A trade up scenario with Detroit

[Coogs]

Based off of this article from the Detroit Free Press...

http://www.freep.com/article/20100323/SPORTS01/100323045/1049/sports01/Mayhew-expects-Lions-to-have-chance-to-trade-back

... could this team be us?

#5 and Dorsey to the Lions.
#2 and #35 to the Chiefs.

Lions get a much needed DT that fits their system better than Dorsey fits ours, and they get their LT at #5 to protect Stafford.

Chiefs get Suh at #2 who is a better fit for our defensive system, and picks #35, #36, and #50 in round two.

[Tribal Warfare]

I just got wood, because if KC is the team then it's a play for Clausen

[tyton75]

it would be interesting, but I can't imagine us moving up in the draft when we are already at 5

[Tribal Warfare]

it would be interesting, but I can't imagine us moving up in the draft when we are already at 5

It all depends if Clausen is passed up by the Rams and how much influence Weis has.

[FD]

I just got wood, because if KC is the team then it's a play for Clausen

If Dorsey is part of the deal, though, that indicates they want Suh.

[Tribal Warfare]

If Dorsey is part of the deal, though, that indicates they want Suh.

No, it means they'll draft a five technique somewhere else in the draft while not burning the 2nd overall pick

[milkman]

If Dorsey is part of the deal, though, that indicates they want Suh.

Don't confuse Tribal with logic.

If you introduce logic with with obsessive idiocy, his head might actually explode.

[Archie Bunker]

If Clausen was the target wouldn't we be trading with Tampa instead of trying to get in front of them?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

If Clausen was the target wouldn't we be trading with Tampa instead of trying to get in front of them?
Posted via Mobile Device

Gunther,must have a hardcore mancrush on Dorsey and could be really pushing to obtain Glenn if this is the situation between the unknown team.

[doomy3]

Don't confuse Tribal with logic.

If you introduce logic with with obsessive idiocy, his head might actually explode.

This.

[spanky 52]

I believe if the Chiefs want Claussen they stay right where their at. If Washington wants a QB, it's Bradford. Otherwise they are taking a LT. They have to come out of this draft with a LT.

[milkman]

If Clausen was the target wouldn't we be trading with Tampa instead of trying to get in front of them?
Posted via Mobile Device

Please stop.

TW is like the opposite of that space probe created by "The Kirk" in that Star Trek episode.

Self destruction is emminent.

[Coogs]

Gunther,must have a hardcore mancrush on Dorsey and could be really pushing to obtain Glenn if this is the situation between the unknown team.

This is what I am thinking. Plus, the Lions want/need a LT to protect Stafford.

We are in the process of "building" out team in Pioli's vision. And while Dorsey was our best D-lineman last year, he was still a square peg in a round hole type of fit. Suh is not that at all. A D-line of Suh, Cody, and Jackson could be exactly what Pioli is looking for, and this trade scenario would come pretty close to allowing that to happen depennding on where Cody winds up being projected out in things.

[KCDC]

Is Suh really that much of a better fit? If not, we burn a #2 pick to replace Dorsey (which is a wash or slight improvement) and then don't pick until #35 to improve at another position. I can't say I like it.

I'd rather trade down to get an extra pick; or, failing that, keep our pick and keep Dorsey. We are better off with Berry than swapping Suh for Dorsey, and then taking someone at #35.

[Tribal Warfare]

Is Suh really that much of a better fit? If not, we burn a #2 pick to replace Dorsey (which is a wash or slight improvement) and then don't pick until #35 to improve at another position. I can't say I like it.

I'd rather trade down to get an extra pick; or, failing that, keep our pick and keep Dorsey. We are better off with Berry than swapping Suh for Dorsey, and then taking someone at #35.

I'm not suggesting a Suh for Dorsey trade scenario. IMO, if this goes down it's Weis' influence to get Clausen. KC then will draft a mid round 5 technique DE . This due to the value and round grade for the specified prospect if they fit,their isn't a dropoff, and they can grow in the DE spot without limitation. There is the added fact that KC is afraid that the Redskins will snatch Clausen before the 5th pick overall.

[Coogs]

Is Suh really that much of a better fit? If not, we burn a #2 pick to replace Dorsey (which is a wash or slight improvement) and then don't pick until #35 to improve at another position. I can't say I like it.

I'd rather trade down to get an extra pick; or, failing that, keep our pick and keep Dorsey. We are better off with Berry than swapping Suh for Dorsey, and then taking someone at #35.

That is for the powers that be to decide. They forced the 3-4 last season, and really need to get the right players to make it work.

I'm not even sure if we are the team they were talking about. But Suh, Cody, Jackson would be a great front 3 for the system they want to run.

[SAUTO]

I'm not suggesting a Suh for Dorsey trade scenario. IMO, if this goes down it's Weis' influence to get Clausen. KC then will draft a mid round 5 technique DE . This due to the value and round grade for the specified prospect if they fit,their isn't a dropoff, andthey can grow in the DE spot without limitation.

huh? what are you saying here? grow without limitations? wha??? are you trying to say that a mid round de isnt a dropoff from a boy named sue?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

huh? what are you saying here? grow without limitations? wha??? are you trying to say that a mid round de isnt a dropoff from a boy named sue?
Posted via Mobile Device

Dorsey is limited and is wasted in the 3-4 unfortunately. The idea was getting a better prospect that do fit the scheme in the later rounds. There are more rounds than the 1st and 2nd round to get potential players after all.

[Coogs]

Dorsey is limited and is wasted in the 3-4 unfortunately. The idea was getting a better prospect that do fit the scheme in the later rounds. There are more rounds than the 1st and 2nd round to get potential players after all.

Very true. But Suh is being talked about as one of the best to come along in a long damn time.

[Tribal Warfare]

Very true. But Suh is being talked about as one of the best to come along in a long damn time.

he'd be good( better than Dorsey) in a 3-4, but he'll be great in a 4-3. KC could get a good 3-4 DE in the later rounds.

[SAUTO]

Dorsey is limited and is wasted in the 3-4 unfortunately. The idea was getting a better prospect that do fit the scheme in the later rounds. There are more rounds than the 1st and 2nd round to get potential players after all.

youve got to be kidding me. theres more than two rounds??? thanks for such groundbreaking insight.
by all accounts dorsey really started to come on later in the year. why would they trade up for a guy, clausen, who most likely would be there when we pick? suh will most likely be gone at five
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

why would they trade up for a guy, clausen, who most likely would be there when we pick?

Mike Shanahan and the Redskins could select him which others have said multiple times.

[SAUTO]

Mike Shanahan and the Redskins could select him which others have said multiple times.

then why go so high? tampa,like said elsewhere,would make more sense.

all of this IMO is a moot point. i just cant see us trading UP from five....
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

then why go so high? tampa,like said elsewhere,would make more sense.

all of this IMO is a moot point. i just cant see us trading UP from five....
Posted via Mobile Device



Familiarity as I refer to how many draftniks like to connect Ferentz with Pioli. Their is a connection between Dorsey and Gunther which is why this possibility is being discussed.

[SAUTO]

Familiarity as I refer to how many draftniks like to connect Ferentz with Pioli. Their is a connection between Dorsey and Gunther which is why this possibility is being discussed.

how many ferentz players has pioli drafted? look it up. then file the ferentz connection with this trade up scenario
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

how many ferentz players has pioli drafted? look it up. then file the ferentz connection with this trade up scenario
Posted via Mobile Device


It's a good ole boy connection they both worked for the Browns, and is why the Bulaga talk is so rampant. If Gunther wasn't involved with this possibility noway this Lions trade would be thought of to occur.

[Coogs]

It's a good ole boy connection they both worked for the Browns, and is why the Bulaga talk is so rampant. If Gunther wasn't involved with this possibility noway this Lions trade would be thought of to occur.

Again, I don't even know if it is us talking to the Lions. The article just said there is a team wanting to trade up with the Lions. We would make as much sense as anyone. Possibly more sense.

Assuming the Rams take Bradford...

