True Fan Philosophy

[kcbubb]

I was replying to a quote on from Hamas and I thought this would be an interesting topic to get people's opinions on. His comments are below and my response is below. Please remember that these comments are taken in the context of building a team. Before I get assaulted with several comments, I don't think the Chiefs should take a lineman with there first pick because I don't think RT is worth the first pick. I think we can get one later. Here is the comment that Hamas made about being a true fan.

Actually, you dumb sonofabitch, words are constantly morphing signifiers. True Fan came to signify stupid ****s that thought that the only way to build a successful team was to have a game manager QB, to have the best OL imaginable, and to have a good defense and running game.

The True Fan is now commonly accepted to mean a risk averse drafter who constantly wants lineman at the exception of playmakers and thinks that first round playoff flameouts mean something.

Just like how douchebag's connotation changed from an actual bag that held a vaginal rinse to....well....you.

I think this is really funny. By your definition a true fan wants the best OL, to have a good defense and a good running game with a QB managing the game and taking limited risks.

hmmm.... sign me up, with the exception that I believe in developing a QB. I think the Jets are good example of how I would want to build a team. They drafted Nick Mangold at C in the first round in 2006. They also drafted D'Brickashaw Ferguson in the first round in 2006. The Jets then invested in Alan Faneca. On March 1, 2008 the New York Jets signed Faneca to a five-year, $40 million contract, with $21 million in guarantees. The contract made Faneca the highest paid offensive lineman in NFL history at the time.

Then they went after Woody, On March 2, 2008, Damien Woody and the Jets agreed to a five-year, $25 million contract with $11 million in guaranteed money.

Brandon Moore is the only starting lineman that the Jets haven't invested heavily in. He wasn't drafted.

The Jets QB was asked to manage the game. His stats are below:
Comp Att Pct Yds TD Int Sck Rate Rush Yds Rush TD FUM Lost
196 364 53.8 2,444 12 20 26 63.0 106 3 10 3


Sanchez showed a lot of potential. His stats weren't great, but he was part of a winning team. The Jets offensive standings with per game stats are below.

Pts Yds Pass Yds Rush Yds
21.8 321 148.8 172.2
17th 20th 31st 1st

Defensive Stats are as follows:

Pts Yds Pass Yds Rush Yds
14.8 252.3 153.7 98.6
1st 1st 1st 8th


The Jets almost finished last in passing and still almost made it to the Super Bowl. There defense was obviously dominant by the stats above. I think the Jets are a good blue print on how to build a team with a good defense, a good offensive line with a strong running game and also working to develop a QB. This should also be a good note for Chiefs fans to be patient with Branden Albert. I remember when many Jets fans wanted to give up on D'Brick Ferguson.

Would you consider the Jets a team that has been a true fan type of team???? If so, I guess I would be a true fan. They obviously have made their offensive line a priority.

[Mr. Laz]

so now i can't even avoid a Hamas post by using iggy or Ffvb because now people are actually hand copying Hamas posts. :cuss:


Hamas is a dumbass retard who sole purpose is to fight about ANYTHING. The D.C. forum is too boring right now so he out here trying to fight about draft stuff. The more you argue with him, the more he likes it.


ONCE AGAIN .... the term "True Fan" has nothing to do with any particular football philosophy, it was about having a season ticket and refusing to criticize the Chiefs administration.

so at least make up some other stupid point of reference that actually has something to do with what your talking about.

[DeezNutz]

So, build the line first and then find the QB, right?

Agreed.

The Chargers were dumb as **** for acquiring Rivers when they did, same with the Colts and Manning. And, talk about cart before the horse, Cutler and then Clady? Stupid. And if the Steelers could go back and do it all over again, Roethlisberger was terrible long-term value. Look at their line. Embarrassing. It's going to take years to get that thing right.

And, on this board, I think we all know what True Fan stands for.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Laz,

If I had gonorrhea it'd have better football opinions than you. I'd trust a nut crab over one of your takes.

To KC Bubb, here is the complete manifesto:

Do you lie awake at nights dreaming of 8-8, or 9-7?

Do you judge a season as a success by a Wild Card birth?

Do you believe that defenses and running games are more important than franchise QBs?

Do you hate wide receivers?

Do you love coaches with a complete inability to spot talent at the running back position?

Do you think that 3-13 is better for the long term future of the franchise than 2-14?

Do you think the 2002 Bucs and 2000 Ravens are model NFL teams to aspire to?

Do you find playoff records to be irrelevant?

Do you believe that guards and right tackles should be taken with top five picks?

Do you believe that a quarterback is best served as a game manager?

Do you believe that every 3rd Down play should either be a screen or a draw?

Do you believe kicker is the most important position on the offense?

Do you believe that all of the best prospects reside in the Big XII?

Do you believe in trading down in any situation during the draft?

Do you believe that a team is better served picking 20 rather than 5 because they don't have to pay the player as much?

Do you believe that the only way to be a winning team is to throw money at the most expensive Free Agents every year, regardless of need?

Do you judge QBOTF by their box scores?

Do you think that risk is scary, and therefore, wish to draft last in every round to avoid the perception of failure?

Do you think that Marty and Bill Cowher are the only two coaches left on the planet?

Do you think that Gunther was once a great coordinator?

Do you think that reaction is safer than action?

Do you think every other team that actually drafted a QBOTF just 'got lucky' and that it could never happen to us?

Is your name [alias of claythan and hootie]?

Do you prefer tailgating to Championships?

Do you fear the unknown?

Do you believe that 'being close in the 4th quarter' is the objective of an offense?

Do you believe that the run sets up the pass?

Do you believe that Stafford "has done nothing worth mentioning" in college?

Do you think QBs don't need to know how to play from under the center, and that learning 5 and 7 step drops is irrelevant because once Thigpen completed a 7 yard pass to a hall of fame tight end in quadruple coverage?



If so, you may suffer from TFS, True Fan Syndrome. Here at the ChiefsPlanet Clinic, our staff of experts can help rid you of this debilitating malady. Through study of game tape of such contests as Super Bowl XXIII we can help ameliorate the effects of play not to lose football.

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[milkman]

So, build the line first and then find the QB, right?

Agreed.

The Chargers were dumb as **** for acquiring Rivers when they did, same with the Colts and Manning. And, talk about cart before the horse, Cutler and then Clady? Stupid. And if the Steelers could go back and do it all over again, Roethlisberger was terrible long-term value. Look at their line. Embarrassing. It's going to take years to get that thing right.

And, on this board, I think we all know what True Fan stands for.

The interesting thing about this is that in using the Jets as an example, he cited a team that realized that while building a team with a string D, a good O-Line and solid running game, they still are a team that understands the value of having a franchise or potential franchise QB, to win, having traded for Brett Favre, then trading up to draft Mark Sanchez.

I would venture to guess, and let me stress that this only only speculation on my part, had they seen an opportunity to draft a potential franchise QB at any other time, they would have in order to avoid the use of som many resourses to acquire one.

In short, they built the team the way they did, not by choice neccessarily, but due to circumstance.

