Charlie Casserly says.......

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Colt McCoy is the most accurate passer he's seen come out of collegeg in a long, long time. FYI !

[Mecca]

And this is why Casserly works on TV and isn't a GM any more.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

And this is why Casserly works on TV and isn't a GM any more.

What was Colts completion % ?

[Mecca]

Dude he played in a college scheme that inflates completion percentage, how hard is this to grasp?

[Deberg_1990]

Casserly had some good drafts and alot of success in Washington...

But this is the guy who drafted Heath Shuler and David Carr....so i wouldnt trust his QB eval skills.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Dude he played in a college scheme that inflates completion percentage, how hard is this to grasp?

Ok. BUT, how many other NFL QB,s did the same ? Legit question ? I don't know why I see him in a different light than most but then again he is the #3 rated QB. I really, really have that gut feeling he's gonna turn into something special in the NFL.

And Casserly was hired by NFLnetwork as an analyst for a reason.

[Mecca]

How many successful NFL QB's are from the spread?

2, and there are about 100 failures probably more if I really wanted to deeply delve into it.

Colt McCoy has everything working against him, he's short, he's small, he has an average arm at best, so much so he was protected at his pro day only making short throws. He comes from a college scheme that doesn't prepare you for the next level, he also has durability questions.

What does this guy have going for him?

In a lot of ways he's David Greene in a more QB friendly offense. Let's see if anyone else remembers David Greene.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

How many successful NFL QB's are from the spread?

2, and there are about 100 failures probably more if I really wanted to deeply delve into it.

Colt McCoy has everything working against him, he's short, he's small, he has an average arm at best, so much so he was protected at his pro day only making short throws. He comes from a college scheme that doesn't prepare you for the next level, he also has durability questions.

What does this guy have going for him?

In a lot of ways he's David Greene in a more QB friendly offense. Let's see if anyone else remembers David Greene.

I respect your educated opinion. I just hope I get to tell you , I told you so.

[Mecca]

For every 1 Drew Brees that made it, there are 200 failures.

[FD]

Texas runs an offense that replaces the running game with lots of very short passes and WR screens, which inflates his completion percentage (I think he set a record for highest ever.) I'm not saying his deep and middle range passes are inaccurate necessarily, just that his stats are biased.

[DeezNutz]

For every 1 Drew Brees that made it, there are 200 failures.

Name those 200, please. All 200. Don't give me 6 or even 19 names. :evil:

[Mecca]

He doesn't even throw deep passes, at his pro day he didn't throw any, he was protected.

[Saul Good]

For every 1 Drew Brees that made it, there are 200 failures.

3 of the last 5 Superbowls have been won by QBs who ran the spread in college, and the Patriots are probably the closest thing to a spread offense in the NFL.

I don't disagree that it's better to have a pro-style QB, but I think you go too far the other direction.

[SAUTO]

How many successful NFL QB's are from the spread?

2, and there are about 100 failures probably more if I really wanted to deeply delve into it.

Colt McCoy has everything working against him, he's short, he's small, he has an average arm at best, so much so he was protected at his pro day only making short throws. He comes from a college scheme that doesn't prepare you for the next level, he also has durability questions.

What does this guy have going for him?

In a lot of ways he's David Greene in a more QB friendly offense. Let's see if anyone else remembers David Greene.

qb georgia
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Watch this and tell me you don't want him a Chief. A 40 yd pass with the flick of a wrist is weak.

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[Mecca]

That's a lot of what he is, just Greene didn't have the gaudy stats because he was in a pro style offense.

[Mecca]

Watch this and tell me you don't want him a Chief. A 40 yd pass with the flick of a wrist is weak.

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That is not a strong arm throw, he floats a ball on the run to a guy who's wide open.

We've discussed numerous times how you measure arm strength, anytime you see a ball floating like that down the field it means the QB doesn't have a strong arm.

[BigCatDaddy]

3 of the last 5 Superbowls have been won by QBs who ran the spread in college, and the Patriots are probably the closest thing to a spread offense in the NFL.

I don't disagree that it's better to have a pro-style QB, but I think you go too far the other direction.

What it boils down to is can you make the throws and can you be a leader. I don't care if Drew Brees ran the wishbone in college, once he got to the NFL he was going to be a successful QB because of those two things.

[BigCatDaddy]

That is not a strong arm throw, he floats a ball on the run to a guy who's wide open.

We've discussed numerous times how you measure arm strength, anytime you see a ball floating like that down the field it means the QB doesn't have a strong arm.

His arm may not be the strongest out there, but neither was Rich Gannon's or Jeff Garcia's. In the right system he can succeed.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

That is not a strong arm throw, he floats a ball on the run to a guy who's wide open.

We've discussed numerous times how you measure arm strength, anytime you see a ball floating like that down the field it means the QB doesn't have a strong arm.

OK. Now you're losing my respect.

[Mecca]

In fairness until Phillip Rivers was drafted, Brees was a bum.

[Mecca]

His arm may not be the strongest out there, but neither was Rich Gannon's or Jeff Garcia's. In the right system he can succeed.

Which makes him system limited...seriously because Drew Brees who has a better arm than McCoy does or Jeff Garcia "made it" do you think it's ok to draft midget QB's?

Guys like McCoy, the odds of him ever being anything are so astronomical, he literally has nothing going for him in transitioning to the next level.

[Mecca]

OK. Now you're losing my respect.

Because that was a shitty example of arm strength?

[Ebolapox]

How many successful NFL QB's are from the spread?

2, and there are about 100 failures probably more if I really wanted to deeply delve into it.

Colt McCoy has everything working against him, he's short, he's small, he has an average arm at best, so much so he was protected at his pro day only making short throws. He comes from a college scheme that doesn't prepare you for the next level, he also has durability questions.

What does this guy have going for him?

In a lot of ways he's David Greene in a more QB friendly offense. Let's see if anyone else remembers David Greene.

georgia david greene? drafted by seattle and even had a cup of coffee here in preseason? yeah, that's not THAT obscure a reference.

[Mecca]

And Greene got drafted in the 3rd round...honestly Seattle drafting him has made me wonder if the Browns would take McCoy in the 2nd.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

This is from 2006 , but I see alot of snaps coming from behind center. His interview on NFL network, he stated he 's working on 3,5,7 step drops , it's not a big deal. And if you want a QB that can throw in the run , he's your man. Watch.

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[Mecca]

You need to explain why are you pimping Colt McCoy, I really wanna know.

And here just for you...

Asked one team about Colt McCoys workout and they said it was solid not spectacular. Not much 7 step. A lot of manageable throws for him.

[Saul Good]

You need to explain why are you pimping Colt McCoy, I really wanna know.

And here just for you...

Asked one team about Colt McCoys workout and they said it was solid not spectacular. Not much 7 step. A lot of manageable throws for him.

How often do you see 7 step drops?

[Ebolapox]

How often do you see 7 step drops?

these days? behind our recent o-lines? not very damned many.

[Mecca]

How often do you see 7 step drops?

If you're a downfield passing team, a lot.

McCoy doesn't have the arm for that so he's obviously not gonna bust it out on pro day and make himself look bad.

I'm still trying to figure out what this guy has going for him that makes anyone think he can make it in the NFL.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

3 of the last 5 Superbowls have been won by QBs who ran the spread in college, and the Patriots are probably the closest thing to a spread offense in the NFL.

I don't disagree that it's better to have a pro-style QB, but I think you go too far the other direction.

The shotgun spread single read system with a zone option running game is not an NFL offense and isn't related to what the Patriots have run whatsoever. Tom Brady doesn't have an offensive coordinator telling him who to throw it to, and if he's covered, tuck and run every play.

If you think they're similar just because they both pass a lot and operate out of the shotgun, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Saul Good]

these days? behind our recent o-lines? not very damned many.

I don't remember ever seeing Brady take a 7 step drop. He probably does, but I sure don't recall it.

[Saul Good]

Shotgun spread single read system with a zone option running game is not an NFL offense and isn't related to what the Patriots have run whatsoever. Tom Brady doesn't have an offensive coordinator telling him who to throw it to, and if he's covered, tuck and run every play.

If you think they're similar just because they both pass a lot and operate out of the shotgun, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Hence "the closest thing to a spread offense in the NFL" and not "OMG, the Patriots run a zone read"!

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

How bout this weak armed pass to Jamaal Charles



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[Mecca]

I wonder if Bradford or McCoy will pull up from center and look at the sideline for an audible as the coach looks at them and goes "Uh WTF is he doing?"

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

these days? behind our recent o-lines? not very damned many.

Actually behind our line there's a lot of thirty/forty step drops/getaways.

[Mecca]

How bout this weak armed pass to Jamaal Charles



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You really don't understand arm strength do you?

See how that ball is floating? That means he doesn't have a strong arm, Chad Pennington throws lollypops because he has a shitty arm.

When you see a 25 yard out on a frozen rope, that guy has a strong arm.

[Saul Good]

You really don't understand arm strength do you?

See how that ball is floating? That means he doesn't have a strong arm, Chad Pennington throws lollypops because he has a shitty arm.

When you see a 25 yard out on a frozen rope, that guy has a strong arm.

The old 25 yard out, eh? Who currently throws the best 25 yard out in the NFL?

[Mecca]

Farmer this is what I want you to do...

Watch some throws from Rodgers, Stafford, Cutler and Favre, they all have very strong arms.

Then watch some guys like Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Tony Romo, they have average NFL arms.

Then watch Chad Pennington and Colt McCoy.

You should easily see what the difference in a strong arm is and isn't. The examples you are posting don't show arm strength.

[Mecca]

The old 25 yard out, eh? Who currently throws the best 25 yard out in the NFL?

For the mix of arm strength and accuracy, I go with Rodgers, guy puts everything on a line and rarely misses and doesn't throw many picks on top of it.

Another year or 2 and he may very well become the gold standard.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

You really don't understand arm strength do you?

See how that ball is floating? That means he doesn't have a strong arm, Chad Pennington throws lollypops because he has a shitty arm.

When you see a 25 yard out on a frozen rope, that guy has a strong arm.

What I have seen is he throws a ball that receivers can catch, and he throws them to the right spot . I don't care how hard a QB can throw the ball if it's not catchable. Arm strength is way overrated in your world. Joe montana is a good example .

