Bill Simmons on Tom Brady/Matt Cassel

[Hootie]

The Montreal Screw-Job Award for "Most Shocking Turn on a Beloved Figure"

I didn't call my father during the first half of the Baltimore beating. There was nothing to say. When you give up an 83-yard run to start a game against a team you know wants to run 40 times, you kinda know how it's going to turn out. We all knew the 2009 Patriots had a playoff stink bomb in them; just not in Round 1 at home. Anyway, I was too depressed to call him at halftime. After another Brady interception in the third quarter, my cell phone started vibrating. Yup, it was a text from my dad.

"We never should have traded Cassel."

(Ouch.)

ROFL

[Brock]

Yep, sounds like a Boston fan.

[ncCHIEFfan]

Awsome

[DBOSHO]

Hootie, LET IT GO.

[The Bad Guy]

Simmons also said he has an inside source that Moss is gone.

[RNR]

LMAO

[Hootie]

Simmons also said he has an inside source that Moss is gone.

I figured Moss played his last game in New England after his performance last week.

[Pioli Zombie]

There was a portion of the Patriot fanbase at the end of 2008 who were actually asking what the Patriots could get for Brady. Cassel had played that well and won over the fanbase that much. People up there are still pissed the Patriots only got a 2nd for Cassel and Vrabel. For Chiefs fans to not get that Cassel did indeed show what he could do with a good supporting cast and good coaching and that what he was thrown into this year with a rookie head coach, no OC, a shit line, and a shit supporting cast basically reflects the football ignorance of Chiefs fans.
Yes. Cassel had a bad year.
But yes there were reasons and he needs and deserves a second year. If he fails this year then by all means flame away on him.
Posted via Mobile Device

[DBOSHO]

It makes sense to get rid of a HOF qb that brought the team 3 superbowls when the whole team played like crap...

[Hootie]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.

[WhitiE]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.
agreed

[LaChapelle]

Now we find out Cassel also plays safety
fuck

[DBOSHO]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.

ROFL dude just stop. Please.

[Pioli Zombie]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.
You are a fucking moron.
Posted via Mobile Device

[LaChapelle]

All this fighting over Peyton and Brady to find out Mr playoff clutch is Kurt Warner

[HotRoute]

Cassel/Brady kinda reminds me of the Montana/Young situation, exept they gave us the younger one this time

[RJ]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.



Define "not an all time great". Does that mean non HOF caliber? Or does it mean not in the top 5 all time discussion?

[HotRoute]

All time great to me would mean top 3-5 of all time. I mean shit even Jim Kelly and Elway are in the hall, and they're nowhere near the top 5

[DeezNutz]

Cassel/Brady kinda reminds me of the Montana/Young situation, exept they gave us the younger one this time

LMAO.

[MGRS13]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.

Yea Brady could never compare to your boy Huard. Christ I really believe that you can't top your level of stupidity but time and time again you prove me wrong. Don't you have an electrical outlet in your house(oh sorry I mean hotel room you rent by the week) you could be licking?

[Baby Lee]

Cassel/Brady kinda reminds me of the Young/Bono situation, except they gave us the less talented one this time
FYP

[RedThat]

Simmons also said he has an inside source that Moss is gone.

One thing I've noticed and find quite interesting are when teams have these cancer type players like R.Moss, Owens, LJ, or a guy like Mike Vick for example and never win anything.

It's got to be some sort of bad omen when these guys come to play for good teams and then those team just don't accomplish anything.

[DJ's left nut]

FYP

Well done, sir.

[RedThat]

FYP

Hey...we should hope for the best you know lol

[ChiefsCountry]

You are a fucking moron.
Posted via Mobile Device

Damn I agree with you for once.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ChiefsCountry]

All time great to me would mean top 3-5 of all time. I mean shit even Jim Kelly and Elway are in the hall, and they're nowhere near the top 5

Elway not top 5? You are about as fucking stupid as Hootie and CoMo.
Posted via Mobile Device

[MGRS13]

One thing I've noticed and find quite interesting are when teams have these cancer type players like R.Moss, Owens, LJ, or a guy like Mike Vick for example and never win anything.

It's got to be some sort of bad omen when these guys come to play for good teams and then those team just don't accomplish anything.
Well in Moss' defense he did set a record for TD's while his team was going undefeated in the regular season. Not to mention he has been a perfect citizen while he has been in NE. I know alot of people want to say Moss is the problem in NE but the fact is their defense has dropped off a cliff in the past year and a half.

[Pioli Zombie]

One thing I've noticed and find quite interesting are when teams have these cancer type players like R.Moss, Owens, LJ, or a guy like Mike Vick for example and never win anything.

It's got to be some sort of bad omen when these guys come to play for good teams and then those team just don't accomplish anything.
Yeah, Moss only caught the TD pass from Brady to put the Patriots ahead in the SB with 2 minutes to play before the defense coughed it up. You are blaming Moss for the Patriots not going 19-0 that year?

I also love all this revisionist history. After 2007 Brady was being called one of the top 2 of all time after his 50 TD passes. He get a knee injury and now he's not even on the top 5 or 10. Sure, today he may not be. But it doesn't take away where he was 2 years ago.
And I love how Kurt Warner is suddenly clutch with his 9 playoff wins and Brady isn't with his 14. Talk about "what have you done for me lately?"
Posted via Mobile Device

[Pioli Zombie]

Btw, I wonder if Manning gags again tonight.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frankie]

Simmons also said he has an inside source that Moss is gone.

And his obvious landing place IS.........

[Pioli Zombie]

Elway not top 5? You are about as fucking stupid as Hootie and CoMo.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah that's pretty retarded. Any top 5 list that isn't among Montana,Unitas,Elway,Brady,and Manning is fucked up in my opinion.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frankie]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.

I have always suspected this all along. It may be quite true.

[Hootie]

Define "not an all time great". Does that mean non HOF caliber? Or does it mean not in the top 5 all time discussion?

He's definitely HOF caliber...but he's a full tier below, at least, behind the all-time greats.

And the all-time greats are probably a full tier below Peyton Manning.

[milkman]

There was a portion of the Patriot fanbase at the end of 2008 who were actually asking what the Patriots could get for Brady. Cassel had played that well and won over the fanbase that much. People up their are still pissed the Patriots only got a 2nd for Cassel and Vrabel. For Chiefs fans to not get that Cassel did indeed show what he could do with a good supporting cast and good coaching and that what he was thrown into this year with a rookie head coach, no OC, a shit line, and a shit supporting cast basically reflects the football ignorance of Chiefs fans.
Yes. Cassel had a bad year.
But yes there were reasons and he needs and deserves a second year. If he fails this year then by all means flame away on him.
Posted via Mobile Device

You, and the Patriot fan base don't get it.

I've acknowledged many times that Cassel has the talent to be a good game manager with surrounding talent, possibly a very good game manager.

You might compete for, and even win, a SB with a game manager (Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson), but to consistently copmpete at that level, you need a playmaking franchise QB.

Now you might not agree with the opinion that Cassel is not franchise potential, but those of us who believe he is only game manager are pissed that Pioli hitched his wagon to a guy who appears to only have game manager potential.

[Pioli Zombie]

And his obvious landing place IS.........
I tell you what, anyone who wouldn't want Moss here is NUTS. Moss,Bowe,Chambers,and Charles. Holy shit!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

You are a ****ing moron.
Posted via Mobile Device

Finally found something we can agree on.

[Hootie]

I wouldn't want Moss here...

No thanks.

[DBOSHO]

Yeah, Moss only caught the TD pass from Brady to put the Patriots ahead in the SB with 2 minutes to play before the defense coughed it up. You are blaming Moss for the Patriots not going 19-0 that year?

I also love all this revisionist history. After 2007 Brady was being called one of the top 2 of all time after his 50 TD passes. He get a knee injury and now he's not even on the top 5 or 10. Sure, today he may not be. But it doesn't take away where he was 2 years ago.
And I love how Kurt Warner is suddenly clutch with his 9 playoff wins and Brady isn't with his 14. Talk about "what have you done for me lately?"
Posted via Mobile Device

Dude its bradys fault pollard barreled into his knee. If he had the pocket awareness of say, a peyton manning, he wouldve dodged it and threw a td.

Its also his fault that the defense played at a high school level for most of the season.

[milkman]

Elway not top 5? You are about as ****ing stupid as Hootie and CoMo.
Posted via Mobile Device

Concur.

[Hootie]

Even the biggest Patriots fan (Bill Simmons) will tell you Peyton Manning is the better QB...

and he's a huge Boston homer...

but milkman, pioli zombie and ChiefsCountry know differently!

[DeezNutz]

All time great to me would mean top 3-5 of all time. I mean shit even Jim Kelly and Elway are in the hall, and they're nowhere near the top 5

I completely missed this.

Elway is in the conversation for best player of all-time, not just QB.

Wow.

[Pioli Zombie]

You, and the Patriot fan base don't get it.

I've acknowledged many times that Cassel has the talent to be a good game manager with surrounding talent, possibly a very good game manager.

You might compete for, and even win, a SB with a game manager (Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson), but to consistently copmpete at that level, you need a playmaking franchise QB.

Now you might not agree with the opinion that Cassel is not franchise potential, but those of us who believe he is only game manager are pissed that Pioli hitched his wagon to a guy who appears to only have game manager potential.
Again What was the alternative??? Even Sanchez is at best a game manager.
And you just said game managers have won super bowls. Brady was in 2001. All I'm saying is give the guy an OC and a decent supporting cast and a fucking chance if after this year the Chiefs aren't at least 8-8 and Cassel hasn't improved a ton then flame away. But to make these judgements that he and Pioli are failures already is assinine.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frankie]

Yea Brady could never compare to your boy Huard. Christ I really believe that you can't top your level of stupidity but time and time again you prove me wrong. Don't you have an electrical outlet in your house(oh sorry I mean hotel room you rent by the week) you could be licking?

OK off topic: Unless there's a long history between you and Hootie that I'm unaware of with him sucker punching you with insults why couldn't you just simply disagree with his point?
:shake:

[DeezNutz]

Fuck, Hootie, saying that Manning is better is a little different from saying that Brady is essentially a game manager.

[milkman]

He's definitely HOF caliber...but he's a full tier below, at least, behind the all-time greats.

And the all-time greats are probably a full tier below Peyton Manning.

Hootie, if you were any more stupid, they'd put you on display in the Smithsonian.

Cause America is a great place where exceptional stupidity is rewarded.

[DBOSHO]

He's definitely HOF caliber...but he's a full tier below, at least, behind the all-time greats.

And the all-time greats are probably a full tier below Peyton Manning.

Hootie, for christ sake, please stop saying dumb things.

Im agreeing that peyton is AMONG Them, hes a great qb, but his playoff record alone doesnt put him above them.

[Pushead2]

yikes, this one has stupidity written all over it....

[DeezNutz]

Again What was the alternative??? Even Sanchez is at best a game manager.
And you just said game managers have won super bowls. Brady was in 2001. All I'm saying is give the guy an OC and a decent supporting cast and a ****ing chance if after this year the Chiefs aren't at least 8-8 and Cassel hasn't improved a ton then flame away. But to make these judgements that he and Pioli are failures already is assinine.
Posted via Mobile Device

At best? LMAO. Yeah, his ceiling is pretty well defined.

That said, of course Cassel needs more tools/weapons surrounding him.

[Pioli Zombie]

Even the biggest Patriots fan (Bill Simmons) will tell you Peyton Manning is the better QB...

and he's a huge Boston homer...

but milkman, pioli zombie and ChiefsCountry know differently!
Oh for fucks sake,Hootie. Yes. In 2009,Manning is better. But over their careers they are BOTH top 5 of all time qbs and over their career I'd take Brady in the big games.
Posted via Mobile Device

[tyler360]

To say that Brady is just a game manager is just dumb. The man threw for 50 TDs. If that is a game manager sign me up.

[Hootie]

Dude its bradys fault pollard barreled into his knee. If he had the pocket awareness of say, a peyton manning, he wouldve dodged it and threw a td.

Its also his fault that the defense played at a high school level for most of the season.

Peyton Manning was sacked 10 times this season...

10 times.

And do you think that is a testament to his offensive line?

Because I certainly don't...

That offense line is MEDIOCRE...

I love Aaron Rodgers...I think he's great...I bet someone on this board last year he'd have a QB rating over 90 (when they ended up going 6-10 and he posted a 91+ rating)...I knew he was going to be a great QB...

Put Aaron Rodgers behind the Colts line and he gets sacked around the same amount of times he was sacked behind his line in Green Bay.

Hey...

You want to bail Brady out of his poor performance because of his knee injury...or because of his "lack" of weapons (and I'll lol at that all day long)...or because of his shitty offensive line...

But the truth is...Manning never would have suffered that knee injury because he never would have put himself in that situation...he knows he's too important to that team...

and you know what...

Peyton Manning had the worst supporting cast I've ever seen in my life last season for the first 10 weeks and he SINGLE-HANDEDLY kept that team alive and they ended up winning 12 games...

He had absolutely NO protection and he was still getting rid of the ball and making plays DESPITE a non-existant running game and a WR2 (Harrison) who was 1000% washed up and missing two gigantic steps from his game...

