Props To Haley And His O Line Coaches

[philfree]

From the first game of the season to last the Chiefs O line play has improved an incredible amount.

PhilFree:arrow:

[kstater]

I don't know what you're talking about, this team has not improved at all in any facet of the game from last year to this.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yes. Thank you for continuing to give meaningful reps to Ndukwe and Mike Goff. Without them, we were sunk.

[philfree]

Yes. Thank you for continuing to give meaningful reps to Ndukwe and Mike Goff. Without them, we were sunk.



It's all part of the process:D

PhilFree:arrow:

[Discuss Thrower]

Cue the torrent of "only cuz injuries forced different lineups!!1" posts.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Cue the torrent of "only cuz injuries forced different lineups!!1" posts.

Shame that it's true.

Wade Smith and Barry Richardson have shown they are one of the 5 best OL on the team, yet they only got to play because of injury. Luckily, Goff's was season ending and Smith was locked into a spot he deserved from the start.

Kinda like Charles being a healthy scratch for a game, and sitting behind Captain Twitter for 7 others.

[EyePod]

It also helps adding a back like Jamaal Charles. The announcers said it best when they described him as "making holes for himself even when there wasn't one there."

[FAX]

You're quite right, Mr. philfree. They did improve. But, they're still a long way from where they need to be.

So instead of props, I'm giving them oars. Here's your oars, Todd Haley and your o-line coaches.

FAX

[Easy 6]

I agree Phil, they've looked far more competent these last 4-5 weeks.

As far as the run game, i've come to the conclusion that they werent nearly as bad as advertised early on... the majority of the problem was Larry IMO, because Charles stepped right in & produced from the get-go.

And the pass pro improved dramatically simply by subtracting Goff... Haley really gave me a case of the ass by not canning him sooner.

[TheGuardian]

Shame that it's true.

Wade Smith and Barry Richardson have shown they are one of the 5 best OL on the team, yet they only got to play because of injury. Luckily, Goff's was season ending and Smith was locked into a spot he deserved from the start.

Kinda like Charles being a healthy scratch for a game, and sitting behind Captain Twitter for 7 others.

And this isn't unusual on any other team either. Money and experience dictate a lot. But the fact is, we ended up with the best players on the field. I don't care how, it happened.

[philfree]

Cue the torrent of "only cuz injuries forced different lineups!!1" posts.

I think alot of it was the players getting the blocking scheme down more then just a personnel thing. Others will know better I'm sure.

PhilFree:arrow:

[Rain Man]

Wade Smith was definitely one of our top five, and I'm glad to see him get playing time at the end of the year.

The real difference was Charles, though. He made everyone look better. I was completely wrong in my loyalty to LJ at the beginning of the season. LJ made everyone around him look worse, and Charles was the opposite. Plus, Charles can block and catch, too. It makes me wonder how he didn't win the starting job outright.

[FAX]

It's funny how some people see the glass half-empty, no matter what the circumstances.

I see Charles' ascent as being a positive. He's obviously responded positively to the coaches and fits the offensive scheme very well. When given the opportunity, he responded ... and that's a good thing. You can say that Haley should have been starting him from the beginning, sure. But, on the other hand, you can also say that, overall, he was handled very well ... the results certainly support that argument.

FAX

['Hamas' Jenkins]

It makes me wonder how he didn't win the starting job outright.

For the same reason why the best 5 OL didn't and the worst of our WR got the majority of targets.

Our talent evaluation sucks.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

It's funny how some people see the glass half-empty, no matter what the circumstances.

I see Charles' ascent as being a positive. He's obviously responded positively to the coaches and fits the offensive scheme very well. When given the opportunity, he responded ... and that's a good thing. You can say that Haley should have been starting him from the beginning, sure. But, on the other hand, you can also say that, overall, he was handled very well ... the results certainly support that argument.

FAX

No one is claiming that Charles' ascent isn't a positive. What is mind boggling is why in the hell someone with so much ability would be buried on the depth chart? That doesn't bode well for the future.

[Valiant]

From the first game of the season to last the Chiefs O line play has improved an incredible amount.

PhilFree:arrow:

No not really, they still suck really really bad.. Charles was just busting threw tackles when Denver actually tried to tackle him.. They might have improved a little, basically like the top of the pile of shit now..

Do not let this game fool you, they still need to improve lightyears.. Charles made many of his own holes..