[Mecca]

Montana had a better arm than McCoy does, go watch his passes against Nebraska in the Big 12 title game, he was awful.

He also consistently missed throws NFL QB's have to make.

[Saul Good]

For the mix of arm strength and accuracy, I go with Rodgers, guy puts everything on a line and rarely misses and doesn't throw many picks on top of it.

Another year or 2 and he may very well become the gold standard.

I'd have to see a video of it. A sideline route, sure. I'm not familiar with the 25 yard out route.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Hence "the closest thing to a spread offense in the NFL" and not "OMG, the Patriots run a zone read"!

Hence, not even close.

McCoy doesn't even know how to read a defense. If you think the two are similar because they pass a lot and because they both take snaps from shotgun, again, you have no clue.

And the closest thing any team has run to a college spread is when we embarrassed ourselves by running the pistol.

[Hammock Parties]

Brodie Croyle was a better prospect than Colt McCoy....just think about that for a second.

[Mecca]

I just want someone to tell me what Colt McCoy does well that will transition to the next level.

[milkman]

In fairness until Phillip Rivers was drafted, Brees was a bum.

That's just stupid.

He was in his third year.

He developed at the pace you would expect a QB that put in the work and had to talent to succeed.

[Mecca]

All I'm going to say about that is if the Chargers believed in him they wouldn't have taken another QB, so that shows you what they thought of him at the time.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Brodie Croyle was a better prospect than Colt McCoy....just think about that for a second.

By who. And when.

[Saul Good]

Hence, not even close.

McCoy doesn't even know how to read a defense. If you think the two are similar because they pass a lot and because they both take snaps from shotgun, again, you have no clue.

And the closest thing any team has run to a college spread is when we embarrassed ourselves by running the pistol.

Not all spreads are read options. Look at what Roethlisberger ran in college. It's far from identical to what the Patriots run, but they are the closest thing in the NFL.

Brees just won a Superbowl, Roethlisberger has multiple rings, and the Patriots have been in 4 recently with 3 wins.

The current consensus among NFL brass is that a spread QB is the best QB in the draft. The guy CP is in love with is rated, at the very least, a large step down from Bradford by most scouts. You're going to have to get over your obsession against spread QBs, or football isn't going to be your thing much longer.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

What more could you expect from a QB ?

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT

2006 217 318 2570 68.2 8.08 72 29 7 14 161.82

2007 276 424 3303 65.1 7.79 62 22 18 24 139.16

2008 332 433 3859 76.7 8.91 91 34 8 24 173.75

2009 332 470 3521 70.6 7.49 88 27 12 30 147.41

[Saul Good]

I just want someone to tell me what Colt McCoy does well that will transition to the next level.

He's accurate.

[Mecca]

He is not accurate, his system inflates his numbers, if you watch him actually try to make tough throws he's horrible at it.

And please you can not post stats to back a QB that played in the spread, their numbers are all inflated, Colt Brennan had ridiculous inflated stats, by that token he should be tearing shit up right now.

I think the NFL is going to be in for a rude awakening when Clausen is better than Bradford just like when they all had the spread guy Alex Smith ahead of Aaron Rodgers, see how that turned out.

[Saul Good]

That's just stupid.

He was in his third year.

He developed at the pace you would expect a QB that put in the work and had to talent to succeed.

He was 27 TDs and 7 INTs his fourth year with a 104.8 rating his fourth year.

Manning was 26 TDs and 23 INTs with a rating of 84.1 his fourth year. In fact, Manning didn't put up a year close to Brees's fourth season until Manning's 6th season, and even that wasn't as good as Brees's fourth.

[Hammock Parties]

By who. And when.

Croyle has the edge in arm strength, height, didn't play in a pop warner system....he was considered a first-round prospect had it not been for his injury issues.

Meanwhile you can probably find 50 quarterbacks in college who are short with unimpressive arms and played in the spread. McCoy emerged because he played for a big-time winning program and yes, he does have some accuracy. Other than that there's not much to like.

Maybe if McCoy hadn't played in the spread he would be more attractive as a pro prospect...but unfortunately he did.

[Saul Good]

He is not accurate, his system inflates his numbers, if you watch him actually try to make tough throws he's horrible at it.

And please you can not post stats to back a QB that played in the spread, their numbers are all inflated, Colt Brennan had ridiculous inflated stats, by that token he should be tearing shit up right now.

I think the NFL is going to be in for a rude awakening when Clausen is better than Bradford just like when they all had the spread guy Alex Smith ahead of Aaron Rodgers, see how that turned out.

Of course spread numbers are inflated. There's no denying that.

Comparing Alex Smith to Aaron Rodgers is comparing two completely different situations. Smith got thrown into the fire right off the bat with the worst team in the NFL. Rodgers got to sit for 3 years behind a Hall of Fame QB and then take over a team who was an overtime loss away from playing in the Superbowl the year before.

[DeezNutz]

If Croyle has a better body type, without the laundry list of injuries, he's Matt Stafford.

[Mecca]

Of course spread numbers are inflated. There's no denying that.

Comparing Alex Smith to Aaron Rodgers is comparing two completely different situations. Smith got thrown into the fire right off the bat with the worst team in the NFL. Rodgers got to sit for 3 years behind a Hall of Fame QB and then take over a team who was an overtime loss away from playing in the Superbowl the year before.

And if Bradford gets drafted by the Rams and Clausen has this fall everyone seems to think is going to happen, how's it different?

[Saul Good]

If Croyle has a better body type, without the laundry list of injuries, he's Matt Stafford.

Brodie completed 56% of his passes in college and never completed 60% in the 3 seasons he played more than 3 games.

[Saul Good]

And if Bradford gets drafted by the Rams and Clausen has this fall everyone seems to think is going to happen, how's it different?

It's not. That doesn't make the QB who gets his career destroyed a bad pick, though.

Maybe Smith would have been a good QB, and maybe he wouldn't. I would guess that things would have worked out better for him had his situation been more along the lines of Aaron Rodgers's, though.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Not all spreads are read options. Look at what Roethlisberger ran in college. It's far from identical to what the Patriots run, but they are the closest thing in the NFL.

Brees just won a Superbowl, Roethlisberger has multiple rings, and the Patriots have been in 4 recently with 3 wins.

The current consensus among NFL brass is that a spread QB is the best QB in the draft. The guy CP is in love with is rated, at the very least, a large step down from Bradford by most scouts. You're going to have to get over your obsession against spread QBs, or football isn't going to be your thing much longer.

I never said all spreads were read options, you dumb sonofabitch. If you knew how to read, you'd see that I was differentiating between the spread that teams like the Patriots run and what McCoy ran at Texas, which is why I mentioned the specifics of the zone read system and the single read passing game.

Also, not how I didn't mention that it was a run-based Shotgun spread triple option derivative, a la, Urban Meyer.

Again, you keep inventing shit and ventriloquizing others in order to construct a completely fabricated set of points.

[Saul Good]

And if Bradford gets drafted by the Rams and Clausen has this fall everyone seems to think is going to happen, how's it different?

Let me state for the record that I would rather have Clausen than Bradford. I'm just saying that a lot of the draftniks around here are going overboard on the anti-spread thing.

[Mecca]

Brodie Croyle played in a pro style offense, Colt McCoy plays in a spread.

If you switch them I think it's a far safer bet that Croyle can hit and even surpass McCoy's numbers than it is that McCoy can do what Croyle did in that offense.

[Hammock Parties]

Brodie completed 56% of his passes in college and never completed 60% in the 3 seasons he played more than 3 games.

That's because he didn't play in the spread.

[Saul Good]

If you knew how to read, you'd see that I was differentiating between the spread that teams like the Patriots run

My quote

The Patriots are probably the closest thing to a spread offense in the NFL.

Who's putting words in peoples' mouths you dumbf***? I never compared the Patriots' offense to the Longhorns'. I'm not even pimping McCoy. My point is that the spread isn't the plague when it comes to transitioning from college to the NFL like some here tend to believe. That's why I pointed out that there have been six Superbowls won recently by teams who either run an NFL spread or by QBs who ran the spread in college.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Brodie completed 56% of his passes in college and never completed 60% in the 3 seasons he played more than 3 games.

I can see why he's rated over McCoy! LMAO From what I've seen of McCoy throwing on the run with great accuracy makes me want him !

[Mecca]

The spread really does hurt the development of QB's, it's why so many of them fail while the guys from pro style offenses that still exist are the young QB's succeeding.

Because Drew Brees and Ben Roethlisberger made it does not make up for the abundance of turds the spread produced. The spread is awful for the development of QB's.

[Mecca]

I can see why he's rated over McCoy! LMAO

I'd take the time to argue with you if you knew what the difference in a pro style and spread scheme were and what it did to numbers but it's pretty obvious you don't.

[Saul Good]

Brodie Croyle played in a pro style offense, Colt McCoy plays in a spread.

If you switch them I think it's a far safer bet that Croyle can hit and even surpass McCoy's numbers than it is that McCoy can do what Croyle did in that offense.

The comparison was to Stafford. Here's Stafford's senior numbers:

2008 235 382 3,459 61.5 25 10 153.9

I'll grant you that there is some comparison, but Stafford was more accurate and more durable.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

My quote



Who's putting words in peoples' mouths you dumbf***? I never compared the Patriots' offense to the Longhorns'. I'm not even pimping McCoy. My point is that the spread isn't the plague when it comes to transitioning from college to the NFL like some here tend to believe. That's why I pointed out that there have been six Superbowls won recently by teams who either run an NFL spread or by QBs who ran the spread in college.

Except for the fact that the Patriots "spread" was not the closest thing to a spread in the NFL, so your dumb fucking quote is based upon false information.

More importantly, even if it were the closest thing, and it's not, the ocean of differences between the NFL and college versions make them so dissimilar as to render any comparisons completely irrelevant and cast the person making said comparisons as a drooling mongoloid.

Congratulations, now dip a cucklebur in turpentine and shove it up your ass.

Oh, and when the Patriots won their three Super Bowls, they were not running the spread. They ran the Erhardt-Perkins offense, but the run-based PA version. They didn't start running the "Air Erhardt" version until they got Moss and Welker, save for part of the 2002 season, where they didn't even make the fucking playoffs.

[DeezNutz]

Brodie completed 56% of his passes in college and never completed 60% in the 3 seasons he played more than 3 games.

