Firing Chan Gailey at the beginning of the season was the right move

[cdcox]

Obviously Chan Gailey and Todd Haley do not see eye to eye on offensive philosophy, terminology or anything else. Chan was going to get replaced at the end of the season regardless of performance, because Haley is an offensive guy and he's not going to keep a coordinator that doesn't think like he does.

So he was faced with two choices: firing Chan at the beginning of the season or at the end of the season. I think the beginning of the season was the right move for the following reason:

The OL got a year under their belts in the new (or similar) system. We evaluated at least 10 OL and by the end of the season had some guys that were at least acceptable in every position except center. And maybe most importantly, Brandon Albert learned the new scheme. He played like crap in the beginning of the year. Sometimes he got beat, but at least as often he just plain missed the assignment (blocked the wrong person, or on some occasions, no one at all). By the end of the year, he was back on track to developing into a top OL.

Had we kept Chan, we would have played the whole season with his blocking schemes and techniques, and his terminology. We'd be starting the learning process with Albert with the beginning of OTA's. Would he learn the new scheme by week 1, 2010? I don't know. But he knows it now and has a good base to build on.

The biggest disappointment is that the OL still can't run a screen, even after 16 weeks.

The season was going to be a disaster from day 1. At least we made some progress on developing our future offense by shedding Chan. Yes it was ugly, but hopefully there is some semblance of a base to build on and the very worst is past. That is something. Running the year with Chan would have given us nothing.

[Brock]

Not firing Chan Gailey in February was the wrong move.

[chiefzilla1501]

The problem was he did it a few weeks before the season started. That was a huge mistake.

And I think that's a bit of revisionist history. I doubt Haley fired Chan because he expected Weis to be available in 2010. Just like Carl was stupid to trade Allen but lucked out by getting good trade value, we shouldn't praise a guy for making a stupid decision and then lucking into something good the next year. By all accounts, it seems that Haley fired Gailey because he wanted more control. Same reason they, for whatever weird reason, chose not to hire a QBs coach.

The good news is, I don't care as much about mistakes if the coach learns from them. Haley hiring Weis was a very, very bold move, because it takes a lot of power away from Haley.

[cdcox]

Not firing Chan Gailey in February was the wrong move.

Yes. And thank you Clark for that.

[RedThat]

Obviously Chan Gailey and Todd Haley do not see eye to eye on offensive philosophy, terminology or anything else. Chan was going to get replaced at the end of the season regardless of performance, because Haley is an offensive guy and he's not going to keep a coordinator that doesn't think like he does.

So he was faced with two choices: firing Chan at the beginning of the season or at the end of the season. I think the beginning of the season was the right move for the following reason:

The OL got a year under their belts in the new (or similar) system. We evaluated at least 10 OL and by the end of the season had some guys that were at least acceptable in every position except center. And maybe most importantly, Brandon Albert learned the new scheme. He played like crap in the beginning of the year. Sometimes he got beat, but at least as often he just plain missed the assignment (blocked the wrong person, or on some occasions, no one at all). By the end of the year, he was back on track to developing into a top OL.

Had we kept Chan, we would have played the whole season with his blocking schemes and techniques, and his terminology. We'd be starting the learning process with Albert with the beginning of OTA's. Would he learn the new scheme by week 1, 2010? I don't know. But he knows it now and has a good base to build on.

The biggest disappointment is that the OL still can't run a screen, even after 16 weeks.

The season was going to be a disaster from day 1. At least we made some progress on developing our future offense by shedding Chan. Yes it was ugly, but hopefully there is some semblance of a base to build on and the very worst is past. That is something. Running the year with Chan would have given us nothing.

Well, you said it. It really boils down to philosophy. Haley and Gailey's philosophy aren't exactly similar, and that pretty much explains the reason for hiring Weis? Both he and Haley will be on the same page I think.

[Skip Towne]

You got one thing right.......Haley is an offensive guy.

[cdcox]

The problem was he did it a few weeks before the season started. That was a huge mistake.

And I think that's a bit of revisionist history. I doubt Haley fired Chan because he expected Weis to be available in 2010. Just like Carl was stupid to trade Allen but lucked out by getting good trade value, we shouldn't praise a guy for making a stupid decision and then lucking into something good the next year. By all accounts, it seems that Haley fired Gailey because he wanted more control. Same reason they, for whatever weird reason, chose not to hire a QBs coach.

The good news is, I don't care as much about mistakes if the coach learns from them. Haley hiring Weis was a very, very bold move, because it takes a lot of power away from Haley.

I think it was because he wanted the offense to go in a different direction, rather than a power play. If you know you are going to change direction, the sooner you implement it, the better.

[jidar]

Obviously Chan Gailey and Todd Haley do not see eye to eye on offensive philosophy, terminology or anything else. Chan was going to get replaced at the end of the season regardless of performance, because Haley is an offensive guy and he's not going to keep a coordinator that doesn't think like he does.

So he was faced with two choices: firing Chan at the beginning of the season or at the end of the season. I think the beginning of the season was the right move for the following reason:

The OL got a year under their belts in the new (or similar) system. We evaluated at least 10 OL and by the end of the season had some guys that were at least acceptable in every position except center. And maybe most importantly, Brandon Albert learned the new scheme. He played like crap in the beginning of the year. Sometimes he got beat, but at least as often he just plain missed the assignment (blocked the wrong person, or on some occasions, no one at all). By the end of the year, he was back on track to developing into a top OL.

Had we kept Chan, we would have played the whole season with his blocking schemes and techniques, and his terminology. We'd be starting the learning process with Albert with the beginning of OTA's. Would he learn the new scheme by week 1, 2010? I don't know. But he knows it now and has a good base to build on.

The biggest disappointment is that the OL still can't run a screen, even after 16 weeks.

The season was going to be a disaster from day 1. At least we made some progress on developing our future offense by shedding Chan. Yes it was ugly, but hopefully there is some semblance of a base to build on and the very worst is past. That is something. Running the year with Chan would have given us nothing.


