Curry vs McClain

[philfree]

I know Curry is an OLB and MClain is an ILB but regardless of that which one was/is the best LB prospect? I was just thinking about how we need a leader on our D. MClain is a leader so if Berry is gone and we ain't picking Suh is it o.k. to intertain the idea of drafting McClain with our 1st pick? I don't see any OLB/DE tweener that rate that high and there will some good ones in the 2nd round any ways. So what say ye, Mecca and the rest of you guys?

PhilFree:arrow:

[Reaper16]

McClain is the kind of player that KC needs but you simply don't take ILB with a top 5 pick.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2vtwis5.jpg

[philfree]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2vtwis5.jpg

Wow that was great. I never said we should or shouldn't I'm just trying to see what people think. Althoug your answer was somewhat predictable.

PhilFree:arrow:

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I was thinking that leader should be Eric Berry( in conjunction with B-Flow ), but I'm just kooky like that.

[ArrowheadMagic]

McClain is the kind of player that KC needs but you simply don't take ILB with a top 5 pick.


You dont 5 tech DE's either. If Berry is gone.......... its the only player that would make since for the Chiefs needs. NE did take Mayo. Is McClain the player that Willis is? The real question. McClains upside is much higher than Mayo's. Outside of Berry, probably worth the reach.......

[philfree]

I was thinking that leader should be Eric Berry( in conjunction with B-Flow ), but I'm just kooky like that.

Well that's why I stipulated that Berry was gone...already been picked before it was our turn. Berry would be a great get for the Chiefs so it's not a Berry vs McClain scenario.

PhilFree:arrow:

[ArrowheadMagic]

I was thinking that leader should be Eric Berry( in conjunction with B-Flow ), but I'm just kooky like that.


If we dont get ahead of Cleveland..... we arent seeing Berry... Cant be so sanchezied. its not a one prospect or bust draft..... though passing on Berry would be hard to swallow.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

If we dont get ahead of Cleveland..... we arent seeing Berry... Cant be so sanchezied. its not a one prospect or bust draft..... though passing on Berry would be hard to swallow.

Oh no you didn't.

The fact is, we can "see" any goddamned thing we want to see, it's just a matter of how much we want to see it.

Are you willing to watch an impact player like Berry go elsewhere just so we can hold on to 5 rounds of suck capped-off with a kicker in the 7th?

Not me. Yeah, that's an extreme take. But after last year, WTF?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Jesus, it's gonna' be Okung or Cody.

Just kill me now.

[ArrowheadMagic]

Oh no you didn't.

The fact is, we can "see" any goddamned thing we want to see, it's just a matter of how much we want to see it.

Are you willing to watch an impact player like Berry go elsewhere just so we can hold on to 5 rounds of suck capped-off with a kicker in the 7th?

Not me. Yeah, that's an extreme take. But after last year, WTF?


Your not as high on Berry as I am......... McClain isnt a bag of shit either. High for an ILB to be taken, but so is safety.


Either or, the team has improved. That is the goal.

[philfree]

Oh no you didn't.

The fact is, we can "see" any goddamned thing we want to see, it's just a matter of how much we want to see it.

Are you willing to watch an impact player like Berry go elsewhere just so we can hold on to 5 rounds of suck capped-off with a kicker in the 7th?

Not me. Yeah, that's an extreme take. But after last year, WTF?

It's not going to be a matter of willing to unless you want to trade up to get him?

PhilFree:arrow:

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

It's not going to be a matter of willing to unless you want to trade up to get him?

PhilFree:arrow:

I would Tannenbaum the WHOLE thing.

[ArrowheadMagic]

Jesus, it's gonna' be Okung or Cody.

Just kill me now.

Okung is a similar prospect to Clady, but with a bigger frame. Okung plays the run better, foot work on pass protection could be better, but he uses his hands well. Miller beat him a couple times, but okung is a pile driver from the LT spot...... more of a product that there isnt a lot of LT prospects that are good..... but shows you why you cant just draft on positional value. If positional value is high on your list... then yes... the best LT in the draft would be a top 5 pick.

[CoMoChief]

I'd rather take Brandon Spikes in the 2nd rd. I just hope he lasts that long.

I'd also rather trade down to like around 10th spot and draft Taylor Mays. Berry is slightly better, but Mays is a better value pick and we'd pick up another 2nd rounder in the process and maybe a 3rd next season. That would give us 3 2nd rd picks to address MLB, OLB, OL.

Jackson Wilfork Dorsey
Norwood Johnson Spikes Hali
Flowers Carr
Mays Page

[the Talking Can]

i think McClain is every bit as good as Maulaugauaugau coming out last year....and the dude brings the pain when he hits...always seemed like a complete player to me


i'd like him and norwood if we don't get berry....this draft is loaded with lbs for the 3-4 in the first 2 rounds, i don't know enough to know about lower round sleepers....

[DaKCMan AP]

Without getting into specifics, McClain is a premier player in the SEC and is better than Aaron Curry. :D

[Icon]

Very few teams draft a MLB in the top 10 although recently Patrick Willis and Jerod Mayo were selected around #10 I believe. McClain is supposed to be a pretty smart kid from what I've read. Pioli seems to place emphasis on smarts; he clearly undervalues talent, as evident by his selection of Toothless Jackson at #3 overall last year. McClain would be okay if we were able to trade down. I keep reading in the gazillion mocks where McClain would be selected by Denver which currently holds the #8 spot.

[chiefzilla1501]

Jesus, it's gonna' be Okung or Cody.

Just kill me now.

It won't be. The Chiefs' brass seems to be very high on Albert's progress, as they should. And I have enough trust in Phil Emery to see Cody for what he is. I'm hoping. I'll believe it when I see it, but I feel a lot more confident that our front office will do a decent job in this draft. I like the scout team they have in place right now.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Oh no you didn't.

The fact is, we can "see" any goddamned thing we want to see, it's just a matter of how much we want to see it.

Are you willing to watch an impact player like Berry go elsewhere just so we can hold on to 5 rounds of suck capped-off with a kicker in the 7th?

Not me. Yeah, that's an extreme take. But after last year, WTF?


Last year, trading up for Stafford would have been okay with me. He was the one franchise Qb in the draft, so, if they decided that is who they wanted... then fine.

This year, however, the draft is deeper. The new GM and scouts have had a full year to work on this draft. The Chiefs have all their first five rounds of picks. They have an extra second and two extra fifths.

I don't think you can blow too much of that for a safety.

This draft is plenty deep. We will get a good player at 5.

[eazyb81]

Besides McClain's physical gifts and productions, it has to be viewed highly that he has experience in a 3-4 scheme and played under Saban, who is a great defensive coach.

Saban has said he is the best defensive player he's ever coached, and if he passes similar opinions on to certain decision-makers in the NFL, then he will be a top ten pick.

[chiefzilla1501]

Besides McClain's physical gifts and productions, it has to be viewed highly that he has experience in a 3-4 scheme and played under Saban, who is a great defensive coach.

Saban has said he is the best defensive player he's ever coached, and if he passes similar opinions on to certain decision-makers in the NFL, then he will be a top ten pick.

Yeah, that's true. My concern is the same as it was for Curry. Both would play ILB in a 3-4 scheme (Curry will not ever be a 3-4 OLB). And ILBs are role players in a 3-4. I feel like it's the last position you need to worry about in a 3-4. Put a great defensive line in front of our MLBs and they'll play well enough.

[Brock]

I'd have to look into his eyes and gauge his intensity.

[Dayze]

where do you think McClain will go / should go etc?

[kepp]

I'm thinking Sean Weatherspoon with our first 2nd round pick...IF he lasts that long. From what I understand, he's still graded as a 1st rounder, but he didn't exactly blow things up this year.

[chiefzilla1501]

where do you think McClain will go / should go etc?

I don't know his specific draft credentials. But in a 3-4 defense, his draft value goes down significantly.

[DaKCMan AP]

I'm thinking Sean Weatherspoon with our first 2nd round pick...IF he lasts that long. From what I understand, he's still graded as a 1st rounder, but he didn't exactly blow things up this year.

I'd rather have McClain, Norwood or Spikes.

[Dayze]

I don't know his specific draft credentials. But in a 3-4 defense, his draft value goes down significantly.

i wonder how far down etc.
:hmmm:

[Chiefnj2]

Unless Hughes or Graham exhibit fantastic ability to drop back in pass coverage, I can't see how Norwood isn't the top ranked 34 OLB. I feel about Norwood how I felt about Clay Matthews last year. As far as McClain goes, I don't see a Patrick Willis. He's a great tackler, plays well in front of him and I understand he's very smart, but he doesn't seem to be overly athletic and I don't imagine he'd be that great in pass coverage. I can't help but think that he looks a little better than he is because of the scheme they run and the fact that he has Mount Cody in front of him occupying multiple OL.

[chiefzilla1501]

i wonder how far down etc.
:hmmm:

I don't really know the answer to that. I thought New England hit a bit of a sweet spot a few years ago when they added Mayo. And when I look at players like Rivers and Willis, those guys typically fall in the 8-15 range. Rivers isn't a 3-4 backer, but I feel like the value's about the same.

If you're a 3-4 team with a ton of talent on your team, then I can see you adding a stud ILB as a final piece to the puzzle. But if you're talking about a 3-4 with a blank sheet of paper, I think 8-15 but closer to 15. If the Chiefs end up trading down and getting McClain, that would be a whole different story.

[Dayze]

I don't really know the answer to that. I thought New England hit a bit of a sweet spot a few years ago when they added Mayo. And when I look at players like Rivers and Willis, those guys typically fall in the 8-15 range. Rivers isn't a 3-4 backer, but I feel like the value's about the same.

If you're a 3-4 team with a ton of talent on your team, then I can see you adding a stud ILB as a final piece to the puzzle. But if you're talking about a 3-4 with a blank sheet of paper, I think 8-15 but closer to 15. If the Chiefs end up trading down and getting McClain, that would be a whole different story.

yep.
I never thought the Chiefs would be in the top 5 two cosecutive years, and almost seemingly be in 'no man's land' with those picks.

[DJ's left nut]

McClain would immediately be the best player on our defense and in a position of extreme importance, IMO.

Granted, it's high to take a MLB, but if Berry's gone, it's justifiable (and it's not like SS is a normal 'top 5' position either).

If Berry, Clausen and Suh were gone (Suh for the trade down value), then my list would include him, Dez and Bradford.

[chiefzilla1501]

McClain would immediately be the best player on our defense and in a position of extreme importance, IMO.

Granted, it's high to take a MLB, but if Berry's gone, it's justifiable (and it's not like SS is a normal 'top 5' position either).

If Berry, Clausen and Suh were gone (Suh for the trade down value), then my list would include him, Dez and Bradford.

See, I don't think that ILB is all that important in a 3-4. It's just a luxury that's nice to have--same argument I got into last year when talking about Curry's draft value. A 3-4 ILB isn't asked to be a multi-dimensional player, as a 4-3 MLB is.

I mean, think about it. You have 3 linemen in front whose primary job is to occupy blockers (as opposed to a 4-3, where you usually have two DTs and two who are more pass rushers). That makes the job a lot easier for the MLB. And it's not like a cover 2 where you're asking your MLB to play almost like a Safety. You basically have two players playing one position. That's why a lot of teams have bulldozers on one side who are great at run stopping but average against the pass, and another guy whose great at coverage but average at stopping the run.

You can build a very good defense with pure role players at ILB. Getting a real good player there, to me, is more a cherry on the top than anything.

[Chiefnj2]

I'll catch flack for this but I think you can get a very similar player in Micah Johnson later in the draft.

[DJ's left nut]

See, I don't think that ILB is all that important in a 3-4. It's just a luxury that's nice to have--same argument I got into last year when talking about Curry's draft value. A 3-4 ILB isn't asked to be a multi-dimensional player, as a 4-3 MLB is.

I mean, think about it. You have 3 linemen in front whose primary job is to occupy blockers (as opposed to a 4-3, where you usually have two DTs and two who are more pass rushers). That makes the job a lot easier for the MLB. And it's not like a cover 2 where you're asking your MLB to play almost like a Safety. You basically have two players playing one position. That's why a lot of teams have bulldozers on one side who are great at run stopping but average against the pass, and another guy whose great at coverage but average at stopping the run.