[Saccopoo]

In short, they built the team the way they did, not by choice neccessarily, but due to circumstance.

So, the Chiefs, facing the 2010 draft and potentially being able to draft the best tackle in the draft (Okung) and the best center in the draft (Pouncey) due to the lack of what people would consider a "franchise" level quarterback, would, themselves, be in roughly the same set of circumstances that the Jets were in during the 2006 draft.

[milkman]

So, the Chiefs, facing the 2010 draft and potentially being able to draft the best tackle in the draft (Okung) and the best center in the draft (Pouncey) due to the lack of what people would consider a "franchise" level quarterback, would, themselves, be in roughly the same set of circumstances that the Jets were in during the 2006 draft.

The difference is that I believe that Albert still has huge potential at LT.

However, assuming Clausen isn't there, or that he isn't a potential franchise QB, I would rather see them draft Davis or Bulaga than Okung.

I don't believe Okung is ever going to be more than a mediocre LT, and will probably end up at RT in a couple of years.

[melbar]

The other side is the gambler/ non-fan side that resembles say the Raiders philosophy. You go for workout/ flashy guys like say Gholston or J Russel over football players with solid work ethic and technique. If not being a Mecca/ Hamas lemming makes you a "true fan" sign me up. Games are still won in the trenches. Defense wins games. Get to their QB, protect yours. Draft a QB and develop him but be ready to protect him. Maybe its a matter of which came first the line or the QB, but stating your opinion in a respectful and intelligent manner goes a long way. It seems that being a "true fan" depends upon whether your capable of those things or not.

[DeezNutz]

The other side is the gambler/ non-fan side that resembles say the Raiders philosophy. You go for workout/ flashy guys like say Gholston or J Russel over football players with solid work ethic and technique. If not being a Mecca/ Hamas lemming makes you a "true fan" sign me up. Games are still won in the trenches. Defense wins games. Get to their QB, protect yours. Draft a QB and develop him but be ready to protect him. Maybe its a matter of which came first the line or the QB, but stating your opinion in a respectful and intelligent manner goes a long way. It seems that being a "true fan" depends upon whether your capable of those things or not.

Since we haven't tried to focus on drafting and developing our own QB in damn near 30 years (but in the interim have had some of the most dominant lines in the NFL), shouldn't it be time to give it another try?

[BossChief]

The other side is the gambler/ non-fan side that resembles say the Raiders philosophy. You go for workout/ flashy guys like say Gholston or J Russel over football players with solid work ethic and technique. If not being a Mecca/ Hamas lemming makes you a "true fan" sign me up. Games are still won in the trenches. Defense wins games. Get to their QB, protect yours. Draft a QB and develop him but be ready to protect him. Maybe its a matter of which came first the line or the QB, but stating your opinion in a respectful and intelligent manner goes a long way. It seems that being a "true fan" depends upon whether your capable of those things or not.

Over that last ten or so years, almost all of the superbowl winning teams have basically no invested first round draft picks at offensive line.

Argue that point.

[RustShack]

True fans don't want to draft a QB in the first round because we drafted the gimmick offense bust last time, yet the only QB the will give their blessing to draft are ones from the spread. Carl Cronies at their finest.

[milkman]

The other side is the gambler/ non-fan side that resembles say the Raiders philosophy. You go for workout/ flashy guys like say Gholston or J Russel over football players with solid work ethic and technique. If not being a Mecca/ Hamas lemming makes you a "true fan" sign me up. Games are still won in the trenches. Defense wins games. Get to their QB, protect yours. Draft a QB and develop him but be ready to protect him. Maybe its a matter of which came first the line or the QB, but stating your opinion in a respectful and intelligent manner goes a long way. It seems that being a "true fan" depends upon whether your capable of those things or not.

The old saying is that defense wins championships, and that was true years ago.

But look at this year's SB.

Indy v. New Orleans.

Middle of the pack defenses.

Today's NFL requires a top flight QB, weapons on the edge at WR, and a running game that can simply take some pressure off the QB.

Outstanding defense will win you some games, but it better damn well be an all time great defense if you hope to win a championship, and it has maintain that level of greatness for years if you want to compete for and win multiple championships.

[Saccopoo]

Since we haven't tried to focus on drafting and developing our own QB in damn near 30 years (but in the interim have had some of the most dominant lines in the NFL), shouldn't it be time to give it another try?

http://www.kcchiefsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/BrodieCroyle4.jpg

[BossChief]

:facepalm:

[BossChief]

even to me, a third rounder with career injury problems doesnt count.

[Saccopoo]

even to me, a third rounder with career injury problems doesnt count.

First round or bust for the drafturbators ultimate circle jerk!

[RustShack]

Maybe we can draft and develop Snead behind Cassel with Weis.

[Saccopoo]

Maybe we can draft and develop Snead behind Cassel with Weis.

What's wrong with Brodie? He's a Chief pick. He's got an absolute cannon for an arm. The players say he has an excellent demeanor and presence in the huddle. He's been in the system. Give him even a modicum of pass protection up front and I bet dollars to donuts he'd kick ass. Hell, let him play with a decent running back for once. He's been the starter once, I don't see why he couldn't be the starter again.

[RustShack]

Your right he is a Chiefs pick, but hes not a Pioli, Haley, or Weis pick. I personally do like Croyle a lot, but some teams carry more than two QB's.

[RustShack]

I personally do like Croyle, but I've read that Weis doesn't think he fits.

[DeezNutz]

.

Love the joke post.

He's physically not capable of playing in the NFL. It's not difficult to understand.

[BossChief]

What's wrong with Brodie? He's a Chief pick. He's got an absolute cannon for an arm. The players say he has an excellent demeanor and presence in the huddle. He's been in the system. Give him even a modicum of pass protection up front and I bet dollars to donuts he'd kick ass. Hell, let him play with a decent running back for once. He's been the starter once, I don't see why he couldn't be the starter again.

You cant be serious.

I LOVE the idea of him having adamantium installed, but it is highly unlikely.

I am a big Brodie fan and know a lot of what he and his family have done for under-privileged families and children since he was very young. The man is a natural leader and has a legitimate NFL arm.

but with glass for bones....

[Saccopoo]

Love the joke post.

He's physically not capable of playing in the NFL. It's not difficult to understand.

That hit he took would have broken the leg of every quarterback in this league. Piss poor pass protection resulting in getting high-low'ed doesn't mean the guy is glass. I know that he's been injured, but the injuries that he took with the Chiefs were just bad luck. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't love his arm and demeanor.

Give the guy an NFL caliber right tackle and center. (Hoping beyond hope that you fuckers are correct about Albert and he works out at LT.) Let him play with Charles instead of Larry. Don't waste that incredible arm because of a couple of freak occurrences that were beyond his control. I hope the Chiefs give him a real chance this next season.

Don't be such a killjoy Deez. A guy can dream a little dream can't he?

[BossChief]

Brodie is just one of those players that isnt able to avoid injury. It didnt start in the NFL...it didnt start in college, he has always gotten hurt.