Stafford had one season over 60%, and he was 61.5%

Brodie's single high was 59.5%.

Very, very similar.

[Saul Good]

Except for the fact that the Patriots "spread" was not the closest thing to a spread in the NFL, so your dumb ****ing quote is based upon false information.

Take it up with Hamas

the spread that teams like the Patriots run

[Ebolapox]

The comparison was to Stafford. Here's Stafford's senior numbers:

2008 235 382 3,459 61.5 25 10 153.9

I'll grant you that there is some comparison, but Stafford was more accurate and more durable.

better surrouding cast, too (stafford, that is)

[Mecca]

The comparison was to Stafford. Here's Stafford's senior numbers:

2008 235 382 3,459 61.5 25 10 153.9

I'll grant you that there is some comparison, but Stafford was more accurate and more durable.

Ok we shouldn't be comparing Stafford with Croyle, Stafford is one of the few blue chip QB prospects we've had in a several year period.

The only thing they have in common is the big arm and Stafford's is bigger.

[Saul Good]

Brodie Croyle played in a pro style offense, Colt McCoy plays in a spread.

If you switch them I think it's a far safer bet that Croyle can hit and even surpass McCoy's numbers than it is that McCoy can do what Croyle did in that offense.

McCoy's worst season in terms of accuracy was 6% higher than Croyle's best season. McCoy's best season was 17% higher than Croyle's best.

I'll grant that the system inflates the numbers, but it doesn't inflate them enough to make Brodie Croyle, a guy who never completed 60% of his passes, the most accurate passer in the history of college football.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

I'm just curios and don't get me wrong. I don't know. But can you tell me what style of offense the best of todays QB's came from.

P.Manning....
E. Manning...
Brees...
McNaab...
Vick....
Rivers....
Cutler...
Brady...
Hasselback...

[Mecca]

If you can't complete 65% in a spread offense you are the worst passer of all time, have you ever seen the numbers on those QB's?

It made Omar Jacobs a 70% passer that had like 40 TD's and 3 picks.

[Mecca]

I'm just curios and don't get me wrong. I don't know. But can you tell me what style of offense the best of todays QB's came from.

P.Manning....
E. Manning...
Brees...
McNaab...
Vick....
Rivers....
Cutler...
Brady...
Hasselback...

They're all pro style except for Brees, and Vick sucks so why are you putting him up there as "one of the best".

[DeezNutz]

The comparison was to Stafford. Here's Stafford's senior numbers:

2008 235 382 3,459 61.5 25 10 153.9

I'll grant you that there is some comparison, but Stafford was more accurate and more durable.

Not sure why you're noting durability, since this was my exception in the original post. I said that "if Croyle had a better body type and lacked the history of injuries, he's be Stafford."

And the accuracy is absolutely comparable. 59.5% vs. 61.5%.

[Saul Good]

Ok we shouldn't be comparing Stafford with Croyle, Stafford is one of the few blue chip QB prospects we've had in a several year period.

The only thing they have in common is the big arm and Stafford's is bigger.

I totally agree.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

They're all pro style except for Brees, and Vick sucks so why are you putting him up there as "one of the best".

Didn't Brees just win the SB ! :p

[Mecca]

In fairness to Stafford he doesn't have great college accuracy numbers because of how often he was turning it lose 20+ yards downfield.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Take it up with Hamas

I don't know how much more clearly I can put it to your dumb fucking ass.

"Spread" is a variable term and comparing college and NFL versions does not work because the offenses are predicated upon entirely different things.

This has been hashed out for idiots such as your stupid fucking self in here before.

Variants of things that could be considered "spread" or "spread-ish"

Run and Shoot
K-Gun
Air Erhardt (Pats 2007-Present)


All of these, save for the Run and Shoot, have been run exclusively at the pro level.

Other forms of the spread

Pistol
Spread Option
Shotgun Spread
Air Raid
A-11

All of these will use elements of the zone read as their primary running play.

The difference? Almost all of these offenses are run at the college level or below, and even those offenses have a wealth of difference in the types of routes that they run and how often they pass.

[Mecca]

Didn't Brees just win the SB ! :p

Yea and he's also the shortest QB in the league.

Drew Brees is quite frankly the exception to the rule, he's a midget spread QB that made it, he might be the only one that ever makes it.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Not sure why you're noting durability, since this was my exception in the original post. .

Because he can't read.

[Saul Good]

Not sure why you're noting durability, since this was my exception in the original post. I said that "if Croyle had a better body type and lacked the history of injuries, he's be Stafford."

And the accuracy is absolutely comparable. 59.5% vs. 61.5%.

I acknowledged that there is some comparison, but I would also posit that 2 percentage points in terms of accuracy is significant. I'd compare it to about 20 points on a batting average.

[Mecca]

I personally think the "talent level" of Brodie Croyle is pretty overdone on this forum sometimes.

He has a strong arm, that's nice, that's all he has.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Yea and he's also the shortest QB in the league.

Drew Brees is quite frankly the exception to the rule, he's a midget spread QB that made it, he might be the only one that ever makes it.


Well, I predict the midget Colt McCoy to do well. He has the intangibles , heart and drive to be the best, you'll see.

God , i hope we draft him with 2 A !

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Nothing says heart like sitting out the National Championship game with a stinger when other QBs have finished far less important games with severe shoulder separations.

He didn't earn the name "Cart" McCoy because he was a courtesy clerk at a fucking Hy-Vee.

[DeezNutz]

I acknowledged that there is some comparison, but I would also posit that 2 percentage points in terms of accuracy is significant. I'd compare it to about 20 points on a batting average.

That analogy doesn't hold up at all for a variety of reasons.

So let's go to what we do know that would affect (minimal) differences in accuracy:

1. Line play.
2. WR play.
3. Running game.

Who had the advantage in these areas between the two players?

Can't believe that I'm toting water for Croyle, when I've repeatedly said I would cut him b/c of his inability to stay healthy. That said, the dude, with the proper body, would have been a 1-1 type of prospect.

[Saul Good]

Because he can't read.

Actually, it's because not every conversation in my life has to turn into a fist fight. As such, I don't have to disagree with everything Deez said in his post.

Deez said that Croyle and Stafford were pretty much the same guy except that Stafford was more durable. I said that Stafford was more durable and more accurate. Sorry that you're so emotionally frail that your world collapsed because of it.

[Nightfyre]

If you take a spread QB, you have to account for the fact that he is not likely to be productive in his first three years. Furthermore, you have to have the patience to wait those three years. Three years is about 20-30% of a good QBs career. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we could draft Clausen, and anticipate substantially less time to adapt, not only because he came from a pro-style offense, but also because he played under our OC and thus will have a substantial leg up on the system. He could be viable the first year, which would be exceptionally rare, especially given his surrounding cast.

[DeezNutz]

I personally think the "talent level" of Brodie Croyle is pretty overdone on this forum sometimes.

He has a strong arm, that's nice, that's all he has.

That's not true at all.

His all-around mechanics are above average, he's athletic, and his coaches/teammates love him.

Alas, he's made of glass.

[Mecca]

Matt Stafford can also carry weight so he's not a string bean.

[Saul Good]

That analogy doesn't hold up at all for a variety of reasons.

So let's go to what we do know that would affect (minimal) differences in accuracy:

1. Line play.
2. WR play.
3. Running game.

Who had the advantage in these areas between the two players?

Can't believe that I'm toting water for Croyle, when I've repeatedly said I would cut him b/c of his inability to stay healthy. That said, the dude, with the proper body, would have been a 1-1 type of prospect.

I don't really care enough about comparing Croyle to Stafford to dig into it, so I'll gladly cede the point that Stafford must have had a better supporting cast. That said, I think that Stafford's was often overestimated.

Either way, Croyle never did anything in the games he managed to play in the NFL. I've never seen anything in him at any level that says that he would be the most prolific spread QB in college football history. Given how frail he is, I can't imagine seeing him run the offense that McCoy ran in college. He's not as fast or as agile. He'd have been dead before he graduated.

[Saul Good]

If you take a spread QB, you have to account for the fact that he is not likely to be productive in his first three years. Furthermore, you have to have the patience to wait those three years. Three years is about 20-30% of a good QBs career. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we could draft Clausen, and anticipate substantially less time to adapt, not only because he came from a pro-style offense, but also because he played under our OC and thus will have a substantial leg up on the system. He could be viable the first year, which would be exceptionally rare, especially given his surrounding cast.

I agree, but I'm willing to wait 2-3 years if it's the right guy. I just don't think that McCoy nor Bradford is that guy.

[Nightfyre]

I agree, but I'm willing to wait 2-3 years if it's the right guy. I just don't think that McCoy nor Bradford is that guy.

I agree. And frankly, I wouldn't take such a player in the top 10 as a general rule.

[DeezNutz]

That said, I think that Stafford's was often overestimated.


In a way, I kind of agree with this.

I would have gladly drafted him last year. In a second. But I see him as a boom or bust type of prospect. I don't think he'll ever be an "average" NFL QB.

[SAUTO]

He doesn't even throw deep passes, at his pro day he didn't throw any, he was protected.

really? mike mccarthy disagrees with you. he said that mccoy was " challenged more in his workout than bradford. he had MORE DOWNFIELD DRIVING THROWS."

[Danman]

Watch this and tell me you don't want him a Chief. A 40 yd pass with the flick of a wrist is weak.

Without even watching I can say I don't want the Cheifs to draft this guy, and I want them to draft a QB every year. He's terrible. And don't draft his buddy Shipley either.

[Brock]

If the Chiefs didn't draft one of the other two guys, I'd like to see them draft McCoy at some point.

[MahiMike]

ok, I just read all 7 pages of this interesting thread. My turn to chime in...

IMO, all you guys are stuck on spread vs. non-spread. For the most part, seems like Mecca and crew won't accept any QB that comes out of the spread. Am I right here? What if Claussen came out of the spread?

A good QB prospect needs a quick release, strong arm, good eyes and better brain. Throw in some good footwork (just enough to avoid the rush like Big Ben), and you're done. It doesn't matter what his system was. Forget the stats because as the Chiefs proved last year, 50 drops don't show up on the QB's stats anyways.

The whole 3,5,7 dropback from under center thing is way overrated. If my 11 y/o son can take both shotgun and under the center snaps, I would think any college level QB could do the same.

