McGwire admits steroid use

[Shag]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

NEW YORK -- Mark McGwire finally came clean Monday, admitting he used steroids when he broke baseball's home run record in 1998.

McGwire said in a statement sent to The Associated Press on Monday that he used steroids on and off for nearly a decade.

"I wish I had never touched steroids," McGwire said in a statement. "It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era."

McGwire also used human growth hormone, a person close to McGwire said, speaking on condition of anonymity because McGwire didn't include that detail in his statement.

McGwire's decision to admit using steroids was prompted by his decision to become hitting coach of the St. Louis Cardinals, his final big league team. Tony La Russa, McGwire's manager in Oakland and St. Louis, has been among McGwire's biggest supporters and thinks returning to the field can restore the former slugger's reputation.

"I never knew when, but I always knew this day would come," McGwire said. "It's time for me to talk about the past and to confirm what people have suspected."

He became the second major baseball star in less than a year to admit using illegal steroids, following the New York Yankees' Alex Rodriguez last February.

Others have been tainted but have denied knowingly using illegal drugs, including Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa and David Ortiz.

Bonds has been indicted on charges he made false statements to a federal grand jury and obstructed justice. Clemens is under investigation by a federal grand jury trying to determine whether he lied to a congressional committee.

"I'm sure people will wonder if I could have hit all those home runs had I never taken steroids," McGwire said. "I had good years when I didn't take any, and I had bad years when I didn't take any. I had good years when I took steroids, and I had bad years when I took steroids. But no matter what, I shouldn't have done it and for that I'm truly sorry."

Big Mac's reputation has been in tatters since March 17, 2005, when he refused to answer questions at a Congressional hearing. Instead, he repeatedly said "I'm not here to talk about the past" when asked whether he took illegal steroids when he hit a then-record 70 home runs in 1998 or at any other time.

"After all this time, I want to come clean," he said. "I was not in a position to do that five years ago in my congressional testimony, but now I feel an obligation to discuss this and to answer questions about it. I'll do that, and then I just want to help my team."

The person close to McGwire said McGwire made the decision not to answer questions at that hearing on the advice of his lawyers.

McGwire disappeared from the public eye following his retirement as a player following the 2001 season. When the Cardinals hired the 47-year-old as coach on Oct. 26, they said he would address questions before spring training, and Monday's statement broke his silence.

"I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989/1990 offseason and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again," McGwire said in his statement. "I used them on occasion throughout the '90s, including during the 1998 season."

McGwire said he took steroids to get back on the field, sounding much like the Yankees' Andy Pettitte two years ago when he admitted using HGH.

"During the mid-'90s, I went on the DL seven times and missed 228 games over five years," McGwire said in the statement. "I experienced a lot of injuries, including a ribcage strain, a torn left heel muscle, a stress fracture of the left heel, and a torn right heel muscle. It was definitely a miserable bunch of years, and I told myself that steroids could help me recover faster. I thought they would help me heal and prevent injuries, too."

Since the congressional hearing, baseball owners and players toughened their drug program twice, increasing the penalty for a first steroids offense from 10 days to 50 games in November 2005 and strengthening the power of the independent administrator in April 2008, following the publication of the Mitchell Report.

"Baseball is really different now -- it's been cleaned up," McGwire said. "The commissioner and the players' association implemented testing and they cracked down, and I'm glad they did."

[Brock]

Wow, no shit.

[DMAC]

See...If your gonna lie for 5+ years, might as well go the distance.

[RJ]

*sigh*

I miss the steroid era.

[DeezNutz]

I'm not in this thread to talk about the past.

[Brock]

"Now please, pretty please, let me in?"

[Pitt Gorilla]

Shocking. He looked 100% natural, just like those guys at the gym that hang out together looking at themselves in the mirror and never seem to actually lift.

[FD]

Is anyone surprised?

[blaise]

"Now please, pretty please, let me in?"

That's the gist of it.

[blaise]

People only say McGwire did steroids because of a racially motivated witch hunt, just like they did to Barry Bonds.

[Miles]

That's the gist of it.

He also needed to get this out of the way since he is the new hitting coach for the Cardinals.

[keg in kc]

Somebody just told me that it's been cold and there's snow on the ground.

[Demonpenz]

mcgwire had bad acne too

[blaise]

As soon as Sammy Sosa learns English he's going to come clean, too.

[Reerun_KC]

When will Pujois admit his use?

[Bearcat]

"I never knew when, but I always knew this day would come," McGwire said. "It's time for me to talk about the past and to confirm what people have suspected."


Remember kids, there's always a right time to tell the truth.... maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but when it happens, you'll know.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

It's really time to move on. I don't blame the players. I blame baseball. Sports is a business, and players protected their "assets" to the degree the league allowed them to do it.

[DMAC]

When will Pujois admit his use?ooooo Oh he went there!!! :thailor:

[Deberg_1990]

Guess Canseco isnt such a douche after all....

[KC_Connection]

I hate that McGwire felt he had to give an insincere apology full of BS in order to get into the HOF (he should have been in there, anyway). But this is the world we live in.

[KC_Connection]

When will Pujois admit his use?

When he gets caught and says he was only using the stuff to come back from injuries. You know...like everyone else in baseball.

[Frazod]

Guess Canseco isnt such a douche after all....

To the contrary, he's one of the biggest douches who ever lived. Sure he was right. He also threw all his friends and teammates under a bus to make a buck on his fucking biography.

I hope there is a special place in hell for scum like that.

[tyton75]

I would like to know the honest number of players who were juicing.. I mean it wasn't just the stars..

Brady Andersen hit 50+ home runs for a season for crying out loud

[dirk digler]

Does this mean the Cardinals are a bunch of cheaters?

:D

[Alton deFlat]

Guess Canseco isnt such a douche after all....

Oh no, he's still a douche. :D

[Reerun_KC]

ooooo Oh he went there!!! :thailor:

Someone had to do it! I admit though, I dont care or know much about baseball... Without roids, baseball is worthless...

[Frazod]

"Pujols must be on roids" translates out of bullshit into English as "God I wish he was on my team, and how am I going to alleviate this vaginal inflammation?"

[Cannibal]

Is MLB going to use "the asterisk" next to the dudes who broke records and took roids like they talked about doing? I would think that is all that would have to be done.

[FloridaMan88]

Does McGwire really think that admitting to this 12 years after his "historic" '98 season and 5 years since his infamous showing in front of Congress is going to make everything alright?

And at the very least if you are going to finally "come clean" and "talk about the past"... do it in person and face-to-face... not hiding behind a carefully crafted statement.

[bevischief]

someone knew something and threaten to go media...
Posted via Mobile Device

[KC_Connection]

"Pujols must be on roids" translates out of bullshit into English as "God I wish he was on my team, and how am I going to alleviate this vaginal inflammation?"
I think Pujols is on roids and I wish he was on my team. It can be both.

[CoMoChief]

Him and Sosa saved baseball. MLB should be thanking them if anything. After the strike, nobody gave a shit about baseball for about 5 years.

Personally I dont care that hitters use them, because for one, hand eye coordination in hitting a baseball is about 95% of hitting. McGwire and Sosa are different the Pujols and Arod. Pujols and Arod are GREAT hitters outside of having power, they have great OB%, they have great eye for the ball, esp Pujols, you hardly ever see the guy strike out.

McGwire overall wasn't a good hitter, he'd either SO or hit it to Jupiter. Same with Sosa, though Sosa was a little bit better hitter, but they both are poster boy "MLB Sluggers". Get guys on base and hope they would blast one over the fences.

[Frazod]

someone knew something and threaten to go media...
Posted via Mobile Device

Yes, that must be it.

Because nobody ever suspected a thing.

[KC_Connection]

Is MLB going to use "the asterisk" next to the dudes who broke records and took roids like they talked about doing? I would think that is all that would have to be done.

Might as well put the asterisk on Aaron for using amphetamines. And Babe Ruth for playing in an era with only whites.

[blaise]

Him and Sosa saved baseball. MLB should be thanking them if anything. After the strike, nobody gave a shit about baseball for about 5 years.

people say that, but it's not true. It's not like baseball was going to go away or something.

[Fish]

Remember kids, there's always a right time to tell the truth.... maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but when it happens, you'll know.

LMAO

No kidding.

[Frazod]

Might as well put the asterisk on Aaron for using amphetamines. And Babe Ruth for playing in an era with only whites.

The Babe laced his hot dogs with cocaine. Cheating bastard.

[KC_Connection]

someone knew something and threaten to go media...
Posted via Mobile Device
Uhh...no. Everyone already knew Mark McGwire did steroids...it's not like we needed some random guy telling us that.

McGwire said this because he's coming back to baseball this year and didn't want to be a distraction. Of course...it also carries the added benefit of getting him back in the HOF.

[Deberg_1990]

I suspect we will continue to see these once Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa come up for the Hall....

[KC_Connection]

I suspect we will continue to see these once Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa come up for the Hall....

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens can't really say anything...wouldn't that be considered perjury at this point?

[Renegade]

Well at least we know the German's attacked Pearl Harbor, that hasn't changed anything

[FloridaMan88]

Him and Sosa saved baseball. MLB should be thanking them if anything. After the strike, nobody gave a shit about baseball for about 5 years.

12 years later Sosa is white and McGwire is a vagina.

Karma is a bitch

[wild1]

I don't think one-dimensional players should get into the Hall, even if they aren't cheaters.

[Reerun_KC]

"Pujols must be on roids" translates out of bullshit into English as "God I wish he was on my team, and how am I going to alleviate this vaginal inflammation?"

Not really, Would be better if someone would roid up and step up to his level that is already on someones team...


dont get sand in your gina over nothing Frazzy!

[Demonpenz]

The faster bonds, arod, pujols, mcgwire admit it to the media, the faster we can forgive them

[kcfanXIII]

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fuck you mark mcgwire! i hope they pete rose your ass...

[jAZ]

It still amazes me how many people were so eager to deny and excuse the obvious signals of steroid use at the time.

The vast, vast majority of people discussing the issue publicly during the early days of were fans finding any number of rationalizations why this or that guy or record or performance or whatever wasn't because of steroids.

Steroids won't make you hit the ball better. It was a "juiced ball". It was the conditioning. It was this or that.

When you can't get baseball fan to see past their idealism and blind passion for the game and question that maybe baseball players might be abusing steroids, how in the world can we expect the general public to see past any number of examples of BS and lying going on in other areas of public life.

It's threads like this that draw into stark contrast how widespread cognitive dissonance can be.

[BigRedChief]

Does McGwire really think that admitting to this 12 years after his "historic" '98 season and 5 years since his infamous showing in front of Congress is going to make everything alright?

And at the very least if you are going to finally "come clean" and "talk about the past"... do it in person and face-to-face... not hiding behind a carefully crafted statement.He is planning a news conference and will answer all questions. Part of the deal with him becoming the hitting instructor.

[Deberg_1990]

It still amazes me how many people were so eager to deny and excuse the obvious signals of steroid use at the time.

The vast, vast majority of people discussing the issue publicly during the early days of were fans finding any number of rationalizations why this or that guy or record or performance or whatever wasn't because of steroids.

Steroids won't make you hit the ball better. It was a "juiced ball". It was the conditioning. It was this or that.

When you can't get baseball fan to see past their idealism and blind passion for the game and question that maybe baseball players might be abusing steroids, how in the world can we expect the general public to see past any number of examples of BS and lying going on in other areas of public life.

It's threads like this that draw into stark contrast how widespread cognitive dissonance can be.


ok thanks. you can go back to your D.C. cave now.

[Mr. Laz]

I suspect we will continue to see these once Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa come up for the Hall....If he held a presser and said: "Yes i did it, and im sorry" he would get in the next year.
well ... he did it.

next year is the year!!!!


McGwire is IN!!!

[CoMoChief]

people say that, but it's not true. It's not like baseball was going to go away or something.

Didn't go away, but viewers and people actually going to games decreased dramatically for that time period. compared to what it was like before then

[BigRedChief]

It's really time to move on. I don't blame the players. I blame baseball. Sports is a business, and players protected their "assets" to the degree the league allowed them to do it.Baseball knew. MeGwire and Sosa were busy saving baseball and everyone just turned a blind eye to what was occuring.

If you cheated thats a deal breaker with me. You don't deserve a place in the HOF.

[wild1]

It still amazes me how many people were so eager to deny and excuse the obvious signals of steroid use at the time.

The vast, vast majority of people discussing the issue publicly during the early days of were fans finding any number of rationalizations why this or that guy or record or performance or whatever wasn't because of steroids.

Steroids won't make you hit the ball better. It was a "juiced ball". It was the conditioning. It was this or that.

When you can't get baseball fan to see past their idealism and blind passion for the game and question that maybe baseball players might be abusing steroids, how in the world can we expect the general public to see past any number of examples of BS and lying going on in other areas of public life.

It's threads like this that draw into stark contrast how widespread cognitive dissonance can be.

Obviously, people just want to excuse cheaters or their team for employing cheaters. There's always some kind of rationalization you can make rather than accept those two things.

Don't tell me the team didn't know, either. BS

[Halfcan]

color me shoked -who is next Jose canseco?

