Suns to wear 'Los Suns' jerseys in protest of Arizona immigration law

[Deberg_1990]

Interesting decision....A sports team openly getting involved in a very heated political debate.....






http://www.woai.com/content/sports/spurs/story/Suns-to-wear-Los-Suns-jerseys-in-protest-of/d3Nu1rQNPEusot-KD94EiQ.cspx




The Phoenix Suns will wear "Los Suns" on their jerseys in Game 2 of the Western Conference semifinals on Wednesday night, owner Robert Sarver said, "to honor our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of Arizona, and our nation."

The decision to wear the jerseys on the Cinco de Mayo holiday stems from a law passed by the Arizona Legislature and signed by Gov. Jan Brewer that has drawn widespread criticism from Latino organizations and civil rights groups that say it could lead to racial profiling of Hispanics. President Barack Obama has called the law "misguided."

Sarver, who was born and raised in Tucson, said frustration with the federal government's failure to deal with the illegal immigration issue led to the passage of what he called "a flawed state law."

"However intended, the result of passing the law is that our basic principles of equal rights and protection under the law are being called into question," he said, "and Arizona's already struggling economy will suffer even further setbacks at a time when the state can ill-afford them."

The measure makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally, and it directs local police to question people about their immigration status and demand to see their documents if there is reason to suspect they are illegal.

The controversy surrounding the law has led to picketing at some road games of baseball's Arizona Diamondbacks and a call from the Rev. Jesse Jackson for major league baseball to move next year's All-Star Game from Phoenix.

Sarver came up with the "Los Suns" jersey idea but left it up to the players for the final decision, Suns guard Steve Nash said, and all of them were for it.

"I think it's fantastic," Nash said after Tuesday's practice. "I think the law is very misguided. I think it's, unfortunately, to the detriment of our society and our civil liberties. I think it's very important for us to stand up for things we believe in. As a team and as an organization, we have a lot of love and support for all of our fans. The league is very multicultural. We have players from all over the world, and our Latino community here is very strong and important to us."

Nash was born in South Africa and moved with his parents to Victoria, British Columbia, when he was 1 1/2 years old. He was one of four Canadians to light the torch in the opening ceremony of the Vancouver Olympics this year.

San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich said his team was interested in taking part but couldn't get new "Los Spurs" road jerseys in time for the game.

"It's a wonderful idea," Popovich said. "because it kind of shows what we all should be about. Sure there needs to be a lot of work done, obviously. A lot of administrations have done nothing about the immigration deal and now everybody's paying the price, especially a lot of people in Arizona. That's a bad thing, but the reaction is important, too, and this reaction (the Arizona law), I believe with Mr. Sarver, is inappropriate."

Phoenix general manager Steve Kerr said he and Sarver talked about making the gesture as the team flew home from Portland last week.

"We just felt like it was important," Kerr said. "We're in the public eye and this is obviously a huge issue. We acknowledge there are two sides to the issue and there are a lot of dynamics. It's a difficult thing to sift through and there are going to be differing opinions. But what we're focusing on is we want to celebrate the diversity that exists in our state and the diversity that exists in the NBA, make sure that people understand that we know what's going on and we don't agree with the law itself."

The NBA Players Association released a statement criticizing Arizona's immigration law and praising the Suns for the gesture.

"We applaud the actions of Phoenix Suns players and management and join them in taking a stand against the misguided efforts of Arizona lawmakers," the NBAPA said. "We are consulting with our members and our player leadership to determine the most effective way for our union to continue to voice our opposition to this legislation."

But Kerr said "this isn't a huge political stand as much as it is just a celebration of diversity."

He said the Suns called the NBA for approval "and they were all for it."

Suns coach Alvin Gentry didn't want to comment on Arizona's immigration bill and said he was focused on showing appreciation for the Latino community and Arizona's diversity.

"I'm not trying to duck it," Gentry said. "I don't know enough about it to really comment on it. I would think that if it had anything to do with racial profiling, then obviously as an African-American I would not be for anything that had any hint of racial profiling."

The Suns wore the "Los Suns" jerseys twice in the regular season, and won both games.

"It's going to be great to wear Los Suns," Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire said, "to let the Latin community know that we're behind them 100 percent."

[patteeu]

What a bunch of morons.

Edit: Talking about Sarver and the Suns, not Deberg.

[Bugeater]

The measure makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally, and it directs local police to question people about their immigration status and demand to see their documents if there is reason to suspect they are illegal.
So Arizona is taking measures to actually enforce laws that are already in place? The nerve of them!

[Pitt Gorilla]

So Arizona is taking measures to actually enforce laws that are already in place? The nerve of them!Were laws not being enforced? If no, is this law more likely to be enforced?

[Garcia Bronco]

Just another instances where NBA players prove they are dumber than a bag of hammers. If I were Arizona I would realize I just found a rich tax base to float the illegal removal problem.

[Garcia Bronco]

"However intended, the result of passing the law is that our basic principles of equal rights and protection under the law are being called into question," he said, "and Arizona's already struggling economy will suffer even further setbacks at a time when the state can ill-afford them."


Not if they take 90 percent of your paycheck.

[patteeu]

Were laws not being enforced? If no, is this law more likely to be enforced?

The federal laws were not being enforced. The new state laws authorize state authorities to begin enforcing the same laws that the feds have been ignoring. So, yes, they are now more likely to be enforced, unless the courts strike these state laws down, of course.

[JD10367]

If I'm a Muslim, I expect to be anal-probed whenever I'm in America due to terrorism.

If I'm a Mexican, I expect to be anal-probed whenever I'm in a border state due to illegal immigration.

It's not racial profiling. It's called COMMON FUCKING SENSE.

[JD10367]

"However intended, the result of passing the law is that our basic principles of equal rights and protection under the law are being called into question," he said, "and Arizona's already struggling economy will suffer even further setbacks at a time when the state can ill-afford them."


Not if they take 90 percent of your paycheck.

God, this shit makes my blood boil. "Yeah, they might be illegal, and they might be here illegally... but we should leave them alone 'cause, like, they work and stuff." Fuck off.

And ASKING SOMEONE FOR PROOF OF WHO THEY ARE is NOT BREAKING YOUR RIGHTS!!

And if you're illegal... YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!!

Any time I see a protest about shit like this, with people chanting in their home language and waving their country's flag, on AMERICAN FUCKING SOIL, I wish the immigration trucks would show up and round 'em all up and dump 'em right back where they came from.

[loochy]

God, this shit makes my blood boil. "Yeah, they might be illegal, and they might be here illegally... but we should leave them alone 'cause, like, they work and stuff." Fuck off.

And ASKING SOMEONE FOR PROOF OF WHO THEY ARE is NOT BREAKING YOUR RIGHTS!!

And if you're illegal... YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!!

Any time I see a protest about shit like this, with people chanting in their home language and waving their country's flag, on AMERICAN FUCKING SOIL, I wish the immigration trucks would show up and round 'em all up and dump 'em right back where they came from.

Yeah, I know, right? If you aren't illegal, show your damn driver's license just like the rest of us have to do when we get pulled over. JFC :spock:

If you want to come here legally and contribute, I'm glad to have you here. If you want to sneak over the border and not pay taxes and use our resources, then GTFO.

Oh, and I might wear a "Suns are dumbasses" jersey in protest of the Suns' dumbassery.

[Garcia Bronco]

The federal laws were not being enforced. The new state laws authorize state authorities to begin enforcing the same laws that the feds have been ignoring. So, yes, they are now more likely to be enforced, unless the courts strike these state laws down, of course.

IMO for a court to strike down the entire bill is an act of War. They are telling Arizona they cannot defend themselves.

[DJ's left nut]

Yeah, I know, right? If you aren't illegal, show your damn driver's license just like the rest of us have to do when we get pulled over. JFC :spock:

If you want to come here legally and contribute, I'm glad to have you here. If you want to sneak over the border and not pay taxes and use our resources, then GTFO.

Oh, and I might wear a "Suns are dumbasses" jersey in protest of the Suns' dumbassery.

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

[OmahaChief]

Sports teams should stay out of the politics business. They are going to piss off a lot of their season ticket holders. I highly doubt those which the team is supporting by doing this can make up for the lost revenue if the season ticket holders flush their tickets over this type of thing.

[Old Dog]

God, this shit makes my blood boil. "Yeah, they might be illegal, and they might be here illegally... but we should leave them alone 'cause, like, they work and stuff." Fuck off.

And ASKING SOMEONE FOR PROOF OF WHO THEY ARE is NOT BREAKING YOUR RIGHTS!!

And if you're illegal... YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!!

Any time I see a protest about shit like this, with people chanting in their home language and waving their country's flag, on AMERICAN FUCKING SOIL, I wish the immigration trucks would show up and round 'em all up and dump 'em right back where they came from.

this x 1,0000000000000000000000

[loochy]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

I was under the impression that looking Mexican was not enough for a police to pull someone over. If that was the case, 90% of Arizona would be pulled over. What are some other red flags of "appearing illegal"? I can't really think of any, but just pulling over Mexicany looking folks seems like a rather ineffective approach...

[loochy]

this x 1,0000000000000000000000

Plus one

[Deberg_1990]

What are some other red flags of "appearing illegal"?

If you hang out at Home Depot in the mornings??

[BigChiefFan]

I'm sure they are supporting their target audience...those that can't afford a ticket. The Suns organization is a joke. Their ownership is obviously run by fools. So they support ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR? Fuck Los Dipshits.

[Skyy God]

I was under the impression that looking Mexican was not enough for a police to pull someone over. If that was the case, 90% of Arizona would be pulled over. What are some other red flags of "appearing illegal"? I can't really think of any, but just pulling over Mexicany looking folks seems like a rather ineffective approach...

As passed, the law is pretty broad.

"The proposed law reads that any "lawful contact" made by law enforcement where a "reasonable suspicion" exists that the person is in the country illegally, the law enforcement officer is required to ascertain the immigration status of the person."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/yaki/detail?blogid=68&entry_id=61803

In response to the backlash, they're in the process of amending some of the more unconstitutional/objectionable provisions, including this one.

The NBA has a ton of players from other countries, and I'm in no way surprised that an owner would object to the law. Steve Nash said on PTI yesterday that they asked around the locker room and none of the players objected to wearing the jerseys. Gotta give Nash props for making his opinion known. I have very little respect for MJ and Tiger, given that they are and were soulless automatons who would never take a controversial position in fear of alienating their fans/sponsors.

[loochy]

If you hang out at Home Depot in the mornings??

Hmmm....this makes me think that actually I might have to reconsider my support of this law. If there aren't any illegals, who can I hire to come clean up the brush and grass clippings from my house for $50? :D

[crazycoffey]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

I shouldn't be surprised that we don't see eye to eye on this one either, LOL

I don't think it really allows for showing papers just on the basis of "looking illegal". If so I really misread that part.