Why do you think a guy like him fell to the third round in the first place?

[DeezNutz]

That hit he took would have broken the leg of every quarterback in this league. Piss poor pass protection resulting in getting high-low'ed doesn't mean the guy is glass. I know that he's been injured, but the injuries that he took with the Chiefs were just bad luck. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't love his arm and demeanor.

Give the guy an NFL caliber right tackle and center. (Hoping beyond hope that you ****ers are correct about Albert and he works out at LT.) Let him play with Charles instead of Larry. Don't waste that incredible arm because of a couple of freak occurrences that were beyond his control. I hope the Chiefs give him a real chance this next season.

Don't be such a killjoy Deez. A guy can dream a little dream can't he?

The last thing he needs is more linemen. They would just increase the possibility of him tripping over another one and missing another training camp and weeks of the regular season.

Look, if Croyle had the proper body type, he'd be Stafford.

And if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle.

Unfortunately, consistent trends do not equal "bad luck."

[Saccopoo]

Brodie is just one of those players that isnt able to avoid injury. It didnt start in the NFL...it didnt start in college, he has always gotten hurt.

Why do you think a guy like him fell to the third round in the first place?

I know, but there has got to be a point where his bad luck with that crap runs out and he finally gets to put it together. I mean, the fucking guy throws lasers. And his teammates like him and respond to him. It's damn near heartbreaking to not see him out there because of those bad luck injuries. You saw it when his knee went. The guy was pissed. He knew that was his real chance to do it in this league and bad protection resulting in a freak high-low hit that, as I said, would have broken the knee of any QB in this league, did him in. My heart went out to him at that point. He knew. I knew. We all knew. The reputation for injuries and then something beyond his control happens and...eh.

Maybe this is what he's supposed to be. I mean, he's now the guy the defense goes against in practice as the "opposing offense" guy and with his arm, they are going to have to really get better in defending the pass. There aren't many guys in the league with that type of arm. And he's a guy that you know could come into a game or two and be very effective. A backup NFL QB isn't a bad gig at all.

[kcbubb]

I know, but there has got to be a point where his bad luck with that crap runs out and he finally gets to put it together. I mean, the ****ing guy throws lasers. And his teammates like him and respond to him. It's damn near heartbreaking to not see him out there because of those bad luck injuries. You saw it when his knee went. The guy was pissed. He knew that was his real chance to do it in this league and bad protection resulting in a freak high-low hit that, as I said, would have broken the knee of any QB in this league, did him in. My heart went out to him at that point. He knew. I knew. We all knew. The reputation for injuries and then something beyond his control happens and...eh.

Maybe this is what he's supposed to be. I mean, he's now the guy the defense goes against in practice as the "opposing offense" guy and with his arm, they are going to have to really get better in defending the pass. There aren't many guys in the league with that type of arm. And he's a guy that you know could come into a game or two and be very effective. A backup NFL QB isn't a bad gig at all.

What I don't get is why can't Brodie put on some weight??? He's skinny. What does the guy weigh??? I would feel more confident in him if he at least looked the part. The guy should be 225 lbs.

[DeezNutz]

What I don't get is why can't Brodie put on some weight??? He's skinny. What does the guy weigh??? I would feel more confident in him if he at least looked the part. The guy should be 225 lbs.

I keep looking down and wondering, "Why can't my man penis be smaller? Why do I have to carry the burden, literally, of going through life with an enormous phallus?"

[milkman]

I keep looking down and wondering, "Why can't my man penis be smaller? Why do I have to carry the burden, literally, of going through life with an enormous phallus?"

I believe that Lorena Bobbitt has the cure for what ails ya.

[DeezNutz]

I believe that Lorena Bobbitt has the cure for what ails ya.

Bad luck.

[milkman]

Bad luck.

Hee Haw

[Chiefnj2]

True fan used to be someone who supported the organization no matter what. Now it has morphed into people who don't necessarily agree with the drafturbators on draft picks.

[RustShack]

Actually a true fan thinks like Carl and drafting a LT is the type of move he would make this year.

[Mecca]

True fan in my view is a really simple way to describe someone who wants to continue to do things the way the Chiefs have done things for about 20 years now.

[Saccopoo]

Actually a true fan thinks like Carl and drafting a LT is the type of move he would make this year.

No, Carl would have drafted a guard in the first round and project him into the left tackle spot. Carl drafts Fujita in the fifth round, watches him lead the team in tackles for two straight seasons, and then trades him for a sixth round pick. Carl is flipping through channels, happens upon the Senior Bowl and is impressed by a UNC defensive tackle that happened to play right next to Julius Peppers and thinks that he's gonna be super good. Carl is a guy that passes on low position value guy Troy Polamalu and drafts big time playmaker deluxe Larry Johnson. Carl is a guy that picks Eddie Freeman, Junior Siavi and Kawika Mitchell in the second round based on huge "boom/bust" potential. Carl brought in big name free agents that were the missing piece to the Chiefs post season glories.

In other words, Carl was the wet dream GM of drafturbators everywhere.

A true fan never liked Carl. Carl perverted and abused the entire concept of what a true fan is - a person who remains positive about the team and hopes that they will get to the point where they can contend for a NFL championship through solid contributing players. Teams like the Colts. The Patriots. The teams Carl never wanted to build.

[Mecca]

That's actually not a real true assessment...

Carl trusted his coaches and let them have the guys they wanted, and the Chiefs were never big time FA players, they always signed 2nd tier guys.

Real GM's make the picks and if their coaches don't like it they don't care.

[Saccopoo]

That's actually not a real true assessment...

Carl trusted his coaches and let them have the guys they wanted, and the Chiefs were never big time FA players, they always signed 2nd tier guys.

Real GM's make the picks and if their coaches don't like it they don't care.

Just like Eddie Freeman, Ryan Sims and Junior Siavii. You got to know that the coaches were all over that shit. It wasn't the coaches, it was King Carl. He handed the keys over once the draft was done. He was clean and clear at that point and time to head to the Plaza for a martini.

Free agents like Donnie Edwards post-Chargers. Vonnie Holliday. (The guy has got to be regretting that decision at this point in his career.) Kendrell Bell. Etc., et al.

Coaches had to love Carl.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

No, Carl would have drafted a guard in the first round and project him into the left tackle spot. Carl drafts Fujita in the fifth round, watches him lead the team in tackles for two straight seasons, and then trades him for a sixth round pick. Carl is flipping through channels, happens upon the Senior Bowl and is impressed by a UNC defensive tackle that happened to play right next to Julius Peppers and thinks that he's gonna be super good. Carl is a guy that passes on low position value guy Troy Polamalu and drafts big time playmaker deluxe Larry Johnson. Carl is a guy that picks Eddie Freeman, Junior Siavi and Kawika Mitchell in the second round based on huge "boom/bust" potential. Carl brought in big name free agents that were the missing piece to the Chiefs post season glories.

In other words, Carl was the wet dream GM of drafturbators everywhere.