[Deberg_1990]

well ... he did it.

next year is the year!!!!


McGwire is IN!!!

Its possible...more likely he waits a few more years. But he will definately get in now.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Cardinal fans make me laugh. If Matrix were here he'd laugh too...
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frazod]

Cardinal fans make me laugh. If Matrix were here he'd laugh too...
Posted via Mobile Device

Matrix laughs at teams that haven't won a World Series since 1980-something.

[Cannibal]

Matrix laughs at teams that haven't won a World Series since 1980-something.

Maybe they should get some roid freaks?

[blaise]

It still amazes me how many people were so eager to deny and excuse the obvious signals of steroid use at the time.

The vast, vast majority of people discussing the issue publicly during the early days of were fans finding any number of rationalizations why this or that guy or record or performance or whatever wasn't because of steroids.

Steroids won't make you hit the ball better. It was a "juiced ball". It was the conditioning. It was this or that.

When you can't get baseball fan to see past their idealism and blind passion for the game and question that maybe baseball players might be abusing steroids, how in the world can we expect the general public to see past any number of examples of BS and lying going on in other areas of public life.

It's threads like this that draw into stark contrast how widespread cognitive dissonance can be.


Steroids can make your career last longer, get you feeling better in a shorter amount of time as you get older, and they increase strength, so they can improve performance. If they didn't do anything then why did so many players take them, and continue to take them despite the risk of suspension and public humilation? For fun?

[Frazod]

Maybe they should get some roid freaks?

With that giant payroll, God knows they can afford them.

[teedubya]

McGwire will NEVER admit to taken steroids.
:eek:

[BigRedChief]

Maybe they should get some roid freaks?We have a 2 year window starting next year when we have a realistic chance at a World Championship. What year will your team have their chance?

[gblowfish]

I think a lot of players in the 1990s were guilty of this. It will be a stain on the MLB record book, because these performances were all chemically enhanced.

I hate to say this, but it makes me suspicious of Cal Ripkin Jr's streak. One of the things steroids does is help you heal quickly. Not saying he did, it just seems funny that the ironman record was broken during the steroid era.

[Mr. Laz]

Its possible...more likely he waits a few more years. But he will definately get in now.
it's more than possible, it's a guaranteed freakin lock

Deberg told me so!!

[penchief]

I hate that McGwire felt he had to give an insincere apology full of BS in order to get into the HOF (he should have been in there, anyway). But this is the world we live in.

Would his numbers have been HOF worthy had he not juiced? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. If the feeling is that he would not have been a HOFamer without performance enhancing drugs I don't think you can put him in. JMO.

[penchief]

I think a lot of players in the 1990s were guilty of this. It will be a stain on the MLB record book, because these performances were all chemically enhanced.

I hate to say this, but it makes me suspicious of Cal Ripkin Jr's streak. One of the things steroids does is help you heal quickly. Not saying he did, it just seems funny that the ironman record was broken during the steroid era.

It's also not fair to those great players who didn't last as long because of injury, ala Don Mattingly. Had he had a longer healthier career he would have easily made the HOF, IMO. As it was, his last few years were hampered by a bad back and an early retirement. He'll never get consideration even though he was one of the best pure hitters of his time and may have been the best defensive first baseman of his generation (9 gold gloves in 13 years).

Mattingly was a much better player than Mark McGwire.

[Rain Man]

Mark McGwire, the big fat liar.


It's a disappointing age that we live in.

[Marcellus]

Baseball knew. MeGwire and Sosa were busy saving baseball and everyone just turned a blind eye to what was occuring.

If you cheated thats a deal breaker with me. You don't deserve a place in the HOF.

You do realize the HOF is chock full of cheaters right? Players who admittedly broke the rules of the game to win. You are aware of this correct?

Pitchers that used substances to Dr the ball. Tons of players on speed taking greenies which were against the rules.

You may want to reevaluate what you consider cheating.

I am just saying.....

[wild1]

I hate to say this, but it makes me suspicious of Cal Ripkin Jr's streak. One of the things steroids does is help you heal quickly.

Huh? Steroids help you have a long career and never get injured?

[Brock]

Huh? Steroids help you have a long career and never get injured?

Certainly could, yeah.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Matrix laughs at teams that haven't won a World Series since 1980-something.

Of course if it comes out that Pujols was on something more than protein shakes then the title the Cards won in '06 would have a big asterisk next to it.

But what am I saying? Obviously LaRussa would never let one of his star players get away with juicing.

[BigRedChief]

You do realize the HOF is chock full of cheaters right? Players who admittedly broke the rules of the game to win. You are aware of this correct?

Pitchers that used substances to Dr the ball. Tons of players on speed taking greenies which were against the rules.

You may want to reevaluate what you consider cheating.

I am just saying.....No reevlauation needed. I think Mantle, Yogi Berra and all the rest of those players of that era that admit that they took the "greenies"(speed) in the 50's and 60's should be banned. Talk about an on the field advantage? Thats how they stayed out all night drinking and then played baseball the next day.

[Cannibal]

If the Roids add 15-20 feet onto each of the homers, then you end up with A LOT home runs that would have normally been long fly outs without the Roids.

[BigRedChief]

Huh? Steroids help you have a long career and never get injured?lots of pitchers took them to help in recovery between outings, get over a strained muscle etc. Theywere just not used for building muscle and hitting home runs.

[Frazod]

Of course if it comes out that Pujols was on something more than protein shakes then the title the Cards won in '06 would have a big asterisk next to it.

But what am I saying? Obviously LaRussa would never let one of his star players get away with juicing.

Too bad Albert got suspended for 50 games last year for violating the league's-oh wait, never mind. That was Manny Ramirez.

Who does he play for again?

[L.A. Chieffan]

Too bad Albert got suspended for 50 games last year for violating the league's-oh wait, never mind. That was Manny Ramirez.

Who does he play for again?

I guess fortunately for the Dodgers they haven't benefited from cheating to win titles like other teams have.

[Frazod]

I guess fortunately for the Dodgers they haven't benefited from cheating to win titles like other teams have.

LMAO

Too bad the Dodgers hail from such a small market and have such a low payroll that they can't afford to attract any big name talent.

Baseball is so unfair like that.

[pr_capone]

Fuck Mark McGwire
Fuck Sammy Sosa
Fuck Barry Bonds
Fuck David Ortiz
Fuck Alex Rodriguez
Fuck any and all players who used PEDs and tarnished the game.

Fuck them all.

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/7233/theresthedoornowgetthef.jpg

[Marcellus]

No reevlauation needed. I think Mantle, Yogi Berra and all the rest of those players of that era that admit that they took the "greenies"(speed) in the 50's and 60's should be banned. Talk about an on the field advantage? Thats how they stayed out all night drinking and then played baseball the next day.

If that's what your criteria are, the HOF is going to be pretty empty.

I guess you have to go one way or another. I dont think cheating was looked at as such a travesty for the first 100+ years, I am not sure why it is such a huge deal now. I woudl imagine we woudl shit if we knew who all did use steroids (specifically HGH) at one time or another the last 20 years.

Teams used to abuse players who were caught stealing signs. Now there are stories of teammates tipping pitches to opposing players who are their buddies.

I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. The stats have always been distorted by drug use of one type or another, pitchers doctoring balls, the mound being raised and lowered etc...

It's all part of different times in the game. Steroid era is the steroid era. Big deal, put a notation by the record numbers and move on.

[Cannibal]

Steroid era is the steroid era. Big deal, put a notation by the record numbers and move on.

Agreed.

[BigRedChief]

If that's what your criteria are, the HOF is going to be pretty empty.Then it should be. cheating should not be rewarded.

[pr_capone]

Then it should be. cheating should not be rewarded.

Agreed.

If these guys had not cheated then the comparative numbers to get in the hall would not be so great.

Guys with shorter yet brilliant careers like Mattingly would actually have a chance to get in and deservedly so.

[Rain Man]

If the Roids add 15-20 feet onto each of the homers, then you end up with A LOT home runs that would have normally been long fly outs without the Roids.


On the home run records, they should go back for statistical purposes and shorten each hit by some measure such as the same ratio (inverted) that the player added in bicep size from the previous year. Then figure out if it would've still been a home run. You can't change the outcome of the game, but you can correct the record book.

[MichaelH]

1. Is there a single soul that didn't think he used steroids??

2. why did he lie? I don't care that he used them, I care that he lied thinking he could get out of it much like my 5 year old. FUCK him.

[Pitt Gorilla]

The thing is, people have been using all sorts of substances to try to get an advantage for YEARS. At various points, certain things were legal that later were not legal. Should Creatine count as a PED? How about Caffeine? How about protein?

Obviously, lines have been drawn and redrawn and the players that knowingly cheated should be punished, whatever that means. It's just interesting to think how the definition of cheating continues to evolve.

[pr_capone]

The thing is, people have been using all sorts of substances to try to get an advantage for YEARS. At various points, certain things were legal that later were not legal. Should Creatine count as a PED? How about Caffeine? How about protein?

Obviously, lines have been drawn and redrawn and the players that knowingly cheated should be punished, whatever that means. It's just interesting to think how the definition of cheating continues to evolve.

If it is a substance that is illegal such as amphetamines or steroids (including prescription abuse by money grubbing docs), your records should be scratched form the record books and any current contract is null and void. You wanted to leave a mark on the game and cheated to do it? Too bad... in 20 years, no one will remember your ass other than for cheating.

See how many people take (illegal) PED's then.

[L.A. Chieffan]

If it is a substance that is illegal such as amphetamines or steroids (including prescription abuse by money grubbing docs), your records should be scratched form the record books and any current contract is null and void. You wanted to leave a mark on the game and cheated to do it? Too bad... in 20 years, no one will remember your ass other than for cheating.

See how many people take (illegal) PED's then.

Amphetamines didnt become illegal till 1965 and steroids till the mid 80's. What about before then?

[pr_capone]

Amphetamines didnt become illegal till 1965 and steroids till the mid 80's. What about before then?

I'm saying that that is where I would draw the definitive line if I were in a position of power in MLB.

A line has to be drawn somewhere... seems as good a place as any to draw it.

[Jerm]

I remember LaRussa railroading the media and everyone in general for dare insinuating that McGwire used steroids....and now he doesn't have jack shit to say.

Someone should take a fucking sledgehammer to that douche's head.
Posted via Mobile Device

[kcxiv]

Ok, now lets move on.

[KC_Connection]

Would his numbers have been HOF worthy had he not juiced? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. If the feeling is that he would not have been a HOFamer without performance enhancing drugs I don't think you can put him in. JMO.

Better take out everybody currently in the HOF who took amphetamines and steroids, then. Gotta be fair.

[KC_Connection]

**** Mark McGwire
**** Sammy Sosa
**** Barry Bonds
**** David Ortiz
**** Alex Rodriguez
**** any and all players who used PEDs and tarnished the game.

**** them all.

You wouldn't have much of a sport if you kicked out all the "cheaters." That goes for any sport.

[Easy 6]

Meanwhile, back in whenever...

LaGenious (CP) says its even possible Mark Magoo could be activated... Steve Deberg @ 77 years of age or BANE w/out the Boss Sauce pinch hitting!1

[KC_Connection]

Agreed.

If these guys had not cheated then the comparative numbers to get in the hall would not be so great.

Guys with shorter yet brilliant careers like Mattingly would actually have a chance to get in and deservedly so.

Mattingly had 222 HR in 14 seasons with a .830 OPS.
McGwire had 583 HR in 16 seasons with a .982 OPS.

Carry on, then.

[el borracho]

Remember kids, there's always a right time to tell the truth.... maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but when it happens, you'll know.

I'm pretty sure the best time is after you've made several million dollars by cheating. Yeah, I'm sure all those millionaires are really sorry for cheating. :rolleyes:

[pr_capone]

Mattingly had 222 HR in 14 seasons with a .830 OPS.
McGwire had 583 HR in 16 seasons with a .982 OPS.

Carry on, then.

And that is why I hate modern baseball. All people look at anymore are offensive statistics.

Don Mattingly's Resume (13 year career)

* 6× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989)
* 9× Gold Glove Award winner (1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1985, 1986, 1987)
* 1985 AL MVP
* 1993 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* New York Yankees team captain (1991–1995)
* New York Yankees #23 retired

McGwire's Resume (18 not 16 year career and a CHEATER)

* 12× All-Star selection (1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000)
* World Series champion (1989)
* Gold Glove Award winner (1990)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1992, 1996, 1998)
* 1987 AL Rookie of the Year
* 1999 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1992 Home Run Derby winner
* Major League Baseball All-Century Team

McGwire has double the All-Star numbers but how many of those were influenced by the steroids?

Mattingly has 8 more Gold Gloves

Both 3 time silver slugger winners

Mattingly hold a MLB record with 6 GS in a single season

Learn about Mattingly before you talk like you know something.

[Frazod]

And that is why I hate modern baseball. All people look at anymore are offensive statistics.