The only part I read in it that sounded dangerously close, was making it illegal to pick up illegal immigrants to work. SO - there's the part where race is going to play a PART in the decision of law enforcement following through with the new law. IE - green's law care truck stopping by the corner of little mexico and illegal ave. with 10 men jumping in the back. That those ten men were hispanic only shows "reasonable suspecion" that they may be working for green's law care that day. Since it's now illegal to hire illegal aliens, this may or may not be enough probable cause for the stop. But that's the direction it's headed and that's the debate over racial profiling.

All other parts of the bill are based on things that currently happen, speeding, etc. and not having a driver's license or any thing that would show proof of who you are. You can be held by law enforcement for further investigation, where currently in those situations, the cops couldn't do anything but let them go without their car and a speeding ticket at the worst. Knowing that they are more than likely illegal but couldn't do anything about that.

[CaliforniaChief]

So the Suns are standing up for this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ymYaR1lPEU/S98pznklpGI/AAAAAAAAAMg/YVZeOsjYrYI/s1600/94861002.jpg

[BigChiefFan]

So the Suns are standing up for this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ymYaR1lPEU/S98pznklpGI/AAAAAAAAAMg/YVZeOsjYrYI/s1600/94861002.jpgYep, they are. ROFL Los Dipshits.

[Skyy God]

So the Suns are standing up for this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ymYaR1lPEU/S98pznklpGI/AAAAAAAAAMg/YVZeOsjYrYI/s1600/94861002.jpg

I see your immigrant dumbass and raise you a domestic one.

[patteeu]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

I think you've got it wrong here. "Looking all Mexican and stuff" isn't enough under the Arizona law. Walking out of the desert with a backpack and a canteen along a route commonly used by illegal aliens might be enough, but looking Mexican isn't.

[Bugeater]

So the Suns are standing up for this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ymYaR1lPEU/S98pznklpGI/AAAAAAAAAMg/YVZeOsjYrYI/s1600/94861002.jpg
No way that's real.

[Bwana]

:spock:

[patteeu]

I was under the impression that looking Mexican was not enough for a police to pull someone over. If that was the case, 90% of Arizona would be pulled over. What are some other red flags of "appearing illegal"? I can't really think of any, but just pulling over Mexicany looking folks seems like a rather ineffective approach...

The vast majority of identity checks will occur in conjunction with stops for other reasons which are already well established as valid, like speeding.

[L.A. Chieffan]

thats funyy cuz i call the lakers, "los" lakers all the the time.

los doyers too.

fuck it.

feliz cinco de mayo putas

[L.A. Chieffan]

they should probably wear flair like the jews in germany

[L.A. Chieffan]

that way cops dont have to waste their time and just shoot and ask questions later

[BigChiefFan]

That sign is real. I heard an interview the other day where this protest group said they would KILL with pick axes.

[L.A. Chieffan]

its all about selling tickets man...shit if the suns had to just rely on white people to come to the game they might as well move to boise

[patteeu]

If you hang out at Home Depot in the mornings??

I don't know about Home Depot, but the Arizona law makes it illegal to impede traffic by congregating along public streets looking for work (or to pick up day workers on public streets) so that type of activity gives the cops a valid reason for checking identities in those situations.

Note that this law applies equally to whites, blacks, mexicans, and every other ethnic group you can imagine.

[Garcia Bronco]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

Not in a vechicle. It cannot be a primary offense. Walking on the street is another matter.

[The Franchise]

So the Suns are standing up for this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ymYaR1lPEU/S98pznklpGI/AAAAAAAAAMg/YVZeOsjYrYI/s1600/94861002.jpg

What do we owe them again?

[L.A. Chieffan]

fuck you cant even pick up day laborers anymore?

whos gonna crack my crab legs when red lobster does All-You-Can-Eat crab leg special?

[CaliforniaChief]

What do we owe them again?

A one way ticket out of the country???

[patteeu]

I see your immigrant dumbass and raise you a domestic one.

:spock:

[Bugeater]

That sign is real. I heard an interview the other day where this protest group said they would KILL with pick axes.
It looks too much like something someone whipped up in MS Paint. I'd have to see the same sign in another photo or in a video before I'd believe it was real.

[Frazod]

I wonder how long these dickbags would last if all the rich white Americans who actually BUY TICKETS AND MERCHANDISE boycotted them?

Somehow I doubt if you're going to see many illegals in attendance at tonight's game.

[CaliforniaChief]

It looks too much like something someone whipped up in MS Paint. I'd have to see the same sign in another photo or in a video before I'd believe it was real.

I do not have that, sir...and I understand your skepticism. After all, it's actually written in English.

[DJ's left nut]

I think you've got it wrong here. "Looking all Mexican and stuff" isn't enough under the Arizona law. Walking out of the desert with a backpack and a canteen along a route commonly used by illegal aliens might be enough, but looking Mexican isn't.

Isn't the standard 'reasonable suspicion'?

For the purpose of a Terry search, that's a very low hurdle and while my post was meant somewhat in jest, it's not far from the truth.

[noa]

I'm afraid to travel there because I look a little Canadian and wear my jean jacket everywhere I go.

[Saulbadguy]

DEY TOOK OOOOR JOBS!

[Frazod]

I do not have that, sir...and I understand your skepticism. After all, it's actually written in English.

Reminds me of those signs (and I have no idea if this was real) that some Arab protestors were holding in pictures I saw on the web a couple of years ago. The story was that these douchebags went to an ex-U.S. Army guy to get their anti-American slogans translated into English, and came away with signs that said "We're Morons" and "Bomb Us Next." :D

[noa]

Isn't the standard 'reasonable suspicion'?

For the purpose of a Terry search, that's a very low hurdle and while my post was meant somewhat in jest, it's not far from the truth.

It essentially means a cop has to have a legitimate reason to believe that criminal activity is afoot. It doesn't mean that the activity is more likely criminal than not, just that if there is a reasonable chance that what the cop sees is criminal, and then the cop can stop a person. And once they stop you, they can pat you down for their own personal protection and demand that you identify yourself.

If they don't have reasonable suspicion to stop you (for example if their only reason to stop you is the color of your skin), you can tell them to eff off just like any other person on the planet. Not that I would recommend that course of action, but it's your right.

[DJ's left nut]

Not in a vechicle. It cannot be a primary offense. Walking on the street is another matter.

I think we are actually on the same page here.

I may have been initially unclear as to my meaning, I was using the 'pulled over' example in response to his post (I suppose I could have misled you when I said 'stopped' for appearing illegal; my bad). I didn't think your average illegal could be pulled over while driving.

[vailpass]

The Suns were planning on wearing these unis for Drinko de Mayo well before the law was passed.
They already wore the unis earlier this year.
Other teams wear them too.
Sarver sees other sports teams being threatened with protests and wants to head that off.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Frazod]

Reminds me of those signs (and I have no idea if this was real) that some Arab protestors were holding in pictures I saw on the web a couple of years ago. The story was that these douchebags went to an ex-U.S. Army guy to get their anti-American slogans translated into English, and came away with signs that said "We're Morons" and "Bomb Us Next." :D

I found it. LMAO

[noa]

I think we are actually on the same page here.

I may have been initially unclear as to my meaning, I was using the 'pulled over' example in response to his post (I suppose I could have misled you when I said 'stopped' for appearing illegal; my bad). I didn't think your average illegal could be pulled over while driving.

To be fair, though, pretextual stops are perfectly legal, so a cop could tail someone for as long as they want until they see the most minor of violations. Once that happens, they have a legitimate reason to pull you over, and then they could demand your papers. So their reason for pulling you over can't be the color of your skin, but they could certainly follow you long enough to develop a legitimate reason to pull you over and then check out your immigration status.

[DJ's left nut]

It essentially means a cop has to have a legitimate reason to believe that criminal activity is afoot. It doesn't mean that the activity is more likely criminal than not, just that if there is a reasonable chance that what the cop sees is criminal, and then the cop can stop a person. And once they stop you, they can pat you down for their own personal protection and demand that you identify yourself.

If they don't have reasonable suspicion to stop you (for example if their only reason to stop you is the color of your skin), you can tell them to eff off just like any other person on the planet. Not that I would recommend that course of action, but it's your right.

Yes, that's the standard for a Terry search, now apply it to this law.

If a 'crime' is being an illegal immegrant and they see a guy speaking broken english with dark skin in an area with a large illegal population, couldn't they say that they are now reasonably certain that a crime is being committed (being illegal).

So in essence, the color of your skin there is the reason you were pulled over.

You can't just look at how Terry operates in conjunction with conventional criminal activity. You have to apply it to the illegal activity in question here and recognize that it really does create some concerns.

Ultimately as Illegals they don't have the rights citizens do and they've become such a drain on the economy that the citizens of Arizona have every reason to want something done about this. I wholeheartedly support this law. However, it's folly to simply ignore some real concerns that it presents, you simply have to assign them their due weight. In this case, those concerns are not critical enough to outweight the benefits of the law.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Quick story,

When I was about 10 years old or so, my father and I were rear ended by a truck with a spanish speaking driver. We all got out and surveyed the damage and such. When we attempted to speak to the driver he looked extremely confused and kept shrugging his shoulders. Eventually the sheriff shows up and after a few minutes tells my dad, in front of the driver, "Look, he doesn't have a license or insurance nor can he speak any English. What do you want me to do?" My dad says loud enough for everybody to hear,

"SHOOT HIM."

Just like that like that the driver miraculously found his ability to communicate in English, apologized profusely and offered to pay for the damage all to the bemusement of the officer.

We got his info, and went to his work where his boss promised that he would pay it off, but in the end he skipped back home and never was seen again.

The lesson: Always keep a nice pair of running shoes and a sharpened chainsaw ready to go.

[ModSocks]

That sign is real. I heard an interview the other day where this protest group said they would KILL with pick axes.

It's not real. It's photoshop, and very sad that something like this is getting spread around

4chan.org. /b. They make shit like that all the time dude, mostly about blacks though. Now they're just targeting the protests.

[noa]

Yes, that's the standard for a Terry search, now apply it to this law.

If a 'crime' is being an illegal immegrant and they see a guy speaking broken english with dark skin in an area with a large illegal population, couldn't they say that they are now reasonably certain that a crime is being committed (being illegal).

So in essence, the color of your skin there is the reason you were pulled over.

You can't just look at how Terry operates in conjunction with conventional criminal activity. You have to apply it to the illegal activity in question here and recognize that it really does create some concerns.

Ultimately as Illegals they don't have the rights citizens do and they've become such a drain on the economy that the citizens of Arizona have every reason to want something done about this. I wholeheartedly support this law. However, it's folly to simply ignore some real concerns that it presents, you simply have to assign them their due weight. In this case, those concerns are not critical enough to outweight the benefits of the law.