You can build a very good defense with pure role players at ILB. Getting a real good player there, to me, is more a cherry on the top than anything.

How can you have just seen the last 3 weeks of Chiefs football and believe that an ILB is not important to a 3-4 scheme?

Jerome Harrison picked up 280 yards rushing without ever really making an incredible move. He wasn't exactly Barry Sanders out there, he was simply waiting for our linebackers to get hung up in the wash or taken out of position, then he'd run forward for 12. On a couple of occasions he broke one b/c the safeties took themselves out as well, but it was the linebacker play as much as anything that made those runs.

This defense is absolutely dead in the water without a strong interior 'backer. We attempted to build a 3-4 with nothing but role players at lineback this season and we're seeing the results.

In my mind, linebackers are the most critical component to a 3-4 scheme.

[RUSH]

I think he fits the description of what Pioli is looking for in a player. By watching Bama play you can see he is undoubtedly the leader and is directing everyone where to go and is an extremely smart football player. He's not the super athlete that Willis and Curry are in terms of speed and quickness but he is definitely a great athlete. He's one of those guys that is always around the ball and has top notch intangibles and instincts. Could get a little better in coverage, but that can improve.

If Berry is off the board then I think McClain is the only other logical choice for us (I'm not as high on Mays as some here). He played in a 3-4 under Saban and is just a great football player. He's exactly the type of player that the Chiefs need on defense.

Top 10 pick in my eyes and IMO the best LB prospect since Willis.

[chiefzilla1501]

How can you have just seen the last 3 weeks of Chiefs football and believe that an ILB is not important to a 3-4 scheme?

Jerome Harrison picked up 280 yards rushing without ever really making an incredible move. He wasn't exactly Barry Sanders out there, he was simply waiting for our linebackers to get hung up in the wash or taken out of position, then he'd run forward for 12. On a couple of occasions he broke one b/c the safeties took themselves out as well, but it was the linebacker play as much as anything that made those runs.

This defense is absolutely dead in the water without a strong interior 'backer. We attempted to build a 3-4 with nothing but role players at lineback this season and we're seeing the results.

In my mind, linebackers are the most critical component to a 3-4 scheme.

In a 3-4, you have a Defensive Line whose responsibility is to build a wall. The Nose Tackle takes on as many as three blockers (our nose tackle is struggling to take on 2). The Defensive Ends, when at their best, can occupy two blockers (Dorsey's doing well right now and while Tyson Jackson's starting to see more double teams, he's not consistent in playing them well). When you have a defensive line that does their job, you keep hats off of the ILBs. The Chiefs have a shitty nose tackle who isn't occupying blockers and Gilberry/Magee got absolutely dominated on Sunday--it's no surprise that it was easily Hali's worst game in run defense. And then on the other side, you have Tyson Jackson who has played extremely inconsistently. If the Chiefs bring in a solid Nose Tackle and get solid/consistent play from Dorsey and Jackson, I can guarantee you that our ILBs are going to look a hell of a lot better. On the other side, you have two OLBs. One of them, typically the LOLB, has a lot of the edge responsibilities.

A 3-4 Defense at its best has a Defensive Line that takes away all of the interior running holes and keeps blockers from getting to the second level. And they have OLBs on the outside that seal the edge. That means that you have two LBs in the middle who only have to patrol the middle of the line (without any blockers to harass them) and take middle pass coverage. And if you have a Safety that flies all over the place, then that Safety can eliminate LB mistakes and, more importantly, serve technically as a 3rd MLB in certain situations. That safety can help out with TE coverage and also anticipate plays and fill in gaps that a LB may not be in a position to fill.

Read any review on a 3-4 Defense. Most of them say that you can get away with role players as ILBs. We don't need a multi-dimensional ILB to stop the run. We need a bulldozer, even if he's dumb as nails, to attack the line and attack it well.

[DaKCMan AP]

McClain would immediately be the best player on our defense and in a position of extreme importance, IMO.

Granted, it's high to take a MLB, but if Berry's gone, it's justifiable (and it's not like SS is a normal 'top 5' position either).

If Berry, Clausen and Suh were gone (Suh for the trade down value), then my list would include him, Dez and Bradford.

Berry would play FS, not SS. Why the hell would we draft Bradford?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Berry would play FS, not SS. Why the hell would we draft Bradford?

Two Brokies are better than one?

[chiefscafan]

Being a Bama fan and watching him for the past two years I can tell you I'm positive he is gonna be a stud in the NFL.

However as I said I agree with reaper we have too many needs on this team to take him with the 5 pick.

I'm really pioli finds a way to do what he did in NE and trade down and acquire picks.


If we could some how trade down with SF and get both firsts or a first and second then he could be an option.

My biggest fear is that Denver takes him and we are forced to play him two times a year for the next ten.

Of course my dream scenario would to be to get both firsts and take him and Cody but that is a BAMA homer talking :)

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

See, I don't think that ILB is all that important in a 3-4. It's just a luxury that's nice to have--same argument I got into last year when talking about Curry's draft value. A 3-4 ILB isn't asked to be a multi-dimensional player, as a 4-3 MLB is.

I mean, think about it. You have 3 linemen in front whose primary job is to occupy blockers (as opposed to a 4-3, where you usually have two DTs and two who are more pass rushers). That makes the job a lot easier for the MLB. And it's not like a cover 2 where you're asking your MLB to play almost like a Safety. You basically have two players playing one position. That's why a lot of teams have bulldozers on one side who are great at run stopping but average against the pass, and another guy whose great at coverage but average at stopping the run.

You can build a very good defense with pure role players at ILB. Getting a real good player there, to me, is more a cherry on the top than anything.

In a 3-4, you have a Defensive Line whose responsibility is to build a wall. The Nose Tackle takes on as many as three blockers (our nose tackle is struggling to take on 2). The Defensive Ends, when at their best, can occupy two blockers (Dorsey's doing well right now and while Tyson Jackson's starting to see more double teams, he's not consistent in playing them well). When you have a defensive line that does their job, you keep hats off of the ILBs. The Chiefs have a shitty nose tackle who isn't occupying blockers and Gilberry/Magee got absolutely dominated on Sunday--it's no surprise that it was easily Hali's worst game in run defense. And then on the other side, you have Tyson Jackson who has played extremely inconsistently. If the Chiefs bring in a solid Nose Tackle and get solid/consistent play from Dorsey and Jackson, I can guarantee you that our ILBs are going to look a hell of a lot better. On the other side, you have two OLBs. One of them, typically the LOLB, has a lot of the edge responsibilities.

A 3-4 Defense at its best has a Defensive Line that takes away all of the interior running holes and keeps blockers from getting to the second level. And they have OLBs on the outside that seal the edge. That means that you have two LBs in the middle who only have to patrol the middle of the line (without any blockers to harass them) and take middle pass coverage. And if you have a Safety that flies all over the place, then that Safety can eliminate LB mistakes and, more importantly, serve technically as a 3rd MLB in certain situations. That safety can help out with TE coverage and also anticipate plays and fill in gaps that a LB may not be in a position to fill.

Read any review on a 3-4 Defense. Most of them say that you can get away with role players as ILBs. We don't need a multi-dimensional ILB to stop the run. We need a bulldozer, even if he's dumb as nails, to attack the line and attack it well.

This is a first. I concur with everything you just typed.

[DJ's left nut]

In a 3-4, you have a Defensive Line whose responsibility is to build a wall. The Nose Tackle takes on as many as three blockers (our nose tackle is struggling to take on 2). The Defensive Ends, when at their best, can occupy two blockers (Dorsey's doing well right now and while Tyson Jackson's starting to see more double teams, he's not consistent in playing them well). When you have a defensive line that does their job, you keep hats off of the ILBs. The Chiefs have a shitty nose tackle who isn't occupying blockers and Gilberry/Magee got absolutely dominated on Sunday--it's no surprise that it was easily Hali's worst game in run defense. And then on the other side, you have Tyson Jackson who has played extremely inconsistently. If the Chiefs bring in a solid Nose Tackle and get solid/consistent play from Dorsey and Jackson, I can guarantee you that our ILBs are going to look a hell of a lot better. On the other side, you have two OLBs. One of them, typically the LOLB, has a lot of the edge responsibilities.

A 3-4 Defense at its best has a Defensive Line that takes away all of the interior running holes and keeps blockers from getting to the second level. And they have OLBs on the outside that seal the edge. That means that you have two LBs in the middle who only have to patrol the middle of the line (without any blockers to harass them) and take middle pass coverage. And if you have a Safety that flies all over the place, then that Safety can eliminate LB mistakes and, more importantly, serve technically as a 3rd MLB in certain situations. That safety can help out with TE coverage and also anticipate plays and fill in gaps that a LB may not be in a position to fill.

Read any review on a 3-4 Defense. Most of them say that you can get away with role players as ILBs. We don't need a multi-dimensional ILB to stop the run. We need a bulldozer, even if he's dumb as nails, to attack the line and attack it well.


You're one of those folks that sees something work in practice and wonder if it will work in theory, aren't you?

Look at what our defense has done with 'role players' at linebacker.

Take all the theoretical principals behind the 3-4 defense you want - we've witnessed firsthand what mediocre linebacking will get you in this scheme.

No thank you.

[DJ's left nut]

Berry would play FS, not SS. Why the hell would we draft Bradford?

Berry could pretty easily play either. I figured the fact that we were playing Morgan at FS could suggest we planned on playing Berry at SS. I'd personally prefer Berry at FS and Morgan at SS, but it's fairly academic either way.

And we would draft Bradford because we have a terrible QB and Bradford would be one of the 5 most accurate passers in the NFL the moment he gets signed. Matt Cassel is the biggest reason our offense is struggling, IMO. The line is a lucky scapegoat for a very sub-standard QB.

Give him a season behind Cassel and under a good QB coach to learn the ropes and make the standard NFL adjustment and he'll be a great QB, IMO.

[The Bad Guy]

If Berry is gone, give me McClain. Look at the difference Willis makes for the 49ers.

[chiefzilla1501]

You're one of those folks that sees something work in practice and wonder if it will work in theory, aren't you?

Look at what our defense has done with 'role players' at linebacker.

Take all the theoretical principals behind the 3-4 defense you want - we've witnessed firsthand what mediocre linebacking will get you in this scheme.

No thank you.

Well, for one, I'm not saying don't upgrade at ILB. But I'm saying you could easily get a beast of a run-stuffer whose average in pass coverage in the very late rounds. You don't need to reach to bring in a multi-dimensional guy who will probably play 1-dimensional football.

And like I said, the reason our ILBs look as bad as they do is a lot moreso due to the uglies in front not doing their job, and our Safeties' limited range to make plays. If the Defensive LIne does their job, the LBs can roam free and attack. If they don't, they get absorbed in blocks. The latter is happening on a consistent basis.

[DaKCMan AP]

Bradford would be one of the 5 most accurate passers in the NFL the moment he gets signed.

:rolleyes:

m'kay

[chiefzilla1501]

You're one of those folks that sees something work in practice and wonder if it will work in theory, aren't you?

Look at what our defense has done with 'role players' at linebacker.

Take all the theoretical principals behind the 3-4 defense you want - we've witnessed firsthand what mediocre linebacking will get you in this scheme.

No thank you.

To your first point, almost any defensive guy will tell you that the Nose Tackle position, not the ILB position, is the most important for a 3-4 (and what's the Nose Tackles primary responsibility? To keep blockers from getting to the LBs/Safeties).

[chiefscafan]

I've had a lot of free time on my hands and I've studdied why this team isn't consistently in these games.

It is up the middle. Not many of Harrisons runs were to the sides everything was mainly up the middle.

So it's your NT, ILB, FS, SS on defense

where are teams attacking us is it the sides? No it's once again up the middle

that's your OG, C, OG on O

now yes we need another receiver who can actually catch the ball lol.

But I'm telling all of you who want okung for our pick are not seeing the big picture.

Albert is a good LT and only getting better but because our middle is so bad he's forced to help out meaning his guy comes free too many times.

If I were drafting or fixing this team in order of importance via free agencey trade or draft I foccuss here

1.NT
2. 2 ILB 3-4 types
3. FS
4. OC
5. OG
6. WR
7. OG. We may have one all ready on our roster not sure
8. 3rd down back a bruiser back to get third and shorts

now 1-3 can go in any order but these have to be adressed anything else is a luxury at this point.