Quit making it a spread vs. non-spread issue and forget the stats. If a guy has the tangibles I mentioned above, he can be trained to play at the pro level.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

ok, I just read all 7 pages of this interesting thread. My turn to chime in...

IMO, all you guys are stuck on spread vs. non-spread. For the most part, seems like Mecca and crew won't accept any QB that comes out of the spread. Am I right here? What if Claussen came out of the spread?

A good QB prospect needs a quick release, strong arm, good eyes and better brain. Throw in some good footwork (just enough to avoid the rush like Big Ben), and you're done. It doesn't matter what his system was. Forget the stats because as the Chiefs proved last year, 50 drops don't show up on the QB's stats anyways.

The whole 3,5,7 dropback from under center thing is way overrated. If my 11 y/o son can take both shotgun and under the center snaps, I would think any college level QB could do the same.

Quit making it a spread vs. non-spread issue and forget the stats. If a guy has the tangibles I mentioned above, he can be trained to play at the pro level.

Totally agree ! Also All the coaches liked what they saw at his pro day. Outstanding footwork and 58 for 58 passes.

[LaChapelle]

Colt McCoy's theme song
Kermit the Frog's Rainbow Connection

[Chiefnj2]

People like to make a big deal about spread QBs having to learn to take 3, 5 and 7 step drops in the NFL. Has there been a single spread QB who failed because he couldn't learn those drops? It seems like it is a non-issue.

[philfree]

People like to make a big deal about spread QBs having to learn to take 3, 5 and 7 step drops in the NFL. Has there been a single spread QB who failed because he couldn't learn those drops? It seems like it is a non-issue.

The thing with the spread QBs is that they are hard to evaluate as NFL prospects. Some people have turned that into prospects from spread offenses "can't" make the leap to NFL offenses. It's like it's become a law of nature for them.


PhilFree:arrow:

[Coogs]

People like to make a big deal about spread QBs having to learn to take 3, 5 and 7 step drops in the NFL. Has there been a single spread QB who failed because he couldn't learn those drops? It seems like it is a non-issue.

IIRC, it is not so much the issue about the steps themselves, but about reading the defense while those steps are taking place. I could be wrong, but that is the way I remember it anyway.

[Chiefnj2]

IIRC, it is not so much the issue about the steps themselves, but about reading the defense while those steps are taking place. I could be wrong, but that is the way I remember it anyway.

If that is the case, fair enough, say the guy can't read defenses, or will have to learn to read defenses. That's certainly the case with Bradford who had to constantly take cues from the sidelines and didn't appear to have any authority to call anything.

[BigCatDaddy]

The thing with the spread QBs is that they are hard to evaluate as NFL prospects. Some people have turned that into prospects from spread offenses "can't" make the leap to NFL offenses. It's like it's become a law of nature for them.


PhilFree:arrow:

I'm trying to think of 1st round drafted QB's that might be considered from a spread. Brees(close enough), Alex Smith, and I think Rivers ran the spread at NC State but I could be wrong on that, Andre Ware. Anybody remember what Young ran at BYU?

So four spread QB's taken in round 1? There has to be more.

Edit Vince Young would be 5.

[Brock]

Ben.

[BigCatDaddy]

Ben.

Thanks, so we have the following "spread based" QB's taken in round 1 this decade

Alex Smith
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees
Big Ben
Rex Grossman
Vince Young

83% are starters for there teams, 67% are probowlers and 33% superbowl winners already. If I'm wrong here someone let me know. I'm really just curious to see Round 1 picked "spread QB's" do in the NFL.

[DeezNutz]

ok, I just read all 7 pages of this interesting thread. My turn to chime in...

IMO, all you guys are stuck on spread vs. non-spread. For the most part, seems like Mecca and crew won't accept any QB that comes out of the spread. Am I right here? What if Claussen came out of the spread?

A good QB prospect needs a quick release, strong arm, good eyes and better brain. Throw in some good footwork (just enough to avoid the rush like Big Ben), and you're done. It doesn't matter what his system was. Forget the stats because as the Chiefs proved last year, 50 drops don't show up on the QB's stats anyways.

The whole 3,5,7 dropback from under center thing is way overrated. If my 11 y/o son can take both shotgun and under the center snaps, I would think any college level QB could do the same.

Quit making it a spread vs. non-spread issue and forget the stats. If a guy has the tangibles I mentioned above, he can be trained to play at the pro level.

Done? You didn't list the single most important quality: accuracy.

[Chiefnj2]

Thanks, so we have the following "spread based" QB's taken in round 1 this decade

Alex Smith
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees
Big Ben
Rex Grossman

80% are starters for there teams, 60% are probowlers and 40% superbowl winners already. If I'm wrong here someone let me know. I'm really just curious to see Round 1 picked "spread QB's" do in the NFL.

Vince Young, Leftwich, maybe Pennington.

[BigCatDaddy]

Vince Young, Leftwich, maybe Pennington.

I had Young, but wasn't sure what offense Marshall or Tulane ran.

[DeezNutz]

Rivers operated under center, too, at NCSU.

The two notable exceptions to the spread/pro-set debate are Brees and Roethlisberger.

[BigCatDaddy]

Rivers operated under center, too, at NCSU.

The two notable exceptions to the spread/pro-set debate are Brees and Roethlisberger.

Yes and Bradford operatated some from center at OU.

[DeezNutz]

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/04/spread-quarterbacks-in-nfl.html

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

If the spread inflates a QB's stats and causes him to have a fucking rating of 173 and a completion % of 70 then why in the HELL doesn't a pro team run the fucking spread.

This is just dumb !

[BigCatDaddy]

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/04/spread-quarterbacks-in-nfl.html

I don't think any one would argue there is an ajustment, but history tells us if scouts and teams think enough of a spread QB to take him in round 1 then 2 out of 3 times you picked a guy going to the probowl someday.

I haven't ran the numbers, but I would bet round 1 QB's out of a more conventional system are not probowlers 2/3 of the time since 2000.

[Mecca]

If the spread inflates a QB's stats and causes him to have a fucking rating of 173 and a completion % of 70 then why in the HELL doesn't a pro team run the fucking spread.

This is just dumb !

That system would not work the same at the NFL level, if you ran a zone read your QB would die.

[B_Ambuehl]

Nobody mentioned that spread Qbs are unlikely to be as talented to begin with otherwise they wouldn't have signed with a spread team in college.

The top high school QBs as a general rule sign with teams running pro style offenses. USC, Georgia, alabama, Notre Dame etc. use that as a big selling point. "We run a pro style offense which transfers to the NFL so you need to sign here"

Rest assured Pete Carroll, Saban, Mark Richt, Weis all knew or know they could be more dominant and win more football games in college running the spread, but they won't get the same level of offensive recruit particularly QB.

The spread enables teams with shittier offensive talent to compete.

sidenote: Along those lines it's particularly funny watching people like Mark Richt resist the pull of the gimmick schemes year after year after year. All the talent in the world on both sides of the ball. Pro style systems on both sides of the ball, - but no results.

[Chiefnj2]

Nobody mentioned that spread Qbs are unlikely to be as talented to begin with otherwise they wouldn't have signed with a spread team in college.



Not true. It could be about playing time.

[BigCatDaddy]

Not true. It could be about playing time.

Or location of the school since players often like to stay in state.

[buddha]

Mecca, name one NFL team that DOESN'T run the spread at least part of the time. You can't, because they all do it.

Is he a young Drew Brees? He could very well be. As for his size, there have been many more QBs win Super Bowls who are closer to 6' than 6-5. The height thing is a red herring and everybody knows it. You can't be a midget like Flutie, but if you're around 6', that's fine. I'd be more concerned with McCoy's arm strength, but he's probably at least average there.

[Mecca]

It's a decent point, Bradford and McCoy were not highly thought of recruits, while every QB at SC other than Leinart has been.

Also if MahiMike agrees with your take, bad sign.

[Mecca]

Mecca, name one NFL team that DOESN'T run the spread at least part of the time. You can't, because they all do it.

Is he a young Drew Brees? He could very well be. As for his size, there have been many more QBs win Super Bowls who are closer to 6' than 6-5. The height thing is a red herring and everybody knows it. You can't be a midget like Flutie, but if you're around 6', that's fine. I'd be more concerned with McCoy's arm strength, but he's probably at least average there.

What?

If you think every team runs the spread sometimes you have no idea what you are talking about.

[buddha]

That system would not work the same at the NFL level, if you ran a zone read your QB would die.

Yeah...the Wildcat will never work at the NFL level either.

[Mecca]

:facepalm:

It's discussed in this very thread, go back and read Hamas posts before you start saying retarded shit.

[Brock]

It's a decent point, Bradford and McCoy were not highly thought of recruits, while every QB at SC other than Leinart has been.

Also if MahiMike agrees with your take, bad sign.

JD Booty?

[Mecca]

Even Booty was a 5 star recruit and I believe he was the #1 QB his recruiting year, he just never panned out like he was suppose to.

[MahiMike]

It's a decent point, Bradford and McCoy were not highly thought of recruits, while every QB at SC other than Leinart has been.

Also if MahiMike agrees with your take, bad sign.

huh, what happened to "I don't abuse people"?

[Mecca]

You're like CoMo so I can make fun of you for saying stupid shit pretty much...every time you post.

[buddha]

:facepalm:

It's discussed in this very thread, go back and read Hamas posts before you start saying retarded shit.

I waded through this thread and apparently "retarded shit" refers to anything you don't agree with.

All Hamas' posts indicated is that there are many varieties of the spread and most of them have not and very likely will not translate to the NFL. I agree.

However, every team in the NFL (the copy cat league that it is) runs a variant of the spread right now. I don't give a shit if you agree with me or not, it's true. Single back, QB in the shotgun, four wide...that's a spread formation, and it doesn't matter if it's being run at the youth, high school, college or NFL level. It's still the spread.

Saying that Brees is likely the only "spread" QB that will be successful in the NFL makes you sound like one of those old NFL guys who said all of that fancy passing stuff that Sid Gillman ran in the AFL would never catch on. The spread is only increasing in popularity and it's only going to get bigger in the NFL over time.

I don't give a crap whether Colt McCoy makes it in the NFL or not, for what it's worth.