[Reerun_KC]

For the same reason why the best 5 OL didn't and the worst of our WR got the majority of targets.

Our talent evaluation sucks.

These guys are going to give you a stroke... Pioli and Haley will be the death of you yet...

ROFL

[philfree]

It's funny how some people see the glass half-empty, no matter what the circumstances.

I see Charles' ascent as being a positive. He's obviously responded positively to the coaches and fits the offensive scheme very well. When given the opportunity, he responded ... and that's a good thing. You can say that Haley should have been starting him from the beginning, sure. But, on the other hand, you can also say that, overall, he was handled very well ... the results certainly support that argument.

FAX

I don't think it was done as a motivational ploy by Haley but when he sat Charles that one week I think it lite a fire under him. I read something that me think that. It was probably on kcchiefs.com or from the star.

PhilFree:arrow:

[TheGuardian]

No one is claiming that Charles' ascent isn't a positive. What is mind boggling is why in the hell someone with so much ability would be buried on the depth chart? That doesn't bode well for the future.

Because early in the season he was putting the ball on the ground about every other play?

How are you going to start a guy you don't feel confident can protect the ball very well? Shit man, Marty would have cut his ass in preseason.

[DeezNutz]

It's funny how some people see the glass half-empty, no matter what the circumstances.

I see Charles' ascent as being a positive. He's obviously responded positively to the coaches and fits the offensive scheme very well. When given the opportunity, he responded ... and that's a good thing. You can say that Haley should have been starting him from the beginning, sure. But, on the other hand, you can also say that, overall, he was handled very well ... the results certainly support that argument.

FAX

I think you have to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist to spin the Charles emergence as a positive for the coaching staff, specifically.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he sees the field in a meaningful way unless LJ commits professional suicide.

How can we not question Haley's ability to evaluate talent?

To think otherwise, I need to hear a cogent argument for how Haley developed Charles.

[FAX]

No one is claiming that Charles' ascent isn't a positive. What is mind boggling is why in the hell someone with so much ability would be buried on the depth chart? That doesn't bode well for the future.

I understand the argument. Here's the thing, though ...

We don't know whether or not Charles was ready earlier in the season. If you notice, he's not the brightest bulb in the Christmas tree. Maybe he had some trouble learning the playbook. Or, perhaps his fumbling problem caused concern early in the year. Or, maybe his shoulder issue led the coaches to protect him with limited minutes.

The point is that we don't know. I say that, instead of viewing his success as being a negative against Haley we consider the possibility that the staff knew what they were doing with him. Again, the bottom line supports that hypothesis.

FAX

[DeezNutz]

I understand the argument. Here's the thing, though ...

We don't know whether or not Charles was ready earlier in the season. If you notice, he's not the brightest bulb in the Christmas tree. Maybe he had some trouble learning the playbook. Or, perhaps his fumbling problem caused concern early in the year. Or, maybe his shoulder issue led the coaches to protect him with limited minutes.

The point is that we don't know. I say that, instead of viewing his success as being a negative against Haley we consider the possibility that the staff knew what they were doing with him. Again, the bottom line supports that hypothesis.

FAX

Did Jared Allen's emergence confirm CP's ability to evaluate talent?

[TheGuardian]

I tell you what Hamas and Mecca would find a pile of shit in a gold mine and complain about it the whole time.

[FAX]

I think you have to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist to spin the Charles emergence as a positive for the coaching staff, specifically.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he sees the field in a meaningful way unless LJ commits professional suicide.

How can we not question Haley's ability to evaluate talent?

To think otherwise, I need to hear a cogent argument for how Haley developed Charles.

I'm not saying that Haley's hand wasn't forced. I think it was.

That doesn't, however, take away from Charles' accomplishments ... and the fact the only coaching staff developing him was our coaching staff. Like the Norwegians say; "If it walks like a walrus and honks like a walrus, it's probably not a pair of used panties."

FAX

[OnTheWarpath15]

Because early in the season he was putting the ball on the ground about every other play?

How are you going to start a guy you don't feel confident can protect the ball very well? Shit man, Marty would have cut his ass in preseason.

BULLSHIT.

He fumbled precisely ONE TIME in the first 11 weeks of the season.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jamaalcharles/gamelogs?id=CHA561428

[FAX]

Did Jared Allen's emergence confirm CP's ability to evaluate talent?

