12-15-2009, 12:04 AM

alanm

12-15-2009, 12:22 AM

Ray Robinson would have toyed with all you listed IMO~I remember watching him as a wee lad in the early 60's with my Dad. My Dad and my Uncle both fought in the Missouri Golden Glove tournaments in the early 40's before they were both drafted. My dad said Sugar Ray was the best fighter he'd ever seen. Course the fights I recall were near the end of his career. I think he fought until 64-65. He had retired once in 52 and came back out of retirement in 55. I guess he needed the money.

lostcause

12-15-2009, 12:53 AM

Foreman was one scary mother fucker. Just plain scary.

Jerm

12-15-2009, 01:31 AM

These lists rule...always good to stir up some debate.

Another one to do just that would be a P4P list...can see that varying from person to person.
Posted via Mobile Device

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-15-2009, 01:36 AM

DaneMcCloud

12-15-2009, 02:16 AM

FWIW, I don't have him rated uber high, but I think if he stayed at middleweight, no one would have ever beaten Roy Jones in his prime. He had the speed of Leonard with legitimate knockout power in both hands, and he was a great defensive fighter.

The only knock on Jones is his chin, but outside of the Motor City Cobra, I don't know who would have been able to exploit it.

My wife and I were into the first season of the "Contender", big time.

At the last minute, we paid $1500 for ringside seats to the finale.

Afterwards, I met nearly all of the contestants and spent a good deal of time with Sergio and his family (I told his mother I thought he'd be a champ and I was right).

Anyway, there was an afterparty there at Caesar's and I met Hearns.

DUDE.

His shoulders were SO broad, his arms SO long and his face SO mean and nasty.

Yet, he was the nicest guy.

All I can say is that I'd never want to meet that guy in the ring.

Or a dark alley.

Jerm

12-15-2009, 02:35 AM

That first season of The Contender was epic....sooo awesome to watch.
Posted via Mobile Device

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-15-2009, 02:44 AM

Imagine a guy that size fighting as a middleweight...it's ridiculous.

Do you think that Mora ducked a lot of guys? Seems like he hasn't really fought anyone, even though I loved him on that show.

Jerm

12-15-2009, 02:55 AM

Do you think that Mora ducked a lot of guys? Seems like he hasn't really fought anyone, even though I loved him on that show.

Not to take this off of what you asked but it made me think of something...I wonder what some of you think about Floyd ducking guys as well. This seems to be a big time criticism of his in the boxing community and his critics harp on, just curious as to what some of you believe.

This is why the Pac/Floyd fight IMO is such a historical fight. Floyd actually stepping up to face someone and Pacman looking to cement his all time legacy.
Posted via Mobile Device

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-15-2009, 03:09 AM

Not to take this off of what you asked but it made me think of something...I wonder what some of you think about Floyd ducking guys as well. This seems to be a big time criticism of his in the boxing community and his critics harp on, just curious as to what some of you believe.

This is why the Pac/Floyd fight IMO is such a historical fight. Floyd actually stepping up to face someone and Pacman looking to cement his all time legacy.
Posted via Mobile Device

Margarito and Mosely?

I guess you could critique him for that, but I don't think he's really fought tomato cans either.

He's the best boxer of the decade, IMO.

I actually hope he beats Pac Man.

Jerm

12-15-2009, 03:18 AM

Margarito and Mosely?

I guess you could critique him for that, but I don't think he's really fought tomato cans either.

He's the best boxer of the decade, IMO.

I actually hope he beats Pac Man.

Its an intriguing fight and I think there's convincing cases to be made for either to win...its an amazing fight, a spot on the P4P all time list is on the line IMO.

I actually like Floyd for what he does in the ring but what Pacman is doing right now is just flat out crazy and historic, nothing can compare at least in the modern times.

He's right there with Floyd in the "all decade" discussion if not passed him...just my opinion though.
Posted via Mobile Device

XXXshogunXXX

12-15-2009, 03:58 AM

Margarito and Mosely?

I guess you could critique him for that, but I don't think he's really fought tomato cans either.

He's the best boxer of the decade, IMO.

I actually hope he beats Pac Man.

I have Manny as fighter of the decade.

Baldomir was a linear tomato can. floyd was cheating Marquez on the scales while Manny moved up to fight someone he shouldve, Cotto.

Vick Catcher

12-15-2009, 05:47 AM

I wish Lennox Lewis would be included, however. I remember a stat saying he's beaten everyone he's ever faced (sure, some required a rematch). Not sure of how many title defenses though.

Lewis is probably my favorite 'modern' era heavy weight.

Lennox Lewis was the most dominate heavyweight since Larry Holmes. Easy top 10 of alltime. Tyson ducked him...Bowe ducked him.....Nobody wanted to fight him...and those that did lost..it's that simple.