[Nightfyre]

We should exclude probowls as a meaningful accomplishment now since goodell turned it into more of a sham than it already was.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigCatDaddy]

We should exclude probowls as a meaningful accomplishment now since goodell turned it into more of a sham than it already was.
Posted via Mobile Device

That's fine. We can go by the fact that 3 of the last 5 Superbowls were won by a team with a former college spread QB.

[Nightfyre]

That's fine. We can go by the fact that 3 of the last 5 Superbowls were won by a team with a former college spread QB.

I would prefer to use individual performance as the metric rather than super bowl victories, but that's just me.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigCatDaddy]

I would prefer to use individual performance as the metric rather than super bowl victories, but that's just me.
Posted via Mobile Device

LMAO So Superbowls and Probowls are out. What stat would you like to cherry pick? QB Rating?

BOOM!

3 of the top 5 last year

1 Drew Brees, QB NOR 514 363 70.6 4388 8.54 75 34 11 20 109.6 293
2 Brett Favre, QB MIN 531 363 68.4 4202 7.91 63 33 7 34 107.2 263
3 Philip Rivers, QB SDG 486 317 65.2 4254 8.75 81 28 9 25 104.4 266
4 Aaron Rodgers, QB GNB 541 350 64.7 4434 8.20 83 30 7 50 103.2 277
5 Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT 506 337 66.6 4328 8.55 60 26 12 50 100.5 289


This whole don't take a spread QB arguement is looking like a house of cards. For every Alex Smith, oddly the only one the anti-spread guys like to mention, there is a Jamarcus Russell, there is a Ryan Leaf, there is a Tim Couch, there is a David Carr, there is a Joey Harrington.... All of the other "spread" QB's taken in round 1 have been somewhat to extremely successful.

[Nightfyre]

LMAO So Superbowls and Probowls are out. What stat would you like to cherry pick?

Are you trying to argue that the success rate of drafting a spread QB in round 1 isn't pretty damn good and ACTUALLY better then drafting non spread QB's?

I'm not advocating anything. I'm simply stating that if I were to conduct such an analysis, I would not use superbowl victories or probowls. Superbowl victories are not indicative of a qbs skill, in my opinion. And the definition of a probowler changed last year to exclude super bowl players.

If you want to analyze the success of a qb, analyze his success through his statistics. Jmo.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigCatDaddy]

If you want to analyze the success of a qb, analyze his success through his statistics. Jmo.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pssst. Look up :)

[buddha]

BTW, what the first thing that Jon Gruden said he wanted to learn more about while he was away from the NFL? The spread offense. I've heard him say numerous times on the NFL Network that when he returns to the NFL as a coach, he wants to install a version of the spread.

[Nightfyre]

Pssst. Look up :)

Nice start. Now expand to include all qbs who were rookies in the last 15 years. Then map their learning curve. Then draw conclusions based on the large sample based on career long productivity.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigCatDaddy]

Nice start. Now expand to include all qbs who were rookies in the last 15 years. Then map their learning curve. Then draw conclusions based on the large sample based on career long productivity.
Posted via Mobile Device

Sorry, but it's your job to prove me wrong. I've presented plenty of facts to back up the case for Sam Bradford.

If the facts that

3 of the last 5 SB's winners = 1st round Spread
3 of the 5 highest rated passers this year = 1st round Spread
2/3 of 1st Round Spread QB's made the probowl

does not convince you that spread QB's can be successful if they are talented enough to be taken in the first round then I can't help you.

[Mecca]

Yea Gruden also loves Tebow, I think his brain fell out.

[Mecca]

Rivers, Rodgers and Favre are not spread QB's.

So where are you getting 3?

[BigCatDaddy]

Rivers, Rodgers and Favre are not spread QB's.

So where are you getting 3?

Rivers - spent most of his time in the Gun at NC State
Brees
Ben

[DaneMcCloud]

Or location of the school since players often like to stay in state.

What?

Bigtime prospects, especially those prospects that have an NFL future, don't choose a school because of their home state.

LMAO

[Nightfyre]

Sorry, but it's your job to prove me wrong. I've presented plenty of facts to back up the case for Sam Bradford.

If the facts that

3 of the last 5 SB's winners = 1st round Spread
3 of the 5 highest rated passers this year = 1st round Spread
2/3 of 1st Round Spread QB's made the probowl

does not convince you that spread QB's can be successful if they are talented enough to be taken in the first round then I can't help you.

Again, I'm not making an assertion. But to say your analysis is definitive based on a whopping sample size of 5 qbs in one year of their career is laughable.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Mecca]

I'm going to start this at 2000, otherwise the only spread examples are going to be guys like Klingler and Ware who were miserable failures as spread QB's.

2000
18. Chad Pennington, pro style, I'd say somewhat successful.

2001
Michael Vick, Virginia Tech runs a mix of old option and pro style so it wasn't the spread you see today, I'd consider Vick a failure who never developed and is in many ways still the same guy he was when he got drafted.

2002
David Carr, pro style, failure, drafted by the guy who is in the thread header...

Joey Harrington, Oregon at that time was a pro style team and he was also a miserable failure.

Patrick Ramsey, Failure, I'm pretty sure he was a pro style QB but I'm not 100% sure on WTF Tulane was doing at the time.

2003

Carson Palmer, pro style, I'd call him successful

Byron Leftwich, pro style, failure never fixed the throwing mechanics issues

Kyle Boller, pro style, fail

Rex Grossman, I guess I should consider it spread although what Spurrier was doing was more gimmick than real spread offense and he's also a fail

2004

Eli Manning, pro style, successful

Phillip Rivers, Pro style, successful

Ben Roethlisberger, spread, successful

JP Losman, I think Tulane was a spread team at this time but I'm not completely sure, either way fail.

2005

Alex Smith, spread, fail

Aaron Rodgers, pro style, finally a Tedford QB that made it

Jason Campbell, pro style, fail to this point

2006
Vince Young, spread, I'd consider him a fail to this point

Matt Leinart, pro style, fail to this point

Jay Cutler, Pro style, whether he is a success or not is pretty heavily debated..

2007
JaMarcus Russell, pro style, fail

Brady Quinn, pro style, fail to this point

2008

Matt Ryan, pro style, success

Joe Flacco...I have no idea what Delaware runs

2009

Matt Stafford, pro style

Mark Sanchez, pro style


More than anything what this list shows is spread QB's don't get drafted highly very often.

[BigCatDaddy]

Again, I'm not making an assertion. But to say your analysis is definitive based on a whopping sample size of 5 qbs in one year of their career is laughable.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm sure those 3 are around the top 5 QB ratings quite a bit over the last few years, but I'm off work right now so I'll check it out another day.

[Mecca]

Rivers - spent most of his time in the Gun at NC State
Brees
Ben

Being in the gun and playing in a spread system are not the same thing, that's like saying the Patriots run a spread.

Rivers wasn't doing the zone read, or looking at 1 WR or looking at his sideline for audibles.

[DaneMcCloud]

Rivers - spent most of his time in the Gun at NC State
Brees
Ben

Brees was not a successful NFL QB for 5 years. San Diego gave up on him and moved onto Rivers rather quickly. He's the exception, not the rule.

Roethlisberger is in no way, shape or form a "traditional" QB. He takes way too many sacks and holds onto the ball far too long. The main reason why he's successful is because he's such a big, strong dude that it's nearly impossible to stop him for four quarters.

I seriously question his longevity due to his unique playing style.

[Mecca]

I brought that point up earlier, San Diego thought so much of Brees, they drafted another QB top 5.

Brees is the exception to every rule, hes the shortest QB, he came from the spread, his own team gave up on him. It's nice and all but the odds of it happening with another player are slim and none.

[Deberg_1990]

People love to bring up the exceptions to the rule on this board. Its CP tradition.

[BigCatDaddy]

Being in the gun and playing in a spread system are not the same thing, that's like saying the Patriots run a spread.

Rivers wasn't doing the zone read, or looking at 1 WR or looking at his sideline for audibles.

It's was much closer to a spread then a prostyle system. You don't put up 400-500 yard passing games he did out on a pro style offense.

[BigCatDaddy]

Brees was not a successful NFL QB for 5 years. San Diego gave up on him and moved onto Rivers rather quickly. He's the exception, not the rule.

Roethlisberger is in no way, shape or form a "traditional" QB. He takes way too many sacks and holds onto the ball far too long. The main reason why he's successful is because he's such a big, strong dude that it's nearly impossible to stop him for four quarters.

I seriously question his longevity due to his unique playing style.


Because they were worried about his injury. He was pretty good his 4th year in once he got better talent around him.

I agree, but he still came from a spread system none the less.

[BigCatDaddy]

I'm going to start this at 2000, otherwise the only spread examples are going to be guys like Klingler and Ware who were miserable failures as spread QB's.



More than anything what this list shows is spread QB's don't get drafted highly very often.

If you can't Brees like I do since he would be a 1st round pick based on the number of teams today according to you 50% (3 out of 6) of the time the spread guy succeeds and I think I counted 6 for 17 (35%) on the "pro system" guy succeeding. Obviously there have been more pro-style systems then spreads this past decade so you have a larger sample.

The Spread isn't as common and wasn't run nearly as much 5-10 years ago. So yes you aren't going to see the high number of spread guys drafted in the 1st, but when they do get a 1st round grade they succeed as much if not more often the guys from pro-style systems.

[DeezNutz]

when they do get a 1st round grade they succeed as much if not more often the guys from pro-style systems.

The sample size is far too small to make this assertion.

Since 2000, we have Smith, Young, and Roethlisberger. Not even close to being enough to make any valid claims.

What we know, for a fact, is that NFL teams shy away from spread QBs in the first round. I'm guessing the teams make this decision for a reason.

[DaneMcCloud]

The Spread isn't as common and wasn't run nearly as much 5-10 years ago. So yes you aren't going to see the high number of spread guys drafted in the 1st, but when they do get a 1st round grade they succeed as much if not more often the guys from pro-style systems.

Actually, it was. Alex Smith was spread guy, as has everyone out of Florida since Urban Meyer took over.

There are Spread QB's all across the nation that graduate each and every year. The NFL usually ignores all of them until late on Day Two (Day Three, now), if not entirely, because just about everything about them has to be changed: Mechanics, throwing motion, footwork and most importantly, the ability to play under center and read defenses.

Colt McCoy would be Epic Fail at this point in time, not only for his inability to do any of the above but for questions about his toughness during the BCS Championship game as well.