Sorry for such a long post needed to get this off my chest

[DJ's left nut]

:rolleyes:

m'kay

You ever watch the kid throw the football?

Maybe he'll never be able to make the adjustment to the speed/defenses in the NFL.

But he's easily the most accurate thrower to come out of the draft any many years. When it comes to putting a football where he wants it, he's absolutely uncanny.

He's not without his risks, injury and a college offense are obvious. But when I'm looking at QBs, I look for leaders and accurate passers. Bradford has both of those covered in spades.

[chiefscafan]

Makes the lbs then in my mind you have to take Cody. Ideally you want to trade down and get him but if you can't he has to be the pick unless u sign Hampton or wilfork if you do that then you could draft mclain. But Cody is built for 3-4 perfect NT and a deffinsive playmaker just keep him away from the gates BBQ :)

[DJ's left nut]

To your first point, almost any defensive guy will tell you that the Nose Tackle position, not the ILB position, is the most important for a 3-4 (and what's the Nose Tackles primary responsibility? To keep blockers from getting to the LBs/Safeties).

I agree with that.

But Terrance Cody is a lazy pile of shit. I have no interest in him being on this club. So while we would ideally have the NT version of Rolando McClain available to us, we don't.

So if Berry's gone, the next best option would be a very good MLB to anchor the LB corps. While the Ravens don't run a pure 3-4, there's no denying what a difference maker Lewis was when they had Goose clogging up the middle.

I'd rather get a NT worth that slot, but there's not one out there. I'd rather get Berry. But barring either of those, Rolando McClain would be a huge difference maker for our defense.

[DaKCMan AP]

You ever watch the kid throw the football?

Maybe he'll never be able to make the adjustment to the speed/defenses in the NFL.

But he's easily the most accurate thrower to come out of the draft any many years. When it comes to putting a football where he wants it, he's absolutely uncanny.

He's not without his risks, injury and a college offense are obvious. But when I'm looking at QBs, I look for leaders and accurate passers. Bradford has both of those covered in spades.

When I watched him play I saw a guy who had wide open guys and rarely, if ever, had to squeeze a throw into a tight spot. Additionally, he rarely made NFL caliber throws, didn't take many snaps under center and didn't have to read defenses.

[DJ's left nut]

When I watched him play I saw a guy who had wide open guys and rarely, if ever, had to squeeze a throw into a tight spot. Additionally, he rarely made NFL caliber throws, didn't take many snaps under center and didn't have to read defenses.

Yeah, and I believe we've already addressed that in a previous thread.

If that's what you saw, you certainly weren't viewing it objectively.

[chiefscafan]

cHiefnj you aren't far off I really like Micah Johnson I think he is a definite sleeper he is way underated. Most mocks have him going as low as the fourth and fifth rounds. Also a guy who will be a stud is George selvie once again the wonderful scouts are gonna look at his stats and be all not that impressive. Since he had 14 sacks his sophmore year at south Florida he has been double and sometimes trippled teamed. I'm hoping If he is tHere with the late second or early third we take a flyier on this kid. Him and Hali then you would have a pass rush.

But back to micha Johnson the kid is 6'2 255 lbs and is just as good as spikes but without the hype we would be lucky to draft this kid.

[chiefzilla1501]

Makes the lbs then in my mind you have to take Cody. Ideally you want to trade down and get him but if you can't he has to be the pick unless u sign Hampton or wilfork if you do that then you could draft mclain. But Cody is built for 3-4 perfect NT and a deffinsive playmaker just keep him away from the gates BBQ :)

I don't think a Nose Tackle is nearly as tough to find as people think. Denver brought a scrub in and he's doing just fine. As long as our scouts do their job, we can find a diamond in the rough. I also think back to the Jets--they converted Kris Jenkins, a guy on a downhill slide as a 4-3 DT, and turned him into a game-changing Nose Tackle in a 3-4.

Lots of options. I don't want Cody. But I would like for the Chiefs to bring in several different options. If the Chiefs are sharp in their evaluations, they should be able to hit on one who does the job well enough.

[DJ's left nut]

I don't think a Nose Tackle is nearly as tough to find as people think. Denver brought a scrub in and he's doing just fine. As long as our scouts do their job, we can find a diamond in the rough. I also think back to the Jets--they converted Kris Jenkins, a guy on a downhill slide as a 4-3 DT, and turned him into a game-changing Nose Tackle in a 3-4.

Lots of options. I don't want Cody. But I would like for the Chiefs to bring in several different options. If the Chiefs are sharp in their evaluations, they should be able to hit on one who does the job well enough.

So the nose isn't hard to find.

And the LBs can be journeyman types.

So under your calculous, good NFL players don't see necessary to fielding a good NFL defense.

What exactly should we be looking for? Oh yeah, a 5 technique...ugh

[Mr. Laz]

mcclain is completely different than Curry


actually i like McClain better although Curry's position is more valuable IF they rush the passer.

[chiefscafan]

wEll chief zilla if I remember right we hired away the guy who was in charge of the scouting of the Atlanta falcons last year and some scouts from NE Miami and AtL so I think we have smart people running those depts now.

Like I said I'm towrn. I know what an impact MCclain could have on this team and I've secretly wanted on my team since he was a freshman but at 5? I'm just not sure. Like I said I try to trade down and get him. At 8-13 not as bad but at 5 if he isn't a stud it's a wasted pick. Also if we have another bad NT infront of him he may look like a wasted pick thus why I'm towrn.

[ChiefsCountry]

I have been on the Micah Johnson bandwagon quite awhile now.
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5207685&postcount=277

[chiefscafan]

I disagree laz

As a leader there is no comparison he is the qb of that D watch the Texas game you will see what I mean. He did this as a freshman too he was talking and seniors were listening to him. He comes in he becomes the leader of this D and baring injury leads us for 8 plus years. Curry is good but he isn't the leader that MCclain is. But at 5 I'm just not so sure but if he were the pick I'd be esstatic. We better get a great NT though.

[chiefzilla1501]

So the nose isn't hard to find.

And the LBs can be journeyman types.

So under your calculous, good NFL players don't see necessary to fielding a good NFL defense.

What exactly should we be looking for? Oh yeah, a 5 technique...ugh

Not true.

You need playmakers at OLB/DE and one at Safety. It's helpful to have lockdown corners. And while Nose Tackle can be difficult to evaluate, if you're really sharp with your evaluation, you can find a good one without shooting too high. At 5-technique, I think it's a little bit like a Nose Tackle. Important to the defense, but generally you don't reach. I was hoping for Raji last year, but Jackson wasn't too many steps behind in draft value, IMO.

[Mr. Laz]

every chiefs fan needs to pray that they get the new CBA concluded before the draft/free agency or the Chiefs are screwed.

no new CBA means

1. free agency, won't have nearly as many players available which the Chiefs need really bad.

2. Draft, the top picks won't be as valuable because the salary structure won't be fixed and therefore trading down will be difficult as hell unless a QB falls that somebody wants.

[chiefzilla1501]

wEll chief zilla if I remember right we hired away the guy who was in charge of the scouting of the Atlanta falcons last year and some scouts from NE Miami and AtL so I think we have smart people running those depts now.

Like I said I'm towrn. I know what an impact MCclain could have on this team and I've secretly wanted on my team since he was a freshman but at 5? I'm just not sure. Like I said I try to trade down and get him. At 8-13 not as bad but at 5 if he isn't a stud it's a wasted pick. Also if we have another bad NT infront of him he may look like a wasted pick thus why I'm towrn.

It's good to hear that somebody else cares about your first point. I've been pushing that point the past few weeks and nobody thinks it will make any kind of a difference. Pioli may not do a great job with draft value, but with the scouting system we have in place, I'm not overly concerned with him picking up a poorly evaluated player (like we did with almost every late pick last year)

[Mr. Laz]

I disagree laz

As a leader there is no comparison he is the qb of that D watch the Texas game you will see what I mean. He did this as a freshman too he was talking and seniors were listening to him. He comes in he becomes the leader of this D and baring injury leads us for 8 plus years. Curry is good but he isn't the leader that MCclain is. But at 5 I'm just not so sure but if he were the pick I'd be esstatic. We better get a great NT though.
first ... did you notice that i said liked McClain better?

secondly ... being a leader isn't inherit to the position therefore Curry's position IS more valuable if that position is a pass rusher.

[DJ's left nut]

Not true.

You need playmakers at OLB/DE and one at Safety. It's helpful to have lockdown corners. And while Nose Tackle can be difficult to evaluate, if you're really sharp with your evaluation, you can find a good one without shooting too high. At 5-technique, I think it's a little bit like a Nose Tackle. Important to the defense, but generally you don't reach. I was hoping for Raji last year, but Jackson wasn't too many steps behind in draft value, IMO.

So you need a rushbacker and a safety and the rest can be fairly interchangeable in a 3-4?

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that I disagree a great deal and leave it at that.

Put mediocre players at those positions, with a playmaker at safety and OLB and you're still looking at a mediocre defense.

Without those playmakers, you're looking at a BAD defense.

ILB is right behind NT and rushbacker in terms of importance to a 3-4, IMO (and light years ahead of the 5 technique). Otherwise you end up with calamaties like Corey Mays flat running out of a play and a no-name RB rambling for 70 yards and a score.

[chiefscafan]

wEll chiefs country I'm climbing aboard that bandwagon micha is a stud. Like I said before just as good as Brandon spikes without the hype. We would be lucky to have him on our team. Even better him and mcclain damn that would be scary.

[chiefscafan]

Laz I saw you believe mcclain is better I just disagree that he isn't as valuable. Leadership is one of those intangibles that doesn't show up on the stat sheet but is extremely important to a team. That's all I'm saying

[ChiefsCountry]

2. Draft, the top picks won't be as valuable because the salary structure won't be fixed and therefore trading down will be difficult as hell unless a QB falls that somebody wants.

:shake: Yeah lets trade down.

[chiefscafan]

Laz not just that but if cba doesn't happen greedy owners like Jerry jones will turn the NFL into MLB where four teams compete and the rest feed players to those four teams. No CBA means jones can buy every player no salary cap is bad for the NFL

[chiefzilla1501]

So you need a rushbacker and a safety and the rest can be fairly interchangeable in a 3-4?

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that I disagree a great deal and leave it at that.

Put mediocre players at those positions, with a playmaker at safety and OLB and you're still looking at a mediocre defense.

Without those playmakers, you're looking at a BAD defense.

ILB is right behind NT and rushbacker in terms of importance to a 3-4, IMO (and light years ahead of the 5 technique). Otherwise you end up with calamaties like Corey Mays flat running out of a play and a no-name RB rambling for 70 yards and a score.

I didn't say interchangeable. I said they can be found a little later in the draft. That was what made the defense so popular and what made NE successful. They didn't have a lot of hihgly drafted playmakers on defense. They had a lot of role players who were outstanding in their role, but were probably too one-dimensional to succeed in a 4-3.

Think about it. You have 5-techniques whose job is to occupy blockers--in a 4-3, those same guys would have to be stellar at doing that and rushing the passer. At OLB, you don't have to be as stellar stopping the run as you are rushing the passer (which is significantly easier than bringing in a DE that's big, can rush the passer, and cover the pass). You have one ILB who can stop the run, another who can stop the pass (but you don't have to have one who does both). I'm not saying it's easy to find good role players, but it's significantly easier than finding multi-dimensional ones.

It's nice to have multi-dimensional stars at every position. But those are just cherries you add to the top of a functioning defense full of role players. And yes, at ROLB and Safety, you need to have playmakers.

[DJ's left nut]

I didn't say interchangeable. I said they can be found a little later in the draft. That was what made the defense so popular and what made NE successful. They didn't have a lot of hihgly drafted playmakers on defense. They had a lot of role players who were outstanding in their role, but were probably too one-dimensional to succeed in a 4-3.

Think about it. You have 5-techniques whose job is to occupy blockers--in a 4-3, those same guys would have to be stellar at doing that and rushing the passer. At OLB, you don't have to be as stellar stopping the run as you are rushing the passer (which is significantly easier than bringing in a DE that's big, can rush the passer, and cover the pass). You have one ILB who can stop the run, another who can stop the pass (but you don't have to have one who does both). I'm not saying it's easy to find good role players, but it's significantly easier than finding multi-dimensional ones.