Nice assessment. I agree with that. I suppose what we're really saying here then is that Hunt forcing Gailey on the new coaches was a bad move on his part.


Also, good call on the screens. We suck at them so badly and they're such a great weapon I really hope we get that figured out by the time the season starts. It really seems like the kind of thing anyone could learn through repetition too.

[Hydrae]

I think it was because he wanted the offense to go in a different direction, rather than a power play. If you know you are going to change direction, the sooner you implement it, the better.

As Brock said already, waiting until 2 weeks before the season was where the mistake was at. I fail to believe it took until then for Haley to know they weren't going to mesh on multiple levels.

[Hammock Parties]

I absolutely agree.

By the end of the year they definitely put something together on offense, and it wasn't any spread bullshit either.

Now we get to hit the ground running in camp.

[Redrum_69]

Unless one or two of the pieces get hurt in preseason or training camp..as always the case. Soon as it looks like the Chiefs are getting their shit together someone gets hurt

[ChiTown]

As Brock said already, waiting until 2 weeks before the season was where the mistake was at. I fail to believe it took until then for Haley to know they weren't going to mesh on multiple levels.

From a source:
Haley and Pioli didn't necessarily want him from the beginning. It was a "strong suggestion" by Clark to keep Chan on board. When it was evident that Haley and Chan weren't meshing, Clark relented.

[RippedmyFlesh]

Nice assessment. I agree with that. I suppose what we're really saying here then is that Hunt forcing Gailey on the new coaches was a bad move on his part.

Like gun was on herm. A pattern there.

[Reerun_KC]

Great move! To say the least...

The offense improved over the last half of the year...

[ChiefaRoo]

It was the right move. It saved an entire year of Offensive rebuilding. The timing sucked but Haley did the right thing.

[RedThat]

I feel good about the offense and see alot of potential. However, I still have a few concerns. Cassel is one of them, he needs to improve and get better obviously, Bowe needs to bounce back, and be the same player he was 2 years ago if not better. Chambers was a good acquisition and could be a good stopgap solution. Still think Chiefs could draft a WR though.

I think we have something special in Charles, and the offense is going to work around him imo. Albert looks like he is progressing well. W. Smith is a starter imo. But they still need to add or develop a couple of more offensive lineman before they could have a good unit there.

Hiring Weis is a plus, and will only help in the development of offensive players. Maybe Richardson? Cottom? Cassel? I hope Weis can help play an instrumental role in developing these guys along the way. And we all see Haley as an offensive coach with an offensive background.

Special teams are pretty solid. We have two solid kickers, the coverage units are fine with the exception of the Cleveland game. Steve Hoffman is an awesome special teams
coach. Chiefs need a return man and they'll be really solid on special teams.

*I see all signs indicating and pointing in the direction that the strength of our team is going to be offense and special teams. I don't feel confident about the defense. This is what bothers me the most. I hope we don't see a Vermeil part deux in the making where we have all offense, good special team and a crappy defense.

*I hope they aren't loyal to Pendergast the same way they were to Robinson. If they are, he will be the new Greg Robinson. Even if thats the case, I still see the same crap. Hardly any playmakers on defense. Hali is the version of Eric Hicks except maybe a little better. Mike Brown is a broken down Jerome Woods. Both were once solid players in their days, but injuries and age creeped up on them. Okay Flowers is better than Warfield so we are grateful there. Carr is better than Bartee. Although the way he has played recently Im beginning to see shades of William Bartee. Vrabel is Shawn Barber. Solid player in previous schemes with good teams, come to KC and its a different story. John McGraw is the version of Jason Belser. Ron Edwards is John Browning. Glenn Dorsey is better than Ryan Sims. Maybe Tyson Jackson is the next Duane Clemons? Just think if they start Belcher all year, he possibly could develop into the next Mike Maslowski. Oh yeah and Page is Wesley.

Same defense, same crap. Call me worried. Yes. Maybe its slightly better today than Vermeils with Dorsey and Flowers there and throw in DJ because he could make some plays off the bench which is something the Chiefs didn't have under Vermeil.

[Mr. Laz]

Not firing Chan Gailey in February was the wrong move.this

you either fire him early or you don't fire him

[Chiefnj2]

The offense failed on every single level this year.

You'll never know if firing Gailey was the right move or not. Gailey might have made chicken salad out of chicken shit and played Wade over Goff. Maybe KC wouldn't have led the league in negative plays.

All you know is that this year the offense sucked ass and the choices made by Haley sucked.

[Hammock Parties]

The offense failed on every single level this year.

By averaging 413 yards per game over the last month of the season?

The offense clearly made significant progress by the end of the year. They made the right choice.

[chiefzilla1501]

If Weis weren't available, would it have been the best move?

I think a lot of our opinion is biased by knowing today that Weis would be available. But Haley didn't know that when he fired Gailey.

And for that matter, what about not hiring a QBs coach at all?

[Mr. Laz]

By averaging 413 yards per game over the last month of the season?

The offense clearly made significant progress by the end of the year. They made the right choice.
wait ... so the offense made significant progress but Cassel didn't make any progress?

[BigChiefFan]

We took our lumps now, rather than later, to ESTABLISH the offense that the head coach WANTS.

[cdcox]

The offense failed on every single level this year.

You'll never know if firing Gailey was the right move or not. Gailey might have made chicken salad out of chicken shit and played Wade over Goff. Maybe KC wouldn't have led the league in negative plays.

All you know is that this year the offense sucked ass and the choices made by Haley sucked.

Asking Haley to keep Chan was like matching up Richard Simmons and Samantha Fox. It doesn't matter how hot Samantha Fox is, if the two are fundamentally incompatible.

[OnTheWarpath15]

By averaging 413 yards per game over the last month of the season?

The offense clearly made significant progress by the end of the year. They made the right choice.

Numbers that can be attributed to a single player.

Jamaal Charles.

Did the entire offense improve?

Nope, and Cassel's numbers over the last 6 games bear that out. He was worse.