Vick Catcher

12-15-2009, 05:49 AM

And Lewis, FWIW, had a glass jaw. Rahman and McCall both KTFOd him.

Lewis came back and destroyed both of them....

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-15-2009, 06:13 AM

Lewis came back and destroyed both of them....

Wow, he beat the asses of two bums who should have never been in the ring with him after they knocked him the fuck out.

Let me go congratulate him.

MaxFects

12-15-2009, 07:32 AM

klitchkos made him run into retirement.

RaiderH8r

12-15-2009, 07:56 AM

Any list that doesn't have John O'Sullivan is incomplete.

Vick Catcher

12-17-2009, 06:06 AM

Wow, he beat the asses of two bums who should have never been in the ring with him after they knocked him the **** out.

Let me go congratulate him.

Lennox can say that he beat EVERY fighter he faced..........

unlike 99.9% of the Boxers in history...

"Throughout his professional career, Lewis suffered only two losses, both of which he avenged in rematches. Upon retirement in 2003, he had defeated every opponent he had faced."

don't b hatin'

Vick Catcher

12-17-2009, 06:10 AM

Undisputed heavyweight champion Riddick Bowe refused to fight Lewis and Bowe's WBC title was declared vacant. On January 14, 1993, the WBC declared Lewis its champion.

Lewis successfully sued to try and force Tyson to make a mandatory defense of the WBC title against him or force Tyson to give up the title, winning a four million dollar settlement from promoter Don King. Rather than fight Lewis

BOTH Tyson & Bowe ducked Lennox.....

Vick Catcher

12-19-2009, 04:32 AM

Any list that doesn't have John O'Sullivan is incomplete.

nice!

PornChief

12-19-2009, 07:18 AM

Holmes is EXTREMELY under-rated.

He fought EVERYONE and defended his title more than anyone since Joe Louis.

Don King held him back for three full years while Ali was in decline. Holmes actually knocked out Ali in sparring practice in 1975 at the age of 19.

As soon as Ali regained the the title from Leon Spinks (what a joke!), Holmes fought Norton for the title and won.

He most likely would have beaten Ali in 1975 or '76, if he'd been given the chance.

First guy I thought of was Larry Holmes - he never got the respect he deserved coming in as champ after Ali retired. To me he was the greatest of them all but few people will see it that way.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-07-2010, 04:56 PM

Bump for the fact that I'm about to watch Tyson

DaneMcCloud

01-07-2010, 05:06 PM

That first season of The Contender was epic....sooo awesome to watch.
Posted via Mobile Device

We went to the finale and met Jesse, Sergio and a few other guys.

It was a blast!

DaneMcCloud

01-07-2010, 05:08 PM

klitchkos made him run into retirement.

Uh, no.

He was 38 years old and I really don't think he even liked boxing.

He just did it because he was very good in the ring.

He should have been undefeated but he was just too lazy.

Chiefaholic

01-07-2010, 05:18 PM

In 1973, Jack Dempsey, at 78 years old, was leaving his famous Jack Dempsey’s Broadway Restaurant, in Manhattan, to go home, when a mugger hurried into his cab after him. Before he could demand money, Dempsey turned around, socked his left hook across the man’s chin, and knocked him sprawling out of the car, out cold in the gutter. Dempsey closed the door and the cab drove off. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.

Baby Lee

01-07-2010, 05:26 PM

Uh, no.

He was 38 years old and I really don't think he even liked boxing.

He just did it because he was very good in the ring.

He should have been undefeated but he was just too lazy.

I dunno if they made him retire, but those two post-Steward coaching, would've been formidable for him. It's just a sense, but there seems to be a good bit of respect in Lewis' tone when commenting on their fights.

Mostly, I just wish there WERE formidable opponents for the Klitchkos. They're category killers right now.

Duck Dog

01-07-2010, 05:59 PM

Ali was great but I will never think he could have withstood the violence of a twenty something Mike Tyson.

Brianfo

01-07-2010, 06:28 PM

Ali was great but I will never think he could have withstood the violence of a twenty something Mike Tyson.

THIS

DaneMcCloud

01-07-2010, 06:46 PM

Ali was great but I will never think he could have withstood the violence of a twenty something Mike Tyson.

He withstood Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Liston, Ron Lyle and Ernie Shavers.

Personally, I think he would have thoroughly frustrated, then destroyed Tyson.

AustinChief

01-07-2010, 06:49 PM

He withstood Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Liston, Ron Lyle and Ernie Shavers.

Personally, I think he would have thoroughly frustrated, then destroyed Tyson.

