Interesting case to take Dan Williams

[jjchieffan]

The Chiefs Need Williams More Than They Need Berry

Just the other day I told you I thought the Chiefs should take a long, hard look at drafting Dan Williams at the #5 spot. I have been thinking about it more and more and I am growing more and more convinced that acquiring Dan Williams is the most important move the Chiefs could make to improve their defense.
Most people consider taking Dan Williams at #5 a drastic reach. They shouldn’t. It is an outdated idea.
Nose tackle in the 3-4 defense is without a doubt the single most important position. A team has no business running the 3-4 without a proper nose.
When you decide to go with 3 lineman instead of 4, you are asking that big fella in the middle to do the job of two men so that your defense has the advantage of having 3 linebackers instead of 4. The linebackers in a 3-4 can see the field better and have a little bit more time to react. The 3-4 also gives the defense the advantage of choosing who the 4th rusher is going to be on any given play. It puts the offense at a disadvantage because they can’t be sure of where that 4th rusher is going to come from.
The Chiefs ran the 3-4 last year without a real nose tackle in Ron Edwards. He plays hard but he isn’t even that good of a 4-3 guard, let alone a 3-4 nose. He had only 26 tackles last year. He also had difficulty eating up blockers.
When the nose tackle fails to eat up blockers, they get to the second level and swallow up the linebackers and safeties who are rushing in to help. If you watched the Chiefs play last year you saw Williams and Mays constantly getting blocked before they could get to the ball carrier, thus springing running backs for huge gains.
Every good NT that might have hit free agency was either franchised or re-signed this offseason. The Patriots opened up the wallet, something they hardly ever do, to pay Vince Wilfork. Teams are switching to the 3-4 so rapidly these days that pretty soon the trendy thing to do will be to switch to the 4-3. The overwhelming number of teams moving to the 3-4 means that quality players that fit the scheme are going to be harder and harder to come by.
In years past, teams could wait until the 2nd or even 3rd round to find their nose tackle because not very many teams were running a 3-4. That is not the case now. It is time for the NFL and draft experts alike, to stop undervaluing the nose tackle as a potential top 10 pick. Without him, the linebackers and safeties can not do their jobs.
Eric Berry, the player many Chiefs fans want the team to go after this year, may not be so high on the draft boards if it was not for his teammate, Dan Williams. The following is from Toolbox.com:
One of the more experienced players in this year’s draft class, Williams has wrapped up an impressive career at Tennessee and is more than ready to take his game to the next level. The defensive tackle redshirted in Knoxville in 2005 and he was basically a full-time starter ever since the beginning of his sophomore campaign in 2007. Although he was often overshadowed on a defense led by star safety Eric Berry, Williams was arguably the glue to the Volunteer defense over the past several years. He recorded 40 tackles and two sacks as a sophomore and as a junior he was third on the team in tackles for loss and second in quarterback hurries, while making 48 total tackles. As a senior, Williams ranked first on the team with nine tackles for loss and nine quarterback hurries. He recorded 70 total tackles (36 solo), 2.5 sacks, and one fumble recovery.
In addition to racking up his own stats, Williams wreaks havoc in the middle of the line to open things up for guys like Berry, linebacker Rico McCoy, and defensive end Chris Walker. “His numbers don’t necessarily show it as far as sacks, but he’s been a force in the middle,” said former head coach Lane Kiffin during the 2009 season. Added McCoy: “I wouldn’t have as many tackles without playing behind Dan. Dan’s taking up a block or two every play, because he demands that attention.”
I am not giving Dan Williams all the credit for Eric Berry being Eric Berry. By all accounts, Eric Berry is a special player and could be great. If the Chiefs draft him, I would be absolutely thrilled but I will still be very concerned about the defense if they fail to add a good nose tackle. No matter how good Berry is, he won’t be able to make the defensive line penetrate the backfield and he won’t be able to make plays if he is running into blockers before he can get to the ball carrier.
If it is ok to take a LT to protect your QB in the top 5 then taking the best player at the position that is the entire key to your defensive success should be as well.
There are 3 good prospects in this draft at NT and they are Dan Williams, Terrance Cody and Cam Thomas. I would say there is an almost 100% chance both Williams and Cody will be gone before the 2nd round begins and probably a 85% chance Thomas is gone before the Chiefs use their first 2nd round pick. After Thomas there is a significant drop off in talent at the position.
Romeo Crennel attended Dan’s Pro Day himself and Pioli proved last season when he took Tyson Jackson that he isn’t afraid to take the best player available at a position if he thinks it will help his team. Don’t be surprised if the Chiefs take Williams early. I would rather have the Chiefs “reach” for the best guy at his position than have them roll the dice that they might be able to turn some 4th or 5th round pick into the most important player on their defense.
Berry would be great but the Chiefs can probably get a very good safety in the 2nd round. I can’t say the same for nose tackle. Moreover, a 2nd round safety may even exceed expectations if big Dan Williams is up front wearing Red and Gold, swallowing up blockers, stuffing the run and opening up holes for the defenders.
Think of it like this. Which would you rather have? A great safety playing below his potential because of bad defense in front of him or a good safety playing great because of his teammates in front of him are great as well?
I’ll go with #2 every time.