Anyone that would take him with a 5th or higher is a fool. I wouldn't take him at all and as a matter of fact, if you're going to take a project Spread QB, I'd Lefevour because at least he's got the height and legs to play the position.

[buddha]

Alex Smith started playing pretty well toward the end of last season. I would be surprised if he isn't one of the top 10 QBs in the NFL next season. What Singletary did was pretty smart...incorporate some spread concepts into your offense so your hugely paid QB can succeed...and by extension, your team as well. SF's offense was significantly better from that point forward. The same thing happened to Vince Young last year.

I really don't get the hard on against the spread. What about it is so gimmicky? If it makes you a better offense, isn't that the point? If the single wing (er, Wildcat) makes you better, why wouldn't you mix it in? All of this "pro style" rhetoric is nonsense. It just takes the pros longer to adapt.

[DeezNutz]

All of this "pro style" rhetoric is nonsense. It just takes the pros longer to adapt.

No, it doesn't.

We're not talking about a bunch of people behind the current trend or curve. We're talking about entirely different level of athletes (speed, size, strength, etc.) that makes it an entirely different game.

Systems obviously matter when trying to project players.

[DaneMcCloud]

It just takes the pros longer to adapt.

Tell that to Mark Sanchez.

And Matt Ryan.

And Joe Flacco.

[DeezNutz]

I think he means the pro game...that the league is behind the trend and will be moving to the spread.

[Saul Good]

Brees was not a successful NFL QB for 5 years.
That's just not true. He sat his first season. He had a solid, but not spectacular second season. He struggled early in his third season and turned it around in the second part of the year. He was one of the top QBs in the league in 2004 and 2005.

From about the 2.5 year mark on, he was a stud.

[Hammock Parties]

I really don't get the hard on against the spread. What about it is so gimmicky? If it makes you a better offense, isn't that the point? If the single wing (er, Wildcat) makes you better, why wouldn't you mix it in? All of this "pro style" rhetoric is nonsense. It just takes the pros longer to adapt.

It may work for some teams in the regular season.

But it will handicap them in the playoffs against real defenses.

Its kind of like the run and shoot all those years ago. Worked in the regular season. Died out because real teams took the quarterback's head right off in the playoffs and the lack of ability to run the football didn't finish off games.

[DaneMcCloud]

That's just not true. He sat his first season. He had a solid, but not spectacular second season. He struggled early in his third season and turned it around in the second part of the year. He was one of the top QBs in the league in 2004 and 2005.

From about the 2.5 year mark on, he was a stud.

I'm sorry, I don't call 24TD's and 15 INT's a "stud".

He definitely went to the right team and coach in Sean Payton but he struggled for most of his first five years in San Diego, most importantly with consistency.

By the end of 2005, San Diego had seen enough and let him walk.

[Saul Good]

I'm sorry, I don't call 24TD's and 15 INT's a "stud".

He definitely went to the right team and coach in Sean Payton but he struggled for most of his first five years in San Diego, most importantly with consistency.

By the end of 2005, San Diego had seen enough and let him walk.

Here are the 4th and 5th season numbers of two QBs. Who do you think they are? I'll give you a hint. It's pretty obvious.


104.8 RAT 262 COMP 400 ATT 65.5% 3159 YDS 27 TD 7 INT
89.2 RAT 323 COMP 500 ATT 64.6% 3576 YDS 24TD 15INT


82.4 RAT 277 COMP 460 ATT 60.2% 3152 YDS 21TD 15INT
105.5 RAT 312 COMP 478 ATT 65.3% 4009 YDS 34 TD 11 INT

[BigCatDaddy]

The sample size is far too small to make this assertion.

Since 2000, we have Smith, Young, and Roethlisberger. Not even close to being enough to make any valid claims.

What we know, for a fact, is that NFL teams shy away from spread QBs in the first round. I'm guessing the teams make this decision for a reason.

Name 1 spread QB that was graded at a first round pick that teams "shyed" away from. They sure shyed away from Rodgers.

[BigCatDaddy]

Actually, it was. Alex Smith was spread guy, as has everyone out of Florida since Urban Meyer took over.

There are Spread QB's all across the nation that graduate each and every year. The NFL usually ignores all of them until late on Day Two (Day Three, now), if not entirely, because just about everything about them has to be changed: Mechanics, throwing motion, footwork and most importantly, the ability to play under center and read defenses.

Colt McCoy would be Epic Fail at this point in time, not only for his inability to do any of the above but for questions about his toughness during the BCS Championship game as well.

Anyone that would take him with a 5th or higher is a fool. I wouldn't take him at all and as a matter of fact, if you're going to take a project Spread QB, I'd Lefevour because at least he's got the height and legs to play the position.

That's because the guys don't have the ability to play in the league, not because it's the system they are in. I don't think McCoy has it either, but I'm pretty sure Bradford does and because he was in a spread offense is not reason not to draft him.

In fact if you are the Chiefs you draft any QB you can with a 1st round grade. I don't care if it's Sanchez, Clausen, or Bradford and if whoever you takes bust after several years, in the next draft you go get a QB in the first round.

[SAUTO]

im wondering why mecca hasnt responded to my post with mike mccarthys quote.

mecca where did you get the notion that mccoy didnt throw downfield in his workout?
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

Name 1 spread QB that was graded at a first round pick that teams "shyed" away from. They sure shyed away from Rodgers.

This is a facetious argument. Spread QBs typically don't have first-round grades. Thus my statement.

[BigCatDaddy]

Tell that to Mark Sanchez.

And Matt Ryan.

And Joe Flacco.

Mark Sanchez does not belong with the other 2. Maybe next year or in a few years, but he did not play any better then Stafford this year.

[BigCatDaddy]

This is a facetious argument. Spread QBs typically don't have first-round grades. Thus my statement.

BUT if they do then you take the guy if he is there. So you would pass on Sam Bradford at #5 because he comes from the spread?

[DaneMcCloud]

Mark Sanchez does not belong with the other 2. Maybe next year or in a few years, but he did not play any better then Stafford this year.

Gimme a break.

You said that it takes colleges players longer to adapt.

Sanchez certainly played like a rookie at times but his team was in the AFC Championship Game and leading at half. He certainly didn't need time to "adapt" and his play improved as the season went along. He played his best in the playoffs.

Schottenheimer is the only reason they weren't playing in the Super Bowl.

[BigCatDaddy]

Yo guys!

My point is this. If you have a chance at taking a QB in the first round and you don't have a true Franchise QB THEN DO IT. I don't care if he is from a spread offense, wishbone offense, or smash mouth offense. If you seen enough from this guy on film, during workouts, interviews etc... and you think. When given 1st round grades the spread guys hit more often then then prostyle, so it really doesn't matter IMO. If a guy can play he can play.

[BigCatDaddy]

Gimme a break.

You said that it takes colleges players longer to adapt.

Sanchez certainly played like a rookie at times but his team was in the AFC Championship Game and leading at half. He certainly didn't need time to "adapt" and his play improved as the season went along. He played his best in the playoffs.

Schottenheimer is the only reason they weren't playing in the Super Bowl.

I'm not saying Sanchez will suck by any means. The Chiefs should have drafted him if they knew Cassell wasn't the long term answer. But to statistically compare his rookie season to that of the other two is just wrong. He may be better then those 2 down the road for all I know, but he hasn't proven yet. Sanchez's and Stafford's 2009 season numbers are the rule for a rookie QB, the Ryan, Flacco, and Ben are the exception.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'm not saying Sanchez will suck by any means. The Chiefs should have drafted him if they knew Cassell wasn't the long term answer. But to statistically compare his rookie season to that of the other two is just wrong. He may be better then those 2 for all I know, but he hasn't proven yet. Sanchez's 2009 season is the rule for a rookie QB, the other guys are the exception.

Statistics aren't the point.

You said specifically that it takes college QB's more time to adapt, regardless of the system.

I gave you three QB's from the past 2 years who took absolutely NO TIME to adapt.

Do they need to improve? Yes. Do they need to grow? Yes.

But adapt?

No.

They ALL came from Pro-Style offenses, won the starting job and took their teams to the playoffs in YEAR ONE.

[BigCatDaddy]

Statistics aren't the point.

You said specifically that it takes college QB's more time to adapt, regardless of the system.

I gave you three QB's from the past 2 years who took absolutely NO TIME to adapt.

Do they need to improve? Yes. Do they need to grow? Yes.

But adapt?

No.

Statiscts are the point. You can't give Sanchez credit for taking a team with the number 1 defense and running game to the playoffs. Cassell would have done the same thing if not more.

I don't know where you are getting the adaption stuff. There have been 3 QB's in the past 6 years and one of them is not Mark Sanchez. Like said Ben, Ryan and Flacco are the exception if you look at normal numbers for rookie QB's.

Ryan and Ben are a big part of taking there team to the playoffs. Flacco wasn't as a big of part as those 2. They had a great team without Joe, but he still played above expectations especially coming from Delaware.

[SAUTO]

Statistics aren't the point.

You said specifically that it takes college QB's more time to adapt, regardless of the system.

I gave you three QB's from the past 2 years who took absolutely NO TIME to adapt.

Do they need to improve? Yes. Do they need to grow? Yes.

But adapt?

No.

They ALL came from Pro-Style offenses, won the starting job and took their teams to the playoffs in YEAR ONE.

sanchez and flacco had very good defenses as a crutch though.....
Posted via Mobile Device

[SAUTO]

and ryan wasnt near as good in year 2
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigCatDaddy]

sanchez and flacco had very good defenses as a crutch though.....
Posted via Mobile Device

Right Jets #1 this year and the Ravens were #2 last year. The Jet's also lead the league in rushing this year and Baltimore was 4th in 08.

Ryan did have help with Michael Turner running the ball, but their defense sucked in 08.

[Mecca]

NFL teams don't run offenses like that because your QB would get carted off the field and unlike college they don't have 8 more to throw out there.

[Mecca]

BUT if they do then you take the guy if he is there. So you would pass on Sam Bradford at #5 because he comes from the spread?

If 1a and 1b are guy from spread and guy from pro style, pro style guy has a huge advantage.

[BigCatDaddy]

NFL teams don't run offenses like that because your QB would get carted off the field and unlike college they don't have 8 more to throw out there.