Just sit back and watch Peyton Manning play that same Ravens defense at home tonight (just like Brady last week) and see what he does...

But then I'm sure it's just because he has the better "weapons" and better "supporting cast"...

[milkman]

Again What was the alternative??? Even Sanchez is at best a game manager.
And you just said game managers have won super bowls. Brady was in 2001. All I'm saying is give the guy an OC and a decent supporting cast and a ****ing chance if after this year the Chiefs aren't at least 8-8 and Cassel hasn't improved a ton then flame away. But to make these judgements that he and Pioli are failures already is assinine.
Posted via Mobile Device

What I'm saying is that even if there wasn't an alternaitve in the last draft, then you build a team with the players you have on hand, and hope to land a franchise QB in the next draft or two.

You don't give away a 2nd round pick for a (What?) 28 year old game manager on a team that is so devoid of talent that he'll be in his 30s before the team is ready to compete.

[Hootie]

****, Hootie, saying that Manning is better is a little different from saying that Brady is essentially a game manager.

Lets be honest...

The Patriots win when they ask Brady to manage games...

The Patriots lose when they depend on Brady to win games.

Every single game the Colts play they depend on Peyton to win games.

Can anyone argue this?

[DeezNutz]

But the truth is...Manning never would have suffered that knee injury because he never would have put himself in that situation...he knows he's too important to that team...


What a load of horse shit. Anyone buying?

It's football, Hootie. Players get hit, and sometimes unlucky shit happens.

[milkman]

Lets be honest...

The Patriots win when they ask Brady to manage games...

The Patriots lose when they depend on Brady to win games.

Every single game the Colts play they depend on Peyton to win games.

Can anyone argue this?

The SB run would argue with this.

Manning did everything he could to give away two playoff games.

[Hootie]

What a load of horse shit. Anyone buying?

It's football, Hootie. Players get hit, and sometimes unlucky shit happens.

and that's why Peyton Manning has never, ever, EVER missed a game? Ever.

???

Lets be honest...

and Tom Brady has always been very non-injury prone as well...

Some players just won't get injured...

Peyton Manning senses pressure better than any QB EVER and he doesn't take hits, and when he does, he knows when they are coming and he instinctively protects himself from injury.

Plain and simple.

Other than draining his knee last offseason...has he ever even been on an injury report?

The guy is a freak of nature. He has QB in his DNA.

[DBOSHO]

Peyton Manning was sacked 10 times this season...

10 times.

And do you think that is a testament to his offensive line?

Because I certainly don't...

That offense line is MEDIOCRE...

I love Aaron Rodgers...I think he's great...I bet someone on this board last year he'd have a QB rating over 90 (when they ended up going 6-10 and he posted a 91+ rating)...I knew he was going to be a great QB...

Put Aaron Rodgers behind the Colts line and he gets sacked around the same amount of times he was sacked behind his line in Green Bay.

Hey...

You want to bail Brady out of his poor performance because of his knee injury...or because of his "lack" of weapons (and I'll lol at that all day long)...or because of his shitty offensive line...

But the truth is...Manning never would have suffered that knee injury because he never would have put himself in that situation...he knows he's too important to that team...

and you know what...

Peyton Manning had the worst supporting cast I've ever seen in my life last season for the first 10 weeks and he SINGLE-HANDEDLY kept that team alive and they ended up winning 12 games...

He had absolutely NO protection and he was still getting rid of the ball and making plays DESPITE a non-existant running game and a WR2 (Harrison) who was 1000% washed up and missing two gigantic steps from his game...

Just sit back and watch Peyton Manning play that same Ravens defense at home tonight (just like Brady last week) and see what he does...

But then I'm sure it's just because he has the better "weapons" and better "supporting cast"...

This entire post is funny. Peyton wouldnt put himself in that situation because hes a pussy in the pocket when pressures around.

[DeezNutz]

Lets be honest...

The Patriots win when they ask Brady to manage games...

The Patriots lose when they depend on Brady to win games.

Every single game the Colts play they depend on Peyton to win games.

Can anyone argue this?

Part of managing the game is repeatedly hitting the go route?

[milkman]

Lets be honest...

The Patriots win when they ask Brady to manage games...

The Patriots lose when they depend on Brady to win games.

Every single game the Colts play they depend on Peyton to win games.

Can anyone argue this?

and bottom line, you can argue that Manning has only delivered once in the playoffs in the clutch when the game was on the line at the end.

Brady has delivered several times.

[Pushead2]

The SB run would argue with this.

Manning did everything he could to give away two playoff games.

Agreed, if the Bears didn't have Grossman that Super Bowl was thiers

[DeezNutz]

and that's why Peyton Manning has never, ever, EVER missed a game? Ever.

???

Lets be honest...

and Tom Brady has always been very non-injury prone as well...

Some players just won't get injured...

Peyton Manning senses pressure better than any QB EVER and he doesn't take hits, and when he does, he knows when they are coming and he instinctively protects himself from injury.

Plain and simple.

Other than draining his knee last offseason...has he ever even been on an injury report?

The guy is a freak of nature. He has QB in his DNA.

He gets rid of the ball quickly, no question.

But Brady had gotten rid of it, too, before Pollard went into his knee. Just unlucky.

[DBOSHO]

Lets be honest...

The Patriots win when they ask Brady to manage games...

The Patriots lose when they depend on Brady to win games.

Every single game the Colts play they depend on Peyton to win games.

Can anyone argue this?

someone please ban this guy. Jesus christ. Tom brady is a game manager now.

[DJ's left nut]

Elway not top 5? You are about as ****ing stupid as Hootie and CoMo.
Posted via Mobile Device

No !@#$.

Anyone that doesn't have Elway in their top 3 isn't worth listening to.

[Hootie]

The SB run would argue with this.

Manning did everything he could to give away two playoff games.

These two games you reference...

Did the Chiefs EVER, EVER, AT ANY POINT IN THAT GAME...make the Colts or Manning have to work for it?

At no point was that game ever in doubt for the Colts. So regardless of the final stat sheet...this doesn't count. This was an exhibition game if I've ever seen one...

and then...against Baltimore...

Again...Peyton was never even put to the test.

When the Colts finally needed him...he stepped up against the Patriots and they won on a beautiful 4th quarter TD drive by Peyton Manning and then he played well in the Super Bowl...

So I don't get this argument.

Just remember...for every "clutch" moment Brady had (and I guess we'll count his 20 yard scoring drives in the Super Bowls to set up 45+ yard FG's by Vinatieri)...I can also name a game in the postseason where he "choked"...

I can't believe that whole myth about Brady being clutch even exists.

[Pushead2]

Manning is a more natural QB than Brady no doubt.....but to say Brady is a game manager and isn't all that, well my friends...that is dumb..

[DeezNutz]

These two games you reference...

Did the Chiefs EVER, EVER, AT ANY POINT IN THAT GAME...make the Colts or Manning have to work for it?

At no point was that game ever in doubt for the Colts. So regardless of the final stat sheet...this doesn't count. This was an exhibition game if I've ever seen one...

and then...against Baltimore...

Again...Peyton was never even put to the test.

When the Colts finally needed him...he stepped up against the Patriots and they won on a beautiful 4th quarter TD drive by Peyton Manning and then he played well in the Super Bowl...

So I don't get this argument.

Just remember...for every "clutch" moment Brady had (and I guess we'll count his 20 yard scoring drives in the Super Bowls to set up 45+ yard FG's by Vinatieri)...I can also name a game in the postseason where he "choked"...

I can't believe that whole myth about Brady being clutch even exists.

Yeah, scoring drives, plural, in the ****ing SB no less...tend to have that effect.

This reminds me of when people try to argue that Roethlisberger is NOT a franchise QB.

[DBOSHO]

These two games you reference...

Did the Chiefs EVER, EVER, AT ANY POINT IN THAT GAME...make the Colts or Manning have to work for it?

At no point was that game ever in doubt for the Colts. So regardless of the final stat sheet...this doesn't count. This was an exhibition game if I've ever seen one...

and then...against Baltimore...

Again...Peyton was never even put to the test.

When the Colts finally needed him...he stepped up against the Patriots and they won on a beautiful 4th quarter TD drive by Peyton Manning and then he played well in the Super Bowl...

So I don't get this argument.

Just remember...for every "clutch" moment Brady had (and I guess we'll count his 20 yard scoring drives in the Super Bowls to set up 45+ yard FG's by Vinatieri)...I can also name a game in the postseason where he "choked"...

I can't believe that whole myth about Brady being clutch even exists.

So basically your saying its ok to let bad teams back in the game repeatedly.

Right.

[Brock]

All time great to me would mean top 3-5 of all time. I mean shit even Jim Kelly and Elway are in the hall, and they're nowhere near the top 5

That's a big pile of dumb right there.

[milkman]

Agreed, if the Bears didn't have Grossman that Super Bowl was thiers

He threw three interceptions to the worst defense in the league in the first round of the playoffs.

And I've pointed this out a number of times.

Manning, of all the great QBs of the last 20 years is the only one, other than Favre, whose playoff QB rating is lower than his regular season QB rating.

He, more than any great QB, shrinks in the face of consistent pressure.

It's why he could never get past the Patriots earlier in his career before their defense began their decline, and why he hasn't been able to get past the Chargers.

[Hootie]

and bottom line, you can argue that Manning has only delivered once in the playoffs in the clutch when the game was on the line at the end.

Brady has delivered several times.

What has Brady delivered? I just find this funny...

He threw 1 TD pass in the entire postseason (if I remember correctly) the year they won their first Super Bowl...

I'm sorry...if it wasn't for the "tuck rule" and Adam Vinatieri...the legend of Tom Brady might not even exist.

Dude stumbles into a perfect situation, fools the majority of football fans, and now the stubborn ones can't just admit Tom Brady is a better game manager than playmaking QB.

What was Tom Brady when they won their first Super Bowl?

A game manager?

or a franchise QB?

[Pioli Zombie]

Lets be honest...

The Patriots win when they ask Brady to manage games...

The Patriots lose when they depend on Brady to win games.

Every single game the Colts play they depend on Peyton to win games.

Can anyone argue this?
Yeah Brady was being a game manager in Super Bowl 38 when he threw for like 330 yards. And he was a game manager when he threw for 4,800 yards and 50 TD passes.
Hootie just drink a glass of milk and shut up.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hootie]

He threw three interceptions to the worst defense in the league in the first round of the playoffs.

And I've pointed this out a number of times.

Manning, of all the great QBs of the last 20 years is the only one, other than Favre, whose playoff QB rating is lower than his regular season QB rating.

He, more than any great QB, shrinks in the face of consistent pressure.

It's why he could never get past the Patriots earlier in his career before their defense began their decline, and why he hasn't been able to get past the Chargers.

ROFLROFLROFL

So QB rating is your argument here?

Did you watch the past two postseason losses by the Colts against the Chargers?

And you're saying Peyton Manning is the reason why they couldn't get past the Chargers? Somehow he didn't rise to the occasion?

Hahaha..

[Hootie]

Yeah Brady was being a game manager in Super Bowl 38 when he threw for like 330 yards. And he was a game manager when he threw for 4,800 yards and 50 TD passes.
Hootie just drink a glass of milk and shut up.
Posted via Mobile Device

Well we can't argue that Tom Brady's Super Bowl performance in 2007 isn't one of the biggest choke jobs of all time?

Not only was a Super Bowl on the line...but a perfect season? And captain clutch turned in his WORST performance of the year?

[Pioli Zombie]

What has Brady delivered? I just find this funny...

He threw 1 TD pass in the entire postseason (if I remember correctly) the year they won their first Super Bowl...

I'm sorry...if it wasn't for the "tuck rule" and Adam Vinatieri...the legend of Tom Brady might not even exist.

Dude stumbles into a perfect situation, fools the majority of football fans, and now the stubborn ones can't just admit Tom Brady is a better game manager than playmaking QB.

What was Tom Brady when they won their first Super Bowl?

A game manager?

or a franchise QB?
In 2001 he was a game manager. Since then he has been much more than that you putz.
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

These two games you reference...

Did the Chiefs EVER, EVER, AT ANY POINT IN THAT GAME...make the Colts or Manning have to work for it?

At no point was that game ever in doubt for the Colts. So regardless of the final stat sheet...this doesn't count. This was an exhibition game if I've ever seen one...

and then...against Baltimore...

Again...Peyton was never even put to the test.

When the Colts finally needed him...he stepped up against the Patriots and they won on a beautiful 4th quarter TD drive by Peyton Manning and then he played well in the Super Bowl...

So I don't get this argument.

Just remember...for every "clutch" moment Brady had (and I guess we'll count his 20 yard scoring drives in the Super Bowls to set up 45+ yard FG's by Vinatieri)...I can also name a game in the postseason where he "choked"...

I can't believe that whole myth about Brady being clutch even exists.

Again, how many times can you argue that manning has delivered in the clutch in the playoffs?

Once.

And yes, Brady has failed in the clutch, as well.

But regardless of the time and distance, and score needed, he has delivered more often, by far, than Manning.