I'm fairly certain that it's been established that the color of your skin cannot alone constitute reasonable suspicion. And it wouldn't necessarily be any different in this case because while there are many more latino illegal immigrants in Arizona, there could also be illegal Canadians, Japanese, Chinese, Polish, etc. So I doubt that your appearance alone would be enough to constitute reasonable suspicion.

And as far as the impact of the bill, it's true that illegal immigrants don't have the rights of citizens, but you also have to consider the impact this bill may have on people who are born here or who are otherwise here legally. Now if your appearance alone cannot constitute reasonable suspicion, then I doubt they will be negatively impacted much, but if the law results in more harassment or troubles for legal U.S. citizens, then I think it becomes problematic.

[DJ's left nut]

To be fair, though, pretextual stops are perfectly legal, so a cop could tail someone for as long as they want until they see the most minor of violations. Once that happens, they have a legitimate reason to pull you over, and then they could demand your papers. So their reason for pulling you over can't be the color of your skin, but they could certainly follow you long enough to develop a legitimate reason to pull you over and then check out your immigration status.

Absolutely.

But you have to realize that pre-textual stops are very rarely done as happenstance. They usually arise when you have some kind of plan in place well before the target came by. You see them frequently for drug busts where cops have witnesses significant activity in/around a shady area. They're used for missing persons searches as well. They'll occasionally pop up for drunk driving arrests.

Ultimately, they just aren't the big bad boogey man that the ACLU, et al., believed they wouuld be when they were declared Constitutional. Most law enforcement communities simply don't have the time/resources to follow folks around like that without a larger purpose.

[The Franchise]

Can't we just tag them when we send them back to their country? They'll be easier to spot the next time they make it back in again.

:D

[Bob Dole]

Yes, that's the standard for a Terry search, now apply it to this law.

If a 'crime' is being an illegal immegrant and they see a guy speaking broken english with dark skin in an area with a large illegal population, couldn't they say that they are now reasonably certain that a crime is being committed (being illegal).

So in essence, the color of your skin there is the reason you were pulled over.



No. Your broken English in a country that has English as its official language is your reason.

[patteeu]

Isn't the standard 'reasonable suspicion'?

For the purpose of a Terry search, that's a very low hurdle and while my post was meant somewhat in jest, it's not far from the truth.

I think that's the standard. I still don't see a problem. The law explicitly rejects racial profiling as being adequate to meet the standard so there will always have to be something additional. I'm sure that mexican looking people will draw more focus than most, but that's a byproduct of the problem, not unwarranted racial profiling.

[DJ's left nut]

I shouldn't be surprised that we don't see eye to eye on this one either, LOL

I don't think it really allows for showing papers just on the basis of "looking illegal". If so I really misread that part.



Facially, I don't believe that was the intent of the law.

However, as written, applying the reasonable suspicion standard the courts have adopted, that's what it could amount to in practice.

Much like the healthcare legislation, this needs to be looked at for how it will actually run rather than what it says on its face. When you look at how Terry and even Hiibel have been used and interpreted, you'll see that we tend to have a bit of a sliding scale with these kinds of guidelines.

We're not going to end up throwing legal citizens into Mexico because of it or anything. But we will have some people that are legally here that left their license or something at home being detained until a friend can get it to them; just basic annoyances like that. Ultimately I think it's an acceptable hassle, but you can't just ignore that the issue is there.

[ModSocks]

Yes, that's the standard for a Terry search, now apply it to this law.

If a 'crime' is being an illegal immegrant and they see a guy speaking broken english with dark skin in an area with a large illegal population, couldn't they say that they are now reasonably certain that a crime is being committed (being illegal).

So in essence, the color of your skin there is the reason you were pulled over.

You can't just look at how Terry operates in conjunction with conventional criminal activity. You have to apply it to the illegal activity in question here and recognize that it really does create some concerns.

Ultimately as Illegals they don't have the rights citizens do and they've become such a drain on the economy that the citizens of Arizona have every reason to want something done about this. I wholeheartedly support this law. However, it's folly to simply ignore some real concerns that it presents, you simply have to assign them their due weight. In this case, those concerns are not critical enough to outweight the benefits of the law.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The problem is, most people that don't look mexican don't see how this can turn ugly. How this can infringe on someone's rights.

Im not talking about the rights of illegals, I am talking about the rights of someone like myself, who is half Mexican, has the darker mexican complexion, and doesn't even speak a lick of spanish. Someone like myself is now subjected to harassment and having my rights violated essentially because of the color of my skin.

The response I get, "deal with it". Basically, "it's not me, it's you, tough shit for you for looking Mexican". And therein lies the problem. It's ok to infringe on one American's rights, but if we were to racially profile ALL of America, and these proud stars and strips folks dare had there immigration status questioned, we'd have a lot more people up in arms about it.

But, it's not them, so it doesn't matter right? Sorry, you shouldn't have been born that color, now it's your problem. Tough shit, get your rights violated, deal with it.

As a child in CA I was harassed at a bus stop. As a freaking kid! I can only imagine what would happen in AZ.

And lastly, people seem to not understand the difference between being Id'd for being pulled over for speeding, or crossing a boarder vs being harassed for illegal immigration. They are completely different.

[DJ's left nut]

I think that's the standard. I still don't see a problem. The law explicitly rejects racial profiling as being adequate to meet the standard so there will always have to be something additional. I'm sure that mexican looking people will draw more focus than most, but that's a byproduct of the problem, not unwarranted racial profiling.

Now's where I'll probably get branded as a hippy or something, but fortunately most of the folks in this thread know otherwise.

"Racial profiling" is expressly outlawed under the terms of "Terry" as well, but it's absolutely an unspoken element of it. Hell, it might even be considered a subconscious element of it.

Liken it to standard black racism in Mississippi. Are you telling me that the officers in Mississippi aren't more likely to find something suspicious of a black guy is doing it than a white guy? I sat through an evidentiary hearing in Oklahoma with a couple of black defendants. The officer testified that when he pulled into the parking lot of a local restaurant, one of the defendants walked around the corner of the lot and out of his view. When asked if he thought he defendant saw him, the officer said no, but that he believed he was attempting to stay secreted.

The judge decided this was acceptable reasonable suspicion. Really? You think that would've ever made the grade in the cops eyes were it me walking around that corner?

Again -- facially, it is probably not going to be allowed. But just like Terry and just like Hiibel, racial components will absolutely make their way into it.

[ModSocks]

Facially, I don't believe that was the intent of the law.

However, as written, applying the reasonable suspicion standard the courts have adopted, that's what it could amount to in practice.

Much like the healthcare legislation, this needs to be looked at for how it will actually run rather than what it says on its face. When you look at how Terry and even Hiibel have been used and interpreted, you'll see that we tend to have a bit of a sliding scale with these kinds of guidelines.

We're not going to end up throwing legal citizens into Mexico because of it or anything. But we will have some people that are legally here that left their license or something at home being detained until a friend can get it to them; just basic annoyances like that. Ultimately I think it's an acceptable hassle, but you can't just ignore that the issue is there.

This.

But people cant recognize that, or just dont care to.

[patteeu]

We're not going to end up throwing legal citizens into Mexico because of it or anything. But we will have some people that are legally here that left their license or something at home being detained until a friend can get it to them; just basic annoyances like that. Ultimately I think it's an acceptable hassle, but you can't just ignore that the issue is there.

I agree with this. There's definitely that danger.

[vailpass]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.
Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

Not true. Common misconception spread by pro-illegals.

[patteeu]

This.

But people cant recognize that, or just dont care to.

Put me in the "don't care/don't see it as a problem" category.

[DJ's left nut]

I agree with most of what you're saying. The problem is, most people that don't look mexican don't see how this can turn ugly. How this can infringe on someone's rights.

Im not talking about the rights of illegals, I am talking about the rights of someone like myself, who is half Mexican, has the darker mexican complexion, and doesn't even speak a lick of spanish. Someone like myself is now subjected to harassment and having my rights violated essentially because of the color of my skin.

The response I get, "deal with it". Basically, "it's not me, it's you, tough shit for you for looking Mexican". And therein lies the problem. It's ok to infringe on one American's rights, but if we were to racially profile ALL of America, and these proud stars and strips folks dare had there immigration status questioned, we'd have a lot more people up in arms about it.

But, it's not them, so it doesn't matter right? Sorry, you shouldn't have been born that color, now it's your problem. Tough shit, get your rights violated, deal with it.

As a child in CA I was harassed at a bus stop. As a freaking kid! I can only imagine what would happen in AZ.

And lastly, people seem to not understand the difference between being Id'd for being pulled over for speeding, or crossing a boarder vs being harassed for illegal immigration. They are completely different.


I think I addressed a fair amount of this in my post right above yours. Yes, I am fully aware that this will create some problems for those that are here legally.

But I have to ask - what would be an acceptable level of irritation to greatly improve the living conditions of your state and fellow citizens?

I'm sure I'd get questioned in AZ on a fair occasion (brown hair/eyes, dark skin; about 1/4 Jordanian....). But I'd live with it because A) there's an easy solution -- keep my license on me and/or remain levelheaded and articulate with the officer and you'll be fine. and B) It's just something that needs to be done for the good of the constituency.

You can't have an entire demographic that exists independantly of law in an organized society. The illegal population essentially operates outside of our court structure and our tax base. It's a situation that is completely unsustainable and something has to be done about it.

[ModSocks]

I agree with this. There's definitely that danger.

It's real. It will happen. American Citizens will be victimized by this law unjustly. That's what pisses me off so much about it. It's not about the illegals, it's about us Americans not being treated the way other Americans are.

I am not defending the rights of illegal immigrants. I dont think anyone here really is. Id assume most that are boycotting this law are not defending the rights of Illegals, but rather the rights of themselves, Mexican-Americans, born and raised here that will be subjected to a law that others will not.

As a Child, i could only imagine what further actions would have taken place that day had I not had my school ID on me. Would I have been detained? It sure felt like I would've. And what for? Sitting at a bus stop looking Mexican?

Thinking about another situation like that in AZ sickens me.

[DJ's left nut]

Not true. Common misconception spread by pro-illegals.

Yeah, that's me alright.

I've read the law. I've also read dozens of cases throughout the country that interpret the language used by the law in slightly different contexts.

Unlike some, I'm willing to look at how this law will be practically applied. The idealogues on both sides are ignoring it.

[DJ's left nut]

It's real. It will happen. American Citizens will be victimized by this law unjustly. That's what pisses me off so much about it. It's not about the illegals, it's about us Americans not being treated the way other Americans are.

I am not defending the rights of illegal immigrants. I dont think anyone here really is. Id assume most that are boycotting this law are not defending the rights of Illegals, but rather the rights of themselves, Mexican-Americans, born and raised here that will be subjected to a law that others will not.

As a Child, i could only imagine what further actions would have taken place that day had I not had my school ID on me. Would I have been detained? It sure felt like I would've. And what for? Sitting at a bus stop looking Mexican?