A true fan never liked Carl. Carl perverted and abused the entire concept of what a true fan is - a person who remains positive about the team and hopes that they will get to the point where they can contend for a NFL championship through solid contributing players. Teams like the Colts. The Patriots. The teams Carl never wanted to build.

You're a fucking idiot.

Carl gave his coaches carte blanche in the draft. The one time he stepped in was when he drafted LJ over Tyler Brayton.

Sims wasn't drafted because of what "Carl" saw at the Senior Bowl, he was drafted because John Bunting was a personal friend of Vermeil and raved about him.

The Chiefs never broke the bank on a single free agent. They always signed second tier guys.

Furthermore, Fujita wasn't traded b/c of Carl, he was traded because of Gunther. Fujita said this himself. There was a thread about it on this site two weeks ago.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

True fan used to be someone who supported the organization no matter what. Now it has morphed into people who don't necessarily agree with the drafturbators on draft picks.

True fans are still the morons who support the organization no matter what.

Tyson Jackson, the Cassel trade, switching to the 3-4, Colin Brown, signing no one but bums from the tree. It's no different than the idiots who thought Herm and Martyball could lead us to the promised land.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The other side is the gambler/ non-fan side that resembles say the Raiders philosophy. You go for workout/ flashy guys like say Gholston or J Russel over football players with solid work ethic and technique. If not being a Mecca/ Hamas lemming makes you a "true fan" sign me up. Games are still won in the trenches. Defense wins games. Get to their QB, protect yours. Draft a QB and develop him but be ready to protect him. Maybe its a matter of which came first the line or the QB, but stating your opinion in a respectful and intelligent manner goes a long way. It seems that being a "true fan" depends upon whether your capable of those things or not.

Games aren't won in the trenches, anymore. The game changes and evolves. It's about protecting the quarterback. You can't harass receivers on the edges or kill them over the middle.

The game is won under center. It's not 1975 anymore.

If it were really about having a dominant defense and running game, the 2002 Bucs and 2000 Ravens would have done more than what they did.

Hell, even the Steelers last year couldn't run the ball worth a shit, nor could the Cardinals.

You pass to set up in the run in the NFL, and you can't rely on your defense to win games for you with these contact rules when QBs have 4 downs to move the chains at the end.

[DeezNutz]

Just like Eddie Freeman, Ryan Sims and Junior Siavii. You got to know that the coaches were all over that shit. It wasn't the coaches, it was King Carl. He handed the keys over once the draft was done. He was clean and clear at that point and time to head to the Plaza for a martini.

Free agents like Donnie Edwards post-Chargers. Vonnie Holliday. (The guy has got to be regretting that decision at this point in his career.) Kendrell Bell. Etc., et al.

Coaches had to love Carl.

What are you talking about? Yes, the coaches were the one championing these players.

Grandpa's boy was coaching at NC the year of the Sims pick, and Gunther was reported to be a vocal advocate of the Spitters selection.

We know when Carl went against the coach's wishes because the displeasure generally surfaced. See: Grandpa's reaction to the Larry Johnson pick.

Ok pick by Carl. Would have been nice to stay in the spot and take PollymollyUno.

[tmax63]

"Games aren't won in the trenches, anymore. The game changes and evolves. It's about protecting the quarterback."

Forgive me. I thought the o-line protected the QB and the o-line was the trenches. It's all clear now.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

"Games aren't won in the trenches, anymore. The game changes and evolves. It's about protecting the quarterback."

Forgive me. I thought the o-line protected the QB and the o-line was the trenches. It's all clear now.

Yeah, and having a great OL and no QB gets you the 90's Chiefs (with a great defense) or the Pre-Favre Vikings.

Meanwhile, of the last 4 teams to play in the Super Bowl, there were of course, 20 offensive linemen.

1 motherfucker out of those 20 was a first round draft pick: Levi Brown, who was a bust and is now a mediocre right tackle.

If you want to spend a high pick on a LT, that's fine with me. But he better be a by-god surefire Pro Bowler. You can get by with an OK LT. The Steelers, Cardinals, Saints, and Colts have all proven that.

You can't get by without an elite QB.

I don't see anything about Branden Albert that makes me think he can't be a top 10 LT. And even if he's only in the 10-15 range, that's ok too.

We need a quarterback.

[chiefzilla1501]

The old saying is that defense wins championships, and that was true years ago.

But look at this year's SB.

Indy v. New Orleans.

Middle of the pack defenses.

Today's NFL requires a top flight QB, weapons on the edge at WR, and a running game that can simply take some pressure off the QB.

Outstanding defense will win you some games, but it better damn well be an all time great defense if you hope to win a championship, and it has maintain that level of greatness for years if you want to compete for and win multiple championships.

milkman, I think that's a bit of a tall order. So basically, you're saying you have to find Big Ben, Brady, Brees, Warner or Peyton Manning. All of those guys are probably heading to the HOF. Yes, you have to continually search for that HOF QB, but you have to really be prepared just in case you're one of the 80% of teams that don't. I look at the Jets and the Vikings as two teams that had an interesting approach and both of them were actually very close to making the Super Bowl. They built with a defense and a power running game. And then they plopped in a QB.

I still believe that there's a strong argument to be made that you build your team around a defense and an electric running game, all the while searching intently for your franchise QB. If you can find that franchise QB, then yes, you can do what the Patriots did several years ago and start stacking some elite WRs on your roster to finish the puzzle.

[DeezNutz]

milkman, I think that's a bit of a tall order. So basically, you're saying you have to find Big Ben, Brady, Brees, Warner or Peyton Manning. All of those guys are probably heading to the HOF. Yes, you have to continually search for that HOF QB, but you have to really be prepared just in case you're one of the 80% of teams that don't. I look at the Jets and the Vikings as two teams that had an interesting approach and both of them were actually very close to making the Super Bowl. They built with a defense and a power running game. And then they plopped in a QB.

I still believe that there's a strong argument to be made that you build your team around a defense and an electric running game, all the while searching intently for your franchise QB. If you can find that franchise QB, then yes, you can do what the Patriots did several years ago and start stacking some elite WRs on your roster to finish the puzzle.

The Vikings are going to be another classic example of wasted talent and opportunity because of the lack of a QB.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

zilla,

I think you can win a SB if you have a decent defense and a non-fucktard coach with the following QBs:

Manning
Brees
Brady
Roethlisberger
Rodgers
Rivers

That's 1/5 of the league. I also think that Stafford, Sanchez and Ryan will be on that list in another 3 years. I'd give an outside shot to Flacco and Freeman.

That's over 1/3 of the starting QBs in the league. Even if you hate Sanchez, Flacco, and Freeman, it's still 1/4.



Now, if you want to go to war with Matt Cassel as your QB, and you expect to win the SB, you're going to need a set of skill position players like the '99 Rams (with a top 5 D) or a 2000 Ravens caliber defense.

Now, which do you think is harder to assemble?

[chiefzilla1501]

The Vikings are going to be another classic example of wasted talent and opportunity because of the lack of a QB.

That's their fault for plugging in a veteran to win now in one season.