[Pushead2]

Well we can't argue that Tom Brady's Super Bowl performance in 2007 isn't one of the biggest choke jobs of all time?

Not only was a Super Bowl on the line...but a perfect season? And captain clutch turned in his WORST performance of the year?

The guy caught the football with his fucking helmet on a perfectly defended pass......you really want to go there with this one?? :shake:

[DBOSHO]

Peyton had good playoff game, he clutch now/ hootie

[Hootie]

So let me get this straight...

Peyton Manning wasn't clutch against the Chiefs in 2003 in the no punt game?

Or does that not count?

What are we counting here?

Super Bowl wins?

Yeah...Brady has 3 and Manning has 1.

Terry Bradshaw has more than Brady so I guess he is more clutch and even better than Tom Brady!

This Super Bowl bullshit is just that...bullshit.

Hey a great QB is definitely a key to winning Super Bowls...but it's not the be all end all...

All I know is one of these QB's had the benefit of the most clutch kicking in NFL history for half a decade...and the other had Mike Vanderjagt...who once had a chance to tie a game in the playoffs for the Colts to force an OT...only to push a chipshot about 50 yards right...

But Brady is clutch and Manning never delivers...his one Super Bowl is only because he faced Rex Grossman...

[DBOSHO]

Well we can't argue that Tom Brady's Super Bowl performance in 2007 isn't one of the biggest choke jobs of all time?

Not only was a Super Bowl on the line...but a perfect season? And captain clutch turned in his WORST performance of the year?

If not for the fucking miracle play that will never ever ever happen again that wouldnt be an issue.

[DJ's left nut]

The most damning evidence of Tom Brady as a truly historic QB is Matt Cassel.

We all saw how severely lacking Matt Cassel is this season, yet in the Patriots system he won 11 games and threw for 3700 yards.

I saw a system that inflates a QBs performance by a solid 10-20%.

I guess the question you have to ask is - could the Colts have ever gone 11-5 with Jim Sorgi?

Brady sits at 11 on my all-time QB list. And ultimately I will listen to any argument that puts Warner over him as well (best pure passer of my lifetime and a guy that would've been untouchable in that NE system). Brady's a HOFer and an elite QB, but the Peyton v. Manning debate is closed, it's no contest.

[milkman]

ROFLROFLROFL

So QB rating is your argument here?

Did you watch the past two postseason losses by the Colts against the Chargers?

And you're saying Peyton Manning is the reason why they couldn't get past the Chargers? Somehow he didn't rise to the occasion?

Hahaha..

I've said this time and time again.

Manning, in the face of consistent pressure, shrivels up.
He pussifies.
He doesn't stand tall in the pocket and hold the ball until the last minute ato deliver the ball, and as a result, the receivers are unable to finish their routes and be in position to make a catch.

Their passing game relies heavily on timing, much as Kurt Warner and the Rams or the Cards.

He stands in and delivers.

Joe Montana, as fragile as he was, did also, as has tom Brady, as does Ben Roethlisberger, as does Drew Brees.

Manning is a pussy.

[beer bacon]

We should trade Cassel for Brady straight up.

[Hootie]

The guy caught the football with his ****ing helmet on a perfectly defended pass......you really want to go there with this one?? :shake:

They scored 14 points!

They set every single offensive record anyone could ever think of that season and scored 14 points!

In the MOST IMPORTANT game of Tom Brady's life...

He didn't show up.

P.S. Tom Brady does have the NFL record for TD passes in a season.

P.S.S. Tom Brady's 2007 doesn't TOUCH Peyton Manning's 2004.

[Jerm]

If not for the fucking miracle play that will never ever ever happen again that wouldnt be an issue.

Hmmm similar to the Tuck Rule that started the entire Pats "dynasty".

It always goes both ways.
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

The most damning evidence of Tom Brady as a truly historic QB is Matt Cassel.

We all saw how severely lacking Matt Cassel is this season, yet in the Patriots system he won 11 games and threw for 3700 yards.

I saw a system that inflates a QBs performance by a solid 10-20%.

I guess the question you have to ask is - could the Colts have ever gone 11-5 with Jim Sorgi?

Brady sits at 11 on my all-time QB list. And ultimately I will listen to any argument that puts Warner over him as well (best pure passer of my lifetime and a guy that would've been untouchable in that NE system). Brady's a HOFer and an elite QB, but the Peyton v. Manning debate is closed, it's no contest.

Closed, my ass.

Shut the fuck up.

[DeezNutz]

The most damning evidence of Tom Brady as a truly historic QB is Matt Cassel.

We all saw how severely lacking Matt Cassel is this season, yet in the Patriots system he won 11 games and threw for 3700 yards.

I saw a system that inflates a QBs performance by a solid 10-20%.


This is a very fair point and an interesting perspective that I'm sure the Cassel apologists will love.

[Pushead2]

They scored 14 points!

They set every single offensive record anyone could ever think of that season and scored 14 points!

In the MOST IMPORTANT game of Tom Brady's life...

He didn't show up.

P.S. Tom Brady does have the NFL record for TD passes in a season.

P.S.S. Tom Brady's 2007 doesn't TOUCH Peyton Manning's 2004.

I'll say it again, the guy caught the ball with his head.....

[DBOSHO]

They scored 14 points!

They set every single offensive record anyone could ever think of that season and scored 14 points!

In the MOST IMPORTANT game of Tom Brady's life...

He didn't show up.

P.S. Tom Brady does have the NFL record for TD passes in a season.

P.S.S. Tom Brady's 2007 doesn't TOUCH Peyton Manning's 2004.

He had more touchdowns but i guess that doesnt "touch" peyton.
Oh btw, at least brady made it to the superbowl that year. I cant remember who peyton lost to, but he got his ass kicked.
Do you seriously just sit down and think "what can i type today that will make cp think im retarded?"

[Hootie]

That's rich.

Manning is a "pussy"...

If that is what the next turn of the Brady/Manning debate turns into...god kill me now.

Peyton Manning is such a perfect QB that his critics are now going to attack him for not allowing his receivers to finish routes because he won't stand in the pocket and take hits!

I'm sorry...

For every 1 play Ben Roethlisberger makes because he holds on to the ball forever and lets the play "develop"...he makes about 4 bad plays for the very same reason.

I watched a half dozen Steelers games this year and I can remember at least 3 occasions where the Steelers were in the red zone and he did something stupid to take them out of FIELD GOAL range even...

But hey...I understand Manning plays the QB position as perfectly as it can be played and I know you're stubborn Milkman and you're desperately holding onto the idea that Brady is better than Manning (for some reason unknown to me)...

So if this is what you've got then this is what you've got...

What are we going to say after Manning wins tonight against the Ravens?

Lets say he has a statistically mediocre game but the Colts win...

Will he be a choker? We all saw how good Tom Brady was against these very same Ravens last week...

[Pushead2]

http://nickbon.com/1d3%20David%20Tyree%27s%20famous%20catch.jpg

[DJ's left nut]

Closed, my ass.

Shut the **** up.

I ask again - could the Colts have ever gone 11-5 with Jim Sorgi? You're honestly going to pound your chest and yell "3 Superbowls!!!" when Matt Cassel took that same system to an 11-5 record? Doesn't that say all that needs to be said about how difficult it was to win football games there? If a guy like Cassel can get you to 11-5, just exactly how can you compare SBs?

Name one single thing that Tom Brady does on a football field better than Peyton Manning. I say all the time that I don't care about statistics with Matt Cassel because I can point to how he actually plays between the lines and his physical shortcomings.

There's not a single thing that Tom Brady does better than Peyton Manning. Point to mythical intangibles like 'clutch play' all you want, but it's nonsense. Without Adam Vinitiari, Tom Brady's just a top flight QB; nobody would dream of comparing him to Manning.

[Pushead2]

His celebration....http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/02/06/amd_tyree.jpg

[Hootie]

He had more touchdowns but i guess that doesnt "touch" peyton.
Oh btw, at least brady made it to the superbowl that year. I cant remember who peyton lost to, but he got his ass kicked.
Do you seriously just sit down and think "what can i type today that will make cp think im retarded?"

Peyton had a better QB rating...

Tony Dungy didn't run up scores all year like the Patriots.

Peyton Manning played 1 series in week 17 in a meaningless game...Tom Brady played an entire game (in a meaningless game) and they were obviously record hunting the whole time...

So I always find it funny when people try and tell me Tom Brady had a statistically better year in 2007 than Manning in 2004...because it's not true.

[DBOSHO]

I promise you if their line and defense plays like the patriots, the colts wont win jack shit.

[Hootie]

Pushead...not sure I get your point...

Plaxico Burress predicted the Patriots would score 17 points...

Tom Brady laughed at him and basically mocked the Giants...because you know...they set so many offensive records that year.

THEY SCORED 14 POINTS AND TOM BRADY PLAYED A BAD GAME.

Period.

He choked away the biggest game of his life and you can't say otherwise...but try and spin the David Tyree angle some more.

[Pushead2]

I ask again - could the Colts have ever gone 11-5 with Jim Sorgi? You're honestly going to pound your chest and yell "3 Superbowls!!!" when Matt Cassel to that same system to an 11-5 record? Doesn't that say all that needs to be said about how difficult it was to win football games there? If a guy like Cassel can get you to 11-5, just exactly how can you compare SBs?

Name one single thing that Tom Brady does on a football field better than Peyton Manning. I say all the time that I don't care about statistics with Matt Cassel because I can point to how he actually plays between the lines and his physical shortcomings.

There's not a single thing that Tom Brady does better than Peyton Manning. Point to mythical intangibles like 'clutch play' all you want, but it's nonsense. Without Adam Vinitiari, Tom Brady's just a top flight QB; nobody would dream of comparing him to Manning.

Wins these....http://ui25.gamespot.com/2008/patriotsposter_2.jpg

[Hootie]

I promise you if their line and defense plays like the patriots, the colts wont win jack shit.

There are two promises I can make every NFL postseason:

Ready for them?

I promise you if Tom Brady and the Patriots lose...everyone will make excuses for Tom Brady because he is a "winner"...and "winners" never lose.

That's one.

My other promise?

If Peyton Manning loses, he's a choker.

I.E. This thread where Milkman references the Charger losses over the past two years.

[DBOSHO]

Peyton had a better QB rating...

Tony Dungy didn't run up scores all year like the Patriots.

Peyton Manning played 1 series in week 17 in a meaningless game...Tom Brady played an entire game (in a meaningless game) and they were obviously record hunting the whole time...

So I always find it funny when people try and tell me Tom Brady had a statistically better year in 2007 than Manning in 2004...because it's not true.

once again, if tom couldnt touch peyton that year, why couldnt he get to the superbowl. Peyton can put the whole team on his back, remember.

So what happened?

[Pushead2]

Pushead...not sure I get your point...

Plaxico Burress predicted the Patriots would score 17 points...

Tom Brady laughed at him and basically mocked the Giants...because you know...they set so many offensive records that year.

THEY SCORED 14 POINTS AND TOM BRADY PLAYED A BAD GAME.

Period.

He choked away the biggest game of his life and you can't say otherwise...but try and spin the David Tyree angle some more.

yes on a 53 man roster that one man lost the game for them.....actually Rodney Harrison choked in the biggest game of their lives...

[Hootie]

you know what the BIGGEST shame of it all is?

The Patriots NEVER respected Adam Vinatieri enough to reward him with a Super Bowl MVP...

You have three MVP's from the Patriots dynasty...

Tom Brady, Bill Belichick and Adam Vinatieri.

Wouldn't have won a single Super Bowl without all three of those pieces...take 1 away, any 1, pick 1...no Super Bowls.

[Pushead2]

once again, if tom couldnt touch peyton that year, why couldnt he get to the superbowl. Peyton can put the whole team on his back, remember.

So what happened?

Manning has been a choker since his days of UT when he couldn't beat Florida...

[DJ's left nut]

Wins these....

WIth a system that Matt Cassel guided to an 11-5 record.

Put Peyton Manning in NE and Tom Brady in Indy and it's a bloodbath. Indy wouldn't have even played .500 football with Tom Brady under center this year (injured WRs, no running game, scatter-shot defense) and Manning would've taken them to 16-0 but/for a moron head coach.

[DBOSHO]

There are two promises I can make every NFL postseason:

Ready for them?

I promise you if Tom Brady and the Patriots lose...everyone will make excuses for Tom Brady because he is a "winner"...and "winners" never lose.

That's one.

My other promise?

If Peyton Manning loses, he's a choker.

I.E. This thread where Milkman references the Charger losses over the past two years.

Give me your honest answer.

If peyton was under center last week, would he have beaten the ravens, and if so, why?

[Pushead2]

you know what the BIGGEST shame of it all is?

The Patriots NEVER respected Adam Vinatieri enough to reward him with a Super Bowl MVP...

You have three MVP's from the Patriots dynasty...

Tom Brady, Bill Belichick and Adam Vinatieri.

Wouldn't have won a single Super Bowl without all three of those pieces...take 1 away, any 1, pick 1...no Super Bowls.

Rex Grossman should have won it for the Colts then if that's your dumb argument....