Jamaal Charles finally getting playing time, and making the most of his opportunity is the only reason you see this so-called "improvement."

[Sannyasi]

wait ... so the offense made significant progress but Cassel didn't make any progress?

Pretty much, yeah. Our offensive progress was due to the emergence of Charles and OL injuries that cleared the way for more talented players.

[DeezNutz]

Pretty much, yeah. Our offensive progress was due to the emergence of Charles and OL injuries that cleared the way for more talented players.

Sigh. :(

[LaChapelle]

we'll have to check the lint trap

[cdcox]

If Weis weren't available, would it have been the best move?

I think a lot of our opinion is biased by knowing today that Weis would be available. But Haley didn't know that when he fired Gailey.

And for that matter, what about not hiring a QBs coach at all?

I said at the time he was fired that it was a good move. So it's not hindsight based on Weis.

[Hammock Parties]

Did the entire offense improve?


The production in the passing game improved, actually. (236 YPG)

So, yes.

[Hammock Parties]

wait ... so the offense made significant progress but Cassel didn't make any progress?

I'd say he made some marginal progress in his passing production that was offset by horrible turnovers.

[Ralphy Boy]

Like gun was on herm. A pattern there.

Gun wasn't forced on Herm by the Hunts. He was forced on him by Carl. BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Mr. Laz]

I'd say he made some marginal progress in his passing production that was offset by horrible turnovers.
hmm ... i coulda sworn you starting fighting with me just the other day about how Cassel has not made any progress whatsoever.

you were pretty hostile about it iirc

[Hammock Parties]

hmm ... i coulda sworn you starting fighting with me just the other day about how Cassel has not made any progress whatsoever.

you were pretty hostile about it iirc

He had a 58.5 QB rating in his last six games. Go ahead and defend that, I guess.

[Mr. Laz]

He had a 58.5 QB rating in his last six games. Go ahead and defend that, I guess.
who's defending ... i'm just trying figure out whether you think Cassel improved or didn't improve. Since you've said both.

[OnTheWarpath15]

The production in the passing game improved, actually. (236 YPG)

So, yes.

THANK YOU, CLEVELAND!

[RedThat]

I would've been in favor of keeping Gailey under one circumstance. That is, "CAN" Todd haley provided lets say that Clark stepped in and made that decision. And, he hired Bill Cowher to be the teams next head coach.

So lets say they hired Cowher, and he would keep Gailey for sure. Cowher builds the defense. Then, I would feel more confident in building the defense if this team hired a defensive minded coach that knows defense probably a lot better than Todd Haley. The team does have talent on offense, and are light years ahead on offense then they are on defense. Plus, I think Gailey is a pretty good offensive co-ordinator and is capable of making something out of this offense.

But anyway, disregard my post, it's a little unrealistic since Cowher and Pioli probably wouldn't be a good match where both would want to much power and say in things which would lead to a problem since both guys probably have different philosophies anyway. Just wishful thinking on my part in thinking of a possible remedy on how to possibly build a well balanced team. Something KC hasn't had in ohhhhh years.

[MahiMike]

True dat.

[Chiefnj2]

Asking Haley to keep Chan was like matching up Richard Simmons and Samantha Fox. It doesn't matter how hot Samantha Fox is, if the two are fundamentally incompatible.

Just because Todd was unwilling to work with Gailey doesn't mean it is the right decision, nor does it mean the offense really made any strides. They didn't play murderers row down the stretch and didn't exactly light up the scoreboard except for the Cleveland game.

[Dave Lane]

wait ... so the offense made significant progress but Cassel didn't make any progress?

No totally he failed, he was so awful Jamarcus Russell was heard to say Damn that white boy sucks ass! I mean he didn't throw one complete pass the whole season not one of his wobble launchers were within 60 yards of any of our receivers and were all caught as interceptions by the other team!! His QB rating in every game was a astounding -158.3!!! He caused the plague to spread again over europe and asia is once again gripped in the clutches of the black death!! The germans attacked Pearl harbor again and Al Queda reconstituted in his locker! His inerrant passes caused the stock market to tank, forced the bailout that followed and shook world confidence in the dollar and the chiefs front office. 4 of the horsemen of the Apocalypse burst forth and were soon surrounded by hundreds of horsettes claiming they were the first to say he sucked.

Yes Mark Castile was and is an abomination and now when you look in the encyclopedia brittanica (unabridged version) under epic fail there is no description, no text, nothing but a picture of Mathew Castle!




/sarcasm

[|Zach|]

THANK YOU, CLEVELAND!

When we do bad things its because we suck. When we do good things its because other people suck or we got lucky.

Oh well...

[OnTheWarpath15]

When we do bad things its because we suck. When we do good things its because other people suck or we got lucky.

Oh well...

Do you think it's just coincidence that the only game Cassel threw for more than 265 yards was against a team that was starting a WR in the secondary and is 29th in pass defense?

[Titty Meat]

If Haley and Gailey weren't going to workout I don't see what the problem is. Besides in the end we got a better O-cordinator.

[|Zach|]

Do you think it's just coincidence that the only game Cassel threw for more than 265 yards was against a team that was starting a WR in the secondary?

I know, they suck or we were lucky. We get it dude.

Everything bad we do is because we suck though. We are never unlucky.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I know, they suck or we were lucky. We get it dude.

Everything bad we do is because we suck though. We are never unlucky.

Was it coincidence, or not, Zach?

Why is that such a hard question to answer?

Or is it just easier to go the Hootie route and defect everything?

[|Zach|]

Was it coincidence, or not, Zach?

Why is that such a hard question to answer?

Or is it just easier to go the Hootie route and defect everything?

No it is easier to throw your hands up and just be against what the Chiefs do.

Don't worry I am sure you will mock draft us to victory this offseason though.

Cassel wasn't put in a position to succeed the first year.

[OnTheWarpath15]

No it is easier to throw your hands up and just be against what the Chiefs do.

Don't worry I am sure you will mock draft us to victory this offseason though.