Would it make sense for Tampa to trade up 1 spot with both Suh and McCoy still there? Not really.
would it make sense for the Skins to trade up 2 spots with neither the Lions or Bucs needing a QB, and most likely Tampa going DT? They still have Clausen and OT opportunities available at #4. So not really the Skins either.
Who beneath us would want to vault all the way to #2 for Suh, when he is the logical choice for that big of move to the #2 spot?
Unless of course, this all depends if Suh goes to the Rams, and Bradford is still there at #2. But that still begs the question of moving all the way to #2 when neither the Lions or Bucs are needing a QB.

[KCDC]

I'm not suggesting a Suh for Dorsey trade scenario. IMO, if this goes down it's Weis' influence to get Clausen. KC then will draft a mid round 5 technique DE . This due to the value and round grade for the specified prospect if they fit,their isn't a dropoff, and they can grow in the DE spot without limitation. There is the added fact that KC is afraid that the Redskins will snatch Clausen before the 5th pick overall.

I like Clausen too, but would not trade up to get him. I think the Redkins pass on him. Even if they do, I doubt Pioli will pick him (unless Weis is frothing at the mouth to get him). So, let's plan on taking Berry, or reaching for a decent OL or Dan Williams at NT.

[Tribal Warfare]

I like Clausen too, but would not trade up to get him. I think the Redkins pass on him. Even if they do, I doubt Pioli will pick him (unless Weis is frothing at the mouth to get him). So, let's plan on taking Berry, or reaching for a decent OL or Dan Williams at NT.

from what I've been "hearing" Weis is really pimping Clausen to be the pick because he doesn't think Cassel is a franchise QB. In other words he wants his guy.

[Mr. Laz]

just stay right were we are at and draft Clausen or Berry .... imo we will have a shot at one or the other.

then use Dorsey to trade back up into round 1 to grab Dan Williams

example: Dorsey and our (4th??) to Jacksonville for the #10th pick

(fyi i don't know if a 4th is enough or not ... just an example of the possibility)

1a - S Eric Berry
1b - NT Dan williams
2a - OLB Jerry Hughes
2b - WR Arrelious Benn
3 - G/OT Vladimir Ducasse
5 - WR/KR Jordan Shipley
5 - ILB Pat Angerer
5 - RB LeGarrette Blount

Alex Magee would be penciled in to replace Dorsey. Ron Edwards could also be used at RDE if Dan Williams wins the starting job.

[Ralphy Boy]

If Dorsey is part of the deal, though, that indicates they want Suh.

Agreed. I don't see the Rams or us wanting Clausen and I don't see us trading up unless it is to get Suh. It just wouldn't make any sense to move into that spot for any other reason.

With that said, if we could get Suh and the #34, to use on another position in this deep of a draft, I'd be all for it.

[Coogs]

Agreed. I don't see the Rams or us wanting Clausen and I don't see us trading up unless it is to get Suh. It just wouldn't make any sense to move into that spot for any other reason.

With that said, if we could get Suh and the #34, to use on another position in this deep of a draft, I'd be all for it.

My thoughts as well. Even it it another 5 technique draft pick spent, this is only Pioli's 2nd year. For this defense to become Steeler/Raven type, those front 3 are going to have to be the driving force. Suh, Cody, Jackson (I'm giving him the benifit of the doubt yet, as I would Suh and Cody as rookies) could turn into one hell of a front 3 that would allow this entire defensive scheme become what it needs to be.

[bowener]

Based off of this article from the Detroit Free Press...

http://www.freep.com/article/20100323/SPORTS01/100323045/1049/sports01/Mayhew-expects-Lions-to-have-chance-to-trade-back

... could this team be us?

#5 and Dorsey to the Lions.
#2 and #35 to the Chiefs.

Lions get a much needed DT that fits their system better than Dorsey fits ours, and they get their LT at #5 to protect Stafford.

Chiefs get Suh at #2 who is a better fit for our defensive system, and picks #35, #36, and #50 in round two.

If we took Suh as a DE, I would be pissed. If we are going to pay $65+ million to a player, it had better not be another ****ing DL 3 years in a row, 2 years in a row for a ****ing 3-4 DE. We better take the best QB at #2, otherwise stay at 5 and take Berry. Though adding #34 would be nice too...

edit:

And Mayhew saying this shit in an interview, it could just be empty propaganda. Maybe if they say this publicly, a team like CLE or KC or who ever, may have a player they would like in the top 3 that most likely won't make it to them at their spot. By saying this it might make a team want to inquire about the #2 spot so that some other (non existent) team wont trade up and take their guy. Maybe this is a tactic to scare TB into trading up 1 spot to get Suh (if they like him a lot more than McCoy)?

[notorious]

Very true. But Suh is being talked about as one of the best to come along in a long damn time.

Same thing was said about Dorsey.


Why did we switch to the 3-4 again?

[Mr. Laz]

Same thing was said about Dorsey.


Why did we switch to the 3-4 again?
apparently you have forgotten how bad our defense line and overall defense sucked with the 4-3.

let's not act like Pioli actually gave something up with this switch.

[Ralphy Boy]

Is Suh really that much of a better fit? If not, we burn a #2 pick to replace Dorsey (which is a wash or slight improvement) and then don't pick until #35 to improve at another position. I can't say I like it.

I'd rather trade down to get an extra pick; or, failing that, keep our pick and keep Dorsey. We are better off with Berry than swapping Suh for Dorsey, and then taking someone at #35.

Yes, Suh is a much better fit.

then why go so high? tampa,like said elsewhere,would make more sense.

all of this IMO is a moot point. i just cant see us trading UP from five....
Posted via Mobile Device

Agree on both points. Tampa may not have a connection to Dorsey, but the same trade scenario could be posed of them if Detroit were to pass on Suh.

just stay right were we are at and draft Clausen or Berry .... imo we will have a shot at one or the other.

then us Dorsey to trade back up into round 1 to grab Dan Williams

example: Dorsey and our (4th??) to Jacksonville for the #10th pick

(fyi i don't know if a 4th is enough or not ... just an example of the possibility)

1a - S Eric Berry
1b - NT Dan williams
2a - OLB Jerry Hughes
2b - WR Arrelious Benn
3 - G/OT Vladimir Ducasse
5 - WR/KR Jordan Shipley
5 - ILB Pat Angerer
5 - RB LeGarrette Blount

Alex Magee would be penciled in to replace Dorsey. Ron Edwards could also be used at RDE if Dan Williams wins the starting job.




I like it but Jax needs a DE more than a DT.

The whole thing is pretty slim. Detroit's picks are worth 2600 & 560. Is Dorsey & 1700 points worth 3160 when the first pick in the draft is worth 3000?

If Detroit really wants him, why not just stay put, take Okung and trade their 2nd and a 3rd or 4th for Dorsey?

If I had to guess, I'd say it was Washington that is the trade candidate with Detroit and they want Suh.
They cut Cornelius Griffin who is 33
Phillip Daniels is 37
Renaldo Wynn is 35

On a somewhat related note: Haynesworth is due a roster bonus of $21 million in April (http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:JM5iUGhi8NcJ:www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx%3Fsport%3DNFl%26id%3D2636+haynesworth+contract+roster+bonus&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us). His original bonus last season was only $5.0 million. In other words, with him saying he doesn't want to play NT and not being happy about the switch to a 3-4 (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/albert-haynesworth/albert-haynesworth-on-the-swit.html?wprss=redskinsinsider), he may be gone before long. Granted he said he'd play it, but if they feel that they can save that money and get Suh, they may go that direction, or just have both of them.

[Ralphy Boy]

My thoughts as well. Even it it another 5 technique draft pick spent, this is only Pioli's 2nd year. For this defense to become Steeler/Raven type, those front 3 are going to have to be the driving force. Suh, Cody, Jackson (I'm giving him the benifit of the doubt yet, as I would Suh and Cody as rookies) could turn into one hell of a front 3 that would allow this entire defensive scheme become what it needs to be.

I like Cody, but I think he'd die in Haley's fat/training camp and I would be absolutely shocked if he were picked. His lack of discipline (weight gain) prior to the combine was a HUGE deal and all of the weight loss talk since hasn't made up for the fact that every coach/GM would know that he'd have a problem every year staying in shape and keeping his weight down.

Maybe him falling to a 2nd rounder, when frankly I would have thought at season's end that he would be a 15-25 range pick, is enough of a slide to justify the pick.