Thinking about another situation like that in AZ sickens me.


Slow down there, Turbo.

I'd venture a guess that a VAST majority of the people that are protesting this are protesting it because of the effect on the illegal immigrant population.

Whether they do so under the guise of 'protecting the rights of American citizens' or not is not terribly relevant. The loudest voices opposed to this law are opposed to it because of what it means to illegals.

You are giving the public far too much credit. The impact it would have on legal citizens is far too nuanced to get more than a few dozen people riled up about it. The folks that were storming LA and breaking windows in AZ, those were illegals and their backers throwing a fit because they might be held accountable.

[Duck Dog]

So the Suns are standing up for this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ymYaR1lPEU/S98pznklpGI/AAAAAAAAAMg/YVZeOsjYrYI/s1600/94861002.jpg

JFC. That fucker needs that sign shoved up his ass.

[patteeu]

It's real. It will happen. American Citizens will be victimized by this law unjustly. That's what pisses me off so much about it. It's not about the illegals, it's about us Americans not being treated the way other Americans are.

I am not defending the rights of illegal immigrants. I dont think anyone here really is. Id assume most that are boycotting this law are not defending the rights of Illegals, but rather the rights of themselves, Mexican-Americans, born and raised here that will be subjected to a law that others will not.

As a Child, i could only imagine what further actions would have taken place that day had I not had my school ID on me. Would I have been detained? It sure felt like I would've. And what for? Sitting at a bus stop looking Mexican?

Thinking about another situation like that in AZ sickens me.

This level of "victimization" is really a small price to pay compared to the large problem that illegals are causing. If these protesters are really agitating in favor of legal Americans instead of illegals their energies would be better spent working to get the federal government to tighten up the borders.

[DJ's left nut]

This level of "victimization" is really a small price to pay compared to the large problem that illegals are causing.

While I should probably let Detox say it, I don't think he disagrees with you here.

At the very least, I think he sees this as a valid viewpoint.

His concern is not that some folks believe the reward outweighs the damage, his concern is that some folks believe that there simply is no damage to be done at all.

And on that front, I agree with him. There are true concerns presented by this law. But in my mind, this law is making one damn large omelet for so few eggs broken.

[kaplin42]

agree or disagree with the law, keep your sports out of politics please.

[ModSocks]

I think I addressed a fair amount of this in my post right above yours. Yes, I am fully aware that this will create some problems for those that are here legally.

But I have to ask - what would be an acceptable level of irritation to greatly improve the living conditions of your state and fellow citizens?

I'm sure I'd get questioned in AZ on a fair occasion (brown hair/eyes, dark skin; about 1/4 Jordanian....). But I'd live with it because A) there's an easy solution -- keep my license on me and/or remain levelheaded and articulate with the officer and you'll be fine. and B) It's just something that needs to be done for the good of the constituency.

You can't have an entire demographic that exists independantly of law in an organized society. The illegal population essentially operates outside of our court structure and our tax base. It's a situation that is completely unsustainable and something has to be done about it.

It would depend on how far the cops took it. That's the problem. It can go far. Rights will get violated undeservingly.

Example:

When i was a teenager, a popular hang out spot was under the train tracks. It was also prone to getting tagged a lot by gang members. I was hanging out down there with my GF and the cops came and harassed us thinking that we had tagged up the bridge. I had no ID on me, at the time, I didn't know my social.

So, had this instance occured in in AZ, would I then be subjected to detainment? I could be.

The cause: The tagging on the bridge.

Questioned: Immigration status questioned because of my skin color.

Detained: because I have no ID on me. Unfair? Damn right.

It will happen. This law can go overboard. And it will. We will hear about instances like this happening.

[vailpass]

JFC. That ****er needs that sign shoved up his ass.

If that sign is real, yes, someone needs to make a paleta out of the guy.
It's hard to believe that sign is real.

[vailpass]

It would depend on how far the cops took it. That's the problem. It can go far. Rights will get violated undeservingly.

Example:

When i was a teenager, a popular hang out spot was under the train tracks. It was also prone to getting tagged a lot by gang members. I was hanging out down there with my GF and the cops came and harassed us thinking that we had tagged up the bridge. I had no ID on me, at the time, I didn't know my social.

So, had this instance occured in in AZ, would I then be subjected to detainment? I could be.

The cause: The tagging on the bridge.

Questioned: Immigration status questioned because of my skin color.

Detained: because I have no ID on me. Unfair? Damn right.

It will happen. This law can go overboard. And it will. We will hear about instances like this happening.


In the vicinity of a crime, you have no ID and don't know your own social security number?
It is absolutely fair to detain you.

[kaplin42]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

This is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. People like you are the reason this is such a big deal. It is totally AGAINST THE LAW to do this, it even says so in the bill. Driving while mexican is not cause to be pulled over.

Now, if you are caught stealing, vandilizing, raping, murdering, speeding or what ever law you may be breaking, then the cops are allowed (as they should with anyone) to check on your identity and your citizenship. Just as they do a background check for any other crimes that you might have a warrant for, being in this country is illegal, and thus you are breaking the law if you do not have proper documentation.

Get your facts straight before you spout this ignorant bullshit.

[L.A. Chieffan]

DJ is such a fucking hippy.

Go clean out your berkenstocks you smelly ass hippy DJ

[DJ's left nut]

This is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. People like you are the reason this is such a big deal. It is totally AGAINST THE LAW to do this, it even says so in the bill. Driving while mexican is not cause to be pulled over.

Now, if you are caught stealing, vandilizing, raping, murdering, speeding or what ever law you may be breaking, then the cops are allowed (as they should with anyone) to check on your identity and your citizenship. Just as they do a background check for any other crimes that you might have a warrant for, being in this country is illegal, and thus you are breaking the law if you do not have proper documentation.

Get your facts straight before you spout this ignorant bullshit.

Yeah...you're pretty much an idiot and I've already explained why in this thread.

Unlike you, I can point to caselaw, history and experience to support my side. You have the text of a bill that is admittedly exceptionally broad by even its supporters standards.

There's nothing 'ignorant' about anything I've said here. There's no doubt in my mind that I'm far better versed in the facts here than you are.

Fuck yourself.

[DJ's left nut]

DJ is such a ****ing hippy.

Go clean out your berkenstocks you smelly ass hippy DJ

DAMMIT! I knew this was gonna happen.

But I don't wanna get a haircut...

[kaplin42]

I agree with most of what you're saying. The problem is, most people that don't look mexican don't see how this can turn ugly. How this can infringe on someone's rights.

Im not talking about the rights of illegals, I am talking about the rights of someone like myself, who is half Mexican, has the darker mexican complexion, and doesn't even speak a lick of spanish. Someone like myself is now subjected to harassment and having my rights violated essentially because of the color of my skin.

The response I get, "deal with it". Basically, "it's not me, it's you, tough shit for you for looking Mexican". And therein lies the problem. It's ok to infringe on one American's rights, but if we were to racially profile ALL of America, and these proud stars and strips folks dare had there immigration status questioned, we'd have a lot more people up in arms about it.

But, it's not them, so it doesn't matter right? Sorry, you shouldn't have been born that color, now it's your problem. Tough shit, get your rights violated, deal with it.

As a child in CA I was harassed at a bus stop. As a freaking kid! I can only imagine what would happen in AZ.

And lastly, people seem to not understand the difference between being Id'd for being pulled over for speeding, or crossing a boarder vs being harassed for illegal immigration. They are completely different.

I don't buy this either. If a cop asks you for ID you have your Drivers License / State ID. You cant have either of those if you are an illegal alien. Done and done, no harrasment.

Again, cops aren't just gonna start approaching people cause they have a darker complexion and dark hair. If you get stopped for something else, you have to show your ID anyways, so whats the issue?

[ModSocks]

His concern is not that some folks believe the reward outweighs the damage, his concern is that some folks believe that there simply is no damage to be done at all.


This. Thank you.

[kaplin42]

Yeah...you're pretty much an idiot and I've already explained why in this thread.

Unlike you, I can point to caselaw, history and experience to support my side. You have the text of a bill that is admittedly exceptionally broad by even its supporters standards.

There's nothing 'ignorant' about anything I've said here. There's no doubt in my mind that I'm far better versed in the facts here than you are.

**** yourself.

Dude, they even just added an amendment to this bill to make it explicitly clear that racial profiling is absolutely illegal. DWM will not be tolerated.

I will see your "fuck yourself" and raise you a SDSTFU on the grounds that you have a ton of sand in your vag over an issue that is not anywhere as scandalous as you would like to believe.

[ModSocks]

In the vicinity of a crime, you have no ID and don't know your own social security number?
It is absolutely fair to detain you.

Detain me for my immigration status? That's fair?

A lot of young people dont know their Social. Spin it however you want, but they dont. They dont need to yet. I didn't. My GF didn't. We were not detained because we didn't do anything...however, in AZ we would be subjected to detainment, not because of the crime, but because our STATUS would be in question.

If I were milky white though, would my status be in question? I highly doubt it.

Do you see how this can turn ugly?

[BIG_DADDY]

If they want to alienate a boat load of their fans that's their business. Frankly I am not sure why everyone is all up in Arizona's business. The fans don't need a jersey to tell them the the Suns are lost, we have always known that.

[Lzen]

I agree with most of what you're saying. The problem is, most people that don't look mexican don't see how this can turn ugly. How this can infringe on someone's rights.

Im not talking about the rights of illegals, I am talking about the rights of someone like myself, who is half Mexican, has the darker mexican complexion, and doesn't even speak a lick of spanish. Someone like myself is now subjected to harassment and having my rights violated essentially because of the color of my skin.

The response I get, "deal with it". Basically, "it's not me, it's you, tough shit for you for looking Mexican". And therein lies the problem. It's ok to infringe on one American's rights, but if we were to racially profile ALL of America, and these proud stars and strips folks dare had there immigration status questioned, we'd have a lot more people up in arms about it.

But, it's not them, so it doesn't matter right? Sorry, you shouldn't have been born that color, now it's your problem. Tough shit, get your rights violated, deal with it.

As a child in CA I was harassed at a bus stop. As a freaking kid! I can only imagine what would happen in AZ.

And lastly, people seem to not understand the difference between being Id'd for being pulled over for speeding, or crossing a boarder vs being harassed for illegal immigration. They are completely different.

I understand your concern and that's definitely an issue that concerns me. But what makes you so sure you will get harassed? More than likely, you show them your license and they run it to discover that you're a legal American, they let you go. Big freakin' deal. We all have been pulled over at one point or another.

There is a major problem and it has been spilling over the border. What do you propose they do? The feds haven't done a damn thing about it so AZ decided to force their hands. I can't blame AZ for trying to do something.

[BIG_DADDY]

The funny thing is the main stream media acts like everyone is totally against this. Yea, OK.

[DJ's left nut]

Dude, they even just added an amendment to this bill to make it explicitly clear that racial profiling is absolutely illegal. DWM will not be tolerated.