http://arrowheadaddict.com/2010/03/31/the-chiefs-need-williams-more-than-they-need-berry/

[jjchieffan]

I would hate to take him at 5, but if we could drop back a few spots and Take him, that would be pretty sweet.

[Chiefs=Champions]

The thing is you can get a NT later on in the draft. its not like they have to be playmakers. essentially there job is to clog up blockers and with that in mind i dont want to spend a top 5 pick on one... meanwhile its much harder to get a sure fire playmaker like berry later in the draft...

[KCDC]

Thoughtful analysis. You have almost persuaded me not to sigh in disappointment if he is taken at #5.

[Quesadilla Joe]

A premier NT will make everyone on your defense better. Having a beast at NT that can consistently beat double teams and blow up running plays in the backfield is much more important than a safety that relies on the front 7 to be able to make plays. I don't know how good Dan Williams is though. I would draft a Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, or a Haoli Ngata over any position except maybe QB if I was running a 3-4.

Berry without a passrush = a waste.

[DaneMcCloud]

Could you please reformat?

JFC. Who wants to read a gigantic block of shit?

[DaneMcCloud]

Interesting case?

I've been stating the same fucking thing for at least 3 GODDAMN WEEKS, with FAR more analysis and detail.

You're a moron, JJ.

And so is this so-called writer.

[Mecca]

I personally don't think Dan Williams is all that cut out to be a NT in this type of scheme, I think he'd be awesome doing it in say a scheme like Dallas has.

Williams moves really well for his size and can actually make some plays he's not really a space eating type despite being listed as a NT.

I would hope the Chiefs are smart enough to see that if we're trying to run that NE/Crennel 3-4 Williams profiles more like an end than an NT.

Kinda sad dude is basically to athletic for it.

On top of that Berry has been an impact player from day 1, Williams until his senior year was considered an underachiever that lacked motivation.

[salame]

1st round defenders from Tennessee don't seem to make much of an impact their first year in the league


http://broncosbanter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/robert-ayers-56.jpg

[Mecca]

Bad argument son, Berry is from Tennessee also.

And so is Jerod Mayo.

[DaneMcCloud]

I personally don't think Dan Williams is all that cut out to be a NT in this type of scheme, I think he'd be awesome doing it in say a scheme like Dallas has.

Why the Chiefs aren't running the same 3-4 scheme as Dallas is beyond me.

I said it last season and I'll say it again.

:shake:

[DaneMcCloud]

1st round defenders from Tennessee don't seem to make much of an impact their first year in the league




:spock:

[salame]

Bad argument son, Berry is from Tennessee also.

And so is Jerod Mayo.