It's nice to have multi-dimensional stars at every position. But those are just cherries you add to the top of a functioning defense full of role players. And yes, at ROLB and Safety, you need to have playmakers.

I think a truly elite defense also needs an elite ILB. Not 3 of them, but 1 elite ILB that can command the field, roam zones and get to the edges if need be.

You can build a passable defense, but if you want a great defensive unit in a 3-4, you need a great ILB. McClain is that guy, IMO.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think a truly elite defense also needs an elite ILB. Not 3 of them, but 1 elite ILB that can command the field, roam zones and get to the edges if need be.

You can build a passable defense, but if you want a great defensive unit in a 3-4, you need a great ILB. McClain is that guy, IMO.

Agree to disagree. I think if your Defensive line does their job well, you bring in a playmaker Safety, and you have disciplined OLBs who play their part well you can easily get by with a serviceable MLB. If you have a solid defense all around, the MLB doesn't have a lot of space to cover. Not nearly as much as one in a 3-4. The Safety is forced to cover a ton more ground then a MLB (a good one, at least). BUt that's just my opinion.

[Chiefnj2]

Laz I saw you believe mcclain is better I just disagree that he isn't as valuable. Leadership is one of those intangibles that doesn't show up on the stat sheet but is extremely important to a team. That's all I'm saying

The biggest negative I saw with him is that at times he is overly aggressive and can overrun some tackles.

I was also surprised to see nfldraftcountdown estimate his 40 time to be 4.85. I don't give any stock in those estimations but I wonder why they have him as being so slow when he doesn't play that way.

[chiefscafan]

Thanks chiefzilla for the compliment

that is an aspect I think people forget is your scouting dept obviously gm and the dept weren't on the same page this year they will be.

I think we have good people in place this is a big offseason for us on whether we turn the corner or we become a perineal loser.

[chiefscafan]

Chiefnj

there is combine speed and game speed . Some guys are just faster on the field than in workouts. Be weary of the workout warrior if it doesn't translate on the field you have a bust.

That can be corrected on over agressive but leadership ability that can't be taught you either have it or you don't.

[The Bad Guy]

I think people undervalue linebackers that don't rush the passer. If McClain is a stud, and can come in and run sideline to sideline and take on blockers, he will make a difference on this defense.

As DJ's LN said, this defense is getting gashed right up the middle.

Sign an NT like Hampton or Wilfork (who could be let go with how much they love Ron Brace) and take McClain to fill one LB spot as long as Berry is off the board.

[Chiefnj2]

I think people undervalue linebackers that don't rush the passer. If McClain is a stud, and can come in and run sideline to sideline and take on blockers, he will make a difference on this defense.

As DJ's LN said, this defense is getting gashed right up the middle.

Sign an NT like Hampton or Wilfork (who could be let go with how much they love Ron Brace) and take McClain to fill one LB spot as long as Berry is off the board.

People on this board generally undervalue defensive players who don't get sacks and who don't make "jacked up" type hits.

[Mecca]

He's just not worth the pick, non rushing LB's can be picked later in the draft and be quite productive players. The value isn't there for a guy who isn't a game changer.

And Curry has been pretty pedestrian, he's far and away not the best LB from the class so far.

If you went to bat for McClain with like pick 14 that would be ok, top 5 no.

[DJ's left nut]

He's just not worth the pick, non rushing LB's can be picked later in the draft and be quite productive players. The value isn't there for a guy who isn't a game changer.

And Curry has been pretty pedestrian, he's far and away not the best LB from the class so far.

If you went to bat for McClain with like pick 14 that would be ok, top 5 no.

If my options are to reach for a great player at a less critical position or reach for a bad player at a more critical position (i.e. Terrance Cody), I'm going w/ the linebacker.

I'd take McClain over Mays without a seconds hesitation. Yeah, I'd rather have a playmaking safety, but I don't see Mays amounting to that. You have to weight importance of the position with the aptitude in playing it.

McClain will be an absolute beast of an ILB, IMO. While he may not play as important a position, I'd take him ahead of an overhyped Mays or useless slug like Cody regardless.

Like I said - ILB isn't completely marginalized just because it's not as important as NT. In the absence of a game-changer at NT or Safety, I'd absolutely be happy with McClain.

[RUSH]

He's just not worth the pick, non rushing LB's can be picked later in the draft and be quite productive players. The value isn't there for a guy who isn't a game changer.

And Curry has been pretty pedestrian, he's far and away not the best LB from the class so far.

If you went to bat for McClain with like pick 14 that would be ok, top 5 no.

But who is worth it? We have an LT and QB (kinda) and assuming Berry is off the board then what? We have 5 techs so Suh and McCoy are not options. There is no rushbacker worth the pick. We are good at CB so no to Haden. No WR's worth the pick this year. We are stuck with McClain or Mays. If that's my call then I would take McClain every single time.

[Mecca]

Considering all I ever see anyone do is rail on Mays hows that make him overhyped?

Mays has the typical 4 year starting senior rap, people have seen to much and know to much of him so now all they can do is see negatives.

[DJ's left nut]

But who is worth it? We have an LT and QB (kinda) and assuming Berry is off the board then what? We have 5 techs so Suh and McCoy are not options. There is no rushbacker worth the pick. We are good at CB so no to Haden. No WR's worth the pick this year. We are stuck with McClain or Mays. If that's my call then I would take McClain every single time.

One never has a QB (kinda).

You either have a QB or you don't.

We don't.

Like I said, I'd probably take Bradford (mecca shrieks) but I agree with you that McClain over Mays is the right call.

[Mecca]

If Pioli's first 2 picks are both top 5 and they are a 5 tech and and a MLB....that's brutal.

[DJ's left nut]

Considering all I ever see anyone do is rail on Mays hows that make him overhyped?

Mays has the typical 4 year starting senior rap, people have seen to much and know to much of him so now all they can do is see negatives.

No he doesn't.

Mays has the typical "anchor of one of the worst rush defenses in college football" rap.

I know it's often unfair to saddle someone with the failures of their defense. But when you're the safety most frequently responsible for run support and your team is getting it anal every week by whatever RB comes a courtin', I'd have to say that's an indictment on it's marquis defensive player.

Mays performance and the performance of the team around him this season makes me wonder if he's not just another USC workout warrior.

[DeezNutz]

If Pioli's first 2 picks are both top 5 and they are a 5 tech and and a MLB....that's brutal.

Someone argue this point.

[Mecca]

LOL it's Mays fault that SC lost 9 starters and the guys who stepped aren't as good. How about last year when he anchored the best pass defense and best defense in college football?

[Mecca]

Don't worry man, we'll take Jason Pierre-Paul.

[DJ's left nut]

LOL it's Mays fault that SC lost 9 starters and the guys who stepped aren't as good. How about last year when he anchored the best pass defense and best defense in college football?

So was that Mays or the 9 starters he lost?

I didn't say I wouldn't take the kid if he fell in the 2nd. I'm simply saying that the fact that he lost guys like Cushing and Maulaga...then proceeded to fall on his face, absolutely calls into question his status as an elite prospect.

It absolutely HAS to be considered. When the defense was truly his (he didn't 'anchor' the '08 squad, his LBs did), it sucked donkey balls.

There's simply no way to get around that.

[DJ's left nut]

Someone argue this point.

Sunk cost.

Don't let a dumb !@#$ing pick like Tyson Jackson force you into another bad pick.

[Mecca]

He anchored the secondary, no one else in the SC secondary is really even worth mentioning.

The idea that he should be stopping the run when he's the fucking free safety is ridiculous.

[DeezNutz]

For shits and grins:

We take Berry in the first, and Mays starts to fall deep into round 1--toward the very end. If a team was willing to do it, would you give up both of our 2nd rounders to trade up to get him?

Berry at SS and Mays at FS? Yikes.

[BossChief]

He anchored the secondary, no one else in the SC secondary is really even worth mentioning.

The idea that he should be stopping the run when he's the ****ing free safety is ridiculous.

would he play fs for us? I would im,agine he would play strong side with his size.

[Mecca]

Just because he's big doesn't mean he's not a FS, he's always been a FS and his best skill is his ability to play cover 1 by himself.

Does he have the ability to play in the box, yes, but I don't know why you would do that when he can do so much more.

[Mecca]

For shits and grins:

We take Berry in the first, and Mays starts to fall deep into round 1--toward the very end. If a team was willing to do it, would you give up both of our 2nd rounders to trade up to get him?

Berry at SS and Mays at FS? Yikes.

I have a ridiculously hard time imagining Taylor Mays at worst not being a top 12 pick.

[DJ's left nut]

He anchored the secondary, no one else in the SC secondary is really even worth mentioning.

The idea that he should be stopping the run when he's the ****ing free safety is ridiculous.

The idea that you can just ignore the fact that USC had one of the worst rush defenses in college football when pondering whether or not to take the kid in the top #5 is equally ridiculous.

Does Mike Brown deserve a pass for our rush defense this season? Of course not, he's played a huge role in many of our most egregious breakdowns this season. John McGraw? Nope, he's on the hook as well (or whoever our !@#$ FS of the day would have been).

Mays was in the middle of a lot of those runs. Mays can be seen on many of those plays being late to a run-fit or slow to react. Mays can be seen failing to read the play correctly or failing to make a tackle.

As the primary run-stopping component of the secondary on a team that gave up many MANY long runs this season, he absolutely deserves blame.

Does it mean he's worthless? Absolutely not, but for you to just dismiss it out of hand...well that just sits right alongside your Sanchize fascination as things that undermine your credibility.

[RUSH]

One never has a QB (kinda).

You either have a QB or you don't.

We don't.

Like I said, I'd probably take Bradford (mecca shrieks) but I agree with you that McClain over Mays is the right call.

Oh I agree. I am not a fan of Cassel at all. I was just looking at who the Chiefs could realistically draft. I said kinda because Pioli will never give up on Cassel this early so I don't think QB is an option.

[Mecca]

Dude of course he's late, he's playing FS and not SS for one and for 2 he plays deep cover 1 75% of the time, would you like him to hit the line of scrimmage when he's lined up 25 yards off the ball?

He can't do the job of the entire back 7 by himself.

I love how Mays is getting blame because a bunch of underclassmen didn't just step in and be awesome right way. Taylor Mays started for 3 years and no one said shit of his run defense or really his ability to do anything other than get INT's, and now magically he can't defend the run.

This is why guys leave early you stay and start for 4 years people will start picking you apart for ridiculous stuff.

[DJ's left nut]

Oh I agree. I am not a fan of Cassel at all. I was just looking at who the Chiefs would realistically draft. I said kinda because Pioli will never give up on Cassel this early so I don't think QB is an option.

Oh, well the "what Pioli will do" conversation is a pretty short one, IMO.

Terrance Cody because that's what he thinks Papa Bill would do.

I tend to focus on what I'd do rather than try to read the mind of a sycophant, coat-tail rider.

[Chiefnj2]

Oh, well the "what Pioli will do" conversation is a pretty short one, IMO.

Terrance Cody because that's what he thinks Papa Bill would do.

I tend to focus on what I'd do rather than try to read the mind of a sycophant, coat-tail rider.

How many NTs did papa Bill take in the first round, let alone a top 10 pick?

[DJ's left nut]

Dude of course he's late, he's playing FS and not SS for one and for 2 he plays deep cover 1 75% of the time, would you like him to hit the line of scrimmage when he's lined up 25 yards off the ball?

He can't do the job of the entire back 7 by himself.

I ask again - do we disregard Mike Brown and John McGraw when reviewing the rush defense for the Kansas City Chiefs?

Of course not.

So why do we ignore it in regards to Mays?

It lays at his feet as well. Not enough that I wouldn't draft the kid, but certainly enough that I wouldn't draft the kid over the best LB prospect in the country.

[BossChief]

I have a ridiculously hard time imagining Taylor Mays at worst not being a top 12 pick.

I understand the reasoning of why he doesn't consistently wrap up and dont think it will hurt him in the pros, but I can see where it could cause him to fall a bit come draftday. Film shows lack of causing turnovers and not consistently wrapping up. Top ten picks at safety should do those things imo.

[Mecca]

Uh how about because no one said shit of his ability to defend the run for 3 years? He didn't change the players around him changed. SC's defense is about scheme discipline more than anything when someone doesn't get the job done that's on that player.