[Hootie]

once again, if tom couldnt touch peyton that year, why couldnt he get to the superbowl. Peyton can put the whole team on his back, remember.

So what happened?

They lost to a better Patriots team on the road in the playoffs?

That's simple. It's not like the Patriots didn't have the better seed or anything.

But Peyton choked that year...yet Tom wasn't the choker in 2006 when he ended their season, at Indy, with a pick on the final drive where a TD sends them to the Super Bowl.

That isn't a choke job...nevermind they were winning 21-3 at one point...

[Pushead2]

and the sad thing is I personally think Manning is a better QB...but the way you shit on Brady is retarded.

[DBOSHO]

WIth a system that Matt Cassel guided to an 11-5 record.

Put Peyton Manning in NE and Tom Brady in Indy and it's a bloodbath. Indy wouldn't have even played .500 football with Tom Brady under center this year (injured WRs, no running game, scatter-shot defense) and Manning would've taken them to 16-0 but/for a moron head coach.

Ever heard of derek anderson?

[Hootie]

Rex Grossman should have won it for the Colts then if that's your dumb argument....

I guess somehow people forget how well Peyton Manning played in that Super Bowl against the Bears...

Against the best defense the league has seen since the Ravens won the Super Bowl earlier in the decade...

But you're right...that was all Grossman and the Colts defense.

[DJ's left nut]

Give me your honest answer.

If peyton was under center last week, would he have beaten the ravens, and if so, why?

Yes.

Manning doesn't take that sack/strip.

Manning doesn't throw 2 first quarter picks.

Tom Brady put his team in a hole they couldn't crawl out of. If Mannings there, but Ravens could've never gone into the bombshell offense they went into.

You genuinely believe Manning would've lost to a team that completed 4 passes?

[Hootie]

Give me your honest answer.

If peyton was under center last week, would he have beaten the ravens, and if so, why?

well I guess we get to find out tonight...

and if you're asking...

I'm thinking Colts 24 Ravens 13

[DBOSHO]

They lost to a better Patriots team on the road in the playoffs?

That's simple. It's not like the Patriots didn't have the better seed or anything.

But Peyton choked that year...yet Tom wasn't the choker in 2006 when he ended their season, at Indy, with a pick on the final drive where a TD sends them to the Super Bowl.

That isn't a choke job...nevermind they were winning 21-3 at one point...

"every time the colts ask peyton to win the game, he delivers"

[DBOSHO]

well I guess we get to find out tonight...

and if you're asking...

I'm thinking Colts 24 Ravens 13

Lol peyton is playing on the patriots tonight?

[Hootie]

They try and talk about weapons...

Lets go watch some 2007 Patriots game tape and watch how many times Brady heaves the ball 55 yards into double coverage (Miami anybody?) to see Randy Moss make remarkable catch after remarkable catch...

Sorry...Peyton Manning has NEVER had anything CLOSE to 2007 Randy Moss...Peyton and his receivers do it all with timing...he's never had a security blanket to heave to when nothing else is open.

And lets be honest...

Randy Moss IS/WAS so good...SO good...we thought Daunte Culpepper was a top tier QB for YEARS...Nick Saban traded a 2nd round pick for Culpepper rather than signing Drew Brees off the street for NO compensation.

[Pushead2]

he went 25/38 for 247 2tds 1int
Grossman 20/28 165 1td 2int

[RedThat]

Well in Moss' defense he did set a record for TD's while his team was going undefeated in the regular season. Not to mention he has been a perfect citizen while he has been in NE. I know alot of people want to say Moss is the problem in NE but the fact is their defense has dropped off a cliff in the past year and a half.

The guy is a great player, Id never doubt him for that and Im glad to see an improvement in his character.

You have no disagreement from me that their defense has been a problem for them. However, this is where I am trying to get at, Moss does have a weakness. His work ethics are questionable at times. They are. When times are tough, I don't view him as the type of player who puts forth enough of a concerted effort to help his team win. He has a lack of fortitude.

Thats the way I've always interpreted him. And we all know the Patriots as an organization with players that have loads of players with fortitude and effort. Those characteristics have been a staple of the Patriots franchise over this last decade. It's pretty much been their blueprint over the years and another reason why they were world champions. Now, anytime you add guy like Randy Moss into that mix, it has an effect on their overall chemistry and morale. Not exactly a good blend if you ask me.

[DBOSHO]

Yes.

Manning doesn't take that sack/strip.

Manning doesn't throw 2 first quarter picks.

Tom Brady put his team in a hole they couldn't crawl out of. If Mannings there, but Ravens could've never gone into the bombshell offense they went into.

You genuinely believe Manning would've lost to a team that completed 4 passes?

I will admit, the first pick was awful. The 2nd one was bad, but the strip, come on man.

It was like matt light wasnt even there. He did NOTHING on that play. Even peyton doesnt get the ball off that fast.

[Pushead2]

Grossman also fumbled twice and it wasn't pressure because he was only sacked once.

[Hootie]

Lol peyton is playing on the patriots tonight?

no but he's playing the team that made Tom Brady look like an inferior Matt Cassel

[DBOSHO]

They try and talk about weapons...

Lets go watch some 2007 Patriots game tape and watch how many times Brady heaves the ball 55 yards into double coverage (Miami anybody?) to see Randy Moss make remarkable catch after remarkable catch...

Sorry...Peyton Manning has NEVER had anything CLOSE to 2007 Randy Moss...Peyton and his receivers do it all with timing...he's never had a security blanket to heave to when nothing else is open.

And lets be honest...

Randy Moss IS/WAS so good...SO good...we thought Daunte Culpepper was a top tier QB for YEARS...Nick Saban traded a 2nd round pick for Culpepper rather than signing Drew Brees off the street for NO compensation.

Peyton ever have wide recievers that quit on routes?

[DJ's left nut]

I will admit, the first pick was awful. The 2nd one was bad, but the strip, come on man.

It was like matt light wasnt even there. He did NOTHING on that play. Even peyton doesnt get the ball off that fast.

My memory is that Brady patted the ball just beofre getting blasted.

Manning doesn't pat. He throws on time or he throws it away.

[Hootie]

Dude...

The Bears defense led them to the Super Bowl...ALL YEAR LONG they played with Grossman or Griese...

ALL YEAR LONG...

But suddenly they lose all credibility as an opponent because Rex Grossman was their QB?

LMAO

Manning handled that defense almost flawlessly (especially compared to the rest of the NFL)...38 minutes T.O.P.

but that doesn't count because he only beat Rex Grossman in the Super Bowl..

So Tom Brady has 4 Super Bowls (because that Tyree catch doesn't count) and Manning has 0 Super Bowls...

Right?

[Pushead2]

Vinatieri had 12 of the 29 points....thats 17 then there was a pick 6 for another 7, Thats 10 points produced by the Manning in that game...

[DBOSHO]

no but he's playing the team that made Tom Brady look like an inferior Matt Cassel

Cause the 2008 patriots are the exact same team as the 2009 patriots.

[Pushead2]

Dude...

The Bears defense led them to the Super Bowl...ALL YEAR LONG they played with Grossman or Griese...

ALL YEAR LONG...

But suddenly they lose all credibility as an opponent because Rex Grossman was their QB?

LMAO

Manning handled that defense almost flawlessly (especially compared to the rest of the NFL)...38 minutes T.O.P.

but that doesn't count because he only beat Rex Grossman in the Super Bowl..

So Tom Brady has 4 Super Bowls (because that Tyree catch doesn't count) and Manning has 0 Super Bowls...

Right?

not at all, but Grossman played horribly....Grossman the good half showed up in that game and Peyton still would have no ring...

[Mr. Laz]

Hootie, LET IT GO.no hootie, don't let it go ... keep grinding that shit.

[Hootie]

Peyton ever have wide recievers that quit on routes?

oh so suddenly Randy Moss is Oakland Raiders Randy Moss, and since Wes Welker was injured now we're going to play the "Tom Brady needs WEAPONS!" card!

Oh, ok. Got it.

Peyton Manning has Dallas Clark! It isn't fair!

(Coming from the same guys who tell us how unimportant the TE position is)...

Such hypocrites when it comes to this debate...it's hysterical.

FORTUNATELY...outside of a few people...everyone gets it now...

The Pats are DONE.

The Colts aren't...

[milkman]

I ask again - could the Colts have ever gone 11-5 with Jim Sorgi? You're honestly going to pound your chest and yell "3 Superbowls!!!" when Matt Cassel took that same system to an 11-5 record? Doesn't that say all that needs to be said about how difficult it was to win football games there? If a guy like Cassel can get you to 11-5, just exactly how can you compare SBs?

Name one single thing that Tom Brady does on a football field better than Peyton Manning. I say all the time that I don't care about statistics with Matt Cassel because I can point to how he actually plays between the lines and his physical shortcomings.

There's not a single thing that Tom Brady does better than Peyton Manning. Point to mythical intangibles like 'clutch play' all you want, but it's nonsense. Without Adam Vinitiari, Tom Brady's just a top flight QB; nobody would dream of comparing him to Manning.

I don't buy into the argument that the Colts couldn't win games without Manning.

Does Jim Sorgi look like crap?

Sure.

Manning might be more valuable to the Patriots because his b/u may be absolute crap.

I know this, however, before Brady went down last year, the Pat fans thought that Cassel was absolute crap, and that the Patiots couldn't win games without Brady.

Until we see the Colts with another QB under center for more than some meaningless snaps, we have no way to know how they'd fare without Manning.

If you tell me that they'd lose more games without Manning than with, then I can buy into that.

[Hootie]

Vinatieri had 12 of the 29 points....thats 17 then there was a pick 6 for another 7, Thats 10 points produced by the Manning in that game...

ROFL

This is just getting ridiculous.

So I guess we won't count Vinatieri's missed 29 yard field goal or his botched PAT...

Or the time consuming drives that led to all of these field goals...

I guess we'll just ignore the fact the Bears had the 2nd best defense we've seen in the past 10-15 years...

and we'll ignore all of the great drives the Colts had and the 38 minutes T.O.P.

we'll just write that off on Grossman and not credit Manning for putting together a lot of great drives against the Bears potent defense...

Those don't count.

[Pushead2]

ROFL

This is just getting ridiculous.

So I guess we won't count Vinatieri's missed 29 yard field goal or his botched PAT...

Or the time consuming drives that led to all of these field goals...

I guess we'll just ignore the fact the Bears had the 2nd best defense we've seen in the past 10-15 years...

and we'll ignore all of the great drives the Colts had and the 38 minutes T.O.P.

we'll just write that off on Grossman and not credit Manning for putting together a lot of great drives against the Bears potent defense...

Those don't count.



you just like to type....:shake:

[Baby Lee]

Just sit back and watch Peyton Manning play that same Ravens defense at home tonight (just like Brady last week) and see what he does...
By all means, enjoy the return of Peyty Manningheimer tonight.

[HotRoute]

I completely missed this.

Elway is in the conversation for best player of all-time, not just QB.

Wow.

I hope your kidding

[Mecca]

Kinda funny I expect the Ravens to beat the Colts....the Colts run D is garbage and Ray Rice well he's good.

[Hootie]

Cause the 2008 patriots are the exact same team as the 2009 patriots.

so Matt Cassel sucks for regressing the 2007 Patriots from 16-0 to 11-5...but Tom Brady gets a pass because the 2009 Patriots aren't the same as the 2008 Patriots.

Got it.

[Hootie]

you just like to type....:shake:

Hey I'd give up now if I were you too...

[RedThat]

Yeah, Moss only caught the TD pass from Brady to put the Patriots ahead in the SB with 2 minutes to play before the defense coughed it up. You are blaming Moss for the Patriots not going 19-0 that year?

I also love all this revisionist history. After 2007 Brady was being called one of the top 2 of all time after his 50 TD passes. He get a knee injury and now he's not even on the top 5 or 10. Sure, today he may not be. But it doesn't take away where he was 2 years ago.
And I love how Kurt Warner is suddenly clutch with his 9 playoff wins and Brady isn't with his 14. Talk about "what have you done for me lately?"
Posted via Mobile Device


Nope. Not blaming Moss. Just trying to say that when you add players who don't exactly blend into the overall team chemistry and morale it does have a bit of an effect on the team.

Your second paragraph proves to be correct. This is definately a league where its "what have you done for me lately?"

[Sully]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.

That's dumb.

[DBOSHO]

oh so suddenly Randy Moss is Oakland Raiders Randy Moss, and since Wes Welker was injured now we're going to play the "Tom Brady needs WEAPONS!" card!

Oh, ok. Got it.

Peyton Manning has Dallas Clark! It isn't fair!

(Coming from the same guys who tell us how unimportant the TE position is)...

Such hypocrites when it comes to this debate...it's hysterical.

FORTUNATELY...outside of a few people...everyone gets it now...

The Pats are DONE.

The Colts aren't...

Did you watch the pats this year? Moss jogged on some of his routes. Even the espn dudes acknowledge it. I never said randy was bad so stfu.

[milkman]

They lost to a better Patriots team on the road in the playoffs?

That's simple. It's not like the Patriots didn't have the better seed or anything.