[Coogs]

If we took Suh as a DE, I would be pissed. If we are going to pay $65+ million to a player, it had better not be another ****ing DL 3 years in a row, 2 years in a row for a ****ing 3-4 DE. We better take the best QB at #2, otherwise stay at 5 and take Berry. Though adding #34 would be nice too...

edit:

And Mayhew saying this shit in an interview, it could just be empty propaganda. Maybe if they say this publicly, a team like CLE or KC or who ever, may have a player they would like in the top 3 that most likely won't make it to them at their spot. By saying this it might make a team want to inquire about the #2 spot so that some other (non existent) team wont trade up and take their guy. Maybe this is a tactic to scare TB into trading up 1 spot to get Suh (if they like him a lot more than McCoy)?

Last year was a reach. But if they get this thing built right, you need to get the best players available. If Suh is that guy, then I am OK with it. I really don't care where the money is spent.

Cassel bombs, then we pick high again next Spring, and there are some good QB's availabe. Unfortunately, there are good WR's too, but hey. :shrug:

[SAUTO]

Last year was a reach. But if they get this thing built right, you need to get the best players available. If Suh is that guy, then I am OK with it. I really don't care where the money is spent.

Cassel bombs, then we pick high again next Spring, and there are some good QB's availabe. Unfortunately, there are good WR's too, but hey. :shrug:

you do know that there are more rounds than one and two in the draft correct? and many great wrs come from later rounds. how many sb winners have multiple first round wrs on their rosters???
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

Drafting Suh is one of the more ridiculous suggestions on the board, as long as we stay with a 3-4.

Let's pretend that he'd be a better 3-4 DE than Dorsey, which is debatable...he'd still never live up to the draft position, just like Tyson Jackson will never live up to where he was drafted.

Suh = pointless for the Chiefs.

[Coogs]

you do know that there are more rounds than one and two in the draft correct? and many great wrs come from later rounds. how many sb winners have multiple first round wrs on their rosters???
Posted via Mobile Device

:thumb:

I'm good with the multiple round draft philosophy.

[SAUTO]

:thumb:

I'm good with the multiple round draft philosophy.

lol should have ended that with a /cp
Posted via Mobile Device

[Coogs]

Drafting Suh is one of the more ridiculous suggestions on the board, as long as we stay with a 3-4.

Let's pretend that he'd be a better 3-4 DE than Dorsey, which is debatable...he'd still never live up to the draft position, just like Tyson Jackson will never live up to where he was drafted.

Suh = pointless for the Chiefs.

To each his own. I personally think a Suh, Cody, Jackson front three would be ideal. But that is just me.

If we are not the team in the trade up scenario that the Lions mentioned that was out there, I'm cool too. Just speculating on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

[DaneMcCloud]

To each his own. I personally think a Suh, Cody, Jackson front three would be ideal. But that is just me.

If we are not the team in the trade up scenario that the Lions mentioned that was out there, I'm cool too. Just speculating on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

I think Suh will be a rare talent in the NFL, but not in a 3-4, 5 tech position. Suh needs to go to a 4-3 team that will utilize his talents, not a 5 tech position where his primary job will be to swallow blockers while the linebackers are designed to make the plays.

This trade scenario make little sense for Detroit in a deep, rich draft. Suh to the Chiefs makes even less sense.

Furthermore, there's no way in hell I'd take Cody. He's slimming down (for money) and he's known to take plays off. He's just not the type of guy I'd take in the second round of this draft.

FWIW, a defensive line of Jackson, Dan Williams and Glenn Dorsey is much more appealing from where I sit.

Although like many others, wish they'd just go back to the 4-3.

[milkman]

I think this whole trade up scenario is a fantasy.

However, I think Suh as a 5 tech DE would be the prototype for the redefining of the position.

[DeezNutz]

Just speculating on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

:thumb:

[Coogs]

I think this whole trade up scenario is a fantasy.

However, I think Suh as a 5 tech DE would be the prototype for the redefining of the position.

Could be a fantasy. I was just dinking around the web, so I thought I would run over to the Detroit Newspaper to see what they were tossing out there. I ran across this article, which was last week sometime. Made me wonder who they were talking about, and if it was us. If it was/is us, what would we be targeting? Just kind of thinking out loud was all.

[DTLB58]

from what I've been "hearing" Weis is really pimping Clausen to be the pick because he doesn't think Cassel is a franchise QB. In other words he wants his guy.

Then I think we gotta move up, cause imo Shanny isn't rebuilding that team with Jason Campbell. He will take Clausen in my mind, no doubt.

[The Bad Guy]

I would make this trade in a second.

I think it also indicates that we are taking Suh and not Claussen.

Knowing that TW is on the Claussen bandwagon just might cause me to re-evalaute my positive feelings toward JC.

[Chiefshrink]

Could be a fantasy. I was just dinking around the web, so I thought I would run over to the Detroit Newspaper to see what they were tossing out there. I ran across this article, which was last week sometime. Made me wonder who they were talking about, and if it was us. If it was/is us, what would we be targeting? Just kind of thinking out loud was all.

I think your logic is right on that it could very well be us and we could be interested in Suh or Clausen depending if Weis is waving his "woodie" for Clausen in Pioli's face everyday. But I don't see Pioli drafting Clausen just for the fact it is a HUGE admission that bringing in Cassel was a mistake not to mention the $$$.

IMO I think Pioli is playing poker(kicking tires for now)just to see what he "might" get if he moved up. But more importantly I think he knows the "draft saavy respect" he has from around the NFL and will use this as a way to "manipulate" other teams. Either he stays put and gets the player he wants to fall by his "kicking tires" or get a team that is "antsy" to move up and we swap positions and gain an extra pick knowing we can still get our player.:thumb:

Holmgren's comment IMO was a bad "poker play". I don't believe him for one second.

[The Bad Guy]

We essentially would be swapping Dorsey for Suh and then getting an additional 2nd rounder.

[milkman]

Yeah.

Pioli really showed his draft savvy last year.

[Chiefshrink]

Yeah.

Pioli really showed his draft savvy last year.

Still remains to be seen because IMO he inherits Carl's lack of talented players, lack of draft picks(no stockpiling which is the Patriot way so that you can move at anytime whether it be the draft or trades). I get your point that Pioli traded a 2nd for Cassel and that 1/2 this board thinks Cassel is a bust but I am not one of those. TJ is still a wait and see as well.:thumb:

[Chiefshrink]

My point is just give Pioli 2yrs time to position himself for what I see as a helluva 3rd yr season with his 2nd season(this yr)being a significant improvement is all I am trying to say.

[Gadzooks]

Yeah.

Pioli really showed his draft savvy last year.

C'mon Milkman. You know Pioli's got a 30 year plan/philosophy . This thing can't be fixed ovenight.:p

[booger]

Lions squeezed Falcons into taking less for Chris Houston
Posted by Mike Florio on March 25, 2010 10:07 AM ET
Earlier this month, the Falcons shipped cornerback Chris Houston, a failed second-round pick in 2007, to the Lions.

The Falcons announced that, in exchange, they'd receive Detroit's sixth-round pick in the 2010 draft, along with a swap of fifth-round selections.

A league source tells us, however, that the ultimate price was even lower than that.

Per the source, the Lions ultimately gave up a sixth-round pick this year and a conditional seventh-round pick in 2011. The swap of fifth-round selections has been scuttled.

So what happened? According to a separate source, the Lions contacted the Falcons and said that Houston could not pass the physical imposed by Lions' doctors. We're told that the Lions also said that perhaps Houston could pass the physical if the terms of the deal were adjusted.

And so the terms of the deal were adjusted, and Houston passed the physical.

Though the Falcons could have scrapped the trade and kept Chris Houston, they opted to process, and they probably will be reluctant to do a deal with Detroit the next time an opportunity to do so arises.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/25/lions-squeezed-falcons-into-taking-less-for-chris-houston/

Detroits leadership (HC and GM) are pretty inexperienced. Schwartz may turn out to be a good coach or not but he sure seems pretty arogant. Mayhew is pretty lucky he got that job as a promotion from him working under and hired by Millen. Plus i've read a few articles myself since goonther ended up there and he is doing his usual butt in and let his voice be heard throughout the personel matters. Articles about him watching hours of tape w/ the GM etc. All he has to do is phone Carl and see how many ways CP got screwed and pass it along for them to use.