SC's LB's were brutal this year, absolutely brutal.

[DJ's left nut]

How many NTs did papa Bill take in the first round, let alone a top 10 pick?

Well Belichick actually won some games, so he didn't need to take them high.

As for how many first rounders he drafted - Wilfork. He doesn't exactly need 2.

How many 5-techniques did he draft in the top 5?

Pioli's made it pretty clear that he doesn't give a large rat's ass about where he's picking in the draft. He's going to take his guy, 20 picks early or no. Belichick had Wilfork, Pioli will need his version of it.

This is part reverse-jinx, but part abject terror.

[Mecca]

I understand the reasoning of why he doesn't consistently wrap up and dont think it will hurt him in the pros, but I can see where it could cause him to fall a bit come draftday. Film shows lack of causing turnovers and not consistently wrapping up. Top ten picks at safety should do those things imo.

Considering at the NFL level I don't think he'll be asked to play to much cover 1 I actually think he'll be a better pro player.

He's been great in college at doing what he's been asked to do but it's not remotely flashy so we have convos like this.

[DJ's left nut]

Uh how about because no one said shit of his ability to defend the run for 3 years? He didn't change the players around him changed. SC's defense is about scheme discipline more than anything when someone doesn't get the job done that's on that player.

SC's LB's were brutal this year, absolutely brutal.

I ask again - do we disregard Mike Brown and John McGraw when reviewing the rush defense for the Kansas City Chiefs?

Of course not.


Because KC's linebackers were elite this season...

And if Mays needs elite LBs all around him to keep his team from being damn near dead last in rush defense in the FBS, he sure as hell isn't worth a top 5 pick. If he's a 'playmaking' safety, not just your average coverage FS, then there's no way his defense is THAT bad. It may be bad, but not MFing awful.

It cannot be ignored.

[Mecca]

Taylor Mays has not looked like Mike Brown lol.

Taylor Mays is the best player on a defense that lacks experience and replaced basically the entire unit besides him. Apparently coming back was a bad move since he's now being picked apart for other players failings.

[BossChief]

ya know, if we did nothing but take usc and Iowa players in the draft since Ferentz and Carrol took over those programs, we would have one hell of a team right now.

[Pioli Zombie]

Chiefs are far under the cap. Overpay and get Vince Wilfork. Draft the safety. Changes everything.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Chiefnj2]

Uh how about because no one said shit of his ability to defend the run for 3 years? He didn't change the players around him changed. SC's defense is about scheme discipline more than anything when someone doesn't get the job done that's on that player.

SC's LB's were brutal this year, absolutely brutal.

He didn't do much run defending in the cover 1 when he was lined up 15-20 yards off the LOS.

[BossChief]

Chiefs are far under the cap. Overpay and get Vince Wilfork. Draft the safety. Changes everything.
Posted via Mobile Device

HOLY SHIT I AGREE WITH SOMETHING PZ SAYS!!!

but really, fuck off!!!

[Extra Point]

Chiefs are far under the cap. Overpay and get Vince Wilfork. Draft the safety. Changes everything.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, just ask Matt Cassel to open his checkbook.

[Mecca]

Taylor Mays frankly isn't really asked to make plays in the run game more than occasionally, if you see Mays tackling guys in the run game it's going to be 10+ yards downfield pretty consistently so the idea that hey the run defense sucks well yea even if he's playing it like he's suppose to it's gonna suck.

I've seen so much ridiculous conjecture to Mays and people not really understanding what he's asked to do. Then on top of that it turned into "oh he's a dirty player" he's being over critiqued at this point.

[DJ's left nut]

Taylor Mays frankly isn't really asked to make plays in the run game more than occasionally, if you see Mays tackling guys in the run game it's going to be 10+ yards downfield pretty consistently so the idea that hey the run defense sucks well yea even if he's playing it like he's suppose to it's gonna suck.

I've seen so much ridiculous conjecture to Mays and people not really understanding what he's asked to do. Then on top of that it turned into "oh he's a dirty player" he's being over critiqued at this point.

So now don't we run into the same argument often made in regards to QBs?Sure, he's got a good build, but if the kid's never been asked to support the run in college, how do we know he can do it? If not, isn't he just another Chris Hope?

Now I'm not sure I even buy that argument, but I also don't think he wasn't asked to stop the run in college. But even taking your argument as facially valid, it's hardly a reason to not question the kid as a top 5 pick.

Mays does not look like a true difference maker to me. He looks like a fine safety that will be in the league for a long time, but I don't see a Polumalu or Reed type player there.

[BossChief]

Taylor Mays frankly isn't really asked to make plays in the run game more than occasionally, if you see Mays tackling guys in the run game it's going to be 10+ yards downfield pretty consistently so the idea that hey the run defense sucks well yea even if he's playing it like he's suppose to it's gonna suck.

I've seen so much ridiculous conjecture to Mays and people not really understanding what he's asked to do. Then on top of that it turned into "oh he's a dirty player" he's being over critiqued at this point.

that happens to all players considered for a top ten pick, let alone a top five or three.

[Mecca]

He is a cover 1 FS why would he be asked to make plays in the run game?

He spent 3 years lining up as the 1 deep safety while Kevin Ellison basically played SS in the box. Mays entire career at SC was protecting against the big play while Ellison played close at the rest of the guys made plays.

It worked for the defense but in some ways did waste Mays pure natural ability.

[Mecca]

that happens to all players considered for a top ten pick, let alone a top five or three.

Unless you are a high rising underclassmen, guys who stay for 4 years and started 3 or 4 of them always get over critiqued.

[DJ's left nut]

He is a cover 1 FS why would he be asked to make plays in the run game?

He spent 3 years lining up as the 1 deep safety while Kevin Ellison basically played SS in the box. Mays entire career at SC was protecting against the big play while Ellison played close at the rest of the guys made plays.

It worked for the defense but in some ways did waste Mays pure natural ability.

Like I said -- assuming for the sake of argument that he was never asked to play the run and should therefore not be held accountable for bad rush defense, why should we just assume he's going to be able to do it?

You railed against Curry because he never rushed the passer in college despite the fact that he has the physical tools of a solid pass-rusher. I happen to agree with that criticism and wonder why it wouldn't apply to Mays. He has the physical tools to be good in run support, but run support from your secondary is primarily about attitude and awareness - how do we know it's there?

It's a TOP. FIVE. PICK. These are absolutely legitimate concerns to have and yet you simply disregard them.

I'm not generally one to call you out on being a homer, but there's no question in my mind that if this kid played in the Big XII you'd hate him.

[BossChief]

Unless you are a high rising underclassmen, guys who stay for 4 years and started 3 or 4 of them always get over critiqued.

true, at least he didnt get hurt. Look at the millions and millions it cost Sam Bradford by returning for his senior year.

How fast is McClain? Does he have Willis' speed? I can tell he is fast, but its hard to tell if he is elite NFL MLB fast and he would need to be for that high a pick to be warrented.

Drafting a mlb that high scares me, but I do see a great leader in the kid and that is half the battle at that position.

We are in desperate need of a leader on our defense.

[Mecca]

I don't think Taylor Mays should ever be used as an in the box run support safety if that's what you're asking me, that is not his game nor should it be.

Taylor Mays is a safety that lets you use your SS as a rover because he can literally play both of the deep cover spots by himself.

[Mecca]

true, at least he didnt get hurt. Look at the millions and millions it cost Sam Bradford by returning for his senior year.

How fast is McClain? Does he have Willis' speed? I can tell he is fast, but its hard to tell if he is elite NFL MLB fast and he would need to be for that high a pick to be warrented.

Drafting a mlb that high scares me, but I do see a great leader in the kid and that is half the battle at that position.

We are in desperate need of a leader on our defense.

He's not Patrick Willis.

[Pioli Zombie]

Yeah, just ask Matt Cassel to open his checkbook.
The Chiefs aren't hurting for money. And btw, stop acting acting like Cassels contract was anything huge. To you and me it is. Not in the world of NFL QBs. He was only gauranteed so much. If he turns out to be a bust they can just release him. And again they are FAR under the cap. So quit acting like its your money or something.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Mecca]

Taylor Mays is basically LaRon Landry, if you like him you'll like Mays, if you don't then you'd want to pass that's the easiest way I can put it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Well Belichick actually won some games, so he didn't need to take them high.

As for how many first rounders he drafted - Wilfork. He doesn't exactly need 2.

How many 5-techniques did he draft in the top 5?

Pioli's made it pretty clear that he doesn't give a large rat's ass about where he's picking in the draft. He's going to take his guy, 20 picks early or no. Belichick had Wilfork, Pioli will need his version of it.

This is part reverse-jinx, but part abject terror.

But it doesn't change the fact that TJ aside, Pioli doesn't have a history of misunderstanding draft value. And for now, I'm willing to see if Phil Emery helps him to avoid reaching. We'll see. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion.

[Mecca]

And I'll also be the first one to say Mays did take some risks this year that ended up being bad choices in trying to make plays to make up for the other guys not being as good.

There were a few games when you could blatantly see him trying to do to much.

[Chiefnj2]

I don't think Taylor Mays should ever be used as an in the box run support safety if that's what you're asking me, that is not his game nor should it be.

Taylor Mays is a safety that lets you use your SS as a rover because he can literally play both of the deep cover spots by himself.

Like he did against Notre Dame this year?

[Mecca]

The guy made a great catch Mays got there when the ball did, credit the WR.

Shouldn't you be busy pimping Russ Okung, god knows we sure fucking need that.

[chiefscafan]

Mecca I live in CA and I believe is a great safety . Only thing that worries me is he played easy this year in order to avoid injury what's to say he doesn't do that when he gets th big contract.

[Titty Meat]

McClain? Gross. And no thanks to Spikes we already have an undersized MLB and he sucks.

[DJ's left nut]

Taylor Mays is basically LaRon Landry, if you like him you'll like Mays, if you don't then you'd want to pass that's the easiest way I can put it.

If Mays' upside is Landry - pass in the top 5.

Landry's a nice player and a guy I'd take at 20.

But to justify a FS in the top 5, you'd better be doing better than LaRon Landry.

Gimme Ed Reed or what Sean Taylor was developing into and we'll talk. I don't see that potential in Taylor Mays, but I see it in Eric Berry.

[Mecca]

He actually got hurt...he missed a game and played on a gimpy knee for a few weeks.

Here you can watch all the Mays debate you want.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37185&highlight=taylor+mays

He's quite the polarizing prospect.

[Mecca]

If Mays' upside is Landry - pass in the top 5.

Landry's a nice player and a guy I'd take at 20.

But to justify a FS in the top 5, you'd better be doing better than LaRon Landry.

Gimme Ed Reed or what Sean Taylor was developing into and we'll talk. I don't see that potential in Taylor Mays, but I see it in Eric Berry.

Landry was taken at 5 I think, 5 or 6.

[DJ's left nut]

Landry was taken at 5 I think, 5 or 6.

And Jackson was taken at 3.

[Mecca]

And Jackson was taken at 3.

Now that is not the same comparison, Landry wasn't thought of as a retarded pick there. He was always projected to go that high.

And yes I'd just love for Taylor Mays to fall to 20, I wanna see him play for the Steelers so basically they can win 8 Superbowls.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I wouldn't compare Mays to Landry. Landry is a poor man's Mays.

[Titty Meat]

I wouldn't compare Mays to Landry. Landry is a poor man's Mays.

Awww shit!

[BossChief]

I think the comparison to Bob Sanders is best from what Ive seen from both players, but IMHO Bob has better instincts but is much smaller.

[Titty Meat]

Taylor Mays is Bob Sanders? No way.

[Mecca]

Mays and Sanders are basically nothing alike other than neither one gets alot of INTs.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I think the comparison to Bob Sanders is best from what Ive seen from both players, but IMHO Bob has better instincts but is much smaller.

Sanders is smaller, slower, and only has 6 career picks. He's basically another undersized Cover 2 linebacker.

Mays is equally good in run and pass coverage.

[Chiefnj2]

Sanders is smaller, slower, and only has 6 career picks. He's basically another undersized Cover 2 linebacker.

Mays is equally good in run and pass coverage.

Mays hasn't proven that he is good in run coverage. He lines up 15 - 20 yards deep.