But Peyton choked that year...yet Tom wasn't the choker in 2006 when he ended their season, at Indy, with a pick on the final drive where a TD sends them to the Super Bowl.

That isn't a choke job...nevermind they were winning 21-3 at one point...

No one is arguing that Brady has never choked in the clutch.

as a matter of fact, I would aregue that he has choked in the clutch in the Patriots last three playoff losses.

What we are arguing i sthat he has delivered in the clutch more than Manning has.

And the fact is, that point is inarguable.

[Hootie]

Kinda funny I expect the Ravens to beat the Colts....the Colts run D is garbage and Ray Rice well he's good.

Just not going to happen...

In fact...

I almost expect the Colts to keep the Ravens running game fairly in check.

The Ravens ONLY CHANCE of winning tonight is scoring first...and not a field goal, either.

If the Colts jump out 7-0...game over.

The Ravens better win the toss and elect to receive.

[Mecca]

Randy Moss isn't the Patriots problem, if anything he turned Wes Welker into a star because everyone is worried about him getting deep.

Their problem is their defense turned to mush and they still have no running game and start passing 80% of the time.

[Hootie]

Did you watch the pats this year? Moss jogged on some of his routes. Even the espn dudes acknowledge it. I never said randy was bad so stfu.

have you watched Randy Moss for the past 12 years or are you just now tuning in?

[Mecca]

Just not going to happen...

In fact...

I almost expect the Colts to keep the Ravens running game fairly in check.

The Ravens ONLY CHANCE of winning tonight is scoring first...and not a field goal, either.

If the Colts jump out 7-0...game over.

The Ravens better win the toss and elect to receive.

The Colts struggled like hell with the Ravens in their first meeting they musterd what 20 points something like that?

[milkman]

Kinda funny I expect the Ravens to beat the Colts....the Colts run D is garbage and Ray Rice well he's good.

If the Ravens can consistently get pressure on Manning, and they can get a couple TDs on the board and go into the 4th quarter with a lead, I think they win.

Manning can not deliver in the clutch against pressure.

[DBOSHO]

so Matt Cassel sucks for regressing the 2007 Patriots from 16-0 to 11-5...but Tom Brady gets a pass because the 2009 Patriots aren't the same as the 2008 Patriots.

Got it.

Its pretty obvious that the defense has gotten worse since last year. Idk why you cant see that.

[Baby Lee]

There are two promises I can make every NFL postseason:

Ready for them?

I promise you if Tom Brady and the Patriots lose...everyone will make excuses for Tom Brady because he is a "winner"...and "winners" never lose.

That's one.

My other promise?

If Peyton Manning loses, he's a choker.

I.E. This thread where Milkman references the Charger losses over the past two years.

In the Playoffs, you get the 'Peyton loses because he's a choker' line, because SO MANY MANY TIMES the other team raised it's play and Peyton lowered his.

[Hootie]

No one is arguing that Brady has never choked in the clutch.

as a matter of fact, I would aregue that he has choked in the clutch in the Patriots last three playoff losses.

What we are arguing i sthat he has delivered in the clutch more than Manning has.

And the fact is, that point is inarguable.

I just disagree...

Just because the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls doesn't mean Tom Brady delivered in the clutch.

Because I don't think he did...

If the Patriots EVER had ANY pressure on them in those last drives in those Super Bowls...then sure, depending on the drive and scenario, I'd label him a captain clutch in a heartbeat.

The fact is...

Both times they needed a score to win in the Super Bowl the games were tied...

Everyone knows that pressure is SQUARELY on the opposing defense...

I'd love to have seen Tom Brady down by 4 on one of those drives...

[RedThat]

Kinda funny I expect the Ravens to beat the Colts....the Colts run D is garbage and Ray Rice well he's good.

Yup. I agree Ray Rice is a gamer. I think the Colts are going to have a tough time stopping him.

[DBOSHO]

have you watched Randy Moss for the past 12 years or are you just now tuning in?

You are the master of ducking questions.

[Hootie]

The Colts struggled like hell with the Ravens in their first meeting they musterd what 20 points something like that?

They sure did...

I've done a bunch of research on that game...

The Ravens were 0-4 in the red zone and the Colts were 2-4 in the red zone...

Neither one of those things are going to happen this time around...

The game is also in Indianapolis.

This is the one game (other than the Chargers maybe) where I can see only two possible outcomes...

A close game where the Colts will probably win 8 out of 10 times...or a blowout where the Colts win by 10+...

Like I said...the only chance for scenario A in my opinion is the Ravens scoring 1st...

if the Colts jump out 7-0 I think it's going to be a route.

[RedThat]

I just disagree...

Just because the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls doesn't mean Tom Brady delivered in the clutch.

Because I don't think he did...

If the Patriots EVER had ANY pressure on them in those last drives in those Super Bowls...then sure, depending on the drive and scenario, I'd label him a captain clutch in a heartbeat.

The fact is...

Both times they needed a score to win in the Super Bowl the games were tied...

Everyone knows that pressure is SQUARELY on the opposing defense...

I'd love to have seen Tom Brady down by 4 on one of those drives...

That whole team was clutch Hootie. It really comes down to that.

[milkman]

I just disagree...

Just because the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls doesn't mean Tom Brady delivered in the clutch.

Because I don't think he did...

If the Patriots EVER had ANY pressure on them in those last drives in those Super Bowls...then sure, depending on the drive and scenario, I'd label him a captain clutch in a heartbeat.

The fact is...

Both times they needed a score to win in the Super Bowl the games were tied...

Everyone knows that pressure is SQUARELY on the opposing defense...

I'd love to have seen Tom Brady down by 4 on one of those drives...

In the SB against the Rams, how much time was on the clock when the Patriots got the ball?

To discount that because the score was tied is moronacy at it's best.

[Hootie]

Manning can not deliver in the clutch against pressure.

ROFL

Wow that's quite the statement.

Throwing around "definites" as fact.

Manning certainly delivered against the almighty Patriots in the clutch in the AFC Championship game in 2006 when the game was on the line.

Regardless...

The Ravens have one shot. They need to score first. Period.

[Hootie]

In the SB against the Rams, how much time was on the clock when the Patriots got the ball?

To discount that because the score was tied is moronacy at it's best.

I remember one Super Bowl where the Pats were down by 3 and had plenty of time to get into field goal range...

but Brady got sacked a few times and game over.

But that wasn't his fault...his team let him down.

I do know that the one Super Bowl where the pressure was on Tom Brady on the final drive because they were actually down a score (3) rather than being tied...he didn't deliver.

What's the one thing a QB can't do in that situation? Take a sack?

Yikes.

[milkman]

ROFL

Wow that's quite the statement.

Throwing around "definites" as fact.

Manning certainly delivered against the almighty Patriots in the clutch in the AFC Championship game in 2006 when the game was on the line.

Regardless...

The Ravens have one shot. They need to score first. Period.

It's called absolutes, and you're right, I'll give you that.

Manning can deliver in the clutch, but he's consistently failed to do so, only delivering once.

[RedThat]

ROFL

Wow that's quite the statement.

Throwing around "definites" as fact.

Manning certainly delivered against the almighty Patriots in the clutch in the AFC Championship game in 2006 when the game was on the line.

Regardless...

The Ravens have one shot. They need to score first. Period.

Yup score first, win the turnover battle and control the whole game. I think it'll be a tough match up for the Colts, they've always seemed to struggle against really physical and smart teams.

[milkman]

I remember one Super Bowl where the Pats were down by 3 and had plenty of time to get into field goal range...

but Brady got sacked a few times and game over.

But that wasn't his fault...his team let him down.

I do know that the one Super Bowl where the pressure was on Tom Brady on the final drive because they were actually down a score (3) rather than being tied...he didn't deliver.

What's the one thing a QB can't do in that situation? Take a sack?

Yikes.

I've said this more than once, dumbass, so pay the fuck attention.

Brady has failed to deliver in his last three playoff losses.
That includes that SB.

But that doesn't discount the fact that he still has delivered more often than Manning.

[DBOSHO]

I remember one Super Bowl where the Pats were down by 3 and had plenty of time to get into field goal range...

but Brady got sacked a few times and game over.

But that wasn't his fault...his team let him down.

I do know that the one Super Bowl where the pressure was on Tom Brady on the final drive because they were actually down a score (3) rather than being tied...he didn't deliver.

What's the one thing a QB can't do in that situation? Take a sack?

Yikes.

Hootie do you have your What Would Peyton Do bracelets on?

[Hootie]

Brady made all of his 145 yards count, especially on the game-winning drive. Starting on the Patriots' own 17-yard line with 1:21 remaining, Brady picked up a first down with an innocent 8-yard dump to J.R. Redmond for a first down. He hooked up with Redmond again two plays later for an 11-yard reception and another first down at the New England 41.

While John Madden was talking overtime -- and judging by the silence of the dome, so were the 72,922 on hand -- the Patriots were focused on a winning field goal. Said Brady: "I was planning to go out there to win the game."

Time was now the Patriots' biggest opponent. Brady threw incomplete, then connected with Troy Brown over the middle, and Brown managed to turn up field and get out of bounds at the St. Louis 36 for a 23-yard gain. Now, with only 21 seconds left, Brady threw a short pass in the right flat to tight end Jermaine Wiggins, who fought his way to the Rams' 30-yard line. Brady calmly spiked the ball to stop the clock with seven seconds to play.

Wow man!

How clutch is he! The Rams gave him underneath routes and he sure stepped up and made those 3 yard throws to allow Vinatieri to drill that 48 yard extra point chip shot!

Captain clutch knows how to work those flats that those awesome prevent defenses allow!

[Hootie]

It's called absolutes, and you're right, I'll give you that.

Manning can deliver in the clutch, but he's consistently failed to do so, only delivering once.

oh he's delivered more than once...

Unless of course we're talking about Super Bowl rings...which apparently we are...

so yeah, you're right...Brady has 3 rings to Manning's 1...that is fact, I'll give you that.

[DBOSHO]

Wow man!

How clutch is he! The Rams gave him underneath routes and he sure stepped up and made those 3 yard throws to allow Vinatieri to drill that 48 yard extra point chip shot!

Captain clutch knows how to work those flats that those awesome prevent defenses allow!

Its funny how you knock me and other posters for "discrediting" peyton, when you do the exact same thing with brady.

[Baby Lee]

The time has come. There has to be something BEYOND full retard to describe Hootie.

I submit, 'Hootie's gone plaidtard.'

[milkman]

Wow man!

How clutch is he! The Rams gave him underneath routes and he sure stepped up and made those 3 yard throws to allow Vinatieri to drill that 48 yard extra point chip shot!

Captain clutch knows how to work those flats that those awesome prevent defenses allow!

Who doesn't play prevent these days?

He made the plays he had to get them into position to win.

Any argument to suggest he didn't perform in the clutch is just hot air.

[Hootie]

Hootie do you have your What Would Peyton Do bracelets on?

at least milkman is intelligent...

I don't have any idea who you are and I certainly have zero interest in anything you have to say...

Until you learn how to type like an adult...I'll continue to show zero interest in any point you try to make.

[milkman]

oh he's delivered more than once...

Unless of course we're talking about Super Bowl rings...which apparently we are...

so yeah, you're right...Brady has 3 rings to Manning's 1...that is fact, I'll give you that.

No, he only delivered once, against the Patriots in that SB run.

That's it.

[Hootie]

The time has come. There has to be something BEYOND full retard to describe Hootie.

I submit, 'Hootie's gone plaidtard.'

I enjoy your commentary but lets face the facts...

At least I back up my stance on subjects...

At least I don't dedicate posts like the one you just made to push my agenda...

Have you said ANYTHING intelligent in this entire thread?

I think your stance is this...

"Brady is clutch, Peyton Manning chokes."

Yet you provide no insight to your opinion...

Wow...thanks for your contributions!

[Ebolapox]

FYP

wait, steve bono was more talented than steve young? your edit made NO sense there.

the cassel/brady situation reminds me of the young/bono situation, except they gave us the less talented guy this time

[Hootie]

No, he only delivered once, against the Patriots in that SB run.

That's it.

so he wasn't any good against the Chiefs in 2003? The Broncos in 2003?

The Broncos in 2004?

Those are a few examples...

Yet I guess we can just overlook those because he lost to superior Patriots teams who were cheating over those years...

No big deal, right?

[DBOSHO]

at least milkman is intelligent...

I don't have any idea who you are and I certainly have zero interest in anything you have to say...

Until you learn how to type like an adult...I'll continue to show zero interest in any point you try to make.

K

and until you use your brain before posting stupid shit to defend your man crush, noone will take you seriously

[Hootie]

I mean...

Peyton Manning had a perfect QB rating against Denver in 2003 in the playoffs...with 5 TD's...and followed that up by beating the Chiefs in a hostile Arrowhead environment in a game that featured no punts...

But those don't count...he didn't deliver in those games...

We'll just point out his 3 shitty games against the Patriots...a team who lost draft picks, significant ones, for CHEATING over those years...

and we'll turn a blind eye at Tom Brady and his postseason "chokes"...

For every Peyton Manning choke, I can match it with a Tom Brady choke...