The Dorsey to Det deal has been a hot topic there ever since the season ended even before Crennel was abord that KC was unhappy with him and he didn't like the 34.

That said i'm not attached to Dorsey for the right price but i also don't see why they wouldn't want Suh. Not that big of difference IMO.

[BossChief]

I think this whole trade up scenario is a fantasy.

However, I think Suh as a 5 tech DE would be the prototype for the redefining of the position.

Echoes my thoughts exactly.

Suh started dominating halfway through his junior year when they changed him from a 1 gap defender to a 2 gap. That is what he would be doing as a 5-tec and his skill set is perfect for the scheme.

Hali rushing off Suhs shoulder would be special and he could help cover up for his liability against the run as well. That would make the job of our NT MUCH easier.

Its a fucking shame that we drafted Tyson last year, I would be all for moving up to draft Suh. The thought of a player like him on our defense is very appealing.

People that say stuff like "all he would be doing is absorbing blockers" havent seen the man beat triple teams and consistent double teams over the last year and a half as a 2 gap defender.

Reggie White immediately comes to mind watching the kid play the game and those are the rarest of rare players to find in the NFL. Dominant against the run and pass. A player that transcends his position and keys elite defenses.

Rarer than good qbs are.

The thought of us trading to select him is a pipe dream though.

I think Glenn will be someone that surprises the hell out of all of us next year, same with Tyson. I think these guys are gonna respond to Romeo Crennel in a very big way.

Honestly, we should just get used to the thought of taking Dan Williams in the first because that is whats gonna happen.

[Ralphy Boy]

I think Suh will be a rare talent in the NFL, but not in a 3-4, 5 tech position. Suh needs to go to a 4-3 team that will utilize his talents, not a 5 tech position where his primary job will be to swallow blockers while the linebackers are designed to make the plays.

This trade scenario make little sense for Detroit in a deep, rich draft. Suh to the Chiefs makes even less sense.

Furthermore, there's no way in hell I'd take Cody. He's slimming down (for money) and he's known to take plays off. He's just not the type of guy I'd take in the second round of this draft.

FWIW, a defensive line of Jackson, Dan Williams and Glenn Dorsey is much more appealing from where I sit.

Although like many others, wish they'd just go back to the 4-3.

Agree on most everything though I don't think Seymour, his 5 pro bowls and 3 Superbowl rings would agree with that statement.

I don't see us moving back to a 4-3, though I wish most teams would. The benefit that the Steelers & Pats realized when they were some of the few teams running it was the easier availability to find players to fit it. Given the reach for TJ last year, that is obviously no longer the case.

Cody scares me in a great many ways and as I mentioned earlier I think he'd die in training camp.

[doomy3]

We essentially would be swapping Dorsey for Suh and then getting an additional 2nd rounder.

No, we wouldn't. We'd be trading our #5 in the deal too.

[Tribal Warfare]

E

Reggie White immediately comes to mind watching the kid play the game and those are the rarest of rare players to find in the NFL. Dominant against the run and pass. A player that transcends his position and keys elite defenses.



Hold it there, Reggie was the greatest defensive linemen to play the game, the guy could play any position on the line for the 4-3 or 3-4.

[Ebolapox]

no, do NOT trade glenn dorsey.

[Nightfyre]

If you move up to get Suh, we better be switching to a 4-3. That invalidates the reason to trade Dorsey. That said, if you can send gunther DJ and swap firsts, or some deal to that effect, do so.

Hali - Suh - Dorsey - Tjax

Move up to grab Weatherspoon in the mid-first and you have turned this D into something that, 2 years from now, will resemble the Bears of 85. Maybe you take Dunlap in the top of the second if he's still there. Who knows, maybe that makes Hali expendable enough to trade to the Lions for a 2nd or 1st next year.

[BossChief]

Hold it there, Reggie was the greatest defensive linemen to play the game, the guy could play any position on the line for the 4-3 or 3-4.

The minister would be proud...

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[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Seahawks | Have spoken with Clausen's agent
Comment (0)
Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:20:52 -0700

Notre Dame QB Jimmy Clausen said during an interview on SIRIUS NFL Radio that his agent has spoken with the Seattle Seahawks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


49ers | Have spoken with Clausen's agent
Comment (1)
Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:20:27 -0700

Notre Dame QB Jimmy Clausen said during an interview on SIRIUS NFL Radio that his agent has spoken with the San Francisco 49ers.



Read more: http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl#ixzz0jYuvjv5N

[Coogs]

Cody scares me in a great many ways and as I mentioned earlier I think he'd die in training camp.

Didn't they bring in Ted Washington to just eat up space in the middle at one time in NE? He wasn't exactly a speedo model.

[Dave Lane]

I'm 3,000,000% behind this deal if Suh is the choice. I"d love it. Hell I'd trade Dorsey for a high 2nd if we got Suh at #5

[Dave Lane]

If you move up to get Suh, we better be switching to a 4-3. That invalidates the reason to trade Dorsey. That said, if you can send gunther DJ and swap firsts, or some deal to that effect, do so.

Hali - Suh - Dorsey - Tjax

Move up to grab Weatherspoon in the mid-first and you have turned this D into something that, 2 years from now, will resemble the Bears of 85. Maybe you take Dunlap in the top of the second if he's still there. Who knows, maybe that makes Hali expendable enough to trade to the Lions for a 2nd or 1st next year.

No Suh is perfect for a DE in the 3-4. Line would be

Suh - NT - TJ

Hali is a OLB

That line if they reach their potential is as good as the Chiefs had in the 90s.

[Dave Lane]

We essentially would be swapping Dorsey for Suh and then getting an additional 2nd rounder.

In!

[notorious]

That line if they reach their potential is as good as the Chiefs had in the 90s.

Errrr, let's not make predictions like that quite yet.......


On second thought, I am and idiot. I didn't read your post correctly.

Agreed.

[The Franchise]

:facepalm:

Yes.....let's draft yet ANOTHER 3-4 DE with a top 5 pick. That's been shown to win championships.

[Mr. Laz]

i'm not saying this deal would happen or even that we should do it but i think Suh might make a fantastic 3-4 DE.

He is a guy that can beat the guy across from him without leaving his gap. In fact, it seems like he prefers to just hand fight and leverage his guy without needing to shooting a gap.

This is what a 3-4 DE does ... maintain your gap(s) and press. Suh might be able to maintain his gap and actually collapse instead of just press.

if you can find one DE that demands a double team and a NT that eats up 2 blocks then that's when a 3-4 defense can become really dominant. imo.

[Chiefnj2]

Can they swap Tyson Jackson instead?

[Mr. Laz]

Can they swap Tyson Jackson instead?
nah ... it would be all about getting a 4-3 guy instead of a 3-4 guy.

if they wanted tyson jackson they would just take Suh.

[The Franchise]

And if we're trading anyone.......get rid of Tyson Jackson.

[Coogs]

i'm not saying this deal would happen or even that we should do it but i think Suh might make a fantastic 3-4 DE.

He is a guy that can beat the guy across from him without leaving his gap. In fact, it seems like he prefers to just hand fight and leverage his guy without needing to shooting a gap.

This is what a 3-4 DE does ... maintain your gap(s) and press. Suh might be able to maintain his gap and actually collapse instead of just press.

if you can find one DE that demands a double team and a NT that eats up 2 blocks then that's when a 3-4 defense can become really dominant. imo.

That is my thinking, and if Jackson does that on the other side as well, then the sky should be the limit.

And, if we follow the "Patriot Way" in the draft, the D-line was really where these guys built their team in the early draft years. Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork. This would not surprise me at all if the team in question is us.

[Coogs]

Can they swap Tyson Jackson instead?

The thing is, from everything I have read, Detroit is torn on where to go on their two biggest needs... DT or LT. This trade scenario gives them both. Dorsey and Okung, or Dorsey ad Bulaga.