Don Mattingly's Resume (13 year career)

* 6× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989)
* 9× Gold Glove Award winner (1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1985, 1986, 1987)
* 1985 AL MVP
* 1993 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* New York Yankees team captain (1991–1995)
* New York Yankees #23 retired

McGwire's Resume (18 not 16 year career and a CHEATER)

* 12× All-Star selection (1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000)
* World Series champion (1989)
* Gold Glove Award winner (1990)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1992, 1996, 1998)
* 1987 AL Rookie of the Year
* 1999 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1992 Home Run Derby winner
* Major League Baseball All-Century Team

McGwire has double the All-Star numbers but how many of those were influenced by the steroids?

Mattingly has 8 more Gold Gloves

Both 3 time silver slugger winners

Mattingly hold a MLB record with 6 GS in a single season

Learn about Mattingly before you talk like you know something.

How do you know Mattingly didn't pop pills or do anything else illegal? Were you in the locker room with him?

[penchief]

How do you know Mattingly didn't pop pills or do anything else illegal? Were you in the locker room with him?

Steroid use has skewed career stats so dramatically it's silly to compare the impact of steroids to those other things. No way dudes are hitting 70 and 80 homers without PEDs..

So much so that when it comes to HOF consideration it is just not fair to compare those who juiced to those who didn't.


Mattingly was a superior player to McGwire, hands down. Without steroids McGwire is likely not even a HOF candidate.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frazod]

Steroid use has skewed career stats so dramatically it's silly to compare the impact of steroids to those other things. No way dudes are hitting 70 and 80 homers without PEDs..

So much so that when it comes to HOF consideration it is just not fair to compare those who juiced to those who didn't.


Mattingly was a superior player to McGwire, hands down. Without steroids McGwire is likely not even a HOF candidate.
Posted via Mobile Device

Hey, cheating is cheating. On a 100 degree day in July, a couple of uppers between innings might add the pep in somebody's step that makes the difference between the beginning of a highlight double play and a two base error. How many of those add up to a Gold Glove?

I mean, as long as we've all turned into a bunch of fucking old women, why discriminate?

[Mecca]

So there are people that actually still care about this?

[Frazod]

So there are people that actually still care about this?

It LED OFF THE NEWS on the local news radio station. Top story - Mark McGwire admits to using steroids.

Good to know that's more important than the war or the economy - a player retired since 2001 admitting to something everybody has already known for years.

Jesus. :shake:

[Mecca]

Tons of pro sports players are doing roids and other shit, if it really bugs someone a lot you should stop following sports.

Baseball is taking the rap but the NFL is the league that is full of obvious abusers, that shit ain't natural.

[007]

So what. Who cares anymore.

[kcxiv]

We al need to boycott every single sport!!!!!!!!!!!!

It happens so what. People are getting bigger as they eat better and lift weights more seriously. So oh well, baseball is still entertaining to me and i still get Extra innings. so i am good.

[penchief]

Hey, cheating is cheating. On a 100 degree day in July, a couple of uppers between innings might add the pep in somebody's step that makes the difference between the beginning of a highlight double play and a two base error. How many of those add up to a Gold Glove?

I mean, as long as we've all turned into a bunch of fucking old women, why discriminate?

Well, we know that McGwire padded his career power numbers immensely by juicing.

Speculating that those who didn't juice also may have padded their stats with uppers is niothing more than a justification for something that skewed career stats so dramatically that baseball will be forever marred.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frazod]

Well, we know that McGwire padded his career power numbers immensely by juicing.

Speculating that those who didn't juice also may have padded their stats with uppers is niothing more than a justification for something that skewed career stats so dramatically that baseball will be forever marred.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just saying that you know jack shit/nothing about what Mattingly or anybody else did or didn't do to enhance their performance.

It should also be noted that McGwire's roid run with St. Louis resulted in the Cardinals winning ZERO pennants and ZERO world championships. About the only thing that did come from this period (other than a joyous competition with Sosa that revitalized interest in the sport) was a single season home run record that was subsequently broken by Bonds, who will probably come clean about his steroid use about the time the sun goes super nova. You want to put an asterisk by it - fine. Put one by Bonds' as well, and while you're at it, put one by Maris', since he had more games to work with than Ruth did.

[KC_Connection]

And that is why I hate modern baseball. All people look at anymore are offensive statistics.

Don Mattingly's Resume (13 year career)

* 6× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989)
* 9× Gold Glove Award winner (1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1985, 1986, 1987)
* 1985 AL MVP
* 1993 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* New York Yankees team captain (1991–1995)
* New York Yankees #23 retired

McGwire's Resume (18 not 16 year career and a CHEATER)

* 12× All-Star selection (1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000)
* World Series champion (1989)
* Gold Glove Award winner (1990)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1992, 1996, 1998)
* 1987 AL Rookie of the Year
* 1999 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1992 Home Run Derby winner
* Major League Baseball All-Century Team

McGwire has double the All-Star numbers but how many of those were influenced by the steroids?

Mattingly has 8 more Gold Gloves

Both 3 time silver slugger winners

Mattingly hold a MLB record with 6 GS in a single season

Learn about Mattingly before you talk like you know something.

#1. Is it just me, or does McGwire's resume look a lot better? Especially when you account for the massive statistical difference.
#2. Mattingly could have taken steroids for all you know, just like everybody else.
#3. McGwire outclasses Mattingly so badly offensively that even the upgrade of Mattingly defensively can't come close to touching McGwire.
#4. Please don't use Gold Gloves as a measure of defense...they are more a measure of good offensive players that "look" good defensively. Jeter, for example, has four of them and he's a poor defensive SS. And the fact that McGwire actually won one should tell you that.

Learn something about baseball history before you go ranting about steroids and cheating in baseball.

[KC_Connection]

Everyone should read this essay, btw: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...es-on-steroids

[Frazod]

Everyone should read this essay, btw: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...es-on-steroids

Your link is full of FAIL.

[KC_Connection]

Well, we know that McGwire padded his career power numbers immensely by juicing.

Speculating that those who didn't juice also may have padded their stats with uppers is niothing more than a justification for something that skewed career stats so dramatically that baseball will be forever marred.
Posted via Mobile Device

How do you know Mattingly wasn't "naturally" a 15 HR hitter who upped his totals to 25-30 with steroids?

[KC_Connection]

Your link is full of FAIL.

Indeed. Try this.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/510/bill-james-on-steroids

[DeezNutz]

How do you know Mattingly wasn't "naturally" a 15 HR hitter who upped his totals to 25-30 with steroids?

I looked into his eyes in a YouTube video.

[Frazod]

Indeed. Try this.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/510/bill-james-on-steroids

Better, but I'm not reading all that crap at a quarter 'till midnight. I'll give it a look tomorrow.

[KC_Connection]

Better, but I'm not reading all that crap at a quarter 'till midnight. I'll give it a look tomorrow.

It's long, but it's worth it.

[KC_Connection]

I looked into his eyes in a YouTube video.

If only baseball allowed highlights on YouTube. Another reason to hate Selig.

[Royal Fanatic]

Personally I dont care that hitters use them, because for one, hand eye coordination in hitting a baseball is about 95% of hitting.
FAIL.

Every time I hear this I want to puke. NOBODY says that you turn a bad hitter into a good one by putting him on the juice. But you CAN take a good hitter and turn him into GODZILLA by putting him on the juice.

Barry Bonds was a very good hitter before he started using steroids. For the first 14 years of his career he averaged 31 home runs per year and hit .287. Those are nice numbers, but they're nothing compared to the numbers Bonds put up after he became a steroid user. After he went on the juice, he began one of the most remarkable runs in baseball history. For the next 5 years he averaged 51 home runs per year and hit .341, and he hit that ridiculous total of 73 home runs in 2001. 73 home runs is almost as ridiculous as averaging 51 home runs over a 5-year period when the MOST he ever hit in a season prior to that was 49. And he started this incredible run when he was 36 years old, just about the age when most hitters seriously decline.

You want to talk just about Mark McGwire? OK. For the first 6 full years of his career he hit an average of 36 home runs with a batting average of .247. That includes his phenomenal rookie season when he hit 49 home runs. Then he was injured so often the next 3 years that he contemplated retirement. Then he went on the juice, and for the next 6 years he hit an average of 50 home runs with a batting average of .283.

There's a helluva difference between an average of 36 home runs and an average of 50. 36 home runs is a nice year. 50 home runs used to be an all-time great year until the steroid era screwed up the home run stats forever.

The numbers don't lie. Steroids turn good hitters into all-time great hitters.

Yes, hand-eye coordination is a prerequisite to good hitting. But steroids make a huge fucking difference. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't understand baseball.

And while we're at it, I think Dick Vitale made a great point this morning on ESPN. Mark McGwire is probably more to blame for the steroid era than anyone else. After his success, EVERYBODY started doing it, because they saw what it did for him. Barry Bonds' girlfriend was quoted in The Book of Shadows as saying that Bonds was pissed about all of the love McGwire was getting, and that's why he decided to go on the juice.

It would be a travesty if Mark McGwire is ever elected to the Hall of Fame.

[penchief]

How do you know Mattingly wasn't "naturally" a 15 HR hitter who upped his totals to 25-30 with steroids?

You mean other than the obvious visual evidence? Mattingly was a small guy. He was 5'8" and wieghed less than 170 lbs when he first came into the league and probably wieghed about 180 lbs when he retired.

Mattingly was not a HR hitter in the Dave Kingman sense, ala McGwire. Mattingly was a pure hitter who hit the ball hard to all fields and for average. When he was healthy there was probably not a better pure hitter in the game.

As far as defense goes, Mattingly didn't just win 9 gold gloves. He was a spectacular defensive first baseman. Easily the best in the game.

My point is that if steroids not only ballooned McGwires offensive numbers but helped keep him on the field what could they have done for Mattingly's numbers by keeping him healthy and increasing his power numbers? All things being equal, Mattingly was a much better baseball player all-around.

When considering people for the hall of fame, steroid use should be a negative. Because not only are the numbers not authentic but it is unfair to the players that did not take steroids in order to pad their numbers via both increased strength and greater longevity, ala McGwire.

[Cannibal]

On the home run records, they should go back for statistical purposes and shorten each hit by some measure such as the same ratio (inverted) that the player added in bicep size from the previous year. Then figure out if it would've still been a home run. You can't change the outcome of the game, but you can correct the record book.

That might get a little complicated. In my opinion, an asterisk is going to have to suffice.

[penchief]

FAIL.

Every time I hear this I want to puke. NOBODY says that you turn a bad hitter into a good one by putting him on the juice. But you CAN take a good hitter and turn him into GODZILLA by putting him on the juice.

Barry Bonds was a very good hitter before he started using steroids. For the first 14 years of his career he averaged 31 home runs per year and hit .287. Those are nice numbers, but they're nothing compared to the numbers Bonds put up after he became a steroid user. After he went on the juice, he began one of the most remarkable runs in baseball history. For the next 5 years he averaged 51 home runs per year and hit .341, and he hit that ridiculous total of 73 home runs in 2001. 73 home runs is almost as ridiculous as averaging 51 home runs over a 5-year period when the MOST he ever hit in a season prior to that was 49. And he started this incredible run when he was 36 years old, just about the age when most hitters seriously decline.

You want to talk just about Mark McGwire? OK. For the first 6 full years of his career he hit an average of 36 home runs with a batting average of .247. That includes his phenomenal rookie season when he hit 49 home runs. Then he was injured so often the next 3 years that he contemplated retirement. Then he went on the juice, and for the next 6 years he hit an average of 50 home runs with a batting average of .283.

There's a helluva difference between an average of 36 home runs and an average of 50. 36 home runs is a nice year. 50 home runs used to be an all-time great year until the steroid era screwed up the home run stats forever.

The numbers don't lie. Steroids turn good hitters into all-time great hitters.

Yes, hand-eye coordination is a prerequisite to good hitting. But steroids make a huge ****ing difference. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't understand baseball.

And while we're at it, I think Dick Vitale made a great point this morning on ESPN. Mark McGwire is probably more to blame for the steroid era than anyone else. After his success, EVERYBODY started doing it, because they saw what it did for him. Barry Bonds' girlfriend was quoted in The Book of Shadows as saying that Bonds was pissed about all of the love McGwire was getting, and that's why he decided to go on the juice.

It would be a travesty if Mark McGwire is ever elected to the Hall of Fame.

Exactly. McGwire wouldn't even be sniffing the HOF if he hadn't juiced.

[Consistent1]

I could say a lot about this topic again. I am just going to leave it short this time....some of you guys should stop watching the NFL if your problem with this stuff is so huge. And YES, losing teams take part also...

[wild1]

Who gives a rip how many times someone appeared in the All-Star game? Why should that be part of their hall of fame resume? Because McGwire was a one-dimensional player?

[Demonpenz]

Hall Of Fame ....Fame meaning people reconize you all star balloting is by fans...

[wild1]

Hall Of Fame ....Fame meaning people reconize you all star balloting is by fans...

Every year deserving players are left out of the all star game. A star player can be hurt most of the year and still go... some people on the downside of their careers get selected just on name... it's not some measure of ability.

[pr_capone]

FAIL.

Every time I hear this I want to puke. NOBODY says that you turn a bad hitter into a good one by putting him on the juice. But you CAN take a good hitter and turn him into GODZILLA by putting him on the juice.