It wasn't an argument
it was a poke at denver
I forgot to use the sarcasm tags I guess

[Quesadilla Joe]

1st round defenders from Tennessee don't seem to make much of an impact their first year in the league


Picture of player that Mike Mayock said would be the best defensive player from that draft

Ayers will make an impact this year because he will be starting on the other side of Dumervil.

[the Talking Can]

so how does williams compare to raji from last year?


still puzzled, just on position, that we took jackson over raji....though i assume they had concerns about his long term work ethic....or something

[The Bad Guy]

Ayers will make an impact this year because he will be starting on the other side of Dumervil.

By this logic, Mike Vrabel will make a huge impact because he's playing opposite of Tamba Hali.

[Quesadilla Joe]

By this logic, Mike Vrabel will make a huge impact because he's playing opposite of Tamba Hali.

Playing opposite Dumervil will help but that wasn't my point. My point was that he is going to be starting this year. Last year he was only playing special teams and was in the nickle package.

[CoMoChief]

I would fucking be livid as hell if we took him at 5. 15...ok, but not at 5, especially when Berry is sitting there.

[Dave Lane]

I'd go with what the coaches think but I'd really prefer to drop a few slots and get him.

[The Bad Guy]

Playing opposite Dumervil will help but that wasn't my point. My point was that he is going to be starting this year. Last year he was only playing special teams and was in the nickle package.

So he's going to be more productive because he's a starter?

Did you ever think maybe he just sucks and that's why he wasn't starting last year?

[Quesadilla Joe]

So he's going to be more productive because he's a starter?

Did you ever think maybe he just sucks and that's why he wasn't starting last year?

Darcel McBath was a stud when he had to fill in for Renaldo Hill and Brian Dawkins last year and he didn't start. McDaniels wants his rookies to play behind vets before he throws them in there. He doesn't want to shatter a guys confidence and make the young guys bust like the Chiefs did with Albert, Dorsey, and Tyson Jackson.

[Hootie]

Darcel McBath was a stud when he had to fill in for Renaldo Hill and Brian Dawkins last year and he didn't start. McDaniels wants his rookies to play behind vets before he throws them in there. He doesn't want to shatter a guys confidence and make the young guys bust like the Chiefs did with Albert, Dorsey, and Tyson Jackson.

is that why Buckhalter averaged 1.5 yards per carry more than Knowblow?

[Mr. Laz]

i wouldn't mind if we traded back up into the 1st round and Grabbed Dan Williams.


Berry and Williams would make a solid round 1 imo

[DaneMcCloud]

i wouldn't mind if we traded back up into the 1st round and Grabbed Dan Williams.


Berry and Williams would make a solid round 1 imo

Williams is most likely a Top Ten pick.

Do you think the Chiefs would basically give up the rest of their draft to get Williams?

I don't.

[Mr. Laz]

Williams is most likely a Top Ten pick.

Do you think the Chiefs would basically give up the rest of their draft to get Williams?

I don't.
i was think more along the lines of using Glenn Dorsey to move back up.


but if Williams does go in the top 10 then it would be too high for us to jump back up. But if he were to fall into the teens or so then we should consider it.

[The Bad Guy]

Darcel McBath was a stud when he had to fill in for Renaldo Hill and Brian Dawkins last year and he didn't start. McDaniels wants his rookies to play behind vets before he throws them in there. He doesn't want to shatter a guys confidence and make the young guys bust like the Chiefs did with Albert, Dorsey, and Tyson Jackson.

You are probably the worst evaluator of talent I've ever read in my life. The fact that the Chiefs started Albert his rookie year, and he was very good, Dorsey, who was much better his second year, mean absolutely nothing and have no coorelation to your Napoleon head coach has NOTHING to do with Robert Ayers being garbage.

Nice try though.

[BigCatDaddy]

I think Dan Williams is the best pick if both QB's are gone. Although it things get crazy and Detroit takes Okung and Washington takes Clausen then you might have Suh sitting there. I know he doesn't fit the scheme, but it would be tough to pass on that guy.