[Chiefnj2]

The thing is, from everything I have read, Detroit is torn on where to go on their two biggest needs... DT or LT. This trade scenario gives them both. Dorsey and Okung, or Dorsey ad Bulaga.

Didn't KC try to trade Dorsey last year? I'm not sure he's getting complete bills of health.

Plus, by all accounts Suh is better than Dorsey. Is Dorsey/LOT (Bulaga/Okung/Williams) better than Suh/Campbell, Brown, Saffold ?

[Nightfyre]

We essentially would be swapping Dorsey for Suh and then getting an additional 2nd rounder.

No, you wouldn't. You'd be giving up dorsey and whomever you would otherwise draft at 5 for suh and a second. That is piss poor value, imo.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Coogs]

Didn't KC try to trade Dorsey last year? I'm not sure he's getting complete bills of health.

Plus, by all accounts Suh is better than Dorsey. Is Dorsey/LOT (Bulaga/Okung/Williams) better than Suh/Campbell, Brown, Saffold ?

I'm going to say yes, since the LT class is by and large considered to be fairly weak this year.

[Nightfyre]

To clarify:
(Suh - dorsey) + pick 34 !>= pick 5 + dorsey
Posted via Mobile Device

[Mr. Laz]

Didn't KC try to trade Dorsey last year? I'm not sure he's getting complete bills of health.

Plus, by all accounts Suh is better than Dorsey. Is Dorsey/LOT (Bulaga/Okung/Williams) better than Suh/Campbell, Brown, Saffold ?
i think Dorsey's value has gone up in the last 12 months ... substantially.

after Dorsey was drafted his stock dropped like a rock because of shitty play and doubts about his leg. Last year he showed improvement and he has shown the ability to stay healthy for 2 years now.

some people still think he would be better in a 4-3 so his stock is still higher for them.

[Coogs]

And, if the draft were to fall this way...

http://www.gbnreport.com/2010projection.html

...maybe that #34 pick and a 4th round pick or so could be moved to Baltimore for the #25 pick which would allow the choice of Dan Williams or Mount Cody to man the NT spot.

Suh, Williams, Jackson
Suh, Cody, Jackson

Either way looks pretty damn fine to me. Our LB corp should make huge strides behind that group, if not next season, in 2011 for sure.

[RedThat]

Best time to trade Dorsey is now.

Get what you can for him. Id package him in a deal and swap our first rounders with the Lions if it means the Chiefs get Suh.

I just think Suh has the potential to be a great player and imo is the best player coming out of the draft this year. I think Suh will bring a new attitude and add a new dimension to whatever team decides to pursue his services.

He is simply a beast out there, he was throwing guys around in college, I can only imagine what he is going to be like in the NFL. The guy plays with a mean streak 90% of the time. He dominates out there. He's ferocious, tenacious, aggressive and nasty. I love his game. Ive also never seen a Dlineman with such great strength, speed, and explosion as he has. but the thing that impresses me most is his hand work. His ability to disengage blockers at the point of attack is awesome. Which is probably the most important attribute for a Dlineman. But, I also like the fact that he is versatile where you can put him in as a DE in a 3-4 and a DT in a 4-3.

*Definately a guy you can build a defense around, brings a new attitude and this team desperately needs a new attitude and building block on D. the guy is a rare talent.

[BigChiefFan]

We would just be swapping Dorsey for Suh and getting a much lower pick to add to the team-this trade scenario fucks the Chiefs over.

[spanky 52]

If the draft would follow along the lines of the GBN projection, I'd do the deal and take Cam Thomas with our 50th pick. With the 34th from Detroit take OLB Hughes and with the 36th take OL Saffold. SS and ILB in the 3rd and 4th rounds, BPA at TE, WR and OL in the fifth round. That's why I like this time of year, it gives me hope.

[Coogs]

If the draft would follow along the lines of the GBN projection, I'd do the deal and take Cam Thomas with our 50th pick. With the 34th from Detroit take OLB Hughes and with the 36th take OL Saffold. SS and ILB in the 3rd and 4th rounds, BPA at TE, WR and OL in the fifth round. That's why I like this time of year, it gives me hope.



It's kind of fun to speculate... even if nothing happens and we wind up with Okung on draft day. :shrug:

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm sorry, but Detroit is not giving up the equivalent of the 8th overall pick for Glenn Dorsey.

Matt Millen wouldn't even do this deal.

[Dave Lane]

:facepalm:

Yes.....let's draft yet ANOTHER 3-4 DE with a top 5 pick. That's been shown to win championships.

Better than a safety 100 times out of 100. Given equal talent to both players.

[B_Ambuehl]

i'm not saying this deal would happen or even that we should do it but i think Suh might make a fantastic 3-4 DE.

He is a guy that can beat the guy across from him without leaving his gap. In fact, it seems like he prefers to just hand fight and leverage his guy without needing to shooting a gap.

This is what a 3-4 DE does ... maintain your gap(s) and press. Suh might be able to maintain his gap and actually collapse instead of just press.

if you can find one DE that demands a double team and a NT that eats up 2 blocks then that's when a 3-4 defense can become really dominant. imo.

That's a good observation. It's for that reason that he's really perfect for the Parcells/Belichik/Crennel 3-4, because those schemes have their players read and react. I think he would be dominant at NT in that scheme too for that same reason. He's able to dominate without being a pure penetrator. I noticed watching some tape of him that he often seemed his most dominant playing a 0 or 1 technique.

[The Franchise]

Better than a safety 100 times out of 100. Given equal talent to both players.

Have you looked at our safeties? No it's not. Drafting Suh and trading Dorsey is spinning our fucking wheels. Keeping Dorsey and drafting Berry improves our defense.

[Mr. Laz]

That's a good observation. It's for that reason that he's really perfect for the Parcells/Belichik/Crennel 3-4, because those schemes have their players read and react. I think he would be dominant at NT in that scheme too for that same reason. He's able to dominate without being a pure penetrator. I noticed watching some tape of him that he often seemed his most dominant playing a 0 or 1 technique.
if he can use leverage and hand quickness to get the Olineman off-balance like he did in college he will be a beast in the NFL and scheme/position won't matter at all.

[Coogs]

I'm sorry, but Detroit is not giving up the equivalent of the 8th overall pick for Glenn Dorsey.

Matt Millen wouldn't even do this deal.

Sometimes you have to throw the draft chart out the window. The deal could be good for both teams.

[Sully]

This sounds like a horrible idea to me.

[BossChief]

#2 pick = 2600
#5 pick = 1700
#34 pick = 560

That means that SL would be giving up 3160 in draft value points in this trade and we would be giving up 1700 + Dorsey.

If my basic algebra skills serve me correctly (1700 + a = 3160), that means that we would be getting 1460 in draft value points for Dorsey in this scenario. That is value of the #7-#8 pick overall for Dorsey and that is great value for him.

That is something I can live with in a draft like this that Detroits second rounder is the equivalent to a mid to late first in most drafts.

I think Dorsey is gonna be a solid player in this scheme, but Suh would be dominant in it. That is worth it.

If Detroit thinks that is good value for them is another question.

I think it would be a good trade for both sides.

That would give us three second rounders that are like first rounders this year, especially ones at the top of round two when there is a nightlong break after round one so that we could reassess our board and make those picks worth it.

Chants of SUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHH would light Arrowhead on fire!

[Tribal Warfare]

#2 pick = 2600
#5 pick = 1700
#34 pick = 560

That means that SL would be giving up 3160 in draft value points in this trade and we would be giving up 1700 + Dorsey.

If my basic algebra skills serve me correctly (1700 + a = 3160), that means that we would be getting 1460 in draft value points for Dorsey in this scenario. That is value of the #7-#8 pick overall for Dorsey and that is great value for him.

That is something I can live with in a draft like this that Detroits second rounder is the equivalent to a mid to late first in most drafts.

I think Dorsey is gonna be a solid player in this scheme, but Suh would be dominant in it. That is worth it.

If Detroit thinks that is good value for them is another question.

I think it would be a good trade for both sides.

That would give us three second rounders that are like first rounders this year, especially ones at the top of round two when there is a nightlong break after round one so that we could reassess our board and make those picks worth it.

Chants of SUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHH would light Arrowhead on fire!