Just so you know.

[Hootie]

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?

[Hootie]

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?

[DBOSHO]

I mean...

Peyton Manning had a perfect QB rating against Denver in 2003 in the playoffs...with 5 TD's...and followed that up by beating the Chiefs in a hostile Arrowhead environment in a game that featured no punts...

But those don't count...he didn't deliver in those games...

We'll just point out his 3 shitty games against the Patriots...a team who lost draft picks, significant ones, for CHEATING over those years...

and we'll turn a blind eye at Tom Brady and his postseason "chokes"...

For every Peyton Manning choke, I can match it with a Tom Brady choke...

Just so you know.

The only thing your are accomplishing here is running up your post count.

[Hootie]

The only thing your are accomplishing here is running up your post count.

so what are you accomplishing?

[Hootie]

the problem with this debate is my posts are FULL of substance...because I have statistics and GAME PROVIDED evidence to back up my claims...

So the debate always hits a brick wall because the Brady backers have nothing to turn to eventually...

Shit milkman played the "Peyton Manning is a pussy in the pocket" card because they TRULY have nothing left and that is what they are down to.

[DBOSHO]

so what are you accomplishing?

Thought you werent going to acknowledge me? I dont say anything of interest to you, remember.

To answer your question, im managing to not make myself look like a retard, unlike you.

[Hootie]

well that's rich right there LMAO

[DBOSHO]

so what are you accomplishing?

Thought you werent going to acknowledge me? I dont say anything of interest to you, remember.

To answer your question, im managing to not make myself look like a retard, unlike you.

[DBOSHO]

well that's rich right there LMAO

You know what else is rich? That response. Because you know noone here respects your opinions, at least on this subject. Just read the threa.

[Christofire]

Brady has to be considered top 10 all time based on Super Bowls and winning percentage alone. His best traits are his accuracy, efficiency and decisionmaking.

I think the 16-0 season and record-setting year has put him contention for top 5, but I feel like he needs at least one or two more epic moments to crack the top 3.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Pioli Zombie]

once again, if tom couldnt touch peyton that year, why couldnt he get to the superbowl. Peyton can put the whole team on his back, remember.

So what happened?
So when Manning put up 3 points against New England in the 2004 playoffs was that Manning "choking in the biggest game of his life" like Brady against the Giants? And why was the SB against the Giants the biggest game of his life? He played and won 3 other Super Bowls. They were pretty big too.
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?

I saw that argument with Hamas, and I'd have to say that as much I hate agree with you in any debate, I do agree with you on that.

[Pioli Zombie]

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?
How about playing like shit against the Jets in the 2002 playoffs!, throwing 4 picks in the 2003 AFCCG, putting up 3 points against the Patriots in 2004, playing like shit against the Steelers in 2005 and Chargers in 2007 and 2008.
Was that devastating to his team?
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

the problem with this debate is my posts are FULL of substance...because I have statistics and GAME PROVIDED evidence to back up my claims...

So the debate always hits a brick wall because the Brady backers have nothing to turn to eventually...

Shit milkman played the "Peyton Manning is a pussy in the pocket" card because they TRULY have nothing left and that is what they are down to.

The point, dumbass, is that in offense that is predicated on timing, the QB has to be able to stand in the pocket and deliver the pass at the right time.

The chance that it might lead to injury is greater, so one could argue that he's protecting the Colts chances.

However, Kurt Warner stands in the pocket and delivers in the face of pressure, which has left him playing with a lot of nicks and dings, and a couple injuries, including a thumb which had a huge affect on his performance for a couple years.

[milkman]

I mean...

Peyton Manning had a perfect QB rating against Denver in 2003 in the playoffs...with 5 TD's...and followed that up by beating the Chiefs in a hostile Arrowhead environment in a game that featured no punts...

But those don't count...he didn't deliver in those games...

We'll just point out his 3 shitty games against the Patriots...a team who lost draft picks, significant ones, for CHEATING over those years...

and we'll turn a blind eye at Tom Brady and his postseason "chokes"...

For every Peyton Manning choke, I can match it with a Tom Brady choke...

Just so you know.

Do you not understand "in the clutch, late in games"?

Other than that shitty game against the shitty Chiefs defense when he nearly pissed away the game to a terrible Chiefs team, playing well against far inferior opponents is not surprising.

He should.

I'm talking about making plays against top tier teams with top defenses in the face of consistent pressure, late in games when he needs to lead his team to scores.

He's delivered only once.

[Pioli Zombie]

I mean...

Peyton Manning had a perfect QB rating against Denver in 2003 in the playoffs...with 5 TD's...and followed that up by beating the Chiefs in a hostile Arrowhead environment in a game that featured no punts...

But those don't count...he didn't deliver in those games...

We'll just point out his 3 shitty games against the Patriots...a team who lost draft picks, significant ones, for CHEATING over those years...

and we'll turn a blind eye at Tom Brady and his postseason "chokes"...

For every Peyton Manning choke, I can match it with a Tom Brady choke...

Just so you know.
I love this. I just pointed out all of Mannings chokes. Please match it.
Hootie. Nobody has made the stupid claim that Manning is not a great qb. You are the one has knocked Brady. You haven't made a credible case.
And you make up false stats, like Brady led the Patriots on 20 yard drives so that Vinatieri could kick 45 yard fgs. In SB 36 the drive was 53 yards in 1:21 with no timeouts. The SB 38 drive was 30 with a minute and no timeout after he had passed for over 300 yards and led them on a clutch TD drive to put them ahead before Carolina came back with a quick TD pass to Proehl.
Try not making up shit to make a moronic point.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Pioli Zombie]

The point, dumbass, is that in offense that is predicated on timing, the QB has to be able to stand in the pocket and deliver the pass at the right time.

The chance that it might lead to injury is greater, so one could argue that he's protecting the Colts chances.

However, Kurt Warner stands in the pocket and delivers in the face of pressure, which has left him playing with a lot of nicks and dings, and a couple injuries, including a thumb which had a huge affect on his performance for a couple years.
Super Bowl 36 proved to me how tough Kurt Warner is. The Patriots beat him up and he kept coming and coming and coming and if the Patriots don't get that last drive the Rams win in OT. Warner is a first ballot hall of famer.
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

Super Bowl 36 proved to me how tough Kurt Warner is. The Patriots beat him up and he kept coming and coming and coming and if the Patriots don't get that last drive the Rams win in OT. Warner is a first ballot hall of famer.
Posted via Mobile Device

You know, I hate the whole "culture" thing that has been coming up in changing a team's fortunes in the last few years, but the fact is, as Colin Cowherd said on his show, Warner has changed the culture of two moribund franchises.

If he doesn't get into the HoF on the first ballot, there needs to be an investigation.

[Marcellus]

You know, I hate the whole "culture" thing that has been coming up in changing a team's fortunes in the last few years, but the fact is, as Colin Cowherd said on his show, Warner has changed the culture of two moribund franchises.

If he doesn't get into the HoF on the first ballot, there needs to be an investigation.

Yea, the last 2 years should have printed his ticket. There is no reasonable way to deny it.

Is there an undafted QB currently in the HOF?

[milkman]

Yea, the last 2 years should have printed his ticket. There is no reasonable way to deny it.

Is there an undafted QB currently in the HOF?

Don't know.

Otto Graham, maybe.

Bart Starr was a 17th round selection.

[Marcellus]

Don't know.

Otto Graham, maybe.

Bart Starr was a 17th round selection.

I thought about that after I posted the question. It's hard to compare old school to now with all the draft rounds there used to be. Of course there were fewer teams back then so there are more players taken each round now and fewer each round back then.

Then you have the issue of there being the AFL and NFL both drafting players for 10 or so years.

I would say modern era there probably isn't an UDFA QB in the HOF.

[Pioli Zombie]

Hootie thinks Bart Starr was just a game manager.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Baby Lee]

I enjoy your commentary but lets face the facts...

At least I back up my stance on subjects...

At least I don't dedicate posts like the one you just made to push my agenda...

Have you said ANYTHING intelligent in this entire thread?

I think your stance is this...

"Brady is clutch, Peyton Manning chokes."

Yet you provide no insight to your opinion...

Wow...thanks for your contributions!

What's to argue, the facts are what they are. Most everyone on here discussing them are well acquainted with each and every one of them. And all we can do with them at this point is bicker over which facts is more important than other facts.

I watched each and every moment of both player's careers in the playoffs and have made my assessment. Until NEW facts, previously unearthed and outside those observations, come to light, all we're doing is saying 'these fact prove X more definitively than thoser facts prove Y.' And all that is, is you [royal you] own personal hierarchy or the relative gravity of facts.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

So much of what a QB is goes to the system they are in and the talent around them.

Look at Kurt Warner. Great, horrible, great again. Remember, he was cut in St. Louis and bombed in NY. He didn't even start an NFL game at all until he was 28 years old. And, in 2000, Trent Green had a higher passer rating with the same talent. (Green was the backup and played 7 games).

And, now, he is a 'sure' HOF'er.

Brady went from 'game manager' in the fans' eyes to elite QB, and now back to game manager.

The key is a good offense, time in the offense and comfort level in the offense, and surrounding talent.

[ChiefsCountry]

Is there an undafted QB currently in the HOF?

Warren Moon

[Marcellus]

Warren Moon

Oh yea, went to Canada first. Thanks.

[RedThat]

Warren Moon

Out of all the quarterbacks ive seen, that guy threw the best ball imo. Bold statement I know.

[Pioli Zombie]

Out of all the quarterbacks ive seen, that guy threw the best ball imo. Bold statement I know.
I agree, unfortunately, as clutch as he was in Canada, he always managed to make one play less than he had to in the NFL playoffs. I'd rank him with Marino,Tarkenton, and Fouts in the early teens.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Sweet Dick Willy]

Again What was the alternative??? Even Sanchez is at best a game manager.
And you just said game managers have won super bowls. Brady was in 2001. All I'm saying is give the guy an OC and a decent supporting cast and a fucking chance if after this year the Chiefs aren't at least 8-8 and Cassel hasn't improved a ton then flame away. But to make these judgements that he and Pioli are failures already is assinine.
Posted via Mobile Device

At best? LMAO. Yeah, his ceiling is pretty well defined.

That said, of course Cassel needs more tools/weapons surrounding him.

The thing they don't get or refuse to acknowledge, is that unlike Sirs Brady and Cassel, whose college careers could best be defined as a non-existent, well-executed fart, Mark Sanchez actually played as a starter and a leader for his team, and led them to a Bowl.
And as such, his difficulties at the pro level are do largely in part to his refusal to give up on the play. Forcing, trying to make something happen when he should know to let it go. That comes with time and experience, and his arm and mechanics are just fine.
He'll do fine or better than fine as the years roll by.
Of course, being part of an organization that doesn't have it's head up it's ass helps as well, yes.

[RedThat]

I agree, unfortunately, as clutch as he was in Canada, he always managed to make one play less than he had to in the NFL playoffs. I'd rank him with Marino,Tarkenton, and Fouts in the early teens.
Posted via Mobile Device

The Houston Oilers may in fact be one of the greatest non-superbowl teams. But they just always managed to choke for some reason and Moon had to be a part of that which was the sad part.

I think had he played more he would have shattered Elway, Marino, Tarkenton all those guys records. Imagine if you add 5 more years of NFL experience to his career? If you add up the total amount of passing yards from both his CFL and NFL career I think its equal to or greater than 70,000 :eek: THAT is phenomenal

And if he won championships in the NFL, people would be talking about him as the greatest ever. Although he was a winner, you just don't hear much of the CFL since it is a lower class league. Moon is top 5 in my books.

[Mecca]

I wonder how many people that read this thread even know what the Montreal screwjob even refers to.

[RedThat]

I wonder how many people that read this thread even know what the Montreal screwjob even refers to.

Doesn't that have to do with wrestling?

[el borracho]

Well, if that is the way they feel about it, I would gladly trade them back Cassel and Vrabel for the Pat's 2nd this April.

[Sweet Dick Willy]

Well, if that is the way they feel about it, I would gladly trade them back Cassel and Vrabel for the Pat's 2nd this April.

Discount pricing IS available.

[keg in kc]

I wonder how many people that read this thread even know what the Montreal screwjob even refers to.It's what happens when a straight guy walks into a a montreal strip club advertising "danseurs".

['Hamas' Jenkins]

It was Bill Simmons' dad, a guy who if you ever read his columns, is the most fickle fan imaginable.

Jesus, you're a fucking retard.

[chiefs1111]

Doesn't that have to do with wrestling?

Yup

[milkman]

Moon is top 5 in my books.

Moon was a hell of QB, but top 5?

What hell is your dumb ass smoking?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The thing I love the most about this thread, other than displaying yet another facet of Hootie's unending dumbassery, is the fact that it's based on an entirely false premise.

[Hootie]

The thing I love the most about this thread, other than displaying yet another facet of Hootie's unending dumbassery, is the fact that it's based on an entirely false premise.

you don't think I know it was a tongue-in-cheek comment by Bill Simmons' dad?

I've read every piece of Bill Simmons literature for the last 8 years of my life.