Barry Bonds was a very good hitter before he started using steroids. For the first 14 years of his career he averaged 31 home runs per year and hit .287. Those are nice numbers, but they're nothing compared to the numbers Bonds put up after he became a steroid user. After he went on the juice, he began one of the most remarkable runs in baseball history. For the next 5 years he averaged 51 home runs per year and hit .341, and he hit that ridiculous total of 73 home runs in 2001. 73 home runs is almost as ridiculous as averaging 51 home runs over a 5-year period when the MOST he ever hit in a season prior to that was 49. And he started this incredible run when he was 36 years old, just about the age when most hitters seriously decline.

You want to talk just about Mark McGwire? OK. For the first 6 full years of his career he hit an average of 36 home runs with a batting average of .247. That includes his phenomenal rookie season when he hit 49 home runs. Then he was injured so often the next 3 years that he contemplated retirement. Then he went on the juice, and for the next 6 years he hit an average of 50 home runs with a batting average of .283.

There's a helluva difference between an average of 36 home runs and an average of 50. 36 home runs is a nice year. 50 home runs used to be an all-time great year until the steroid era screwed up the home run stats forever.

The numbers don't lie. Steroids turn good hitters into all-time great hitters.

Yes, hand-eye coordination is a prerequisite to good hitting. But steroids make a huge ****ing difference. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't understand baseball.

And while we're at it, I think Dick Vitale made a great point this morning on ESPN. Mark McGwire is probably more to blame for the steroid era than anyone else. After his success, EVERYBODY started doing it, because they saw what it did for him. Barry Bonds' girlfriend was quoted in The Book of Shadows as saying that Bonds was pissed about all of the love McGwire was getting, and that's why he decided to go on the juice.

It would be a travesty if Mark McGwire is ever elected to the Hall of Fame.

You mean other than the obvious visual evidence? Mattingly was a small guy. He was 5'8" and wieghed less than 170 lbs when he first came into the league and probably wieghed about 180 lbs when he retired.

Mattingly was not a HR hitter in the Dave Kingman sense, ala McGwire. Mattingly was a pure hitter who hit the ball hard to all fields and for average. When he was healthy there was probably not a better pure hitter in the game.

As far as defense goes, Mattingly didn't just win 9 gold gloves. He was a spectacular defensive first baseman. Easily the best in the game.

My point is that if steroids not only ballooned McGwires offensive numbers but helped keep him on the field what could they have done for Mattingly's numbers by keeping him healthy and increasing his power numbers? All things being equal, Mattingly was a much better baseball player all-around.

When considering people for the hall of fame, steroid use should be a negative. Because not only are the numbers not authentic but it is unfair to the players that did not take steroids in order to pad their numbers via both increased strength and greater longevity, ala McGwire.

QFMFT

[Demonpenz]

Every year deserving players are left out of the all star game. A star player can be hurt most of the year and still go... some people on the downside of their careers get selected just on name... it's not some measure of ability.

cool, just explaining why they take account how many all star gams

[Royal Fanatic]

I could say a lot about this topic again. I am just going to leave it short this time....some of you guys should stop watching the NFL if your problem with this stuff is so huge. And YES, losing teams take part also...
Obviously a fan who doesn't understand baseball.

[KC_Connection]

You mean other than the obvious visual evidence? Mattingly was a small guy. He was 5'8" and wieghed less than 170 lbs when he first came into the league and probably wieghed about 180 lbs when he retired.
What the hell does "visual evidence" mean? Are you saying the small guys can't have taken steroids? You might want to look up some of the players that have actually been caught over the years. It's really just a myth that there is a body type for a steroid user.

Mattingly played in the same era that hundreds of other players used steroids, why are we supposed to believe he was one of the few "natural" ones?

[KC_Connection]

The numbers don't lie. Steroids turn good hitters into all-time great hitters.

Yes, hand-eye coordination is a prerequisite to good hitting. But steroids make a huge ****ing difference. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't understand baseball.


Actually, it really all depends how much work you put into it. The hardest workers get the most out of steroids. For most players, steroids didn't have much of an effect at all. But for guys that worked out as strictly as Bonds and McGwire, they got a lot out of them.


And while we're at it, I think Dick Vitale made a great point this morning on ESPN. Mark McGwire is probably more to blame for the steroid era than anyone else. After his success, EVERYBODY started doing it, because they saw what it did for him.

It's amazing how much ignorance there is about this topic. Steroids have been used in baseball since the early 70s (at the latest). And their peak use in baseball was in the mid 90s before McGwire's epic year. Of course...they are still being used by many players right now...just undetectably.


Barry Bonds' girlfriend was quoted in The Book of Shadows as saying that Bonds was pissed about all of the love McGwire was getting, and that's why he decided to go on the juice.
The first true thing you've written. Bonds' jealousy and need to get more attention than his peers led him to steroid use.


It would be a travesty if Mark McGwire is ever elected to the Hall of Fame.
I would consider it a travesty if he wasn't. And the same goes for Bonds, Clemens, Rodriguez, Ramirez, and Sosa.

Without those guys (some of the best players of all time), it's not like you have much of a Hall of Fame anyway.

[KC_Connection]

Obviously a fan who doesn't understand baseball.

Obviously a fan who doesn't understand the history of baseball. Why is steroid use worse than amphetamine use?

[penchief]

What the hell does "visual evidence" mean? Are you saying the small guys can't have taken steroids? You might want to look up some of the players that have actually been caught over the years. It's really just a myth that there is a body type for a steroid user.

Mattingly played in the same era that hundreds of other players used steroids, why are we supposed to believe he was one of the few "natural" ones?

Mattingly's health was already declining by the time McGwire first started juicing. Why do you presume that Mattingly would not have received the same benifits that Mcgwire received. As his health declined so did his stats. The exact opposite is true for McGwire. Not only did he start breaking records once he started juicing he turned into the incredible hulk. The minimal weight gain that Mattingly expierenced over the length of his career (10 lbs?) Is easily explained by the natural filling out that takes place with men of that age.

It amazes me that so many are willing to point the finger at anyone and everyone in order to condone the poor conduct of someone they support.

The truth is that McGwire is a fraud who has no business anywhere near the HOF. Anyone with an analytic mind and a pair of eyes can see that he put up those record stats and gained 50lbs after he started juicing. That is evidence. No such comparison can be made to Mattingly. If so, where is the evidence?
Posted via Mobile Device

[KC_Connection]

Mattingly's health was already declining by the time McGwire first started juicing. Why do you presume that Mattingly would not have received the same benifits that Mcgwire received.

Not everybody receives the same benefit from them as others. They aren't some magic drug that suddenly makes a person stronger....you need to put the work in.


As his health declined so did his stats. The exact opposite is true for McGwire. Not only did he start breaking records once he started juicing he turned into the incredible hulk. The minimal weight gain that Mattingly expierenced over the length of his career (10 lbs?) Is easily explained by the natural filling out that takes place with men of that age.

You can't get more inexact than speculation based on how somebody "looks." Countless "skinny" players have been caught over the last few years....even a lot of "speed" guys.


It amazes me that so many are willing to point the finger at anyone and everyone in order to condone the poor conduct of someone they support.

I'm not a fan of McGwire, nor do I support his use of steroids. I'm merely realistic about the use of steroids in baseball (and in all of sports for that matter). Stop being naive and realize that the majority of players were using...and many of them still are.



The truth is that McGwire is a fraud who has no business anywhere near the HOF. Anyone with an analytic mind and a pair of eyes can see that he put up those record stats and gained 50lbs after he started juicing. That is evidence. No such comparison can be made to Mattingly. If so, where is the evidence?
Posted via Mobile Device
If McGwire doesn't make the HOF, then you have to pull out guys like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays for amphetamines, do you not? What's the difference?

And don't you then also have to investigate everybody who ever made the HOF to see if they ever did something illegal, and also take them out too?

[penchief]

Not everybody receives the same benefit from them as others. They aren't some magic drug that suddenly makes a person stronger....you need to put the work in.


You can't get more inexact than speculation based on how somebody "looks." Countless "skinny" players have been caught over the last few years....even a lot of "speed" guys.


I'm not a fan of McGwire, nor do I support his use of steroids. I'm merely realistic about the use of steroids in baseball (and in all of sports for that matter). Stop being naive and realize that the majority of players were using...and many of them still are.



If McGwire doesn't make the HOF, then you have to pull out guys like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays for amphetamines, do you not? What's the difference?

And don't you then also have to investigate everybody who ever made the HOF to see if they ever did something illegal, and also take them out too?

The real tragedy is that clean players not only had their legitimate stats cheapened by those who cheated but also that they have to suffer insult to injury by being painted with the same brush as those who cheated.

The other false premise being peddled is the notion that steroids are no different than uppers. The impact steroids has had on the record books is devastating and irreversable. To compare the two is nothing more than a talking point for apologists of those who used steroids to enhance their performance.
Posted via Mobile Device

[TigerPig]

If the real HR king Roger Maris isn't even in the HOF, then why should these juicing clownshoes be?

[KC_Connection]

The real tragedy is that clean players not only had their legitimate stats cheapened by those who cheated but also that they have to suffer insult to injury by being painted with the same brush as those who cheated.

That's a shame, but it's the world we live in. If 80% of the people in the sport are "cheating," does it remain "cheating?" It sucks for the 20%, I suppose...but what are you going to do...ban the 80% and destroy the product on the field? Not likely.



The other false premise being peddled is the notion that steroids are no different than uppers. The impact steroids has had on the record books is devastating and irreversable. To compare the two is nothing more than a talking point for apologists of those who used steroids to enhance their performance.
Posted via Mobile Device
Amphetamines allowed baseball players (and still do allow baseball players) to play the game every single day. Without them, we wouldn't have seen many guys put up the numbers they did or play as long as they did. Actually, I can't think of any drug that would have more of an impact than those things...that's why they were used even more frequently than steroids.

Edit: Both were illegal drugs that players used to enhance their performance, btw. What am I missing here?

[penchief]

That's a shame, but it's the world we live in. If 80% of the people in the sport are "cheating," does it remain "cheating?" It sucks for the 20%, I suppose...but what are you going to do...ban the 80% and destroy the product on the field? Not likely.



Amphetamines allowed baseball players (and still do allow baseball players) to play the game every single day. Without them, we wouldn't have seen many guys put up the numbers they did or play as long as they did. Actually, I can't think of any drug that would have more of an impact than those things...that's why they were used even more frequently than steroids.

Edit: Both were illegal drugs that players used to enhance their performance, btw. What am I missing here?

If uppers had increased a player's strength to the point of hitting homers every six or seven times at bat I suppose you might have a valid point. But steroids didn't just help McGwire stay on the field. They made him into an unnatural freak who was able to turn pop flies into home runs.

That's a big difference. And it's a big enough difference to deem his numbers as not authentic and his playing career not worthy of the HOF. And his numbers should not be compared to those who didn't juice. Had he not juiced he would never have come close to HOF consideration.

By the way, I think your 80% figure is considerably high. The "everybody does it" excuse won't diminish the fact that McGwire's numbers are fraudulent. The fact that his numbers spike unnaturally during the time he was juicing should be evidence enough to the objective mind.

[Consistent1]

Obviously a fan who doesn't understand the history of baseball. Why is steroid use worse than amphetamine use?

That, plus the fact that steroids weren't invented in the 90's like some of these guys seem to imply.

[penchief]

That, plus the fact that steroids weren't invented in the 90's like some of these guys seem to imply.

So if someone were able to take a substance that gave them the strength to hit a home run every time they stepped up to the plate, that is the same thing as taking an upper because one is exhausted?

Please, the world isn't black and white so we as people have to be able to make distinctions. The inability to to make distinctions between varying degrees of conduct would render objectivity nonexistent.

[Brock]

So if someone were able to take a substance that gave them the strength to hit a home run every time they stepped up to the plate, that is the same thing as taking an upper because one is exhausted?

Please, the world isn't black and white so we as people have to be able to make distinctions. The inability to to make distinctions between varying degrees of conduct would render objectivity nonexistent.

Cheating=cheating.

[BigRedChief]

Cheating=cheating.on this we agree. Taking speed in the 50's and 60's. Steroids in the 90's. Cheating is never acceptable.

[Royal Fanatic]

Amphetamines allowed baseball players (and still do allow baseball players) to play the game every single day. Without them, we wouldn't have seen many guys put up the numbers they did or play as long as they did. Actually, I can't think of any drug that would have more of an impact than those things...that's why they were used even more frequently than steroids.

Edit: Both were illegal drugs that players used to enhance their performance, btw. What am I missing here?
Here is what you're missing: Nobody was able to use amphetamines to hit 70 home runs (McGwire), 73 home runs (Bonds), or AVERAGE 60 HOME RUNS PER YEAR OVER A FOUR YEAR PERIOD (Sammy Fucking Sosa).

Before steroids, there were two guys in the entire 20th century who had extraordinary years (obviously Ruth and Maris), and they each hit 60 home runs ONCE in their careers. After steroids, home runs were so cheap that a journeyman like Sammy Sosa could bulk up and crush the home records of the all-time greats.

If you think amphetamines are even in the same ballpark as steroids, you obviously know nothing about baseball.