If KC trades for the 2nd overall pick it will be for Clausen not Suh.

[BossChief]

If KC trades for the 2nd overall pick it will be for Clausen not Suh.

no

[SAUTO]

If KC trades for the 2nd overall pick it will be for Clausen not Suh.

how many times will you say the same thing? hell iirc this is the same fucking thread.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

no

Yes, because of Weis' mancrush on Clausen and if this goes down it's due to they have a backup plan in a prospect they are targeting in the later rounds.

[Mr. Laz]

i haven't seen anything to indicate that Pioli would be this aggressive btw


so far he seems to be taking a 5-year-just chill-plan

[Mr. Laz]

Yes, because of Weis' mancrush on Clausen and if this goes down it's due to they have a backup plan in a prospect they are targeting in the later rounds.
we don't even know that this Weis-Clausen thing exists let alone to the point of calling it a mancrush.

it's all speculation

[BossChief]

It would be exciting as a fan if we made a move like that because it would indicate that Charlie Weis believes that Jimmy has everything needed to win championships and that he had convinced Pioli to pull the trigger.

It would mean that we finally got OUR FUCKING FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!

I think there is about a 20% chance, realistically, that we take Clausen at 5...I think there is a 0% chance we trade up to do so.

[Mr. Laz]

we don't even know if we have to trade up for clausen.

the Redskins are the only threat for Clausen

going up to #2 is a huge move for a guy that is probably going to fall into your lap.

[Tribal Warfare]

we don't even know that this Weis-Clausen thing exists let alone to the point of calling it a mancrush.

it's all speculation

Well it's from the secret information club, and procurer of the info hasn't relayed any false news.

[Nightfyre]

Wow. You are using a chart when the vast majority of quantities are known here? So we are clear:
Chiefs trade:
Dorsey
Berry/Clausen/okung/Whoever they would draft here

For:
Suh
Some top of the second talent.

I don't see where we come out ahead in this deal. Is Suh such an upgrade to Suh that he's worth giving up Berry/Clausen for a talent at the top of the second round?

[Ralphy Boy]

If the draft would follow along the lines of the GBN projection, I'd do the deal and take Cam Thomas with our 50th pick. With the 34th from Detroit take OLB Hughes and with the 36th take OL Saffold. SS and ILB in the 3rd and 4th rounds, BPA at TE, WR and OL in the fifth round. That's why I like this time of year, it gives me hope.

I'd do this in a minute.

Or, since they have Demaryius Thomas going 33, he could very well be there at 34. If so:
34 Thomas
36 Hughes
50 Cam Thomas or Ducasse.

Regarding Demaryius & Hughes, I don't think both will actually be there. Hughes more than Thomas. If Thomas is; I think he's a steal and his injury a blessing in disguise. If Hughes is there, it would be because of a failed drug test or something and you jump all over him. Considering the upside of Thomas, I'd almost rather have Thomas and give Studebaker a chance at OLB. But Hughes and Hali rushing the passer would probably do a lot more for our team as a whole. I think there is zero chance that Hughes is there, but if he is; he has to be the pick. If not and Thomas is, grab him and don't look back. Send Thomas and Chambers deep on every play with Bowe going across the middle.

I really like Cam. Ducasse is better, at RT than Cam is NT, at this point in their careers and Thomas never really did much in college but those big NT guys are hard to find. Given the Lilja & Weigman singings, I'd rather get Cam and take my chances later at get a RT.

The rest of the way:
69 Kam Chancellor, SS
103 Clay Harbor, TE
137 Eric Olsen, C
143 Jamar Chaney or Pat Angerer, both ILB
145 Denario Alexander, WR

I know that Demaryius Thomas and Denario Alexander both have had injury issues, but the idea of the potential of having both of them is very intoxicating.

Alexander at 145 is actually high, if you go off of CBS's rankings, they have him at 235. We might be able to trade a future pick to get back into the 6th or 7th, like we did last year, and get him. Instead we could use our 145 on Sam Young, Kyle Calloway or Ciron Black.

I'd be somewhat concerned with not getting a FS, but Page should be back from injury and I would feel fairly comfortable with him starting again.

[Mr. Laz]

Well it's from the secret information club, and procurer of the info hasn't relayed any false news.
i'm part of the secret information club :fire:

but even then i think you exaggerate the weis/clausen thing


liking and wanting clausen isn't nearly that same as "mancrush"


imo Mancrush = Ditka/Ricky Williams


i wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that Weis will try to get us to draft Clausen if he's sitting there at #5. That's a far cry from the kind of cost involve when you trade up at the tippy top of the draft.

[Tribal Warfare]

i'm part of the secret information club :fire:

but even then i think you exaggerate the weis/clausen thing


liking and wanting clausen isn't nearly that same as "mancrush"


imo Mancrush = Ditka/Ricky Williams


i wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that Weis will try to get us to draft Clausen if he's sitting there at #5. That's a far cry from the kind of cost involve when you trade up at the tippy top of the draft.


This is all in theory and if this does happen it's because Weis does have a mancrush on Clausen.

[Ralphy Boy]

This is all in theory and if this does happen it's because Weis does have a mancrush on Clausen.

I'm so glad you pointed that out again. I didn't catch it the first or second time.

So to clarify your theory: you think its because Charlie loves Jimmy.

Everyone else thinks: Its to get the #1 rated player in the draft, not a guy who is very likely going to be available at 5.

[Tribal Warfare]

Everyone else thinks: Its to get the #1 rated player in the draft, not a guy who is very likely going to be available at 5.

As a refereed to before it's do to the fear that the Redskins will snag him, and there isn't much value in trading one DE for another in the 1st round.A team must have a plan did to fill the specified position later on in the draft.

[BossChief]

As a refereed to before it's do to the fear that the Redskins will snag him, and there isn't much value in trading one DE for another in the 1st round.A team must have a plan did to fill the specified position later on in the draft.

ENGLISH MUTHAFUCKA, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!

[Tribal Warfare]

ENGLISH MUTHAFUCKA, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!

What?

[BossChief]

What?

what you question is from post I write?

[Mr. Laz]

This is all in theory and if this does happen it's because Weis does have a mancrush on Clausen.
truth

[Ralphy Boy]

As a refereedto before it's do to the fear that the Redskins will snag him, and there isn't much value in trading one DE for another in the 1st round.A team must have a plan did to fill the specified position later on in the draft.

:facepalm:

I'm going to assume that you are shitfaced right now and this logic makes perfect sense in your mind. Tomorrow, you can just come back, read the underlined words and get a good laugh at yourself. For now, I'd say you should call it a night and pass out.

ENGLISH MUTHA****A, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!

:LOL:

[Tribal Warfare]

what you question is from post I write?

what?

[Tribal Warfare]

:facepalm:

I'm going to assume that you are shitfaced right now and this logic makes perfect sense in your mind. Tomorrow, you can just come back, read the underlined words and get a good laugh at yourself. For now, I'd say you should call it a night and pass out.



:LOL:

Nope, I just forgot to proofread

[CoMoChief]

Our safeties blow and are more of a defensive need than Dline besides NT, which we can get in rds 2 or 3.

Passing on Berry would be fucking dumb.

[BossChief]

what?
Do they speak English on what?

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[HemiEd]

Is Suh really that much of a better fit? If not, we burn a #2 pick to replace Dorsey (which is a wash or slight improvement) and then don't pick until #35 to improve at another position. I can't say I like it.

I'd rather trade down to get an extra pick; or, failing that, keep our pick and keep Dorsey. We are better off with Berry than swapping Suh for Dorsey, and then taking someone at #35.

That is how I see it as well.

[HemiEd]

No, we wouldn't. We'd be trading our #5 in the deal too.
Agreed, it would be like trading the 2008 #5 for a second rounder, and throwing in the two years of experience.

[Frankie]

NO TRADE UPS PLEASE!!! We can pick a fine player at 5. I don't mind a trade down for more picks, but NO TRADE UPS PLEASE!!!

[Coogs]

That is how I see it as well.

Suh is a couple of inches taller. Not sure on the wing span. He is a little faster in the 40. He had a higher vertical. And he put up 225 pounds nearly 10 more times.