Cassel wasn't put in a position to succeed the first year.

I give.

You have no interest in answering the question.

Have a nice day.

[|Zach|]

I give.

You have no interest in answering the question.

Have a nice day.

No worries...no reason to get angry...

Mock it out man...just mock it out.

[OnTheWarpath15]

No worries...no reason to get angry...

Mock it out man...just mock it out.

Not angry at all, I think it's comical.

Why have a debate when you can just tuck your tail and run?

[|Zach|]

Not angry at all, I think it's comical.

Why have a debate when you can just tuck your tail and run?

Because I don't give a shit about debate on ChiefsPlanet with you? I enjoy football and get a kick out of ChiefsPlanet. I am not here to prove how stupid I think everyone is about football compared to me and fap to min by min mock drafts.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Because I don't give a shit about debate on ChiefsPlanet with you? I enjoy football and get a kick out of ChiefsPlanet. I am not here to prove how stupid I think everyone is about football compared to me and fap to min by min mock drafts.

Well, that's a good thing. That'd be damn near impossible.

[|Zach|]

Well, that's a good thing. That'd be damn near impossible.

Oh snap!

[petegz28]

I for one think the move was a good one though untimely. It was better to get rid of him before the season started. None of us really know why it was done when it was done as opposed to it being done earlier. But it was done and that was a good move.

[kcfanXIII]

i don't care how you spin it, the OC was fired 2 weeks before the season started. the chiefs entered the season still drawing plays up in the dirt. that is a huge disadvantage for the chiefs. do you know how long it takes to install a new system? new playbooks are usually installed during ota's, and even then the beginning of the season they're still not using the whole thing. even with the hiring of weis, and all the revisionist spin you want to put on this, it still showed haley is a hot head, and doesn't think out his decisions.

[kcxiv]

i am fine with it. Todd being a first year HC, i am sure alot of this was very fast and overwelming at first. Hell, how can it not be? People are always quick to react without sitting back and waiting to see what develops.

We all know there were a few people on this board that will jump and Pioli and Haley fast. It would have happened with ANY hire we had, people are just like that here. We all know who them cats are. lol

Give the people some time to see what they can do. It may not always be pretty and we may not always agree with it, but they know a whole hell of alot more about football then we all do. Again, even big time coaches and GM's make mistakes at times.

[kcfanXIII]

wait ... so the offense made significant progress but Cassel didn't make any progress?

its called stumbling over a great rb on your roster.

also for all you tools saying "we implemented our offense a year earlier by firing gaily," well, you are of course assuming weis runs the offense haley installed. for all we know, the chiefs are going to be starting over again. terrible move.

[Hammock Parties]

its called stumbling over a great rb on your roster.


It's more than that, because the offensive line definitely improved. No question at all. Remember when we couldn't even get a snap off in Baltimore?

PYG went from 165 pre-Chambers to 214 AC.

We would have won more games if the QB hadn't been such a dummy.

[kcfanXIII]

wtf did you expect though? cassel spends all off season learning new offense. 2 weeks before the beginning of the season, that is scraped and a new playbook is installed. idk if you know this or not, but you can't win in the nfl drawing plays up in the dirt. no doubt the offense improved, but honestly, any offense is going to look better 4 months after being installed, as opposed to 2 weeks after being installed. it was an extremely stupid decision. end of discussion.

[Hammock Parties]

wtf did you expect though? cassel spends all off season learning new offense. 2 weeks before the beginning of the season, that is scraped and a new playbook is installed. idk if you know this or not, but you can't win in the nfl drawing plays up in the dirt. no doubt the offense improved, but honestly, any offense is going to look better 4 months after being installed, as opposed to 2 weeks after being installed. it was an extremely stupid decision. end of discussion.

It was dumb in the short term. If it has long-term benefits, and it appears it already does, it was more than worth it.

The Chiefs weren't just "better." They were averaging over 400 yards per game by the season's last month. They crapped all over a very good defense in the last game of the year. At the start of the year good defenses were crapping all over THEM.

We could have won maybe two or three more games at the most if we had stuck with Gailey's offense this year. Then we fire him and start all over this offseason. What's the point?

[cdcox]

wtf did you expect though? cassel spends all off season learning new offense. 2 weeks before the beginning of the season, that is scraped and a new playbook is installed. idk if you know this or not, but you can't win in the nfl drawing plays up in the dirt. no doubt the offense improved, but honestly, any offense is going to look better 4 months after being installed, as opposed to 2 weeks after being installed. it was an extremely stupid decision. end of discussion.

So you'd be happier if we'd been running Chan's offense all season, we'd just fired him, we were at page zero of a new offense, we had no idea of what our weaknesses were the the context of executing the new scheme, and Albert still had the period struggling to go through? OK. I'd rather we be where we are. Gotta know when to cut your losses.

[kcfanXIII]

you are assuming we ran the offense weis will be running. we are essentially starting at page 1 with a new offense, and we wouldn't have been a laughing stock last season.

[chiefzilla1501]

It was dumb in the short term. If it has long-term benefits, and it appears it already does, it was more than worth it.

The Chiefs weren't just "better." They were averaging over 400 yards per game by the season's last month. They crapped all over a very good defense in the last game of the year. At the start of the year good defenses were crapping all over THEM.

We could have won maybe two or three more games at the most if we had stuck with Gailey's offense this year. Then we fire him and start all over this offseason. What's the point?

While I don't disagree, the decision could have and should have been made much sooner. And once the decision was made, they should have had an exit strategy. Whether that means bringing in a stronger-minded QBs coach who can help Haley come up with gameplans or an offensive consultant who can assist Haley throughout the year.

It was a big mistake. But as long as they learn from the mistake, I'm willing to move on and hope they don't repeat the same mistakes.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It was dumb in the short term. If it has long-term benefits, and it appears it already does, it was more than worth it.

The Chiefs weren't just "better." They were averaging over 400 yards per game by the season's last month. They crapped all over a very good defense in the last game of the year. At the start of the year good defenses were crapping all over THEM.