[Nightfyre]

Darcel McBath was a stud when he had to fill in for Renaldo Hill and Brian Dawkins last year and he didn't start. McDaniels wants his rookies to play behind vets before he throws them in there. He doesn't want to shatter a guys confidence and make the young guys bust like the Chiefs did with Albert, Dorsey, and Tyson Jackson.

You should be renamed knowless.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Nightfyre]

I think Dan Williams is the best pick if both QB's are gone. Although it things get crazy and Detroit takes Okung and Washington takes Clausen then you might have Suh sitting there. I know he doesn't fit the scheme, but it would be tough to pass on that guy.

Stl - bradford
Det - okung
TB - berry
Was - clausen

KC takes Suh or a kings ransom for the pick.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Mecca]

That top 5 has the 2 best players not going top 5, sounds pretty far fetched.

[The Franchise]

The way it's looking right now.......I'm going to guess it falls like this.

Rams - Sam Bradford
Lions - Ndamkong Suh
Bucs - Gerald McCoy
Redskins - Jimmy Clausen
Chiefs - Eric Berry
Seahawks - Russell Okung
Browns - Joe Haden
Raiders - Anthony Davis

[DaneMcCloud]

i was think more along the lines of using Glenn Dorsey to move back up.


but if Williams does go in the top 10 then it would be too high for us to jump back up. But if he were to fall into the teens or so then we should consider it.

It's all speculation but I can't see him falling past Miami. Denver may pass on him because of their recent free agent acquisitions but if the Chiefs DID trade Dorsey, who would line up at RDE? And please don't say Alex Magee, because he only only slightly less awful than TyJack.

FTR, I can't envision any scenario where the Chiefs take Berry. I'll do cartwheels if they do but IMO, it's just not a Pioli-like pick.

[Nightfyre]

That top 5 has the 2 best players not going top 5, sounds pretty far fetched.

???? Suh and berry are in the top 5 in this scenario. I recall a similar scenario just two years ago.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Nightfyre]

The way it's looking right now.......I'm going to guess it falls like this.

Rams - Sam Bradford
Lions - Ndamkong Suh
Bucs - Gerald McCoy
Redskins - Jimmy Clausen
Chiefs - Eric Berry
Seahawks - Russell Okung
Browns - Joe Haden
Raiders - Anthony Davis

I am projecting as follows:

Stl - Bradford
Det - suh
TB - berry
Was - okung
KC - clausen
Sea - mccoy
Cle - haden
Oak - campbell
Buf - trent williams
Jax - bryant
Den - mcclain
Mia - dan williams
Posted via Mobile Device

[Mr. Laz]

It's all speculation but I can't see him falling past Miami. Denver may pass on him because of their recent free agent acquisitions but if the Chiefs DID trade Dorsey, who would line up at RDE? And please don't say Alex Magee, because he only only slightly less awful than TyJack.

FTR, I can't envision any scenario where the Chiefs take Berry. I'll do cartwheels if they do but IMO, it's just not a Pioli-like pick.
Magee would be in the mix ... so would Ron Edwards.

if we traded for Dan Williams then Edwards would slide over because he's not a NT anyway.

OLB Tamba Hali - draft pick(jerry Hughes)
RDE Ron Edwards - Magee
NT Dan Willliams - Shaun Smith
LDE Tyson Jackson - Gilberry
OLB Mike Vrabel - Studebaker

[DaneMcCloud]

Magee would be in the mix ... so would Ron Edwards.

if we traded for Dan Williams then Edwards would slide over because he's not a NT anyway.

OLB Tamba Hali - draft pick(jerry Hughes)
RDE Ron Edwards - Magee
NT Dan Willliams - Shaun Smith
LDE Tyson Jackson - Gilberry
OLB Mike Vrabel - Studebaker

Yeouch.