[Nightfyre]

Suh is a couple of inches taller. Not sure on the wing span. He is a little faster in the 40. He had a higher vertical. And he put up 225 pounds nearly 10 more times.

But did he put up 225 more than tank? This post is fail.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Coogs]

But did he put up 225 more than tank? This post is fail.
Posted via Mobile Device

Huh?

[HemiEd]

Suh is a couple of inches taller. Not sure on the wing span. He is a little faster in the 40. He had a higher vertical. And he put up 225 pounds nearly 10 more times.

No question Suh is a beast, he may even be more of a beast, than all the hypers were saying about Dorsey two years ago. At that time, Dorsey was the best player in the draft by many accounts.

Now, two years later, Dorsey has some experience and will be on his THIRD DC in that time period. Has he set the world on fire? No, but he is without a doubt, at least the second best player on this defense, if not the best. This defense was manhandled when he was out, bitch slapped.

So, you want to trade him for another DL, with no NFL experience, and basically throw away the 2008 pick?
Not me, it is time to let some of these players develop under good coaching, and find another position to spend a top 5 pick on. How about spending them on playmakers? Game changers!

Dammit, pretty soon this team is going to be back to 8-8, mediocrity, and will be drafting after the playmakers are gone. WTF!! Don't we ever learn?
Pick the playmakers now, when you are drafting high and they are still on the board, don't wait until you are drafting 18-23 again.

[Sully]

This trade would be, for all intents and purposes, marginally upgrading a position of relative strength rather than greatly improving a position of weakness. Please, no.

[HemiEd]

Furthermore, it is WELL documented that the front 3, in the 3-4 are not going to be game changers, so it would be a waste of more talent. Unless this team changes gears again, and goes back to the 4-3, I want to see some top line backers added. This defense is supposed to feature the linebackers, and the best one this team has, is a backup.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'm sorry, but Detroit is not giving up the equivalent of the 8th overall pick for Glenn Dorsey.

Matt Millen wouldn't even do this deal.

I can't believe this thread has more than 125 posts.

The idea of this trade is so ludicrous that I can't believe that anyone is playing along.

[Dave Lane]

No, you wouldn't. You'd be giving up dorsey and whomever you would otherwise draft at 5 for suh and a second. That is piss poor value, imo.
Posted via Mobile Device

I hope you posted this from your mobile phone without thinking.

You traded #5 for #2 and got a second thrown in basically for Dorsey and it is basically a low 1st. So maybe you get Suh and Mays for Dorsey and maybe Berry.

Done deal.

[Brock]

I hope you posted this from your mobile phone without thinking.

You traded #5 for #2 and got a second thrown in basically for Dorsey and it is basically a low 1st. So maybe you get Suh and Mays for Dorsey and maybe Berry.

Done deal.

ROFL Wow.

[HemiEd]

I hope you posted this from your mobile phone without thinking.

You traded #5 for #2 and got a second thrown in basically for Dorsey and it is basically a low 1st. So maybe you get Suh and Mays for Dorsey and maybe Berry.

Done deal.
I don't see it that way, but dress it up how ever you want. You gave a #5, overall for Dorsey, just two years ago. Now you are throwing him in with your current #5, to move up a couple spots and get an early second.

No thanks, please.

Could I interest you in a low mile Toyota, one where the air bags worked well?

[Dave Lane]

I don't see it that way, but dress it up how ever you want. You gave a #5, overall for Dorsey, just two years ago. Now you are throwing him in with your current #5, to move up a couple spots and get an early second.

No thanks, please.

Could I interest you in a low mile Toyota, one where the air bags worked well?

You wouldn't take a low 1st for Dorsey at this point? God I would. He's not a NT or a 3-4 DE.

[Coogs]

I can't believe this thread has more than 125 posts.

The idea of this trade is so ludicrous that I can't believe that anyone is playing along.

Thanks.

It's a football discussion 4 weeks before the draft envolving an article that says Detroit has a possible trade partner.

No big deal. Just a football discussion.

[Coogs]

Hell, I have talked about trading down if Suh fell to us at #5. I have talked about us taking Berry. I have talked about us taking Clausen. I have brought up many different scenarios... all of which have some merit.

In the end, it is probalbly going to be Okung anyway. We all know it.

[Nightfyre]

You wouldn't take a low 1st for Dorsey at this point? God I would. He's not a NT or a 3-4 DE.

That's funny, because he pretty much was the best 3-4 DE on the field for our team last year. And no, Dorsey is worth more than a low first by which you mean a SECOND ROUND PICK. If Dorsey was there at 25 in this years draft, you'd be retarded not to take him.

[Ralphy Boy]

This trade would be, for all intents and purposes, marginally upgrading a position of relative strength rather than greatly improving a position of weakness. Please, no.

I wouldn't say that I think it is a "marginal upgrade", but I get your point.

Would you have a problem trading Dorsey for their 2nd round pick?

[Dave Lane]

That's funny, because he pretty much was the best 3-4 DE on the field for our team last year. And no, Dorsey is worth more than a low first by which you mean a SECOND ROUND PICK. If Dorsey was there at 25 in this years draft, you'd be retarded not to take him.

Then you like him alot better than I do. If I could get Suh I'd trade him for a low 1st high 2nd in a NY second

[Nightfyre]

Then you like him alot better than I do. If I could get Suh I'd trade him for a low 1st high 2nd in a NY second

He is more than adequate at 34 end, especially considering his surrounding cast. I don't understand how people can possibly want to trade Dorsey for such a marginal return. I can't wait to see what he does when they get a real NT in there.

[Tribal Warfare]

He is more than adequate at 34 end, especially considering his surrounding cast. I don't understand how people can possibly want to trade Dorsey for such a marginal return. I can't wait to see what he does when they get a real NT in there.

That's what I'm thinking too the value simply isn't there

[Sully]

I wouldn't say that I think it is a "marginal upgrade", but I get your point.

Would you have a problem trading Dorsey for their 2nd round pick?

Yeah.
I'd want more than that.

[DeezNutz]

A high 2nd? No fucking way.

One word to describe Dorsey's value: Cleveland.

[Dave Lane]

Wow. You are using a chart when the vast majority of quantities are known here? So we are clear:
Chiefs trade:
Dorsey
Berry/Clausen/okung/Whoever they would draft here

For:
Suh
Some top of the second talent.

I don't see where we come out ahead in this deal. Is Suh such an upgrade to Suh that he's worth giving up Berry/Clausen for a talent at the top of the second round?

I'd take Suh over Berry 2000 times out of a 1000.

Dorsey is then traded for a high second. Is this really this hard to follow?

[Dave Lane]

Yeah.
I'd want more than that.

If you picked up Suh? Would you take #35?

[Nightfyre]

I'd take Suh over Berry 2000 times out of a 1000.

Dorsey is then traded for a high second. Is this really this hard to follow?

Yea. Dorsey is worth far more than a high second.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Brock]

I'd take Suh over Berry 2000 times out of a 1000.

Dorsey is then traded for a high second. Is this really this hard to follow?

It's not hard to follow, it's stupid. Blindingly stupid.

[Coogs]

Yea. Dorsey is worth far more than a high second.
Posted via Mobile Device

It does cost a little bit to move from #5 to #2. 900 points to be exact. Which is the value of the 18th overall pick in the draft.

[Nightfyre]

It does cost a little bit to move from #5 to #2. 900 points to be exact. Which is the value of the 18th overall pick in the draft.

Your point is retarded since we are talking about a specific set of players.

It costs us 1140 points according to the draft value chart to "upgrade" from dorsey to suh in this case. That's pick number 13. That is a more logical way to look at this trade than your comparison. Why? Because we know who suh is, we don't quantify his value in points.

So would you trade dorsey plus thirteen for suh? I sure as shit wouldn't.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Coogs]

Your point is retarded since we are talking about a specific set of players.

It costs us 1140 points according to the draft value chart to "upgrade" from dorsey to suh in this case. That's pick number 13. That is a more logical way to look at this trade than your comparison. Why? Because we know who suh is, we don't quantify his value in points.
Posted via Mobile Device

I am well aware of all of this... except the retarded part.

And read posts 133 and 134 while you are at it.