Larry Holmes was the last great heavyweight... the sport took a NOSEDIVE after him. Tyson would have been trounced by any of the champs from the 70s...

RNR

01-07-2010, 06:53 PM

He withstood Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Liston, Ron Lyle and Ernie Shavers.

Personally, I think he would have thoroughly frustrated, then destroyed Tyson.

You are right, it would not have been close. Tyson was a smaller Foreman.

Chiefaholic

01-07-2010, 07:02 PM

Ali was great but I will never think he could have withstood the violence of a twenty something Mike Tyson.

Young Mike was fun to watch, no doubt. But, as Evander pointed out, Tyson couldn't beat a true boxer. Ali would have knocked Tyson out by round 8

AustinChief

01-07-2010, 07:18 PM

You are right, it would not have been close. Tyson was a smaller Foreman.

Smaller with less reach and zero skill.. Foreman wasn't just a FIGHTER he was a boxer... Tyson couldn't BOX.

RNR

01-07-2010, 07:24 PM

Smaller with less reach and zero skill.. Foreman wasn't just a FIGHTER he was a boxer... Tyson couldn't BOX.

I agree Foreman IMO would have embarrassed Tyson much like he did Frazier.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-07-2010, 09:15 PM

AustinChief

01-08-2010, 01:38 PM

Tyson was one of the best combination punchers in HW history, and he could throw punches from every angle.

Don't conflate the Don King era Tyson with the Cus D'Amato/Kevin Rooney Tyson.

He also had perhaps the best hand speed of any HW, ever.

Hand speed=yes
Combination=yes
boxing skill=no

Not that it takes a brain surgeon to box... but Tyson STARTED OUT almost functionally retarded... he could fight... but a true boxer would have put clown shoes on him.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 01:43 PM

Hand speed=yes
Combination=yes
boxing skill=no

Not that it takes a brain surgeon to box... but Tyson STARTED OUT almost functionally retarded... he could fight... but a true boxer would have put clown shoes on him.

I don't know about that. A motivated Tyson using that peek-a-boo style was a match made in heaven. He could get inside on big guys with relative ease.

People like to focus on the awesome knockout shots, but he was an absolutely ruinous body puncher. The first shot he floored Spinks with was a hook to the liver.

He never was the tactician that Ali or Holmes were, but he was a very very good defensive fighter.

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 02:42 PM

Love him or hate him, Tyson at 21 yrs old could have knocked a lot of those guys out in two rnds.

Yep he had a wicked set of uppercuts.

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 02:44 PM

DaneMcCloud

01-08-2010, 02:48 PM

Yep Rocky would just bust their ribs til they stuck their jaw out-then it was goodnight.

Best ever.

Not even close.

Not even in the top ten.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:07 PM

Not even close.

Not even in the top ten.

I can't even imagine the kind of beating Marciano would have taken against Ali, Holmes, or Foreman.

Hell, Ken Norton would have teed off on his ass.

raybec 4

01-08-2010, 03:15 PM

Ali would have gotten wore the f out by Marciano. Marciano hit like a ton of bricks and had the endurance to keep going through Ali's rope a dope. Marciano would have had Ali crapping a liver by the 8th round.

I'm not so sure, if you ever hear Foreman talk about Ali's chin from their fight he talks about hitting him as hard as he possibly could and Ali asking him if that was all he had. I won't say their power was equal but no one can question Big George's power.

DaneMcCloud

01-08-2010, 03:17 PM

I can't even imagine the kind of beating Marciano would have taken against Ali, Holmes, or Foreman.

Hell, Ken Norton would have teed off on his ass.

As would have Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle.

Jimmy Young would have out-boxed him.

AustinChief

01-08-2010, 03:23 PM

How do you say that a guy that lost as many fights as Clay/Ali is better then Marciano whom never lost a fight. They even did a computer simulation to see who would have one and Marciano K0d Ali. He couldn't be hurt.

I hope you aren't serious... Marciano wouldn't be able to touch Ali or Holmes or Foreman... he had t-rex arms... btw that simulation was done in 1967 on a computer with 20k of memory...

By comparison.. the following "simulation" required over 130k of memory...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2FgJpTJb6uw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2FgJpTJb6uw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 03:24 PM

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:25 PM

I'm not so sure, if you ever hear Foreman talk about Ali's chin from their fight he talks about hitting him as hard as he possibly could and Ali asking him if that was all he had. I won't say their power was equal but no one can question Big George's power.

That was in round 8, when Foreman was totally spent from hitting Ali's forearms for the entire fight.

"That all you got, George"

"I remember thinking, 'Yeah, it is'".