I do agree that QB is the absolute #1 priority for any team. You have to keep searching, and the Vikings have lazily rested their franchise on Tavarris Jackson. But you have to prepared in case you don't have a HOF-bound QB, which are extremely, extremely hard to find.

Even the Pats, with Brady at the helm, were constantly drafting QBs every year.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

People forget that the 1986 Bears D was better than the '85 Bears D, but they flamed out.

People forget how unbelievable the Eagles D of the early 90s was

Those Ravens defenses and Bucs defenses only won one Super Bowl.

Having a great QB is like having one punch knockout power--you're never out of any fight, or any game.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Looking back at the playoffs this year:

There were 11 games played.

In every game but 2, the QB that played better won.

The Baltimore-NE game was a wash b/c Brady played poorly and Flacco did nothing
Rivers outplayed Sanchez in the Divisional round game.

Other than that, in every game that was played, the QB that played better won.

Romo outplayed McNabb
Warner outplayed Rodgers
Favre outplayed Romo
Brees outplayed Warner
Brees outplayed Favre

Sanchez outplayed Palmer
Manning outplayed Flacco
Manning outplayed Sanchez

Brees outplayed Manning.

[milkman]

milkman, I think that's a bit of a tall order. So basically, you're saying you have to find Big Ben, Brady, Brees, Warner or Peyton Manning. All of those guys are probably heading to the HOF. Yes, you have to continually search for that HOF QB, but you have to really be prepared just in case you're one of the 80% of teams that don't. I look at the Jets and the Vikings as two teams that had an interesting approach and both of them were actually very close to making the Super Bowl. They built with a defense and a power running game. And then they plopped in a QB.

I still believe that there's a strong argument to be made that you build your team around a defense and an electric running game, all the while searching intently for your franchise QB. If you can find that franchise QB, then yes, you can do what the Patriots did several years ago and start stacking some elite WRs on your roster to finish the puzzle.

I didn't say you can't win a SB without an elite QB.

But if you want to seriuosly compete at a championship level on a yearly basis, you need an elite QB.

The Ravens and Bucs both won a SB with marginal QB play, but neither ever really competed annually for the prize.

Meanwhile, even though the Colts have only won one SB as well, you never really feel they are out of the running because of Manning.

The Steelers will be considered real contenders with Roethlisberger.

The Chargers will be considered contenders with Rivers.
The Saints with Brees.

Give me a top ten defense and a top five running game, and I'll show you a team that can play it's way into the playoffs and that might battle it's way to SB once in ten years.

Give me a top 10 defense and a franchise QB, and I'll show you an annual SB contender.

[chiefzilla1501]

zilla,

I think you can win a SB if you have a decent defense and a non-****tard coach with the following QBs:

Manning
Brees
Brady
Roethlisberger
Rodgers
Rivers

That's 1/5 of the league. I also think that Stafford, Sanchez and Ryan will be on that list in another 3 years. I'd give an outside shot to Flacco and Freeman.

That's over 1/3 of the starting QBs in the league. Even if you hate Sanchez, Flacco, and Freeman, it's still 1/4.



Now, if you want to go to war with Matt Cassel as your QB, and you expect to win the SB, you're going to need a set of skill position players like the '99 Rams (with a top 5 D) or a 2000 Ravens caliber defense.

Now, which do you think is harder to assemble?

Now I think you're being revisionist. The fact is, we're basing our discussion that "offense wins championships" based on a recent string of elite, HOF worthy QBs who have made the Super Bowl. Outside of those 5 HOF QBs, you have the Giants, Bears, Seahawks, Eagles, and Panthers, all of whom had outstanding defenses heading into the Super Bowl.

It's a hell of a lot harder to find a HOF QB than it is to build a top-rated defense. And building a top-rated defense does NOT limit your ability to find a franchise QB. That's the main point. They're not mutually exclusive. I'm suggesting that the Chiefs build around their defense right now and continue to search for their franchise guy. If they find a guy that they think can carry the team on his shoulders, then fine, bring in some top-level receivers. And no, I disagree--once you build a really good defense as a base/foundation, it's not hard to maintain that defense. Look at the Steelers, Ravens, Eagles, etc... they've had a consistently good defense for years.

Build around your defense. Continue to search for your franchise QB. I do NOT want to build this team to be the Saints, Colts, or Cardinals. If you had anything short of a HOF QB, none of those teams come even CLOSE to the Super Bowl.

[DeezNutz]

That's their fault for plugging in a veteran to win now in one season.

I do agree that QB is the absolute #1 priority for any team. You have to keep searching, and the Vikings have lazily rested their franchise on Tavarris Jackson. But you have to prepared in case you don't have a HOF-bound QB, which are extremely, extremely hard to find.

Even the Pats, with Brady at the helm, were constantly drafting QBs every year.

Which is one of the biggest reasons why I was looking forward to the Pioli hire.

Admittedly, though, I didn't expect his first major move to be for someone else's backup. We haven't seen this before.

[chiefzilla1501]

I didn't say you can't win a SB without an elite QB.

But if you want to seriuosly compete at a championship level on a yearly basis, you need an elite QB.

The Ravens and Bucs both won a SB without marginal QB play, but neither ever really competed annually for the prize.

Meanwhile, even though the Colts have only won one SB as well, you never really feel they are out of the running because of Manning.

The Steelers will be considered real contenders as with Roethlisberger.

The Chargers will be considered contenders with Rivers.
The Saints with Brees.

Give me a top ten defense and a top five running game, and I'll show you a team that can play it's way into the playoffs and that might battle it's way to SB once in ten years.

Give me a top 10 defense and a franchise QB, and I'll show you an annual SB contender.

I 100% agree with the last point. Which is why I don't understand why people are treating them as being mutually exclusive.

Why can't you build a really good defense while in constant search of a franchise QB? Building your defense isn't going to affect your ability to bring in a franchise QB.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I 100% agree with the last point. Which is why I don't understand why people are treating them as being mutually exclusive.

Why can't you build a really good defense while in constant search of a franchise QB? Building your defense isn't going to affect your ability to bring in a franchise QB.

No one has said otherwise.

What people are worried about is the idea that we'll be set if we build a defense and give Cassel "weapons".

Even if we build the D, we've only won half the battle.

[milkman]

I 100% agree with the last point. Which is why I don't understand why people are treating them as being mutually exclusive.

Why can't you build a really good defense while in constant search of a franchise QB? Building your defense isn't going to affect your ability to bring in a franchise QB.

I think this debate got sidetracked somewhere, and I'm too lazy to find out where.

No one is saying they are mutually exclusive.

We are saying that you don't pass on potential franchise QBs because you already have invested in someone else's scrub.

[DeezNutz]

I 100% agree with the last point. Which is why I don't understand why people are treating them as being mutually exclusive.

Why can't you build a really good defense while in constant search of a franchise QB? Building your defense isn't going to affect your ability to bring in a franchise QB.

They're not mutually exclusive, except when it comes to the Chiefs.