[Touchdown Bowe]

To the people that were asking of Sorgi could win 11 games in Indys system..No..and only because Jim Sorgi shouldnt even be in the NFL..So what if Cassel/Brady play in a system..Obviously not everyone is capable of playin in it (See Kevin O'Connell)..If Manning had a decent backup that had to play, I wouldnt rule out a possible 10 win season

[RustShack]

So Brady is the product of the system and talent... but Manning isn't?


ROFL

['Hamas' Jenkins]

you don't think I know it was a tongue-in-cheek comment by Bill Simmons' dad?

I've read every piece of Bill Simmons literature for the last 8 years of my life.

Then perhaps you should re-read it, because the entire point of that excerpt is that

1) The fans shouldn't turn on Brady (hence the Montreal Screwjob reference)

and

2) His dad said it.

You completely missed the point, and decided to rant about how Simmons compared Brady to Cassel.

Nothing could be further from the truth, but it didn't stop you from creating this stupid fucking thread.

[RedThat]

Moon was a hell of QB, but top 5?

What hell is your dumb ass smoking?

Why not?

He has the numbers to show for that are right up there with the best. The only thing thats missing are superbowl rings. I bet if he won a few championships he'd have more of a reputation.

Once he was introduced to the run and shoot offense in houston, he flourished and I think he may have very well re-defined the quarterback position in a lot of ways during that era.

Mechanically speaking, I think he was the most polished quarterback I've ever seen. Once you combine that with the numbers, thats good enough to easily place him at the top.

Like I said, the only thing thats missing are the rings. Thats pretty much the hole in this argument. But if you want to compare his numbers, and his overall mechanics or attributes to the other great quarterbacks he can easily match or surpass them making him a top 5 quarterback.

[The Bad Guy]

So Brady is the product of the system and talent... but Manning isn't?


ROFL

I don't think either are system guys, but Manning especially isn't.

The guy is a master. An absolute master.

[milkman]

Why not?

He has the numbers to show for that are right up there with the best. The only thing thats missing are superbowl rings. I bet if he won a few championships he'd have more of a reputation.

Once he was introduced to the run and shoot offense in houston, he flourished and I think he may have very well re-defined the quarterback position in a lot of ways during that era.

Mechanically speaking, I think he was the most polished quarterback I've ever seen. Once you combine that with the numbers, thats good enough to easily place him at the top.

Like I said, the only thing thats missing are the rings. Thats pretty much the hole in this argument. But if you want to compare his numbers, and his overall mechanics or attributes to the other great quarterbacks he can easily match or surpass them making him a top 5 quarterback.

And yet, he and his Houston Oilers pissed away playoff opportunities, including giving up the largest lead in playoff history.

Great QBs with 35 point leads, even if his defense is giving up points by the boat load find a way to rally the troops and secure that win.

greatness isn't measured by stats or pretty mechanics alone.

[Brock]

Moon threw the prettiest interceptions I've ever seen.

[RedThat]

And yet, he and his Houston Oilers pissed away playoff opportunities, including giving up the largest lead in playoff history.

Great QBs with 35 point leads, even if his defense is giving up points by the boat load find a way to rally the troops and secure that win.

greatness isn't measured by stats or pretty mechanics alone.

Umm, sorry but I don't think this is a fair statement simply because I believe football is a team game. It's always going to involve more than one guy. Now, are you trying to say, you don't view Moon as a "great" leader like the other great quarterbacks?

I think it's the teams responsibilty to get together rally, perform at a high level and make all the plays necessary to win the game. Moon did his share to help his team win games, unfortunately the other guys around him didn't.

*The bottom portion of your post I can agree with, which leads me to ask you this question, what else do you believe a quarterback has to do to prove greatness?

[milkman]

Make plays when the game is on the line, and lead their teams to Championships.

And yes, great QBs are leaders that teams rally around.

[DJ's left nut]

The Patriots lost to the Ravens last week because of Tom Brady.

Not Randy Moss, not Matt Light, not Bill Belichick - Tom Brady. He played absolutely horrific football, put his team in a massive hole and played right into Baltimore's hands.

Manning simply played a competent game against an elite defense and his team won fairly easily. And when I said Manning wouldn't have taken the sack/strip like Brady did - time the brady sack against the Manning dump at the end of the 2nd half right before the TD. The situations were virtually identical, with Suggs blowing untouched around the LT and closing in the QBs blind-side. Manning felt the pressure and got the ball out, Brady didn't.

Manning is a better quarterback. He's a damn quarterbacking robot. It's virtually impossible to play the position better than he does yet some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. Those people are spending their time harping on the guy instead of realizing that the history books will likely refer to him as the greatest quarterback in NFL history when all is said and done. It's a shame, really.

I don't see much merit in the historical argument either, Mannings been the better QB over the course of their respective careers. However, I'll set that aside and acknowledge the 3 SBs point (even if I think it's crap) for the sake of mere discussion. That said, there's no argument whatsoever that Manning is presently the better QB. And I see very little debating who will be the better QB over the course of the remainder of their careers.

[BigMeatballDave]

It just makes me happy as an avid fan of the NFL to see Brady finally looked upon as what he is...

A good QB who played in a great system with all of the right pieces and was the leader of a dynasty...

but not an all-time great.You and however believes this is epically stupid.

[BigMeatballDave]

All time great to me would mean top 3-5 of all time. I mean shit even Jim Kelly and Elway are in the hall, and they're nowhere near the top 5Not really just top 3-5. Top 10-15 can be all-time.

[BigMeatballDave]

The most damning evidence of Tom Brady as a truly historic QB is Matt Cassel.

We all saw how severely lacking Matt Cassel is this season, yet in the Patriots system he won 11 games and threw for 3700 yards.

I saw a system that inflates a QBs performance by a solid 10-20%.

I guess the question you have to ask is - could the Colts have ever gone 11-5 with Jim Sorgi?

Brady sits at 11 on my all-time QB list. And ultimately I will listen to any argument that puts Warner over him as well (best pure passer of my lifetime and a guy that would've been untouchable in that NE system). Brady's a HOFer and an elite QB, but the Peyton v. Manning debate is closed, it's no contest.Do you really wanna be held in the same light as Hootie? :spock:

[BigMeatballDave]

Kinda funny I expect the Ravens to beat the Colts....the Colts run D is garbage and Ray Rice well he's good.Oops...:)

[JD10367]

I'm a Patriots fan, and even I'm sick of reading this shit and seeing "Patriots, Patriots, Patriots" all over the place, LOL.

Cassel is decent.
Brady is excellent.
Hootie doesn't like Brady.
Some of you don't like Cassel, others want to give him more time.

I think that about covers it.

[Quesadilla Joe]

Josh McDaniels aka The QB GURU.

[Saul Good]

So Brady is the product of the system and talent... but Manning isn't?


ROFL

Put Cassel under center for the Colts and tell me how many games they win.

[JD10367]

Put Cassel under center for the Colts and tell me how many games they win.

Can't speak for hypotheticals, but under center for the Patriots he won one more game than Brady. :shrug:

[chiefzilla1501]

The Patriots lost to the Ravens last week because of Tom Brady.

Not Randy Moss, not Matt Light, not Bill Belichick - Tom Brady. He played absolutely horrific football, put his team in a massive hole and played right into Baltimore's hands.

Manning simply played a competent game against an elite defense and his team won fairly easily. And when I said Manning wouldn't have taken the sack/strip like Brady did - time the brady sack against the Manning dump at the end of the 2nd half right before the TD. The situations were virtually identical, with Suggs blowing untouched around the LT and closing in the QBs blind-side. Manning felt the pressure and got the ball out, Brady didn't.

Manning is a better quarterback. He's a damn quarterbacking robot. It's virtually impossible to play the position better than he does yet some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. Those people are spending their time harping on the guy instead of realizing that the history books will likely refer to him as the greatest quarterback in NFL history when all is said and done. It's a shame, really.

I don't see much merit in the historical argument either, Mannings been the better QB over the course of their respective careers. However, I'll set that aside and acknowledge the 3 SBs point (even if I think it's crap) for the sake of mere discussion. That said, there's no argument whatsoever that Manning is presently the better QB. And I see very little debating who will be the better QB over the course of the remainder of their careers.

Brady looked horrible because he never seemed quite right after his injury. He just went through a full season putting a lot of pressure on a recovering knee. You could see it in the passes he was throwing--a lot more dead ducks than you usually see out of Brady. You could see it in his inability to slide out of protection. I don't know if this is a permanent thing. But it's definitely not reflective of his body of work.

I've always thought Manning's a better QB. But Manning and Brady, in my opinion, will and should go into the books as one of the top 10, probably even top 5 QBs of all time.

[JD10367]

Brady looked horrible because he never seemed quite right after his injury. He just went through a full season putting a lot of pressure on a recovering knee. You could see it in the passes he was throwing--a lot more dead ducks than you usually see out of Brady. You could see it in his inability to slide out of protection. I don't know if this is a permanent thing. But it's definitely not reflective of his body of work.

I've always thought Manning's a better QB. But Manning and Brady, in my opinion, will and should go into the books as one of the top 10, probably even top 5 QBs of all time.

Brady in 2009 looked a lot like Manning in 2008. The healthy Manning in 2009 looked a lot like the healthy Brady in 2007.

Manning has the physical gifts, Brady has the calmness and decision-making edge.

They're both good.

Horse. Dead. Still being beaten.

[DeezNutz]

Can't speak for hypotheticals, but under center for the Patriots he won one more game than Brady. :shrug:

He was rarely under center, and when he was he wasn't worth a fuck.

That's part of the problem.

[The Bad Guy]

He was rarely under center, and when he was he wasn't worth a ****.

That's part of the problem.

With Weis, if he doesn't show progress this year he has go to.

[DeezNutz]

With Weis, if he doesn't show progress this year he has go to.

I'll be very interested to see the results.

The coaches are in place, so all the pressure is now on the players to perform.

[Mosbonian]

With Weis, if he doesn't show progress this year he has go to.

I know when I ask you, I'll get an informed answer rather than a barrage of posts about how stupid I am....so I pose this question to you:

With Weis' knowledge of Clausen would they trade Cassel (even though he probably doesn't have any value to anyone but McDaniels in Denver) and draft Clausen instead?

We have so many more pressing needs, but my concern is that someone might talk Pioli/Haley into seeing Clausen as the QBOTF and trade Cassel for an extra draft pic.

mmaddog
*******

[chiefzilla1501]

I'll be very interested to see the results.

The coaches are in place, so all the pressure is now on the players to perform.

Agreed.

Same deal with the front office.

There's no excuse from the top down to not see significant progress in 2010.

[JD10367]

He was rarely under center, and when he was he wasn't worth a ****.

That's part of the problem.

Okay, now this can be taken two ways.

Way Number One: Cassel is a sucky quarterback who can't operate from under center.

Way Number Two: Cassel is better utilized in a spread formation shotgun-style approach, and Haley didn't know how to use him efficiently like Belichick did, so Haley was trying to pound a square peg into a round hole all year.

And both interpretations don't account for the other variables, like "having an O-line that can block" or "having targets who can get open". Although from most reports it seems like Cassel has had some time to throw and just didn't hit the target or tried to throw it to a different target. Which are problems that Bledsoe had in his final years, after being shellshocked by seasons of abuse. :shrug:

The question is, does Cassel have the brains and ability to run the Chiefs offense better. Judging from what he did in New England, I say "yes". I think having Weis will help him, since Weis will probably call more Cassel-friendly plays than Haley did.

[milkman]

I know when I ask you, I'll get an informed answer rather than a barrage of posts about how stupid I am....so I pose this question to you:

With Weis' knowledge of Clausen would they trade Cassel (even though he probably doesn't have any value to anyone but McDaniels in Denver) and draft Clausen instead?

We have so many more pressing needs, but my concern is that someone might talk Pioli/Haley into seeing Clausen as the QBOTF and trade Cassel for an extra draft pic.

mmaddog
*******

Fucking idiot.


Oh....sorry.
Instinctive reaction.

Seriously, I'd be surprised to see anyone talking Pioli into trading Cassel this year, especially after the year he had here, making his value far less than what we gave up for him.

I'd also be surprised if Weis could even talk him into draftong Clausen even without a trade simply to hedge his bet.

[JD10367]

Seriously, I'd be surprised to see anyone talking Pioli into trading Cassel this year, especially after the year he had here, making his value far less than what we gave up for him.

They're not yanking Cassel after one season. Especially not before seeing what Weis can do, and what Cassel looks like with a year of the Chiefs under his belt.

But I'd disagree with "especially after the year he had here". Yeah, he didn't look great. But he still did some things. He was 20th in passing yardage, better than Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, and some other QBs who might be considered "better than Cassel". His TD/INT ratio was dead even (as was Matt Hasselbeck's); Cutler's was one TD better than even, and Stafford and Sanchez had way more INTs than TDs.

His QB rating was 25th. Sucks, huh? But look at the 24 guys above him.