If Foreman caught him flush on the chin when he had a full tank, Ali wouldn't have been doing any talking.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:27 PM

have you seen rockys fights-hell he would get TKO off of body shots-he broke peoples jaws

i think he would work Foremans gut til he puked

Bloody tyson til he quit or tried to bite his ear off

knockout ali in 10 and Frazier in 3

Tyson could fight against big heavyweights when he was prime because he had amazing speed, hand-eye coordination, and an impeccable ability to judge distance. Combine that with perfect technique and you had a machine.

Marciano was too damned slow to fight the best heavyweights of the 1970s, and too damned small to get to them.

Tyson could bob and weave inside on those guys. Marciano is just going to end up eating jabs while chasing guys all over the ring.

DaneMcCloud

01-08-2010, 03:28 PM

have you seen rockys fights-hell he would get TKO off of body shots-he broke peoples jaws

i think he would work Foremans gut til he puked

Bloody tyson til he quit or tried to bite his ear off

knockout ali in 10 and Frazier in 3

Untrue.

First off, he was very small. He wouldn't even be a heavyweight today, he'd be a cruiserweight.

Secondly, and this has already been discussed in this thread, the 50's heavyweight boxing scene was terrible due to WWII. Marciano fought a bunch of old guys like Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis and Archie Moore.

He wouldn't have lasted six rounds with Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Lyle, Shavers, Norton or Lennox Lewis.

MOhillbilly

01-08-2010, 03:30 PM

Untrue.

First off, he was very small. He wouldn't even be a heavyweight today, he'd be a cruiserweight.

Secondly, and this has already been discussed in this thread, the 50's heavyweight boxing scene was terrible due to WWII. Marciano fought a bunch of old guys like Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis and Archie Moore.

He wouldn't have lasted six rounds with Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Lyle, Shavers, Norton or Lennox Lewis.

white boys like em cause he is white. People who are into the sport know diffrent.
end of story.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:32 PM

You want to see a good fight between a modern heavyweight and Marciano?

Holyfield circa 1990 vs. Marciano.

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 03:34 PM

Untrue.

First off, he was very small. He wouldn't even be a heavyweight today, he'd be a cruiserweight.

Secondly, and this has already been discussed in this thread, the 50's heavyweight boxing scene was terrible due to WWII. Marciano fought a bunch of old guys like Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis and Archie Moore.

He wouldn't have lasted six rounds with Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Lyle, Shavers, Norton or Lennox Lewis.

like the 70, 80s and 90 heavy weight seen was better??

Yes rocky would not match up well-but damm if he hit any of those guys square just once they would be toast. i think he would work his way inside punching them anywhere he could to hurt them them just wiat for the haymaker-LIGHTS OUT!!!

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 03:36 PM

You want to see a good fight between a modern heavyweight and Marciano?

Holyfield circa 1990 vs. Marciano.

Actually i was going to say Holyfield or Lewis would have the best chance-great boxers and great power.

Lewis had a glass jaw though and would probably get knocked out within 4 rounds.

I have never seen any take a pounding like evander.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:37 PM

Actually i was going to say Holyfield or Lewis would have the best chance-great boxers and great power.

Lewis had a glass jaw though and would probably get knocked out within 4 rounds.

I have never seen any take a pounding like evander.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it would make for the best fight.

Marciano would get destroyed by any of the guys that Dane or I mentioned, IMO.

AustinChief

01-08-2010, 03:38 PM

AustinChief

01-08-2010, 03:41 PM

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it would make for the best fight.

Marciano would get destroyed by any of the guys that Dane or I mentioned, IMO.

I see how it is... I spend a few minutes looking for a damn punchout video to embed and I get left outta the pile-on... great!

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:41 PM

I see how it is... I spend a few minutes looking for a damn punchout video to embed and I get left outta the pile-on... great!

GO FUCK YOURSELF!!

raybec 4

01-08-2010, 03:42 PM

white boys like em cause he is white. People who are into the sport know diffrent.
end of story.

<object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rdjblkRkoPU"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rdjblkRkoPU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:43 PM

like the 70, 80s and 90 heavy weight seen was better??

Yes rocky would not match up well-but damm if he hit any of those guys square just once they would be toast. i think he would work his way inside punching them anywhere he could to hurt them them just wiat for the haymaker-LIGHTS OUT!!!

Force=mass*acceleration.

Plus, very few people get truly KTFO'd by one punch. Usually it's a combination that sets it up. That's why Tyson circa '88 was unstoppable and Tyson circa '97 was a glorified bum.

DaneMcCloud

01-08-2010, 03:44 PM

like the 70, 80s and 90 heavy weight seen was better??

Yes rocky would not match up well-but damm if he hit any of those guys square just once they would be toast. i think he would work his way inside punching them anywhere he could to hurt them them just wiat for the haymaker-LIGHTS OUT!!!