And the Executive of the Century is in the position to likely pass on yet another top QB prospect to chase our defensive inadequacies.

The hierarchy is completely out of whack.

Fix the most important when the opportunity presents itself.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Now I think you're being revisionist. The fact is, we're basing our discussion that "offense wins championships" based on a recent string of elite, HOF worthy QBs who have made the Super Bowl. Outside of those 5 HOF QBs, you have the Giants, Bears, Seahawks, Eagles, and Panthers, all of whom had outstanding defenses heading into the Super Bowl.

It's a hell of a lot harder to find a HOF QB than it is to build a top-rated defense. And building a top-rated defense does NOT limit your ability to find a franchise QB. That's the main point. They're not mutually exclusive. I'm suggesting that the Chiefs build around their defense right now and continue to search for their franchise guy. If they find a guy that they think can carry the team on his shoulders, then fine, bring in some top-level receivers. And no, I disagree--once you build a really good defense as a base/foundation, it's not hard to maintain that defense. Look at the Steelers, Ravens, Eagles, etc... they've had a consistently good defense for years.

Build around your defense. Continue to search for your franchise QB. I do NOT want to build this team to be the Saints, Colts, or Cardinals. If you had anything short of a HOF QB, none of those teams come even CLOSE to the Super Bowl.

The Seahawks, Eagles, and Giants all had QBs who are/were very good at their position.

In fact, it was the Giants QB who led them the length of the field to beat the Pats.

I'm not being revisionist, I'm learning from history, something you seem to be completely incapable of doing.

Defenses lose championships in the modern NFL. Quarterbacks win them.

[tmax63]

I agree with most of your points but I also would point out that having a good o-line and defense also opens up the options of getting an elite qb to come in ala the Vikings and Favre or 90's Chiefs and Montana. I don't want to go that way because the window of opportunity is too small but in the same breath I don't see how anyone can accurately judge Cassell or Croyle to this point. Cassell had a good team around him and flashed in NE in his first year of starting but didn't show it here in year 2. Croyle has the tools but can't stay on the field. Both IMHO because the o-line was crap since big Will and big Willie retired. The 2nd half of last season when the line started showing improvement the Chiefs started winning a few games. Will the o-line continue to improve is the 64 million dollar question? Will MC show like he did in NE with an improved line or was it a fluke? Pioli has shown that he will trade an aging vet for picks while he still has value so I don't think the window on a franchise qb closes after this year, the Chiefs can package a pick or 3 together to move up next year if necessary. Not trying to provoke you, just not sure I can say that Cassell has had enough around him to call him a backup/clipboard pilot for the rest of his career.

[DeezNutz]

I agree with most of your points but I also would point out that having a good o-line and defense also opens up the options of getting an elite qb to come in ala the Vikings and Favre or 90's Chiefs and Montana. I don't want to go that way because the window of opportunity is too small but in the same breath I don't see how anyone can accurately judge Cassell or Croyle to this point. Cassell had a good team around him and flashed in NE in his first year of starting but didn't show it here in year 2. Croyle has the tools but can't stay on the field. Both IMHO because the o-line was crap since big Will and big Willie retired. The 2nd half of last season when the line started showing improvement the Chiefs started winning a few games. Will the o-line continue to improve is the 64 million dollar question? Will MC show like he did in NE with an improved line or was it a fluke? Pioli has shown that he will trade an aging vet for picks while he still has value so I don't think the window on a franchise qb closes after this year, the Chiefs can package a pick or 3 together to move up next year if necessary. Not trying to provoke you, just not sure I can say that Cassell has had enough around him to call him a backup/clipboard pilot for the rest of his career.

Sigh.

If the goal is to be the '09 Vikings or the '93 Chiefs, I yield.

And now we can't judge Cassel OR Croyle because of the o-line. Good grief. Was it the o-lineman's fault that Croyle tripped over him, essentially ending his rookie season?

We have to start telling these mother****ers not to stand in the wrong places.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I agree with most of your points but I also would point out that having a good o-line and defense also opens up the options of getting an elite qb to come in ala the Vikings and Favre or 90's Chiefs and Montana. I don't want to go that way because the window of opportunity is too small but in the same breath I don't see how anyone can accurately judge Cassell or Croyle to this point. Cassell had a good team around him and flashed in NE in his first year of starting but didn't show it here in year 2. Croyle has the tools but can't stay on the field. Both IMHO because the o-line was crap since big Will and big Willie retired. The 2nd half of last season when the line started showing improvement the Chiefs started winning a few games. Will the o-line continue to improve is the 64 million dollar question? Will MC show like he did in NE with an improved line or was it a fluke? Pioli has shown that he will trade an aging vet for picks while he still has value so I don't think the window on a franchise qb closes after this year, the Chiefs can package a pick or 3 together to move up next year if necessary. Not trying to provoke you, just not sure I can say that Cassell has had enough around him to call him a backup/clipboard pilot for the rest of his career.

You just proved our point. You don't even look at the QB as someone who should be drafted and developed by this franchise, rather a vet who should be brought in, a la Favre or Montana

That's the epitome of Carl Peterson's effect on this fanbase.

This team will never be successful until it drafts and develops its own franchise QB.

[chiefzilla1501]

The Seahawks, Eagles, and Giants all had QBs who are/were very good at their position.

In fact, it was the Giants QB who led them the length of the field to beat the Pats.

I'm not being revisionist, I'm learning from history, something you seem to be completely incapable of doing.

Defenses lose championships in the modern NFL. Quarterbacks win them.

That were "good" at their position. There is a major gap between good and Brees/Big Ben/Brady/Manning/Warner level. Huge.

And if you have a very good franchise QB who isn't elite, you better back him up with something really good. And 9 times out of 10, that means you have to build as good of a defense as you can build to support that QB.

[DeezNutz]

That were "good" at their position. There is a major gap between good and Brees/Big Ben/Brady/Manning/Warner level. Huge.

And if you have a very good franchise QB who isn't elite, you better back him up with something really good. And 9 times out of 10, that means you have to build as good of a defense as you can build to support that QB.

Not on this board.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Matt Hasselbeck and Donovan McNabb are both multiple PB QBs. Calling them merely "good" in their primes is disingenuous at best.

[chiefzilla1501]

Not on this board.

What makes Big Ben distinct from the group is that, unlike the other 4, he has never taken his team to the Super Bowl with anything short of an elite defense. So that further proves the point. Take that elite defense out of Pittsburgh, and how many Super Bowls does Big Ben even make?

I'm just hearing over and over about how the non true fan formula for success is to build the game around an electric passing game. But the fact is that the teams that consistently show the most success are those with a franchise QB AND a defense you can brag about. The exceptions tend to only be teams with HOF QBs.

[tmax63]

Actually I said it opens up this option but I didn't want to do it that way. What I said was that no qb could have performed well behind the o-line in the last 2 years until they showed some improvement the last 6-8 games.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

What makes Big Ben distinct from the group is that, unlike the other 4, he has never taken his team to the Super Bowl with anything short of an elite defense. So that further proves the point. Take that elite defense out of Pittsburgh, and how many Super Bowls does Big Ben even make?