100+ to 90:
1. Brees
2. Favre
3. Rivers
4. Rodgers
5. Roethlisberger
6. P. Manning
7. Schaub
8. Romo
9. Brady
10. Warner
11. E. Manning
12. McNabb

90 to 80:
13. Flacco
14. Orton
15. Campbell
16. Palmer
17. Garrard
18. Young
19. Smith

80 to 70:
20. Ryan
21. Cutler
22. Henne
23. Hasselbeck
24. Bulger
25. Cassel (69.9)

I think it's safe to say that the top group of 13 are clearly pretty elite QBs. The rest could be mixed-and-matched IMO and the difference in their numbers can be attributed to the talent around them, the teams they played, and the bounce of the ball. I don't think David Garrard or Chad Henne are that much better than Cassel, just as I don't think Flacco, Orton, or Campbell are necessarily better than Carson Palmer.

For a guy with his first year with a new team, with a new coach (who is new at his job), and a shaky cast of characters, IMO Cassel did about what I expected. Sure, there were many games and plays he could've done better. Doesn't mean he's a bust.

[DeezNutz]

Okay, now this can be taken two ways.

Way Number One: Cassel is a sucky quarterback who can't operate from under center.

Way Number Two: Cassel is better utilized in a spread formation shotgun-style approach, and Haley didn't know how to use him efficiently like Belichick did, so Haley was trying to pound a square peg into a round hole all year.

And both interpretations don't account for the other variables, like "having an O-line that can block" or "having targets who can get open". Although from most reports it seems like Cassel has had some time to throw and just didn't hit the target or tried to throw it to a different target. Which are problems that Bledsoe had in his final years, after being shellshocked by seasons of abuse. :shrug:

The question is, does Cassel have the brains and ability to run the Chiefs offense better. Judging from what he did in New England, I say "yes". I think having Weis will help him, since Weis will probably call more Cassel-friendly plays than Haley did.

If 8 games in '09 were enough to shellshock Cassel, he's an unbelievable pussy.

He needs another viable weapon, and then he needs to perform. No excuses.

And even reading the words "Cassel-friendly [system]" make me sigh.

[philfree]

He was rarely under center, and when he was he wasn't worth a ****.

That's part of the problem.

I wish I had his under center vs shotgun snaps stats. It seemed to me that Haley had Cassel under center quite a bit. Which is why Gailey was removed from the OC job. He would have had Cassel in the pistol instead of trying to develope his skills under center.


PhilFree:arrow:

[DeezNutz]

I wish I had his under center vs shotgun snaps stats. It seemed to me that Haley had Cassel under center quite a bit. Which is why Gailey was removed from the OC job. He would have had Cassel in the pistol instead of trying to develope his skills under center.


PhilFree:arrow:

I was alluding to his time in NE, but I brought up his KC stats for the sake of comparison:

Shotgun: one of the worst QBs in the league.
Under center: one of the worst QBs in the league.

End analysis: 44/46.

(I'd be interested in the numbers, too, in all seriousness.)

[DJ's left nut]

Do you really wanna be held in the same light as Hootie? :spock:

If the alternative is be lumped in with a group that thinks Brady is comparable or even better than Payton Manning? I'll live with it.

'Cause it isn't close.

[chiefzilla1501]

If 8 games in '09 were enough to shellshock Cassel, he's an unbelievable pussy.

He needs another viable weapon, and then he needs to perform. No excuses.

I wouldn't put it that way on the first point, but the line is no excuse. That I agree with. He had good enough protection in the second half of the season and a hell of a lot better than Aaron Rodgers gets.

On the second point, that's something I also agree with. As I watched the Colts play last night, I realized that Peyton Manning actually throws to the back of his receivers quite a bit. He's not always perfect at leading his receivers. And as I watched the Saints, Brees throws a ton of passes to the receivers' back shoulder. The Saints' receivers are actually really remarkable about making in-pass adjustments to the ball. i remember a TD pass where I think it was Devery Henderson pretty much did a full 180 to make the proper adjustment to the ball on a fleaflicker. And if you watch Philip Rivers today, what you will see is probably the deadest, worst thrown ball I've ever seen in the NFL. But his receivers catch them. Of course I'm not implying that Cassel is even close to being in any of those guys' league. But I have seen the excuse thrown around that he cripples his receivers, but the more I watch playoff football, the more I realize that receivers just don't have any excuse for not catching a ball that isn't within reasonable reaching distance of their hands. Good receivers make adjustments. Chambers has done that a lot. My opinion of Bowe has taken a complete nosedive throughout this season.

[milkman]

They're not yanking Cassel after one season. Especially not before seeing what Weis can do, and what Cassel looks like with a year of the Chiefs under his belt.

But I'd disagree with "especially after the year he had here". Yeah, he didn't look great. But he still did some things. He was 20th in passing yardage, better than Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, and some other QBs who might be considered "better than Cassel". His TD/INT ratio was dead even (as was Matt Hasselbeck's); Cutler's was one TD better than even, and Stafford and Sanchez had way more INTs than TDs.

His QB rating was 25th. Sucks, huh? But look at the 24 guys above him.

100+ to 90:
1. Brees
2. Favre
3. Rivers
4. Rodgers
5. Roethlisberger
6. P. Manning
7. Schaub
8. Romo
9. Brady
10. Warner
11. E. Manning
12. McNabb

90 to 80:
13. Flacco
14. Orton
15. Campbell
16. Palmer
17. Garrard
18. Young
19. Smith

80 to 70:
20. Ryan
21. Cutler
22. Henne
23. Hasselbeck
24. Bulger
25. Cassel (69.9)

I think it's safe to say that the top group of 13 are clearly pretty elite QBs. The rest could be mixed-and-matched IMO and the difference in their numbers can be attributed to the talent around them, the teams they played, and the bounce of the ball. I don't think David Garrard or Chad Henne are that much better than Cassel, just as I don't think Flacco, Orton, or Campbell are necessarily better than Carson Palmer.

For a guy with his first year with a new team, with a new coach (who is new at his job), and a shaky cast of characters, IMO Cassel did about what I expected. Sure, there were many games and plays he could've done better. Doesn't mean he's a bust.

The thing is, in NE he showed he has the ability to play well in the right system, with a lot of surrounding talent.

In KC, he showed he doesn't have to ability to raise the level of talent around him, and in some ways drag the talent down.

[DeezNutz]

I wouldn't put it that way on the first point, but the line is no excuse. That I agree with. He had good enough protection in the second half of the season and a hell of a lot better than Aaron Rodgers gets.

On the second point, that's something I also agree with. As I watched the Colts play last night, I realized that Peyton Manning actually throws to the back of his receivers quite a bit. He's not always perfect at leading his receivers. And as I watched the Saints, Brees throws a ton of passes to the receivers' back shoulder. The Saints' receivers are actually really remarkable about making in-pass adjustments to the ball. i remember a TD pass where I think it was Devery Henderson pretty much did a full 180 to make the proper adjustment to the ball on a fleaflicker. And if you watch Philip Rivers today, what you will see is probably the deadest, worst thrown ball I've ever seen in the NFL. But his receivers catch them. Of course I'm not implying that Cassel is even close to being in any of those guys' league. But I have seen the excuse thrown around that he cripples his receivers, but the more I watch playoff football, the more I realize that receivers just don't have any excuse for not catching a ball that isn't within reasonable reaching distance of their hands. Good receivers make adjustments. Chambers has done that a lot. My opinion of Bowe has taken a complete nosedive throughout this season.

We're on the same page. But, honestly, I don't know how else to put it when I hear talk about Cassel's development being stunted because of the line. It was really bad in a handful of games. Fine. But not a problem in the second half.

What are you supposed to call a QB who can't overcome this mental obstacle?

Also, notice that Manning uses all of his options, distributing the ball to anyone, including no-name limp dicks. Magically, they catch passes and make plays. Why is this? Superior talent? Or...

I don't think Cassel throws a very catchable ball.

[philfree]

The thing is, in NE he showed he has the ability to play well in the right system, with a lot of surrounding talent.

In KC, he showed he doesn't have to ability to raise the level of talent around him, and in some ways draf the talent down.

Maybe he did? LOL They were so bad you just couldn't tell.


PhilFree:arrow:

[Mosbonian]

****ing idiot.


Oh....sorry.
Instinctive reaction..

OK..that made me laugh.



Seriously, I'd be surprised to see anyone talking Pioli into trading Cassel this year, especially after the year he had here, making his value far less than what we gave up for him.

I'd also be surprised if Weis could even talk him into draftong Clausen even without a trade simply to hedge his bet.

It would surprise me too....but I would be surprised at nothing.

I do see us taking a QB somewhere, considering the fact that it's pretty evident that Croyle is not even fit to be a backup.

mmaddog
*******

[milkman]

I wouldn't put it that way on the first point, but the line is no excuse. That I agree with. He had good enough protection in the second half of the season and a hell of a lot better than Aaron Rodgers gets.

On the second point, that's something I also agree with. As I watched the Colts play last night, I realized that Peyton Manning actually throws to the back of his receivers quite a bit. He's not always perfect at leading his receivers. And as I watched the Saints, Brees throws a ton of passes to the receivers' back shoulder. The Saints' receivers are actually really remarkable about making in-pass adjustments to the ball. i remember a TD pass where I think it was Devery Henderson pretty much did a full 180 to make the proper adjustment to the ball on a fleaflicker. And if you watch Philip Rivers today, what you will see is probably the deadest, worst thrown ball I've ever seen in the NFL. But his receivers catch them. Of course I'm not implying that Cassel is even close to being in any of those guys' league. But I have seen the excuse thrown around that he cripples his receivers, but the more I watch playoff football, the more I realize that receivers just don't have any excuse for not catching a ball that isn't within reasonable reaching distance of their hands. Good receivers make adjustments. Chambers has done that a lot. My opinion of Bowe has taken a complete nosedive throughout this season.

I think there's a difference between a poorly placed ball and a poorly thrown ball (though I would also argue that a couple of the passes you allude to here, like the Henderson catch, were actually perfectly placed throws given the coverage, but that's another debate).

Some of the drops by the Chiefs were both poorly placed and poorly thrown.

A drop by Bowe was a ball so wobbly it damn near looked like an end over end punted ball.

[The Bad Guy]

I know when I ask you, I'll get an informed answer rather than a barrage of posts about how stupid I am....so I pose this question to you:

With Weis' knowledge of Clausen would they trade Cassel (even though he probably doesn't have any value to anyone but McDaniels in Denver) and draft Clausen instead?

We have so many more pressing needs, but my concern is that someone might talk Pioli/Haley into seeing Clausen as the QBOTF and trade Cassel for an extra draft pic.

mmaddog
*******

The thing is, you aren't going to get 10cents on the dollar with Cassel. You really can't deal him at this point because there is absolutely no market for him.

I think Clausen is going to go #1 to the Rams, so it's a mute point.

I think Weis is probably one of the best groomers of QBs in the NFL. The guy knows talent and knows how to elevate talent. If Cassel can't progress with him, then we are fucked. Plain and simple.

[Marcellus]

The thing is, you aren't going to get 10cents on the dollar with Cassel. You really can't deal him at this point because there is absolutely no market for him.

I think Clausen is going to go #1 to the Rams, so it's a mute point.

I think Weis is probably one of the best groomers of QBs in the NFL. The guy knows talent and knows how to elevate talent. If Cassel can't progress with him, then we are ****ed. Plain and simple.

If he doesn't progress this year is done as he will not see the big roster bonus for 2011.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think there's a difference between a poorly placed ball and a poorly thrown ball (though I would also argue that a couple of the passes you allude to here, like the Henderson catch, were actually perfectly placed throws given the coverage, but that's another debate).
Don't get me wrong. Perfectly thrown balls. And what makes Brees so amazing is he is flawless at knowing how to throw passes that only the receiver can get to. Cassel doesn't have that. The point is, there are a ton of catches in the game where I saw Brees throw to a receiver's back shoulder and the receiver makes an in-route adjustment. I almost never see Bowe do that. I have seen Chambers do that on a number of occasions, and he's only been here half a year.

This is definitely not saying Brees is inaccurate. It's merely ripping into our receivers, namely Bowe, for never doing anything in-route to adjust to the ball.

Some of the drops by the Chiefs were both poorly placed and poorly thrown.
Some of them were. Unfortunately, a pretty good chunk of them were imperfect but very catchable passes. Like I said, if you actually watch the placement of a lot of Peyton's passes, they end up at the receiver's back hip. Sometimes that's intentional, but regardless, it's not a pass in stride and the receiver makes a necessary adjustment. Apart from Chambers and once a game (at the most) Bowe, our receivers can't catch the ball unless it is a perfect pass thrown exactly in stride. That's an enormous problem.

A drop by Bowe was a ball so wobbly it damn near looked like an end over end punted ball.
Sometimes. But I would argue that on most passes, Cassel's ball looks a hundred times better than Rivers' ball. And Chargers' receivers never drop a thing.


I'm not making excuses for Cassel. He's got to get better and he can't do 1/20 of the things yesterday's QBs did. But the more I watch the playoffs, the more I realize how much our receivers suck. And it's not just the Fitzgeralds of the world doing this. It's the Colliers, the Devery Hendersons, and the Doucets. The more I watch these guys the more I question if Bowe is any good at all.