Dude, 185 pound Rocky Marciano WOULD NOT have knocked out 6'3, 225 pound Ali, or Holmes and DEFINITELY NOT Foreman.

People seem to forget that Foreman was also an Olympic Gold Medalist in the 1968 Olympic Games in Mexico.

The dude knew how to box. His biggest mistake was not recognizing Ali's tactics in the ring.

But any of those guys I've listed would have absolutely destroyed Marciano.

MOhillbilly

01-08-2010, 03:45 PM

I have never seen any take a pounding like evander.

never heard of mickey ward? not a heavy but lord this guy could take a multitude of punches...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGsgfJ_Xtc

raybec 4

01-08-2010, 03:47 PM

never heard of mickey ward? not a heavy but lord this guy could take a multitude of punches...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGsgfJ_Xtc

Those Ward V Gatti fights were some of the best you'll ever see.

MOhillbilly

01-08-2010, 03:48 PM

Force=mass*acceleration.

pretty simple really.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 03:49 PM

Randall Tex Cobb...that guy could take a fucking beating.

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 03:57 PM

Dude, 185 pound Rocky Marciano WOULD NOT have knocked out 6'3, 225 pound Ali, or Holmes and DEFINITELY NOT Foreman.

People seem to forget that Foreman was also an Olympic Gold Medalist in the 1968 Olympic Games in Mexico.

The dude knew how to box. His biggest mistake was not recognizing Ali's tactics in the ring.

But any of those guys I've listed would have absolutely destroyed Marciano.

Holmes had a jab that would have been hard for Rocky to get around-but I think rocky would have punished that fat gut til he puked same with Big george. Ali-damm that would be the fight of the century-he was fast enough he probably could have stayed out of the way-I will give you tht one-lol

DaneMcCloud

01-08-2010, 04:16 PM

Holmes had a jab that would have been hard for Rocky to get around-but I think rocky would have punished that fat gut til he puked same with Big george. Ali-damm that would be the fight of the century-he was fast enough he probably could have stayed out of the way-I will give you tht one-lol

Child, please.

Marciano was far too short, far too light and had a 68" alligator reach. There is no way that he could have hurt boxers like Foreman, Ali, Holmes, Shavers, Norton or Lyle.

Again, he'd be a cruiserweight today, not a heavyweight. And giving up 50 pounds in weight, height and reach would have meant the death kill for Marciano.

Marciano was knocked down by 37 year-old Jersey Joe Walcott. He was knocked down by 42 year old Archie Moore, a converted light heavyweight.

Foreman, Ali, Shavers, Holmes or Lyle would have put him in a coma.

FishingRod

01-08-2010, 04:26 PM

pretty simple really.

Except that is is force = mass times acceleration squared.

MOhillbilly

01-08-2010, 04:27 PM

the last one on one i was in the guy ended up with permanent paralysis & permanent hearing loss. I was punchin him real hard.;)
dislocated my pinky.

FishingRod

01-08-2010, 04:29 PM

except that it is mass times velocity squared

MOhillbilly

01-08-2010, 04:30 PM

except that it is mass times velocity squared

i always liked - for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction.;)

FishingRod

01-08-2010, 04:31 PM

That is why golfers are always looking to increase club head speed and why a 150 grain bullet traveling at 3000 ft per second hits harder than a 300 grain bullet traveling at 1500 ft per second.

MOhillbilly

01-08-2010, 04:33 PM

That is why golfers are always looking to increase club head speed and why a 150 grain bullet traveling at 3000 ft per second hits harder than a 300 grain bullet traveling at 1500 ft per second.

my old man was a physics teacher. explained that one to me in a recoil demonstration.
w/ a canon.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 04:33 PM

except that it is mass times velocity squared

Actually, you are talking about momentum which is one half mass times the velocity squared.

KE= 1/2mv^2.

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 04:46 PM

Child, please.

Marciano was far too short, far too light and had a 68" alligator reach. There is no way that he could have hurt boxers like Foreman, Ali, Holmes, Shavers, Norton or Lyle.

Again, he'd be a cruiserweight today, not a heavyweight. And giving up 50 pounds in weight, height and reach would have meant the death kill for Marciano.

Marciano was knocked down by 37 year-old Jersey Joe Walcott. He was knocked down by 42 year old Archie Moore, a converted light heavyweight.

Foreman, Ali, Shavers, Holmes or Lyle would have put him in a coma.

Jersey Joe and Moore-are two of the top ever-they were older but not bums. Hell how old is Evander and he is still fighting-bet he still hits hard-lol

Tyson was short-short arms-lacked boxing skills too If I remember right-it finally caught up to him. My point is that in the ring Anything can happen-and if you have the hardest puncher-at least equal to foreman-anything would be possible.