We could have won maybe two or three more games at the most if we had stuck with Gailey's offense this year. Then we fire him and start all over this offseason. What's the point?

They ran all over a defense ranked 26th in rush defense, and barely gained 200 passing yards against the 3rd ranked pass defense.

Denver is a very average defense, at best. Excellent against the pass, and poor against the run.

Give credit to Haley though, he actually attacked their weakness.

[HemiEd]

I think it was because he wanted the offense to go in a different direction, rather than a power play. If you know you are going to change direction, the sooner you implement it, the better.

I agree, and it took him a little time to realize what he needed to do. He couldn't wind the clock back.

[|Zach|]

http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=CAS541133&player2=SAN091667&player3=null&player4=null&position=quarterback&playerOne=Matt+Cassel&playerTwo=Mark+Sanchez&playerThree=Select+a+Player...&playerFour=Select+a+Player...

[OnTheWarpath15]

http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=CAS541133&player2=SAN091667&player3=null&player4=null&position=quarterback&playerOne=Matt+Cassel&playerTwo=Mark+Sanchez&playerThree=Select+a+Player...&playerFour=Select+a+Player...

I hope that's not a case FOR Cassel.

[petegz28]

They ran all over a defense ranked 26th in rush defense, and barely gained 200 passing yards against the 3rd ranked pass defense.

Denver is a very average defense, at best. Excellent against the pass, and poor against the run.

Give credit to Haley though, he actually attacked their weakness.

While he had some rather curious playcalls throughout the season, it comes down to the players. You can have anyone you want calling whatever plays he calls, if the players don't execute then it doesn't mean shit as to who is the OC.

[OnTheWarpath15]

While he had some rather curious playcalls throughout the season, it comes down to the players. You can have anyone you want calling whatever plays he calls, if the players don't execute then it doesn't mean shit as to who is the OC.

I don't think that's true at all.

Matter of fact, I think when you are devoid of talent, it makes the OC/DC position that much more important.

You have to find a way to get players in a position to succeed.

When you have a roster full of talent, coaching isn't as important, as talent can overcome bad schemes/coaching.

[jAZ]

Not firing Chan Gailey in February was the wrong move.

If Weis is all that we hope he will be, then waiting until Week 1 to fire Chan Gailey was EXACTLY the right move.

2009 was a total write-off no matter what.

[petegz28]

I don't think that's true at all.

Matter of fact, I think when you are devoid of talent, it makes the OC/DC position that much more important.

You have to find a way to get players in a position to succeed.

When you have a roster full of talent, coaching isn't as important, as talent can overcome bad schemes/coaching.

That would be true if we lacked some talent. When you have NO talent then you are stuck calling halfback dives every play.

When some talent finally showed itself in the way of JC, the offense got better as a whole. Including the playcalling. When your team can't block you can't call too much in the way of plays. When there was finally a running threat the blocking got better because defenses had to respect it thus opening up more passing plays. While there is some truth to what you say about good talent making bad calls look good, no talent makes most plays look like shit.

Also talent made the same alleged shitty running plays called early in the season suddenly look good in the 2nd half. IF players can't execute then it doesn't matter what is called.

[Hammock Parties]

you are assuming we ran the offense weis will be running. we are essentially starting at page 1 with a new offense, and we wouldn't have been a laughing stock last season.

I disagree. Haley already said the system he runs and the system Weis runs are practically identical.

[petegz28]

you are assuming we ran the offense weis will be running. we are essentially starting at page 1 with a new offense, and we wouldn't have been a laughing stock last season.



I think that is a bad take. Weis and Haley supposedly have very similar offensive schemes. I don't think Weis would have been brought in otherwise.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That would be true if we lacked some talent. When you have NO talent then you are stuck calling halfback dives every play.

When some talent finally showed itself in the way of JC, the offense got better as a whole. Including the playcalling. When your team can't block you can't call too much in the way of plays. When there was finally a running threat the blocking got better because defenses had to respect it thus opening up more passing plays. While there is some truth to what you say about good talent making bad calls look good, no talent makes most plays look like shit.

Also talent made the same alleged shitty running plays called early in the season suddenly look good in the 2nd half. IF players can't execute then it doesn't matter what is called.

The same shitty running plays were suited for the guy that made them work in the 2nd half of the season, and were a terrible fit for the guy getting 2.7.

Guys like LJ are downhill runners. Line them up 6-7 yards behind the LOS and give them the ball.

You can't expect a guy like LJ to be able to do the things Haley was asking him to do - misdirection, draws, etc. They create no momentum at all.

Again, it's putting players in a position to succeed.

The 2001 Patriots didn't have much talent on offense, and they won a fucking championship - mainly because BB wasn't asking his players to do things they weren't capable of.

[jAZ]

you are assuming we ran the offense weis will be running. we are essentially starting at page 1 with a new offense, and we wouldn't have been a laughing stock last season.

Give me laughing stock during a time when no one cares over a wasted year of player/system development (by keeping Chan) or a wasted opportunity to get Weis (if we hired a different OC in Feb).

I'd say it worked out quite well.

[Reerun_KC]

Give me laughing stock during a time when no one cares over a wasted year of player/system development (by keeping Chan) or a wasted opportunity to get Weis (if we hired a different OC in Feb).

I'd say it worked out quite well.

Agree... It was pointless to keep an OC that wasnt on the same page as your HC....

I like the offense and direction its going... Wies is a great hire, should be good times ahead for us...

[petegz28]

The same shitty running plays were suited for the guy that made them work in the 2nd half of the season, and were a terrible fit for the guy getting 2.7.

Guys like LJ are downhill runners. Line them up 6-7 yards behind the LOS and give them the ball.

You can't expect a guy like LJ to be able to do the things Haley was asking him to do - misdirection, draws, etc. They create no momentum at all.

Again, it's putting players in a position to succeed.

The 2001 Patriots didn't have much talent on offense, and they won a ****ing championship - mainly because BB wasn't asking his players to do things they weren't capable of.