I will see your "**** yourself" and raise you a SDSTFU on the grounds that you have a ton of sand in your vag over an issue that is not anywhere as scandalous as you would like to believe.

And again -- racial profiling is illegal in Terry searches as well, but it exists.

Nor do I 'have sand in my vag'. I'm in favor of the law, just not ignorant of its consequences.

You're really talking out of your ass here.

[CaliforniaChief]

The funny thing is the main stream media acts like everyone is totally against this. Yea, OK.

And they act like anyone cares what they think too.

[BIG_DADDY]

And they act like anyone cares what they think too.

Maybe they should just permanently change the name of the team to the "Lost Amigo's"

[BIG_DADDY]

Maybe they should just permanently change the name of the team to the "Lost Amigo's"

I am sure we could straighten that out. "Two blocks on the left is your free health care and on the right is your free schooling. We have replaced the green card with your tax free status card. Let us know if you need any more direction"

[ChiefaRoo]

Officially rooting against "Los Suns"

By the way shouldn't it be "Los Sols" or something like that. What's up with this retarted Spanglish crap?

[RedNFeisty]

I don't really see what the problem is, a sports team has a right to voice their opinions as well. Who cares if people outside of Arizona have an issue with it, it is between the team and their fans. I personally say kudos to the Suns.

[Lzen]

I have read every one of DJ's posts in this thread and IMO he has been very thoughtful, fair, and knowledgeable on this topic. Why the criticism?

[CoMoChief]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.

Ever known a black guy that has gotten a DWB? (Driving while black?)

Cops can pull you over for anything. They can say you have a tail light out and just keep you in the car so you have no way of knowing really til you get home and it gives them time to run your shit. And after the cop runs your shit and you're clear, he lets you go. If he says.....oh look you never went to court on an o/s speeding ticket.....guess what? Now you're going to jail.

THIS happens a lot.

[Fish]

Detain me for my immigration status? That's fair?

A lot of young people dont know their Social. Spin it however you want, but they dont. They dont need to yet. I didn't. My GF didn't. We were not detained because we didn't do anything...however, in AZ we would be subjected to detainment, not because of the crime, but because our STATUS would be in question.

If I were milky white though, would my status be in question? I highly doubt it.

Do you see how this can turn ugly?

I think you're making quite a stretch there. Being white doesn't just get you a free pass if you're caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[alpha_omega]

"I think it's fantastic," Nash said after Tuesday's practice. "I think the law is very misguided. I think it's, unfortunately, to the detriment of our society and our civil liberties.

...said the Canadian. The writer should have found someone else to quote.

[ModSocks]

I think you're making quite a stretch there. Being white doesn't just get you a free pass if you're caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Im not talking about being blamed for the Crime, im talking about being detained because of your immigration status. The crime is just reasonable cause to question your status.

See what im getting at?

[RedNFeisty]

Ever known a black guy that has gotten a DWB? (Driving while black?)

Cops can pull you over for anything. They can say you have a tail light out and just keep you in the car so you have no way of knowing really til you get home and it gives them time to run your shit. And after the cop runs your shit and you're clear, he lets you go. If he says.....oh look you never went to court on an o/s speeding ticket.....guess what? Now you're going to jail.

THIS happens a lot.

Then don't do anything wrong to land you in jail, duh! Pay your speeding tickets.

Profiling happens, it is going to happen. It happens to rednecks who appear to snort meth, it happens to black guys who drive nice cars since they must be a drug dealers, they do it to good looking women driving alone, because they might be easy. It has become a part of our society because people want to have a false sense of security.

[Fish]

Im not talking about being blamed for the Crime, im talking about being detained because of your immigration status. The crime is just reasonable cause to question your status.

See what im getting at?

Exactly as it should be. I don't see the problem with that? Regardless of what color you are, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're going to get questioned. There's no profiling involved in that. Why would that be wrong?

[Mr. Laz]

the whole thing is stupid

notice how nobody is disputing the whole "illegal" part they are just making excuse for everyone to ignore it.

1. there are so many illegals immigrants that they shouldn't even be consider illegal

2. i'm latino so i will stand by the other illegal latinos

3. the Illegals work at crappy jobs so everyone should just feel sorry for them and ignore the whole illegal "thing:

4. I will stand behind my latino brethren against racial profiling (think about this one for a sec ROFL )

[BIG_DADDY]

...said the Canadian. The writer should have found someone else to quote.

Nash should be forced to buy his house just over the border so he has to live in constant fear for his life and his families.

[ModSocks]

Ever known a black guy that has gotten a DWB? (Driving while black?)

Cops can pull you over for anything. They can say you have a tail light out and just keep you in the car so you have no way of knowing really til you get home and it gives them time to run your shit. And after the cop runs your shit and you're clear, he lets you go. If he says.....oh look you never went to court on an o/s speeding ticket.....guess what? Now you're going to jail.

THIS happens a lot.

it does happen a lot. But I think that's what DJ is saying, not arguing against. Shit like this will happen in AZ, and it would be foolish to think otherwise. It all ready happens.

Just a few years ago, when i first bought this 97 Red Honda Accord, I was pulled over 3 times within the first month of owning it while I waited for my plates to come in. I had the temp reg in the rear window, but that wasn't good enough apparently. I kept getting pulled over. On one instance the cop actually told me that the only reason he pulled me over was because that car make and model has a high probability of being stolen. That's it.

Obviously, those instances were nothing to be up in arms about, but they still only pulled me over because they were suspicious and nothing else. So they can find reasons to pull you over. no doubt.

[btlook1]

God, this shit makes my blood boil. "Yeah, they might be illegal, and they might be here illegally... but we should leave them alone 'cause, like, they work and stuff." **** off.

And ASKING SOMEONE FOR PROOF OF WHO THEY ARE is NOT BREAKING YOUR RIGHTS!!

And if you're illegal... YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!!

Any time I see a protest about shit like this, with people chanting in their home language and waving their country's flag, on AMERICAN ****ING SOIL, I wish the immigration trucks would show up and round 'em all up and dump 'em right back where they came from.

Well said JD....I agree 100% with you!!!!

[vailpass]

Detain me for my immigration status? That's fair?

A lot of young people dont know their Social. Spin it however you want, but they dont. They dont need to yet. I didn't. My GF didn't. We were not detained because we didn't do anything...however, in AZ we would be subjected to detainment, not because of the crime, but because our STATUS would be in question.

If I were milky white though, would my status be in question? I highly doubt it.

Do you see how this can turn ugly?

If I am being questioned for a crime and cannot produce ID and don't even know my own ss# I will be held. I would fully expect to be held. When my identifty can be verified by my parents, spouse, attorney, etc. etc. etc.
This is the law of the land.

[ModSocks]

Exactly as it should be. I don't see the problem with that? Regardless of what color you are, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're going to get questioned. There's no profiling involved in that. Why would that be wrong?

I think you are still missing my point. It's not about the crime, it's about being detained if you dont have your ID on you. Not everyone is going to walk around with their ID on you. especially not teenagers, a lot of them don't even have state Id's.

If this person were white or black, would they be less likely to be detained if they did not have identification on them? Yes, they would. That's the problem. People will not be treated equally here.

Im not saying all instances will be like this, but it's pretty easy to see how it can be abused and get like this.

[vailpass]

Im not talking about being blamed for the Crime, im talking about being detained because of your immigration status. The crime is just reasonable cause to question your status.
See what im getting at?

So what's the problem?

[vailpass]

I think you are still missing my point. It's not about the crime, it's about being detained if you dont have your ID on you. Not everyone is going to walk around with their ID on you. especially not teenagers, a lot of them don't even have state Id's.

If this person were white or black, would they be less likely to be detained if they did not have identification on them? Yes, they would. That's the problem. People will not be treated equally here.

Im not saying all instances will be like this, but it's pretty easy to see how it can be abused and get like this.

Then carry your ID. If you are legal you have no worries. I was pulled over last month for driving single in the HOV lane and was asked to produce ID, registration and insurance.
No problem.
I'm glad they do that.
Why do you want to tie the hands of our police officers?

[chiefsnorth]

good marketing move.

the people who support the bill - regular vanilla arizona residents won't throw a fit about it. they dont need to be pandered to - they will just say, I am a fan of the team, i support them even if i don' agree with the owners' politics.

however the other side does not seem capable of making any distinctions between the two. pandering to them would probably get a lot of people to show up, if only for one night.

i think it's that sort of simple mindedness that dictates which side you as a business need to position yourself on.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Fish]

I think you are still missing my point. It's not about the crime, it's about being detained if you dont have your ID on you. Not everyone is going to walk around with their ID on you. especially not teenagers, a lot of them don't even have state Id's.

If this person were white or black, would they be less likely to be detained if they did not have identification on them? Yes, they would. That's the problem. People will not be treated equally here.

Im not saying all instances will be like this, but it's pretty easy to see how it can be abused and get like this.

Yes I'm missing your point. You should be detained if you don't have ID in a possible crime situation. Not everyone is going to carry their ID? Well those dipshits have no right to complain about being detained then when they find themselves in a criminal situation. It's really that simple. And saying blacks or whites are less likely to be detained is pretty laughable. Legal US citizens carrying ID will be treated as equally as possible.

[ModSocks]

If I am being questioned for a crime and cannot produce ID and don't even know my own ss# I will be held. I would fully expect to be held. When my identifty can be verified by my parents, spouse, attorney, etc. etc. etc.
This is the law of the land.

They dont detain you for a crime w/o reason to believe you actually committed the crime. They're not going to arrest people for standing in front of a tagged wall. That's silly, especially with no evidence. Hence the reason i was merely questioned, and that's it.

you come from a much different background and have had very different expeirences and it's pretty obvious we'll never see eye to eye. You view the law and world as something that it's really not. It's kinda sad.

In your world, all of this works to perfection and it's all justified. In the real world, with real cops, it's not that simple.

[ModSocks]

Legal US citizens carrying ID will be treated as equally as possible.

Go ahead and think that. THAT is laughable.

[vailpass]

They dont detain you for a crime w/o reason to believe you actually committed the crime. They're not going to arrest people for standing in front of a tagged wall. That's silly, especially with no evidence. Hence the reason i was merely questioned, and that's it.

you come from a much different background and have had very different expeirences and it's pretty obvious we'll never see eye to eye. You view the law and world as something that it's really not. It's kinda sad.

In your world, all of this works to perfection and it's all justified. In the real world, with real cops, it's not that simple.

I view the law as exactly what it is: a partner in my community that stands between my family and the bad guys. A thankless public servant who puts it on the line every day against scumbags and killers and law breakers who have no concept of how to function in a decent society.
I support law enforcement, my family supports them. They are a necessary part of a civilized society.

You view the law as an enemy. Now whose view is sad?

[patteeu]

agree or disagree with the law, keep your sports out of politics please.