[Brock]

If you think amphetamines are even in the same ballpark as steroids, you obviously know nothing about baseball.

They are in the same ballpark. They're both against the rules.

I admit I don't give a shit about baseball's sacred records.

[Royal Fanatic]

They are in the same ballpark. They're both against the rules.

I admit I don't give a shit about baseball's sacred records.
Then why are you even in the discussion?

[Brock]

Then why are you even in the discussion?

Because this discussion isn't about that, dumbass.

[wild1]

Canseco says McGwire still lying

Jose Canseco says Mark McGwire is still lying about his use of steroids and his former manager Tony La Russa isn’t telling the truth either.

McGwire admitted Monday that he used steroids for a decade, including when he hit 70 homers in 1998, but denied Canseco’s claims that he injected himself and McGwire with steroids in bathroom stalls.

“I’ve defended Mark, I know a lot of good things about him,” Canseco told ESPN 1000 radio in Chicago on Tuesday. “I can’t believe he just called me a a liar. Umm, there’s something very strange going on here.

“I even polygraphed that I injected him, and I passed it completely. So I want to challenge him on national TV to a polygraph examination. I want to see him call me a liar under a polygraph examination.”

In Canseco’s 2005 book, “Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant ‘Roids, Smash Hits, and How Baseball Got Big,” Canseco claimed he introduced McGwire and other stars to steroids and performance-enhancing drugs. He wrote about injecting himself and McGwire in bathroom stalls, and how the effects of the drugs were the reason he hit 462 career home runs.

Canseco and McGwire helped lead the Athletics to a World Series sweep in 1989.

“Jose is out there doing what he’s doing, but I’m not going to stoop down to his level,” McGwire told ESPN on Tuesday. “None of that stuff happened. He knows it. I know it. I’m not going to stoop down to that level.”

La Russa was McGwire’s manager for nearly all of his 16-year career in both Oakland and St. Louis. He was also his fiercest defender, especially after The Associated Press reported McGwire used androstenedione during his record-breaking season in ’98. Andro, as it was known, was made a controlled substance until 2004, when it also was banned by baseball.

The manager said he didn’t know until Monday that McGwire used steroids.

“That’s a blatant lie,” Canseco said. “There are some things here that are so ridiculous, and so disrespectful for the public and the media to believe. I just can’t believe it. I’m in total shock. These guys remind me of politicians that go up and just lie to the public and expect to get elected.”

McGwire, who retired in 2001, had been widely ridiculed since he evaded questions before a congressional committee five years ago, repeatedly saying he wasn’t there to address his past. His confession was sparked by the Cardinals’ decision in October to hire him as hitting coach.

Canseco has said he is considering filing a class-action lawsuit against Major League Baseball and the players’ association. He says he’s been ostracized for going public with tales of steroids use in the sport.

“I’ve proved it. I’m 100 percent accurate,” he told the radio station. “I never exaggerate, I told it the way it actually happened. I’m the only one who told it the way it actually happened.”

[wild1]

So, Conseco was right after all in the end about McGwire and roids.

Now he says that LaRussa knew he was juicing and is lying about it. Strange who has the credibility now....

[Frazod]

So, Conseco was right after all in the end about McGwire and roids.

Now he says that LaRussa knew he was juicing and is lying about it. Strange who has the credibility now....

Yeah, some vile rat bastard who lines his own pockets by selling his friends and teammates down the river for doing the same thing that MADE HIM RICH AND SUCCESSFUL in the first place is the King of Fucking Credibility in my book..... :shake:

[wild1]

Yeah, some vile rat bastard who lines his own pockets by selling his friends and teammates down the river for doing the same thing that MADE HIM RICH AND SUCCESSFUL in the first place is the King of ****ing Credibility in my book..... :shake:

I don't like the guy either, but it turns out that he was telling the truth on at least some of these topics. Why wouldn't I also believe that his team and manager knew about it all along? McGwire is the one who's been lying about this forever, not Canseco

[Frazod]

I don't like the guy either, but it turns out that he was telling the truth on at least some of these topics. Why wouldn't I also believe that his team and manager knew about it all along? McGwire is the one who's been lying about this forever, not Canseco

I think Cansucko would lie, cheat, steal, do anything to anybody, to make a buck.

I know McGwire, Sosa and Bonds did steroids because it's obvious by looking at them - not because of anything this piece of fucking shit said.

And as far as I'm concerned, taking steroids is much farther down the scumbag ladder than personal betrayal.

[Royal Fanatic]

They are in the same ballpark. They're both against the rules.

I admit I don't give a shit about baseball's sacred records.

Then why are you even in the discussion?

Because this discussion isn't about that, dumbass.
So, you think the total obliteration of some of the most revered records in baseball by some drugged-up cheaters ISN'T part of the discussion regarding Mark McGwire and steroid use?

One of the two of us IS a dumbass, that's for sure. But it's not me.

You've already stated that you don't give a shit about baseball's sacred records. That shows that you are, at best, a CASUAL baseball fan, you know nothing about the unique appeal of baseball over other sports, and you should probably refrain from offering an opinion in any thread about baseball.

By the way, why are you so defensive about steroid abusers, anyway? Have you been sticking the needle in your own butt?

[L.A. Chieffan]

LaRussa is as much to blame for roids in baseball as anybody else. Shit, Bash Brothers in the late 80's and then McGwire in the late 90's, and who knows whats going on under his watch now.

[Frazod]

LaRussa is as much to blame for roids in baseball as anybody else. Shit, Bash Brothers in the late 80's and then McGwire in the late 90's, and who knows whats going on under his watch now.

So if Manny gets popped again, how long will his next suspension be?

[Royal Fanatic]

LaRussa is as much to blame for roids in baseball as anybody else. Shit, Bash Brothers in the late 80's and then McGwire in the late 90's, and who knows whats going on under his watch now.
Go ahead. Say it. :evil:

[Royal Fanatic]

So if Manny gets popped again, how long will his next suspension be?
Manny should be banned for life just for being Manny.

[Brock]

So, you think the total obliteration of some of the most revered records in baseball by some drugged-up cheaters ISN'T part of the discussion regarding Mark McGwire and steroid use?

One of the two of us IS a dumbass, that's for sure. But it's not me.

You've already stated that you don't give a shit about baseball's sacred records. That shows that you are, at best, a CASUAL baseball fan, you know nothing about the unique appeal of baseball over other sports, and you should probably refrain from offering an opinion in any thread about baseball.

By the way, why are you so defensive about steroid abusers, anyway? Have you been sticking the needle in your own butt?

I don't give a shit about records in sports period. If that makes me a casual fan in your opinion, I could give a fuck. :whackit:

Secondly, these guys aren't the first guys to cheat, and they won't be the last. There's cheaters all over your precious fucking hall of fame, and my sole contribution to this thread, which is obviously populated by "serious baseball fans" :rolleyes: such as yourself, is that you shouldn't excuse cheating in the past by saying "so what, no records were broken by those guys".

[Royal Fanatic]

I don't give a shit about records in sports period. If that makes me a casual fan in your opinion, I could give a fuck. :whackit:

Secondly, these guys aren't the first guys to cheat, and they won't be the last. There's cheaters all over your precious fucking hall of fame, and my sole contribution to this thread, which is obviously populated by "serious baseball fans" :rolleyes: such as yourself, is that you shouldn't excuse cheating in the past by saying "so what, no records were broken by those guys".
My first thought was "Hopefully Brock has better takes on football than he does on baseball". But then I remembered this (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=6328474#post6328474).

Apparently your football knowledge is roughly equivalent to your baseball knowledge. For a guy with over 23,000 posts on a sports-oriented forum, that's pretty sad.

Now I can't say that I had either the time or the inclination to read a representative sample of your 23,000 posts in order to conclude that you have no idea what you're talking about. However, if the majority of those 23,000 posts are as ignorant as the posts you've made recently, I think my conclusion is pretty solid.

You must spend a hell of a lot of time doing :whackit:. I'm guessing, what, 3 to 4 times a day?

[BigRedChief]

LaRussa is as much to blame for roids in baseball as anybody else. Shit, Bash Brothers in the late 80's and then McGwire in the late 90's, and who knows whats going on under his watch now.It was all over baseball. It's not the fault of a single manager.

[KC_Connection]

If uppers had increased a player's strength to the point of hitting homers every six or seven times at bat I suppose you might have a valid point. But steroids didn't just help McGwire stay on the field. They made him into an unnatural freak who was able to turn pop flies into home runs.

Amphetamines actually allowed the players the ability and stamina to put up the numbers in the first place. Guys like Hank Aaron extended their careers past 20+ years because of drugs like this. How is that not more important? How is that not enhancement? It just seems to me like an enormous double standard for you to sit here and forgive others for doing exactly the same thing.



By the way, I think your 80% figure is considerably high.
That's because you are incredibly naive.

The "everybody does it" excuse won't diminish the fact that McGwire's numbers are fraudulent. The fact that his numbers spike unnaturally during the time he was juicing should be evidence enough to the objective mind.
Read the Bill James essay for an actual objective take on this issue from somebody who actually knows what the hell he's talking about.

[KC_Connection]

Cheating=cheating.

If you really want to get technical, neither amphetamine or steroid use was ever cheating (not until 2003, anyway). The use of those drugs without a prescription was against the law, but they were never against the rules of the sport (and both were widely endorsed by the MLB establishment for years).

[KC_Connection]

Here is what you're missing: Nobody was able to use amphetamines to hit 70 home runs (McGwire), 73 home runs (Bonds), or AVERAGE 60 HOME RUNS PER YEAR OVER A FOUR YEAR PERIOD (Sammy ****ing Sosa).

So, basically, your main issue is that Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa were very good and "ruined" the numbers that other "cheaters" like Aaron and Mays put up. To you, that makes their "cheating" somehow worse, even though the majority of the pitchers those guys faced were also on steroids. I don't get that myself, it seems rather hypocritical.


If you think amphetamines are even in the same ballpark as steroids, you obviously know nothing about baseball.
You apparently know nothing about the strong effects of amphetamine use. Once again, there is a reason the players used greenies for years...and it wasn't because it had no effect on their play.

[KC_Connection]

They are in the same ballpark. They're both against the rules.

I admit I don't give a shit about baseball's sacred records.

There is no such thing as a sacred record. Not in baseball, anyway...it's a sport of cheaters. Players have always looked for ways to get ahead and they always will.

[penchief]

Because this discussion isn't about that, dumbass.

Yes it is. It's about whether the numbers that McGwire put up because of his juicing makes him worthy of the Hall of Fame.

[Brock]

No it isn't. It's about cheating, and why you excuse some cheaters but condemn others.

[Frazod]

I would also surmise from the way penchief is dangling off Mattingly's nuts that he's a Yankmee fan. Speaking of unfair advantages, how about that payroll, eh?

Or do unfair advantages have to be injected into your ass by Jose Canseco to count?

[penchief]

No it isn't. It's about cheating, and why you excuse some cheaters but condemn others.

So I'll ask the question again. If a player who played shortstop and never hit a home run his entire career suddenly started injecting a substance that allowed him to hit a home run every time at bat would that make him a Hall of Famer?

If a player's numbers are arrived at artificially then I don't think he can be considered a Hall of Famer. As far as the uppers go, if I had enough evidence to believe that they skewed the playing field as much as steroids did I'd probably agree with you. But the evidence that we have doesn't suggest that is so. The steroid numbers stick out like sore thumb.

I'm not excusing some cheaters and condemning others. I making a distinction between the impact that steroids had on the game's numbers vs. the impact that amphetamines had on the game's numbers. You can't point to uppers and say, "look how much more inflated his statistics are because of uppers." But you can point to someone who has been juicing and say, "wow, the difference before he started juicing and after he started juicing is incredible."

[penchief]

I would also surmise from the way penchief is dangling off Mattingly's nuts that he's a Yankmee fan. Speaking of unfair advantages, how about that payroll, eh?

Or do unfair advantages have to be injected into your ass by Jose Canseco to count?

Yes, I've been a Yankee fan since 1970. But the reason I point to Mattingly is because he is a classic example of a great player who won't make the HOF because of injury and premature retirement. The same fate that probably would have been in store for McGwire had he not taken steroids.

So I'm not saying Mattingly should be in the HOF because I don't necessarily believe that. He didn't have the necessary longevity and he fell probably two additional HOF caliber seasons away. What I am saying is that Mattingly was the superior player and therefore, no way McGwire deserves HOF consideration based on the numbers he put up fraudulently.

Rewarding those who juiced by validating the numbers they put up when juicing cheapens the accomplishments of those players who didn't cheat (past and present) while also doing a disservice to the integrity of the game.

JMO.

[Frazod]

Yes, I've been a Yankee fan since 1970. But the reason I point to Mattingly is because he is a classic example of a great player who won't make the HOF because of injury and premature retirement. The same fate that probably would have been in store for McGwire had he not taken steroids.

So I'm not saying Mattingly should be in the HOF because I don't necessarily believe that. He didn't have the necessary longevity and he fell probably two additional HOF caliber seasons away. What I am saying is that Mattingly was the superior player and therefore, no way McGwire deserves HOF consideration based on the numbers he put up fraudulently.