FishingRod

01-08-2010, 04:53 PM

Actually, you are talking about momentum which is one half mass times the velocity squared.

KE= 1/2mv^2.

well Shit. I certainly begged for that correction.

But back to the topic at hand.
I was always a fan of Rocky and he would have had a punchers chance against the big guys but they would have been stupid not to use their reach and boxing skills. Forman in his prime might have been the best of them all but, he fought a stupid fight against Ali and Ali never gave him a rematch. It is really just not fair to compare the different eras. The Legendary steel curtain of the Pittsburg stealers just wouldn't dominate in 2010 like they did in the 70's either. They probably wouldn't all even be starters. I do think the stud baseball players of the past "might" be able to compete and maybe some of the golfers. Hell they had a crooked stick to hit the ball with compared to the equipment they guys have now.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 04:57 PM

well Shit. I certainly begged for that correction.

But back to the topic at hand.
I was always a fan of Rocky and he would have had a punchers chance against the big guys but they would have been stupid not to use their reach and boxing skills. Forman in his prime might have been the best of them all but, he fought a stupid fight against Ali and Ali never gave him a rematch. It is really just not fair to compare the different eras. The Legendary steel curtain of the Pittsburg stealers just wouldn't dominate in 2010 like they did in the 70's either. They probably wouldn't all even be starters. I do think the stud baseball players of the past "might" be able to compete and maybe some of the golfers. Hell they had a crooked stick to hit the ball with compared to the equipment they guys have now.

The funny thing about boxing is that all the guys that would be world class heavyweights are playing in the NBA or NFL.

Boxing's best era was the 1970s because it's the last time the best athletes weren't funneled away from it. Free agency had effects far beyond the sports in which it was offered. The increase in salaries also made basketball, football, etc. far more palatable than boxing.

The 50th best NBA player is a multi-multi millionaire.

The 50th best heavyweight probably has to work a full time job just to make ends meet.

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 05:02 PM

I think you guys underestimate some of the old time guys-hell they fought bare fisted for as many rounds as it would take. They did not stop fights for blood or whatever-you fought almost til you died. Hard to tell about the 30's 40's and so on because of fight fixing. 80's and 90's roids.

Look how pumped Buster douglas was-he looked roided up to me??

AustinChief

01-08-2010, 05:04 PM

The funny thing about boxing is that all the guys that would be world class heavyweights are playing in the NBA or NFL.

Boxing's best era was the 1970s because it's the last time the best athletes weren't funneled away from it. Free agency had effects far beyond the sports in which it was offered. The increase in salaries also made basketball, football, etc. far more palatable than boxing.

The 50th best NBA player is a multi-multi millionaire.

The 50th best heavyweight probably has to work a full time job just to make ends meet.

exactly... hard for anyone who follows the sport to argue this with a straight face.

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 05:09 PM

Best American atheletes maybe-they dont have NFL in Russia. Russians have dominated the heavy weight class for awhile now.

Chiefaholic

01-08-2010, 05:21 PM

Jersey Joe and Moore-are two of the top ever-they were older but not bums. Hell how old is Evander and he is still fighting-bet he still hits hard-lol

Tyson was short-short arms-lacked boxing skills too If I remember right-it finally caught up to him. My point is that in the ring Anything can happen-and if you have the hardest puncher-at least equal to foreman-anything would be possible.

Tyson's life outside the ring caught up to him. 21 year old Mike was a blast to watch and all the heavyweights feared him. Wasn't it Rudduck that was literally crying in the corner because Tyson gave him so many body shots?

RNR

01-08-2010, 05:59 PM

have you seen rockys fights-hell he would get TKO off of body shots-he broke peoples jaws

i think he would work Foremans gut til he puked

Bloody tyson til he quit or tried to bite his ear off

knockout ali in 10 and Frazier in 3
LMAO He would not stand a chance against any you listed. He would have lost on cuts if he was not knocked out. It would be ugly and he may have ended up brain dead or killed as he was too tough to back off. To compare him to modern fighters shows a lack of knowledge about boxing~

Halfcan

01-08-2010, 06:15 PM

LMAO He would not stand a chance against any you listed. He would have lost on cuts if he was not knocked out. It would be ugly and he may have ended up brain dead or killed as he was too tough to back off. To compare him to modern fighters shows a lack of knowledge about boxing~

I did not start the comparisons-the list had Rocky at number 1-obviously they think he was pretty good as well.

AustinChief

01-08-2010, 06:20 PM

GO **** YOURSELF!!

Just saw this... what the hell???