Oh, come on, now.

We both know that Jared Allen was an utter aberration. Heck, he was drafted as a long snapper. Carl was more surprised than anyone when he started sacking quarterbacks.

As I've said, there were a variety of reasons why Charles might not have moved up to number one on the depth chart while LJ was still here. It doesn't necessarily point to Haley's inability to recognize a broken tackle or a 50 yard rushing touchdown when he sees one.

FAX

[TheGuardian]

BULLSHIT.

He fumbled precisely ONE TIME in the first 11 weeks of the season.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jamaalcharles/gamelogs?id=CHA561428

Charles had some timely fumbles early on. Everyone remembers them.

[dirk digler]

No one is claiming that Charles' ascent isn't a positive. What is mind boggling is why in the hell someone with so much ability would be buried on the depth chart? That doesn't bode well for the future.

Why did the person who drafted him bury him? He only got 67 carries last year

[TheGuardian]

Why did the person who drafted him bury him? He only got 67 carries last year

Oh snap!

Charles has had some fumbling problems AND he was sitting behind a two time pro bowl back that people still thought had "it". The fact is, on EVERY TEAM in the NFL, EVERY FUCKING TEAM, vets that have pro bowl experience get the benefit of the doubt. That's just how it is. I think some people just want to find ANYTHING to bitch about.

[stevieray]

"I would've double bagged it."

...most on this board didn't even know if Charles was big enough to carry the full load...it
is a pleasant suprise that is being twisted against Haley for personal motive.

[DeezNutz]

Oh, come on, now.

We both know that Jared Allen was an utter aberration. Heck, he was drafted as a long snapper. Carl was more surprised than anyone when he started sacking quarterbacks.

As I've said, there were a variety of reasons why Charles might not have moved up to number one on the depth chart while LJ was still here. It doesn't necessarily point to Haley's inability to recognize a broken tackle or a 50 yard rushing touchdown when he sees one.

FAX

But that's my point. I think this staff somewhat stumbled into the Charles scenario.

They have shown a resistance to many things Herm/CP, and Charles is in step with this view. He can't be good b/c the previous regime acquired him.

Now, many have compared Charles to the emergence of Priest. Fair point, but also not accurate. First, Priest was an UDFA, not a day one pick, so it's not as surprising that he would be a bit of a surprise (word choice FTMFW).

Also, Grandpa and Al had a bit of a longer resume than Haley. Right now, the latter needs to prove he knows what he's doing. Thus far, color me completely unconvinced.

[DeezNutz]

"I would've double bagged it."

...most on this board didn't even know if Charles was big enough to carry the full load...it
is a pleasant suprise that is being twisted against Haley for personal motive.

What's "personal" about this criticism?

[KCUnited]

The Chiefs had nothing to play for. All these guys had their vacation plans set before the game even started, yet the Chiefs came out and fought hard in all 3 phases of the game for 4 complete quarters of football in a place they haven't won in a decade. Yes, props indeed.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Charles had some timely fumbles early on. Everyone remembers them.

Are you shitting me?

You're fucking delusional. Talk about someone who won't admit he's wrong.

It's right there in print on NFL.com for all to see.

But go ahead, dispute it.

[TheGuardian]

The Chiefs had nothing to play for. All these guys had their vacation plans set before the game even started, yet the Chiefs came out and fought hard in all 3 phases of the game for 4 complete quarters of football in a place they haven't won in a decade. Yes, props indeed.

Bullshit. This team hasn't improved in ANY facet, has quit on their coach and was on the verge of a walkout! Haley is a fucking moron and only lucked into everything. /sarcasm

[the Talking Can]

the improvement of our ol - individually and as a unit - from the first game to the last is staggering....


of course our coaches deserve credit....

[TheGuardian]

Are you shitting me?

You're ****ing delusional. Talk about someone who won't admit he's wrong.

It's right there in print on NFL.com for all to see.

But go ahead, dispute it.

I don't care what your stat sheet says. Charles has had a penchant for putting the ball on the ground. This is fairly well known. Second, he didn't get any carries under Herm either. Why the F not? LJ was just as shitty last year.

I already explained the reason why. A vet with pro bowl experience is going to be given the benefit of the doubt by pretty much EVERY coach. There was a time when LJ was better than Priest too, and until Priest got hurt LJ saw limited carries.