The NBA needs a sub-forum!

[kcxiv]

ya, lets send some of race back, then maybe other people will ****ing pick their own fruits, veggies and cut their own grass.

Ya, that will ughh never happen.

ughh, taht reminds me, its almost that time for work.

[ModSocks]

I view the law as exactly what it is: a partner in my community that stands between my family and the bad guys. A thankless public servant who puts it on the line every day against scumbags and killers and law breakers who have no concept of how to function in a decent society.
I support law enforcement, my family supports them. They are a necessary part of a civilized society.

You view the law as an enemy. Now whose view is sad?

I view the law as the enemy? LMAO. No.

I've seen the "law" act as both defenders and antagonists. If you think they all abide by the law they are suppose to serve, then we have nothing further to discuss.

If you think there are no "bad cops" out there....then I wish i could live in the world that you do.

[Mr. Laz]

hey ... if the police get a report that a handsome stud with strawberry blond hair and a huge schlong just robbed a Bank then i would expect the police to "profile me" and stop me for questioning.


i'm prepared to carry that burden, so should everyone else. :harumph:

[patteeu]

Personally, I'm in favor of sensible profiling, including racial profiling.

[Mr. Laz]

hehe

----------------------------------------------
JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THIS...

YOU PASS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YRS HARD LABOR

YOU PASS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET SHOT.

YOU PASS THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ...A DOCUMENT.

WE CARRY PASSPORTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR FACE JAIL TIME.
--------------------------------------------------

[Otter]

hehe

----------------------------------------------
JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THIS...

YOU PASS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YRS HARD LABOR

YOU PASS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET SHOT.

YOU PASS THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ...A DOCUMENT.

WE CARRY PASSPORTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR FACE JAIL TIME.
--------------------------------------------------

Want to see something ever more funny/ironic? Look up Mexico's laws on illegal immigration. They're draconian yet they preach tolerance and acceptance when we try to stop the stream, no ****ing river, of the illegals pouring into our border.

Also, 12 more states are proposing the SB1070 bill into law. It's about time. If you want to be mad at somebody, be mad at the 15 MILLION plus illegals flowing across the border that has big signs and fences up saying "DO NOT ENTER".

http://www.mmdnewswire.com/alipac-8295.html

[DJ's left nut]

Ever known a black guy that has gotten a DWB? (Driving while black?)

Cops can pull you over for anything. They can say you have a tail light out and just keep you in the car so you have no way of knowing really til you get home and it gives them time to run your shit. And after the cop runs your shit and you're clear, he lets you go. If he says.....oh look you never went to court on an o/s speeding ticket.....guess what? Now you're going to jail.

THIS happens a lot.

Oh c'mon, you know better.

I live in Columbia, Mo.

Of COURSE I've seen a DWB. Shit, they damn near go so far as to put it on the tickets anymore.

As you well know, CPD is a bunch of bigoted douchebags.

[vailpass]

I view the law as the enemy? LMAO. No.

I've seen the "law" act as both defenders and antagonists. If you think they all abide by the law they are suppose to serve, then we have nothing further to discuss.

If you think there are no "bad cops" out there....then I wish i could live in the world that you do.

Of course there are bad cops. You advocate structuring the law around the bad cops (vast minority) whereas I am in favor of structuring the law around the good cops (VAST majority).
I believe in our system and our society of law enforcement.

[Lzen]

Interesting debate and relevant to this thread. Put aside your O'Reilly hate and just listen to both sides of this and you may gain something from this.

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=4179199&w=400&h=249"></script><noscript>Watch the latest news video at <a href="http://video.foxnews.com/">video.foxnews.com</a></noscript>

[Bugeater]

The funny thing is the main stream media acts like everyone is totally against this. Yea, OK.
That's because that is what fits msm's agenda.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Interesting timing...

NSFW



<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MKhChMHhBN8&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MKhChMHhBN8&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

[DJ's left nut]

Is this NSFW for boobs or language.

I need to know if it's worth watching when I get home...

[KChiefs1]

So the Suns are standing up for this?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ymYaR1lPEU/S98pznklpGI/AAAAAAAAAMg/YVZeOsjYrYI/s1600/94861002.jpg

Does that guy really think that sign is going to convince people to his side?ROFL

[KCrockaholic]

If America owes anyone anything, it's the Native Americans that we stole our land from.

[ModSocks]

Does that guy really think that sign is going to convince people to his side?ROFL

I need everyone to repeat after me, all together now. Ready?

1

2

3

PHOTOSHOP!

[ChiefaRoo]

Nash should be forced to buy his house just over the border so he has to live in constant fear for his life and his families.

Nash is a dumbfuck Canadian. His opinion isn't worth JACK SQUAT!

[vailpass]

If America owes anyone anything, it's the Native Americans that we stole our land from.

Shoulda' fought harder.

[KCrockaholic]

Shoulda' fought harder.

The Native Americans didn't believe in "owning" land. They compared it to owning a piece of the sky. So we came in a took it over and made them all slaves. African Americans have nothing to bitch about when you compare what we did to the Native Americans.

[vailpass]

The Native Americans didn't believe in "owning" land. They compared it to owning a piece of the sky. So we came in a took it over and made them all slaves. African Americans have nothing to bitch about when you compare what we did to the Native Americans.

I was not being serious. Not all tribes share the view of land ownership you describe, not all were peaceful however there is no question there are MANY philosophies of the native from which we could benefit.

I told this in another forum but its pretty funny.
In the gym last week I saw a 60-somehting year old Native American wearing a t-shirt with a picture of 4 old-school natives sitting horseback with Winchester rifles.
Caption: Homeland Security, Fighting Terrorists Since 1492

[KCrockaholic]

I was not being serious. Not all tribes share the view of land ownership you describe, not all were peaceful however there is no question there are MANY philosophies of the native from which we could benefit.

I told this in another forum but its pretty funny.
In the gym last week I saw a 60-somehting year old Native American wearing a t-shirt with a picture of 4 old-school natives sitting horseback with Winchester rifles.
Caption: Homeland Security, Fighting Terrorists Since 1492

lol. I know you weren't being serious. I was just stating what I know.

[vailpass]

lol. I know you weren't being serious. I was just stating what I know.

If we didn't take over the land from the Natives someone else would have. Theirs was a society not destined to hold onto a territory as vast as the US.

[The_Doctor10]

Nash is a dumb**** Canadian. His opinion isn't worth JACK SQUAT!

Gotta love that whole 'freedom of speech' thing in America, eh? But only if you're a born and raised one, not a resident alien here legally.

[KCrockaholic]

If we didn't take over the land from the Natives someone else would have. Theirs was a society not destined to hold onto a territory as vast as the US.

True, but it was still fucked up.

The way we treated them after we took over their land was the worst part though.

[vailpass]

Gotta love that whole 'freedom of speech' thing in America, eh? But only if you're a born and raised one, not a resident alien here legally.

So it's okay for Nash to make comments but not okay for ChiefaRoo to make comments about Nash's comments?

[vailpass]

True, but it was still ****ed up.

The way we treated them after we took over their land was the worst part though.

Yeah that whole blanket party thing is nothing to be proud of. Nation building is not always a finesse operation.

[The_Doctor10]

So it's okay for Nash to make comments but not okay for ChiefaRoo to make comments about Nash's comments?

I have no idea what the guy said, or what Nash said. I was just commenting on 'Nash is a dumbass Canadian, his opinions don't count for ****'.

Why wouldn't it be okay for both sides to comment, as opposed to just the side that one happens to be for?

[vailpass]

I have no idea what the guy said, or what Nash said. I was just commenting on 'Nash is a dumbass Canadian, his opinions don't count for ****'.

Why wouldn't it be okay for both sides to comment, as opposed to just the side that one happens to be for?

We're not the Judean People's Front. We are the People's Front of Judea.
Splitter!!!!!!

[OnTheWarpath15]

Is this NSFW for boobs or language.

I need to know if it's worth watching when I get home...

Language.

[ChiefaRoo]

Gotta love that whole 'freedom of speech' thing in America, eh? But only if you're a born and raised one, not a resident alien here legally.

You guys don't have the same freedom of speech laws that we do. Often times when someone says anything controversial in Canada these days your overly PC culture calls it hate speech and shuts it down. I like Canada and find most Canadians to be good people but don't get on your high horse. Just pay your GST/VAT tax and STFU and STFD and enjoy your socialist lite (but friendly) country.

[ChiefaRoo]

So it's okay for Nash to make comments but not okay for ChiefaRoo to make comments about Nash's comments?

Nash is a Hollywood liberal asslicker. Although I might be one too if that's what it would of taken to get into Elizabeth Hurley's pants back in the 90's like he did.

Seriously though. He's entitled to his opinion and he's entitled to hear Arizona's opinion. They're saying enough.

[vailpass]

Nash is a Hollywood liberal asslicker. Although I might be one too if that's what it would of taken to get into Elizabeth Hurley's pants back in the 90's like he did.

Seriously though. He's entitled to his opinion and he's entitled to hear Arizona's opinion. They're saying enough.

As far as political views go I like athletes to talk about sports and actors to talk about whatever the **** it is they do.

[Terribilis]

http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate (http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate)

<script type="text/javascript"> digg_url = 'http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate'; digg_title = 'The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate'; digg_window = 'new'; </script> http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/diggthis.png (http://digg.com/submit?url=http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate&title=The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20ce rtificate&bodytext=A+Latino+truck+driver+outside+Phoenix+was+taken+into+custody+by+law+enforcement+at+a+weigh+ station.+He+pulled+in+to+have+the+truck+looked+at%2C+was+apparently+approached+by+Immigration+and+Cu stoms+Enforcement+agents+and+asked+for+ID.+He+showed+them+his+commercial+driver%E2%80%99s+license.+T hey+asked+him+for+more+ID.+He+told+them+%5B...%5D&media=news&topic=politics) http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/tweetthis.png (http://twitter.com/home?status=RT%20@COindependent%20-%20The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20certi ficate%C2%A0%20http://bit.ly/949d4L) By John Tomasic (http://coloradoindependent.com/author/johntomasic/) 4/26/10 7:00 AM
A Latino truck driver outside Phoenix was taken into custody by law enforcement at a weigh station. He pulled in to have the truck looked at, was apparently approached by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The truckdiver is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA.
The ICE agents said this was all just standard procedure. But the agents might just as well have been local police or highway patrol, who are now required by the controversial law Gov. Jan Brewer signed Friday (http://coloradoindependent.com/51976/arizona-gov-brewer-signs-harsh-immigration-laws-into-effect) to follow the same “standard procedure” and question individuals about their immigration status during routine stops. Welcome to the new Arizona, where there are sure to be whole websites dedicated to these kind of stories soon.