What are you talking about?

[BigCatDaddy]

If 1a and 1b are guy from spread and guy from pro style, pro style guy has a huge advantage.

Maybe to you, but the concensus among those that do this for a living seems to be Bradford > Clausen.

Now answer my question. Bradford some how is there at 5, you pull the trigger yes? I know it tears you apart to admit it, but come on man!

[Mecca]

Buddha acting like the NFL not running the spread just means they're behind the times, that is not the reason.

What I pointed out is why.

[Mecca]

Maybe to you, but the concensus seems to be Bradford > Clausen.

Now answer my question. Bradford at 5, you pull the trigger yes?

Who are we picking him between. I personally think Bradford is highly overrated.

[DeezNutz]

BUT if they do then you take the guy if he is there. So you would pass on Sam Bradford at #5 because he comes from the spread?

I haven't been a fan of Bradford because of his body size. In college, he was simply not physically big enough to play in the NFL. Now, at 236 he certainly is, but is this a sustainable weight?

I'll tell you one QB who comes from the spread whom I wish we could draft right now: Gabbert.

He is going to be a more athletic Roethlisberger.

[Mecca]

Personally I think Bradford is about the 10th best player in the draft, but that's just me.

[Saul Good]

Here are the 4th and 5th season numbers of two QBs. Who do you think they are? I'll give you a hint. It's pretty obvious.


104.8 RAT 262 COMP 400 ATT 65.5% 3159 YDS 27 TD 7 INT
89.2 RAT 323 COMP 500 ATT 64.6% 3576 YDS 24TD 15INT


82.4 RAT 277 COMP 460 ATT 60.2% 3152 YDS 21TD 15INT
105.5 RAT 312 COMP 478 ATT 65.3% 4009 YDS 34 TD 11 INT

Drew Brees versus Philip Rivers. It's a freaking mirror. They played on the same team with many of the same players. Rivers is considered one of the top QBs in the league, but Dane labels Brees as someone who was a slow starter.

[BigCatDaddy]

Who are we picking him between. I personally think Bradford is highly overrated.

Let's just say Clausen is gone. You have everyone else.

[BigCatDaddy]

I haven't been a fan of Bradford because of his body size. In college, he was simply not physically big enough to play in the NFL. Now, at 236 he certainly is, but is this a sustainable weight?

I'll tell you one QB who comes from the spread whom I wish we could draft right now: Gabbert.

He is going to be a more athletic Roethlisberger.

So the spread complaints apply to every QB except the ones that play at MU. Got it. That's funny because Hamas said the same thing.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Jesus Christ , I'll be glad when the draft is over.

And Colt McCoy is a Chief !

[BigCatDaddy]

Personally I think Bradford is about the 10th best player in the draft, but that's just me.

So you can get a QB which you think is a top 10 player with the 5th pick in the draft and we obviously could use one. Why not take him?

I'm just playing the percentages and percentages say if you have a 1st round QB starting on your team you are much more likely to be a player in the post season.

[DeezNutz]

So the spread complaints apply to every QB except the ones that play at MU. Got it. That's funny because Hamas said the same thing.

I've probably been the first person on this board to advocate for Gabbert.

And you don't "have" anything because exceptions happen, and Gabbert is enormous and an athletic freak of nature.

I could give two fucks that he attends MU.

[Saul Good]

Personally I think Bradford is about the 10th best player in the draft, but that's just me.

No you don't. You don't think he's one of the 20 best. If scouts were calling him a third rounder, you'd be calling him a third rounder.

[SAUTO]

I've probably been the first person on this board to advocate for Gabbert.

And you don't "have" anything because exceptions happen, and Gabbert is enormous and an athletic freak of nature.

I could give two fucks that he attends MU.

i like gabbert also, does that mean im a mu fan??? nope.
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

Arguing with Mecca about Gabbert and the spread (9/23/09):

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=6103487&highlight=Gabbert#post6103487

[BigCatDaddy]

I've probably been the first person on this board to advocate for Gabbert.

And you don't "have" anything because exceptions happen, and Gabbert is enormous and an athletic freak of nature.

I could give two ****s that he attends MU.

Hamas wasn't too far behind. I know he is a HUGE MU fan, I guess you aren't then?

I have no problem with Bradford so if Gabbert grades out a 1st rounder I would be fine with that. It doesn't matter then the other QB's (Smith and Daniel) in that system couldn't play in the league, but they aren't all the same player. Just like Bradford is not Heupel, White, or Hybl.

[Mecca]

No you don't. You don't think he's one of the 20 best. If scouts were calling him a third rounder, you'd be calling him a third rounder.

I've never been on the Bradford wagon, I just look at him and then when I hear this he's the #1 guy stuff I wonder if some things are just being ignored.

If he does fail people will look back and wonder how things were missed but it always seems to happen, things are ignored to talk themselves into a pick.

Personally I don't think I could use a top 5 pick on a QB with durability and scheme concerns that doesn't have a traditional release point or elite physical gifts.

[Mecca]

Hamas wasn't too far behind. I know he is a HUGE MU fan, I guess you aren't then?

I have no problem with Bradford so if Gabbert grades out a 1st rounder I would be fine with that. It doesn't matter then the other QB's (Smith and Daniel) in that system couldn't play in the league, but they aren't all the same player. Just like Bradford is not Heupel, White, or Hybl.

Now Gabbert is much naturally larger than Bradford is and has a better arm but MU's spread is pure college spread so I'd be wary of making that pick.

[BigCatDaddy]

i like gabbert also, does that mean im a mu fan??? nope.
Posted via Mobile Device

If you have a problem with drafting Bradford and then say would jump on Gabbert I would think that, but I don't think thats your opinion.

[BigCatDaddy]

I've never been on the Bradford wagon, I just look at him and then when I hear this he's the #1 guy stuff I wonder if some things are just being ignored.

If he does fail people will look back and wonder how things were missed but it always seems to happen, things are ignored to talk themselves into a pick.

Personally I don't think I could use a top 5 pick on a QB with durability and scheme concerns that doesn't have a traditional release point or elite physical gifts.

Got it. Mecca would have passed on Bradford at 5.

[DeezNutz]

I've said numerous times that Bradford's accuracy is underrated.

But, I'm sorry, the hit against BYU went a long way toward formulating an opinion that this guy couldn't survive the punishment.

No matter how people try to spin it, that's a hit that happens every Sunday.

[BigCatDaddy]

Now Gabbert is much naturally larger than Bradford is and has a better arm but MU's spread is pure college spread so I'd be wary of making that pick.

6'5 240 is a freak for his age. I like him as an NFL prospect myself. Like Bradford he can learn to adapt.

[BigCatDaddy]

I've said numerous times that Bradford's accuracy is underrated.

But, I'm sorry, the hit against BYU went a long way toward formulating an opinion that this guy couldn't survive the punishment.

No matter how people try to spin it, that's a hit that happens every Sunday.

That's cool, but can you tell me how many starts he missed his first two years? And please don't tell me he wasn't hit hard a few times over a 25 game span.

[Mecca]

If you can't take the hit that Bradford got hurt on against BYU, you're going to miss a ton of games. You either have to be durable enough that it doesn't injure you or know how to properly land.

I'm all for taking QB's high but if I don't believe in the guy I'm not going to pine to draft him. We have a shitass QB, it's not going to help if we get another shitass QB.

Jake Locker is a big prospect, I wouldn't touch him either.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

So the spread complaints apply to every QB except the ones that play at MU. Got it. That's funny because Hamas said the same thing.

If you could get the Bradford spunk out of your eyes, you'd realize that all of the top "Spread" QBs in college have been 6'0"-6'2", weighed about 200 lbs, and had subpar arms.

Not only are they mentally behind, but they have a huge physical gap that can't be seen by looking at the stat lines.

Gabbert is 6'5 240 lbs, runs a 4.6 40 and has one of the strongest arms in college football. He'll have at least 2-3 years of starting experience in a major conference on top of all that, and he doesn't need to take horse steroids to put on weight for the combine.

That's the difference, tard.

[BigCatDaddy]

If you can't take the hit that Bradford got hurt on against BYU, you're going to miss a ton of games. You either have to be durable enough that it doesn't injure you or know how to properly land.

I'm all for taking QB's high but if I don't believe in the guy I'm not going to pine to draft him. We have a shitass QB, it's not going to help if we get another shitass QB.

Jake Locker is a big prospect, I wouldn't touch him either.

The reason he didn't play is because he couldn't throw a damn ball. It's not like he had a sprained ankle and sat out a year. Waaayy too much made over 1 injury in 3 years.

[BigCatDaddy]

If you could get the Bradford spunk out of your eyes, you'd realize that all of the top "Spread" QBs in college have been 6'0"-6'2", weighed about 200 lbs, and had subpar arms.

Not only are they mentally behind, but they have a huge physical gap that can't be seen by looking at the stat lines.

Gabbert is 6'5 240 lbs, runs a 4.6 40 and has one of the strongest arms in college football. He'll have at least 2-3 years of starting experience in a major conference on top of all that, and he doesn't need to take horse steroids to put on weight for the combine.

That's the difference, tard.

Can you show me where I said spread QB's SHOULD be in the 1st round more often?

No, I said if you have one graded out in the first round and you need a QB then you take him regardless. I didn't say reach for a guy because he is in the spread.

[Mecca]

It's a shoulder injury...Jimmy Clausen got the shit knocked out of him about 500 more times than Bradford did, he didn't miss any games.

There's something to be said for being durable, tough and knowing how to land and take a hit.

[SAUTO]

I've said numerous times that Bradford's accuracy is underrated.

But, I'm sorry, the hit against BYU went a long way toward formulating an opinion that this guy couldn't survive the punishment.

No matter how people try to spin it, that's a hit that happens every Sunday.

this is the reason i would be VERY worried about bradford. maybe the only reason. they SAY that the sugery should have made it stronger. Now does anyone remember the last okla player that had shoulder issues that dropped him some??? how has that worked out? just sayin.... and cat daddy, this is for you in response also.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigCatDaddy]

Jamarcus Russell is 6'5 240 lbs, runs a 4.6 40 and has one of the strongest arms in college football. He'll have at least 2-3 years of starting experience in a major conference on top of all that, and he doesn't need to take horse steroids to put on weight for the combine.