Rewarding those who juiced by validating the numbers they put up when juicing cheapens the accomplishments of those players who didn't cheat (past and present) while also doing a disservice to the integrity of the game.

JMO.

Boy, you certainly ignored the hell out of my question, didn't you?

[Baby Lee]

There is a qualitative difference between 'performance enhancement' and 'staying healthy'

I'm no supporter of 'cheaters' but it continues and continues to strike me as wierd that the argument that these guys are bad people is that they took something that kept them healthy and helped them heal from injury.

The stance that people should suffer injury without regeneration outside the 'natural order' in order for their achievements to mean anything to us, the viewing public, seems on SOME level as craven as the stance that cheating isn't a big deal.

ANd I don't buy for a second penchief's half-warmed argument that 'cheating that gets results is worse than cheating that doesn't.' Cheating is cheating insofar as something is actually banned and you consume it. If you consume something that isn't banned at the time you consume it, but later is, you are not a cheater, but that says nothing about how we should look on your achievements in relation to a later cheater. Whether you cheated, and whether you inflated your performance are two distinct questions.

[Royal Fanatic]

Amphetamines actually allowed the players the ability and stamina to put up the numbers in the first place. Guys like Hank Aaron extended their careers past 20+ years because of drugs like this. How is that not more important? How is that not enhancement? It just seems to me like an enormous double standard for you to sit here and forgive others for doing exactly the same thing.

I must have missed the part where you provided a link to the evidence that Hank Aaron used amphetamines.

The fact is that you have no idea whether or not Hank Aaron used amphetamines. You don't have a failed drug test to point to. You don't have an admission by Aaron. Hell, you don't even have an accusation by any of his peers. You've got nothing other than your own wild speculation. It's a red herring that you've thrown into the discussion in an attempt to excuse the behavior of guys like McGwire, Bonds, and Sosa.

When you can provide ANY evidence AT ALL to show that (1) Aaron used greenies, and (2) the greenies actually helped, then you'll have a valid argument. Until then, your argument is bogus.

[penchief]

Boy, you certainly ignored the hell out of my question, didn't you?

I didn't ignore it I just thought you were changing the subject and taking a jab at me. Didn't think it really had any relevance to the question of artificially inflated stats and HOF players.

That said, I don't have a problem answering your question. Most people would say that what the Yankees do is free enterprise. I don't disagree but my position on payroll is that I think there should be a salary cap in baseball just like there is in football. I'm all for it.

I'm not a Yankee fan because they win. I'm a Yankee fan because I grew up watching the Yankees. I started liking them when they were a miserable team. Back when Shafer.....was the......one beer to have......when you're having more than one. Before Steinbrenner. Before free agency. My first favorite player was Joe Pepitone.

The best Yankee teams have been built through the farm system and good trades. I'll admit that last year was one of the few times that the Yankees actually hit on free agency but most of the time free agency has been a bane to the Yankees.

But yes, I'm all for a salary cap because I root for the pride and the tradition of the Yankees, not the payroll.

[Frazod]

I didn't ignore it I just thought you were changing the subject and taking a jab at me. Didn't think it really had any relevance to the question of artificially inflated stats and HOF players.

That said, I don't have a problem answering your question. Most people would say that what the Yankees do is free enterprise. I don't disagree but my position on payroll is that I think there should be a salary cap in baseball just like there is in football. I'm all for it.

I'm not a Yankee fan because they win. I'm a Yankee fan because I grew up watching the Yankees. I started liking them when they were a miserable team. Back when Shafer.....was the......one beer to have......when you're having more than one. Before Steinbrenner. Before free agency. My first favorite player was Joe Pepitone.

The best Yankee teams have been built through the farm system and good trades. I'll admit that last year was one of the few times that the Yankees actually hit on free agency but most of the time free agency has been a bane to the Yankees.

But yes, I'm all for a salary cap because I root for the pride and the tradition of the Yankees, not the payroll.

Yeah, a miserable team with more than double the championships of any other team in baseball. I always wonder how you New York people were able to find the strength to soldier on through the lean years.

But back to steroids. Shall we put an asterisk by Alex Rodriguez's stats as well? How about Jason Giambi's? Seems like there's juice flowing all over the place.

[penchief]

There is a qualitative difference between 'performance enhancement' and 'staying healthy'

I'm no supporter of 'cheaters' but it continues and continues to strike me as wierd that the argument that these guys are bad people is that they took something that kept them healthy and helped them heal from injury.

The stance that people should suffer injury without regeneration outside the 'natural order' in order for their achievements to mean anything to us, the viewing public, seems on SOME level as craven as the stance that cheating isn't a big deal.

And I don't buy for a second penchief's half-warmed argument that 'cheating that gets results is worse than cheating that doesn't.' Cheating is cheating insofar as something is actually banned and you consume it. If you consume something that isn't banned at the time you consume it, but later is, you are not a cheater, but that says nothing about how we should look on your achievements in relation to a later cheater. Whether you cheated, and whether you inflated your performance are two distinct questions.

And I don't understand why people keep ignoring the gist of my argument in order to accuse me of arguing something that I'm not.

As I said, I don't condone cheating. Nor do I condone the use of amphetamines. But until you can prove to me that amphetamines impacted the record books in any way, let alone as dramatically as steroids have, you won't convince me that I'm wrong simply by painting my argument to be something that it isn't.

The power statistics put up by guys like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa when they were juicing are a statistical anomoly directly attributed to use of steroids. Had they not used steroids their numbers would have been no greater than what they had produced before and no greater than those who came before them in baseball history (taking into account the smaller ball parks, of course).

For that reason, guys who were not on a Hall of Fame track before they started juicing should not receive HOF consideration based on fraudulent numbers that were a result of their juicing. McGwire and Sosa both fall into that category, as far as I'm concerned.

[penchief]

Yeah, a miserable team with more than double the championships of any other team in baseball. I always wonder how you New York people were able to find the strength to soldier on through the lean years.

But back to steroids. Shall we put an asterisk by Alex Rodriguez's stats as well? How about Jason Giambi's? Seems like there's juice flowing all over the place.

Well, I was nine years old at the time and had little concept of their history. I watched them because I lived in WPIX land.

As far as Rodriguez and Giambi go? I honestly believe that Giambi is one of those who did inflate his numbers dramatically via steroids. So yes, give him an asterik. That said, Giambi is nowhere near a hall of fame player.

I'm going to preface my opinion on Rodriguez by telling you what I think of him first. I don't like him. I wish he were not on the Yankees. If he were on any other team I'd say the same thing I'm about to say. Rodriquez has an opportunity to play clean for the next 10 plus years. I think he will have a chance to redeem himself based on what he does over that period. And I'd be happier if he played out his career on another team. Having said that, even before he admitted his use I would have guessed he was using just by the way his body had changed.

[Frazod]

Alex Rodriguez and Mark McGwire are TIED on the all time home run list! :eek:

Hey penchief, were you here with your torch and pitchfork when A-Roid got outed? I don't recall.

[penchief]

Alex Rodriguez and Mark McGwire are TIED on the all time home run list! :eek:

Hey penchief, were you here with your torch and pitchfork when A-Roid got outed? I don't recall.

As far as I know, he isn't up for the Hall of Fame.

That said, I don't like Rodriguez. Never have. Hated when the Yankees got him. Wish he was gone tomorrow. But what am I going to do about it? If you want to see what I think about Rodriguez's HOF chances read the post I just made.

I think he has a chance to produce numbers in the future aside from the years that he juiced that would allow him to be considered. If it were based soley on his juicing years I'd feel the exact same way about his HOF consideration that I do McGwire's. McGwire's juicing period is the only reason he's even considered. He would not even be sniffing the HOF otherwise.

If Rodriguez didn't make it I wouldn't shed a single tear. And if it were because he juiced I'd say it served him right. As a Yankee fan, I'm more disappointed that guys like Mattingly and Munson never got to play long enough to get consideration.

[KC_Connection]

If a player's numbers are arrived at artificially then I don't think he can be considered a Hall of Famer. As far as the uppers go, if I had enough evidence to believe that they skewed the playing field as much as steroids did I'd probably agree with you. But the evidence that we have doesn't suggest that is so.
You might as well take out everybody in the HOF, then, because they all used amphetamines to improve their performance on the field. The things were practically handed out in clubhouses for decades.


The steroid numbers stick out like sore thumb.

The major reason for the HR numbers climbing in the 90s was juiced balls, not juiced players. Players have been on steroids since the 70s, and some are still on them.

[KC_Connection]

I must have missed the part where you provided a link to the evidence that Hank Aaron used amphetamines.

Hank Aaron admitted to amphetamine use in his autobiography. Did you really think this is my first time arguing this subject?


The fact is that you have no idea whether or not Hank Aaron used amphetamines.

No, the fact is that he admitted to using them...like everybody else he played with.


You don't have a failed drug test to point to. You don't have an admission by Aaron.

Actually, I do. Read his book.


Hell, you don't even have an accusation by any of his peers. You've got nothing other than your own wild speculation. It's a red herring that you've thrown into the discussion in an attempt to excuse the behavior of guys like McGwire, Bonds, and Sosa.
I haven't excused those players' behavior at all. I'm merely trying to understand why they are being treated differently than the "cheaters" that came before them.


When you can provide ANY evidence AT ALL to show that (1) Aaron used greenies, and (2) the greenies actually helped, then you'll have a valid argument. Until then, your argument is bogus.

#1. Aaron did use greenies.
#2. It's impossible to prove how much greenies helped him, just as it is impossible to prove how much steroids helped Mark McGwire. That's really an irrelevant question, anyway, though. Is one form of "cheating" somehow better because it doesn't help as much as another?

[KC_Connection]

Yeah, a miserable team with more than double the championships of any other team in baseball. I always wonder how you New York people were able to find the strength to soldier on through the lean years.

But back to steroids. Shall we put an asterisk by Alex Rodriguez's stats as well? How about Jason Giambi's? Seems like there's juice flowing all over the place.

Gary Sheffield...Roger Clemens...Andy Pettitte.

[KC_Connection]

Willie Mays was supposedly an amphetamine user too....might as well kick him out too while we're at it.

As the sporting industry exploded in the 1920s, athletic trainers and their charges immediately saw the possibilities of using his research. Even the Big Bambino himself, Babe Ruth, injected himself with extract from a sheep's testicles, hoping for increased power at the plate (and in the bedroom). He attempted this only once, and it made him incredibly ill; the Yankees covered the story by telling the press that the Babe just had one of his famous bellyaches. Even though the Yankees tend to celebrate all things Babe Ruth, they have never, to my knowledge, had "Sheep Testicles Day" at the stadium.

Babe Ruth, too?

[Frazod]

Gary Sheffield...Roger Clemens...Andy Pettitte.

Boy, we're going to need to a shit ton of asterisks, aren't we?

[RippedmyFlesh]

Some guy on the jay lemo show said it best
"You don't care if the guy in a porno took viagra why do you care if a baseball player took steroids?"

[Frazod]

Some guy on the jay lemo show said it best
"You don't care if the guy in a porno took viagra why do you care if a baseball player took steroids?"

To be fair, I don't think anybody at ESPN keeps track of exploding cum shots. :D

[penchief]

Boy, we're going to need to a shit ton of asterisks, aren't we?

We can do this all night long. I can't stand either sheffield or Clemons and think both should be held out of the HOF. I'll admit to an affinity for Pettitte because of his clutch pitching and his homegrown status. That said he's not yet HOF material. If he were I'd say keep him out.

Clemons career pre-steroids probably earned him HOF status but his post steroid conduct has been a disgrace. Leave him out
.
Too much of Sheffield's resume is tainted by steroids, IMO. I would keep him out, too.

Got any more?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frazod]

We can do this all night long. I can't stand either sheffield or Clemons and think both should be held out of the HOF. I'll admit to an affinity for Pettitte because of his clutch pitching and his homegrown status. That said he's not yet HOF material. If he were I'd say keep him out.

Clemons career pre-steroids probably earned him HOF status but his post steroid conduct has been a disgrace. Leave him out
.
Too much of Sheffield's resume is tainted by steroids, IMO. I would keep him out, too.

Got any more?
Posted via Mobile Device

No one gives a shit who you can stand or not. The bottom line is you're a Yankee fan living in a $200,000,000 glass house full of cheaters. Stop throwing rocks.

[KC_Connection]

We can do this all night long. I can't stand either sheffield or Clemons and think both should be held out of the HOF. I'll admit to an affinity for Pettitte because of his clutch pitching and his homegrown status. That said he's not yet HOF material. If he were I'd say keep him out.

Clemons career pre-steroids probably earned him HOF status but his post steroid conduct has been a disgrace. Leave him out
.
Too much of Sheffield's resume is tainted by steroids, IMO. I would keep him out, too.

Got any more?
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm fairly sure Clemens has been on steroids since his days in college at Texas. Still a definite HOFer in my mind, though. In fact, he's one of the greatest pitchers of all time.

[KC_Connection]

No one gives a shit who you can stand or not. The bottom line is you're a Yankee fan living in a $200,000,000 glass house full of cheaters. Stop throwing rocks.

Let's put an asterisk on their World Series titles. It's only fair.