Then if that were the case (which I can't even imagine would be), they Chiefs would likely be looking at ANOTHER 5 tech with next year's first or second because Magee is not a RDE in ANY scheme.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Magee would be in the mix ... so would Ron Edwards.

if we traded for Dan Williams then Edwards would slide over because he's not a NT anyway.

OLB Tamba Hali - draft pick(jerry Hughes)
RDE Ron Edwards - Magee
NT Dan Willliams - Shaun Smith
LDE Tyson Jackson - Gilberry
OLB Mike Vrabel - Studebaker

That is a shitload of fuck.

[Hammock Parties]

Ron Edwards as a RDE. ROFL

[Mr. Laz]

Ron Edwards as a RDE. ROFL
once again we have to explain to a moron how the 3-4 defense works.

in a 3-4 defense the RDE ends up inside as 2-gap type DT after the ROLB steps up.


so yes ... imo ron edwards is more of a 2-gap DT than he is a NT.


is it what we want? no, our defense line is a mess but until we get completely converted over 3-4 then we make do.

[Mecca]

Ron Edwards fucking sucks...the fact that he's even on the team is a joke.

[notorious]

Ron Edwards ****ing sucks...the fact that he's even on the team shows how much this team sucks.



FYP

[Mr. Laz]

Ron Edwards fucking sucks...the fact that he's even on the team is a joke.
i don't disagree but the reality is that he IS on the team and imo the most natural position for him is the 3-tech DT. The closest thing in a Crennel type 3-4 defense to the 3-tech is the RDE.

90% of the time we move the ROLB up which makes the RDE (sort of) a 3-tech DT.

[Ralphy Boy]

so how does williams compare to raji from last year?


still puzzled, just on position, that we took jackson over raji....though i assume they had concerns about his long term work ethic....or something

If memory serves, Raji had a failed drug test. I'm going to stereotype and say that it's not a good thing to give a bunch of money to a fatass that likes to smoke weed.

I would ****ing be livid as hell if we took him at 5. 15...ok, but not at 5, especially when Berry is sitting there.

You better warm up to the idea then.
We've been talking about this for over a month. (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=6586675&highlight=williams#post6586675)

For the record, I don't necessarily think Williams is worth the #5 pick, but as I've said before, I think we'll pick him and I think he would benefit us more than Berry in the short term. (Seeing as we're ranked 31st against the run and around 22nd against the pass). I don't think he's a better NT than Berry is FS, I just think the NT position is more important in a 3-4. I'd prefer to slide down a few spots and get him but that might not be an option.

There are a couple of scenarios where we could move back and get him and I think both of those scenarios are likely to occur. Berry & Clausen both being there at 5 could allow us to trade back with Cleveland, who I think would like to have Berry and might be willing to trade up for him.

If he's not the guy we want, you take the trade EVEN if there is a slight loss of point value. The point value chart is overrated and not worth much more than the paper its printed on. For evidence of that, just look and see what happens when you go by it, like we must have last year when we didn't trade back and took TJ at 3. Its a reference/starting point. There is still a negotiation that has to take place. If pick 5 is worth 1700 and pick 7 is worth 1500, I don't think you should NOT make the trade just because you only can get a 4th & 5th in return (88+38.5=126.5). That 4th rounder could end up being your starting center for the next 10 years. Either way, don't reach on a player just because you can't get the appropriate value out of your pick. You especially don't fugg up royally and pay a kid way more than he's worth just because you are stuck and can't get "appropriate value" to trade down.

Draft goes as follows
1 STL Bradford
2 DET Suh
3 TAM McCoy
4 WAS Okung
5 CLE Berry (via trade)
6 SEA Trent Williams
7 KC...if Clausen is there and they aren't going to take him anyway, try to swing another trade with Buffalo. BUF takes Clausen
8 OAK Who the f@ck knows, probably someone like Jacoby Ford
9 KC Dan Williams

If we slid back 4 spots and only picked up two 4th round picks, I'd be happy because I believe Williams is the guy they'll pick either way.