[Titty Meat]

The few games I watched USC this year though Mays didn't do much. That team looked like dick vs Arizona.

[Mecca]

He's made plays in the run game when he's been by the line it's just very rarely, there's a highlight of him running to the sideline with Jahvid Best and throwing him out of bounds with 1 hand.

[DJ's left nut]

Mays is equally good in run and pass coverage.

Ugh.

Based. On. What?!?!

His rush defense was hideous last season. I postulate it's because he's not good in run coverage, Mecca postulates it's because he wasn't asked to do so.

So either he's bad in it or he wasn't ever asked to do it, I don't really see a 3rd option here seeing as how his teams rush defense was almost historically awful.

Just exactly what do you base the fact that Mays is good in run support on?

[Chiefnj2]

He's made plays in the run game when he's been by the line it's just very rarely, there's a highlight of him running to the sideline with Jahvid Best and throwing him out of bounds with 1 hand.

Can you point me to some goal line stops he has made?

[Mecca]

One thing to really like about Mays is his work ethic and natural drive...

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I do think his best football is ahead of him.

[DJ's left nut]

Now that is not the same comparison, Landry wasn't thought of as a retarded pick there. He was always projected to go that high.

And yes I'd just love for Taylor Mays to fall to 20, I wanna see him play for the Steelers so basically they can win 8 Superbowls.

My point is primarily that I don't really care where a player was picked, it's not representative of the value of the player.

Sims was drafted at 6 and was seen as a steal - happy?

Landry may well have been drafted at 6, that doesn't mean he should have been.

[Mecca]

Landry is a good player, but just like Mays he does something that is so underappreciated no one really notices.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Ugh.

Based. On. What?!?!

His rush defense was hideous last season. I postulate it's because he's not good in run coverage, Mecca postulates it's because he wasn't asked to do so.

So either he's bad in it or he wasn't ever asked to do it, I don't really see a 3rd option here seeing as how his teams rush defense was almost historically awful.

Just exactly what do you base the fact that Mays is good in run support on?

A guy playing a Cover 1/Cover 2 safety isn't going to be loaded up in the box. He's good in the run because he's a big hitter and he's got sideline to sideline speed.

People want to make a big deal of him not being a wrap-up tackler, and that's just bunk. He wraps up when he needs to and he drops the hammer when he needs to.

You can't blame one safety for the fact that Carrol lost basically everyone else on that defense from last year to the NFL. That's a huge amount of talent to evaporate.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

When I watched him play I saw a guy who had wide open guys and rarely, if ever, had to squeeze a throw into a tight spot. Additionally, he rarely made NFL caliber throws, didn't take many snaps under center and didn't have to read defenses.

Not all of us get to bask in the majesty of the Holy One. That said, I wouldn't want Bradford either. Didn't want him last year, sure as hell don't want him after the injury.



For shits and grins:

We take Berry in the first, and Mays starts to fall deep into round 1--toward the very end. If a team was willing to do it, would you give up both of our 2nd rounders to trade up to get him?

Berry at SS and Mays at FS? Yikes.

One 2nd and a 3rd.

[BossChief]

damn, when someone brought him up (Bob Sanders) in another thread, I thought it was a good comparison from what Ive seen. They bring a physical presence and have a nose for the ball, but dont show good ability to cause turnovers.

damn, I didnt think it was that far off base...

[DJ's left nut]

A guy playing a Cover 1/Cover 2 safety isn't going to be loaded up in the box. He's good in the run because he's a big hitter and he's got sideline to sideline speed.

People want to make a big deal of him not being a wrap-up tackler, and that's just bunk. He wraps up when he needs to and he drops the hammer when he needs to.

You can't blame one safety for the fact that Carrol lost basically everyone else on that defense from last year to the NFL. That's a huge amount of talent to evaporate.

He's not good in run support until we see it.

Pollard had the speed and size to be a good run-stopper but never got coached on the proper routes to the ball or technique. He never learned how he fit into the scheme and pretty much just free-lanced, often getting caught out of position.

We won't know if Mays will suffer from similar maladies until he tries it. Being big and fast doesn't automatically equate to being a run stuffer in the secondary anymore than it meant that Kawika Mitchell would be a good one because he was built and could run.

Does Taylor Mays have the tools to be good in run support? Absolutely - but we certainly can't say that he IS good in run support based on his resume.

[Mecca]

Dude Pollard has nothing on Mays in speed and size, take Pollard add 20lbs and 2 inches to him and make him run a sub 4.3 40, that's Mays. Taylor Mays is faster than everyone on the Chiefs roster.

Also Mays has never freelanced if there's one thing about the SC system it's that some guys never really get to make plays because they are expected to be scheme disciplined.

[Mecca]

Here's Mays in the box...

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[Chiefnj2]

Oregon v. USC highlights. Look for the big plays from Mays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMllSmi4QZc&feature=related

[Titty Meat]

Bernard Pollard fucking sucks why the fuck do people still talk about that scrub?

[Mecca]

Haha the Oregon game is actually a good game to use for people who think Mays just goes for hits, he had several wrap tackles on RB's down the field where he was the last defender, but hey that's obviously his fault the run D sucks.

[Titty Meat]

Here's Mays in the box...

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Atleast he takes good angles thats an upgrade.

[DJ's left nut]

Dude Pollard has nothing on Mays in speed and size, take Pollard add 20lbs and 2 inches to him and make him run a sub 4.3 40, that's Mays. Taylor Mays is faster than everyone on the Chiefs roster.

Also Mays has never freelanced if there's one thing about the SC system it's that some guys never really get to make plays because they are expected to be scheme disciplined.

Not my point.

My point is that Pollard had the size and athleticism to be significantly better in run-support than he was. It's an easy analogy and I didn't feel like digging any further for a better example.

Having the physical tools to do something doesn't mean you will.

We'll know that Mays is good in run support only when he's asked to be.

[Mecca]

Not my point.

My point is that Pollard had the size and athleticism to be significantly better in run-support than he was. It's an easy analogy and I didn't feel like digging any further for a better example.

Having the physical tools to do something doesn't mean you will.

We'll know that Mays is good in run support only when he's asked to be.

I think that is untrue, many people here flipped the minute Pollard was picked that we took a guy who ran a 4.6 to play in the secondary.

Pollard is not really athletic and not athletic in all in comparison to Taylor Mays.

[Chiefnj2]

Haha the Oregon game is actually a good game to use for people who think Mays just goes for hits, he had several wrap tackles on RB's down the field where he was the last defender, but hey that's obviously his fault the run D sucks.

I like his run defense at the 3:19 mark.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

He's not good in run support until we see it.

Pollard had the speed and size to be a good run-stopper but never got coached on the proper routes to the ball or technique. He never learned how he fit into the scheme and pretty much just free-lanced, often getting caught out of position.

We won't know if Mays will suffer from similar maladies until he tries it. Being big and fast doesn't automatically equate to being a run stuffer in the secondary anymore than it meant that Kawika Mitchell would be a good one because he was built and could run.

Does Taylor Mays have the tools to be good in run support? Absolutely - but we certainly can't say that he IS good in run support based on his resume.

What the fuck?

You could add a quarter of a second to Mays' 40 time, and he'd still be faster than Pollard. He's also 25 pounds heavier.

He also plays free safety

As far as his skill in run support, check the scouting report of him on Walter, or CBS's NFL draft site, "Run Support: Has played deep in a zone scheme in the past, but flashes outstanding ability in run support. Good key-and-diagnose skills. Can elude blocks, but is willing to take them on and can discard due to his upper-body strength and long arms. Big hitter who runs downhill toward the line of scrimmage.", or you can watch what he did to Jahvid Best,

[Mecca]

Jahvid Best is a track guy and Mays cut him down on an edge play, think about that.

[Chiefnj2]

Jahvid Best is a track guy and Mays cut him down on an edge play, think about that.

Nobody is saying Mays isn't fast.

[chiefzilla1501]

Haha the Oregon game is actually a good game to use for people who think Mays just goes for hits, he had several wrap tackles on RB's down the field where he was the last defender, but hey that's obviously his fault the run D sucks.

Mecca, I honestly don't know much about Mays. Seems like a freakish talent.

How smart would you say the kid is?

I don't know if I ever felt excited about him being a top 5 pick, but if Berry's gone, he might be the best available option.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I like his run defense at the 3:19 mark.

You are the worst kind of dumbfuck. You let your dislike of other posters color your analysis. Exactly how is Mays' not stopping a triple option a complete indictment on his run defense.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Bernard Pollard fucking sucks why the fuck do people still talk about that scrub?

( phone rings )

ROR: "Hello"? "Oh, okay. No problem".



Billay, Pollard says "Piss on you".

[DJ's left nut]

You are the worst kind of dumb****. You let your dislike of other posters color your analysis. Exactly how is Mays' not stopping a triple option a complete indictment on his run defense.

And Derrick Thomas once intercepted a pass.

The difference between luck and skill is its duration.

I'm not saying that Mays won't be good in run support, I'm saying that you can't say he IS good in run support. His resume, whether you put stock in the "he doesn't play in run support" argument or in the "his teams rush defense sucks and he was an integral component of it" argument, doesn't allow for it. The play in question is a solid example of his insincts not being on par with his athletic ability. Maybe they'll catch up, but right now they aren't there.

Like I said, I think he'll be a good player. I just don't think he'll be good enough to justify taking him at 4 or 5.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

And Derrick Thomas once intercepted a pass.

The difference between luck and skill is its duration.

I'm not saying that Mays won't be good in run support, I'm saying that you can't say he IS good in run support. His resume, whether you put stock in the "he doesn't play in run support" argument or in the "his teams rush defense sucks and he was an integral component of it" argument, doesn't allow for it. The play in question is a solid example of his insincts not being on par with his athletic ability. Maybe they'll catch up, but right now they aren't there.

Like I said, I think he'll be a good player. I just don't think he'll be good enough to justify taking him at 4 or 5.

I hate to break this to you, but it's not something I just conjured out of the ether. I gave you multiple scouting reports from reputable sources that said the same thing.

[DJ's left nut]

I hate to break this to you, but it's not something I just conjured out of the ether. I gave you multiple scouting reports from reputable sources that said the same thing.

So what do the scouting reports base this on?

If Mecca is to be believed, Mays rarely plays in run support. So the scouting reports are guilty of the same kind of projecting.

They see the kid's tools and believe they'll translate to being strong against the run - ultimately they can't say he is for certain.

And doesn't this also suggest that Pete Carrol is a moron? I mean afterall, run defense was clearly his team's biggest problem all season, it destroyed the Trojans' year. So why would a national championship caliber coach never consider putting such a stellar run stopper in a role where he could do more damage against the run?

Is he too stupid to figure it out? Or is it possible that he sees something in Mays that suggests he wouldn't have been the solution? Or even that he actually did have Mays playing against the run and yet USC still couldn't stop it.

Like I said - I'll believe Taylor Mays is a strong run stopper only when I see him do it on a consistent basis. I don't believe Pete Carroll is that reactive and stubborn, nor do I believe scouting reports to be the gospel.

[Chiefnj2]

You are the worst kind of dumb****. You let your dislike of other posters color your analysis. Exactly how is Mays' not stopping a triple option a complete indictment on his run defense.

You are the dumb ass you wannabe intellectual. It wasn't a triple option. The QB took the ball on a draw and ran right by Mays as Mays was standing still trying to analyze the play.

Not stopping the run on one play is not an indictment as to his overall ability, or I should say lack of ability, to play the run. Just like one lucky arm tackle isn't proof that he is good at run defense.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

So what do the scouting reports base this on?

If Mecca is to be believed, Mays rarely plays in run support. So the scouting reports are guilty of the same kind of projecting.

They see the kid's tools and believe they'll translate to being strong against the run - ultimately they can't say he is for certain.

And doesn't this also suggest that Pete Carrol is a moron? I mean afterall, run defense was clearly his team's biggest problem all season, it destroyed the Trojans' year. So why would a national championship caliber coach never consider putting such a stellar run stopper in a role where he could do more damage against the run?

Is he too stupid to figure it out? Or is it possible that he sees something in Mays that suggests he wouldn't have been the solution? Or even that he actually did have Mays playing against the run and yet USC still couldn't stop it.