[Frazod]

Let's put an asterisk on their World Series titles. It's only fair.

They only outspent the Phillies by $81,000,000 last year. Hey, that's fair! ROFL

[Miles]

David Justice, Rondell White, Chuck Knoblock, Jason Grimsley, Denny Neagle, Mike Stanton, Jerry Hairston Jr., Kevin Brown are a few others from the Mitchell Report. Hell the Yankees even won a world series with fucking Canseco as a bench player.

[Brock]

Hank Aaron admitted to amphetamine use in his autobiography. Did you really think this is my first time arguing this subject?

He cheated, he ruined my sacred, nuanced game that you heathens don't understand! Kick the bastard out! /Royal F

[Marcellus]

I have said all along, cheating has been part of baseball since there has been baseball.

Why this is such a travesty is beyond me.It's not like people didn't think it was going on. The players were against testing for years. Why do you suppose that was? I think there should be a "steroid era" * though for future generations to understand. Hitters were using steroids, pitchers were using steroids.

Players have cheated using speed, doctoring balls, stealing signs, being paid off etc... forever.

[penchief]

No one gives a shit who you can stand or not. The bottom line is you're a Yankee fan living in a $200,000,000 glass house full of cheaters. Stop throwing rocks.

How am I throwing rocks? Everyone on this thread has an opinion of whether or not McGwire should make the Hall of Fame based on his fraudulent numbers. Why do you take offense to my opinion and nobody else's?

If you didn't want my opinion on those players you cited you should not have brought them up. I don't have a double standard just because some of those guys were Yankees for part of their career. My opinion of their steroid use is exactly the same as it is for McGwire.

And why are you blaming me for the Yankees' payroll? I root for the uniform, not the payroll. I told you I'd prefer a salary cap in baseball. What more do you want? I shouldn't have to apologize to you for my team loyalty. I've been a Yankee fan since I was nine and a chief fan since I was ten. You may be the type who changes loyalties easily but I am not.

It sounds like you are starting to take this a little personal. I'm sorry if my opinion is that offensive to you but there is no need to get all butthurt over it.

[penchief]

Let's put an asterisk on their World Series titles. It's only fair.

Why is this all of a sudden about the Yankees? I don't begrudge fans of other teams their resentment toward the Yankees. But listening to how butthurt you are leads me to believe that you must really admire McGwire for what he did. That must have been a special moment for you when he broke Maris' record knowing that he could have only done it with the help of steroids.

By the way, if you want to get technical the Yankees never won a penant with the likes of Giambi, Sheffield, or Rodriguez when he was juicing. If you want to put an asterik by the penants they won when Roger Clemens was on the team be my guest. If it ever gets to the point where they give asteriks to teams and the Yankees deserve one I won't have a problem with it.

[penchief]

They only outspent the Phillies by $81,000,000 last year. Hey, that's fair! ROFL

Other teams can spend more if they want. Some small market teams don't even spend the money they get from the big market teams. Can't blame the Yankees for that. The Yankees have cut salary significantly two years in a row. Wow, they cut salary and still win a championship with no steroid users. That must really get under your crawl.

By the way, I've said it twice and I'll say it again. As a baseball fan, I want a salary cap in baseball. So you're preaching to the choir, buddy.

[Consistent1]

I think we should have a Chiefs Planet "Build A Pujols" contest since all of these people seem to think a few vials is all it takes to taint the sacred record books. Everyone can put in some cash and we can use a reputable dealer to buy someone all the necessary stuff. They even pick the person to make an all-time great. Hell, use one of your kids and be able to retire forever to post more knowledge on the Planet! We can still get you around the tests. It's that easy boys.

[penchief]

I think we should have a Chiefs Planet "Build A Pujols" contest since all of these people seem to think a few vials is all it takes to taint the sacred record books. Everyone can put in some cash and we can use a reputable dealer to buy someone all the necessary stuff. They even pick the person to make an all-time great. Hell, use one of your kids and be able to retire forever to post more knowledge on the Planet! We can still get you around the tests. It's that easy boys.

Well, if it wasn't so easy why did Sosa break such a long standing record in the same year? And why didn't McGwire's record last as long as Maris'? Oh, I forgot. Bonds broke it. Three juicers. Big surprise, huh? What are the odds?

[Consistent1]

Well, if it wasn't so easy why did Sosa break such a long standing record in the same year? And why didn't McGwire's record last as long as Maris'? Oh, I forgot. Bonds broke it. Three juicers. Big surprise, huh? What are the odds?

I understand that to a degree. However, they were very good players with the genetics to develop. Look at the infamous Brady Anderson stats from 96. He hadn't done it before, and he couldn't do it again. The pitchers just kept going after the guy for that one year. Anybody who makes it to the majors is a great baseball player...period. The next season they had his number by simply pitching him differently IMO. Do you think he stopped doing the same things, or working with EAS at the time? Bonds got better on top of already being one of the best all-around players ever. He never looked happy taking those walks, but he did time and time again. Never got impatient and flipped and ruined his average. Maybe slightly in the last couple years when the lineup protection sucked and he started to realize that he wouldn't be able to play forever. Aren't juicers supposed to be all crazy? I want guys taking training seriously and performing, drugs or not. Not doing the Arenas type thang and flashing guns. What scares me the most is there is inevitably drug use in the NBA on top of incredible genes. Some of those guys are fools and prolly would take anything to help without much knowledge. Don't cut into the G time baby.

You want to buy $7 hot dogs and $9 beers to watch 205 pound linebackers? We can have a Chris Johnson contest next where you take some slug who runs a 5 flat 40 and get him over 2000 yards. Genetics control all of this stuff greatly as far as being able to sustain versus the flash in the pan guys. I bet Bonds could come back right now drug free with age, injuries and all and make a decent impact as least as a spot DH and pinch hitter. I said in another post also that effective steroids are far from new. Hell, Maris could have been popping D-Bols and speed.

[Frazod]

I seem to have ruffled penchief's pompous east coast feathers a bit.

This thread is about cheaters and unfair advantages. Seriously, how can you have a conversation about cheaters and unfair advantages in baseball WITHOUT talking about the Yankees? Tell us again how a small market team can drop $200,000,000 on payroll and not go broke? When was the last time the Yankees had to worry about another team plucking one of their young home-grown stars when his rookee contract expired because they couldn't afford to keep him? I'm sorry, but dropping payroll from $210,000,000 to $200,000,000 doesn't really mean all that much when you're still about $70,000,000 up on your next closest rival.

Mainly I'm just pointing out that a Yankee fan crying about inequity is the height of hypocrisy. You keep crying about McGwire breaking Maris's record in 1998, but what good did it do him or his team in the long run? The record has long since been broken, and the Cardinals didn't even make the playoffs that year. Gee, refresh my memory - what squad of juicers did win the World Series in 1998? I'll bet you know the answer to that one, don't you? I don't think that trophy going to get melted down in the name of fairness anytime soon, is it?

And I'm not the one dropping butthurts all over the place, Mr. You're Making It Personal. :deevee: But we can do that if you want.

Buddy.

[2112]

I seem to have ruffled penchief's pompous east coast feathers a bit.

This thread is about cheaters and unfair advantages. Seriously, how can you have a conversation about cheaters and unfair advantages in baseball WITHOUT talking about the Yankees? Tell us again how a small market team can drop $200,000,000 on payroll and not go broke? When was the last time the Yankees had to worry about another team plucking one of their young home-grown stars when his rookee contract expired because they couldn't afford to keep him? I'm sorry, but dropping payroll from $210,000,000 to $200,000,000 doesn't really mean all that much when you're still about $70,000,000 up on your next closest rival.

Mainly I'm just pointing out that a Yankee fan crying about inequity is the height of hypocrisy. You keep crying about McGwire breaking Maris's record in 1998, but what good did it do him or his team in the long run? The record has long since been broken, and the Cardinals didn't even make the playoffs that year. Gee, refresh my memory - what squad of juicers did win the World Series in 1998? I'll bet you know the answer to that one, don't you? I don't think that trophy going to get melted down in the name of fairness anytime soon, is it?

And I'm not the one dropping butthurts all over the place, Mr. You're Making It Personal. :deevee: But we can do that if you want.

Buddy.
Steinbrenner, even though I cant stand him..was a genius for starting the YES network..that channel has been the cash cow that the Yankees are using to pay for all their high priced players and cheating the system..lol

Thats called being a winner baby! woot! I'm quite sure the Cardinals have a huge following all over the country. you for example are in Illinois, right? how do you watch the Cardinal games there?

Fraz I understand your point and frustration to a point. but the Yankees didnt exactly have this fall in their lap. they worked hard to promote and sell the team. which in return brings in huge revenue.

[Frazod]

Steinbrenner, even though I cant stand him..was a genius for starting the YES network..that channel has been the cash cow that the Yankees are using to pay for all their high priced players and cheating the system..lol

Thats called being a winner baby! woot! I'm quite sure the Cardinals have a huge following all over the country. you for example are in Illinois, right? how do you watch the Cardinal games there?

Fraz I understand your point and frustration to a point. but the Yankees didnt exactly have this fall in their lap. they worked hard to promote and sell the team. which in return brings in huge revenue.

It's a bit hard to compare the Cards' following to the Yankees' following when there are more people living within ten miles of Yankee Stadium then there are in the entire state of Missouri.

Of course, that's not your fault, or penchief's. That's just the way it is. But it's a little hard to take a Yankee fan seriously when they cry about injustice in baseball.

You weren't.

[2112]

It's a bit hard to compare the Cards' following to the Yankees' following when there are more people living within ten miles of Yankee Stadium then there are in the entire state of Missouri.

Of course, that's not your fault, or penchief's. That's just the way it is. But it's a little hard to take a Yankee fan seriously when they cry about injustice in baseball.

You weren't.

LOL! Good point..We also have more than one team for each sport too..which I guess kind of makes up a lil bit for that..I hadnt read the thread, I just saw your last post. Im gonna read it now..lol

[2112]

Yeah, a miserable team with more than double the championships of any other team in baseball. I always wonder how you New York people were able to find the strength to soldier on through the lean years.




Modern day Yankee fans (youngins) are spoiled (penchief) lol..I remember the dark days of horace clark and ron bloomberg..I even went to a bat day double header against the world champion Oakland a's in shea stadium in 1974 :(

[Frazod]

As a Cardinal fan I'm embarrassed by McGwire. I wish he'd just go away and stay there, but now he's back with the team as a coach so here we go with all this bullshit. I'm just getting tired of the media (and certain people on this board) demonizing him like he was some fucking ax murderer. Sure he cheated, but God knows he was not alone. And he did win a World Series (for Oakland) while juicing, but since the Bonds-embracing Giants were the victims in that, it's a bit hard to feel sorry for them. All his juiced HRs never did the Cardinals any good in the long run, and at the end of his career, he hurt us more than he helped us.

[savchief]

If you really want to get technical, neither amphetamine or steroid use was ever cheating (not until 2003, anyway). The use of those drugs without a prescription was against the law, but they were never against the rules of the sport (and both were widely endorsed by the MLB establishment for years).

That's actually a myth.

<b>In 1991</b>, Vincent sent a groundbreaking memorandum to all MLB clubs regarding the use of steroids, although he really did not consider steroids to be a major problem at the time. Vincent merely wanted to lay the groundwork for an attempt to control the entire drug and potential steroid problem, i.e., he was being proactive with regard to steroids. In his memorandum, Vincent emphasized, "There is no place for illegal drugs in baseball. Their use by players and others in baseball can neither be condoned nor tolerated. Baseball players and personnel cannot be permitted to give even the slightest suggestion that illegal drug use is either acceptable or safe. It is the responsibility of all baseball players and personnel to see to it that the use of illegal drugs does not occur, and if it does, to put a stop to it."

Commissioner Vincent's memorandum contained the following provisions:
• The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.
• In addition to any discipline this office may impose, a club may also take action under applicable provisions of and special covenants to the uniform player's contract. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
• MLB recognizes that illegal drug use has become a national problem, and that some players and baseball personnel may fall victim to drugs. Baseball will not hesitate to permanently remove from the game those players and personnel who, despite our efforts to treat and rehabilitate, refuse to accept responsibility for the problem and continue to use illegal drugs. If any club covers up or otherwise fails to disclose to this office any information concerning drug use by a player, that club will be fined $250,000, the highest allowable amount under the Major League Agreement.
• MLB believes that its testing program is the most effective means available to deter and detect drug use. For admitted or detected drug users, testing will be a component of that individual's after-care program for the balance of his or her professional baseball career.
• This office will continue to search for positive and constructive methods of dealing with drug use. While baseball will attempt to treat and rehabilitate any player or personnel who falls victim to a drug problem, we will not hesitate to impose discipline, especially in those cases involving repeated offenses or refusals to participate in a recommended and appropriate course of treatment.
• If any club has a question about any aspect of the drug use program, please contact Louis Melendez, Associate Counsel, Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee.

Sincerely,
Francis T. Vincent Jr.
Commissioner, Major League Baseball


CC: League Presidents
Player Relations Committee
Major League Baseball Players Association
<b>(Source: Don Weiskopt, 2006, What if Fay Vincent Remained Baseball Commissioner? Baseball Play America)</b>

Steroid TESTING was not conducted until 2003

[OnTheWarpath15]

That's actually a myth.