[Nightfyre]

I am well aware of all of this... except the retarded part.

And read posts 133 and 134 while you are at it.

I have read all of the completely flawed analysis in this thread. However, I can't see post numbers on cp mobile. However if you are refering to the analysis that suggests dorsey is worth 2300 points, it os invalid because you are getting a player not points. Effectively, detroit is trading us suh for dorsey plus moving from 34 to 5. That is a bad deal for the chiefs. Frankly, I don't know how that is even debatable.

Would you rather have dorsey and pick at 5 or suh and pick at 34? Who would you pick at 34?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Coogs]

I have read all of the completely flawed analysis in this thread. However, I can't see post numbers on cp mobile. However if you are refering to the analysis that suggests dorsey is worth 2300 points, it os invalid because you are getting a player not points. Effectively, detroit is trading us suh for dorsey plus moving from 34 to 5. That is a bad deal for the chiefs. Frankly, I don't know how that is even debatable.

Would you rather have dorsey and pick at 5 or suh and pick at 34? Who would you pick at 34?
Posted via Mobile Device

Until you can read posts 133 and 134 I won't respond to your last questions. I never have I posted Dorsey is worth 2300 poin

I will however give you a lengthy explination on why I think this scenario has a slim possibility of happening. It will be in aother post, and may be a bit before it appears, as I am at work right now.

[Sully]

If you picked up Suh? Would you take #35?

No.
Like I said, we'd be giving up the opportunity to get way better at another position, so we could marginally upgrade at another. Remember, Dorsey was every bit as good as Suh in college.

[The Bad Guy]

No.
Like I said, we'd be giving up the opportunity to get way better at another position, so we could marginally upgrade at another. Remember, Dorsey was every bit as good as Suh in college.

No, he wasn't.

Dorsey was a stud, but no way was he as good as Suh.

[philfree]

No, he wasn't.

Dorsey was a stud, but no way was he as good as Suh.

I agree.

PhilFree:arrow:

[Coogs]

OK, I have time to respond now.

First of all, I firmly believe Pioli is going to build this team the way he thinks it should be built. He pretty much has done that already by bringing in Cassel, and forcing the switch to the 3-4 defense. The selection of Jackson with the first pick last year went against all logic for almost all of us, and continues to be debated to this very day. But I still don't think Pioli really gives a crap what we all think. I believe Whitlock is correct to a degree when he says Pioli has a bit of an ego. And when he builds this team, it is going to be his way... and with his own players. My best guess at this point is that only Flowers and Charles from the previous regime can really be comfortable with their positions on the team. Everything and everyone else probably can be had for a price. That being said...

If Pioli feels that Suh can have an effect on a 3-4 defense from the Right End position that say a Bruce Smith did in the early 90's with Buffalo, then I most certainly could see him trying to move up to the #2 spot to try and land him.

Now I am not saying Suh has the same exact skill set that Bruce Smith had... Smith was quicker... but if he can have an impact from that postion like Smith did, then he is very much worth the trade up to get in that #2 slot.

At this time, I do not see that ability out of Dorsey at the RE position. Granted Dorsey was our best D-lineman last season, but that is not a ringing endorsement.

Now Pioli does not have the luxury of hindsight to tell him if Suh is going to be able to effect a game like Smith did, but that is why he is getting paid millions by Clark, to have the foresight to predict the overall outcome of a player.

If Suh is only a marginal upgrade over Dorsey, then no you do not even consider such a deal.

The other part of the equation is the LT position. Many have argued on just how good Albert is, and how good Albert is in comparison to Okung (and the rest of the LT's). It appears that Albert and Okung could be one and the same. And that alone should be good enough for both the Chiefs AND the Lions.

From Detroit's prospective, they have to get a LT. They can not go into the season and let Stafford get injured like he did last season. Getting Dorsey, who fits their scheme, and being able to select Okung/Bulaga at #5 to protect their franchise QB is a win-win situation for them.

And, if Suh could be a Smith caliber game changer at the RDE spot, then the #35 pick turns out to be a win-win for the Chiefs as well.

Do I expect this to happen? No. But would I be shocked if something along these lines did happen? No.

[The Bad Guy]

Suh is nothing like Bruce Smith. Bruce Smith was fast as hell off the edge, Suh is a mauler inside. I don't know how that comparison could ever be made.

[Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan]

What I'm not understanding is, why would Detroit give us their #2 AND their 2nd rounder for #5 and Dorsey.

I could see it if you were saying our #5 and Dorsey for their #2 and maybe a 5th, but Dorsey isn't worth the difference between those three places AND a 2nd rounder. They should be asking for OUR draft picks, not giving us theirs to let us jump up.

I just don't see the logic of this trade. What's really in it for Detroit.

Hell, if they want Okung, then just draft him at #2 and get it over with and then pick a DE with their 2nd. Why would they do us a favor like that? Gunther isn't that powerful.

[Nightfyre]

What I'm not understanding is, why would Detroit give us their #2 AND their 2nd rounder for #5 and Dorsey.

I could see it if you were saying our #5 and Dorsey for their #2 and maybe a 5th, but Dorsey isn't worth the difference between those three places AND a 2nd rounder. They should be asking for OUR draft picks, not giving us theirs to let us jump up.

I just don't see the logic of this trade. What's really in it for Detroit.

Hell, if they want Okung, then just draft him at #2 and get it over with and then pick a DE with their 2nd. Why would they do us a favor like that? Gunther isn't that powerful.

:facepalm:

[Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan]

:facepalm:

You can cover your face all you want to.

I think anyone who thinks this trade scenario would work as it's laid out has "pie-in-the-sky-itis".

If I'm missing something, I'd appreciate an actual response with something like, oh, I don't know, facts.

[Nightfyre]

You can cover your face all you want to.

I think anyone who thinks this trade scenario would work as it's laid out has "pie-in-the-sky-itis".

If I'm missing something, I'd appreciate an actual response with something like, oh, I don't know, facts.

Basically, we are trading Suh for Dorsey in this scenario. Suh does not present such an upgrade to the Chiefs that he would warrant us also trading down from 5 to 34, which is roughly a 1140 point value drop per the draft chart. That equates to the 13th pick. So would "upgrading" from Dorsey to Suh be worth the 13th pick in the draft? Hell to the fuck no.

[BossChief]

Suh is nothing like Bruce Smith. Bruce Smith was fast as hell off the edge, Suh is a mauler inside. I don't know how that comparison could ever be made. I think you should reread his post again. He was saying that he could have the same effect on a defense as Bruce did, not that they are similar players.

I think its a very very valid point and in fact I made the same one months ago.

Bruce Smith played in a 3-4 during his career in Buffalo and got a shit ton of sacks while staying stout against the run and that keyed championship caliber defenses.

I think Suh can be that guy, too.

#2 pick = 2600
#5 pick = 1700
#34 pick = 560

That means that SL would be giving up 3160 in draft value points in this trade and we would be giving up 1700 + Dorsey.

If my basic algebra skills serve me correctly (1700 + a = 3160), that means that we would be getting 1460 in draft value points for Dorsey in this scenario. That is value of the #7-#8 pick overall for Dorsey and that is great value for him.

That is something I can live with in a draft like this that Detroits second rounder is the equivalent to a mid to late first in most drafts.

I think Dorsey is gonna be a solid player in this scheme, but Suh would be dominant in it. That is worth it.



I figured I would post this again since some still cant understand it.

[Nightfyre]

I think you should reread his post again. He was saying that he could have the same effect on a defense as Bruce did, not that they are similar players.

I think its a very very valid point and in fact I made the same one months ago.

Bruce Smith played in a 3-4 during his career in Buffalo and got a shit ton of sacks while staying stout against the run and that keyed championship caliber defenses.

I think Suh can be that guy, too.



I figured I would post this again since some still cant understand it.

I disagree with the fundamental logic behind your post, given the knowns at hand. We're not trading for the #2 pick. We're trading for Suh.

[BossChief]

I disagree with the fundamental logic behind your post, given the knowns at hand. We're not trading for the #2 pick. We're trading for Suh.

nevermind

[Coogs]

nevermind

Jesus. No kidding.

[BossChief]

I wonder where we would be if this had actually happened.