FYP

[Mecca]

http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/QB/Sam-Bradford.php

That doesn't sound like the undisputed top guy to me.

[BigCatDaddy]

this is the reason i would be VERY worried about bradford. maybe the only reason. they SAY that the sugery should have made it stronger. Now does anyone remember the last okla player that had shoulder issues that dropped him some??? how has that worked out? just sayin.... and cat daddy, this is for you in response also.
Posted via Mobile Device

Who you talking about? Peterson?

[BigCatDaddy]

http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/QB/Sam-Bradford.php

That doesn't sound like the undisputed top guy to me.

Ahhh, so you want to wager on who is the top guy?

[Mecca]

No one ever questioned Peterson's talent.

With Bradford, he has the durability concerns and he's not an elite talent. We're talking about a guy being jacked up the board because of "intangibles" Clausen's got more talent than Bradford does but because he's a "douche" all of the sudden I'm suppose to believe Bradford is better in every way.

[Mecca]

Ahhh, so you want to wager on who is the top guy?

As far as who's drafted first?

Nah the NFL took Smith over Rodgers, decision makes are stupid at times.

[BigCatDaddy]

As far as who's drafted first?

Nah the NFL took Smith over Rodgers, decision makes are stupid at times.

They also took Manning over Leaf, so sometimes they are not.

[SAUTO]

It's a shoulder injury...Jimmy Clausen got the shit knocked out of him about 500 more times than Bradford did, he didn't miss any games.

There's something to be said for being durable, tough and knowing how to land and take a hit.

come the fuck on man. he got hit and hurt. THEN he tried to come back without sugery and got hurt again IMMEDIATELY. its not like it happened two different times. it was one injury and he rushed it. no one knows that it will be chronic. i also think its silly to talk about landing right because you obviously are either forgetting the hit or leaving that out on purpose. the guy drove him shoulder first on the initial injury
Posted via Mobile Device

[Mecca]

The Rams are not the team I'd trust with that decision lol.

I think Clausen is much safer, more ready to go and has more natural talent to work with. This idea that "oh he's a douche" isn't even substantiated, all of his teammates like him that's all that matters.

[Mecca]

come the fuck on man. he got hit and hurt. THEN he tried to come back without sugery and got hurt again IMMEDIATELY. its not like it happened two different times. it was one injury and he rushed it. no one knows that it will be chronic. i also think its silly to talk about landing right because you obviously are either forgetting the hit or leaving that out on purpose. the guy drove him shoulder first on the initial injury
Posted via Mobile Device

That hit was not brutal or vicious he landed on his shoulder and that was that.

Jimmy Clausen meanwhile got sacked nearly 100 times in his college career and played on torn tendons, but he's the one without the intangibles.

[Reaper16]

I haven't read all this thread but let me take a guess: people are confusing shotgun sets with zone read-based spread sets, aren't they?

[Mecca]

I haven't read all this thread but let me take a guess: people are confusing shotgun sets with zone read-based spread sets, aren't they?

It's happened at least 3 times.

[BigCatDaddy]

The Rams are not the team I'd trust with that decision lol.

I think Clausen is much safer, more ready to go and has more natural talent to work with. This idea that "oh he's a douche" isn't even substantiated, all of his teammates like him that's all that matters.

I like him at 5 if he is there. We need to get a 1st round QB asap. We've passed the last 2 years.

[SAUTO]

No one ever questioned Peterson's talent.

With Bradford, he has the durability concerns and he's not an elite talent. We're talking about a guy being jacked up the board because of "intangibles" Clausen's got more talent than Bradford does but because he's a "douche" all of the sudden I'm suppose to believe Bradford is better in every way.

again come the fuck on man, bradford is classified as an elite talent by all the prognosticators right now.

again peterson went through almost the same thing, how has that worked out???
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigCatDaddy]

I haven't read all this thread but let me take a guess: people are confusing shotgun sets with zone read-based spread sets, aren't they?

Not that I've seen, but it doesn't matter. The arguements made against Bradford are inability to dropback and not being used to not playing in space. I would think the same concerns would apply with QB's that played in shotgun sets.

[Mecca]

If you think anyone ever said Peterson wasn't an elite talent you are high, the arguments against him were, he's injury prone and he's an RB so his career will be short.

That is completely and totally different than saying a QB isn't durable and may not even be an elite talent. I don't think Bradford is an elite talent personally, his upside is Matt Schaub think he's an elite talent?

[SAUTO]

That hit was not brutal or vicious he landed on his shoulder and that was that.

Jimmy Clausen meanwhile got sacked nearly 100 times in his college career and played on torn tendons, but he's the one without the intangibles.

so are you saying that you would bitch if detroit gave us stafford for our number five. you wouldnt take him???
And he was rideen down on the initial hit. ridden down by a d limeman iirc
Posted via Mobile Device

[philfree]

That hit was not brutal or vicious he landed on his shoulder and that was that.

Jimmy Clausen meanwhile got sacked nearly 100 times in his college career and played on torn tendons, but he's the one without the intangibles.

He let(Bradford) his arms get pinned to his side and that exposed his shoulder. To me that is a concern because it looked like he saw the pass rusher and all but froze. I'm not a big Bradford fan because of that. It very well could be a hint that Bradford won't be able to make the adjustment to the NFL offenses and reading Ds ang going through progressions. Can he deliver while he's looking down the gun barrel? I'm not convinced.

PhilFree:arrow:

[Mecca]

Stafford didn't miss games so that analogy doesn't make any sense, not to mention Stafford has elite physical talent.

[Mecca]

It's not so much that I think Bradford is scared to get hit as I don't think his pocket presence is that good and if he gets blind sided he'll probably get hurt because he doesn't have just that ability to avoid injury that some do.

I would hope the Rams are smart enough to not start him right away, he's not ready.

[SAUTO]

If you think anyone ever said Peterson wasn't an elite talent you are high, the arguments against him were, he's injury prone and he's an RB so his career will be short.

That is completely and totally different than saying a QB isn't durable and may not even be an elite talent. I don't think Bradford is an elite talent personally, his upside is Matt Schaub think he's an elite talent?

where did i say anyone said peterson wasnt an elite talent? never said that.

and you might think hes not elite but most talent evaluators seem to disagree with you
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[Mecca]

Awesome, plenty of #1 picks have been scrubs, scouting is a 50/50 business.

So it's not as simple as "hey NFL dude disagee's he's right"

[SAUTO]

Stafford didn't miss games so that analogy doesn't make any sense, not to mention Stafford has elite physical talent.

is that the same stafford who got sacked at the end of the year and hurt his uuuhhhhh shoulder? hell he got hurt so hes out right???
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[Mecca]

Atleast he got injured by an NFL player, guys who get hurt at the college level will very rarely prove to be more durable at the next level.

[SAUTO]

Awesome, plenty of #1 picks have been scrubs, scouting is a 50/50 business.

So it's not as simple as "hey NFL dude disagee's he's right"

again the consensus seems to be that bradford is an elite talent. not just someone here and there, the MAJORITY
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[Mecca]

Well I'm sure they thought JaMarcus had elite talent too, everyone also raved about him having the best pro day ever witnessed also...hrm that's funny.

[SAUTO]

Atleast he got injured by an NFL player, guys who get hurt at the college level will very rarely prove to be more durable at the next level.

you are acting like 1 injury is damning. if he had beem hurt multiple times ig would be different. i worry about his durability but you are taking this WAY too far imo
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[Mecca]

It's the #1 pick, everything should be scrutinized especially when I have to read these stories about Clausen being a douche because he kicked McShay in his fag bag or something.

This is a preference thing, I think Clausen is more likely to be successful on the next level, the NFL somehow thinks Bradford is Matt Ryan.

[SAUTO]

Well I'm sure they thought JaMarcus had elite talent too, everyone also raved about him having the best pro day ever witnessed also...hrm that's funny.

russel divided the scouts iirc. i dont even think the majority had him at 1. and he has about eaten himself out of it
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[SAUTO]

It's the #1 pick, everything should be scrutinized especially when I have to read these stories about Clausen being a douche because he kicked McShay in his fag bag or something.

This is a preference thing, I think Clausen is more likely to be successful on the next level, the NFL somehow thinks Bradford is Matt Ryan.

clausen is the safer pick.. so you fit right in with ghis fanbase right???
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[Mecca]

"Let me give you an example of the other side of it," Mayock said this morning on The Dan Patrick Show. "The best Pro Day I ever saw as a quarterback was JaMarcus Russell. . . . I've never seen a quarterback throw the football like that in my life."

If you like Bradford that's fine, I tend to lean the other way because he has a very considerable bust factor that stares me in the face.

[Mecca]

clausen is the safer pick.. so you fit right in with ghis fanbase right???
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:facepalm:

You are retarded

[philfree]

clausen is the safer pick.. so you fit right in with ghis fanbase right???
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Mecca is a True Fan.


PhilFree:arrow:

[SAUTO]

:facepalm:

You are retarded

wow good one, you are the one who bashes the fan base for wanting to go safe. we have to hear it over and over and over
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[Chiefnj2]

"Let me give you an example of the other side of it," Mayock said this morning on The Dan Patrick Show. "The best Pro Day I ever saw as a quarterback was JaMarcus Russell. . . . I've never seen a quarterback throw the football like that in my life."

If you like Bradford that's fine, I tend to lean the other way because he has a very considerable bust factor that stares me in the face.

Percentage wise, Sanchez had the same bust risk that Bradford has. Inexperienced college QB = bust.

[Mecca]

Pro style system>spread system

Also talking about the safe and bust factors of guys who play the same position is not the same as safe positions. I swear to god some people are so fucking dense.

Eric Berry is an ultra safe prospect, anyone who wants him is also a true fan right?

I called you retarded because frankly want you said is really fucking stupid.

[BigCatDaddy]

Pro style system>spread system



Not according to the numbers you posted earlier.

[Mecca]

There are 2 successful starting QB's in the league from the spread, that's an awesome percentage let me tell ya.

I await someone telling me Vince Young is successful though that'll be hilarious.

The fact that this has actually gone in the direction that the spread doesn't hurt QB development is laughable. It hurts QB development it's an accepted fact.

[Hammock Parties]

Well I'm sure they thought JaMarcus had elite talent too, everyone also raved about him having the best pro day ever witnessed also...hrm that's funny.

You were sucking him off something fierce.