The original report from an Arizona KTVK TV news / website (http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html): http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210-200x115.png (http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210.png)
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He’s legit. It’s the first time it’s ever happened.”
Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.
Jackie says, “It doesn’t feel like it’s a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”
A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.
Arizona now has the toughest immigration-related laws in the country, making it a state crime to be in the country without the proper visa. The new law has raised howls from civil rights groups for putting the onus on local police to enforce laws tougher than federal immigration statutes. Immigration and rights activists argue the law is a misguided reaction (http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/arizona-immigration-law-threatens-civil-rights-and-public-safety-says-aclu) to admittedly major security and trafficking problems on the border (http://coloradoindependent.com/50506/tancredo-calls-on-napolitano-to-resign-in-wake-of-rancher-murder). They say the new state law is an unconstitutional and anti-American recipe for racial profiling abuses that will create divisions and heighten the reluctance of Latino community members to seek police assistance even for everyday matters of security and law enforcement.

[Terribilis]

peaking at a Tama County Republican forum Monday, six candidates for the GOP nomination to face seven –term Democratic Rep. Leonard Boswell opposed amnesty for illegal aliens and called for tougher enforcement of border security.“I think we should catch ’em, we should document ’em, make sure we know where they are and where they are going,” said Pat Bertroche, an Urbandale physician. “I actually support micro-chipping them. I can micro-chip my dog so I can find it. Why can’t I micro-chip an illegal?
“That’s not a popular thing to say, but it’s a lot cheaper than building a fence they can tunnel under,” Bertroche said.

[kstater]

http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate (http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate)


Well, I certainly didn't see this coming.

[ChiefaRoo]

http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate (http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate)

<script type="text/javascript"> digg_url = 'http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate'; digg_title = 'The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate'; digg_window = 'new'; </script> http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/diggthis.png (http://digg.com/submit?url=http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate&title=The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20ce rtificate&bodytext=A+Latino+truck+driver+outside+Phoenix+was+taken+into+custody+by+law+enforcement+at+a+weigh+ station.+He+pulled+in+to+have+the+truck+looked+at%2C+was+apparently+approached+by+Immigration+and+Cu stoms+Enforcement+agents+and+asked+for+ID.+He+showed+them+his+commercial+driver%E2%80%99s+license.+T hey+asked+him+for+more+ID.+He+told+them+%5B...%5D&media=news&topic=politics) http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/tweetthis.png (http://twitter.com/home?status=RT%20@COindependent%20-%20The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20certi ficate%C2%A0%20http://bit.ly/949d4L) By John Tomasic (http://coloradoindependent.com/author/johntomasic/) 4/26/10 7:00 AM
A Latino truck driver outside Phoenix was taken into custody by law enforcement at a weigh station. He pulled in to have the truck looked at, was apparently approached by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The truckdiver is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA.
The ICE agents said this was all just standard procedure. But the agents might just as well have been local police or highway patrol, who are now required by the controversial law Gov. Jan Brewer signed Friday (http://coloradoindependent.com/51976/arizona-gov-brewer-signs-harsh-immigration-laws-into-effect) to follow the same “standard procedure” and question individuals about their immigration status during routine stops. Welcome to the new Arizona, where there are sure to be whole websites dedicated to these kind of stories soon.

The original report from an Arizona KTVK TV news / website (http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html): http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210-200x115.png (http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210.png)
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He’s legit. It’s the first time it’s ever happened.”
Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.
Jackie says, “It doesn’t feel like it’s a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”
A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.
Arizona now has the toughest immigration-related laws in the country, making it a state crime to be in the country without the proper visa. The new law has raised howls from civil rights groups for putting the onus on local police to enforce laws tougher than federal immigration statutes. Immigration and rights activists argue the law is a misguided reaction (http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/arizona-immigration-law-threatens-civil-rights-and-public-safety-says-aclu) to admittedly major security and trafficking problems on the border (http://coloradoindependent.com/50506/tancredo-calls-on-napolitano-to-resign-in-wake-of-rancher-murder). They say the new state law is an unconstitutional and anti-American recipe for racial profiling abuses that will create divisions and heighten the reluctance of Latino community members to seek police assistance even for everyday matters of security and law enforcement.

Sounds like a manufactured story.

[Terribilis]

Well, I certainly didn't see this coming.
Supposedly the issue was that his mother was on vacation in Mexico. That is the WRONG answer. You DO NOT vacation in Mexico.

[Terribilis]

Sounds like a manufactured story.
why?

[The_Doctor10]

You guys don't have the same freedom of speech laws that we do. Often times when someone says anything controversial in Canada these days your overly PC culture calls it hate speech and shuts it down. I like Canada and find most Canadians to be good people but don't get on your high horse. Just pay your GST/VAT tax and STFU and STFD and enjoy your socialist lite (but friendly) country.

...Link? We have hate speech laws... Which aren't unreasonable. What exactly are you referring to?

[The_Doctor10]

Supposedly the issue was that his mother was on vacation in Mexico. That is the WRONG answer. You DO NOT vacation in Mexico.

Why the fuck else would you go to Mexico?

[Terribilis]

Why the **** else would you go to Mexico?
/sarcasm

[The_Doctor10]

/sarcasm

Ahhhh... my bad

[vailpass]

Immigration and Customs Enforcement [/B]agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The truckdiver is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA.
The ICE agents said this was all just standard procedure. But the agents might just as well have been local police or highway patrol, who are now required by the [. Welcome to the new Arizona, where there are sure to be whole websites dedicated to these kind of stories soon.

The original report from an Arizona KTVK TV news / website (http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html): http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210-200x115.png (http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210.png)
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He’s legit. It’s the first time it’s ever happened.”
Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.
Jackie says, “It doesn’t feel like it’s a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”
A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.
Arizona now has the toughest immigration-related laws in the country, making it a state crime to be in the country without the proper visa. The new law has raised howls from civil rights groups for putting the onus on local police to enforce laws tougher than federal immigration statutes. Immigration and rights activists argue the law is a misguided reaction (http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/arizona-immigration-law-threatens-civil-rights-and-public-safety-says-aclu) to admittedly major security and trafficking problems on the border (http://coloradoindependent.com/50506/tancredo-calls-on-napolitano-to-resign-in-wake-of-rancher-murder). They say the new state law is an unconstitutional and anti-American recipe for racial profiling abuses that will create divisions and heighten the reluctance of Latino community members to seek police assistance even for everyday matters of security and law enforcement.

You do realize that this was ICE, not AZ right?

[ChiefaRoo]

why?

It's got all the drama doesn't it. Mean old ICE Cops, innocent hard working guy and his quivering and teary eyed wife.

The cops made a mistake. It happens. There is no reason why it needs to turn into a soap opera. The local tv station hyped up a simple mistake trying to make it look like a big deal.

I had a cop pull me over and lie to me two years ago, telling me my tail light was out. It wasn't. He did it just because I was leaving a part of town too late at night and he wanted to see if I was drinking. Cops do that. It's bullsh*t but it's not the end of the world.

[ChiefaRoo]

You do realize that this was ICE, not AZ right?

I was going to say the same thing but wanted to look it up first. ICE doesn't follow the Arizona law. It's a non-sequiter.

[Terribilis]

You do realize that this was ICE, not AZ right?
I am not sure I understand your point

[Spott]

The jerseys will probably say Suns Loss after tonight.

[Valiant]

I'm fairly certain that it's been established that the color of your skin cannot alone constitute reasonable suspicion. And it wouldn't necessarily be any different in this case because while there are many more latino illegal immigrants in Arizona, there could also be illegal Canadians, Japanese, Chinese, Polish, etc. So I doubt that your appearance alone would be enough to constitute reasonable suspicion.

And as far as the impact of the bill, it's true that illegal immigrants don't have the rights of citizens, but you also have to consider the impact this bill may have on people who are born here or who are otherwise here legally. Now if your appearance alone cannot constitute reasonable suspicion, then I doubt they will be negatively impacted much, but if the law results in more harassment or troubles for legal U.S. citizens, then I think it becomes problematic.


Yeah I guarantee if they are born here, they will be able to speak fucking English and explain they are a citizen perfectly fine.. The ones here legally on visas, will pop them fuckers out quick..

I think I have said in another thread.. I am all for giving out more working visas and making those that want to become Americans a better chance.. Every other fucker caught here, gets a gps tracking chip, like animals can get embedded somewhere in their body and shipped back to Mexico..

[vailpass]

I am not sure I understand your point

Thanks for being honest. Many who comment on the AZ immigration law don't understand either.
ICE is Immigration & Customs Enforcement, the division that was/is empowered by the Federal govt. to arrest and detain illegals.

What is described in that article is what ICE has always done, the passing of SB1070 has absolutely NOTHING to do with ICE's actions.

This is sensationalist journalism with quotes such as "The ICE agents said this was all just standard procedure. But the agents might just as well have been local police or highway patrol...."

[Terribilis]

Thanks for being honest. Many who comment on the AZ immigration law don't understand either.
ICE is Immigration & Customs Enforcement, the division that was/is empowered by the Federal govt. to arrest and detain illegals.

What is described in that article is what ICE has always done, the passing of SB1070 has absolutely NOTHING to do with ICE's actions.

This is sensationalist journalism with quotes such as "The ICE agents said this was all just standard procedure. But the agents might just as well have been local police or highway patrol...."
Fair point...will definitely consider ICE when processing these stories.

[Mr. Laz]

http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate (http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate)

<script type="text/javascript"> digg_url = 'http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate'; digg_title = 'The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate'; digg_window = 'new'; </script> http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/diggthis.png (http://digg.com/submit?url=http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate&title=The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20ce rtificate&bodytext=A+Latino+truck+driver+outside+Phoenix+was+taken+into+custody+by+law+enforcement+at+a+weigh+ station.+He+pulled+in+to+have+the+truck+looked+at%2C+was+apparently+approached+by+Immigration+and+Cu stoms+Enforcement+agents+and+asked+for+ID.+He+showed+them+his+commercial+driver%E2%80%99s+license.+T hey+asked+him+for+more+ID.+He+told+them+%5B...%5D&media=news&topic=politics) http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/tweetthis.png (http://twitter.com/home?status=RT%20@COindependent%20-%20The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20certi ficate%C2%A0%20http://bit.ly/949d4L) By John Tomasic (http://coloradoindependent.com/author/johntomasic/) 4/26/10 7:00 AM
A Latino truck driver outside Phoenix was taken into custody by law enforcement at a weigh station. He pulled in to have the truck looked at, was apparently approached by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The truckdiver is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA.
The ICE agents said this was all just standard procedure. But the agents might just as well have been local police or highway patrol, who are now required by the controversial law Gov. Jan Brewer signed Friday (http://coloradoindependent.com/51976/arizona-gov-brewer-signs-harsh-immigration-laws-into-effect) to follow the same “standard procedure” and question individuals about their immigration status during routine stops. Welcome to the new Arizona, where there are sure to be whole websites dedicated to these kind of stories soon.