[FAX]

But that's my point. I think this staff somewhat stumbled into the Charles scenario.

They have shown a resistance to many things Herm/CP, and Charles is in step with this view. He can't be good b/c the previous regime acquired him.

Now, many have compared Charles to the emergence of Priest. Fair point, but also not accurate. First, Priest was an UDFA, not a day one pick, so it's not as surprising that he would be a bit of a surprise (word choice FTMFW).

Also, Grandpa and Al had a bit of a longer resume than Haley. Right now, the latter needs to prove he knows what he's doing. Thus far, color me completely unconvinced.

There's probably some truth to the notion that Haley and company were skeptical when it came to the quality of most of our players. I think that's probably a pretty normal viewpoint when you walk into a situation like ours, though. I mean, the suck on this team was extreme. My take is that the staff needed to see certain things in practice and on the field before they could know what they had in any particular player. That's reasonable, I think.

As for comparing Charles to Priest, I don't really see the point. I've never compared them and, frankly, consider such a comparison to be premature at best. Besides, they're running behind two entirely different lines ... not to mention working in two entirely different offensive schemes.

You're right about Haley's background, though. As a rookie HC, he has a lot to learn. He's made mistakes this year, to be sure. Still, I think he's the kind of guy who will admit them, learn from them, and improve as a result.

Honestly, I don't really understand all the Haley hate. The guy was dealt a really bad hand and he's played it to the best of his ability. As I've said before, I think we should give him another year before we start calling for his head.

FAX

[Pitt Gorilla]

The Chiefs had nothing to play for. All these guys had their vacation plans set before the game even started, yet the Chiefs came out and fought hard in all 3 phases of the game for 4 complete quarters of football in a place they haven't won in a decade. Yes, props indeed.That's a pretty good argument. Most people guessed they would mail this game in and they didn't. That alone is a very positive outcome.

[FAX]

Are you shitting me?

You're ****ing delusional. Talk about someone who won't admit he's wrong.

It's right there in print on NFL.com for all to see.

But go ahead, dispute it.

Actually, I think he's had two this year ... although I haven't seen the stats.

He also laid it on the ground a couple of times last year ... with far fewer carries. Honestly, Charles has had a bit of a reputation as a fumbler, as I recall.

FAX

[TheGuardian]

Actually, I think he's had two this year ... although I haven't seen the stats.

He also laid it on the ground a couple of times last year ... with far fewer carries. Honestly, Charles has had a bit of a reputation as a fumbler, as I recall.

FAX

Yup. Even at Texas.

[dirk digler]

"I would've double bagged it."

...most on this board didn't even know if Charles was big enough to carry the full load...it
is a pleasant suprise that is being twisted against Haley for personal motive.

I somewhat agree considering they ignore the fact that Herm buried Charles as well.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I don't care what your stat sheet says.

No reason to read any further.

Hard to take someone seriously when they dispute the league's official statistics - especially for no other reason than because they got called out and have a case of red-ass.

[DeezNutz]

I somewhat agree considering they ignore the fact that Herm buried Charles as well.

Well, Herm has to get credit for...you know...drafting him in the first place. And the kid was a true n00b.

But, it's a fair point to say that he was perhaps under-used.

[TheGuardian]

I somewhat agree considering they ignore the fact that Herm buried Charles as well.

Priest sat behind several backs he was better than. From Texas to Baltimore.

Romo sat behind Bledsoe and Brady too.

I flat out don't ****ing buy the "our staff can't identify the best players". It's just more bitching material for some mother ****ers here.

[FAX]

Well, you Haley haters are in the sh*t, now.

I just described these conversations to the beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX. She said, and I quote; "Anyone who doesn't like Haley can kiss a monkey's butt."

FAX

[keg in kc]

Good players not getting a shot until a more veteran player is taken out of the equation happens all the time in the NFL. The Chiefs don't have any kind of monopoly on that.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Actually, I think he's had two this year ... although I haven't seen the stats.

He also laid it on the ground a couple of times last year ... with far fewer carries. Honestly, Charles has had a bit of a reputation as a fumbler, as I recall.

FAX

He can have all the reputation you want, it doesn't make it fact.

Mr "I don't care about the facts" made a claim that Charles wasn't getting playing time early because of fumbles - and it's absolutely, positively not true.

1 fumble in the first 11 weeks, and 4 for the season - 3 lost.