And they still had more talent than this Chiefs team had.

[OnTheWarpath15]

And they still had more talent than this Chiefs team had.

I'm not claiming that this team would have won a championship with better coaching, FFS.

[Marcellus]

Just because Todd was unwilling to work with Gailey doesn't mean it is the right decision, nor does it mean the offense really made any strides. They didn't play murderers row down the stretch and didn't exactly light up the scoreboard except for the Cleveland game.

If it is not the offense they want to run it would have been a waste of time.Some of you guys are blind as a bat.

[kcfanXIII]

i'm not saying its not working out. just would have been a hell of a lot better season if the chiefs had had their offense installed in ota's like everyone else. in the grand scheme of things, its not a big deal, but if you're looking at trends from a young head coach its about the furthest thing from promising you could want. my whole problem is the timing of it all. firing an oc two weeks before the season started was a bad move. with all the improvement you guys are talking about, imagine how the chiefs offense would have looked if they'd have installed the system during OTA's like everybody else.

as for their offenses being similar, i'm not sure on any of that. i'm does anyone have an independent source who says the two are similar? you know, not just the coachspeak responses haley loves to give during pressors...

[HemiEd]

Was it coincidence, or not, Zach?

Why is that such a hard question to answer?

Or is it just easier to go the Hootie route and defect everything?

If anyone is DEFECTING everything, it is you and the other three horsemen. ROFL

[kcfanXIII]

If it is not the offense they want to run it would have been a waste of time.Some of you guys are blind as a bat.

then you can lump the head coach in this group, because he waited untill TWO WEEKS before the start of the regular season. not two weeks before camp, or preseason, it was the regular season. if haley had made the call in june, or before, i could have got behind it, but the decision to go another route that close to meaningful games, shows an immature coach. it was a horrible decision that effected the chiefs through more than 3/4's of the season.

[OnTheWarpath15]

If anyone is DEFECTING everything, it is you and the other three horsemen. ROFL

Damn those tricky "L's"

LMAO

What are we defLecting, ED?

We've all used statistics, analysis and evidence to present our case.

The others?

"Well, I think Cassel will be better, therefore he will be."

Strong case, there.

[petegz28]

Damn those tricky "L's"

LMAO

What are we defLecting, ED?

We've all used statistics, analysis and evidence to present our case.

The others?

"Well, I think Cassel will be better, therefore he will be."

Strong case, there.

Cassel just needs the right type of coaching ROFL

[Chiefnj2]

If it is not the offense they want to run it would have been a waste of time.Some of you guys are blind as a bat.

I have a hard time believing that after he was retained, Chan went to the drawing room without any input from Haley and designed an offense that Haley didn't want to run. Did Haley bother looking at the playbook when it was put together in March and April? Did Haley observe the offense in mini-camp?

Plus, what proof is there that Haley and Weis run the same system? The Cardinals ran the same offense as the Patriots?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Cassel just needs the right type of coaching ROFL

Another of my personal favorites.

He had great coaching last year, and still couldn't complete over 40% of his passes over 10 yards.

And that's with Moss, Welker and a damn good OL.

[HemiEd]

Damn those tricky "L's"

LMAO

What are we defLecting, ED?

We've all used statistics, analysis and evidence to present our case.

The others?

"Well, I think Cassel will be better, therefore he will be."

Strong case, there.

Never said you were "deflecting" anything, not at all. You guys have been very consistent on that.

But everything is DEFECTIVE. Well, that is an exaggeration on my part, but it was fun anyway. Maybe only 95%.

But, as you have probably noticed, I am firmly off the Cassel bandwagon. We are fucked there.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Never said you were "deflecting" anything, not at all. You guys have been very consistent on that.

But everything is DEFECTIVE. Well, that is an exaggeration on my part, but it was fun anyway. Maybe only 95%.

Like I said, damn those tricky "L's"

LMAO

[petegz28]

Another of my personal favorites.

He had great coaching last year, and still couldn't complete over 40% of his passes over 10 yards.

And that's with Moss, Welker and a damn good OL.

So then you admit a good coach can only turn shit into a shit sandwich at best?

[tonyetony]

Another of my personal favorites.

He had great coaching last year, and still couldn't complete over 40% of his passes over 10 yards.

And that's with Moss, Welker and a damn good OL.

Would it be alright with you if he completed 40% of his passes over 10 yards next year and won 11 games?

[OnTheWarpath15]

So then you admit a good coach can only turn shit into a shit sandwich at best?

I think good coaching can tap unrealized potential out of players.

Not sure how this pertains to Cassel, however.

[Mecca]

Todd Haley is such an awesome playcaller he ran plays for Lance Long but not Dwayne Bowe.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Would it be alright with you if he completed 40% of his passes over 10 yards next year and won 11 games?

No. Because it doesn't solve the larger issue, winning a championship.

Look back at teams that only used the passing game as an extension of their running game, and they are mostly one-and-done in the playoffs.

You might get away with it once if you have an elite, once in a decade defense.

Without a franchise QB, the odds are stacked against you.

[petegz28]

I think good coaching can tap unrealized potential out of players.

Not sure how this pertains to Cassel, however.

It goes back to what I saying earlier that you said I was wrong about. Which is, I don't care who the coach or playcaller is, if there is shit for talent on the field then shit is what will come out.

The most a coach can do is take the bad shit and make it smell a touch better.

[Mecca]

That's a pointless question anyway if Matt Cassel was consistently asked to throw the ball over 10 yards he'd have one of the worst years in QB history.

[petegz28]

That's a pointless question anyway if Matt Cassel was consistently asked to throw the ball over 10 yards he'd have one of the worst years in QB history.

Agreed. I will admit I thought he was going to be better than he was. But after this season I am not all that sure as to why so many teams wanted him so bad?

[Marcellus]

I have a hard time believing that after he was retained, Chan went to the drawing room without any input from Haley and designed an offense that Haley didn't want to run. Did Haley bother looking at the playbook when it was put together in March and April? Did Haley observe the offense in mini-camp?