In this scenario, I wouldn't be shocked if we called Buffalo and the following occured:
Pioli "Hey Chan, Jimmy is here and we've had a couple of calls about trading down but we wanted to talk to you first. Do you want him? The kid is going to be a stud you know."
Chan "Gee Scott you know I do and you kind of owe me one for having to work for that dickhead last year. How about our 1st, 4th & 5th?"
Pioli "Sounds good Chan, take good care of him, we debated about taking him ourselves but we really need to work on our defense."
Chan "Will do Scott, thanks a million. You're swell."

Chan immediately hangs up the phone and phones in the pick.
Roger Goodell "There has been a trade between Kansas City and Buffalo. With the 9th pick the Buffalo Bills select Dan Williams, Defensive Tackle"

Pioli "Chan you motherf@cker! What the hell?"
Chan "Scott you take good care of Jimmy, I hear he's going to be a stud"

There you have it Clausen fan's, the most likely scenario I can see us drafting Jimmy is because of a screw up.

[Fish]

I'd really like to see what Crennel does with Dorsey for a season before we consider trading him off. He might actually know how to use him...

[lostcause]

While I would have no problem addressing NT at 5... This argument resonates like: Julius Peppers wouldn't be Julius Peppers if he hadn't had Ryan Sims. Seriously, reread the OP, replace Williams with Sims and Peppers with Berry.

[milkman]

I think we'll pick him and I think he would benefit us more than Berry in the short term.

And why are we concerned about the short term?

You take the guy that can be a difference maker for the long term.
You don't pass on long term greatness for short term mediocrity.

We've done short term mediocrity.

[RippedmyFlesh]

If memory serves, Raji had a failed drug test. I'm going to stereotype and say that it's not a good thing to give a bunch of money to a fatass that likes to smoke weed.

Sapp worked out ok for tampa bay.

[Ralphy Boy]

And why are we concerned about the short term?

You take the guy that can be a difference maker for the long term.
You don't pass on long term greatness for short term mediocrity.

We've done short term mediocrity.

Like I said, I think Berry is better but I think we'll draft Williams. NT is more important to running a 3-4 than a safety and Pioli forever tipped his draft hand last year by taking TJ so I think that's the direction we will go. I've just come to accept that Williams will be the pick, but I'd rather have Berry. Nate Allen might be there at 2a, some mocks have him going in the first, and I think he'll be a stud as well.


Sapp worked out ok for tampa bay.

Yes, but he fell in the draft because of his failed drug test. He had been looked at as a possible #1 overall. Its not to say that a light can't come on in the player.

[Crush]

The Chiefs actually need a QB worse than a NT or S. However, since we're stuck with Matt Bono then we better draft Berry.

[Mecca]

That's insulting to Steve Bono.

[milkman]

That's insulting to Steve Bono.

How about Matt Vlassic?

[RustShack]

Dan Williams Dan Williams.. is he that WR from USC?

BOOM

[Chiefshrink]

The thing is you can get a NT later on in the draft. its not like they have to be playmakers. essentially there job is to clog up blockers and with that in mind i dont want to spend a top 5 pick on one... meanwhile its much harder to get a sure fire playmaker like berry later in the draft...

THIS!!!!!!!! Thoroughly agree. Immediate playmaker with the 1st and use your latter picks for need.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'd really like to see what Crennel does with Dorsey for a season before we consider trading him off. He might actually know how to use him...

If we can get a good pick for him, I'd pull the trigger. This is a really deep draft. This team can survive without a stud 5-technique.

I feel like Dorsey is maxing out his potential. He's doing decent, but I don't think he has the upside to be awesome.

I think you can get a solid enough 5-technique in the 3rd or 4th round. Hell, if there was actually serious talk about trading Carriker and a real good pick for Dorsey, I'd take that in a heartbeat too.

I don't think Dorsey is anything close to irreplaceable.

[Ming the Merciless]

That's insulting to Steve Bono.

ROFL

Thats messed up as hell, but funny....