[TheGuardian]

He can have all the reputation you want, it doesn't make it fact.

Mr "I don't care about the facts" made a claim that Charles wasn't getting playing time early because of fumbles - and it's absolutely, positively not true.

1 fumble in the first 11 weeks, and 4 for the season - 3 lost.

Preseason too?

[DeezNutz]

Well, you Haley haters are in the sh*t, now.

I just described these conversations to the beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX. She said, and I quote; "Anyone who doesn't like Haley can kiss a monkey's butt."

FAX

The Haley "hate" is pretty easy to explain.

He's a terrible game-day coach. Abysmal, in fact.

When (if) he improves in this respect, I will no longer "hate" him.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Oh, and Charles, the chronic fumbler, had all of TWO in 2008.

6 for his 2 year career.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jamaalcharles/gamelogs?id=CHA561428&season=2008

[OnTheWarpath15]

Preseason too?

ROFL

You're desperate now, aren't you?

[dirk digler]

Well, Herm has to get credit for...you know...drafting him in the first place. And the kid was a true n00b.

But, it's a fair point to say that he was perhaps under-used.

That is why I don't get why people are criticizing Haley for this. Herm drafted him and then stuck him as the 3rd RB on the depth chart for a while.

He ended up getting 67 carries even when LJ missed 3 games last year

[TheGuardian]

ROFL

You're desperate now, aren't you?

You don't think a guys play in preseason determines why he's where he is on the depth chart?

Charles has had a bit of trouble holding onto the ball.

[FAX]

He can have all the reputation you want, it doesn't make it fact.

Mr "I don't care about the facts" made a claim that Charles wasn't getting playing time early because of fumbles - and it's absolutely, positively not true.

1 fumble in the first 11 weeks, and 4 for the season - 3 lost.

Again, I haven't seen the stats. But ... and this is an important but in respect to this debate ... lots and lots of players develop a "reputation" for one thing or another. Deserved or not, it happens.

Honestly, I remember Charles being labeled by some people as having a fumbling problem when he came out. Now, whether it's true or not, is irrelevant. Unless or until he changes that opinion by virtue of his play, it's there.

Wasn't it Charles Haley was speaking to in warmups before one of our early games with words to the effect, "If you can't hang onto it, you can't carry my football."? If so, it indicates that Haley (and, likely, others) believed ball security to be a concern when it came to Charles. Ergo and forthwith and therefore, Charles might not have gotten more touches early in the year due to that concern. I rest my case.

FAX

[DeezNutz]

That is why I don't get why people are criticizing Haley for this. Herm drafted him and then stuck him as the 3rd RB on the depth chart for a while.

He ended up getting 67 carries even when LJ missed 3 games last year

Easy: 4.5 > 2.7

And this is coming from someone who was absolutely NOT an LJ fan.

[Demonpenz]

they like who they are blocking for now

[FAX]

The Haley "hate" is pretty easy to explain.

He's a terrible game-day coach. Abysmal, in fact.

When (if) he improves in this respect, I will no longer "hate" him.

I am of the opinion that "game day expertise" comes with experience. Frankly, I see no other way to develop such expertise. There's a lot of crap coming at you in a big damn hurry when you're an NFL HC. It takes practice and experience to get it all under your control.

So, I chalk that up to his rookienessship. Easily cured after some more games. Haley is not an unintelligent person.

FAX

[dirk digler]

Easy: 4.5 > 2.7

And this is coming from someone who was absolutely NOT an LJ fan.

So if he averaged 4.5 last year why couldn't he do it this year?

The coaching staff looked at the tape and saw LJ had a pretty good year so what is the criticism again?

[FAX]

Oh, and Charles, the chronic fumbler, had all of TWO in 2008.

6 for his 2 year career.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jamaalcharles/gamelogs?id=CHA561428&season=2008

2 in how many carries in 2008, though, Mr. OnTheWarpath58.

That makes a difference.

FAX

[TheGuardian]

The Haley "hate" is pretty easy to explain.

He's a terrible game-day coach. Abysmal, in fact.

When (if) he improves in this respect, I will no longer "hate" him.

Bullshit. Some of you will always find something to bitch about, and Haley will be one of those things.

The fact is, he got rave reviews for his offensive play calling in the post season for the Cards. Why? Because he had players that could execute. He doesn't here. You can call the best play in the history of fucking football every play but if you don't have players that can execute it, the plays will fail. This is a fact. Some don't understand this.