I'm just hearing over and over about how the non true fan formula for success is to build the game around an electric passing game. But the fact is that the teams that consistently show the most success are those with a franchise QB AND a defense you can brag about. The exceptions tend to only be teams with HOF QBs.

That "elite defense" got its fucking taint handed to it in the Super Bowl, and he had to go 80 yards to save its ass.

[DeezNutz]

What makes Big Ben distinct from the group is that, unlike the other 4, he has never taken his team to the Super Bowl with anything short of an elite defense. So that further proves the point. Take that elite defense out of Pittsburgh, and how many Super Bowls does Big Ben even make?

I'm just hearing over and over about how the non true fan formula for success is to build the game around an electric passing game. But the fact is that the teams that consistently show the most success are those with a franchise QB AND a defense you can brag about. The exceptions tend to only be teams with HOF QBs.

I know. In crunch time, Big Ben routinely jumps on the back of that defense and coasts to victory.

And he's yet another example of the need to build a dominant offensive line.

[chiefzilla1501]

Matt Hasselbeck and Donovan McNabb are both multiple PB QBs. Calling them merely "good" in their primes is disingenuous at best.

Putting them anywhere near the level of the HOF QBs I listed is also disingenuous.

If I have Peyton Manning or Brady or Big Ben, I feel like they can carry my team to the Super Bowl in any given year. If I have McNabb, I don't feel even CLOSE to that same way. Same with Hasselbeck, especially in absence of an elite running game.

[tmax63]

I also said I didn't think that trading up to get a high draft pick qb was out of the question next year either.

[DeezNutz]

Actually I said it opens up this option but I didn't want to do it that way. What I said was that no qb could have performed well behind the o-line in the last 2 years until they showed some improvement the last 6-8 games.

This is such bullshit.

What was one major reason why the o-line "improved" in the second half? What changed?

Carry that same philosophy over to the QB position, with exponentially more impact.

[DeezNutz]

McNabb in his prime is one of the most underrated QBs in recent memory.

Hell, if he suited up next year for the Chiefs, it would be laughable how poorly Cassel would look in contrast.

[chiefzilla1501]

That "elite defense" got its ****ing taint handed to it in the Super Bowl, and he had to go 80 yards to save its ass.

But you're disregarding the point that the team doesn't get to where it got without that defense. The Giants don't come even close to the Super Bowl if they didn't have a dominant defensive line. And by the way, that defense also all game was the first team all season long to make a superhuman offense look human.

Yes, a QB ultimately won that game. But don't pretend for a second that the defense didn't have a huge role in getting them the ring.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Putting them anywhere near the level of the HOF QBs I listed is also disingenuous.

If I have Peyton Manning or Brady or Big Ben, I feel like they can carry my team to the Super Bowl in any given year. If I have McNabb, I don't feel even CLOSE to that same way. Same with Hasselbeck, especially in absence of an elite running game.

McNabb took that team to 5 championship games. Yes, a good deal of that was due to JJ's D, but they were never as good as they were disruptive, and he never had much of a running game.

I'm not putting them on the same tier as those guys, but even if you look at them as top 8 QBs (which they undoubtedly were), they get you much farther than a top 8 D, good running game and a game manager QB.

(You're also overrating that Seahawks D, FWIW).

[tmax63]

Perhaps it was trying a bunch of different retread losers and cast-offs until they got a couple that could almost play. Imagine what they could do if you got some actual talent up there.

[DeezNutz]

But you're disregarding the point that the team doesn't get to where it got without that defense. The Giants don't come even close to the Super Bowl if they didn't have a dominant defensive line. And by the way, that defense also all game was the first team all season long to make a superhuman offense look human.

Yes, a QB ultimately won that game. But don't pretend for a second that the defense didn't have a huge role in getting them the ring.

Of course. It's still a team game.

But without the elite QB, that defense doesn't have a ring, which has been the point of the entire discussion.

To win a SB, you need to be good-very good everywhere, and elite in some areas. I'll start with QB for the latter.

[milkman]

I agree with most of your points but I also would point out that having a good o-line and defense also opens up the options of getting an elite qb to come in ala the Vikings and Favre or 90's Chiefs and Montana. I don't want to go that way because the window of opportunity is too small but in the same breath I don't see how anyone can accurately judge Cassell or Croyle to this point. Cassell had a good team around him and flashed in NE in his first year of starting but didn't show it here in year 2. Croyle has the tools but can't stay on the field. Both IMHO because the o-line was crap since big Will and big Willie retired. The 2nd half of last season when the line started showing improvement the Chiefs started winning a few games. Will the o-line continue to improve is the 64 million dollar question? Will MC show like he did in NE with an improved line or was it a fluke? Pioli has shown that he will trade an aging vet for picks while he still has value so I don't think the window on a franchise qb closes after this year, the Chiefs can package a pick or 3 together to move up next year if necessary. Not trying to provoke you, just not sure I can say that Cassell has had enough around him to call him a backup/clipboard pilot for the rest of his career.

You build a young team with championship calibre talent, then plug in an aging QB in an attempt to win that championship and you end up like the Chiefs, with a team that had the talent to have that window of opportunity that should have been open for 6-8 years, or longer only open for two years.

Bringing in Montana without a contingency plan in place for his departure was a stupid decision.

If Favre retires now, or he comes back for another year and they still fail to win the SB, then bringing him in, like bringing Montana in with the Chiefs, will be a failed plan.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

But you're disregarding the point that the team doesn't get to where it got without that defense. The Giants don't come even close to the Super Bowl if they didn't have a dominant defensive line. And by the way, that defense also all game was the first team all season long to make a superhuman offense look human.

Yes, a QB ultimately won that game. But don't pretend for a second that the defense didn't have a huge role in getting them the ring.

I never said it didn't.

But Pittsburgh had those same Ds (and in some cases, better Ds) in the 90s and the best running game in football.

What did it get them?

[chiefzilla1501]

Of course. It's still a team game.

But without the elite QB, that defense doesn't have a ring, which has been the point of the entire discussion.

To win a SB, you need to be good-very good everywhere, and elite in some areas. I'll start with QB for the latter.

And my point is that bringing in an elite QB is easier said than done. Some teams get lucky and find a HOF QB. If you have a HOF, elite QB, you can win largely based on an electric passing game and an average supporting cast. If you have a franchise, non-HOF QB, you have to HAVE TO either build a dominant running game (as Seattle did) or a dominant defense (as New York did).

Again, without the dominant defense, New England scores 50 points in a blowout. They were that good.

Look, I'm not arguing that the QB isn't the absolute, positive #1 priority. I'm just trying to understand why people are devaluing the vital importance of a defense based on a few teams that are getting to the Super Bowl behind a HOF QB. That's reckless to build around the hopes for a HOF QB. You look for a franchise QB, hope he can be HOF-level, and build around defense as you search. Because if he's not HOF-level, you BETTER have a defense that can win some games for you.