The original report from an Arizona KTVK TV news / website (http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html): http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210-200x115.png (http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210.png)
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He’s legit. It’s the first time it’s ever happened.”
Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.
Jackie says, “It doesn’t feel like it’s a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”
A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.
Arizona now has the toughest immigration-related laws in the country, making it a state crime to be in the country without the proper visa. The new law has raised howls from civil rights groups for putting the onus on local police to enforce laws tougher than federal immigration statutes. Immigration and rights activists argue the law is a misguided reaction (http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/arizona-immigration-law-threatens-civil-rights-and-public-safety-says-aclu) to admittedly major security and trafficking problems on the border (http://coloradoindependent.com/50506/tancredo-calls-on-napolitano-to-resign-in-wake-of-rancher-murder). They say the new state law is an unconstitutional and anti-American recipe for racial profiling abuses that will create divisions and heighten the reluctance of Latino community members to seek police assistance even for everyday matters of security and law enforcement.
they need to find a faster way to ID people ... like SS# lookup with photo so they can do the ID on the spot.

i got no problem with the main idea of what happened though

[kstater]

they need to find a faster way to ID people ... like SS# lookup with photo so they can do the ID on the spot.

i got no problem with the main idea of what happened though

Kind of like a drivers license?

[Mr. Laz]

Kind of like a drivers license?something that can't be faked. Fake ID's are a dime a dozen.

surely it wouldn't be too hard to have a laptop with database for verification purposes. Ask for ID ... go back to laptop in vehicle and verify, then let them move on or arrest them.

Cops usually do some kind of verification for regular traffic stops all the time.


when the cop ran my ID for running with my fog lights instead of headlights should of cried "profiling"!!!

[The_Doctor10]

something that can't be faked. Fake ID's are a dime a dozen.

surely it wouldn't be too hard to have a laptop with database for verification purposes. Ask for ID ... go back to laptop in vehicle and verify, then let them move on or arrest them.

Cops usually do some kind of verification for regular traffic stops all the time.

So how would you fake the ID, yet also have it show up in the database?

Something like that would pass when you're getting into a bar, but if you actually did any real digging at all, it'd come up as phony. Remember, we're talking about illegal aliens who make their livings cleaning toilets and cutting grass, not members of the Mendellin Cartel who have resources to buy legit fake IDs.

[Mr. Laz]

So how would you fake the ID, yet also have it show up in the database?

Something like that would pass when you're getting into a bar, but if you actually did any real digging at all, it'd come up as phony. Remember, we're talking about illegal aliens who make their livings cleaning toilets and cutting grass, not members of the Mendellin Cartel who have resources to buy legit fake IDs.a fake ID wouldn't show up correctly on the database ... that's the point.

you check ID ... then you verify ID on the computer ... then you let them go.

no need for taking them down to the station or all that time wasting crap.

[kstater]

a fake ID wouldn't show up correctly on the database ... that's the point.

you check ID ... then you verify ID on the computer ... then you let them go.

no need for taking them down to the station or all that time wasting crap.

You realize this system is already in place. Your DL is not solely a piece of plastic.

[SPATCH]

Peeks in to see if the thread should be moved to DC. Confirms. Leaves.

[Mr. Laz]

You realize this system is already in place. Your DL is not solely a piece of plastic.
didn't i just say the cops use system to run ID when they do traffic stops?

in the middle of freakin kansas they run ID's all the time, so yes the system is in place already.

apparently these ICE guys don't have access to that system or one of their own of they could of verified this guy's ID without taking him down to the station or calling for his birth certificate.

[kstater]

didn't i just say the cops use system to run ID when they do traffic stops?

in the middle of freakin kansas they run ID's all the time, so yes the system is in place already.

apparently these ICE guys don't have access to that system or one of their own of they could of verified this guy's ID without taking him down to the station or calling for his birth certificate.

What make you think these officers didn't have access to a CDL database?

[Mr. Laz]

What make you think these officers didn't have access to a CDL database?
well ... by reading the story for one

if they HAD access to it then they would of be able to get better verification of the guys ID through it than a birth certificate. The fact they they had to take the guy into the station indicated that they don't have any kind of real database access. Birth Certificates really don't prove as much as database history with photo.

[el borracho]

No. Your broken English in a country that has English as its official language is your reason.

The United States does not have an official language.

From Wikipedia: "English is the de facto national language of the United States, with 82% of the population claiming it as a mother tongue, and some 96% claiming to speak it "well" or "very well".[3] However, no official language exists at the Federal level. There have been several proposals to make English the national language in amendments to immigration reform bills,[4][5] but none of these bills have become law with the amendment intact. The situation is quite varied at the State and Territorial levels, with some states mirroring the Federal policy of adopting no official language in a de jure capacity, others adopting English alone, others officially adopting English as well as local languages, and still others adopting a policy of de facto bilingualism."

[el borracho]

I don't buy this either. If a cop asks you for ID you have your Drivers License / State ID. You cant have either of those if you are an illegal alien. Done and done, no harrasment.

Again, cops aren't just gonna start approaching people cause they have a darker complexion and dark hair. If you get stopped for something else, you have to show your ID anyways, so whats the issue?

Are you serious with this?

[Psyko Tek]

WHO CARES THE
SUNS
WON

[el borracho]

So what's the problem?

The problem is that, while racial profiling is against the law, it will certainly occur. Police will invent reasons to detain people who look illegal which means a lot of legal people will be detained unnecessarily. Of course, that's already in practice so I'm not sure what real difference it will make.

[patteeu]

http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate (http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate)

<script type="text/javascript"> digg_url = 'http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate'; digg_title = 'The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate'; digg_window = 'new'; </script> http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/diggthis.png (http://digg.com/submit?url=http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate&title=The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20ce rtificate&bodytext=A+Latino+truck+driver+outside+Phoenix+was+taken+into+custody+by+law+enforcement+at+a+weigh+ station.+He+pulled+in+to+have+the+truck+looked+at%2C+was+apparently+approached+by+Immigration+and+Cu stoms+Enforcement+agents+and+asked+for+ID.+He+showed+them+his+commercial+driver%E2%80%99s+license.+T hey+asked+him+for+more+ID.+He+told+them+%5B...%5D&media=news&topic=politics) http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/themes/new-co-theme/images/tweetthis.png (http://twitter.com/home?status=RT%20@COindependent%20-%20The%20new%20birthers:%20Arizona%20truck%20driver%20arrested,%20forced%20to%20show%20birth%20certi ficate%C2%A0%20http://bit.ly/949d4L) By John Tomasic (http://coloradoindependent.com/author/johntomasic/) 4/26/10 7:00 AM
A Latino truck driver outside Phoenix was taken into custody by law enforcement at a weigh station. He pulled in to have the truck looked at, was apparently approached by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The truckdiver is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA.
The ICE agents said this was all just standard procedure. But the agents might just as well have been local police or highway patrol, who are now required by the controversial law Gov. Jan Brewer signed Friday (http://coloradoindependent.com/51976/arizona-gov-brewer-signs-harsh-immigration-laws-into-effect) to follow the same “standard procedure” and question individuals about their immigration status during routine stops. Welcome to the new Arizona, where there are sure to be whole websites dedicated to these kind of stories soon.

The original report from an Arizona KTVK TV news / website (http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html): http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210-200x115.png (http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-210.png)
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He’s legit. It’s the first time it’s ever happened.”
Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.
Jackie says, “It doesn’t feel like it’s a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”
A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.
Arizona now has the toughest immigration-related laws in the country, making it a state crime to be in the country without the proper visa. The new law has raised howls from civil rights groups for putting the onus on local police to enforce laws tougher than federal immigration statutes. Immigration and rights activists argue the law is a misguided reaction (http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/arizona-immigration-law-threatens-civil-rights-and-public-safety-says-aclu) to admittedly major security and trafficking problems on the border (http://coloradoindependent.com/50506/tancredo-calls-on-napolitano-to-resign-in-wake-of-rancher-murder). They say the new state law is an unconstitutional and anti-American recipe for racial profiling abuses that will create divisions and heighten the reluctance of Latino community members to seek police assistance even for everyday matters of security and law enforcement.

What do the actions of these feds have to do with the new state law?

[Duck Dog]

English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

[fan4ever]

Peeks in to see if the thread should be moved to DC. Confirms. Leaves.

Hey, I started this same topic in DC yesterday and got little to no action; go figure.

[JohnnyV13]

There is one problem here though, your analogy isn't quite on point.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you have to show your license, but it was the speeding that got you pulled over.

Under the AZ law, you can get stopped merely for appearing illegal.

Now - ultimately I'm of the mind that, as an illegal immegrant, you have no rights under our Constitution and as such, tough shit. But you have to at least compare apples to apples. You being asked to show your license after speeding is not comparable to being asked to show your license because you were walking down the sidewalk lookin' all Mexican and stuff.


No. You are incorrect. According to the statute, the police must have made the stop on "other lawful business" before they can engage in an immigration inquiry.

The intent is to enable police to simply be able to inquire about immigration status when its blatantly obvious they could be dealing with an illegal.

Just speaking with an accent and looking latino aren't going to be enough, because you'd be stopping half the people in tucson. But, if a cop pulls over a vehicle for a traffic violation, and you have a trailer full of people who don't speak english, are loaded down with personal possessions and look like they've been walking across the desert, well maybe it would be reasonable to let him inquire about immigration staus.

The border patrol here receive regular training how to avoid racial profiling in their work, simply because race is not a sufficiently indicative factor to make such stops worth the time. Tuscon police will presumably receive training from the same attorneys who train the border patrol.

One side benefit is you might be able to deport suspected low level drug trafficers if you can inquire about their immigration status, but don't have enough evidence to pursue some kind of drug bust.

[JohnnyV13]

So how would you fake the ID, yet also have it show up in the database?

Something like that would pass when you're getting into a bar, but if you actually did any real digging at all, it'd come up as phony. Remember, we're talking about illegal aliens who make their livings cleaning toilets and cutting grass, not members of the Mendellin Cartel who have resources to buy legit fake IDs.

Actually, it would be quite easy here. A couple of years ago, Tucson had to fire over half their MVD workers due to a widespread ring where state workers sold state issued drivers' licenses and state IDs to illegals.

Such a person's ID would show up in the database.

[FlaChief58]

"However intended, the result of passing the law is that our basic principles of equal rights and protection under the law are being called into question," he said, "and Arizona's already struggling economy will suffer even further setbacks at a time when the state can ill-afford them."


Not if they take 90 percent of your paycheck.

Those who are here illegally have no rights under our constitution. Our country is being attacked by these people who break our laws and bankrupt our states by using services meant for legal americans. If it means carrying a couple of papers to prove I belong here, I don't have a problem with it

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Todays paper showed a Mexican-American in the crowd at the game holding a sign that said "Play Ball, Not Politics".

Most of the Mexi-'Merican citizens here want those fuckers gone too.