[OnTheWarpath15]

You don't think a guys play in preseason determines why he's where he is on the depth chart?

Charles has had a bit of trouble holding onto the ball.

FWIW, he fumbled once in PS.

Quit acting like fumbles were the reason he wasn't the starter.

It wasn't.

You're really reaching here. Then again, getting called out and proven wrong brings out the worst in some people.

Because early in the season he was putting the ball on the ground about every other play?

Or, just once in the first 11 weeks.

Whoops.

[DeezNutz]

Bullshit. Some of you will always find something to bitch about, and Haley will be one of those things.

The fact is, he got rave reviews for his offensive play calling in the post season for the Cards. Why? Because he had players that could execute. He doesn't here. You can call the best play in the history of ****ing football every play but if you don't have players that can execute it, the plays will fail. This is a fact. Some don't understand this.

You're talking about him as an OC and I'm evaluating him as a HC.

The dude was terrible. Now, will he improve with less on his plate? Maybe, and we sure as hell better hope.

If he stays status quo, he's bad enough at managing a game to prevent a great team from accomplishing the goal.

[dirk digler]

Also what is funny is that LJ missed 3 games in 08 so Charles got carries of 3 and 5 and then broke out against Tampa and got 18 carries for 106 yds. Then he went back on the bench and got 3 carries the next week.

So who buried who again?

[dirk digler]

FWIW, he fumbled once in PS.

Quit acting like fumbles were the reason he wasn't the starter.

It wasn't.

You're really reaching here. Then again, getting called out and proven wrong brings out the worst in some people.



Or, just once in the first 11 weeks.

Whoops.

So why do you think Herm and Haley both buried Charles?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Also what is funny is that LJ missed 3 games in 08 so Charles got carries of 3 and 5 and then broke out against Tampa and got 18 carries for 106 yds. Then he went back on the bench and got 3 carries the next week.

So who buried who again?

So, because Herm was a fucking retard, that excuses Haley for making the same mistake?

[OnTheWarpath15]

So why do you think Herm and Haley both buried Charles?

Because they are both shitty HC's?

I can't wait to see the response to this.

[FAX]

Ah ... maybe this is where the whole fumbling reputation came from ... lifted with light fingers from that Wiki place ...

With the 2007 Texas Longhorn football team, Charles rushed for over 1,400 yards, with an average of more than six yards per carry. Early in the season, Mack Brown and Greg Davis hinted that Jamaal Charles could face less playing time as a result of his fumbling problems.[6] Charles says that he feels a deep remorse over his fumbles and feels that he is the biggest reason the team lost to the Oklahoma Sooners in the 2007 Red River Shootout. Texas running backs coach Ken Rucker and former Longhorn running back Earl Campbell have both worked with Charles on his ball handling. Greg Davis said he wants to get the ball to Charles "in space", on pitches and passes, instead of in heavy traffic up the center.[7]

FAX

[DeezNutz]

So why do you think Herm and Haley both buried Charles?

4.5 > 2.7

And $$$ that was given by the current GM, who obviously had a major say in how things were run.

[dirk digler]

So, because Herm was a fucking retard, that excuses Haley for making the same mistake?

Because they are both shitty HC's?

I can't wait to see the response to this.

The Chiefs were up 11 in the 4th quarter and Charles fumbled on the Chiefs end and we ended up losing in OT. TB scored on the next play sparking their comeback.

[dirk digler]

4.5 > 2.7

And $$$ that was given by the current GM, who obviously had a major say in how things were run.

Once again why didn't he get carries when LJ was out?

Personally I think both regimes thought he had fumbling issues and also durability issues.

[DeezNutz]

Once again why didn't he get carries when LJ was out?

Personally I think both regimes thought he had fumbling issues and also durability issues.

If they thought this, it was pretty stupid of them to draft him at the top of round 3.

[dirk digler]

If they thought this, it was pretty stupid of them to draft him at the top of round 3.

Well obviously he had fumbling issues if you read what Fax posted. I am sure they thought he would get limited touches and not be an every down type of back.

[DeezNutz]

Well obviously he had fumbling issues if you read what Fax posted. I am sure they thought he would get limited touches and not be an every down type of back.

Well, the honest truth is that if anyone saw him as he is now, he would have been a round 1 pick.