Like I said - I'll believe Taylor Mays is a strong run stopper only when I see him do it on a consistent basis. I don't believe Pete Carroll is that reactive and stubborn, nor do I believe scouting reports to be the gospel.

Pete Carroll started John David Booty because he was his guy
Pete Carroll was a horrendous pro coach
Pete Carroll is only a success in college because he can recruit. He runs the same vanilla schem over and over and relies on his talent to make him look good.

You are seriously overrating Pete Carroll. You are also basing your opinion of his run support on conjecture. The scouting reports are assuming this. How do you know that? Can you really speak for what they have, or have not, seen?

I have not seen every USC game, nor am I going to claim to have done so. However, they are often on FSNMW late on Saturdays. I have caught 3-4 of their games this year, and the times that I did watch them (either on ABC or FSN) I never saw a guy who took bad angle, who had a problem with wrapping up when necessary, or a guy who lacked speed.

What more could you ask from a free safety? He helped shore up their pass defense, and he made guys like Ellison and Cary Harris look a lot better in college than they really were.

He's not playing on the DL, so you can't blame him when a guy gets to the second level, yet douchetards like NJ want to do so because they don't like Mecca. He has the Laz disease.

Furthermore, people continue to mistake the idea of liking Mays with not liking Barry. That's a serious error in judgment and its the product of people with small minds, because they can only see things as either/or. They are both great prospects, and people are talking down Mays because they are trying to talk themselves into Berry.

It's penny wise and pound foolish.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You are the dumb ass you wannabe intellectual. It wasn't a triple option. The QB took the ball on a draw and ran right by Mays as Mays was standing still trying to analyze the play.

Not stopping the run on one play is not an indictment as to his overall ability, or I should say lack of ability, to play the run. Just like one lucky arm tackle isn't proof that he is good at run defense.

Watch the play again, you stupid motherfucker. It's a zone read option play. It's not a draw, otherwise, he wouldn't have playfaked to James.

And before you say that a zone read isn't a triple option, ask Urban Meyer or Rich Rodriguez. It's a variation. They are synonymous.

[tyler360]

I am amazed at the amount of people who dont want Mays. We trot out mike brown and Mcgraw every damn week. I dont care who we take if we had the choice they would be a huge upgrade to Haileys favorite player of all time and herm jr.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

FWIW, watch more of that clip that fucktard posted earlier. At 5:50, Mays gets off a block and saves a touchdown.

At 6:20, he runs all the way across the field and pops Masoli out of bounds, saving another touchdown.

Watch the second highlight video. You see James and Masoli repeatedly break into the secondary, and Mays taking good angles that either force them back into other players, or wrapping them up.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

He, does, however, get blocked by a fucking guard at 2:45 in the second highlight clip at the goalline, therefore he sucks.

[DJ's left nut]

Pete Carroll started John David Booty because he was his guy
Pete Carroll was a horrendous pro coach
Pete Carroll is only a success in college because he can recruit. He runs the same vanilla schem over and over and relies on his talent to make him look good.

You are seriously overrating Pete Carroll. You are also basing your opinion of his run support on conjecture. The scouting reports are assuming this. How do you know that? Can you really speak for what they have, or have not, seen?

I have not seen every USC game, nor am I going to claim to have done so. However, they are often on FSNMW late on Saturdays. I have caught 3-4 of their games this year, and the times that I did watch them (either on ABC or FSN) I never saw a guy who took bad angle, who had a problem with wrapping up when necessary, or a guy who lacked speed.

What more could you ask from a free safety? He helped shore up their pass defense, and he made guys like Ellison and Cary Harris look a lot better in college than they really were.

He's not playing on the DL, so you can't blame him when a guy gets to the second level, yet douchetards like NJ want to do so because they don't like Mecca. He has the Laz disease.

Furthermore, people continue to mistake the idea of liking Mays with not liking Barry. That's a serious error in judgment and its the product of people with small minds, because they can only see things as either/or. They are both great prospects, and people are talking down Mays because they are trying to talk themselves into Berry.

It's penny wise and pound foolish.

At the same time, you seem to be mistaking the idea of not wanting to take Mays at 4 with not thinking he'll be a solid player.

I like Berry more than Mays. I see a player that's played in a better scheme for professional development. I see a player that's more athletic and has demonstrated a hitters attitude.

I'm simply far more comfortable taking Berry or McClain that high.

[chiefscafan]

Sorry I take mcclain over mays

[Mecca]

You know who ChiefNJ reminds me of...Laz.

[philfree]

It will be interesting to see how Mays does at the combine in the shuttle drills and the three cone. Obviously he's a great specimen but I have concerns about a guy like Mays' ability to change directions. He' so big that I'm not sure his size won't work against him at a point.

PhilFree:arrow:

[chiefscafan]

He'll be a workout warrior once again I'm worried bout his motivation

[Mecca]

Uh watch that video I posted in this very thread.

[philfree]

Uh watch that video I posted in this very thread.

You talkin' to me, Mecca? I saw a video posted awhile back. I'm not knocking guy I just always try and look at all possibilities. So do you think Mays will excel in those drills I mentioned?

PhilFree:arrow:

[Titty Meat]

McClain is an average ILB.

[Mecca]

The video was for the guy talking about his drive.

[philfree]

The video was for the guy talking about his drive.

I see.

PhilFree:arrow:

[Mecca]

Here just look at this post.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=6373882&postcount=145

['Hamas' Jenkins]

At the same time, you seem to be mistaking the idea of not wanting to take Mays at 4 with not thinking he'll be a solid player.

I like Berry more than Mays. I see a player that's played in a better scheme for professional development. I see a player that's more athletic and has demonstrated a hitters attitude.

I'm simply far more comfortable taking Berry or McClain that high.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I don't necessarily believe you think that. However, I do believe that douchetards like Chiefnj think that. He's just another in a long line of posters like Buster Hymen, Laz, etc, who so hate people with an opinion that he'll take the counterveiling one, even if it makes him look like a dumbass

(See the triple option comment from earlier in this thread).

FWIW, I have no problem if people view Berry as a better prospect than Mays. I think that is a very reasonable view to have. However, I do think that Mays will be a superior player, and that both are worthy of a top 5 pick. If you don't believe that, I'll respect your opinion, because at least it's informed by something other than the person who holds it (like the aforementioned fuckheads).

[BigMeatballDave]

FWIW, I have no problem if people view Berry as a better prospect than Mays. I think that is a very reasonable view to have. However, I do think that Mays will be a superior player, and that both are worthy of a top 5 pick. If you don't believe that, I'll respect your opinion, because at least it's informed by something other than the person who holds it (like the aforementioned fuckheads).Its seems Mays isn't getting quite the attention as Berry. I wonder why that is? I'd love to have either one of them. Surely Pioli can't fuck this up...

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Its seems Mays isn't getting quite the attention as Berry. I wonder why that is? I'd love to have either one of them. Surely Pioli can't fuck this up...

ROFL:doh!:ROFL:doh!:ROFL:doh!:ROFL:doh!:ROFL

[Mecca]

Its seems Mays isn't getting quite the attention as Berry. I wonder why that is? I'd love to have either one of them. Surely Pioli can't fuck this up...

You don't know our GM very well...

[Mecca]

And anyway for this idea that we'll be stuck with no one to pick there is always CJ Spiller.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

And anyway for this idea that we'll be stuck with no one to pick there is always CJ Spiller.

I thought we didn't take RB's in round one?:D Not that I would complain in his particular case. If no one else on the board at that time has the Sizzle, then Spiller it is.

[Chiefnj2]

FWIW, watch more of that clip that ****tard posted earlier. At 5:50, Mays gets off a block and saves a touchdown.

At 6:20, he runs all the way across the field and pops Masoli out of bounds, saving another touchdown.

Watch the second highlight video. You see James and Masoli repeatedly break into the secondary, and Mays taking good angles that either force them back into other players, or wrapping them up.


Yeah, that's what the Chiefs need a safety who continually makes plays against the run 35 yards downfield.

[Brock]

And anyway for this idea that we'll be stuck with no one to pick there is always CJ Spiller.

This

[chiefzilla1501]

And anyway for this idea that we'll be stuck with no one to pick there is always CJ Spiller.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but isn't Spiller the same kind of back as Charles?

[Mecca]

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but isn't Spiller the same kind of back as Charles?

He's fast that doesn't make him anything like Charles, Spiller is special.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but isn't Spiller the same kind of back as Charles?

Spiller got "Mizzle"( that's mojo with sizzle ).

[El Jefe]

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but isn't Spiller the same kind of back as Charles?

Spiller is a legit talent, outside of the realm of Charles IMO.

[chiefzilla1501]

He's fast that doesn't make him anything like Charles, Spiller is special.

I just say that because I know you take BPA, but Charles is one of the few bricks we can build upon. It'd be one thing if Spi.ller could complement Charles, but I haven't seen a lot of teams that use two speed backs to complement each other. Usually it's a speed back with a change-of-pace power back. Then again, I guess it's worked well in San Diego.

[Frankie]

I'd rather take Brandon Spikes in the 2nd rd. I just hope he lasts that long.

I'd also rather trade down to like around 10th spot and draft Taylor Mays. Berry is slightly better, but Mays is a better value pick and we'd pick up another 2nd rounder in the process and maybe a 3rd next season.

I would like that scenario. But last year it was proven that trading down with a high draft pick is very improbable.

[chiefscafan]

Spiller is great but he is almost the same as Charles which has been mentioned. We need a bigger back.

[RustShack]

I think the thing people are missing is CJ is so gifted that hes the rare Tomlinson type that can play every down for years.

[RustShack]

So in a sense hes like Charles... he can just handle a way bigger load.

[The Franchise]

Plus Spiller is a better receiver and a better returner.

[Mecca]

Spiller is not Charles, just because they are both fast does not make them the same.

Spiller is versatile and a very special player, he's a dynamic return man, outstanding lining up as a WR on top of being a top flight RB.

The guy is special you can do far worse than putting a playmaker like that on your team.

[BossChief]

I would like that scenario. But last year it was proven that trading down with a high draft pick is very improbable.

you do realize that a top five team traded out of the top five last year right?

Thou must think before thou post.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Spiller is not Charles, just because they are both fast does not make them the same.

Spiller is versatile and a very special player, he's a dynamic return man, outstanding lining up as a WR on top of being a top flight RB.

The guy is special you can do far worse than putting a playmaker like that on your team.

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv252/raisedonriots/TOOSEXY.png

He's, too sexy for the Chiefs,
too sexy for the pick,
Spiller's Sizzle makes Scott siiiiiiiick...

[El Jefe]

Spiller is not Charles, just because they are both fast does not make them the same.

Spiller is versatile and a very special player, he's a dynamic return man, outstanding lining up as a WR on top of being a top flight RB.

The guy is special you can do far worse than putting a playmaker like that on your team.

THIS

[BossChief]

Spiller is not Charles, just because they are both fast does not make them the same.

Spiller is versatile and a very special player, he's a dynamic return man, outstanding lining up as a WR on top of being a top flight RB.

The guy is special you can do far worse than putting a playmaker like that on your team.
UMMMM you just said he is nothing like Charles but then went on to point out strengths that are Charles as well.

Dynamis return man....must have missed the pittsburg game, I guess.
outstanding lining up as a wr....Charles has been too, he is just much less experienced at it. its just too bad we dont have a qb that can get him the ball deep when hes open.
top flight rb...Charles has averaged 5.4 yards per carry behind one of the nfls worst olines at 101 yards per game rushing.

Id also like to point out (and Im sure you already know this, but some dont) Charles was mainly a track guy at Texas. He didnt lift weights (as much as normal football players anyway) because it takes away from flexibility and therefore your sprinters speed. He will continue to get stronger and stronger the longer he is in the league and the more he lifts. You can see a clear difference in how he runs this year over last in that he doesnt go down on first contact this year as much as last year, that can be attributed to his strength work.

I said it right after he was drafted, this kid will develop into Priest Holmes in the next year or two.

I wouldnt be disapointed in Spiller, but I think we can fix the team more so by taking any of five or more prospects at our spot.

[RUSH]

Why would we draft Spiller in the top 5 when we have Charles? Is Spiller an upgrade? Probably, but it's not like Charles hasn't shown big play ability, running, receiving, and return skills in the limited time that he has gotten a chance. He is a playmaker. It's like drafting Okung when we already have Albert. It's totally unnecessary. We are not good enough to upgrade positions that we don't need. Just get another back to spell Charles, not pick another one in the top 5.