Damn, I have the exact same opinion (except on Tyson) on this... I would hate to see how you react if I disagreed!

Over-Head

01-08-2010, 06:37 PM

What about Robert DeNiro
That Raging Bull was a bad dude!! :eek:

Skip Towne

01-08-2010, 06:41 PM

What about Robert DeNiro
That Raging Bull was a bad dude!! :eek:

LaMotta was among the dumbest people ever. Strong as an ox and nearly as smart.

Skip Towne

01-08-2010, 06:47 PM

Randall Tex Cobb...that guy could take a fucking beating.

Remember Boom Boom Mancini?

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 08:20 PM

Just saw this... what the hell???

Damn, I have the exact same opinion (except on Tyson) on this... I would hate to see how you react if I disagreed!

sarcasm meter

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 08:27 PM

Remember Boom Boom Mancini?

I remember him killing that Korean

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-08-2010, 08:30 PM

Actually, that Mancini fight would have been a great subject for a 30 for 30 documentary, as it left one fighter dead, the referee committed suicide shortly after the fight, blaming himself for the death, and it threw Mancini into a deep depression he never recovered from as a fighter.

TigerPig

01-09-2010, 12:16 AM

What about Robert DeNiro
That Raging Bull was a bad dude!! :eek:

Was he a heavyweight?

I say the best is Foreman. People may think I'm crazy but winning the belt at the age of 45 (even against a weak field) shows how great he was at 25. Other boxers will say he had THE hardest punch of anyone, and I heard (in an Ed Bradley interview with Ali on 60 Minutes) that Ali will to this day have these blackouts (not from the Parkinsons) which "He's had ever since 'Rumble in the Jungle'." :eek:

But I also don't know crap about these people from back in the day, like Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, etc. I wasn't around then, and I haven't been able to see their fights on ESPN classic like I have the others. So, Foreman.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-09-2010, 12:23 AM

Was he a heavyweight?

I say the best is Foreman. People may think I'm crazy but winning the belt at the age of 45 (even against a weak field) shows how great he was at 25. Other boxers will say he had THE hardest punch of anyone, and I heard (in an Ed Bradley interview with Ali on 60 Minutes) that Ali will to this day have these blackouts (not from the Parkinsons) which "He's had ever since 'Rumble in the Jungle'." :eek:

But I also don't know crap about these people from back in the day, like Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, etc. I wasn't around then, and I haven't been able to see their fights on ESPN classic like I have the others. So, Foreman.

LaMotta was a middleweight.

Ali's blackouts were not caused by Foreman. That's a cumulative effect. Sadly, the worst beatings he took were at the tail end of his career from Trevor Berbick and Larry Holmes.

TigerPig

01-09-2010, 12:34 AM

LaMotta was a middleweight.

Ali's blackouts were not caused by Foreman. That's a cumulative effect. Sadly, the worst beatings he took were at the tail end of his career from Trevor Berbick and Larry Holmes.

I just know what his wife said on 60 minutes...

AustinChief

01-09-2010, 01:27 AM

sarcasm meter

I kinda figured...

Chiefaholic

01-09-2010, 06:57 AM

Had Earnie Shavers trained stamina, he might have been considered one of the greatest. Unfortunately for him, if his opponent survived past round 5, Earnie was done. I met the guy in r/l about 15 years ago and had about a 30 minute conversation with him. Definately one of the coolest guys I've ever met...

Stewie

01-09-2010, 07:04 AM

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-18-2010, 01:54 PM

Anyone wanna argue boxing more?

Micjones

01-18-2010, 02:08 PM

Haven't been following the thread Hamas.
Who are your Top 10 Heavyweights of all-time?

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-18-2010, 02:19 PM

Haven't been following the thread Hamas.
Who are your Top 10 Heavyweights of all-time?

1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Holmes
4. Mike Tyson* (pre-King with Kevin Rooney)
5. Jack Johnson
6. Gene Tunney
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Lennox Lewis
9. George Foreman
10. Joe Frazier

Honorable Mention: Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Ken Norton, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano

Second Note: Although his career was ultimately a failure due to untapped potential and personal problems, no one on that list could have handled the Mike Tyson that fought Spinks in June 1988. Not a one of them.

Micjones

01-18-2010, 02:27 PM

1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Holmes
4. Mike Tyson* (pre-King with Kevin Rooney)
5. Jack Johnson
6. Gene Tunney
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Lennox Lewis
9. George Foreman
10. Joe Frazier

Honorable Mention: Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Ken Norton, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano

Second Note: Although his career was ultimately a failure due to untapped potential and personal problems, no one on that list could have handled the Mike Tyson that fought Spinks in June 1988. Not a one of them.