Plus, what proof is there that Haley and Weis run the same system? The Cardinals ran the same offense as the Patriots?

I take it you haven't read Haley's comments about Weis. Do your homework read what is being said.

[Chiefnj2]

I take it you haven't read Haley's comments about Weis. Do your homework read what is being said.

Haley said they run the same system. I understand that, I'm just wondering what the proof is since Weis just finished coaching at Notre Dame for several years. Are you saying KC runs the same offense as Notre Dame?

[tonyetony]

Todd Haley is such an awesome playcaller he ran plays for Lance Long but not Dwayne Bowe.

Spot on as to why Weis can only help. It was obvious to me that was the offensive game plan going in not just improvisations, wtf was that all about.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It goes back to what I saying earlier that you said I was wrong about. Which is, I don't care who the coach or playcaller is, if there is shit for talent on the field then shit is what will come out.

The most a coach can do is take the bad shit and make it smell a touch better.

Do you think that Glenn Dorsey has reached his potential?

Tamba?

Albert?


That's what I mean about good coaching tapping unreached potential.

Good coaching will bring out the best in a player that actually has ability. It can also mask the shittiness of bad players by putting them into a position to succeed.

Example:

I fully expect Matt Cassel's statistics, on the surface, to improve.

Why?

Not because the kid has talent, because Charlie Weis is smart enough to put him in a position to succeed by steering clear of his weaknesses.

Cassel will dink and dunk his way down the field next year, and people will scream PROGRESS!

Instead of looking at the bigger issue, which is his downfield accuracy.

[Marcellus]

Haley said they run the same system. I understand that, I'm just wondering what the proof is since Weis just finished coaching at Notre Dame for several years. Are you saying KC runs the same offense as Notre Dame?

Are you seriously this fucking stubborn? You want to know what the "proof" is? Do you need playbooks from both coaches? What is it going to take?


JFC quite being an asshat.

[Mecca]

I fully expect a bunch of bubble screens and dump offs next year.

[petegz28]

Do you think that Glenn Dorsey has reached his potential?

Tamba?

Albert?


That's what I mean about good coaching tapping unreached potential.

Good coaching will bring out the best in a player that actually has ability. It can also mask the shittiness of bad players by putting them into a position to succeed.

Example:

I fully expect Matt Cassel's statistics, on the surface, to improve.

Why?

Not because the kid has talent, because Charlie Weis is smart enough to put him in a position to succeed by steering clear of his weaknesses.

Cassel will dink and dunk his way down the field next year, and people will scream PROGRESS!

Instead of looking at the bigger issue, which is his downfield accuracy.

Dorsey, played all of 2 years and most seem to say it takes 3 years for a D-lineman to start to click. And this was his first year in a 3-4.

Albert took a step back, hopefully a sophomore jinkx

Tamba? Arguably had his best season as a Chief. We made work this year what Gunther and Herm couldn't in moving him over to the right side.

[Marcellus]

Do you think that Glenn Dorsey has reached his potential?

Tamba?

Albert?


That's what I mean about good coaching tapping unreached potential.

Good coaching will bring out the best in a player that actually has ability. It can also mask the shittiness of bad players by putting them into a position to succeed.

Example:

I fully expect Matt Cassel's statistics, on the surface, to improve.

Why?

Not because the kid has talent, because Charlie Weis is smart enough to put him in a position to succeed by steering clear of his weaknesses.

Cassel will dink and dunk his way down the field next year, and people will scream PROGRESS!

Instead of looking at the bigger issue, which is his downfield accuracy.

Down field accuracy is not an issue if we don't run a downfield passing game. NE won at least one SB without a downfield passing game and didn't pass down field much until they got Moss.


Wes Welker is their leading receiver this year, how far down field are most of his catches?

[petegz28]

Down field accuracy is not an issue if we don't run a downfield passing game. NE won at least one SB without a downfield passing game and didn't pass down field much until they got Moss.


Wes Welker is their leading receiver this year, how far down field are most of his catches?

As a FF owner of said Welker I could say he runs for more yards after the catch than the ball is in the air when it is thrown to him.

[Mecca]

Actually it is an issue because if teams start realizing you never throw downfield you're going to get the entire defense within 5 yards of the line.

[petegz28]

I fully expect a bunch of bubble screens and dump offs next year.

If it works, great! Having a legit RB helps make those things work though.

[petegz28]

Actually it is an issue because if teams start realizing you never throw downfield you're going to get the entire defense within 5 yards of the line.

That was the story of the Chiefs ala L.J. When JC hit the scene those shorter passes were more productive. Not that I am saying we can just throw short but it helped open up the PA Pass which opened up that space where the LB's were living with LJ.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Down field accuracy is not an issue if we don't run a downfield passing game. NE won at least one SB without a downfield passing game and didn't pass down field much until they got Moss.


Wes Welker is their leading receiver this year, how far down field are most of his catches?

Yeah, the league has caught on to the dink-and-dunk methods of the early part of this decade. And Matt Cassel is no Tom Brady; Toddy Haley is no Bill Belichick.

I'll tell you what:

I'll give you Matt Cassel and an elite defense.

I'll take a true franchise QB like Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, etc with an average defense.

When given the choice to win a SB, I'd think more people would take my option over yours.

Matter of fact, I'm not sure who besides a few homers on this forum would even consider your option.

[Chiefnj2]

Are you seriously this ****ing stubborn? You want to know what the "proof" is? Do you need playbooks from both coaches? What is it going to take?


JFC quite being an asshat.

I'm not being stubborn. I think it's a little silly for a pro coach to tell the fans that the new HC who is coming from college runs the same offense that the NFL team does. Based on the few Notre Dame games I watched, they didn't look a lot like KC.

[HemiEd]

Todd Haley is such an awesome playcaller he ran plays for Lance Long but not Dwayne Bowe.

Could that have been because he already had a fairly good idea what he had in Bowe, and was trying to find out if Lance Long was worth a shit?