I would rather upgrade positions that we desperately need with great prospects. McClain and Berry fit that bill. It's not we will be reaching when picking McClain. He is going to be in the top 10 of every big board, so I don't see how picking him will be reaching for a need, or bad value. Scott Wright has already said that he will have him in his top 5. He plays ILB, but he is a special football player and a playmaker. We could desperately use his skills and leadership on this defense.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Why would we draft Spiller in the top 5 when we have Charles? Is Spiller an upgrade? Probably, but it's not like Charles hasn't shown big play ability, running, receiving, and return skills in the limited time that he has gotten a chance. He is a playmaker. It's like drafting Okung when we already have Albert. It's totally unnecessary. We are not good enough to upgrade positions that we don't need. Just get another back to spell Charles, not pick another one in the top 5.

I would rather upgrade positions that we desperately need with great prospects. McClain and Berry fit that bill. It's not we will be reaching when picking McClain. He is going to be in the top 10 of every big board, so I don't see how picking him will be reaching for a need, or bad value. Scott Wright has already said that he will have him in his top 5. He plays ILB, but he is a special football player and a playmaker. We could desperately use his skills and leadership on this defense.

The argument for Spiller is that two great backs will last longer than one, and provide a consistently powerful running game.
And, Spiller is absolutely an upgrade on special teams in the return department.
But this whole scenario is predicated upon Berry being off the board when we pick.

[El Jefe]

Why would we draft Spiller in the top 5 when we have Charles? Is Spiller an upgrade? Probably, but it's not like Charles hasn't shown big play ability, running, receiving, and return skills in the limited time that he has gotten a chance. He is a playmaker. It's like drafting Okung when we already have Albert. It's totally unnecessary. We are not good enough to upgrade positions that we don't need. Just get another back to spell Charles, not pick another one in the top 5.

I would rather upgrade positions that we desperately need with great prospects. McClain and Berry fit that bill. It's not we will be reaching when picking McClain. He is going to be in the top 10 of every big board, so I don't see how picking him will be reaching for a need, or bad value. Scott Wright has already said that he will have him in his top 5. He plays ILB, but he is a special football player and a playmaker. We could desperately use his skills and leadership on this defense.

It wasn't really a matter of anyone advocating for us to draft him at our spot, it was a scenario of "If player X, XX, and XXX arent there, would you take Spiller".

[Mecca]

If you think Charles is a great returner than you'd think Spiller is a god at it.

CJ Spiller is a rare special talent, but I'm sure we won't take him we need big guys who you never notice.

[Titty Meat]

If you think Charles is a great returner than you'd think Spiller is a god at it.

CJ Spiller is a rare special talent, but I'm sure we won't take him we need big guys who you never notice.

This.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

If we had team comprised solely of Tackles and Guards, would Chiefs Nation then be placated?

[Titty Meat]

" Don't draft Spiller he's the same as Charles".

Do people on here watch college football?

[Mecca]

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[Brock]

Spiller is great but he is almost the same as Charles which has been mentioned. We need a bigger back.

We don't need a bigger back, we need better skill position players. Spiller is exactly the kind of player this team lacks.

[Mecca]

I'm about the last person in the world to go to bat for RB's high but Spiller is something else.

You don't think the Chiefs can use a guy like this...

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And no Charles can not do what Spiller can do, Spiller has moves and natural things Charles doesn't have.

[Titty Meat]

Dude look at the juke he puts on those NC State players, Amazing.

[Tribal Warfare]

And no Charles can not do what Spiller can do, Spiller has moves and natural things Charles doesn't have.



When it comes to pure breakaway acceleration the edge would go to Charles. The problem with Jamaal is he can't run between the tackles on consistent basis due to his build and running style.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Dude look at the juke he puts on those NC State players, Amazing.

Dude makes cuts like a fuckin' Light Cycle.

He and Charles...that's just scary.

[ModSocks]

Who would be opposed to drafting Spiller?

It's kind of a tough one....we don't NEED Spiller right away, we have more pressing needs, but damn, how do you complain about a talent like that if we were to draft him?

[tyler360]

If Berry was off the board by our pick it would be very hard to pass on him because he is a very special player. But we will pick some no name dlinemen because pioli just wants fuck with us.

[notorious]

If Berry was off the board by our pick it would be very hard to pass on him because he is a very special player. But we will pick some no name dlinemen because pioli just wants **** with us.

The Pats drafted Moroney early in the 1st a few years ago, and we have nothing at RB behind Charles.

It wouldn't suprise me for a second.....

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

The Pats drafted Moroney early in the 1st a few years ago, and we have nothing at RB behind Charles.

It wouldn't suprise me for a second.....

If they fuck this up again, they deserve to be shit-canned.

[tyler360]

The Pats drafted Moroney early in the 1st a few years ago, and we have nothing at RB behind Charles.

It wouldn't suprise me for a second.....

I hope your right that they would because I wouldnt be able to live with myself if he is on the board and we pass on him for terrence cody or someone like him.

[notorious]

I hope your right that they would because I wouldnt be able to live with myself if he is on the board and we pass on him for terrence cody or someone like him.

It would make too much since, has the CP blessing, and even Mecca likes it.


3 strikes against it happening. 4 if you add Pioli into the mix.

[tyler360]

It would make too much since, has the CP blessing, and even Mecca likes it.


3 strikes against it happening. 4 if you add Pioli into the mix.

That pretty much sums up why i dont think it will ever happen. I am not getting my hopes up this year after last years whole debacled draft day

[notorious]

That pretty much sums up why i dont think it will ever happen. I am not getting my hopes up this year after last years whole debacled draft day

I should take back the Pioli as the 4th strike. I just posted a reason why he might do it since he has done it in the past.

I am contradicting myself. Taking Christmas eve off has shut down my brain. I might finally fit in here!!#!@!

[DaneMcCloud]

i think McClain is every bit as good as Maulaugauaugau coming out last year....and the dude brings the pain when he hits...always seemed like a complete player to me


i'd like him and norwood if we don't get berry....this draft is loaded with lbs for the 3-4 in the first 2 rounds, i don't know enough to know about lower round sleepers....

The bad this is that Rey went in the second

[BossChief]

I wouldn't spend a top five pick on a player that would put our best playmaker on offense on the bench.

[Brock]

Our best playmaker on offense isn't all that.

[chiefzilla1501]

That pretty much sums up why i dont think it will ever happen. I am not getting my hopes up this year after last years whole debacled draft day

I'm still holding out hope that adding Phil Emery and a brand spanking new scouting team is going to help us make smarter decisions. Pioli is going to be getting much better scouting information, that's for damn certain.

[chiefzilla1501]

Our best playmaker on offense isn't all that.

He might break 1,000 yards despite getting half the amount of carries of an average back, and he's doing it behind an offensive line that's pretty ho-hum. I'd say he's a playmaker. Right now, apart from Chambers (who probably only has 1 year of playmaker left in him at most), he's the only playmaker on offense we have.

[Brock]

You can't depend on Charles for an entire season. Chris Johnson he ain't.

[BossChief]

Our best playmaker on offense isn't all that.averaging 5.4 yards per carry and over a hundred yards per game behind this atrocious oline isnt "all that"? I think he has played very well and will only get much better with more strength work and the team improving the oline. He could average 6 per carry in a year or two if he stays healthy.

I'm still holding out hope that adding Phil Emery and a brand spanking new scouting team is going to help us make smarter decisions. Pioli is going to be getting much better scouting information, that's for damn certain.

Phil Emery isnt anything to get excited about and the Patriots didn't draft well.

NE was built in free agency and trades more than the draft.

It isnt a stretch to say Carl Peterson drafted about as well as NE.

[RustShack]

averaging 5.4 yards per carry and over a hundred yards per game behind this atrocious oline isnt "all that"? I think he has played very well and will only get much better with more strength work and the team improving the oline. He could average 6 per carry in a year or two if he stays healthy.

No, hes going to be done in a year or two because he carries it to much and takes too many hits for his size.

[BossChief]

You can't depend on Charles for an entire season. Chris Johnson he ain't.

you dont know that.

Put Chris Johnson behind our line and he might look similar to Charles and vice versa.

[Brock]

They need somebody to take some of the load off of Charles, they also need a kick and punt returner. If they ended up taking Spiller, you fill all those needs. You don't just fill the needs, you add speed and athletic ability.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

They need somebody to take some of the load off of Charles, they also need a kick and punt returner. If they ended up taking Spiller, you fill all those needs. You don't just fill the needs, you add speed and athletic ability.

And we get the Sizzle! WOOT!:clap:

[chiefzilla1501]

Phil Emery isnt anything to get excited about and the Patriots didn't draft well.

NE was built in free agency and trades more than the draft.

It isnt a stretch to say Carl Peterson drafted about as well as NE.

No and yes.

Phil Emery has a really good background. He basically led the scouting for the Falcons from 2004-2008, which brought in a lot of top-level talent including Matt Ryan, Sam Baker, Roddy White, Justin Blalock. And he was mentored by Thomas Dimitroff, who was a big part of the previous successes in New England. Emery is the guy that is basically in charge of getting all the right information about college players.

I don't know that he's anything to be excited about. But he deserves a shot to at least prove one way or the other before we decide he will make zero impact. The fact is, we have about 4-5 key players in our college scouting network that we didn't have last year, so our draft evaluation is going to be very different. Better? We'll see. Different? Yes.

[chiefzilla1501]

They need somebody to take some of the load off of Charles, they also need a kick and punt returner. If they ended up taking Spiller, you fill all those needs. You don't just fill the needs, you add speed and athletic ability.

They definitely need another RB.

But if Charles is a playmaker, which I think he is, then you can get the same kind of effect from a power back that you can find later in the draft. And then you can stick Charles in as a Kick Returner, where he was consistently getting around the 30 or better and took one to the house.

I agree that Spiller is probably better than Charles and you have to get playmakers where you can get it. I just don't know how I feel about having a team of crap and then having two playmakers playing the same position playing the same exact role.

[tyler360]

They definitely need another RB.

But if Charles is a playmaker, which I think he is, then you can get the same kind of effect from a power back that you can find later in the draft. And then you can stick Charles in as a Kick Returner, where he was consistently getting around the 30 or better and took one to the house.

I agree that Spiller is probably better than Charles and you have to get playmakers where you can get it. I just don't know how I feel about having a team of crap and then having two playmakers playing the same position playing the same exact role.

Spiller is so versitile that he could fill many needs for us as kick and punt return, runningback, he can split out and be a receiver too. Having him and charles on the field at the same time when either of them can go the distance anywhere on the field would give d coordinators headaches. Plus it means we wont have to watch matt cassel throw it as much hopefully

[Titty Meat]

You don't need Phil Emery to see Spiller is a special player.

[milkman]

Your not as high on Berry as I am......... McClain isnt a bag of shit either. High for an ILB to be taken, but so is safety.


Either or, the team has improved. That is the goal.

The way this league has evolved, the way the rules have changed the way the game is played, the safety position which was a lower priority position in the past, has taken on far greatter importance, and become a far more impactful position.

Taking a saety in the top 5 in the past would have boredred on moronic.

Today, not so much.

[RustShack]

Spiller and Charles would be an insane duo. Both can be used in returning. When ones in the other can take a breather, if they don't need one they can be lined up at receiver or we can just line both in the backfield at once

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The less you can engage receivers at the line, the more important a safety is.

[RustShack]

I think we are best off with Page and Mays in the secondary next year. Our defense needs a freakish physical presence just laying people out more than it needs a FS who plays like a CB. Besides Mays might not have the INT's, but he breaks up a lot more passes and is so fast he wont get beat deep.

Page and Mays or Berry and Brown?

[milkman]

You ever watch the kid throw the football?

Maybe he'll never be able to make the adjustment to the speed/defenses in the NFL.

But he's easily the most accurate thrower to come out of the draft any many years. When it comes to putting a football where he wants it, he's absolutely uncanny.

He's not without his risks, injury and a college offense are obvious. But when I'm looking at QBs, I look for leaders and accurate passers. Bradford has both of those covered in spades.

Sam Bradford is essentially a more accurate Matt Cassel.
'
I sure as hell am not spending a top 5 pick on Sam Cassel.