[milkman]

And my point is that bringing in an elite QB is easier said than done. Some teams get lucky and find a HOF QB. If you have a HOF, elite QB, you can win largely based on an electric passing game and an average supporting cast. If you have a franchise, non-HOF QB, you have to HAVE TO either build a dominant running game (as Seattle did) or a dominant defense (as New York did).

Again, without the dominant defense, New England scores 50 points in a blowout. They were that good.

Look, I'm not arguing that the QB isn't the absolute, positive #1 priority. I'm just trying to understand why people are devaluing the vital importance of a defense based on a few teams that are getting to the Super Bowl behind a HOF QB. That's reckless to build around the hopes for a HOF QB. You look for a franchise QB, hope he can be HOF-level, and build around defense as you search. Because if he's not HOF-level, you BETTER have a defense that can win some games for you.

I don't understand what the problem is here.

Not a single person is suggesting that we shouldn't attempt to build the best possible team we can, both on defense and offense.

What we are suggesting is that the Chiefs have got to stop avoiding the QB position in the draft like it's a fucking plague.

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't understand what the problem is here.

Not a single person is suggesting that we shouldn't attempt to build the best possible team we can, both on defense and offense.

What we are suggesting is that the Chiefs have got to stop avoiding the QB position in the draft like it's a ****ing plague.

That's fine. But a lot of people are trying to skew it in the direction of building around a dominant passing game that has a franchise QB and great receivers off the edge, and that defense plays more of a supporting role to that primary mission. I've never heard any urgency on anyone in this thread to build a top 5-10 defense that can create turnovers. . It completely discounts the fact that guys like Eli and Big Ben, while awesome QBs, likely wouldn't get to the Super Bowl without an elite defense.

I'm suggesting if you don't have a HOF QB, you're usually not getting to the Super Bowl if you don't have a top 5-10 defense. Usually. People here are treating it as a very distant second. I'm suggesting it's a very close second.

[milkman]

That's fine. But a lot of people are trying to skew it in the direction of building around a dominant passing game that has a franchise QB and great receivers off the edge, and that defense plays more of a supporting role to that primary mission. I've never heard any urgency on anyone in this thread to build a top 5-10 defense that can create turnovers. . It completely discounts the fact that guys like Eli and Big Ben, while awesome QBs, likely wouldn't get to the Super Bowl without an elite defense.

I'm suggesting if you don't have a HOF QB, you're usually not getting to the Super Bowl if you don't have a top 5-10 defense. Usually. People here are treating it as a very distant second. I'm suggesting it's a very close second.

I think the problem is that "drafturbators" are trying to impress "true fan" with the importance of the QB position in today's NFL.

But at the same tme, you see "drafturbators" upset with the last draft because it went against the value of the talent on that board while forcing us to look at positions this year taking away from the value of the talent on this year's board, which is on defense.

Essentially we are pissed because we felt the draft, handled differently, could have built a solid O-Line and a gotten the talent to build a top 10 defense.

Because we failed to adddress the value, we still have as many, if not more, holes to fill going into this draft.

Oh....and we're still talking about the need to draft a franchise potential QB.

[DeezNutz]

I'd like to see the reaction of the drafterbators if the team selected Clausen.

Many would be surprised, I believe.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think the problem is that "drafturbators" are trying to impress "true fan" with the importance of the QB position in today's NFL.

But at the same tme, you see "drafturbators" upset with the last draft because it went against the value of the talent on that board while forcing us to look at positions this year taking away from the value of the talent on this year's board, which is on defense.

Essentially we are pissed because we felt the draft, handled differently, could have built a solid O-Line and a gotten the talent to build a top 10 defense.

Because we failed to adddress the value, we still have as many, if not more, holes to fill going into this draft.

Oh....and we're still talking about the need to draft a franchise potential QB.

We'll see. As you know, I mostly did not like the last draft and I've also not been shy about saying that I'm not upset we didn't take Sanchez. Still not that upset, to be honest.

I would be pretty happy if we drafted Claussen, though I do hope it's for the right reasons and not because of Weis-tunnelvision/nepotism. I still to this day think his upside is a lot higher than Sanchez's. And I agree with the draftubators that no matter what, o-line isn't nearly as top priority as many make it to be.

[WilliamTheIrish]

That "True Fan Syndrome" post is one of the funniest things ever posted on this board.

[Reaper16]

No, Carl would have drafted a guard in the first round and project him into the left tackle spot. Carl drafts Fujita in the fifth round, watches him lead the team in tackles for two straight seasons, and then trades him for a sixth round pick. Carl is flipping through channels, happens upon the Senior Bowl and is impressed by a UNC defensive tackle that happened to play right next to Julius Peppers and thinks that he's gonna be super good. Carl is a guy that passes on low position value guy Troy Polamalu and drafts big time playmaker deluxe Larry Johnson. Carl is a guy that picks Eddie Freeman, Junior Siavi and Kawika Mitchell in the second round based on huge "boom/bust" potential. Carl brought in big name free agents that were the missing piece to the Chiefs post season glories.

In other words, Carl was the wet dream GM of drafturbators everywhere.

A true fan never liked Carl. Carl perverted and abused the entire concept of what a true fan is - a person who remains positive about the team and hopes that they will get to the point where they can contend for a NFL championship through solid contributing players. Teams like the Colts. The Patriots. The teams Carl never wanted to build.

That is total horseshit. All of it.

[Saccopoo]

That is total horseshit. All of it.

Sure it is, because you don't want to accept the fact that Carl placated the Drafturbaturs nearly every single draft. That Carl was your wet dream is the most horrific thing that you can think of...

But the fact remains that other than the franchise QB, Carl picked a drafturbators draft damn near every time.

Carl = drafturbators.

+ 1.

[Reaper16]

Sure it is, because you don't want to accept the fact that Carl placated the Drafturbaturs nearly every single draft. That Carl was your wet dream is the most horrific thing that you can think of...

But the fact remains that other than the franchise QB, Carl picked a drafturbators draft damn near every time.

Carl = drafturbators.

+ 1.
Maybe you are correct. While the term "drafturbators" was conceived by Hootie to mock people he disagreed with perhaps the word is used differently now and no long applies to the people that it used to apply to. That is the only explanation because to say that a Peterson draft placated the likes of Mecca, Hamas, etc "damn near every time" is decidedly not factual.

[kcbubb]

The Seahawks, Eagles, and Giants all had QBs who are/were very good at their position.

In fact, it was the Giants QB who led them the length of the field to beat the Pats.

I'm not being revisionist, I'm learning from history, something you seem to be completely incapable of doing.

Defenses lose championships in the modern NFL. Quarterbacks win them.

So, how did Eli lead his team to win??? By him throwing the ball up for grabs and the receiver catching it against his head??? I get your point but that is a terrible example.

Also, the onside kick and Porter's interception for a touchdown were the most important plays for the saints in this past superbowl. Really Brees didn't take many chances all game. I don't think he went deep all game. You might say that Brees managed the game.

I agree with the point that you have to have a great QB to compete every year, but not so much with the examples.