But the question is, why weren't the signs more obvious once you acquired the winning lottery ticket?

[FAX]

If they thought this, it was pretty stupid of them to draft him at the top of round 3.

Well, with few exceptions, you can't really expect the Chiefs to draft well ... at least that's been the case for the last 20 years, or so.

Again, I think we should be happy that Charles has developed into a solid, and perhaps elite, running back. At this point, it makes more sense to applaud his efforts (and those of his coaches where he's concerned) than it does to tear everybody down.

I may have missed it, but I haven't read a single post congratulating Haley on calling plays that get Charles into the second level where he is extremely dangerous. Not one post. I guess those plays were called in by Shanahan over the phone?

FAX

[dirk digler]

Well, the honest truth is that if anyone saw him as he is now, he would have been a round 1 pick.

But the question is, why weren't the signs more obvious once you acquired the winning lottery ticket?

That is a good question. Alot of players fall into that category once they get an opportunity.

[FAX]

Well, the honest truth is that if anyone saw him as he is now, he would have been a round 1 pick.

But the question is, why weren't the signs more obvious once you acquired the winning lottery ticket?

The league is rife with examples of players who exceed realistic expectations. Heck, we've had bunches of those kinds of guys on the Chiefs.

Now we have fans who are complaining that we didn't exceed realistic expectations sooner? That's kind of crazy talk, when you think about it.

FAX

['Hamas' Jenkins]

[quote=FAX;6405679]I understand the argument. Here's the thing, though ...

We don't know whether or not Charles was ready earlier in the season. If you notice, he's not the brightest bulb in the Christmas tree. M/quote]

He's a fucking running back. The same position played by Edgerrin James, Frank Gore, Clinton Portis, Cedric Benson, et. al. None of whom are geniuses.

It's the easiest position to come in and produce as a rookie for a reason, and if he were so dumb, then why was he taking meaningful snaps in 3rd down situations where he has to determine who to pick up on the blitz?

[Easy 6]

I may have missed it, but I haven't read a single post congratulating Haley on calling plays that get Charles into the second level where he is extremely dangerous. Not one post. I guess those plays were called in by Shanahan over the phone?

FAX

Todays plays were randomly chosen by the Matrix & Agent Smith.

Haley shouldnt get any credit at all...

[TinyEvel]

Well, if it's worth anything there were NO sacks on Cassel today. He was hurried some, though.

[FAX]

[quote=FAX;6405679]I understand the argument. Here's the thing, though ...

We don't know whether or not Charles was ready earlier in the season. If you notice, he's not the brightest bulb in the Christmas tree. M/quote]

He's a ****ing running back. The same position played by Edgerrin James, Frank Gore, Clinton Portis, Cedric Benson, et. al. None of whom are geniuses.

It's the easiest position to come in and produce as a rookie for a reason, and if he were so dumb, then why was he taking meaningful snaps in 3rd down situations where he has to determine who to pick up on the blitz?

I hesitate to reply to you when you resort to asterisk talk, Mr. 'Hamas' Jenkins and would prefer you reserve such unbecoming keystrokes for other posters.

Nevertheless, here's your answer ... the question of his ability (or lack, thereof) to learn the playbook was one of several possible reasons I gave as to why Haley and his staff might have elected not to start Charles earlier in the year.

It is, however, a legitimate possibility. Playing the position of running back in the NFL is not so simple as you make it out. The running back is required to understand blitz packages, passing routes, and blocking assignments (to name only a few responsibilities) that, in even the most simplistic of offenses, can be complex.

Not to mention that, in our particular case, we changed the entire offensive scheme somewhere between pre-season and game one. It is certainly possible that, based on Charles' lack of NFL experience, it took him a little time to comprehend what was required of the position to the point that he could execute without thinking ... a necessary attribute for a running back in the league.

FAX

[DaneMcCloud]

From the first game of the season to last the Chiefs O line play has improved an incredible amount.

PhilFree:arrow:

IF the Chiefs had stuck with their opening day roster of Albert, Waters, Niswanger, Goof and Nsukwe and improved, I'd concede the point.

But the fact of the matter is far different.

Albert is clearly the Chiefs best left tackle.

Waters is the Chiefs third best left guard behind Smith & Alleman.

Niswanger doesn't belong in the NFL. Smith is a MUCH better center.