Interesting list...
Shocked that Marciano and Holyfield don't make your Top 10 though.
And where's Archie Moore?

I also disagree with the idea that Ali couldn't have beaten the late-80's Tyson.

abnchieffan

01-18-2010, 02:35 PM

Larry Holmes. 48-0 before Michael Spinks got him. He held the title for 7 years.

DaneMcCloud

01-18-2010, 02:39 PM

Interesting list...
Shocked that Marciano and Holyfield don't make your Top 10 though.
And where's Archie Moore?

I also disagree with the idea that Ali couldn't have beaten the late-80's Tyson.

Archie Moore wasn't a distinguished heavyweight, nor was he ever a heavyweight champion.

Rocky Marciano was a little guy that would have been destroyed by Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Shavers, etc.

Holyfield would have been about the 12th best heavyweight had he fought in the 70's.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-18-2010, 02:52 PM

Interesting list...
Shocked that Marciano and Holyfield don't make your Top 10 though.
And where's Archie Moore?

I also disagree with the idea that Ali couldn't have beaten the late-80's Tyson.

I figure a lot of people would.

That said, Ali was never a good defensive fighter. He relied on his foot speed and backing away to slip punches. Offensively, he's a good match for Tyson because of his movement and reach. Defensively, it's a nightmare, because Tyson's hand speed would have been able to negate Ali's foot speed and slipping ability.

The Tyson that used the peek-a-boo style and threw punches in combinations would have been a huge test for Ali. He was also a lot stronger than Ali, and could have worn him down in the clinches.

That said, Ali had more heart than any heavyweight in history, so you can't totally count him out.

As far as Holyfield and Marciano are concerned, I didn't rank them as top fighters due to the fact that

1) Marciano was a small guy that took too many punches and could be floored by small fighters without a ton of punching power. His slow and plodding style would have gotten him destroyed against any of the guys on that list, and although Tyson was also a shorter fighter w/o reach, Marciano had neither the head movement, hand speed, or ability in combinations to overcome the lack of size

2) Holyfield never really impressed me. Yes, he beat a shot Tyson who wasn't training hard, and yes he beat a fat Riddick Bowe. But he also struggled mightily against Dwight Qawi, outright lost to Michael Moorer, had a ton of problems with Michael Dokes, not to mention his loss to an unmotivated Bowe. He was a warrior with an underrated chin, but he wasn't fast or big, and you could pick him apart. In fact, if not for Fan Man, Holyfield may well have lost all three Bowe fights. He also gobbled an obscene amount of steroids for the second and third Bowe fights (look at his traps).

DaneMcCloud

01-18-2010, 02:54 PM

He also gobbled an obscene amount of steroids for the second and third Bowe fights (look at his traps).

Without steroids and HGH, Holyfield would have never been a heavyweight.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-18-2010, 02:56 PM

Without steroids and HGH, Holyfield would have never been a heavyweight.

Agreed.

He was also a dirty fighter, which irks me as well.

Micjones

01-18-2010, 04:07 PM

Archie Moore wasn't a distinguished heavyweight, nor was he ever a heavyweight champion.

I think that depends on how you define the term "distinguished Heavyweight". He had to beat five Top Ten Heavyweight contenders to make his bout with Marciano possible (one of which was ranked #1 at one point in Valdez). He beat Valdez TWICE. All while moving down in weight to beat future Hall of Fame Light Heavyweight fighters. He has an eye-popping won-loss record 181-24-9 (145 KO's) in an era where you couldn't pick-and-choose your opponents like you can today. He makes a compelling argument.

Rocky Marciano was a little guy that would have been destroyed by Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Shavers, etc.

49-0.
Beat Ezzard Charles TWICE (both title defenses).
Retired as an undefeated world champ.

He has to be on this list.
Comparing him against fighters from VERY different eras does him a disservice.

Holyfield would have been about the 12th best heavyweight had he fought in the 70's.

Again, that's not the era he fought in. Not sure how you can penalize him...

Simply Red

01-18-2010, 04:15 PM

who'd win in 2010 between Kimbo vs Tyson? Serious question.

TigerPig

01-18-2010, 04:19 PM

1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Holmes
4. Mike Tyson* (pre-King with Kevin Rooney)
5. Jack Johnson
6. Gene Tunney
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Lennox Lewis
9. George Foreman
10. Joe Frazier

Honorable Mention: Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Ken Norton, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano

Second Note: Although his career was ultimately a failure due to untapped potential and personal problems, no one on that list could have handled the Mike Tyson that fought Spinks in June 1988. Not a one of them.

Foreman > Ali IMO. And Tyson was overrated. Foreman had a harder punch than Tyson did, and he had the same endurance. Tyson vs. Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle? No way Tyson wins.