[Brock]

Could that have been because he already had a fairly good idea what he had in Bowe, and was trying to find out if Lance Long was worth a shit?

If so, that's pretty stupid.

[OnTheWarpath15]

If so, that's pretty stupid.

Beat me to it.

[HemiEd]

If so, that's pretty stupid.

How so, he was trying to win the division and make the playoffs? Now that is stupid.

[petegz28]

Yeah, the league has caught on to the dink-and-dunk methods of the early part of this decade. And Matt Cassel is no Tom Brady; Toddy Haley is no Bill Belichick.

I'll tell you what:

I'll give you Matt Cassel and an elite defense.

I'll take a true franchise QB like Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, etc with an average defense.

When given the choice to win a SB, I'd think more people would take my option over yours.

Matter of fact, I'm not sure who besides a few homers on this forum would even consider your option.

We had the #1 scoring offense for how many years with DV? Granted our defense was less than average.

[petegz28]

Could that have been because he already had a fairly good idea what he had in Bowe, and was trying to find out if Lance Long was worth a shit?

Or it could have been that Cassel was too fucking scared to throw the ball down the field.

[Kyle DeLexus]

you are assuming we ran the offense weis will be running. we are essentially starting at page 1 with a new offense, and we wouldn't have been a laughing stock last season.

Not assuming at all, thats what the all this "great fit" talk has been about. Basically, we will be running the same offense, and I'd be willing to bet that Weis will be the one switching terminology so there shouldn't be much change for the players.

[Brock]

How so, he was trying to win the division and make the playoffs? Now that is stupid.

He should have been trying to, you know, win games.

[petegz28]

Not assuming at all, thats what the all this "great fit" talk has been about. Basically, we will be running the same offense, and I'd be willing to bet that Weis will be the one switching terminology so there shouldn't be much change for the players.

I expect a lot of shotgun sets and short passing game. JC can run then draw and Cassel needs all the time he can to view the defense.

Then again, the MU Tigers did actually run a play from under center this year, so anything is possible!

[michaelj_58]

i think hiring weis is a good fit and he will work with castle and get his timing down,wide receiver in the first round,free agent o line and vince woflack from the pats add linebacker and a safety and were in like flint.sorry just dreaming here!

[HemiEd]

He should have been trying to, you know, win games.

That is crazy talk. You don't fake a punt from your own 28, or throw 4 yard passes in FG range, with no time left, if you are trying to do that.

It is understood this was a throwaway, tryout year, you didn't get the memo?

[FAX]

Yeah, the league has caught on to the dink-and-dunk methods of the early part of this decade. And Matt Cassel is no Tom Brady; Toddy Haley is no Bill Belichick.

I'll tell you what:

I'll give you Matt Cassel and an elite defense.

I'll take a true franchise QB like Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, etc with an average defense.

When given the choice to win a SB, I'd think more people would take my option over yours.

Matter of fact, I'm not sure who besides a few homers on this forum would even consider your option.

An elite defense? I'll take that.

A stellar defense can get your ass right into the playoffs on a regular basis.

FAX

[OnTheWarpath15]

An elite defense? I'll take that.

A stellar defense can get your ass right into the playoffs on a regular basis.

FAX

You can have the stellar defense, but you have to take the shitty QB.

Good luck.

[petegz28]

That is crazy talk. You don't fake a punt from your own 28, or throw 4 yard passes in FG range, with no time left, if you are trying to do that.

It is understood this was a throwaway, tryout year, you didn't get the memo?

Um the 4 yard pass in the middle of the field in FG range with no time left sits squarley on the QB and stops there.

[Chris Meck]

My thought is that I'd take Trent Green and a stellar defense any day. Now, I'm not sold on Cassel at all, but I think having watched him closely now that Green is maybe his upside comparison. If we get 10 years of Trent Green type production out of him, then it was a steal as a #2 pick. I don't think Trent was anywhere near being a Manning/Brady type player. I think there's a tier below that where good quarterbacks live. Cassel may become that.

[HemiEd]

Um the 4 yard pass in the middle of the field in FG range with no time left sits squarley on the QB and stops there.

I know, I know, lighten up Francis.. It is fucking Friday afternoon, and I don't really give a shit, I was trying to be funny.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

An elite defense? I'll take that.

A stellar defense can get your ass right into the playoffs on a regular basis.

FAX

And that shitty QB will get your ass out of the playoffs just as quick.

But it's pretty clear that most people just want to relive the 90s.

[petegz28]

I know, I know, lighten up Francis.. It is ****ing Friday afternoon, and I don't really give a shit, I was trying to be funny.

Anybody call me Francis.....and I'll kill ya!

[Marcellus]

Yeah, the league has caught on to the dink-and-dunk methods of the early part of this decade. And Matt Cassel is no Tom Brady; Toddy Haley is no Bill Belichick.

I'll tell you what:

I'll give you Matt Cassel and an elite defense.

I'll take a true franchise QB like Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, etc with an average defense.

When given the choice to win a SB, I'd think more people would take my option over yours.

Matter of fact, I'm not sure who besides a few homers on this forum would even consider your option.

What do you mean "my" option? I never said what I wanted. I am just stating an opinion on down field passing. Most teams don't throw down field much. Maybe 3 or 4 times a game except for a handful of teams.

Your first option was KC 2002-2004 ala Trent Green with a bad to below avg defense.

The second option you mentioned is the NYJ this year.

My option would be the 2003 KC Offense with the 2009 NYJ defense.

[Marcellus]

And that shitty QB will get your ass out of the playoffs just as quick.

But it's pretty clear that most people just want to relive the 90s.

S***chez is about to prove Hamas' point.

[HemiEd]

Anybody call me Francis.....and I'll kill ya!

Did you forget? This is not D.C., we all make nice down here.

But, to carry that point one step further, Cassel clearly was the one that fucked up. But Haley was pushing the envelope, running that play with what, 8 seconds left?

Clearly, they should be able to, if everyone has their shit together, but they obviously didn't.