<b>In 1991</b>, Vincent sent a groundbreaking memorandum to all MLB clubs regarding the use of steroids, although he really did not consider steroids to be a major problem at the time. Vincent merely wanted to lay the groundwork for an attempt to control the entire drug and potential steroid problem, i.e., he was being proactive with regard to steroids. In his memorandum, Vincent emphasized, "There is no place for illegal drugs in baseball. Their use by players and others in baseball can neither be condoned nor tolerated. Baseball players and personnel cannot be permitted to give even the slightest suggestion that illegal drug use is either acceptable or safe. It is the responsibility of all baseball players and personnel to see to it that the use of illegal drugs does not occur, and if it does, to put a stop to it."

Commissioner Vincent's memorandum contained the following provisions:
• The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.
• In addition to any discipline this office may impose, a club may also take action under applicable provisions of and special covenants to the uniform player's contract. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
• MLB recognizes that illegal drug use has become a national problem, and that some players and baseball personnel may fall victim to drugs. Baseball will not hesitate to permanently remove from the game those players and personnel who, despite our efforts to treat and rehabilitate, refuse to accept responsibility for the problem and continue to use illegal drugs. If any club covers up or otherwise fails to disclose to this office any information concerning drug use by a player, that club will be fined $250,000, the highest allowable amount under the Major League Agreement.
• MLB believes that its testing program is the most effective means available to deter and detect drug use. For admitted or detected drug users, testing will be a component of that individual's after-care program for the balance of his or her professional baseball career.
• This office will continue to search for positive and constructive methods of dealing with drug use. While baseball will attempt to treat and rehabilitate any player or personnel who falls victim to a drug problem, we will not hesitate to impose discipline, especially in those cases involving repeated offenses or refusals to participate in a recommended and appropriate course of treatment.
• If any club has a question about any aspect of the drug use program, please contact Louis Melendez, Associate Counsel, Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee.

Sincerely,
Francis T. Vincent Jr.
Commissioner, Major League Baseball


CC: League Presidents
Player Relations Committee
Major League Baseball Players Association
<b>(Source: Don Weiskopt, 2006, What if Fay Vincent Remained Baseball Commissioner? Baseball Play America)</b>

Steroid TESTING was not conducted until 2003

Excellent post.

I've mentioned this several times in the past, mostly in the Bond's threads, and it gets ignored.

Rep.

[Demonpenz]

it's fun to go back and play super baseball 2020 for super nintindo, we aren't even close to what was predicted in that video game. If you remember that video game the entire crowd is encased in glass no homeruns but to centerfield and you could rob home runs via a lanch pad in center

[wild1]

I don't consider the Yankees cheaters. They are not doing anything other than what the system is set up to allow. They pay their players, they pay the luxury tax, they can win a World Series every decade or so and get the worst ROI of any team on player salaries, and do it all with a clear conscience.

[penchief]

I seem to have ruffled penchief's pompous east coast feathers a bit.

This thread is about cheaters and unfair advantages. Seriously, how can you have a conversation about cheaters and unfair advantages in baseball WITHOUT talking about the Yankees? Tell us again how a small market team can drop $200,000,000 on payroll and not go broke? When was the last time the Yankees had to worry about another team plucking one of their young home-grown stars when his rookee contract expired because they couldn't afford to keep him? I'm sorry, but dropping payroll from $210,000,000 to $200,000,000 doesn't really mean all that much when you're still about $70,000,000 up on your next closest rival.

Mainly I'm just pointing out that a Yankee fan crying about inequity is the height of hypocrisy. You keep crying about McGwire breaking Maris's record in 1998, but what good did it do him or his team in the long run? The record has long since been broken, and the Cardinals didn't even make the playoffs that year. Gee, refresh my memory - what squad of juicers did win the World Series in 1998? I'll bet you know the answer to that one, don't you? I don't think that trophy going to get melted down in the name of fairness anytime soon, is it?

And I'm not the one dropping butthurts all over the place, Mr. You're Making It Personal. :deevee: But we can do that if you want.

Buddy.

I see. Because I'm a Yankee fan since youth I'm not entitled to an opinion lest I'm a hypocrite. Even though I feel the same way about anyone who juiced and even though I want a salary cap.

Yet you overlook those points in favor of personal insinuations. According to you I'm pompous, a hypocrite, and throwing stones from a glass house just because I'm a Yankee fan.

I think you are the one that took it personal.
Posted via Mobile Device

[L.A. Chieffan]

McGwire as a hitting coach...lolz. Other than juiced-up HRs, he wasnt even that great of a hitter. Whats he gonna tell his guys when they start to go in a slump?

"Don't worry man, next week is the end of your flush cycle bro."

[KC_Connection]

Why is this all of a sudden about the Yankees? I don't begrudge fans of other teams their resentment toward the Yankees. But listening to how butthurt you are leads me to believe that you must really admire McGwire for what he did. That must have been a special moment for you when he broke Maris' record knowing that he could have only done it with the help of steroids.

Don't care at all about McGwire. I'm really more of a Bonds fan.


By the way, if you want to get technical the Yankees never won a penant with the likes of Giambi, Sheffield, or Rodriguez when he was juicing. If you want to put an asterik by the penants they won when Roger Clemens was on the team be my guest. If it ever gets to the point where they give asteriks to teams and the Yankees deserve one I won't have a problem with it.
The Yankees never would have won the World Series last year without proven steroid users in ARod and Pettitte. Asterisk.

[KC_Connection]

That's actually a myth.

No, it isn't a myth. Memos sent out by commissioners don't constitute an actual change to the rules. In order for something to become a rule, it has to be agreed upon by the MLBPA in CBA negotiations. That never happened until 2003. Hence, taking steroids was never against the rules of baseball, and by accounts of baseball people at the time, it was widely encouraged by the establishment.

[Consistent1]

Glad somebody bumped this. I was just thinking earlier after posting on the Royals thread. Could Lincecums Cy Young awards be tainted? Seriously think here. He is a smaller dude, throws hard. His body has to take a beating. Now let's say that he has smoked pot to simply relax, sleep better, increase appetite to get in more protein for recovery. If he is able to be more effective in more starts without injury due to rest and relaxation, is it not the same? Weed is clearly illegal. I could give a flying fuck less myself, what do you think? This could be true in all sports because weed is always popular with the athletes. What if Hammerin Hank was tokin to chill when he broke the all-time record? Let's just throw out all the record because all kinds of shit is possible NOW, and the old school players were all great guys...Did crack and coke for guys like LT enhance performance? It sounds crazy, but what if if it fueled his passion to play hard and bring in the cash.....

[wild1]

McGwire as a hitting coach...lolz. Other than juiced-up HRs, he wasnt even that great of a hitter. Whats he gonna tell his guys when they start to go in a slump?

"Don't worry man, next week is the end of your flush cycle bro."

You don't think .260 career hitters are qualified to be called "great hitters"?

Well, actually, who knows what he would have hit without all the juiced home runs, the way he was pitched to (or not) in those days.

.260 might be a pumped up figure for him too.

[penchief]

Don't care at all about McGwire. I'm really more of a Bonds fan.


The Yankees never would have won the World Series last year without proven steroid users in ARod and Pettitte. Asterisk.

Last year everyone was tested for steroids so they had to be clean. But if a governing body determined that they had an unfair advantage last year I'd say give the team an asterik.

Bonds would have made the HOF before he started juicing, IMO. But I have no doubt that the home run records are bogus.

[Consistent1]

Last year everyone was tested for steroids so they had to be clean. But if a governing body determined that they had an unfair advantage last year I'd say give the team an asterik.

Bonds would have made the HOF before he started juicing, IMO. But I have no doubt that the home run records are bogus.

The NFL has testing for steroids also....seriously.

[penchief]

You don't think .260 career hitters are qualified to be called "great hitters"?

Well, actually, who knows what he would have hit without all the juiced home runs, the way he was pitched to (or not) in those days.

.260 might be a pumped up figure for him too.

Pop flies turned into home runs will inflate all of the offensive stats (average, hits, runs, rbi, total bases, etc. etc. etc. ....)

[penchief]

The NFL has testing for steroids also....seriously.

I hear what you are saying but one has to believe that testing in baseball is being taken seriously considering the PR hit that the league and the players have suffered.

I think when you look at the home run totals it's obvious that they have tailed off considerably, which might be a sign that testing is working.

[Royal Fanatic]

I think when you look at the home run totals it's obvious that they have tailed off considerably, which might be a sign that testing is working.
Hold on there just one minute, Buster! Didn't you hear? Steroids don't help you hit home runs! It's all hand-eye coordination!

[Consistent1]

Hold on there just one minute, Buster! Didn't you hear? Steroids don't help you hit home runs! It's all hand-eye coordination!

It has to have changed things some, yes. However, guys are going up against four different dudes in the same game that are all throwing 95 MPH with damn good control these days also.

[KC_Connection]

From Bill James' essay: http://www.actapublications.com/images/small/PressReleases/Cooperstownandthe%27Roids_F2.pdf But at the same time, I do not believe that history will look at this issue from the standpoint of Will Clark. I don’t see how it can. What it seems to me that the Will Clark defenders have not come to terms with is the breadth and depth of the PED problem, which began in the 1960s and expanded without resistance for almost 40 years, eventually involving generations of players. It seems to me that the Will Clark defenders are still looking at the issue as one of “some” players gaining an advantage by using Performance Enhancing Drugs. But it wasn’t really an issue of some players gaining an advantage by the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs; it is an issue of many players using Performance Enhancing drugs in competition with one another. Nobody knows how many. It would be my estimate that it was somewhere between 40 and 80%. The discrimination against PED users in Hall of Fame voting rests upon the perception that this was cheating. But is it cheating if one violates a rule that nobody is enforcing, and which one may legitimately see as being widely ignored by those within the competition? It seems to me that, at some point, this becomes an impossible argument to sustain—that all of these players were “cheating”, in a climate in which most everybody was doing the same things, and in which there was either no rule against doing these things or zero enforcement of those rules. If one player is using a corked bat, like Babe Ruth, clearly, he’s cheating. But if 80% of the players are using corked bats and no one is enforcing any rules against it, are they all cheating? One better: if 80% of the players are using corked bats and it is unclear whether there are or are not any rules against it, is that cheating? And…was there really a rule against the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs? At best, it is a debatable point. The Commissioner issued edicts banning the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs. People who were raised on the image of an all-powerful commissioner whose every word was law are thus inclined to believe that there was a rule against it. But “rules”, in civilized society, have certain characteristics. They are agreed to by a process in which all of the interested parties participate. They are included in the rule book. There is a process for enforcing them. Someone is assigned to enforce the rule, and that authority is given the powers necessary to enforce the rule. There are specified and reasonable punishments for violation of the rules. The “rule” against Performance Enhancing Drugs, if there was such a rule before 2002, by-passed all of these gates. It was never agreed to by the players, who clearly and absolutely have a right to participate in the process of changing any and all rules to which they are subject.It was not included in any of the various rule books that define the conduct of the game from various perspectives.
There was no process for enforcing such a rule. The punishments were draconian in theory and non-existent in fact.
It seems to me that, with the passage of time, more people will come to understand that the commissioner’s periodic spasms of self-righteousness do not constitute baseball law. It seems to me that the argument that it is cheating must ultimately collapse under the weight of carrying this great contradiction—that 80% of the players are cheating against the other 20% by violating some “rule” to which they never consented, which was never included in the rule books, and which for which there was no enforcement procedure. History is simply not going
to see it that way. The end of the day here is about the year 2040, perhaps 2050. It will come upon us in a flash. And, at the end of the day, Mark McGwire is going to be in the Hall of Fame, and Roger Clemens, and Sammy Sosa, and Rafael Palmeiro, and probably even Barry Bonds.

[KC_Connection]

Last year everyone was tested for steroids so they had to be clean. But if a governing body determined that they had an unfair advantage last year I'd say give the team an asterik.

Ever heard of undetectable steroids?

That's the stuff Manny Ramirez was using. The only reason they caught him was because he slipped up with his masking agent.

[KC_Connection]

Hold on there just one minute, Buster! Didn't you hear? Steroids don't help you hit home runs! It's all hand-eye coordination!
I've never argued that once in this thread. But you've ignored all the relevant points I've made.

[penchief]

Ever heard of undetectable steroids?

That's the stuff Manny Ramirez was using. The only reason they caught him was because he slipped up with his masking agent.

And he got banned for 50 games. At some point it's not going to be worth it. And I think the obvious fact that guys aren't hitting ridiculous numbers of home runs fraudulently is a testament that (between testing and punishment) something must be working.

[2112]

What about Cal Ripken jr? he had to be juicing..he was roommates with brady anderson..and I know he was juicing. its a shame that lou gehrig's streak got broken by a cheating pos.

[Royal Fanatic]

From Bill James' essay: http://www.actapublications.com/images/small/PressReleases/Cooperstownandthe%27Roids_F2.pdf
I must admit that Bill James makes a pretty solid argument.

Of course, he always does.