Goof is a fucking joke. Wade Smith (who coincidentally, started at right guard last year for the final nine games) is the best right guard on the roster, followed by Allemen, Nsukwe & Goof.

O'Callaghan is the third best right tackle on the squad behind Richardson and Wade Smith.

The Chiefs were forced into playing Smith due to injury and Richardson because O'Callaghan was injured. Nsukwe was a complete and utter failure at right tackle.

This line wasn't consistent all year due to the fact that week in and week out, the best players were often sitting on the bench.

The talent evaluation, whether it be Bill Muir or Todd Haley. has been pitiful to say the least.

The "improvement" you speak of came because of injury, not because of coaching or continuity.

[DeezNutz]

Now we have fans who are complaining that we didn't exceed realistic expectations sooner? That's kind of crazy talk, when you think about it.

FAX

No, I'm not saying that at all.

I want evidence that Charles was developing under our current staff, not just deactivated because they didn't recognize his potential, when LJ was clearly ineffective.

[DaneMcCloud]

[quote='Hamas' Jenkins;6406160]

I hesitate to reply to you when you resort to asterisk talk, Mr. 'Hamas' Jenkins and would prefer you reserve such unbecoming keystrokes for other posters.

Nevertheless, here's your answer ... the question of his ability (or lack, thereof) to learn the playbook was one of several possible reasons I gave as to why Haley and his staff might have elected not to start Charles earlier in the year.

It is, however, a legitimate possibility. Playing the position of running back in the NFL is not so simple as you make it out. The running back is required to understand blitz packages, passing routes, and blocking assignments (to name only a few responsibilities) that, in even the most simplistic of offenses, can be complex.

Not to mention that, in our particular case, we changed the entire offensive scheme somewhere between pre-season and game one. It is certainly possible that, based on Charles' lack of NFL experience, it took him a little time to comprehend what was required of the position to the point that he could execute without thinking ... a necessary attribute for a running back in the league.

FAX

There are two ways to look at Jamaal Charles:

1. Talented back that was buried on the bench.

2. Talented back that as a third round draft choice, needed a season and a half before claiming the starting job.

Either way, he's the undisputed starter going into 2010 and for that reason alone, it doesn't matter if if was number one or number two.

[ChiefsCountry]

[quote=FAX;6406255]

There are two ways to look at Jamaal Charles:

1. Talented back that was buried on the bench.

2. Talented back that as a third round draft choice, needed a season and a half before claiming the starting job.

Either way, he's the undisputed starter going into 2010 and for that reason alone, it doesn't matter if if was number one or number two.

Don't forget that Charles left Texas a year early.

[philfree]

IF the Chiefs had stuck with their opening day roster of Albert, Waters, Niswanger, Goof and Nsukwe and improved, I'd concede the point.

But the fact of the matter is far different.

Albert is clearly the Chiefs best left tackle.

Waters is the Chiefs third best left guard behind Smith & Alleman.

Niswanger doesn't belong in the NFL. Smith is a MUCH better center.

Goof is a ****ing joke. Wade Smith (who coincidentally, started at right guard last year for the final nine games) is the best right guard on the roster, followed by Allemen, Nsukwe & Goof.

O'Callaghan is the third best right tackle on the squad behind Richardson and Wade Smith.

The Chiefs were forced into playing Smith due to injury and Richardson because O'Callaghan was injured. Nsukwe was a complete and utter failure at right tackle.

This line wasn't consistent all year due to the fact that week in and week out, the best players were often sitting on the bench.

The talent evaluation, whether it be Bill Muir or Todd Haley. has been pitiful to say the least.

The "improvement" you speak of came because of injury, not because of coaching or continuity.

That's a nice post. It's only your opinion though and I disagree with the your closing statement. I think it was more then just Haley and staff just getting lucky because injuries forced their hand. And also I'm not sure all your player all your evaluations are accurate. I respect your evaluations though I'm just not sure they are all correct.


PhilFree:arrow:

[DaneMcCloud]

Don't forget that Charles left Texas a year early.

Another fine point.

I'm just happy that he's a Chief because I think the guy is special. He'll be a major component of the Chiefs offense for years to come.

I haven't been this excited about a Chiefs running back in well, forever! He's younger than Priest, faster than Priest, yet has the same type of game-changing ability, without the deep record of injury.

With an average to above average center and improved play at left guard and right tackle, the guy could seriously challenge for 2,000 yards next year.